solar panel show on public TV

[Soonerjeepman]

was flipping through the TV

There was one of the home repair shows on public TV, they were installing solar panels on a build. The owner of the company was pimping them out, produces 20% of the houses energy, etc.
He then talked cost, "down to $500 from a $1000 a few years ago". The reasons he gave was manufacturing cheaper, technology better and the GOVERNMENT "helping them out"...slipped it right in. Course the other guy didn't say a thing about the "government's help".

[pphilfran]

Received this email today...


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Take advantage of government incentives while they last and find out how easy it is to save with solar.
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[Soonerjeepman]

interesting...I guess I have SOME acceptance of giving the home owner a break...but this guy was the owner of the solar panel company and HIS company was getting "help".

[badger]

Reduce your energy costs by up to 80%

Yeah and if I go on Weight Watchers I can lose up to 100 lbs :P

[yermom]

once the tech is established and adopted, it's going to get cheaper. without a jumpstart, it might not advance much at all.

it's hard to compete with gas and coal for energy right now, but would you rather have to wait until it's not for these technologies to start to develop?

i'd rather my taxes go to that than bombing stone age people back into the stone age

[pphilfran]

once the tech is established and adopted, it's going to get cheaper. without a jumpstart, it might not advance much at all.

it's hard to compete with gas and coal for energy right now, but would you rather have to wait until it's not for these technologies to start to develop?

i'd rather my taxes go to that than bombing stone age people back into the stone age

I don't have a problem with the subsidies...I have a problem with the reasons being touted for the subsidies...and who benefits by the subsidies...

[badger]

If I was a billionaire individual (or wife of billionaire NP, hehe), I would not mind investing in new technology, or researching it personally.

If I was a billionaire government, I'd focus on necessities first - infrastructure, education, health, security.

[KantoSooner]

Before we get too excited about the 'greenness' of solar, take a long look at the silicon wafer manufacturing process. Solar panels are nothing more than a specialized type of 'chip' . To produce the silicon wafers and then to create the device on the surface of said chips takes enormous quantities of:
1. Water
2. Electricity
3. A witch's brew of amazing chemical compounds. (among them concentrated phosgene gas. Yummo! Gimme a double scoop o' that!) All of which require their own manufacturing processes.

And produces a really cool effluent stream. (If you can find a wafer plant, you can tell when they're doing surface cleaning by the smell of pickles in the air; that's the acid vapor that's getting through the filters. One plant I visited had a nifty 'plume' mark on the hillside behind it. A little island of dead trees in the shape of a teardrop pointing at the exhaust stack.)

The assemblies contain various heavy metals which need to be recovered whenever the units are retired.

I am not at all sure that solar is all that 'green' if all this is taken into account.

[okie52]

Before we get too excited about the 'greenness' of solar, take a long look at the silicon wafer manufacturing process. Solar panels are nothing more than a specialized type of 'chip' . To produce the silicon wafers and then to create the device on the surface of said chips takes enormous quantities of:
1. Water
2. Electricity
3. A witch's brew of amazing chemical compounds. (among them concentrated phosgene gas. Yummo! Gimme a double scoop o' that!) All of which require their own manufacturing processes.

And produces a really cool effluent stream. (If you can find a wafer plant, you can tell when they're doing surface cleaning by the smell of pickles in the air; that's the acid vapor that's getting through the filters. One plant I visited had a nifty 'plume' mark on the hillside behind it. A little island of dead trees in the shape of a teardrop pointing at the exhaust stack.)

The assemblies contain various heavy metals which need to be recovered whenever the units are retired.

I am not at all sure that solar is all that 'green' if all this is taken into account.

Almost nothing is purely green if all factors are taken into account.

[KantoSooner]

True, but my point went further: I am not at all sure that solar would stack up well against coal, oil or cogeneration through burning garbage if you added it all up.

[hawaii 5-0]

My electric bill last month was $16.73.

If I had airconditioning running 24/7 it would still be $16.73 per month.

If I plugged in an electric car overnight everyday it would still be $16.73 per month.

To me it was a no brainer.

Besides that I was able to invest $15 thousand and enjoy an immediate 500% return on my investment due to my home value increasing by $70 thousand.

Hell yeah, I'll take that.

