When Is a Hate Crime, Not a Hate Crime?

[LiveLaughLove]

Well, of course, it's when it is a leftist gay doing the hate crime. Then it's just a disagreement.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/crime-scene/post/morning-shooting-in-northwest-dc/2012/08/15/845fe926-e6ec-11e1-8f62-58260e3940a0_blog.html

It doesn't even get front page, it gets put in the Local section.

He walked in with a bag of Chick-fil-A, said he "disagreed" with the Family Research Council's positions and tried to enter, was stopped, and shot the guard. The guard took his gun away, and the sniveling coward pleaded for the guard not to shoot him.

He was a big fan of Nietzche, of course. Worked at a gay community center (why not). That's like a pedophile working at a day care.

Let's rewind, and recall all of the hate spewed toward Chick-fil-A and Christians in general for their stance opposing gay marriage. I recall quite a bit of venom being spewed on tv, radio, in print by some very prominent speakers.

Let's rewind a bit further, I recall people blaming "right wing" radio talkers and Sarah Palin for Gabby Giffords (even though there was no connection). I recall Aurora being blamed on the Tea Party (no connection).

Yet here we have an obvious connection, gay, the Chick-fil-A bag, the "disagreement", and yet no blame to the left and it's hate speech toward Christians or Dan Cathy. None. In fact, the story (as usual) has been played down as much as possible. The excuse will be, well no one was killed. Poppycock!

I wonder, just wonder, gosh I wonder, what the heck the reaction would have been had it been a Christian shooting in an LGBT lobby. Think it would have garnered any more attention than this one? Think it would have been labeled as a "disagreement"? Think Chris Matthews would have mentioned it once, twice, ten thousand times? Yeah me too.

[badger]

I think it might have garnered more attention if more than a security guard was injured, or if someone actually died. As it stands now, it's a crazy lunatic who thought he'd raise a big stink by shooting people while holding a Chick fil A bag.

Which of course, means that he had to go to Chick Fil A to get said bag.

Hope the guard makes a speedy recovery from his gunshot wound.

[LiveLaughLove]

I think it might have garnered more attention if more than a security guard was injured, or if someone actually died. As it stands now, it's a crazy lunatic who thought he'd raise a big stink by shooting people while holding a Chick fil A bag.

Which of course, means that he had to go to Chick Fil A to get said bag.

Hope the guard makes a speedy recovery from his gunshot wound.

You and I both know that even if the same wounds had been accrued, if it had been the scenario I described with the reverse, it would be on every network and people would be screaming about the hate coming from Christians and talk radio.

So I don't buy that it was because of the lesser severity of wounds. Sorry.

[SoonerAtKU]

I'll say it right now. That's despicable, wrong-headed, and shameful. Anyone claiming to be "enlightened" in this discussion should condemn this act and anyone who supports it.

Does that help, L-cubed?

[LiveLaughLove]

I'll say it right now. That's despicable, wrong-headed, and shameful. Anyone claiming to be "enlightened" in this discussion should condemn this act and anyone who supports it.

Does that help, L-cubed?

Thanks KU. Wasn't exactly what I was addressing but I appreciate it. I wouldn't expect anyone to think it was cool.

My angle is the media hypocrisy of downplaying and ignoring.

[okie52]

PC is such a bitch.

[yermom]

he hates security guards?

i'd like to see his website.

[badger]

You and I both know that even if the same wounds had been accrued, if it had been the scenario I described with the reverse, it would be on every network and people would be screaming about the hate coming from Christians and talk radio.

So I don't buy that it was because of the lesser severity of wounds. Sorry.

Perhaps, but it wasn't. And it's not like the incident was entirely ignored by the media, or there wouldn't be a link to it on a media site.

[Mississippi Sooner]

PC is such a bitch.

That's what Apple said.

(Stupid, I know. I'm just in that kinda mood today.)

[KantoSooner]

LLL and I agree on very little; but on this he's right on two levels. First, this is a 'hate crime'. To the extent that this POS came to the FRC with gun to cause trouble due to their opinions, it pretty much qualifies.
Second, and more importantly, the reaction of the media has been fascinating in its blatant disregard for the lives of people with whom they, mostly, disagree.

I heard of a potter who kept his feeliing of touch sensitive by spending a day each week working with clay with a lot of sand in it....to grind off his callouses. I think the media in this country need a bit of the same. They've convinced themselves for so long that they are fighting the good fight that they can't see their own institutional biases.

[badger]

It might be a majority/minority thing, thinking that certain groups don't need to be given a voice or be defended, because they can speak for themselves and defend themselves.

Never lose sight of the fact that the media is business, however. If you want to see certain types of stories, click on them online, share the links with others, support their advertisers, etc. If you are upset at certain media for the way they cover events (or don't cover them), don't give them your business. Think MSNBC, CNN et al don't notice that Fox News is beating them in the ratings department? Brace yourself for changes, old farts who watch network news! :P

[jk the sooner fan]

when the perp loves what he does?

[I Am Right]

When the Perp is a Liberal.

[jkjsooner]

Worked at a gay community center (why not). That's like a pedophile working at a day care.

I don't disagree with your main point but I strongly disagree with this statement. I can't even believe you would attempt to make this connection.

If I worked at a sorority house would you say it's like a pedophile working at a day care?

You can believe homosexuality is a sin all you want and your welcome to state that but your repeated comparisons between it a pedophilia are infuriating.


One more note, you may not like it that I took two sentences out of your entire statement but if you want people to address the point your trying to make I'd suggest avoiding making side comments like that. It's hard to take your opinions seriously when you throw crap like this in there.

[LiveLaughLove]

I don't disagree with your main point but I strongly disagree with this statement. I can't even believe you would attempt to make this connection.

