Bloomberg: The immigration debate

[okie52]

Bloomberg seeks to ignite election debate on immigration, says newcomers to US key to economy


08-14-2012 10:20 AM CDT

CHICAGO (Associated Press) --
New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg wants to ignite debate over immigration among the presidential contenders.

Bloomberg joined former White House Chief of Staff William Daley on Tuesday in addressing business leaders in Chicago, telling them that immigrants and the jobs and businesses they create are essential to America's economic recovery.

Bloomberg says he knows of no other way to help the economy "as quickly and cost free" as opening the borders to those who would start up new businesses that create new jobs.

Bloomberg and Daley lamented that neither presidential campaign has spelled out proposals on immigration policy.

They also presented a report released Tuesday by a partnership of U.S. mayors and business leaders showing that immigrants started one out of four new businesses last year.

[KantoSooner]

I may be wrong on this, but I really don't think there's much debate that:

A) Some level of immigration is healthy

and,


B) Our current system is horribly broken and needs to fixed so as to give prompt replies to those who are trying to follow the rules.

[TitoMorelli]

I may be wrong on this, but I really don't think there's much debate that:

A) Some level of immigration is healthy

and,


B) Our current system is horribly broken and needs to fixed so as to give prompt replies to those who are trying to follow the rules.

Nor is there much debate that:

A) Bloomberg is an over-zealous manipulative horse's arse

and,

B) He needs to STFU.

[okie52]

I may be wrong on this, but I really don't think there's much debate that:

A) Some level of immigration is healthy

and,


B) Our current system is horribly broken and needs to fixed so as to give prompt replies to those who are trying to follow the rules.

What seems broken is that we have allowed so many illegals to be here.

We have 5-600,000 legal immigrants per year. Do we need more than that? These legal immigrants have followed the rules and are usually educated and/or provide skilled labor while having the ability to speak english. They are also much more cultural diverse than our illegal immigrants.

[okie52]

Nor is there much debate that:

A) Bloomberg is an over-zealous manipulative horse's arse

and,

B) He needs to STFU.

He's for open societies as long as they don't provide 32 oz soft drinks.

[KantoSooner]

What seems broken is that we have allowed so many illegals to be here.

We have 5-600,000 legal immigrants per year. Do we need more than that? These legal immigrants have followed the rules and are usually educated and/or provide skilled labor while having the ability to speak english. They are also much more cultural diverse than our illegal immigrants.

Not debating that. That it takes INS upwards of ten years in many (most?) cases to issue a response is just flat out wrong, though. We ought to give people an answer within, at most, six months. And we should have a guest worker program if there really are jobs that citizens don't want to do. (row crop harvesting, anyone?)
It isn't hard; any reasonably bright high school students could have set up a program decades ago. We've got an unholy pairing of utterly corrupt agri-business concerns on the one hand and crooked leftwing pols on the other.

[okie52]

Not debating that. That it takes INS upwards of ten years in many (most?) cases to issue a response is just flat out wrong, though. We ought to give people an answer within, at most, six months. And we should have a guest worker program if there really are jobs that citizens don't want to do. (row crop harvesting, anyone?)
It isn't hard; any reasonably bright high school students could have set up a program decades ago. We've got an unholy pairing of utterly corrupt agri-business concerns on the one hand and crooked leftwing pols on the other.

I certainly have no problem with improving the efficiency of our processing legal immigrants.

Bloomberg cites 76% of our patents coming from immigrants representing 88 different countries....so I'm not sure he is talking about our 12,000,000 illegals from south of the border when he is wanting to open up immigration. He may be, but those 88 countries aren't south of the border.

Now if the US wanted to focus on the highly educated or super skilled immigrants I might support that if it wasn't displacing our own engineers, tech people, etc...

[KantoSooner]

the 12 million illegals are overwhelmingly from Mexico. Why? It's a relatively poor country and it's close AND there are a lot of American business people who want to hire poor people with zero enforceable rights AND there are other American politicians who want to turn this group into voters who, they feel, will support their little classist/racist agendas.

I have very little complaint with the Mexican illegals. If I were a poor and desperate mexican, I'd probably swin the river, too.

I have a lot to bitch about with the business and political scumbags who've blocked any rational reform for most of my life.

[okie52]

the 12 million illegals are overwhelmingly from Mexico. Why? It's a relatively poor country and it's close AND there are a lot of American business people who want to hire poor people with zero enforceable rights AND there are other American politicians who want to turn this group into voters who, they feel, will support their little classist/racist agendas.

I have very little complaint with the Mexican illegals. If I were a poor and desperate mexican, I'd probably swin the river, too.

I have a lot to bitch about with the business and political scumbags who've blocked any rational reform for most of my life.

I have a bitch about illegals when I see them demanding their rights.

I would probably do the same as them if I was a poor Mexican/hispanic but it wouldn't make it right.

I have a big bitch about employers hiring them, too, and a president that sought to overturn an AZ law that would have punished these employers. (luckily the SC upheld the law).

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Bloomberg is a POS, he is meaningless.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I may be wrong on this, but I really don't think there's much debate that:

A) Some level of immigration is healthy

and,


B) Our current system is horribly broken and needs to fixed so as to give prompt replies to those who are trying to follow the rules.

This, I can't for the life of me figure out how people with a beef with the broken system of immigration and stopping illegal immigration has become people against all forms of immigration and against legal immigrants by the LSM and the "Progressives". Mind boggling.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Not debating that. That it takes INS upwards of ten years in many (most?) cases to issue a response is just flat out wrong, though. We ought to give people an answer within, at most, six months. And we should have a guest worker program if there really are jobs that citizens don't want to do. (row crop harvesting, anyone?)
It isn't hard; any reasonably bright high school students could have set up a program decades ago. We've got an unholy pairing of utterly corrupt agri-business concerns on the one hand and crooked leftwing pols on the other.

How can anyone have a reasonable plan with O'Bummer's hand picked lesbo (NTTAWWT) head of Homeland Security while she busy pandering to her "tennis partner" and insulting and humiliating career ICE male careers...

[Midtowner]

I have very little complaint with the Mexican illegals. If I were a poor and desperate mexican, I'd probably swin the river, too.

I have a lot to bitch about with the business and political scumbags who've blocked any rational reform for most of my life.

We have to put U.S. Citizens first at all costs. This country is not a charity. When Lincoln said the government was "for the people," I don't think that was untrue. It's not racist OR classist to insist that citizens and non-citizens be treated differently. It's not xenophobic either, it's pragmatic.

Both sides of the aisle want illegals for various reasons. For Democrats, they see another minority they can claim ownership of and then ignore. For Republicans, illegals are like their crack. The rich and powerful overseers of the party use it over and over, but know at the end of the day, it's going to kill them, but they still keep coming back for more.

So we have gridlock until...well...I don't know. It's going to be a long time before anyone talks about real immigration reform when we have a presidential ballot offering a choice between Romney and Obama.

[pphilfran]

We have to put U.S. Citizens first at all costs. This country is not a charity. When Lincoln said the government was "for the people," I don't think that was untrue. It's not racist OR classist to insist that citizens and non-citizens be treated differently. It's not xenophobic either, it's pragmatic.

Both sides of the aisle want illegals for various reasons. For Democrats, they see another minority they can claim ownership of and then ignore. For Republicans, illegals are like their crack. The rich and powerful overseers of the party use it over and over, but know at the end of the day, it's going to kill them, but they still keep coming back for more.

So we have gridlock until...well...I don't know. It's going to be a long time before anyone talks about real immigration reform when we have a presidential ballot offering a choice between Romney and Obama.
Sums things up nicely....

[badger]

I wish Mexico was more stable. Then, we'd just have a relationship with them like we do Canada. Or at least, the immigrants from central and South America might be tempted to just stop there instead of continuing north to Texas.

Mexico has tons of things that would make you think it would succeed --- it has hard working people, it has tons of shoreline and good temperatures for tourism, it's located right next to the greatest country in the world, it just won the Olympic gold medal for soccer.... come on, Mexico. Hold up your end of the Rio Grande, please.

[rock on sooner]

I wish Mexico was more stable. Then, we'd just have a relationship with them like we do Canada. Or at least, the immigrants from central and South America might be tempted to just stop there instead of continuing north to Texas.