5-0

[pphilfran]

My electric bill last month was $16.73.

If I had airconditioning running 24/7 it would still be $16.73 per month.

If I plugged in an electric car overnight everyday it would still be $16.73 per month.

To me it was a no brainer.

Besides that I was able to invest $15 thousand and enjoy an immediate 500% return on my investment due to my home value increasing by $70 thousand.

Hell yeah, I'll take that.

5-0


How big is your system?

To be able to run a/c 100% of the time you would currently be generating a lot of excess electricity with by law must be bought by the local electric company...so why are you paying $16.73 per month? You should be getting a credit each month...unless I am missing something the numbers do not add up...

I asked this earlier and I am not sure if I got a reply...instead of giving large credits to only those that can afford the 15k upgrade (in Okieland I am sure it would cost 30 or 40 grand to get similar results due to the difference in weather) why not put in place a system that helps the lower income folks and not just those with big wallets...

And by spreading the savings over millions of homes instead of 10 of thousands (just guessing on that number) wouldn't it be reasonable to assume the same, or even greater, energy saving could be noted?

[hawaii 5-0]

Phil, I'll have to get back with you on the size.

I'm very happy with the folks I used to install it. Very professional and quality materials. I've also been up on some others' roofs and seen shoddy work.

There's 15 high efficiancy panels up there, more than what I need. I was planning on some family moving in someday with needs more than me.

No one gets a $ 0.00 electric bill. Somehow the Electric Company (HECO) gets a little something regardless of how many KWH are generated.

I haven't a clue why the Electric Company doesn't push for big systems to help lower income folks. I know there's $$$$ involved. There's also gonna be a limit the Electric Company will allow solar homes on the grid. Eventually there will be a cut-off. That's why I made the plunge now. (As well as the future of tax credits.)

5-0

[okie52]

True, but my point went further: I am not at all sure that solar would stack up well against coal, oil or cogeneration through burning garbage if you added it all up.

You're never going to convince Obama of that...solar is already in the green energy hall of fame.

[soonercruiser]

Speaking of solar energy....
Anybody seen any of the few reports associated with Solyndra's bankruptcy, and them putting millions of dollars worth of stuff in their dumpsters???? OUR TAX DOLLARS IN THE DUMPSTER!!!!!

Seems that 1,000 solar tubes eneded up at Cal Berkley, were they made them into an art project.
I'm guessing only LW colleges got the stuff from Solyndra.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/08/21/solyndra-glass-tubes-used-as-art-exhibit/

[pphilfran]

Phil, I'll have to get back with you on the size.

I'm very happy with the folks I used to install it. Very professional and quality materials. I've also been up on some others' roofs and seen shoddy work.

There's 15 high efficiancy panels up there, more than what I need. I was planning on some family moving in someday with needs more than me.

No one gets a $ 0.00 electric bill. Somehow the Electric Company (HECO) gets a little something regardless of how many KWH are generated.

I haven't a clue why the Electric Company doesn't push for big systems to help lower income folks. I know there's $$$$ involved. There's also gonna be a limit the Electric Company will allow solar homes on the grid. Eventually there will be a cut-off. That's why I made the plunge now. (As well as the future of tax credits.)

5-0

I must still be missing something....your system cost 15k...would have cost something like 30k without credits...but your home value increased by 70k...that doesn't sound correct...

If your system was set up properly and you over generate you should receive no electric charge...is the 17 bucks a service charge and not actual electrical usage?

http://www.heco.com/portal/site/heco/menuitem.508576f78baa14340b4c0610c510b1ca/?vgnextoid=12a290a2decab110VgnVCM1000005c011bacRCR D&cpsextcurrchannel=1#bk1

1. What is net energy metering?

According to Hawaii state law (Hawaii Revised Statutes (HRS) Section 269-101 - 269-111), all residential and commercial utility customers who own and operate an eligible renewable energy generation system up to a generating capacity of 100 kW and intend to connect to utility grid, must register their systems with their utility by executing a NEM agreement. The executed agreement allows the NEM customer to connect their renewable generator to the utility grid, allowing it to export surplus electricity into the grid, and to receive credits at full retail value which can be used to offset electricity purchases over a 12-month period.