If I worked at a sorority house would you say it's like a pedophile working at a day care?

You can believe homosexuality is a sin all you want and your welcome to state that but your repeated comparisons between it a pedophilia are infuriating.


One more note, you may not like it that I took two sentences out of your entire statement but if you want people to address the point your trying to make I'd suggest avoiding making side comments like that. It's hard to take your opinions seriously when you throw crap like this in there.

So....get infuriated. Then lighten up Francis.

[SoonerAtKU]

Thanks KU. Wasn't exactly what I was addressing but I appreciate it. I wouldn't expect anyone to think it was cool.

My angle is the media hypocrisy of downplaying and ignoring.

You know, the sad part is that there is likely a small minority that quietly approves of this or thinks the FRC had it coming. It's more proof that radicals and sympathizers are more similar than they are different, regardless of their political or religious stripes.

[Midtowner]

You know, the sad part is that there is likely a small minority that quietly approves of this or thinks the FRC had it coming. It's more proof that radicals and sympathizers are more similar than they are different, regardless of their political or religious stripes.

Who is that "likely small minority"?

I'm sure there's someone out there, but this is basically a terrorist act. Anyone who supports it is in no uncertain terms, wrong.

[jkjsooner]

You know, the sad part is that there is likely a small minority that quietly approves of this or thinks the FRC had it coming. It's more proof that radicals and sympathizers are more similar than they are different, regardless of their political or religious stripes.


You have no proof that the "small minority" exists.
You then go on to draw grand conclusions based on what you yourself consider a small minority.


Add these two together and you pretty much said a lot about nothing. Is that the thought process you go through when formulating your opinions?

I don't doubt that a small minority exists but do us a favor and at least find one before you draw sweeping conclusions. You'll still be wrong but at least you'll be half way to formulating a rational opinion.

[C&CDean]

Who is that "likely small minority"?

I'm sure there's someone out there, but this is basically a terrorist act. Anyone who supports it is in no uncertain terms, wrong.

I'd have to say all those liberal loonies you see everywhere wishing death/horrible things to anyone religious/conservative/etc. In short, your people.

[SoonerorLater]

You have no proof that the "small minority" exists.
You then go on to draw grand conclusions based on what you yourself consider a small minority.


Add these two together and you pretty much said a lot about nothing. Is that the thought process you go through when formulating your opinions?

I don't doubt that a small minority exists but do us a favor and at least find one before you draw sweeping conclusions. You'll still be wrong but at least you'll be half way to formulating a rational opinion.

Here we go.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=gay+activists+visiting+white+house&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=997&bih=611&tbm=isch&tbnid=SaYx4KXY-18nwM:&imgrefurl=http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/stimulus/2012/jun/22/gay-pride-white-house-philadelphia-gays-gone-wild/&docid=l4zumj8W8Pi3-M&imgurl=http://media.washtimes.com/media/community/viewpoint/entry/2012/06/23/GLBT-activists-at-white-house-640_s640x427.jpg%253F73b8e21685896c3f2859310aaa5ad b253919b641&w=640&h=427&ei=vIctUJyKDKOCyAHwmoDgDg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=374&sig=100562091413402310934&page=1&tbnh=126&tbnw=205&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:81&tx=80&ty=67

[SoonerProphet]

the SLPC classifies the FRC as a "hate" group.

[soonercruiser]

I'll say it right now. That's despicable, wrong-headed, and shameful. Anyone claiming to be "enlightened" in this discussion should condemn this act and anyone who supports it.

Does that help, L-cubed?


THIS^^^^^
The problem with the LW media!
Thank GOD that they are becoming more irrelevant with every day passing day!

[jkjsooner]

Here we go.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=gay+activists+visiting+white+house&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=997&bih=611&tbm=isch&tbnid=SaYx4KXY-18nwM:&imgrefurl=http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/stimulus/2012/jun/22/gay-pride-white-house-philadelphia-gays-gone-wild/&docid=l4zumj8W8Pi3-M&imgurl=http://media.washtimes.com/media/community/viewpoint/entry/2012/06/23/GLBT-activists-at-white-house-640_s640x427.jpg%253F73b8e21685896c3f2859310aaa5ad b253919b641&w=640&h=427&ei=vIctUJyKDKOCyAHwmoDgDg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=374&sig=100562091413402310934&page=1&tbnh=126&tbnw=205&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:81&tx=80&ty=67

So you have evidence that these people approved of what that guy did? Those people are disrespectful but it's quite a stretch to say they approved of the shooting.

And, anyway, you clearly missed the point. You assumed the existence of a small minority and then stereotyped an entire group based on this small minority. The ridiculous thing is that the term "small minority" was your own words. Your own words contradict your conclusion!

[sooner n houston]

the SLPC classifies the FRC as a "hate" group.

Well, that makes it ok then!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Easy, when a Progressive or Liberal thinker perpetrates it against a Conservative or religious group.

[SoonerorLater]

So you have evidence that these people approved of what that guy did? Those people are disrespectful but it's quite a stretch to say they approved of the shooting.

And, anyway, you clearly missed the point. You assumed the existence of a small minority and then stereotyped an entire group based on this small minority. The ridiculous thing is that the term "small minority" was your own words. Your own words contradict your conclusion!


I didn't use the term "small minority" but anybody with a lick of sense understands that a sub-group exists. This is quote from the guy on the left of the photo.



“Yeah, f–k Reagan,” reiterates Hart one week after the reception. “Ronald Reagan has blood on his hands. The man was in the White House as AIDS exploded, and he was happy to see plenty of gay men and queer people die. He was a murderous fool, and I have no problem saying so. Don’t invite me back. I don’t care.”



