Ruby Ridge 20 years later

[olevetonahill]

It sure as hell seems longer to me for some reason. The events that took place that day had their start several years before over a Land dispute between Weaver and a Neighbor. Weaver won in court the neighbor went to reporting Randy for anything and everything to the FBT down to the local cops.

This is exactly why Myself and a hell of a lot of other people dont trust the Government.

we are only free as long as they let us be that way

Well Yall read about it if ya want, make up yer own mind
Ive been convinced for years that Randy Weaver was set up. His wife and Son killed for no good reason
Some think Clinton was a Great Pres, I think he went way to far with this and Waco

JMHO

Ruby_Ridge Ruby_Ridge

[SanJoaquinSooner]

But who's going to shed a tear for Nazis and pedophiles?

[olevetonahill]

But who's going to shed a tear for Nazis and pedophiles?


Are you saying Randy Weaver was those things?

[diverdog]

Are you saying Randy Weaver was those things?

Weaver was a member of a white supremist church affiliated with the neo nazi movement. There were pedophiles in the Branch Davidian movement.

[olevetonahill]

Weaver was a member of a white supremist church affiliated with the neo nazi movement. There were pedophiles in the Branch Davidian movement.

I aint talkin the Waco **** here

Show me where RW was a Member of anything?
He was railroaded into being a Narc which he refused to do. Then He was twisted into being a CI which he again refused to do thats when they went after him .

Klinton and his Bitch then went after the Idjits at waco

[SicEmBaylor]

But who's going to shed a tear for Nazis and pedophiles?

Whether Weaver was or was not is beside the point. Even people like Nazis deserve to live free the way they choose especially on their own land so long as they aren't harming anyone else.

It's a little more complicated in the case of Koresh, but they didn't show up there to arrest him for charges of pedophilia. And, in any case, jack booted gestapo thugs disguised as ATF agents are responsible for the death of innocent men, women, and children who had nothing to do with what Koresh may have been personally responsible for.

[olevetonahill]

Whether Weaver was or was not is beside the point. Even people like Nazis deserve to live free the way they choose especially on their own land so long as they aren't harming anyone else.

It's a little more complicated in the case of Koresh, but they didn't show up there to arrest him for charges of pedophilia. And, in any case, jack booted gestapo thugs disguised as ATF agents are responsible for the death of innocent men, women, and children who had nothing to do with what Koresh may have been personally responsible for.

Sic gets it
They had a weapons deal On Koresh er how ever ya spell it

Every Cop in that County said all theyn had to do was Catch him walkin down the the steets of Waco and Pick him up

No The Fed Pigs WANTED inside that compound and they got there
A lot of Innocents idiots died But By Gawd the Feds Got in

[okie52]

Sic gets it
They had a weapons deal On Koresh er how ever ya spell it

Every Cop in that County said all theyn had to do was Catch him walkin down the the steets of Waco and Pick him up

No The Fed Pigs WANTED inside that compound and they got there
A lot of Innocents idiots died But By Gawd the Feds Got in

And a lot of innocents died in OKC because of Waco.

[ictsooner7]

It sure as hell seems longer to me for some reason. The events that took place that day had their start several years before over a Land dispute between Weaver and a Neighbor. Weaver won in court the neighbor went to reporting Randy for anything and everything to the FBT down to the local cops.

This is exactly why Myself and a hell of a lot of other people dont trust the Government.

we are only free as long as they let us be that way

Well Yall read about it if ya want, make up yer own mind
Ive been convinced for years that Randy Weaver was set up. His wife and Son killed for no good reason
Some think Clinton was a Great Pres, I think he went way to far with this and Waco

JMHO

Ruby_Ridge Ruby_Ridge


You are way off base here on these two. What happened to following the rule of law? Respecting authority? If this was a black guy in watts you’d be saying do what the cops say or you are going to get shot.


You brought up Waco and the pedophile, HE let those kids be killed. That was not on the government, it was on HIM.

[SicEmBaylor]

You are way off base here on these two. What happened to following the rule of law? Respecting authority? If this was a black guy in watts you’d be saying do what the cops say or you are going to get shot.


You brought up Waco and the pedophile, HE let those kids be killed. That was not on the government, it was on HIM.

No. Responsibility rests squarely with the government for the deaths of those people. The ATF was there to execute a search warrant that should never have been issued in the first place. That search warrant was absolute bull**** -- it was based on a suspicion that the Davidians may be modifying legallyobtained firearms. That is an extremely thin excuse to get a search warrant. What makes it even worse is that the ATF showed up like the 2nd Panzer Division entering Poland.

I'm not going to try to justify the actions of the Davidians, but from their point of view they had done absolutely nothing wrong and broken no laws and all of a sudden people start swarming their home with weapons. Regardless of what you may think of the Branch Davidians, the government monumentally screwed up. The McClennan County Sheriff knew Koresh quite well, and all the government had to do was take a couple of guys along with the Sheriff to calmly knock on the door and execute the search warrant. I truly believe that if they had approached that differently then there never would have been a siege.