Mexico has tons of things that would make you think it would succeed --- it has hard working people, it has tons of shoreline and good temperatures for tourism, it's located right next to the greatest country in the world, it just won the Olympic gold medal for soccer.... come on, Mexico. Hold up your end of the Rio Grande, please.

Just a dose of realism here, Mexico is also the most violent, corrupt
country in the Americas, the drug cartels run more of the country than
the elected government does.

[ictsooner7]

I have a bitch about illegals when I see them demanding their rights.

I would probably do the same as them if I was a poor Mexican/hispanic but it wouldn't make it right.

I have a big bitch about employers hiring them, too, and a president that sought to overturn an AZ law that would have punished these employers. (luckily the SC upheld the law).

Looks like you and I are on the same page on this one.

Illegal immigrants should not get ANY government benefits, I know they don't get much, but what little they get should be cut off.

No more free medical care, shifting the cost to those of us who have insurance.

Illegal immigrants drive wages down for a lot more workers than those who are competing for jobs with them.

If I was the president, I wouldn't build a single fence. I'd have just enough boarder guards to alert our military if Mexico invades us, then I would fine each company $100,000 for each illegal worker they have - even if they don't know if they are illegal. If the company is driven out of business because of the fines - so be it.

[okie52]

Looks like you and I are on the same page on this one.

Illegal immigrants should not get ANY government benefits, I know they don't get much, but what little they get should be cut off.

No more free medical care, shifting the cost to those of us who have insurance.

Illegal immigrants drive wages down for a lot more workers than those who are competing for jobs with them.

If I was the president, I wouldn't build a single fence. I'd have just enough boarder guards to alert our military if Mexico invades us, then I would fine each company $100,000 for each illegal worker they have - even if they don't know if they are illegal. If the company is driven out of business because of the fines - so be it.

We pretty much agree. On the employers I'd want a standard established for verification...whether that's everify or something even better. I'd also mandate communication between state agencies and institutions like hospitals and schools to notify ICE should an illegal be discovered.

Wages would most definitely rise in the lower income areas with the reduction/removal of illegals.

[pphilfran]

Looks like you and I are on the same page on this one.

Illegal immigrants should not get ANY government benefits, I know they don't get much, but what little they get should be cut off.

No more free medical care, shifting the cost to those of us who have insurance.

Illegal immigrants drive wages down for a lot more workers than those who are competing for jobs with them.

If I was the president, I wouldn't build a single fence. I'd have just enough boarder guards to alert our military if Mexico invades us, then I would fine each company $100,000 for each illegal worker they have - even if they don't know if they are illegal. If the company is driven out of business because of the fines - so be it.

Good post...

[ictsooner7]

We pretty much agree. On the employers I'd want a standard established for verification...whether that's everify or something even better. I'd also mandate communication between state agencies and institutions like hospitals and schools to notify ICE should an illegal be discovered.

Wages would most definitely rise in the lower income areas with the reduction/removal of illegals.

We would have to do the standard ID, the schools just not let them go to class, hospitals - stablize them then send a bill to the county they come from then ship them home.

Wages would go up for a lot more than just folks at the low income ranges because there would be less workers for up the income ladder so they would have to pay more for better employees.

Oh - i forgot about stopping drug smuggling............of course legalizing pot would bring a halt to most of that.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Looks like you and I are on the same page on this one.

Illegal immigrants should not get ANY government benefits, I know they don't get much, but what little they get should be cut off.

No more free medical care, shifting the cost to those of us who have insurance.

Illegal immigrants drive wages down for a lot more workers than those who are competing for jobs with them.

If I was the president, I wouldn't build a single fence. I'd have just enough boarder guards to alert our military if Mexico invades us, then I would fine each company $100,000 for each illegal worker they have - even if they don't know if they are illegal. If the company is driven out of business because of the fines - so be it.

I cannot agree with you more...

[okie52]

Wages would go up for a lot more than just folks at the low income ranges because there would be less workers for up the income ladder so they would have to pay more for better employees.

Maybe, but I'm really thinking that once the price was right a number of people living off unemployment/welfare etc... would work for a higher wage that they aren't willing to work for current wages.

If it moved wages higher for people up the ladder so be it. Right now the bottom is artificially low.

[KantoSooner]

Please understand that when I say I have no bitch with illegals, I'm talking about them as people. In their shoes, I'd do much the same. It doesn't make them righteous, but it means that they are not likely to 'self deport' or otherwise resolve the situation.

It's a bit like drug dealers: IF THEY COULDN'T GET JOBS, THEY WOULDN'T COME. No? WHO'S EMPLOYING THEM?

As to Mexico's innate corruption; I think the case of Columbia is instructive. 25 years ago the place was a failed state on a par with Pakistan or Afghanistan. It's far from perfect now, but dayum, what a long road of progress. Mexico can, and I believe will, do the same.

When I grew up (long, but not THAT long ago) you could drive down into Mexico from any of the border states. And people did. For dove hunting. For bass fishing. For shopping. For lunch and dinner for crying out loud. And it was FUN! Can anyone imagine that today?

but then again, 30 years ago, could anyone have imagined tourism in Cambodia?

[pphilfran]

No doubt that wages would go up...at least into the lower middle class...I don't think that is really a bad thing...

[okie52]

No doubt that wages would go up...at least into the lower middle class...I don't think that is really a bad thing...

Me either...particularly when you don't have to raise minimum wage or by some other artificial means to do it.

[pphilfran]

Please understand that when I say I have no bitch with illegals, I'm talking about them as people. In their shoes, I'd do much the same. It doesn't make them righteous, but it means that they are not likely to 'self deport' or otherwise resolve the situation.

It's a bit like drug dealers: IF THEY COULDN'T GET JOBS, THEY WOULDN'T COME. No? WHO'S EMPLOYING THEM?

As to Mexico's innate corruption; I think the case of Columbia is instructive. 25 years ago the place was a failed state on a par with Pakistan or Afghanistan. It's far from perfect now, but dayum, what a long road of progress. Mexico can, and I believe will, do the same.

When I grew up (long, but not THAT long ago) you could drive down into Mexico from any of the border states. And people did. For dove hunting. For bass fishing. For shopping. For lunch and dinner for crying out loud. And it was FUN! Can anyone imagine that today?

but then again, 30 years ago, could anyone have imagined tourism in Cambodia?

My dad took me to Lake- Guerrero in the mid 70's...caught more bass than I could ever imagine...shot a mountain of white wing while we were there...

I hooked this one big azz bass and our guide was yelling "GRANDE! GRANDE!"

The damn fish wrapped my line around a tree stump...so the guide dove in and pulled that big sob out by hand...that was service...

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Some of y'all must have been absent from ECON 101, the day the professor talked about the cost of doing business.

If the electricity company started charging businesses more for lectricity and simultaneously became a less reliable supplier, it would hurt businesses -- perhaps causing some to go out of business or decrease business activity.

Higher costs inhibit economic activity.

Likewise, if the labor market is tightened so that labor is more expensive and less reliable, it hurts business.


Business owners and their managers, not government bureaucrats, are the most qualified to make business decisions.

Business owners should not have an obligation to hire the least productive members of society at a higher pay than the market dictates. If poor people want to put down the bag of oreos and the crack pipe, get a job cleaning toilets, picking cherries, or mowing lawns, then they can get off the couch and work for what they are worth. Nobody owes them a job, especially for more than what their labor is worth. If 3 billion other people in this world can do something more efficiently than you and is willing to do it for minimum wage then your labor is not worth more than minimum wage.

[olevetonahill]

jaun, we will ALWAYS have the Illegals ,not a dayum thing we can do about it.
The only downside is if they get caught they get sent home so they can sneak back across.

The Illegals became a major prob after Johnsons Great Society crap
I had an Uncle that i never thot much of, He QUIT his ****in job because and I quote" I can make more on welfare than I can working" . His son once made the statement that " I cant wait to be old enough to get married and have a bunch of kids, and get welfare"

These type people are too lazy to ever go in the fields and do the harvest if they dont have to to survive.