NEM customers are billed for net energy purchased, which is determined by subtracting the excess energy exported to the utility grid from the total energy supplied by the utility. Here is the formula:

2. What is the value of NEM?

NEM allows you to offset all or part of your electricity purchases from the utility by energy produced by your eligible renewable generation system and export any excess electricity to the utility grid at the retail rate.

NEM gives value to the excess electricity you produce with your renewable generation system. Electricity generated by your renewable generator would first supply power for your own needs and any additional power you need would be purchased from the utility. When a NEM customer generates more electricity than what is consumed, excess energy produced can be exported back to the utility at full retail value which can be used to offset electricity purchases over a 12-month period.

This is in contrast to other non-NEM customers with renewable energy generation systems. If they have a power purchase agreement, they are compensated for power exported to the utility grid at a lower wholesale rate. Standard interconnection customers must consume all electricity that is self-generated, and not allow to export surplus energy to the grid nor be compensated. With NEM, you are in effect being given the retail credit for excess power which you generate.

6. Will I need a new meter and, if so, do I need to pay for it?

New and existing NEM systems will require a new bi-directional meter capable of measuring the energy supplied by your utility and the excess electricity from your renewable energy generation system exported to the grid. Hawaiian Electric will provide the meter at no cost to you when the NEM agreement is executed.

If you are planning to install a qualified renewable energy generation system and have an existing electric meter with a digital display, please call Hawaiian Electric at 543-4760 to confirm if your meter is compatible to ensure proper credit can be given. Your existing meter may have to be replaced before your system can be energized. If you have an existing mechanical meter, it will be replaced when the NEM agreement is executed.

All meters must be accessible by Hawaiian Electric personnel for emergencies, meter reading, inspection, testing, and maintenance in accordance with the tariff and Hawaiian Electric's Electric Service Installation Manual. For billing purposes the net meter displays more data than your current meter and needs to be manually read. Please note that upon execution (signing) of a NEM agreement, you agree to allow Hawaiian Electric personnel entry to your property during normal business hours to read and perform maintenance on the meter. If the customer plans to make modifications or additions which would render the metering facilities inaccessible, the customer must consult with Hawaiian Electric before making such modifications or additions, and make arrangements satisfactory to the utility for continued access by its workers.

7. What are the requirements for execution of the NEM agreement?
For qualified renewable energy generation systems less than 10 kW:
1. The Appendix I must be completely filled out with the customer information including the customer's name, address, electric account number, and contact information provided. The agreement must be signed by both the customer and the licensed electrical contractor who completed the work. The make, model and number of renewable generator (PV modules, wind turbine, hydroelectric generator, or biomass generator) and inverter information must also be provided. For more information on how to fill-out the NEM agreement, you can download a sample here.

[pphilfran]

One other question...how much were your electric bills prior to installation?

[hawaii 5-0]

Phil, my electric bills were averaging $140-150 per month prior to photovolteic.

I already had solar hot water. Everything else is electric.

I've met all the agreements in post #16 that you referred to.

Even tho I only paid about $15K for the system, when I resell the house I can ask $70 more than it was valued at prior to installation.

Certain things are worth more here. Location in a good neighborhood, ocean view, ocean access, swimming pool, landscaping with watering system, dual panel construction, etc. Living on one particular side of a street can make a $100K difference in a home value. Solar water and electric are two other things that are selling features in homes making them more desireable and thus more valuable.

Would you rather buy a home with a $16.73 electric bill or take your chances with the your electric usage? Thank you can get your usage to less than $17.00 ?

The PV system itself needs a little electricity to run it's inverters. I really don't know why I'm still charged a bill at all. I'm confident HECO is coming out ahead regardless as they continue to ask for and get rate increases.

I admit I'm still a newby in PV, but I sure love that new electric bill.


5-0

[olevetonahill]

5-0

I asked about this stuff in a thread a few months back

It seems the Panels and such are fairly cheap now. But some mentioned the high price of storage. Do you Need storage batteries ?

[pphilfran]

Phil, my electric bills were averaging $140-150 per month prior to photovolteic.

I already had solar hot water. Everything else is electric.

I've met all the agreements in post #16 that you referred to.

Even tho I only paid about $15K for the system, when I resell the house I can ask $70 more than it was valued at prior to installation.