Most reasonable people would intuitively understand this guys actions and words denote an acceptance of "by any means necessary"

[Soonerjeepman]

You and I both know that even if the same wounds had been accrued, if it had been the scenario I described with the reverse, it would be on every network and people would be screaming about the hate coming from Christians and talk radio.

So I don't buy that it was because of the lesser severity of wounds. Sorry.

no doubt....

I'm so sick and tired of the "homophobic" word...I'm NOT scared of homosexuals...I don't BELIEVE in their life style...ugh...

we need a new term

Christianphobism....!

[yermom]

no doubt....

I'm so sick and tired of the "homophobic" word...I'm NOT scared of homosexuals...I don't BELIEVE in their life style...ugh...

we need a new term

Christianphobism....!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-q4z0m9us2_8/TxQ1vLM1EBI/AAAAAAAAAWY/X5-O4GBQNoA/s1600/ostrich-head-in-sand.jpg

???

[C&CDean]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-q4z0m9us2_8/TxQ1vLM1EBI/AAAAAAAAAWY/X5-O4GBQNoA/s1600/ostrich-head-in-sand.jpg

???

??? on your ???

[yermom]

i can understand not agreeing with it, but not believing in it?

in caps no less ;)

[C&CDean]

Well to be honest, I don't believe in it either. I mean I know people do it, but I just can't believe somebody actually likes a dick in his butt/mouth. I guess I should say "I don't get it" rather than I don't believe in it. To each their own and all, no phobia, etc., but it is very weird to me.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

You and I both know that even if the same wounds had been accrued, if it had been the scenario I described with the reverse, it would be on every network and people would be screaming about the hate coming from Christians and talk radio.

So I don't buy that it was because of the lesser severity of wounds. Sorry.I suspect badger can't accept just how vial the left is, and what a double standard they have. It's like no decision or conclusion can be made regarding the continued behavior of the 2 polar opposite camps, or as to whether one of them is wrong, and the other maybe not so much.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

...this is basically a terrorist act. Anyone who supports it is in no uncertain terms, wrong.bravo!

[jkjsooner]

I didn't use the term "small minority" but anybody with a lick of sense understands that a sub-group exists. This is quote from the guy on the left of the photo.

Sorry, I didn't realize it wasn't responding to SoonerKU. He was the one who said "small minority" and then preceded to draw conclusions that could not be drawn from a small minority.

BTW, I even said that there are probably sympathizers who agree with what the guy did. You, however, have not done anything to prove that those who acted childishly at the White House are among that group. I'd dare say since their grievances were specifically directed towards Reagan that they don't support this guy who did the shooting. Just because you or I may think they're horrible doesn't mean we can assume that they support a person who shot another person.

[jkjsooner]

Well to be honest, I don't believe in it either. I mean I know people do it, but I just can't believe somebody actually likes a dick in his butt/mouth. I guess I should say "I don't get it" rather than I don't believe in it. To each their own and all, no phobia, etc., but it is very weird to me.

That is exactly the reason I will argue for homosexuals here. I know that no straight man would become a homosexual simply because of sexual depravity. it is just completely against our nature. The fact that my sexual drive towards women is not something I chose. It is just fundamentally who I am.

That leads me to believe that there is something fundamentally different between them and you and I when it comes to sexual desires.

Arguing that these people have a choice is arguing against the very nature of our own sexuality.

[jkjsooner]

I suspect badger can't accept just how vial the left is, and what a double standard they have. It's like no decision or conclusion can be made regarding the continued behavior of the 2 polar opposite camps, or as to whether one of them is wrong, and the other maybe not so much.

I know how you work. If a person takes on one or two liberal positions (social safety net, etc) they are a liberal in your eyes. I've seen you say that here on more than one occasion.

That makes it even more ironic when you stereotype all liberals based on the opinions of a few.

I do believe in a limited social safety net. That makes me a liberal. But I also don't believe that hate crimes should be a separately defined crime. I also believe that if you are going to define it you need to be consistent in your use of it. I imagine your head is about to explode as it contradicts all the stereotypes you've built up in your mind...

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I know how you work. If a person takes on one or two liberal positions (social safety net, etc) they are a liberal in your eyes. I've seen you say that here on more than one occasion.

That makes it even more ironic when you stereotype all liberals based on the opinions of a few.

I do believe in a limited social safety net. That makes me a liberal. But I also don't believe that hate crimes should be a separately defined crime. I also believe that if you are going to define it you need to be consistent in your use of it. I imagine your head is about to explode as it contradicts all the stereotypes you've built up in your mind...not quite. Badger consistently treats liberal positions as equally valid with conservative positions. I just think she's somewhat unwilling to condemn behaviors that are apparently wrong.

About you, meh...you might be the just jk guy from that other board. In which case, your comments are expected, and boring.

[badger]

I suspect badger can't accept just how vial the left is, and what a double standard they have. It's like no decision or conclusion can be made regarding the continued behavior of the 2 polar opposite camps, or as to whether one of them is wrong, and the other maybe not so much.
Nah, I just strongly believe that he (or she, hehe) who is without sin should cast the first stone, and since Republicans are guilty of double-standards as well, I feel that it is wrong for me to go crazy when I see Democrat double-standards.

"how vial the left is"

I have family, neighbors, co-workers, friends, etc. who are Democrat voters and I don't find them to be tiny bottles... oh wait, I think you meant "vile," hehe :)


I know how you work. If a person takes on one or two liberal positions (social safety net, etc) they are a liberal in your eyes. I've seen you say that here on more than one occasion.
I am definitely more liberal than Rush Clone is. But then again, Rush Limbaugh is not my clone. Thus, I think he could label me "liberal" and I wouldn't be offended.