There was an article about Alabama after they passed their Law about hiring the Illegals Bussed a bunch of folk out from the cities to pick some crops
most every one of em said **** this **** and went home

So unless we get rid of the freeloaders on Welfare and just help those truly in need we will continue to have the problem. I remember back in the 50s an 60s in Cal. the Mexicans came for the harvest then went home. Now they stay

[jkjsooner]

The Illegals became a major prob after Johnsons Great Society crap
I had an Uncle that i never thot much of, He QUIT his ****in job because and I quote" I can make more on welfare than I can working" . His son once made the statement that " I cant wait to be old enough to get married and have a bunch of kids, and get welfare"

I don't think this is where we are today. Welfare was greatly reduced under Clinton. Some of these welfare talking points remain even though they are no longer valid.

From Wikipedia:



In 1996, the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act changed the structure of Welfare payments and added new criteria to states that received Welfare funding. After reforms, which President Clinton said would "end Welfare as we know it," amounts from the federal government were given out in a flat rate per state based on population. Each state must meet certain criteria to ensure recipients are being encouraged to work themselves out of Welfare. The new program is called Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF). It encourages states to require some sort of employment search in exchange for providing funds to individuals, and imposes a five-year lifetime limit on cash assistance.

[LiveLaughLove]

We have to put U.S. Citizens first at all costs. This country is not a charity. When Lincoln said the government was "for the people," I don't think that was untrue. It's not racist OR classist to insist that citizens and non-citizens be treated differently. It's not xenophobic either, it's pragmatic.

Both sides of the aisle want illegals for various reasons. For Democrats, they see another minority they can claim ownership of and then ignore. For Republicans, illegals are like their crack. The rich and powerful overseers of the party use it over and over, but know at the end of the day, it's going to kill them, but they still keep coming back for more.

So we have gridlock until...well...I don't know. It's going to be a long time before anyone talks about real immigration reform when we have a presidential ballot offering a choice between Romney and Obama.

Checking to see if hell just froze over. I agree 100%.

[olevetonahill]

I don't think this is where we are today. Welfare was greatly reduced under Clinton. Some of these welfare talking points remain even though they are no longer valid.

From Wikipedia:

I will admit I dont have a clue as to how it works now, But still think more should be done to curb it
JMHO

[jkjsooner]

I will admit I dont have a clue as to how it works now, But still think more should be done to curb it
JMHO

I did also find this:


Establishing a Five Year Lifetime Limit on Assistance: To address long-term welfare dependency, TANF placed a five year lifetime limit on assistance, but allowed states to exempt up to 20 percent of such cases for hardship reasons. States are allowed to reduce this lifetime limit below 5 years, and almost half of the states have done so.

So it is possible to get assistance for more than five years if the particular state allowed it (but no more than 20% of cases).

We do still have food stamps and child care help but people can't just live on welfare like they could at one time.

Now there are some abuses of SS benefits for the disabled that needs to be reigned in.

[olevetonahill]

So yer sayin the AFDC deal is gone?

Like I said I aint kept up with this so If its all reformed and ****, Ill STFU about it.

[cleller]

Just a dose of realism here, Mexico is also the most violent, corrupt
country in the Americas, the drug cartels run more of the country than
the elected government does.


Looks like you and I are on the same page on this one.

Illegal immigrants should not get ANY government benefits, I know they don't get much, but what little they get should be cut off.

No more free medical care, shifting the cost to those of us who have insurance.

Illegal immigrants drive wages down for a lot more workers than those who are competing for jobs with them.

If I was the president, I wouldn't build a single fence. I'd have just enough boarder guards to alert our military if Mexico invades us, then I would fine each company $100,000 for each illegal worker they have - even if they don't know if they are illegal. If the company is driven out of business because of the fines - so be it.

The crazy part is how people that are far apart on a lot of issues can find points they agree on with this topic.

You have to worry when the country the immigrants are coming from is incredibly violent and unstable.

You also must cut the head off the beast more. Force people to stop employing illegals. Punish them. Big fines. Prison. That's what changes illegal practices.

[pphilfran]

Some of y'all must have been absent from ECON 101, the day the professor talked about the cost of doing business.

If the electricity company started charging businesses more for lectricity and simultaneously became a less reliable supplier, it would hurt businesses -- perhaps causing some to go out of business or decrease business activity.

Higher costs inhibit economic activity.

Likewise, if the labor market is tightened so that labor is more expensive and less reliable, it hurts business.


Business owners and their managers, not government bureaucrats, are the most qualified to make business decisions.

Business owners should not have an obligation to hire the least productive members of society at a higher pay than the market dictates. If poor people want to put down the bag of oreos and the crack pipe, get a job cleaning toilets, picking cherries, or mowing lawns, then they can get off the couch and work for what they are worth. Nobody owes them a job, especially for more than what their labor is worth. If 3 billion other people in this world can do something more efficiently than you and is willing to do it for minimum wage then your labor is not worth more than minimum wage.

What does econ 101 have to do with illegal workers in the workforce?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

What does econ 101 have to do with illegal workers in the workforce?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market

[pphilfran]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market

Which section discusses using illegal immigrants as a labor force?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Which section discusses using illegal immigrants as a labor force?

Where did Bloomberg and Daley advocate the use of illegal immigrants? They are advocating facilitating the flow of immigrants into the U.S., presumably legally, for economic reasons.

But to answer your question ...

In mainstream economics, the concept of a market is any structure that allows buyers and sellers to exchange any type of goods, services and information. Markets allow any tradable item to be evaluated and priced.

The word "any" would include those exchanging labor for money, illegally present or not. See: Black Market.

[KantoSooner]

While I don't advocate factoring in illegal immigrants in a 'model' economy, it makes no sense to exclude them in understanding the economy we've got.Right now, illegals make up something like 4% of the workforce (yes, the numbers are HIGHLY arguable, but they are somethng like 6 million workers in a workforce of something like 150 million.)
Since they are concentrated at the low income end of the spectrum, they do have an impact on wages, job availability and on productivity (they work harder, longer and cost less than legals - thus, from an economic standpoint, they're more productive).
We can't ignore them and apparently we aren't willing to physically bar them, so we're going to have to come to grips with them.

Guest worker visas, e-verify and workplace regulation seem like about the only course to me.

[okie52]

Where did Bloomberg and Daley advocate the use of illegal immigrants? They are advocating facilitating the flow of immigrants into the U.S., presumably legally, for economic reasons.

But to answer your question ...

In mainstream economics, the concept of a market is any structure that allows buyers and sellers to exchange any type of goods, services and information. Markets allow any tradable item to be evaluated and priced.

The word "any" would include those exchanging labor for money, illegally present or not. See: Black Market.

Be sure and use the real costs of illegals...not just their low pay when the tax payers are picking up a big chunk of the tab for the illegals and employers. I guess you get that in econ 102.

[Midtowner]

Just a dose of realism here, Mexico is also the most violent, corrupt
country in the Americas, the drug cartels run more of the country than
the elected government does.

Once we're out of Afghanistan, I'd love to see the President saying to Mexico: "Fix it, or we are going to invade."

Why on Earth are we fighting wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan over potential national security threats when the biggest threat to this country's solvency and sovereignty is right next door?

[rock on sooner]

I lived and worked in El Paso a few years back, running a couple
of fair sized appliance stores. We advertised heavily in El Diario,
Juarez's newspaper because los Mexicanos would come across to
shop with green money, buy in bulk (e.g. 13 refrigerators, 13 Sony
TV's, etc.) 13 was the number because 12 were for "family and friends"
and 1 was for the border guard going back across, to look the other way
because of Mexican import duties. Elected officials tried to stop it but
one or two would show up headless somewhere and the rest would stop
bothering with it.

It has escalated beyond comprehension now and the cartels roll merrily
along. To Mid's point about invading, well, the cartels are as heavily
armed as most armies, better informed and far more ruthless, so it'd
be a helluva fight...jus sayin...

[okie52]

I lived and worked in El Paso a few years back, running a couple
of fair sized appliance stores. We advertised heavily in El Diario,
Juarez's newspaper because los Mexicanos would come across to
shop with green money, buy in bulk (e.g. 13 refrigerators, 13 Sony
TV's, etc.) 13 was the number because 12 were for "family and friends"
and 1 was for the border guard going back across, to look the other way
because of Mexican import duties. Elected officials tried to stop it but
one or two would show up headless somewhere and the rest would stop
bothering with it.