Certain things are worth more here. Location in a good neighborhood, ocean view, ocean access, swimming pool, landscaping with watering system, dual panel construction, etc. Living on one particular side of a street can make a $100K difference in a home value. Solar water and electric are two other things that are selling features in homes making them more desireable and thus more valuable.

Would you rather buy a home with a $16.73 electric bill or take your chances with the your electric usage? Thank you can get your usage to less than $17.00 ?

The PV system itself needs a little electricity to run it's inverters. I really don't know why I'm still charged a bill at all. I'm confident HECO is coming out ahead regardless as they continue to ask for and get rate increases.

I admit I'm still a newby in PV, but I sure love that new electric bill.


5-0

Why would somebody pay 70k for something that they can get installed for 30k without credits? That makes no sense...did you do any other upgrades at the same time that would increase the value of your home?


So you are saving 120 a month...and as time goes on and rates increase you will see additional savings...so you have a payback of about 8 1/2 years....

But...

If you have invested the money and got a 7% return your 15 grand would be worth just short of 30 grand after 8 1/2 years...you must take that into account when calculating your savings...

I believe you (or the people that sold you the system) are overstating the net savings over time and the increase in value of your home...

At least that is what your data suggests...and without a 50% subsidy you would be losing your butt...

Whatever the case if you are satisfied then that is all that matters...

disclaimer : I am using rough estimates... :)

[pphilfran]

5-0

I asked about this stuff in a thread a few months back

It seems the Panels and such are fairly cheap now. But some mentioned the high price of storage. Do you Need storage batteries ?

You don't have to have storage batteries but you will have usage during cloudy days or at night and will buy from the electrical company...during the day if you have excess capacity the electric company will buy back you excess (varying rates depending on the electrical companies contract)...if you do use batteries the cost goes upward significantly...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I don't have a problem with the subsidies...I have a problem with the reasons being touted for the subsidies...and who benefits by the subsidies...

I don't have a problem with subsidies either. In some ways, I think that could be a role of the FEDGOV. However, I would like to see a strategic energy plan that is realistic in viability and work from there. We haven't had a consensus energy plan since the Arab oil embargo.

[cleller]

Seems like the panels should continue to come down in price, and companies continue to go under. I read that currently companies are turning out panels something like 30-40% above the demand for them.

[KantoSooner]

Thus, LET THE CHINESE HAVE THIS MARKET, for now at least. It's a cash burning loser. And it's horribly polluting. They want to sell us panels at below cost whilst burning out the groundwater of Szechwan Province? LET THEM.
We should be concentrating on things like flexible screens, better heat dissipation in chips, nano-tube based chips and other items of a 'disruptive technology' nature. Screw the panels, they're yesterday's news...and, given $1.5 bill, you could build a plant to supply all the US market, you could build that plant in six months (less on a crash basis) and it would be pumping out product the day it was finished...if the Chinese were so foolish as to 'cut us off'.

[hawaii 5-0]

5-0

I asked about this stuff in a thread a few months back

It seems the Panels and such are fairly cheap now. But some mentioned the high price of storage. Do you Need storage batteries ?

I have no batteries. I have a digital electric meter contifured for photovolteic.

5-0

[olevetonahill]

I have no batteries. I have a digital electric meter contifured for photovolteic.

5-0

Can I have that in the simpleton language please ?

[SCOUT]

once the tech is established and adopted, it's going to get cheaper. without a jumpstart, it might not advance much at all.

it's hard to compete with gas and coal for energy right now, but would you rather have to wait until it's not for these technologies to start to develop?

i'd rather my taxes go to that than bombing stone age people back into the stone age
I am with Yermom on most of this. Investment into technological advancement generally has a very positive return on investment as it relates to the general populace (Please re-fund NASA, I really like my cell phone). My view is that the investment should be into cell technology to increase the production per cell. Solar should not be a part of the national energy policy via things such as solar farms. Distributing affordable solar cells out to individual households, through normal market paths, reduces a majority of the complication associated with solar (i.e. dependability, transmission etc.).

As to the military piece, I wish the world were a simple enough place where things like energy policy and national security were just either or decisions.