And then don't get me started on bringing in military help from Ft. Hood and circling the place with tanks. Tanks...for the love of God this used to be America.

[SicEmBaylor]

I swear if I were President and had the political support -- I would defund the ATF; fire everyone in the agency running them completely out of government; personally fire every ATF agent and ensure they never ever had a law enforcement job again either on the Federal, State, or local level; and then, gleefully, I would bulldoze the ATF's HQ.

[rock on sooner]

I swear if I were President and had the political support -- I would defund the ATF; fire everyone in the agency running them completely out of government; personally fire every ATF agent and ensure they never ever had a law enforcement job again either on the Federal, State, or local level; and then, gleefully, I would bulldoze the ATF's HQ.

I understand your anger and resentment of the organization but
how would you propose to do the work that is legitimately needed
to protect the citizenry?

[SicEmBaylor]

I understand your anger and resentment of the organization but
how would you propose to do the work that is legitimately needed
to protect the citizenry?
There is absolutely no reason for the ATF to exist -- the laws they enforce ought not exist. They're not keeping anyone safe...quite the opposite really. Of all Federal law enforcement agencies, the ATF is the biggest threat to liberty.

[rock on sooner]

There is absolutely no reason for the ATF to exist -- the laws they enforce ought not exist. They're not keeping anyone safe...quite the opposite really. Of all Federal law enforcement agencies, the ATF is the biggest threat to liberty.

I take from what you say then that you're okay with whoever has
the most guns will run the show, 'cause that's what would happen, IMO.
Could be one definition for anarchy, heck, that even bears resemblance
to what our guys/gals in Afghanistan are dealing with.

I agree that some of what the ATF does is heavy handed but, really,
SicEm, there has to be some rules for everyone to follow.

[ictsooner7]

No. Responsibility rests squarely with the government for the deaths of those people. The ATF was there to execute a search warrant that should never have been issued in the first place. That search warrant was absolute bull**** -- it was based on a suspicion that the Davidians may be modifying legallyobtained firearms. That is an extremely thin excuse to get a search warrant. What makes it even worse is that the ATF showed up like the 2nd Panzer Division entering Poland.

I'm not going to try to justify the actions of the Davidians, but from their point of view they had done absolutely nothing wrong and broken no laws and all of a sudden people start swarming their home with weapons. Regardless of what you may think of the Branch Davidians, the government monumentally screwed up. The McClennan County Sheriff knew Koresh quite well, and all the government had to do was take a couple of guys along with the Sheriff to calmly knock on the door and execute the search warrant. I truly believe that if they had approached that differently then there never would have been a siege.

And then don't get me started on bringing in military help from Ft. Hood and circling the place with tanks. Tanks...for the love of God this used to be America.

This thread tells me everything I need to about you and olevetonahill, you two are mentally ill.

[olevetonahill]

This thread tells me everything I need to about you and olevetonahill, you two are mentally ill.

http://cl.jroo.me/z3/j/w/C/d/a.aaa-I-Am-Not-Insane-I-Just-Look-.jpg

[SicEmBaylor]

I take from what you say then that you're okay with whoever has
the most guns will run the show, 'cause that's what would happen, IMO.
Could be one definition for anarchy, heck, that even bears resemblance
to what our guys/gals in Afghanistan are dealing with.

I agree that some of what the ATF does is heavy handed but, really,
SicEm, there has to be some rules for everyone to follow.

That comparison is absolute nonsense. The Branch Davidians were not harming anyone or anyone else's property aside from what Koresh was doing within the cult but that has nothing to do with guns. Had they ever harmed anyone with their guns? Did they destroy property? Were they rambling around Waco shooting at passersby? No reasonable person in Waco believed that the Branch Davidains posed any sort of danger to the general society.

Here's a thought -- let's punish people, severely, for crimes they actually commit against other people or property. Instead of having a nation of "pre-crime" laws, let's have a nation that allows the individual the maximum amount of liberty until they trespass against others. The difference between us and the Afghans is that we have a greater respect for the life, liberty, and property of others. Expanding gun ownership and gun rights is not going to turn these United States into some sort of lawless Afghan-like society. That's absolute and total nonsense.

[SicEmBaylor]

This thread tells me everything I need to about you and olevetonahill, you two are mentally ill.
I can't begin to tell you what that means to me.

[jk the sooner fan]

i DGAF about Randy Weaver or Ruby Ridge

but to say that people died at Waco BECAUSE of the Government - takes any personal responsibility off of those people for living in a compound in a manner that they did

they chose to live there - they chose to ignore what most would not..they allowed their children to be subjected to a horrible existence

yes the ATF wanted the HAND GRENADES, et a (i.e. ILLEGAL guns)l- but do you really think that had they arrested Koresh at the grocery store in Waco - that they wouldnt have been met with the same type of resistance when they went to search the compound?

if you're of the "anti-government" ilk - so be it - but at least recognize the level of personal responsibility the people on the other side of the fence have in their own outcome