It has escalated beyond comprehension now and the cartels roll merrily
along. To Mid's point about invading, well, the cartels are as heavily
armed as most armies, better informed and far more ruthless, so it'd
be a helluva fight...jus sayin...

Leveling Juarez would be a good thing for Mexico and the US.

[Midtowner]

To Mid's point about invading, well, the cartels are as heavily armed as most armies, better informed and far more ruthless, so it'd be a helluva fight...jus sayin...

Also, for some reason, the Mexican people are pretty nationalistic (I'm not sure what they have to be proud of) and would probably not stomach boots on the ground.

[rock on sooner]

Leveling Juarez would be a good thing for Mexico and the US.

At any given time, Jaurez has between 1 and 3 million people there,
that work in the maquiladoras building goods for the US. Leveling
the city would be a shock to the business heart of a bunch of US
companies, not sure how long it'd take us to recover....

[rock on sooner]

At any given time, Jaurez has between 1 and 3 million people there,
that work in the maquiladoras building goods for the US. Leveling
the city would be a shock to the business heart of a bunch of US
companies, not sure how long it'd take us to recover....

As to pride, well, they have WORLD CLASS tequila..:welcoming:

[pphilfran]

Where did Bloomberg and Daley advocate the use of illegal immigrants? They are advocating facilitating the flow of immigrants into the U.S., presumably legally, for economic reasons.

But to answer your question ...

In mainstream economics, the concept of a market is any structure that allows buyers and sellers to exchange any type of goods, services and information. Markets allow any tradable item to be evaluated and priced.

The word "any" would include those exchanging labor for money, illegally present or not. See: Black Market.

So you are saying a Black Market system is good?

[pphilfran]

While I don't advocate factoring in illegal immigrants in a 'model' economy, it makes no sense to exclude them in understanding the economy we've got.Right now, illegals make up something like 4% of the workforce (yes, the numbers are HIGHLY arguable, but they are somethng like 6 million workers in a workforce of something like 150 million.)
Since they are concentrated at the low income end of the spectrum, they do have an impact on wages, job availability and on productivity (they work harder, longer and cost less than legals - thus, from an economic standpoint, they're more productive).
We can't ignore them and apparently we aren't willing to physically bar them, so we're going to have to come to grips with them.

Guest worker visas, e-verify and workplace regulation seem like about the only course to me.

A well thought out post....

[okie52]

At any given time, Jaurez has between 1 and 3 million people there,
that work in the maquiladoras building goods for the US. Leveling
the city would be a shock to the business heart of a bunch of US
companies, not sure how long it'd take us to recover....

Yeah my son was at Ft Bliss for about 4 years so we made a number of trips to El Paso...just having to look across the border at that eyesore called Juarez would be enough to justify an urban cleansing just south of the river. Met a number of fine cabbies from Juarez that would be happy to take you south of the river even if you didn't intend to go there.

Somehow I think the US would recover nicely from the absence of Juarez...one benefit would be not having to use troops to patrol around that **** hole as their violence spills over into El Paso.

[okie52]

While I don't advocate factoring in illegal immigrants in a 'model' economy, it makes no sense to exclude them in understanding the economy we've got.Right now, illegals make up something like 4% of the workforce (yes, the numbers are HIGHLY arguable, but they are somethng like 6 million workers in a workforce of something like 150 million.)
Since they are concentrated at the low income end of the spectrum, they do have an impact on wages, job availability and on productivity (they work harder, longer and cost less than legals - thus, from an economic standpoint, they're more productive).
We can't ignore them and apparently we aren't willing to physically bar them, so we're going to have to come to grips with them.

Guest worker visas, e-verify and workplace regulation seem like about the only course to me.

Their wages are lower but their costs are higher if they were citizens. Even as illegals the taxpayers foot the bill for a number of benefits that substantially raises their actual costs to this country beyond their wages...the taxpayers are picking up the tab for the illegals and their employers.

Why aren't we going to physically bar them? Many states have/are trying to bar them. Only a lack of leadership has allowed these invaders to be the problem they are now.

[pphilfran]

This is going to add fuel to the fire...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/15/us-birth-rate_n_1779960.html

U.S. Birth Rate Not High Enough To Keep Population Stable

Thanks to the weak economy, Americans are having fewer babies than the British and the French -- not enough to maintain the size of the U.S. population, according to the Economist.

The U.S. birth rate now is 1.9 births per woman over her lifetime, when 2 births per woman is necessary to keep the population stable. The birth rate has been plunging since the recession started in 2007 and fell below population-sustaining levels in 2010. It's projected to fall to a 25-year low this year and not recover to pre-recession levels anytime soon, according to the consulting firm Demographic Intelligence.

Many young Americans are postponing starting their own families because they are struggling to stay afloat. Some 22 percent of 18- to 34-year-olds say they have delayed having a baby because of the weak economy, and another 20 percent have delayed getting married, according to a recent survey by the Pew Research Center. Roughly one in four adults in that same age range have moved back in with their parents during the economic downturn, after living on their own.

And because of their worse earnings prospects, a growing number of young Americans are getting priced out of having kids. While Americans' incomes have failed to recover from the recession, the cost of raising a child keeps rising. It will cost a middle-income family nearly $300,000 to raise a child born today from infancy to age 17, when accounting for projected inflation, according to the Department of Agriculture.

[okie52]

This is going to add fuel to the fire...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/15/us-birth-rate_n_1779960.html

U.S. Birth Rate Not High Enough To Keep Population Stable

Thanks to the weak economy, Americans are having fewer babies than the British and the French -- not enough to maintain the size of the U.S. population, according to the Economist.

The U.S. birth rate now is 1.9 births per woman over her lifetime, when 2 births per woman is necessary to keep the population stable. The birth rate has been plunging since the recession started in 2007 and fell below population-sustaining levels in 2010. It's projected to fall to a 25-year low this year and not recover to pre-recession levels anytime soon, according to the consulting firm Demographic Intelligence.

Many young Americans are postponing starting their own families because they are struggling to stay afloat. Some 22 percent of 18- to 34-year-olds say they have delayed having a baby because of the weak economy, and another 20 percent have delayed getting married, according to a recent survey by the Pew Research Center. Roughly one in four adults in that same age range have moved back in with their parents during the economic downturn, after living on their own.

And because of their worse earnings prospects, a growing number of young Americans are getting priced out of having kids. While Americans' incomes have failed to recover from the recession, the cost of raising a child keeps rising. It will cost a middle-income family nearly $300,000 to raise a child born today from infancy to age 17, when accounting for projected inflation, according to the Department of Agriculture.

Hallelujah!!!!

[pphilfran]

Hallelujah!!!!

I knew you would get a woody over that article...

The downside is that we will here even more about increasing immigration to make up for the "shortfall"..I would be fine with increased legal immigration...

[okie52]

I knew you would get a woody over that article...

The downside is that we will here even more about increasing immigration to make up for the "shortfall"..I would be fine with increased legal immigration...

Not me. I like the population going down to about half of where we are now.

5-600,000 legal immigrants a year are plenty for me although I would hope we would be very selective about the type of immigrant we allow to come here. Highly educated, specialty skills, etc...engineers, ITtechs, DR.s, etc...

[pphilfran]

Not me. I like the population going down to about half of where we are now.

5-600,000 legal immigrants a year are plenty for me although I would hope we would be very selective about the type of immigrant we allow to come here. Highly educated, specialty skills, etc...engineers, ITtechs, DR.s, etc...

I understand and I agree with being picky about who gets a chance at citizenship...

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Not me. I like the population going down to about half of where we are now.

5-600,000 legal immigrants a year are plenty for me although I would hope we would be very selective about the type of immigrant we allow to come here. Highly educated, specialty skills, etc...engineers, ITtechs, DR.s, etc...


With a declining population it is likely the GDP would usually decrease from quarter to quarter.

Let's see, two consecutive negative quarters is a recession, and four in a row is a depression.

Okie52 = Mr. Perpetual Depression.


Of course growth can be too fast, but a modest population growth is desirable - maybe 1% per year, which is about 3 million.

We need demand to pump up construction, etc.

[olevetonahill]

With a declining population it is likely the GDP would usually decrease from quarter to quarter.