[SCOUT]

Can I have that in the simpleton language please ?
He doesn't have any storage batteries. He has a "smart meter" that allows for information to go to an from his provider. He needs this because he has electricity generation on his personal property. In periods of low usage, he can sell his surplus energy to the utility. In periods of low production, he can buy electricity from his utility provider like everyone else.

[olevetonahill]

He doesn't have any storage batteries. He has a "smart meter" that allows for information to go to an from his provider. He needs this because he has electricity generation on his personal property. In periods of low usage, he can sell his surplus energy to the utility. In periods of low production, he can buy electricity from his utility provider like everyone else.

So why ya need batteries then? Screw it Just use what ya make then buy what ya need

[SCOUT]

So why ya need batteries then? Screw it Just use what ya make then buy what ya need
You don't need the batteries.

[SCOUT]

There is a plant under construction that would allow surplus generation to run to a battery station around the TX, NM, CO borders. There are a bunch of facets to their distribution plans, but storage is one. It is pretty cutting edge, but the idea is pretty intriguing. Here is their site
http://www.tresamigasllc.com/

[olevetonahill]

You don't need the batteries.


Thats what I was thinkin
Ya only need the batteries if yer gonna be totally self sufficient right?

When I started that thread a few months back that was what i were trying to find out then got distracted and said to hell with it

I had found a site that said i could get set up fer pretty cheap to supply my needs

[hawaii 5-0]

To go 'off the grid' ie, not have an electric line running to your house you'd need batteries to store the juice you generated.

Like a septic tank or a water well.


5-0

[yermom]

i'm thinking batteries would be interesting without solar

buy power at night to charge them when it's cheap, run the A/C from the batteries during the day when it's expensive

[olevetonahill]

i'm thinking batteries would be interesting without solar

buy power at night to charge them when it's cheap, run the A/C from the batteries during the day when it's expensive

I think it stays the same price thruout . Theres just less demand at night

[yermom]

i'm speaking more generally, but really price and demand aren't that different.

OG&E is pushing this a lot too:
http://www.ogepet.com/programs/smarthours.aspx

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I like how old is the new new... Here in Houston, they are running a campaign for people to sign up for the great program to have the Centerpoint Energy turn off your AC in the middle of the day to help you save power. Like no way in hell!!! I remember those old remote boxes the OG&E put on people's AC units back in the late 70s and early 80s...

I understand trying to shed load and all to prevent a brown.black out, but I am not going to let them control my AC or electrics...

[Skysooner]

I like how old is the new new... Here in Houston, they are running a campaign for people to sign up for the great program to have the Centerpoint Energy turn off your AC in the middle of the day to help you save power. Like no way in hell!!! I remember those old remote boxes the OG&E put on people's AC units back in the late 70s and early 80s...

I understand trying to shed load and all to prevent a brown.black out, but I am not going to let them control my AC or electrics...

Actually this isn't to prevent a brown or blackout. It can be used as such, but the main reason is that by taking AC load off in the middle of the hottest days of power, they are able to decrease their marginal cost of power. The highest power usage is obviously during hot summer days. There are plants that are kept offline but in a state of readiness for these peak loads. They are the most expensive plants to operate and thus the marginal cost of that extra power is higher than what they normally get. By shedding load, they don't have to keep those extra high cost plants online and thus reduce cost. They should be passing on a substantial rate decrease for you throughout the entire year for doing something like this.

I have managed power shedding systems in the oil industry out near Midland before. This was ERCOT controlled power though.

[pphilfran]

Thus, LET THE CHINESE HAVE THIS MARKET, for now at least. It's a cash burning loser. And it's horribly polluting. They want to sell us panels at below cost whilst burning out the groundwater of Szechwan Province? LET THEM.
We should be concentrating on things like flexible screens, better heat dissipation in chips, nano-tube based chips and other items of a 'disruptive technology' nature. Screw the panels, they're yesterday's news...and, given $1.5 bill, you could build a plant to supply all the US market, you could build that plant in six months (less on a crash basis) and it would be pumping out product the day it was finished...if the Chinese were so foolish as to 'cut us off'.

You are vastly underestimating the time build a plant...

You have to do the initial planning of the plant...many months just to get on paper what you want...