[SicEmBaylor]

i DGAF about Randy Weaver or Ruby Ridge

but to say that people died at Waco BECAUSE of the Government - takes any personal responsibility off of those people for living in a compound in a manner that they did

they chose to live there - they chose to ignore what most would not..they allowed their children to be subjected to a horrible existence

yes the ATF wanted the HAND GRENADES, et a (i.e. ILLEGAL guns)l- but do you really think that had they arrested Koresh at the grocery store in Waco - that they wouldnt have been met with the same type of resistance when they went to search the compound?

if you're of the "anti-government" ilk - so be it - but at least recognize the level of personal responsibility the people on the other side of the fence have in their own outcome
Of course they share some responsibility for what happened. They are responsible for the fact that they forcibly resisted the search warrant, and they're responsible for allowing Koresh to do what he did to the underage girls. However, the latter issue is not why the ATF was there and it was not the subject of the search warrant.

And, yes, I absolutely believe that if they had let local law enforcement handle it at the "front end" then things would have turned out very very differently. Koresh had a good relationship with local law enforcement. Having people he knew show up on the property likely would have turned out much better than the black helicopters and the legion of black-clad SWAT agents that handled the issue like they were gestapo agents raiding the Warsaw ghetto.

It was totally uncalled for, unnecessary, and ultimately fatal for a lot of people that absolutely did not deserve to die like they did regardless of how crazy their cult was. Crazy people have a right to exist and live freely. Crazy people have a right to join a cult and live in a compound with a guy who is nuttier than a can of cashews. But that does not give the government the right to behave in the way that it did.

I find it interesting that we had a number of these incidents during the Clinton administration. Ruby Ridge, Waco, Emilo Gonzales, militias, etc. etc. It's funny how not one incident like this ever took place during the Bush administration. It ultimately boils down to a President, AG, and a Federal law enforcement agency that had a hard-on for right-wing groups and extreme religious organizations.

[jkjsooner]

And then don't get me started on bringing in military help from Ft. Hood and circling the place with tanks. Tanks...for the love of God this used to be America.

How do you suggest the FBI handle the situation when there is a standoff and those inside the compound are heavily armed? If you are going to behave as a warrior then you should expect such a response.

If I'm an FBI agent I'm not volunteering to get gunned down just because some libertarian thinks tanks should never be used in domestic issues.

If these were military tanks then I guess you have a point. I'd heard they were FBI tanks. Either way, the FBI should have tanks for just this purpose.

Whatever happened to cause the fire is regrettable and mistakes were made on both sides. Mi stakes happen in such a unique and tense situation.

Let's also not forget that a f'ing moron in local police department tipped off the media who inadvertently tipped off the Davidians. Had that not happened there most likely would not have been the initial standoff. That police officer should still be rotting in jail.

[ictsooner7]

Of course they share some responsibility for what happened. They are responsible for the fact that they forcibly resisted the search warrant, and they're responsible for allowing Koresh to do what he did to the underage girls. However, the latter issue is not why the ATF was there and it was not the subject of the search warrant.

And, yes, I absolutely believe that if they had let local law enforcement handle it at the "front end" then things would have turned out very very differently. Koresh had a good relationship with local law enforcement. Having people he knew show up on the property likely would have turned out much better than the black helicopters and the legion of black-clad SWAT agents that handled the issue like they were gestapo agents raiding the Warsaw ghetto.

It was totally uncalled for, unnecessary, and ultimately fatal for a lot of people that absolutely did not deserve to die like they did regardless of how crazy their cult was. Crazy people have a right to exist and live freely. Crazy people have a right to join a cult and live in a compound with a guy who is nuttier than a can of cashews. But that does not give the government the right to behave in the way that it did.

I find it interesting that we had a number of these incidents during the Clinton administration. Ruby Ridge, Waco, Emilo Gonzales, militias, etc. etc. It's funny how not one incident like this ever took place during the Bush administration. It ultimately boils down to a President, AG, and a Federal law enforcement agency that had a hard-on for right-wing groups and extreme religious organizations.

Could it be that the right ran around talking about how clinton wasn't legitimately the president because he was a draft dodger or didn’t get a majority of the vote? Could it be the right talking about how they gonna take our guns?

[ictsooner7]

Funny how it was ok when Rodney King got beat for resisting arrest, but these guys “negotiate” for 51 days then law enforcement takes the compound by force it’s a problem.

[jk the sooner fan]

Of course they share some responsibility for what happened. They are responsible for the fact that they forcibly resisted the search warrant, and they're responsible for allowing Koresh to do what he did to the underage girls. However, the latter issue is not why the ATF was there and it was not the subject of the search warrant.

And, yes, I absolutely believe that if they had let local law enforcement handle it at the "front end" then things would have turned out very very differently. Koresh had a good relationship with local law enforcement. Having people he knew show up on the property likely would have turned out much better than the black helicopters and the legion of black-clad SWAT agents that handled the issue like they were gestapo agents raiding the Warsaw ghetto.