Let's see, two consecutive negative quarters is a recession, and four in a row is a depression.

Okie52 = Mr. Perpetual Depression.


Of course growth can be too fast, but a modest population growth is desirable - maybe 1% per year, which is about 3 million.

We need demand to pump up construction, etc.

n Bullshat jaun. we need LESS peeps
Folk need to quit ****in and breedin for about 20 years, well at least breedin . Take some of the strain off out natural resources

[SanJoaquinSooner]

So you are saying a Black Market system is good?

Not at all. It is the result of politicians putting their heads in the sand on immigration/visa reform.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

n Bullshat jaun. we need LESS peeps
Folk need to quit ****in and breedin for about 20 years, well at least breedin . Take some of the strain off out natural resources

Well, let's see vet:

Detroit 1950: population 1.85 million

Detroit 2012: population 0.77 million

With a population decrease like that, Detroit must be paradise now with all those extra natural resources layin' around!!!

[SanJoaquinSooner]

We have to put U.S. Citizens first at all costs. This country is not a charity. When Lincoln said the government was "for the people," I don't think that was untrue. It's not racist OR classist to insist that citizens and non-citizens be treated differently. It's not xenophobic either, it's pragmatic.

Both sides of the aisle want illegals for various reasons. For Democrats, they see another minority they can claim ownership of and then ignore. For Republicans, illegals are like their crack. The rich and powerful overseers of the party use it over and over, but know at the end of the day, it's going to kill them, but they still keep coming back for more.

So we have gridlock until...well...I don't know. It's going to be a long time before anyone talks about real immigration reform when we have a presidential ballot offering a choice between Romney and Obama.

Well, I hope all Americans are for putting Americans first, although I don't know what "at all costs" implies.

Take for example, the Houston Rockets hiring a young fellow, a few years ago named Yao Ming. Were they putting Americans first at all costs when they hired him? One could certainly argue that by hiring him, they increased the value of the franchise, ticket sales, t-shirt sales, etc., from which many Americans benefited - from the ownership to the concession stand employees.

On the other hand, Mr. Ming took up a roster spot that may have left some American born basketball player without an NBA job, who as a result didn't have the income to build is mom a new home.

But that's how the market place works. Many winners in this example, but one or more losers. So.... one has to judge impact in the aggregate.

Open labor markets, in the aggregate, benefit the economy. More economic activity.

Nobody wants illegals. Illegals don't want to be illegal. It's just that politicians can't agree on the extent to which aliens can legally enter to visit, to work, and to stay permanently. The lack of compromise gives us a huge black market of labor by default.

It would be easy to solve ... just set up visa kiosks at each of the 325 ports of entry. With our technology we should be able to use biometrics and face recognition technology to screen for terrorists, convicted felons, etc, and to keep track of those who enter with tourist visas or worker visas.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Their wages are lower but their costs are higher if they were citizens. Even as illegals the taxpayers foot the bill for a number of benefits that substantially raises their actual costs to this country beyond their wages...the taxpayers are picking up the tab for the illegals and their employers.

Why aren't we going to physically bar them? Many states have/are trying to bar them. Only a lack of leadership has allowed these invaders to be the problem they are now.

OK, an 18 year old enters as a guest worker. That is $90,000 U.S. taxpayers didn't pay in K-12 educational expenses, yet U.S. taxpayers have the benefit of the guest worker's labor. That's quite a savings.

[okie52]

With a declining population it is likely the GDP would usually decrease from quarter to quarter.

Let's see, two consecutive negative quarters is a recession, and four in a row is a depression.

Okie52 = Mr. Perpetual Depression.


Of course growth can be too fast, but a modest population growth is desirable - maybe 1% per year, which is about 3 million.

We need demand to pump up construction, etc.

SanJuan=perpetual ponzi scheme

[okie52]

OK, an 18 year old enters as a guest worker. That is $90,000 U.S. taxpayers didn't pay in K-12 educational expenses, yet U.S. taxpayers have the benefit of the guest worker's labor. That's quite a savings.

And when he needs hospitalization or has kids (chronic breeders you know)?

[StoopTroup]

Once the Great Wall of Mexico is built, will Jan Brewer and Sheriff Joe be in charge of the Mexican Internment Camps?

[okie52]

Once the Great Wall of Mexico is built, will Jan Brewer and Sheriff Joe be in charge of the Mexican Internment Camps?

Hope so unless they are manning the catapults.

[StoopTroup]

The money President Obama gave GM has gone to developing a fleet of mobile catapults that many think are being hid at Area 51. They are hiding them with piles of marijuana.


http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/uploads/images/article-images/raid2.jpg

[rock on sooner]

Hope so unless they are manning the catapults.

Nah, Joe be using his inmates as ammo for the catapults..his
version of deportation...& Jan be on the firing line..

[okie52]

Well Obama certainly left enough money on the table with GM to fund the fleet.

The problem with obama's catapults is they are pointed towards the US.

[okie52]

Nah, Joe be using his inmates as ammo for the catapults..his
version of deportation...& Jan be on the firing line..

Always liked joes approach and his inmates dressed in pink.

[LiveLaughLove]

When he gave this amnesty, the criteria was supposed to be high school grad or GED equivalent. Well well, wouldn't you know, they decided to lower that standard to just "if you are enrolled" in a GED program or a vo-tech.

That got changed quietly after the big announcement. I wonder why? Maybe because 90% still couldn't have qualified.

This was done for one reason and one reason only, Obama needs votes. He has ingratiated himself in the Hispanic community that doesn't mind illegality, and has made it easier for said illegals to accidentally vote in the election.

"Woops, how did you get in here to vote? Well ok, and your social security number is 123-45-6789. Seems I've seen that one about 45 times today, but hey, I believe you, here's a pre-filled out ballot."

That's it. Period.

[pphilfran]

Well, I hope all Americans are for putting Americans first, although I don't know what "at all costs" implies.

Take for example, the Houston Rockets hiring a young fellow, a few years ago named Yao Ming. Were they putting Americans first at all costs when they hired him? One could certainly argue that by hiring him, they increased the value of the franchise, ticket sales, t-shirt sales, etc., from which many Americans benefited - from the ownership to the concession stand employees.

On the other hand, Mr. Ming took up a roster spot that may have left some American born basketball player without an NBA job, who as a result didn't have the income to build is mom a new home.

But that's how the market place works. Many winners in this example, but one or more losers. So.... one has to judge impact in the aggregate.

Open labor markets, in the aggregate, benefit the economy. More economic activity.

Nobody wants illegals. Illegals don't want to be illegal. It's just that politicians can't agree on the extent to which aliens can legally enter to visit, to work, and to stay permanently. The lack of compromise gives us a huge black market of labor by default.

It would be easy to solve ... just set up visa kiosks at each of the 325 ports of entry. With our technology we should be able to use biometrics and face recognition technology to screen for terrorists, convicted felons, etc, and to keep track of those who enter with tourist visas or worker visas.

lol...nice find...The Onion writes up some great stuff!

Oh...wait....

[SanJoaquinSooner]

When he gave this amnesty, the criteria was supposed to be high school grad or GED equivalent. Well well, wouldn't you know, they decided to lower that standard to just "if you are enrolled" in a GED program or a vo-tech.

That got changed quietly after the big announcement. I wonder why? Maybe because 90% still couldn't have qualified.

This was done for one reason and one reason only, Obama needs votes. He has ingratiated himself in the Hispanic community that doesn't mind illegality, and has made it easier for said illegals to accidentally vote in the election.

"Woops, how did you get in here to vote? Well ok, and your social security number is 123-45-6789. Seems I've seen that one about 45 times today, but hey, I believe you, here's a pre-filled out ballot."

That's it. Period.

No one was granted amnesty.

[pphilfran]

Go Jan, go!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/15/jan-brewer-executive-order_n_1785482.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D193333-

Jan Brewer Signs Executive Order Denying State Benefits To Children Of Undocumented Immigrants

PHOENIX, Aug 15 (Reuters) - Arizona Republican Governor Jan Brewer, in yet another clash with the White House, issued an order on Wednesday barring undocumented immigrants who qualify for temporary legal status in the United States from receiving any state or local public benefits.

The action was a response to relaxed deportation rules issued by the Obama administration on Wednesday.