Badger consistently treats liberal positions as equally valid with conservative positions. I just think she's somewhat unwilling to condemn behaviors that are apparently wrong.
Let me be clear: I think it is wrong to do what this Chick Fil A bag toting gunman did and I hope that the security guard who was shot makes a speedy recovery. I am not justifying what the gunman did by any means. What he did was WRONG and I fully CONDEMN that behavior!

As for "equally valid" liberal and conservative positions, I don't really think I'm like that, but rather, try to see from others' perspectives. For example, when a Poke fan hops on our board and is like "OSU NUMBA ONE NEW FOOTBALL SHOW" I'll be all like "Bawwww, he's so cute. He loves his orange team" rather than "Grrrrrrr ban immediately"

In any event, I hope all posters of SF.com, liberal and conservative, Republican and Democrat, have a wonderful weekend!

Moderates? Eff you guys you can go to hell. :P

[Skysooner]

Well to be honest, I don't believe in it either. I mean I know people do it, but I just can't believe somebody actually likes a dick in his butt/mouth. I guess I should say "I don't get it" rather than I don't believe in it. To each their own and all, no phobia, etc., but it is very weird to me.

I don't get it either honestly. However, I have a couple of cousins that are gay, and it was pretty evident early on that they were (talking 7 or 8). My wife has been teaching for a number of years. She teaches 1st/2nd grade, and her first students are in their mid-20s now. Every now and then she would come home and say so and so is gay and they just don't know it yet. Now they are FB friends, and lo and behold they are. I fully believe that it is something you are born with in the vast majority of cases. I don't see condemning or hating anyone for something they can't exactly help. Hate the sin and not the sinner really irks me too as if there is a God who made people this way then how can God condemn that. I think it is a cop out and just makes it easy for people that dislike anyone different from themselves to discriminate. Remember that the Bible was used many years ago to justify slavery, and the thought of slavery is anathema to most people. This will be the same way in the not too distant future.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Badger, you're a peach...no, a mammal. Woops, vile it is!


RUSH LIMBAUGH is not my clone, either, but he agrees with me on almost everything i've heard him say, yet. And, he's funny as hell, AND he drives the Libs over the top, even for them.

[SoonerorLater]

I don't get it either honestly. However, I have a couple of cousins that are gay, and it was pretty evident early on that they were (talking 7 or 8). My wife has been teaching for a number of years. She teaches 1st/2nd grade, and her first students are in their mid-20s now. Every now and then she would come home and say so and so is gay and they just don't know it yet. Now they are FB friends, and lo and behold they are. I fully believe that it is something you are born with in the vast majority of cases. I don't see condemning or hating anyone for something they can't exactly help. Hate the sin and not the sinner really irks me too as if there is a God who made people this way then how can God condemn that. I think it is a cop out and just makes it easy for people that dislike anyone different from themselves to discriminate. Remember that the Bible was used many years ago to justify slavery, and the thought of slavery is anathema to most people. This will be the same way in the not too distant future.

People can and have used the Bible as everything from a doorstop to a justification for murder but that doesn't mean it's a proper use or interpretation of the Bible. I have never been a big fan of the "he who is without sin" school of thought as it has often been interpreted.

There is a difference between prediliection and manifest action. You may be born with a desire but the desire and acting on the desire are two different things.

[LiveLaughLove]

I don't get it either honestly. However, I have a couple of cousins that are gay, and it was pretty evident early on that they were (talking 7 or 8). My wife has been teaching for a number of years. She teaches 1st/2nd grade, and her first students are in their mid-20s now. Every now and then she would come home and say so and so is gay and they just don't know it yet. Now they are FB friends, and lo and behold they are. I fully believe that it is something you are born with in the vast majority of cases. I don't see condemning or hating anyone for something they can't exactly help. Hate the sin and not the sinner really irks me too as if there is a God who made people this way then how can God condemn that. I think it is a cop out and just makes it easy for people that dislike anyone different from themselves to discriminate. Remember that the Bible was used many years ago to justify slavery, and the thought of slavery is anathema to most people. This will be the same way in the not too distant future.

Not going to get in to an apologetics discussion here, but what irks me is people misusing Christian doctrine. What you just stated there pertaining to the Bible is just flat ignorant of the Bible and where Christianity stands on things.

I will say this, as with most things in this world, the view that God "created" homosexuals or any sinners for that matter is upside down. God created man in perfection, but gave him the free will required for free love of God. Man took that free will and corrupted himself through voluntary sin. Now we are born sinners. We are all born with all manner of sin, but not because God "created" us that way.

As for slavery, yes some supposed Christians used the Bible that way. But many many more true Christians are the reason slavery ended when it did. It was preachers preaching against the evils of slavery from the pulpit that led to the abolishon of slavery. But once more, we get blamed for slavery, but not credited for ending it.

[Skysooner]

Not going to get in to an apologetics discussion here, but what irks me is people misusing Christian doctrine. What you just stated there pertaining to the Bible is just flat ignorant of the Bible and where Christianity stands on things.

I will say this, as with most things in this world, the view that God "created" homosexuals or any sinners for that matter is upside down. God created man in perfection, but gave him the free will required for free love of God. Man took that free will and corrupted himself through voluntary sin. Now we are born sinners. We are all born with all manner of sin, but not because God "created" us that way.

As for slavery, yes some supposed Christians used the Bible that way. But many many more true Christians are the reason slavery ended when it did. It was preachers preaching against the evils of slavery from the pulpit that led to the abolishon of slavery. But once more, we get blamed for slavery, but not credited for ending it.

Totally agree. A majority did work for this. There are always misguided people. Since I am not one that believes in a God anymore, I have no issues with homosexuality. It is what it is. It hurts noone and discrimination in any form says more to me about the discriminator than the one being discriminated against.

[SCOUT]

It's weird that a thread about a gay guy who tried to kill people because of their Christian beliefs has moved to a need for defending Christian thought.