It was totally uncalled for, unnecessary, and ultimately fatal for a lot of people that absolutely did not deserve to die like they did regardless of how crazy their cult was. Crazy people have a right to exist and live freely. Crazy people have a right to join a cult and live in a compound with a guy who is nuttier than a can of cashews. But that does not give the government the right to behave in the way that it did.

I find it interesting that we had a number of these incidents during the Clinton administration. Ruby Ridge, Waco, Emilo Gonzales, militias, etc. etc. It's funny how not one incident like this ever took place during the Bush administration. It ultimately boils down to a President, AG, and a Federal law enforcement agency that had a hard-on for right-wing groups and extreme religious organizations.

the waco pd and/or McClennan County SO had no jurisdiction in the matter - lets remember how this whole thing started - Koresh was getting hand grenades sent to him thru the mail.

i was at the Fort Hood CID office during all of this - personally know several of the agents involved - including one of the dead

we can sit and armchair quarterback the raid all we want - hindsight being 20/20.....there were definitely mistakes made - but once the raid went badly - and the stand off began - those inside made it clear they had no designs of ever complying with any laws.......they made their bed

[SicEmBaylor]

How do you suggest the FBI handle the situation when there is a standoff and those inside the compound are heavily armed?
The standoff was the result of the initial raid attempt by the ATF. The FBI had to get involved because of the ATF cluster****. I don't fault the FBI -- they did what they had to do once the situation escalated. The FBI, in fact, was split between hardliners and moderates. The moderates were very level headed about the situation and were adamantly opposed to the use of tanks.


If I'm an FBI agent I'm not volunteering to get gunned down just because some libertarian thinks tanks should never be used in domestic issues.Well, any right thinking American should not believe that tanks should be used in a domestic situation like this. The use of military hardware against citizens is so contrary to our founding principles and reasonable patriotic sensibilities that it should frighten every American to their very core.

And it isn't just libertarians that believe military tanks shouldn't be used -- it happens to be the law.


If these were military tanks then I guess you have a point. I'd heard they were FBI tanks. Either way, the FBI should have tanks for just this purpose.
The tanks were Army hardware they brought up from Ft. Hood. The army sent "advisers" to Waco to teach Federal law enforcement how to operate the hardware. This daftly skirted the law, but I have my suspicion that some military took some direct role in the siege.


Whatever happened to cause the fire is regrettable and mistakes were made on both sides. Mi stakes happen in such a unique and tense situation.
I'd call the death of that many innocent people to be more than a mistake -- it was a tragedy. When that many people die just to execute a search warrant on such flimsy grounds then it becomes a tragedy.


Let's also not forget that a f'ing moron in local police department tipped off the media who inadvertently tipped off the Davidians. Had that not happened there most likely would not have been the initial standoff. That police officer should still be rotting in jail.
This goes back to how the ATF decided to execute the search warrant. If they had just sent a couple of agents to the county courthouse and asked the Sheriff to escort them out there (quietly and without fanfare) then things would have been different. I'm as certain of that as any person could be.

[SicEmBaylor]

the waco pd and/or McClennan County SO had no jurisdiction in the matter - lets remember how this whole thing started - Koresh was getting hand grenades sent to him thru the mail.

i was at the Fort Hood CID office during all of this - personally know several of the agents involved - including one of the dead

we can sit and armchair quarterback the raid all we want - hindsight being 20/20.....there were definitely mistakes made - but once the raid went badly - and the stand off began - those inside made it clear they had no designs of ever complying with any laws.......they made their bed

Of course it isn't the local's jurisdiction, but is it not common for Federal law enforcement to involve local law enforcement? And, besides that, I'm not even saying it should have been local law enforcement that actually executed the search warrant -- I'm just saying the Sheriff and some local guys known to Koresh should have escorted a modest number of ATF agents out there so as not to spook the Davidians. That is not unreasonable and makes absolute sense but of course this is the Federal government we're talking about and a Justice Department run by Janet Reno.

[jk the sooner fan]

actually you are wrong on the tanks

1. they weren't tanks
2. they were tracked vehicles - that probably looked like tanks to the untrained eye - but they were actually "tracked recovery vehicles"
3. the vehicles used were not from Fort Hood - because of the Posse Comitatus Act......they were however National Guard vehicles



i completely disagree with your assertion that things would have been different had they gone out with the Sheriff....i think that's as ignorant a belief as can be.....it's pure fantasy and comes from hard feelings over the whole thing and this belief by the locals that "we could have done it better" - those comments were self serving and to overlook the motivation behind those comments is also ignorant of the politics involved

[jk the sooner fan]

Of course it isn't the local's jurisdiction, but is it not common for Federal law enforcement to involve local law enforcement? And, besides that, I'm not even saying it should have been local law enforcement that actually executed the search warrant -- I'm just saying the Sheriff and some local guys known to Koresh should have escorted a modest number of ATF agents out there so as not to spook the Davidians. That is not unreasonable and makes absolute sense but of course this is the Federal government we're talking about and a Justice Department run by Janet Reno.

not really all that common for the feds to involve other agencies on search warrants

i'm not saying it never happens - but it's an exception rather than the rule

[SicEmBaylor]

Could it be that the right ran around talking about how clinton wasn't legitimately the president because he was a draft dodger or didn’t get a majority of the vote? Could it be the right talking about how they gonna take our guns?
Is any of that illegal and reason to send Federal agents on large scale raids and execute search/arrest warrants? For the love of God...if people think those things they are absolutely well within their right to do so. Seriously, what is wrong with you? I hope to God you weren't one of these people complaining about the loss of liberty during the Bush administration -- those people who do are absolutely right but in your case it would be a startling example of hypocrisy.