Brewer, whose state has been at the center of the country's immigration debate, issued an executive order denying state or local benefits to immigrants applying under the new federal immigration rules. The order would bar them from obtaining an Arizona driver's license or a state-issued identification card.

As many as 1.7 million people could qualify for the temporary federal program, which enables certain undocumented immigrants to apply for work permits, Social Security cards and driver's licenses, according to the Pew Hispanic Center.

Applying for "deferred action for child arrivals" permits will shield some young undocumented immigrants from being ousted from the United States for at least two years. In Arizona, officials said an estimated 80,000 undocumented immigrants were eligible to apply.

To qualify, recipients must have been younger than 16 years old upon arrival; currently not older than 30; have lived in the country since June 15, 2007; and have no felony convictions.

Thousands of eager, young undocumented students swamped immigration offices in states with large immigrant populations like California and Texas on Wednesday.

Brewer wrote in the order that the new program "does not confer upon them any lawful or authorized status and does not entitle them to any additional public benefits."

She said she was reaffirming the intent of current Arizona laws, and preventing "significant and lasting impacts on the Arizona budget, its health care system and additional public benefits that Arizona taxpayers fund."

Arizona passed a tough immigration crackdown in 2010 to try to drive undocumented immigrants from the state. In June, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld its most controversial provision requiring police to check the immigration status of people they stop if they suspect they are in the country illegally. The law has yet to be implemented.

Carlos Garcia, director of the grassroots community group Puente in Phoenix, called the governor's move on Wednesday a "mean-spirited attack" on a well-meaning program.

"Brewer has once again put Arizona's name on the map as the epicenter of anti-immigrant racism and hate," Garcia said in a statement. "However, like we have continuously showed throughout her time as governor, the community will stand united against Brewer's latest assault." (Editing by Cynthia Johnston and Stacey Joyce)

[LiveLaughLove]

No one was granted amnesty.

Yeah sure.

[okie52]

Go Jan, go!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/15/jan-brewer-executive-order_n_1785482.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D193333-

Jan Brewer Signs Executive Order Denying State Benefits To Children Of Undocumented Immigrants

PHOENIX, Aug 15 (Reuters) - Arizona Republican Governor Jan Brewer, in yet another clash with the White House, issued an order on Wednesday barring undocumented immigrants who qualify for temporary legal status in the United States from receiving any state or local public benefits.

The action was a response to relaxed deportation rules issued by the Obama administration on Wednesday.

Brewer, whose state has been at the center of the country's immigration debate, issued an executive order denying state or local benefits to immigrants applying under the new federal immigration rules. The order would bar them from obtaining an Arizona driver's license or a state-issued identification card.

As many as 1.7 million people could qualify for the temporary federal program, which enables certain undocumented immigrants to apply for work permits, Social Security cards and driver's licenses, according to the Pew Hispanic Center.

Applying for "deferred action for child arrivals" permits will shield some young undocumented immigrants from being ousted from the United States for at least two years. In Arizona, officials said an estimated 80,000 undocumented immigrants were eligible to apply.

To qualify, recipients must have been younger than 16 years old upon arrival; currently not older than 30; have lived in the country since June 15, 2007; and have no felony convictions.

Thousands of eager, young undocumented students swamped immigration offices in states with large immigrant populations like California and Texas on Wednesday.

Brewer wrote in the order that the new program "does not confer upon them any lawful or authorized status and does not entitle them to any additional public benefits."

She said she was reaffirming the intent of current Arizona laws, and preventing "significant and lasting impacts on the Arizona budget, its health care system and additional public benefits that Arizona taxpayers fund."

Arizona passed a tough immigration crackdown in 2010 to try to drive undocumented immigrants from the state. In June, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld its most controversial provision requiring police to check the immigration status of people they stop if they suspect they are in the country illegally. The law has yet to be implemented.

Carlos Garcia, director of the grassroots community group Puente in Phoenix, called the governor's move on Wednesday a "mean-spirited attack" on a well-meaning program.

"Brewer has once again put Arizona's name on the map as the epicenter of anti-immigrant racism and hate," Garcia said in a statement. "However, like we have continuously showed throughout her time as governor, the community will stand united against Brewer's latest assault." (Editing by Cynthia Johnston and Stacey Joyce)

Hey, we even got a mean-spirited sighting and an anti-immigrant racism and hate. You know she hit the mark.


Go Jan Go!!!!

I wonder how many states will follow such a good lead?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Hey Okie, Catholic Charities is looking for some volunteers to help with the paperwork ...

http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/files/form/i-821d.pdf

[pphilfran]

Hey Okie, Catholic Charities is looking for some volunteers to help with the paperwork ...

http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/files/form/i-821d.pdf

They should save the money and just set up kiosks....

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Go Jan go!

I fail to understand the stupidity of Americans who think people entering the country without authorization is not a bad thing. How the debate got framed in this country about supporting illegal aliens rather thandebating the merits of who or why we allow into the countr borders on treason, IMO.

[pphilfran]

Why should Catholic Charities waste their resources helping the fed/state fill out paperwork that has overloaded the fed/state because of a ruling that the fed has put into place?

[okie52]

Hey Okie, Catholic Charities is looking for some volunteers to help with the paperwork ...

http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/files/form/i-821d.pdf

Thanks for the idea Juan. Imagine how many applications I can lose or ****can as a volunteer.

I might just be able to get a few other friends to "donate" their time.

[cleller]

The money President Obama gave GM has gone to developing a fleet of mobile catapults that many think are being hid at Area 51. They are hiding them with piles of marijuana.


http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/uploads/images/article-images/raid2.jpg

That's just the cover story. That stuff is really for Obama's Choom Gang reunion. Bet his eyes are watering already. No wonder he likes an open border. More Ganja!
Intercepted!

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Go Jan go!

I fail to understand the stupidity of Americans who think people entering the country without authorization is not a bad thing. How the debate got framed in this country about supporting illegal aliens rather thandebating the merits of who or why we allow into the countr borders on treason, IMO.

Everyone thinks it's a bad thing. But congress failed to compromise on how to reform immigration and non-immigrant entry laws, so the laws of supply and demand trumped dysfunctional federal laws.

[pphilfran]

We all know what your idea of compromise....

Set up kiosks...

[okie52]

This Catholic Charities deal could be fun. The one in OKC is located on 15th & Classen. Checking on being a volunteer to help these poor illegals fill out their apps.

Might try to find something close to an ICE uniform (but legal of course) and go past the lines. Watching them scramble would be a riot. LOL.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

We all know what your idea of compromise....

Set up kiosks...


But I'm not in the camp of "automatic path to citizenship." The hardliners in that camp are just as responsible for no reform as the Tom Tancredo crowd.

It should be much easier to get a non-immigrant work visa or a tourist visa for those with immediate family in the U.S.

And phil, if you ever had to go to the U.S. Consulate in Jaurez for visa business, you might better appreciate my kiosks idea.

[okie52]

But I'm not in the camp of "automatic path to citizenship." The hardliners in that camp are just as responible for no reform as the Tom Tancredo crowd.

It should be much easier to get a non-immigrant work visa or a tourist visa for those with immediate family in the U.S.

And phil, if you ever had to go to the U.S. Consulate in Jaurez for visa business, you might better appreciate my kiosks idea.

He11, you go to Juarez Juan? You're a brave soul. They won't even let the troops stationed at Ft Bliss in El Paso go there.

[pphilfran]

How did she have a job to quit?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/17/young-undocumented-immigr_0_n_1795630.html

MIAMI -- Araceli Cortes had made up her mind: After being brought to the U.S. as a child, graduating from high school and attending some college in California, she was going to return to Mexico to pursue her dream of becoming a doctor.

She quit her job, bought an airline ticket and reserved a seat to take a medical school entrance exam.

Then, a week before her departure, President Barack Obama announced that young undocumented immigrants like Cortes would be given the chance to remain in the United States and obtain a work visa. Cortes canceled her ticket and decided to stay.

This week, she and thousands of other immigrants began the application process. But she and many other student immigrants could face some tough obstacles.

"It's not giving me much," Cortes, 20, said. "It's just a two-year permit."

Obama was clear in announcing the order: This was not a path to citizenship, but rather an opportunity to avoid deportation and work.