[yermom]

how much detail has actually come out on this?

was he planning on shooting a bunch of people, or did he just get into a fight with the security guard?

[SCOUT]

An FBI affidavit quotes 28-year-old Floyd Lee Corkins II of Herndon telling the guard, “I don’t like your politics” as he pulled a 9mm Sig Sauer pistol from a backpack he had carried with him on Metrorail from East Falls Church.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/mother-of-security-guard-shot-in-dc-happy-to-hear-him-called-hero/2012/08/16/531ed060-e7a1-11e1-8487-64e4b2a79ba8_story.html

[SoonerorLater]

It's weird that a thread about a gay guy who tried to kill people because of their Christian beliefs has moved to a need for defending Christian thought.

Not really. Christian thought process is the nexus of the hatred of militant gays. They absolutely despise the fact their behavior is represented as immoral.

[jkjsooner]

not quite. Badger consistently treats liberal positions as equally valid with conservative positions. I just think she's somewhat unwilling to condemn behaviors that are apparently wrong.

About you, meh...you might be the just jk guy from that other board. In which case, your comments are expected, and boring.

There actually a JK guy on this board. I can promise you I am neither the other guy on this board or whoever you are talking about.

[jkjsooner]

duplicate

[jkjsooner]

I don't get it either honestly. However, I have a couple of cousins that are gay, and it was pretty evident early on that they were (talking 7 or 8). My wife has been teaching for a number of years. She teaches 1st/2nd grade, and her first students are in their mid-20s now. Every now and then she would come home and say so and so is gay and they just don't know it yet. Now they are FB friends, and lo and behold they are. I fully believe that it is something you are born with in the vast majority of cases. I don't see condemning or hating anyone for something they can't exactly help. Hate the sin and not the sinner really irks me too as if there is a God who made people this way then how can God condemn that. I think it is a cop out and just makes it easy for people that dislike anyone different from themselves to discriminate. Remember that the Bible was used many years ago to justify slavery, and the thought of slavery is anathema to most people. This will be the same way in the not too distant future.

Same here. Have a gay cousin. (I have about 20 first cousins.). We knew he was gay when he was four or five. He used to play Madonna and pretend he was her. Whether he was born the way he was or life experience did it, he was destined to be gay long before he could have made a choice and long before he could have even known what homosexuality was.

[yermom]

same here. we were all in denial, apparently.

[okie52]

I don't get it either honestly. However, I have a couple of cousins that are gay, and it was pretty evident early on that they were (talking 7 or 8). My wife has been teaching for a number of years. She teaches 1st/2nd grade, and her first students are in their mid-20s now. Every now and then she would come home and say so and so is gay and they just don't know it yet. Now they are FB friends, and lo and behold they are. I fully believe that it is something you are born with in the vast majority of cases. I don't see condemning or hating anyone for something they can't exactly help. Hate the sin and not the sinner really irks me too as if there is a God who made people this way then how can God condemn that. I think it is a cop out and just makes it easy for people that dislike anyone different from themselves to discriminate. Remember that the Bible was used many years ago to justify slavery, and the thought of slavery is anathema to most people. This will be the same way in the not too distant future.

Are these kissing cousins, sky?

[okie52]

Same here. Have a gay cousin. (I have about 20 first cousins.). We knew he was gay when he was four or five. He used to play Madonna and pretend he was her. Whether he was born the way he was or life experience did it, he was destined to be gay long before he could have made a choice and long before he could have even known what homosexuality was.

Knew he was gay at 4 or 5? Good Lord, he was already thinking about a dick up his azz back then?

[jkjsooner]

Knew he was gay at 4 or 5? Good Lord, he was already thinking about a dick up his azz back then?

No he did not know he wanted a dick up his azz. Read my post. He was extremely effeminate at a very early age. He'd rather play with dolls than with GI Joe's. He pretended he was Madonna.

My guess is you think "being gay" is just choice of a sexual deviant. Because of this you are incapable of understanding what I meant by "knew he was gay."

Is there a chance that he would not have ended up being gay? I suppose. There are always exceptions. Would I have been shocked if he turned out straight. Absolutely. I've yet to see a person who was like him who I didn't find out was gay later on.

I guess I'm guilty of stereotyping but the result is that I am willing to grant a gay person the recognition that their homosexuality is fundamentally who they are rather than a choice they made.

Don't fool yourself into thinking the anti-gay crowd doesn't make their own assumptions based on a person's masculine or effeminate behavior.

[jkjsooner]

same here. we were all in denial, apparently.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you implying that I said, "same here" as if I was admitting to being gay?

I'll defend gay's rights any day but that doesn't mean I'll put up with B.S like someone twisting my words around to imply that I am a homosexual.

If I misunderstood your point then I'll apologize in advance.

[Skysooner]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you implying that I said, "same here" as if I was admitting to being gay?

I'll defend gay's rights any day but that doesn't mean I'll put up with B.S like someone twisting my words around to imply that I am a homosexual.

If I misunderstood your point then I'll apologize in advance.

I actually think yermom was saying he had gay relatives as well that were known early and that we were all in denial they were. I could be wrong, but that is how I took it.

On Okie52's post, I found that to be hopefully tongue in cheek but in bad taste. Did you know at 4 or 5 what you wanted to do sexually with women? We have these genetic things within us that makes certain things just very difficult if not impossible to change. They are just born different, and there are signs they are going to be gay. Do you dislike people that are left-handed? That is pretty much the same thing as disliking someone for being gay. Honestly I'm not comfortable around the lifestyle or the sometime natural flamboyance of some gay people. I still will defend their right to be who they are.

[okie52]

No he did not know he wanted a dick up his azz. Read my post. He was extremely effeminate at a very early age. He'd rather play with dolls than with GI Joe's. He pretended he was Madonna.