[jkjsooner]

That comparison is absolute nonsense. The Branch Davidians were not harming anyone or anyone else's property aside from what Koresh was doing within the cult but that has nothing to do with guns. Had they ever harmed anyone with their guns? Did they destroy property? Were they rambling around Waco shooting at passersby? No reasonable person in Waco believed that the Branch Davidains posed any sort of danger to the general society.

The problem with this argument is that the Branch Dividians did kill people. They killed the ATF officers.

You can say what you want about the reasons behind the initial raid and whether it could have been handled differently but the moment the Davidians started shooting at federal officers they've lost any kind of moral authority.

We have courts to administer justice and handle grievances. We do not have a right to decide when law enforcement have overstepped their bounds. Lots of police officers die every year because someone thought that the officers overstepped their bounds.

You can talk all you want about tyrannical governments but no government is going to stand aside and say, "You know what? We were wrong and our officers deserved to get shot by you. We're sorry."

For those who feel their gun is to protect them from a tyrannical government, they've never once been able to explain exactly when fighting back is justified. If you do it you better hope a lot of people agree with you. We sure as hell don't give the benefit of the doubt to most people who have had clashes with government forces.

[KantoSooner]

Good Lord! This old crap again? Here's an idea: if/when an officer of the law tells you to stop, that you're under arrest, try stopping and submitting to arrest. We seem to have umpteen groups and orgs (the ACLU, for instance) who'll be flying rock star legal talent in to make the gubment's life hell if they lack justification for arresting you.
I'm pretty libertarian, but simple common sense tells me that you don't pick a fight with a guy who going to win. And simple reading of the daily papers satisfy me that, insane delusion notwithstanding, I can get justice in this country by playing according to the rules.
Those of you who seem to support armed resistance are playing with fire and need to go have a nice cold beer and calm down.

[jk the sooner fan]

Good Lord! This old crap again? Here's an idea: if/when an officer of the law tells you to stop, that you're under arrest, try stopping and submitting to arrest. We seem to have umpteen groups and orgs (the ACLU, for instance) who'll be flying rock star legal talent in to make the gubment's life hell if they lack justification for arresting you.
I'm pretty libertarian, but simple common sense tells me that you don't pick a fight with a guy who going to win. And simple reading of the daily papers satisfy me that, insane delusion notwithstanding, I can get justice in this country by playing according to the rules.
Those of you who seem to support armed resistance are playing with fire and need to go have a nice cold beer and calm down.

precisely

[SicEmBaylor]

Good Lord! This old crap again? Here's an idea: if/when an officer of the law tells you to stop, that you're under arrest, try stopping and submitting to arrest. We seem to have umpteen groups and orgs (the ACLU, for instance) who'll be flying rock star legal talent in to make the gubment's life hell if they lack justification for arresting you.
I'm pretty libertarian, but simple common sense tells me that you don't pick a fight with a guy who going to win. And simple reading of the daily papers satisfy me that, insane delusion notwithstanding, I can get justice in this country by playing according to the rules.
Those of you who seem to support armed resistance are playing with fire and need to go have a nice cold beer and calm down.

I'm pretty much in agreement with this. I'm sure as hell not justifying their armed resistance to the search warrant. That part of the issue was utterly and totally insane.

[jkjsooner]

Koresh had a good relationship with local law enforcement. Having people he knew show up on the property likely would have turned out much better than the black helicopters and the legion of black-clad SWAT agents that handled the issue like they were gestapo agents raiding the Warsaw ghetto.

Of course they did. The local law enforcement practically tipped off the Davidians about the raid. I trust the Waco police department about as far as I can spit.

Assuming you are talking about the initial ATF raid, let's be honest it was no different than the raids local SWAT teams do on a daily basis. I don't see you complaining about their tactics here.

The fact is that you dislike the laws that the ATF are enforcing. That's perfectly fine but your complaints about the tactics they use scream hypocrisy.

[SicEmBaylor]

Of course they did. The local law enforcement practically tipped off the Davidians about the raid. I trust the Waco police department about as far as I can spit.

Assuming you are talking about the initial ATF raid, let's be honest it was no different than the raids local SWAT teams do on a daily basis. I don't see you complaining about their tactics here.

The fact is that you dislike the laws that the ATF are enforcing. That's perfectly fine but your complaints about the tactics they use scream hypocrisy.
It was the county Sheriff's Dept. not the local PD. Waco PD is inept. The fact they tipped them off ahead of time just shows the degree of trust between them and proves my point. They should have had the locals escort a very small number of agents out there.