For the students who are undocumented immigrants and have graduated from college, the new policy means they will have the opportunity to work in their field of study, something they could only do as independent contractors or unpaid interns before.

For younger immigrants like Cortes - as many as 65,000 of whom are estimated to graduate from high school each year - some barriers to earning a college degree will be removed. The main hurdle, however, will remain cost. Federal loans and grants, the largest source of aid for college students, require students to have a green card or U.S. citizenship.

"There's still going to be a challenge for these students to pursue higher education," said Deborah Santiago, co-founder and vice president for policy and research of Excelencia in Education. "I don't think the numbers are going to be high."

Children who are undocumented immigrants have been guaranteed the right to a K-12 education since the 1982 Plyler v. Doe Supreme Court decision.

A growing number of those students are now entering adolescence and early adulthood. They speak English, are part of after-school clubs and sports, and have the same aspirations to attend college as their peers. Yet around the age of 16, they stop having the same opportunities. When most teens get a driver's license, a first job and start thinking about college, illegal immigrant students start to become aware of their status.

"They stay stuck while their friends are moving forward," said Roberto Gonzales, a sociologist at the University of Chicago. "And that has tremendous implications on their own ability to achieve any upward mobility, on issues of self-esteem and on emotional and mental well-being."

The Plyler v. Doe ruling did not address higher education. Rather, individual states and colleges have set their own policies on whether to allow illegal immigrants to attend.

Among undocumented immigrants who are high school graduates between the ages of 18 to 24, 49 percent are in or have attended some college, compared with 76 percent of legal immigrants and 71 percent of U.S.-born residents, according to a Pew Hispanic Center study of 2008 census data.

Jane Slater, who teaches English as a second language at a high school in Redwood City, Calif., said fewer than half of the students who are illegal immigrants at her school go to college.

"There's that sort of hopeless feeling of `Why go?'" she said.

The price of tuition and fees increased 439 percent between 1982 and 2007, while the median family income rose 147 percent, according to the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education. Parent and student loans, grants and scholarships help the average student pay about 55 percent of the cost, according to a report by Sallie Mae, the largest private lender to students.

Students with no legal status in the U.S. have access to just a slice of those resources. Selected private scholarships are often very competitive because of the limited number available. In a few states, they also qualify for state aid. But in most, they end up having to pay significantly higher tuition. Only 12 states allow undocumented immigrants to pay in-state rates.

The majority of those who do enroll attend community colleges but often can afford only one or two classes a semester, or may have to take breaks in order to work full time. That means it takes significantly longer for them to graduate.

Katharine Gin, co-founder and executive director for the Education for Fair Consideration, is optimistic more scholarships from corporations and other funders will become available.

"They were moved by their stories. They felt like they deserved things but said, `How can I justify putting money to these students when they cannot work in the end?'" Gin said. "I think that will change."

Cortes took AP classes in high school and was accepted to every University of California school she applied to. And while California is one of the states that allow undocumented immigrants to pay in-state tuition, she said it was still too expensive. A private school offered her a $14,000 scholarship, but that would have covered only half the annual costs.

She decided to go to community college instead and found a full-time job as a cashier at a car wash to help pay. Like at many community colleges, the classes she needs to enroll in to study medicine - biology, chemistry - fill up quickly and to get in, she needs a higher credit standing. That means taking classes in other subjects, essentially paying for courses that will have little to do with her medical degree.

Frustrated, she started looking for other options. Her father, who lives in Mexico, helped her fill out the paperwork to apply for a medical school there, but because she canceled her plane ticket, she lost her seat for the exam and won't be able to take it again.

Cortes has read through dozens of news articles online and recorded Obama's speech on the White House lawn, watching it repeatedly and trying to figure out what to do.

"He was very specific in saying, Don't think the wrong way about this," she said. "This is nothing for residency or citizenship."

Cortes went to the Mexican Consulate, which put her in touch with an organization, Dream in Mexico, that helps students find educational opportunities in Mexico. She applied to El Tecnologico de Monterrey and is waiting for a reply.

If she gets accepted and is given a scholarship to cover her fees, she's leaning toward going, even though she applied to stay in this country.

Cortes figures she'll save time, money and could still end up practicing medicine one day in the United States.

"As much as I want to stay here and be with my family, I have to think of the future," she said. "I have to think what's best for me."

[pphilfran]

But I'm not in the camp of "automatic path to citizenship." The hardliners in that camp are just as responsible for no reform as the Tom Tancredo crowd.

It should be much easier to get a non-immigrant work visa or a tourist visa for those with immediate family in the U.S.

And phil, if you ever had to go to the U.S. Consulate in Jaurez for visa business, you might better appreciate my kiosks idea.

It shouldn't necessarily be easier...we should allow the number that are needed...and set high standards for those that we use to fill the quota...

[pphilfran]

Why should an illegal be accepted to U of C at in state tuition rates?

[okie52]

Why should an illegal be accepted to U of C at in state tuition rates?

They passed an act a few years ago that gave illegals in CA (I think that have been in a CA school for at least 2 years) that right...the California dream ACT I believe.

Hey Cali is a real juggernaut with fiscal responsibility.

[pphilfran]

Her father, who resides in Mexico....

[pphilfran]

They passed an act a few years ago that gave illegals in CA (I think that have been in a CA school for at least 2 years) that right...the California dream ACT I believe.

Hey Cali is a real juggernaut with fiscal responsibility.

I know...just asking why....

[okie52]

I know...just asking why....

Because they "owe it to them".

[pphilfran]

She went to school here and then was going to haul azz back to Mexico...but then we extend her stay so she might stay...but she misses Daddy so she still might go back to the Motherland...so she applied to El Tecnologico de Monterrey and is waiting for a reply.

The entire story brings tears to my eyes...

[okie52]

She went to school here and then was going to haul azz back to Mexico...but then we extend her stay so she might stay...but she misses Daddy so she still might go back to the Motherland...so she applied to El Tecnologico de Monterrey and is waiting for a reply.

The entire story brings tears to my eyes...


http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af24/okie54/hsipaniccrying.jpg

[pphilfran]

The two of us are such asshats...

[TFSooner]

It should be much easier to get a non-immigrant work visa or a tourist visa for those with immediate family in the U.S.

How would the unions feel about this idea? I think I know the answer, but am open to an honest answer.

[okie52]

The two of us are such asshats...

Heh heh.

[Soonerjeepman]

How did she have a job to quit?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/17/young-undocumented-immigr_0_n_1795630.html

MIAMI -- Araceli Cortes had made up her mind: After being brought to the U.S. as a child, graduating from high school and attending some college in California, she was going to return to Mexico to pursue her dream of becoming a doctor.

She quit her job, bought an airline ticket and reserved a seat to take a medical school entrance exam.

Then, a week before her departure, President Barack Obama announced that young undocumented immigrants like Cortes would be given the chance to remain in the United States and obtain a work visa. Cortes canceled her ticket and decided to stay.

This week, she and thousands of other immigrants began the application process. But she and many other student immigrants could face some tough obstacles.

"It's not giving me much," Cortes, 20, said. "It's just a two-year permit."

Obama was clear in announcing the order: This was not a path to citizenship, but rather an opportunity to avoid deportation and work.

For the students who are undocumented immigrants and have graduated from college, the new policy means they will have the opportunity to work in their field of study, something they could only do as independent contractors or unpaid interns before.

For younger immigrants like Cortes - as many as 65,000 of whom are estimated to graduate from high school each year - some barriers to earning a college degree will be removed. The main hurdle, however, will remain cost. Federal loans and grants, the largest source of aid for college students, require students to have a green card or U.S. citizenship.

"There's still going to be a challenge for these students to pursue higher education," said Deborah Santiago, co-founder and vice president for policy and research of Excelencia in Education. "I don't think the numbers are going to be high."

Children who are undocumented immigrants have been guaranteed the right to a K-12 education since the 1982 Plyler v. Doe Supreme Court decision.

A growing number of those students are now entering adolescence and early adulthood. They speak English, are part of after-school clubs and sports, and have the same aspirations to attend college as their peers. Yet around the age of 16, they stop having the same opportunities. When most teens get a driver's license, a first job and start thinking about college, illegal immigrant students start to become aware of their status.