They would require special equipment to manufacture the cells...those are not shelf items and are custom order and made...from date of order it could expect to see them in hand within 6 months if you are lucky...

Then installation of the equipment...it is not like you are putting in a refrigerator...there will be strict tolerances in set and alignment...down into the thousands of an inch...

Then the start up process and debugging...when you first fire up the plant you can expect at least 6 months before you reach full capacity...and that would be busting *** and not having any bugs in any of the systems...

I was on the project team on three major projects...it took two years to get things near capacity...and that doesn't take into account the design and ordering time...

If everything goes right on schedule two years minimum from initial planning to near capacity...and that is being damn aggressive...

[pphilfran]

Actually this isn't to prevent a brown or blackout. It can be used as such, but the main reason is that by taking AC load off in the middle of the hottest days of power, they are able to decrease their marginal cost of power. The highest power usage is obviously during hot summer days. There are plants that are kept offline but in a state of readiness for these peak loads. They are the most expensive plants to operate and thus the marginal cost of that extra power is higher than what they normally get. By shedding load, they don't have to keep those extra high cost plants online and thus reduce cost. They should be passing on a substantial rate decrease for you throughout the entire year for doing something like this.

I have managed power shedding systems in the oil industry out near Midland before. This was ERCOT controlled power though.

Good info, as usual...

[KantoSooner]

You are vastly underestimating the time build a plant...


If everything goes right on schedule two years minimum from initial planning to near capacity...and that is being damn aggressive...

And I participated in design and build for both logic and memory chip plants for Chinese, Malaysian, Taiwanese, German, Israeli and American companies from 1989 to 2005. (roughtly the 150mm generation to 300mm generation) You want to build a plant, you can build it in six months. Hell, it only took 13 months to build what was, at the time the most sophisticated chip plant in the world, Sony/Nagasaki 2...from whence the digital signal processors that allowed video game characters hair to blow in the wind came. (and those little darlings also serve as very serviceable terrain following contour guidance chips...which was only figured out after bad people suddenly ordered about 300 Play Stations pre-release).

And solar cells are wide spec garbage compared to either mass market logic or memory. People can and do build them on the shards of broken silicon from shipping damage. These are sold to 'reclaimers' on a steady basis.

And, no the equipment is not hard to pick up. You could fit out a workable panel fab with used equipment that is ready to ship today. Again, the equipment is not available at the local hardware store, but is available, and readily so from any of 20-25 domestic vendors of used equipment. If you needed brand new for some unknown reason, the equipment makers are bleeding in the streets and would have stiffies to the degree that they couldn't walk if they got orders for new equipment right now.

I'm not talking about the typical BS circus of thinking about it for the better part of a decade and getting together for SEMI standards circle jerks. I refer to what is possible if you are cut off from your supply and there's a pile of money there for the guy who gets his plant up and running first.

And if we need to compromise between my six months and your 24, well, we're still not talking about enough of a disruption to dictate that we need to go subsidize a giant money losing *** festival like the solar panel market.

If we want to go play in that market, we should look at ways to build the devices through a technology like jet printing rather than the hugely expensive photo-lithography. And then hopefully keep the academics mouths shut until we have our first 3 or 4 plants built and then see how the Chinese like being in a tail chase.

[pphilfran]

If it is a greenfield plant a year would be very difficult under any circumstances...if you are modding an existing facility then the time frame would be shorter...starting from scratch an year would be pushing it...

[KantoSooner]

We should take this off line over beers sometime, we're boring our audience. It is clearly a subject about which I feel passionate. I loved the industry and was NOT ready to leave when a sudden left turn (when I was leaning right, at high speed) pretty much ended my involvement.
The issue of plant leadtime not withstanding, I think you'd agree that trying to subsidize your way to prominence in a money losing business is not a path to happiness and wealth.

[pphilfran]

We should take this off line over beers sometime, we're boring our audience. It is clearly a subject about which I feel passionate. I loved the industry and was NOT ready to leave when a sudden left turn (when I was leaning right, at high speed) pretty much ended my involvement.
The issue of plant leadtime not withstanding, I think you'd agree that trying to subsidize your way to prominence in a money losing business is not a path to happiness and wealth.

You have made great points...I enjoyed the discussion...screw everybody else if they don't like our back and forth... :)