As for routine SWAT raids...I don't like most of them either. I definitely could sit around and complain about them. For example, there was that case a few months ago where a fully armed SWAT team raided the wrong home and shot the family's dog. And why were they raiding in the first place? They got a tip that the house was growing pot...that's it! Some pot plants! :smh: You could say that was an isolated incident, but it's becoming increasingly more common.

[jkjsooner]

The standoff was the result of the initial raid attempt by the ATF. The FBI had to get involved because of the ATF cluster****. I don't fault the FBI -- they did what they had to do once the situation escalated.

I don't need you to explain to me the sequence of events. You're the one who mentioned the tanks. The ATF did not have tanks. They were brought in long after the FBI took charge.


Well, any right thinking American should not believe that tanks should be used in a domestic situation like this.

I'm confused. I thought you didn't fault the FBI...

And this wasn't a normal domestic situation. This was a compound full of heavily armed zealots who had already killed ATF officers.

It's not like they were blasting rounds into the compound. The tanks were used to open entry points into the compound and maybe to inject tear gas.

[jkjsooner]

not really all that common for the feds to involve other agencies on search warrants

i'm not saying it never happens - but it's an exception rather than the rule

Especially when the local police can't keep their damn mouths shut and compromise the whole raid. I wouldn't tell the local police either.

[jkjsooner]

It was the county Sheriff's Dept. not the local PD. Waco PD is inept. The fact they tipped them off ahead of time just shows the degree of trust between them and proves my point. They should have had the locals escort a very small number of agents out there.

As for routine SWAT raids...I don't like most of them either. I definitely could sit around and complain about them. For example, there was that case a few months ago where a fully armed SWAT team raided the wrong home and shot the family's dog. And why were they raiding in the first place? They got a tip that the house was growing pot...that's it! Some pot plants! :smh: You could say that was an isolated incident, but it's becoming increasingly more common.

There was a case in Maryland where the drugs were shipped to the house in a scheme where someone else would pick up the drugs. The wife mistakenly accepted the package. When the police raided they shot the two labs.

If I remember correctly, the recipient worked for the police department but it was the sheriffs department who raided the house...

Yeah, it sucks.

[pphilfran]

Good Lord! This old crap again? Here's an idea: if/when an officer of the law tells you to stop, that you're under arrest, try stopping and submitting to arrest. We seem to have umpteen groups and orgs (the ACLU, for instance) who'll be flying rock star legal talent in to make the gubment's life hell if they lack justification for arresting you.
I'm pretty libertarian, but simple common sense tells me that you don't pick a fight with a guy who going to win. And simple reading of the daily papers satisfy me that, insane delusion notwithstanding, I can get justice in this country by playing according to the rules.
Those of you who seem to support armed resistance are playing with fire and need to go have a nice cold beer and calm down.


Wait a damn minute...a logical and well thought out post?

[KantoSooner]

Well, either you're complimenting me on a post that is unusual for me; or for one that is unusual for this board and/or thread.
In either case, thank you.
I try to post logically and with thought; except of course for the drunken rants, angry diatribes and poorly considered jabs.
Moments of clarity, I seek to grab on to them.

[SicEmBaylor]

Worth reading:
http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/22/ruby-ridge-when-many-officials-realized

[rock on sooner]

Good Lord! This old crap again? Here's an idea: if/when an officer of the law tells you to stop, that you're under arrest, try stopping and submitting to arrest. We seem to have umpteen groups and orgs (the ACLU, for instance) who'll be flying rock star legal talent in to make the gubment's life hell if they lack justification for arresting you.
I'm pretty libertarian, but simple common sense tells me that you don't pick a fight with a guy who going to win. And simple reading of the daily papers satisfy me that, insane delusion notwithstanding, I can get justice in this country by playing according to the rules.
Those of you who seem to support armed resistance are playing with fire and need to go have a nice cold beer and calm down.

Hey, I vote for nice cold beer!:biggrin:

[KantoSooner]

most people would. I suggest several cleansing ales followed by a nice cabernet with a reasonable chunk of rare grilled beef and then six or seven calming bourbons, neat, whilst sitting on the porch with a good cigar. The world looks a lot better from that perspective.


*note, you'll have to be a bachelor to do this as wives tend to get testy at around the third bourbon mark and downright hostile if you go back for number five.

[ictsooner7]

Is any of that illegal and reason to send Federal agents on large scale raids and execute search/arrest warrants? For the love of God...if people think those things they are absolutely well within their right to do so. Seriously, what is wrong with you? I hope to God you weren't one of these people complaining about the loss of liberty during the Bush administration -- those people who do are absolutely right but in your case it would be a startling example of hypocrisy.

Do you any idea of what really happened? Probably not so here it is from several sources.

In 1992, a deliveryman accidentally dropped a package and saw that it was filled with grenades. It was against this background that the federal government obtained a warrant for Koresh's arrest.

He also stockpiled weapons and preached that the end of the world would occur when the U.S. government attacked the church. Local authorities contacted the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) to investigate Koresh and his weapons arsenal.