My guess is you think "being gay" is just choice of a sexual deviant. Because of this you are incapable of understanding what I meant by "knew he was gay."

Is there a chance that he would not have ended up being gay? I suppose. There are always exceptions. Would I have been shocked if he turned out straight. Absolutely. I've yet to see a person who was like him who I didn't find out was gay later on.

I guess I'm guilty of stereotyping but the result is that I am willing to grant a gay person the recognition that their homosexuality is fundamentally who they are rather than a choice they made.

Don't fool yourself into thinking the anti-gay crowd doesn't make their own assumptions based on a person's masculine or effeminate behavior.

Sorry, I thought you said he knew he was gay at 4 or 5. My bad.

No I don't think gays have a choice on their sexual orientation but I think everyone has a choice on what they choose to do sexually. I don't care whether a gay person marries another gay or just hangs out in bath houses.

[jkjsooner]

I actually think yermom was saying he had gay relatives as well that were known early and that we were all in denial they were. I could be wrong, but that is how I took it.

Your probably right and I owe yermom an apology.


On Okie52's post, I found that to be hopefully tongue in cheek but in bad taste. Did you know at 4 or 5 what you wanted to do sexually with women? We have these genetic things within us that makes certain things just very difficult if not impossible to change. They are just born different, and there are signs they are going to be gay. Do you dislike people that are left-handed? That is pretty much the same thing as disliking someone for being gay. Honestly I'm not comfortable around the lifestyle or the sometime natural flamboyance of some gay people. I still will defend their right to be who they are.

The left/right handed analogy is a good one. We don't choose to be right or left handed. A left handed person can pretend to be right handed (and maybe even fool themselves for a while) but sooner or later they're going to have to come to grips with the fact that they are different from most people.

That worst thing a gay person can do is be in denial and marry a woman to prove their heterosexuality. That destroys families.

As for flamboyance, I think some of that is a reaction to the way society treats gays. (/pretending to know what i'm talking about)

[yermom]

yeah, my cousin is gay, and apparently my grandmother was the only one that knew. none of us had really been around any of teh gays before that.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

http://mimg.ugo.com/201104/7/3/1/187137/cuts/cartman-silly-hate-crime_480_poster.jpg
.

[SCOUT]

The left/right handed analogy is a good one. We don't choose to be right or left handed. A left handed person can pretend to be right handed (and maybe even fool themselves for a while) but sooner or later they're going to have to come to grips with the fact that they are different from most people.
Some schools in the 50's "corrected" left handedness. My Dad was left handed and had to learn how to do things with his other hand. The result? He was a wicked basketball player who was basically ambidextrous. He was also a switch hitter in baseball and could field with either hand. He had a scholarship from Syracuse for B-Ball and a contract from the Cardinals for baseball. You might say that forcing him to learn the norm actually helped him.

Given your position, you may want to pick another analogy.

[olevetonahill]

Some schools in the 50's "corrected" left handedness. My Dad was left handed and had to learn how to do things with his other hand. The result? He was a wicked basketball player who was basically ambidextrous. He was also a switch hitter in baseball and could field with either hand. He had a scholarship from Syracuse for B-Ball and a contract from the Cardinals for baseball. You might say that forcing him to learn the norm actually helped him.

Given your position, you may want to pick another analogy.

Since the advent of the Computer and the Mouse I have learned to masturbate left handed

Is that kinda what ya mean?

[SCOUT]

Since the advent of the Computer and the Mouse I have learned to masturbate left handed

Is that kinda what ya mean?
Sort of Vet. You are describing more of an efficiency though. My point was that natural inclination is just that, an inclination.

[Chuck Bao]

I disagree with everyone posting in this thread so far.

I see hate crimes as something like ethnic cleansing in the old Yugoslavia – terrorizing a minority through violence in an effort to drive them out of the local community. I’m not really sure how the reverse of that applies.

I know that some people really hate on reverse discrimination. That is only fair. At the same time, I believe that we shouldn’t give much leeway in terms of violence against and intimidation of minorities. Any attempt to equivocate by saying go to the back of the bus and just shut the **** up doesn’t really work for me.

One small town in Oklahoma has always been known as “any African-American found in the town after nightfall is in serious trouble”. That very old saying is supported by the fact that the town’s school system refused to accept any African-American kid living at the Baptist Village which falls within its school district. Now, that school system supposedly won’t accept kids of Mexican descent. Obviously, that is not a hate crime but what on god’s green earth are we teaching our kids?

At least the gays don’t have to worry about skin pigmentation. I know that many mean well in saying that there is no choice for gays. I think that is true. On the other hand, I don’t ever remember playing with dolls or none of that stereotypical stuff. My gay friends are scientists, farmers, artists, teachers, doctors, lawyers, blue and white collar workers. Does anyone else think that it’s odd how that works out? No, me neither.

[okie52]

http://mimg.ugo.com/201104/7/3/1/187137/cuts/cartman-silly-hate-crime_480_poster.jpg
.


I disagree with everyone posting in this thread so far.

I see hate crimes as something like ethnic cleansing in the old Yugoslavia – terrorizing a minority through violence in an effort to drive them out of the local community. I’m not really sure how the reverse of that applies.

I know that some people really hate on reverse discrimination. That is only fair. At the same time, I believe that we shouldn’t give much leeway in terms of violence against and intimidation of minorities. Any attempt to equivocate by saying go to the back of the bus and just shut the **** up doesn’t really work for me.

One small town in Oklahoma has always been known as “any African-American found in the town after nightfall is in serious trouble”. That very old saying is supported by the fact that the town’s school system refused to accept any African-American kid living at the Baptist Village which falls within its school district. Now, that school system supposedly won’t accept kids of Mexican descent. Obviously, that is not a hate crime but what on god’s green earth are we teaching our kids?