The ATF began surveillance of the Mt. Carmel compound in late 1992 and prepared for a raid. The operation was carried out ineptly from the start: middle-aged agents posed as college students, drawing the attention of Branch members. A plan for the raid, scheduled for March 1, was not drafted until Feb. 23, and then it was not distributed. The raid then had to be moved up a day because the ATF’s search warrant expired on Feb. 28.

Koresh was tipped off about the raid on the morning of Feb. 28 after news of it was leaked to the media. He confronted an undercover ATF agent who had joined the Branch, but allowed him to leave; the agent told his superiors that Koresh knew of the raid, but the ATF thought it could still proceed.

At 9:30 a.m., 76 ATF agents approached the headquarters with an arrest warrant for Koresh. When Koresh refused to surrender, a shot was fired, inciting a shootout; it is not certain which side fired the first shot. Four ATF agents and six Davidians were killed that day, while Koresh was injured. That night, Koresh gave interviews to CNN and a local news station.

Having grenades is illegal PERIOD. What is wrong with me? I don't want people to have GRENADES, or is that - they gonna take our guns!? What is wrong with you? Sticking up for some nutjob who is raping kids and stocking piling weapons waiting for the apocalypse. I don't want crazy people to have MILITARY WEAPONS.

Let me talk slow and use small words so you can understand.....ATF was taking a search warrent to the compound for the leader of the cult - there was a member of the ATF who was undercover in the cult who knew about the weapons stockpile - hence - sorry too big of a word for you, knowing they had a stockpile of weapons they sent 76 ATF agents to the compound. So the answer is YES! Send 76 agents to a crazy mans heavily armed compound is the right thing to do and after talking to him for 51 day and him not giving up, sending in a "tank" as you like to call it is the right thing to do. No more timothy mcveigh's. You worship of guns has made you crazy.

[olevetonahill]

Hey Ickster Try reading this

According to you then The Feds Ned to be all over me Ive got grenades in fact 2 of em are with in reach as I type

These 2 that I have are exactly like the ones The Davidians were buying LEGALLY

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/930607/archive_015267.htm

[ictsooner7]

Hey Ickster Try reading this

According to you then The Feds Ned to be all over me Ive got grenades in fact 2 of em are with in reach as I type

These 2 that I have are exactly like the ones The Davidians were buying LEGALLY

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/930607/archive_015267.htm

Thank you, again, for making my arguement for me, this is in the article YOU gave me the link to:

There is an especially troublesome loophole in gun law that allows hand grenades to circulate freely. No restriction exists on buying them so long as the explosive charge is not included. Investigation of the Davidians began after a box being delivered by a United Parcel Service employee broke open, revealing about 50 inert, pineapple-style grenades. Informants told ATF agents that Koresh was using such inert grenades, along with black powder and fuzes, to manufacture live grenades. Authorities maintain that the Davidians injured agents in the initial raid by hurling homemade hand grenades. Attorney DeGuerin says Koresh denied using hand grenades during the initial raid.

So you wont have to do any thinking LIVE GRENADES ARE ILLEGAL.

[jk the sooner fan]

whats the point of arresting Koresh in town - there's no search to be conducted

what are you going to prosecute him on by arresting him at the grocery store without all the illegal weapons, etc? nothing

those of you who are sudden expert on law enforcement operations amuse me

[Wishboned]

whats the point of arresting Koresh in town - there's no search to be conducted

what are you going to prosecute him on by arresting him at the grocery store without all the illegal weapons, etc? nothing

those of you who are sudden expert on law enforcement operations amuse me

How about the opinion of the experts in law enforcement operations reasons for arresting him off compound? Would that make better sense to you?



Having understandably decided not to rely solely on Koresh' s voluntary compliance
with the warrants, ATF tactical planners initially focused their attention on arresting Koresh
while he was away from the Compound, either by luring him off or by waiting until he had
left it on his own accord. Koresh' s followers, the pljinners believed, had become so
accustomed to relying on his leadership and guidance that they would be far less likely to
resist ATF in any organized way if Koresh could be removed from the scene; this
advantage would be significant whether ATF established a siege of the Compound or
conducted a raid.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/TheRainKing/Links/Koresh.jpg

http://ia700402.us.archive.org/23/items/reportofdepartme00unit/reportofdepartme00unit.pdf

[rock on sooner]

most people would. I suggest several cleansing ales followed by a nice cabernet with a reasonable chunk of rare grilled beef and then six or seven calming bourbons, neat, whilst sitting on the porch with a good cigar. The world looks a lot better from that perspective.


*note, you'll have to be a bachelor to do this as wives tend to get testy at around the third bourbon mark and downright hostile if you go back for number five.

Only problem is whose gonna grill the beef n I gotta problem with cigars since
I & my wife dont smoke. Ales are okay 'cept they're kinda fillin n I want some
chips n salsa with the beer...like tha light stuff. Wifey would like the wine...
let's do it!!!!

[jk the sooner fan]

you can armchair quarterback to death any failed raid - what else did you think they were going to say?

decisions are made all the time - the ATF made mistakes

i personally dont buy for one second that any law enforcement agency was EVER going to legally seize anything out of that compound without a violent fight

to think otherwise is foolish imo

[jk the sooner fan]

How about the opinion of the experts in law enforcement operations reasons for arresting him off compound? Would that make better sense to you?




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/TheRainKing/Links/Koresh.jpg

http://ia700402.us.archive.org/23/items/reportofdepartme00unit/reportofdepartme00unit.pdf

i read that article and saw this quote "It is now impossible to know whether ATF's execution of the search warrant would have been aided by arresting Koresh while he was away from the compound"

is that what you were trying to point out to me?

[Wishboned]

i read that article and saw this quote "It is now impossible to know whether ATF's execution of the search warrant would have been aided by arresting Koresh while he was away from the compound"

is that what you were trying to point out to me?

No, I was pointing out the reasons the people who were responsible for planning the raid wanted to arrest Koresh off compound.

[ictsooner7]

whats the point of arresting Koresh in town - there's no search to be conducted

what are you going to prosecute him on by arresting him at the grocery store without all the illegal weapons, etc? nothing

those of you who are sudden expert on law enforcement operations amuse me

So................did the ATF see him at the grocery store? Do you think the "lamb of god" went out to get groceries? I can hear him now, hey guys I'd love to have you give me your underage daughters for sex, but I have to run to the grocery store, how about later?

[jk the sooner fan]

i think Koresh was seen in town on a regular basis - that isnt disputed

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

But who's going to shed a tear for Nazis and pedophiles?
http://jamblichus.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/red_herring.jpg
.

[ictsooner7]

i think Koresh was seen in town on a regular basis - that isnt disputed

It is very disputed, read the report above. Either way, when law inforcement comes to your door, you don't start shooting.

[MamaMia]

Koresh was a dangerous psychopath who needed to be stopped. The feds had enough on him to serve him off the premises with a warrant for his arrest. With Koresh behind bars, Off Premise Negotiations with the Davidians should have been implemented. The initial negotiations should have included releasing all of the women and children and asking that the adults agree to leave the compound to come in for questioning. IF they chose to resist, which I doubt they would have with Koresh behind bars, thats when force should have been executed.

[SicEmBaylor]

Koresh was a dangerous psychopath who needed to be stopped. The feds had enough on him to serve him off the premises with a warrant for his arrest. With Koresh behind bars, Off Premise Negotiations with the Davidians should have been implemented. The initial negotiations should have included releasing all of the women and children and asking that the adults agree to leave the compound to come in for questioning. IF they chose to resist, which I doubt they would have with Koresh behind bars, thats when force should have been executed.
What proof that he was a "dangerous psychopath" did the government have that would have been sufficient enough to issue an arrest warrant and then put him behind bars?

The Feds didn't show up at Mt. Caramel to issue an arrest warrant -- they showed up to issue a search warrant.

[MamaMia]

What proof that he was a "dangerous psychopath" did the government have that would have been sufficient enough to issue an arrest warrant and then put him behind bars?

The Feds didn't show up at Mt. Caramel to issue an arrest warrant -- they showed up to issue a search warrant.He was hoarding artillery and sexually abusing children. Thats not normal behavior. This escalated to that point because the feds didnt take the proper steps. People can say that mistakes were made on both sides, and thats true, however the feds are trained to prevent mistakes being made on both sides.

The whole thing could have been avoided.

[MamaMia]

about Ruby Ridge...An FBI official was charged with obstruction after concealing the Ruby Ridge report. Kahoes actions of destroying critiques of the the altercation led to big changes in how the FBI handles these types of undertakings with an emphasis of executing more peaceful confrontations.Ya think? Its a shame that children were killed before they came up with a smart plan.

[MamaMia]

Most of America was outraged over the Koresh compound fiaasco for two reasons:

1) It was so obvious this escalated to a such an outrages point because the feds had turned into process servers on steroids and we knew that this could have been avoided with less aggression coupled with some common sense.

2) Janet Reno was not giving out ONE BIT of information; repeatedly saying "I can not comment during an ongoing investigation." Thats all she EVER said, as if she didn't owe us, the American people ANY explanation at all about something that some information would not have changed. It wasn't as if we weren't seeing every moment of it unfold right before our eyes. People were watching that compound night and day on TV... well, other than the Dravidian's. They cut their water, gas and electricity off early on. Reno's press conferences were a joke and waste of time. She treated us all like we were a bunch of dumb asses and like telling us what was going on was going to make some kind of difference. They started the coverup before they were done with the incident they were going to engage in cover ups over.

[jk the sooner fan]

re: Waco - a little known point of interest - not that it had a HUGE role in the outcome - but was a factor

the number of federal agents/employees/etc in Waco was GINORMOUS.......when fed employees are on official travel, they are exempt from paying any local/state taxes on lodging

the city of Waco was losing A LOT of money everyday because there were few hotel rooms in town that weren't occupied by fed employees

there was a quiet push from the city to the government to bring things to an end because of lost revenue