At least the gays don’t have to worry about skin pigmentation. I know that many mean well in saying that there is no choice for gays. I think that is true. On the other hand, I don’t ever remember playing with dolls or none of that stereotypical stuff. My gay friends are scientists, farmers, artists, teachers, doctors, lawyers, blue and white collar workers. Does anyone else think that it’s odd how that works out? No, me neither.

Sheet, Chuck, you didn't have a Barbie at 4 or 5?

Hate crime =thought crime=PC at its most retarded

[jkjsooner]

Some schools in the 50's "corrected" left handedness. My Dad was left handed and had to learn how to do things with his other hand. The result? He was a wicked basketball player who was basically ambidextrous. He was also a switch hitter in baseball and could field with either hand. He had a scholarship from Syracuse for B-Ball and a contract from the Cardinals for baseball. You might say that forcing him to learn the norm actually helped him.

Given your position, you may want to pick another analogy.

I would bet your dad's example isn't the norm.

[Skysooner]

I disagree with everyone posting in this thread so far.

I see hate crimes as something like ethnic cleansing in the old Yugoslavia – terrorizing a minority through violence in an effort to drive them out of the local community. I’m not really sure how the reverse of that applies.

I know that some people really hate on reverse discrimination. That is only fair. At the same time, I believe that we shouldn’t give much leeway in terms of violence against and intimidation of minorities. Any attempt to equivocate by saying go to the back of the bus and just shut the **** up doesn’t really work for me.

One small town in Oklahoma has always been known as “any African-American found in the town after nightfall is in serious trouble”. That very old saying is supported by the fact that the town’s school system refused to accept any African-American kid living at the Baptist Village which falls within its school district. Now, that school system supposedly won’t accept kids of Mexican descent. Obviously, that is not a hate crime but what on god’s green earth are we teaching our kids?

At least the gays don’t have to worry about skin pigmentation. I know that many mean well in saying that there is no choice for gays. I think that is true. On the other hand, I don’t ever remember playing with dolls or none of that stereotypical stuff. My gay friends are scientists, farmers, artists, teachers, doctors, lawyers, blue and white collar workers. Does anyone else think that it’s odd how that works out? No, me neither.

This is fair. I'm against all discrimination (reverse or otherwise). The guy who did this was an asshat no matter his motives. It actually could be that the only gays that I really knew about early in life were the ones that were "obvious". I also know many from my adult experiences that are of course no different than anybody else in terms of profession, socioeconomic, etc. I just don't like any discrimination whether it is gender, race, sexual orientation, left/right handedness, eye color, etc. If I don't like someone it is usually because of a personality conflict more than anything else.

[jkjsooner]

At least the gays don’t have to worry about skin pigmentation. I know that many mean well in saying that there is no choice for gays. I think that is true. On the other hand, I don’t ever remember playing with dolls or none of that stereotypical stuff. My gay friends are scientists, farmers, artists, teachers, doctors, lawyers, blue and white collar workers. Does anyone else think that it’s odd how that works out? No, me neither.

If you go back and read my post you'll see that I never said that all or even most homosexuals played with dolls as a child or were feminine. You're turning my statements around and making a claim I did not make.

What I did say is that from my experience if you think someone is gay at an early age often they end up that way. I think this is strong evidence that at least for some gay people the choice was made for them long before they knew what sexuality was.

Let's be honest here. Many of us had crushes in kindergarten. There were definitely a couple of girls I liked at that age. I sure didn't know about heterosexuality and homosexuality or even sexuality at that age but I had natural instincts that drove my behaviors.

I also want to say that I am not at all encouraging treating a kid who plays with dolls any differently than other kids or making an overt assumption that he will be gay. Treat the child with the respect he deserves and let him be himself but if he does turn out to be gay don't bury your head in the sand and pretend he made that choice as an adult when the signs indicate that that wasn't the case.

[okie52]

If you go back and read my post you'll see that I never said that all or even most homosexuals played with dolls as a child or were feminine. You're turning my statements around and making a claim I did not make.

What I did say is that from my experience if you think someone is gay at an early age often they end up that way. I think this is strong evidence that at least for some gay people the choice was made for them long before they knew what sexuality was.

I also want to say that I am not at all encouraging treating a kid who plays with dolls any differently than other kids or making an overt assumption that he will be gay. Treat the child with the respect he deserves and let him be himself but if he does turn out to be gay don't bury your head in the sand and pretend he made that choice as an adult when the signs indicate that that wasn't the case.

Hmmm...so should you buy your son a hollywood barbie set at age 7 or 8 if he wants one? How about a dress?

[jkjsooner]

Hmmm...so should you buy your son a hollywood barbie set at age 7 or 8 if he wants one? How about a dress?

That's a tough question and one I hope I don't have to answer. I will say this. I will always love and support my child.

When I said let them be who they are, I wasn't talking letting them wear a dress to school. I would draw a line somewhere for my own child's sake.

[okie52]

That's a tough question and one I hope I don't have to answer. I will say this. I will always love and support my child.

When I said let them be who they are, I wasn't talking letting them wear a dress to school. I would draw a line somewhere for my own child's sake.

Ahh, but wouldn't that "repression" be psychologically damaging to them at such a formative age?

[SoonerAtKU]

Sorry, I didn't realize it wasn't responding to SoonerKU. He was the one who said "small minority" and then preceded to draw conclusions that could not be drawn from a small minority.

BTW, I even said that there are probably sympathizers who agree with what the guy did. .

I think you may be misreading me here. I'm 100% in support of gay rights equality in all forms. With your second sentence here, we're saying the same thing, that there is a small minority of sympathizers who think this was a positive step. I'm saying that those people are wrong, in my opinion, and that I don't condone shooting anyone.

[jkjsooner]

Ahh, but wouldn't that "repression" be psychologically damaging to them at such a formative age?

Maybe. I don't know. That's why I hope I'm never confronted with such a situation. I'd probably make him conform to social norms and let him know that when he gets older I'll support any clothing decision he makes.

If you're trying to get me to say there is an absolute right and wrong answer to something like this you're fishing in the wrong place.

I'm sorry I said I'd let him be who he is. I didn't know that that was going to lead to the Spanish inquisition.

[okie52]

Maybe. I don't know. That's why I hope I'm never confronted with such a situation. I'd probably make him conform to social norms and let him know that when he gets older I'll support any clothing decision he makes.

If you're trying to get me to say there is an absolute right and wrong answer to something like this you're fishing in the wrong place.

I'm sorry I said I'd let him be who he is. I didn't know that that was going to lead to the Spanish inquisition.

You said you could tell a boy was gay at 4 or 5...what about a tomboy?

And what about these bisexuals?....how do you spot them early on?



Jk with you...I don't have any answers for it either, jkj.

[Skysooner]

I have 2 sons. One is autistic but also girl crazy and a sports nut. The other played 2 seasons of t-ball and hated it. He is my academic and doesn't really seem to notice girls at this point (entering 8th grade). Both are completely different, and I love them both. If my youngest turns out to be gay (not sure at this point but doubting it), it won't matter at all. My autistic son is one of the most popular kids among students and teachers while the youngest is very quiet but top of his class and well-respected. We raised both of them the same way but allowed them to find their own path. I believe this is also what jkjsooner is saying.

Okie52, your comments went beyond tongue-in-cheek on this.

[okie52]

I have 2 sons. One is autistic but also girl crazy and a sports nut. The other played 2 seasons of t-ball and hated it. He is my academic and doesn't really seem to notice girls at this point (entering 8th grade). Both are completely different, and I love them both. If my youngest turns out to be gay (not sure at this point but doubting it), it won't matter at all. My autistic son is one of the most popular kids among students and teachers while the youngest is very quiet but top of his class and well-respected. We raised both of them the same way but allowed them to find their own path. I believe this is also what jkjsooner is saying.

Okie52, your comments went beyond tongue-in-cheek on this.

Maybe to the point of irreverent? I'm comfortable with that.

[jkjsooner]

I have 2 sons. One is autistic but also girl crazy and a sports nut. The other played 2 seasons of t-ball and hated it. He is my academic and doesn't really seem to notice girls at this point (entering 8th grade). Both are completely different, and I love them both. If my youngest turns out to be gay (not sure at this point but doubting it), it won't matter at all. My autistic son is one of the most popular kids among students and teachers while the youngest is very quiet but top of his class and well-respected.

This is way off topic but this post is very timely and inspiring to me.

My almost three year old has been in speech therapy for about six months. We've been waiting for him to turn a corner but it just doesn't seem to happen. Every blue moon he'll surprise us with a 2 or 3 word sentence but it's rare.

He's in a Spanish immersion daycare. We figured it would be great for him to be exposed to a second language and all the kids there seem to thrive well in the environment.

We had a parent/teacher conference at daycare yesterday and they expressed a lot of concerns over his development and they were very clear that their concerns extended beyond speech. Now we're probably facing a mild Autism diagnosis. Nobody has used that word yet but you can kind of read between the lines.

Anyway, your post turned a bad day into a much better one. It really makes my day to hear how well your son is doing.

[LiveLaughLove]

I pray everything is ok with your child, jkj.

Now back to the topic at hand at least for the moment.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/08/20/The-Atlantic-Wants-to-Kill-Boy-Scouts-Like-Rabid-Dogs

It seems a health writer for The Atlantic isn't satisfied with this guy trying to kill people at the FRC, he now wants to kill Boy Scouts.

He likens them to Ol' Yeller. Once good, but now needs to be put down. Unreal.

Someone remind me who those are spewing hate rhetoric. I seem to have misplaced it.

[Skysooner]

This is way off topic but this post is very timely and inspiring to me.

My almost three year old has been in speech therapy for about six months. We've been waiting for him to turn a corner but it just doesn't seem to happen. Every blue moon he'll surprise us with a 2 or 3 word sentence but it's rare.

He's in a Spanish immersion daycare. We figured it would be great for him to be exposed to a second language and all the kids there seem to thrive well in the environment.

We had a parent/teacher conference at daycare yesterday and they expressed a lot of concerns over his development and they were very clear that their concerns extended beyond speech. Now we're probably facing a mild Autism diagnosis. Nobody has used that word yet but you can kind of read between the lines.

Anyway, your post turned a bad day into a much better one. It really makes my day to hear how well your son is doing.

Thanks jkj. Everything is a haul from here. Still the more therapy you can get him the better (also the earlier the better). A good school system with special education teachers is paramount. We go out of our way to buy into good school districts when we move (which is all too frequently). He has thrived and has turned out to be quite the popular guy. He is always going to be different, and it is fairly evident to anyone who knows special needs kids, but he never meets a stranger. Mild autism is one of those things that can have many different effects on the child, and there is no one size fits all. However with good early intervention, they can live fairly normal lives and be independent. He drove a car for the first time today with his mom, but it is likely he won't be able to ever drive one on the streets for real. Still it was fun to see the video she shot of it. He is just entering his sophomore year, and there is now a large picture of him hanging in the school that says something along the lines of "Some people want it to happen. Some people try to make it happen. Some people make it happen". He shows a picture of him shooting a 3 pointer in a special needs basketball league. He hit 3 back to back up and down the floor that night with almost 600 people watching. Good times.

It is a blessing having a child with special needs. They will make you grow in ways that you would never think about.