"They stay stuck while their friends are moving forward," said Roberto Gonzales, a sociologist at the University of Chicago. "And that has tremendous implications on their own ability to achieve any upward mobility, on issues of self-esteem and on emotional and mental well-being."

The Plyler v. Doe ruling did not address higher education. Rather, individual states and colleges have set their own policies on whether to allow illegal immigrants to attend.

Among undocumented immigrants who are high school graduates between the ages of 18 to 24, 49 percent are in or have attended some college, compared with 76 percent of legal immigrants and 71 percent of U.S.-born residents, according to a Pew Hispanic Center study of 2008 census data.

Jane Slater, who teaches English as a second language at a high school in Redwood City, Calif., said fewer than half of the students who are illegal immigrants at her school go to college.

"There's that sort of hopeless feeling of `Why go?'" she said.

The price of tuition and fees increased 439 percent between 1982 and 2007, while the median family income rose 147 percent, according to the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education. Parent and student loans, grants and scholarships help the average student pay about 55 percent of the cost, according to a report by Sallie Mae, the largest private lender to students.

Students with no legal status in the U.S. have access to just a slice of those resources. Selected private scholarships are often very competitive because of the limited number available. In a few states, they also qualify for state aid. But in most, they end up having to pay significantly higher tuition. Only 12 states allow undocumented immigrants to pay in-state rates.

The majority of those who do enroll attend community colleges but often can afford only one or two classes a semester, or may have to take breaks in order to work full time. That means it takes significantly longer for them to graduate.

Katharine Gin, co-founder and executive director for the Education for Fair Consideration, is optimistic more scholarships from corporations and other funders will become available.

"They were moved by their stories. They felt like they deserved things but said, `How can I justify putting money to these students when they cannot work in the end?'" Gin said. "I think that will change."

Cortes took AP classes in high school and was accepted to every University of California school she applied to. And while California is one of the states that allow undocumented immigrants to pay in-state tuition, she said it was still too expensive. A private school offered her a $14,000 scholarship, but that would have covered only half the annual costs.

She decided to go to community college instead and found a full-time job as a cashier at a car wash to help pay. Like at many community colleges, the classes she needs to enroll in to study medicine - biology, chemistry - fill up quickly and to get in, she needs a higher credit standing. That means taking classes in other subjects, essentially paying for courses that will have little to do with her medical degree.

Frustrated, she started looking for other options. Her father, who lives in Mexico, helped her fill out the paperwork to apply for a medical school there, but because she canceled her plane ticket, she lost her seat for the exam and won't be able to take it again.

Cortes has read through dozens of news articles online and recorded Obama's speech on the White House lawn, watching it repeatedly and trying to figure out what to do.

"He was very specific in saying, Don't think the wrong way about this," she said. "This is nothing for residency or citizenship."

Cortes went to the Mexican Consulate, which put her in touch with an organization, Dream in Mexico, that helps students find educational opportunities in Mexico. She applied to El Tecnologico de Monterrey and is waiting for a reply.

If she gets accepted and is given a scholarship to cover her fees, she's leaning toward going, even though she applied to stay in this country.

Cortes figures she'll save time, money and could still end up practicing medicine one day in the United States.

"As much as I want to stay here and be with my family, I have to think of the future," she said. "I have to think what's best for me."

so, MY kids...as a born and bred US Citizens won't get much money to help with $$ of school because their mother and I make too much money..but folks want kids of people who basically work illegally and didn't pay ALL of the taxes because of working for cash...to get money for school...BULL$HIT

[pphilfran]

Purty much....but her father still live in Mexico...

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Why should an illegal be accepted to U of C at in state tuition rates?

Anyone who went to high school in California their last 3 years qualifies for in-state tuition. Even if you permanently reside in East Berlin and send your kids to a Calfornia boarding school they qualify for in-state tuition.

Legality has never been a top priority for admitting college students. Colleges, including OU, routinely admit pot smokers, copyright violators, and underage alcohol consumers.

[pphilfran]

Anyone who went to high school in California their last 3 years qualifies for in-state tuition. Even if you permanently reside in East Berlin and send your kids to a Calfornia boarding school they qualify for in-state tuition.

Legality has never been a top priority for admitting college students. Colleges, including OU, routinely admit pot smokers, copyright violators, and underage alcohol consumers.

Pot smokers, underage drinkers, and copyright violators are not citizens?

We are talking citizenship...not traffic violations...you are completely off track....

[pphilfran]

I want to make my stance clear...

I don't care how we handle those that are currently in the US...it would be nearly impossible and incredibly expensive to round them up and ship them home...

It will also be just as impossible and costly to track those on a pathway to citizenship over any lengthy period of time...we will still have a certain percentage that will not attempt to become legal or won't be eligible to become legal due to past convictions...so we are still on the hook for rounding them up and sending them packing

So either way we lose...

We must stop the onslaught of those coming across the border...we must not allow them the same benefits that US citizens are legally entitled...the fed, states, and cities are on the pathway to fiscal disaster and cannot afford the additional money to harbor undocumented citizens...

E Verify should be used across the board...
Heavy fines to those that hire illegals...
Increased border security...

[okie52]

Anyone who went to high school in California their last 3 years qualifies for in-state tuition. Even if you permanently reside in East Berlin and send your kids to a Calfornia boarding school they qualify for in-state tuition.

Legality has never been a top priority for admitting college students. Colleges, including OU, routinely admit pot smokers, copyright violators, and underage alcohol consumers.

In college I counted on Mexicans to get my pot...

[SanJoaquinSooner]

In college I counted on Mexicans to get my pot...

and that didn't disqualify you from in-state tuition, now did it?

[pphilfran]

and that didn't disqualify you from in-state tuition, now did it?

I have seen some really lame reasoning over the course of time...but trying to equate a US citizen that smokes pot to a person that has illegally entered the country is ridiculous...

I gave you my take on what to do with the situation...you have complained about compromise and getting something together that everyone can buy into...yet you ignore my thoughts and continue to ramble on like the feeble old man that I am...

So I will go into a little more detail...just for you...

I would require heavy fines on companies that employ illegal aliens...is that acceptable?

I would compromise and allow those already in the country to stay here and give them a legitimate shot at becoming legal and productive citizens...is that acceptable?

I would require a background check and those with a felony record would be eliminated...is that acceptable?

I would require them to get a GED if they don't already have one...is that acceptable?

I would require them to learn and understand basic English...is that acceptable?

I would require them to to know the basics on US government and the Constitution...is that acceptable?

I would wave all past missed payments of any taxes...is that acceptable?

I would give em three years to accomplish the above tasks...is that acceptable?

I would require them to meet target goals during those three years...steady progress would be required...is that acceptable?

I would drastically improve our border security so we don't have to go through this same crap a third time...is that acceptable?

I am now going to see what you are made of...gonna see if you continue to spew a bunch a lame rhetoric...

Now is the time to put up or shut up...

[rock on sooner]

In college I counted on Mexicans to get my pot...

Did they come through?

[rock on sooner]

Phil, your post about your requirements is a good one, however,
I'd like to add just a little..
The fines for those who hire should also have jail time..
Felony record holders should be deported immmediately
Missed tax payments should have an IRS administered repayment plan
JMO..

[pphilfran]

Phil, your post about your requirements is a good one, however,
I'd like to add just a little..
The fines for those who hire should also have jail time..
Felony record holders should be deported immmediately
Missed tax payments should have an IRS administered repayment plan
JMO..

As far as jail time I think it may be hard to actually prove who did the hiring or the approval of said hiring...if you have indisputable proof I could compromise and buy in...

I should have put that those with felony should be deported immediately...I agree 100%

Waving of past taxes was a compromise on my part...trying to appease San Joaq..if that is possible...

[pphilfran]

Oh, and I missed a couple of items...

We should make it clear how many green cards are going to be issued each year...how many foreign citizens are going to be accepted into a path to citizenship...put it up front for everyone to see...pick the best of the applicants that will most benefit the US...

And no kiosks at border crossings...

[rock on sooner]

As far as jail time I think it may be hard to actually prove who did the hiring or the approval of said hiring...if you have indisputable proof I could compromise and buy in...

I should have put that those with felony should be deported immediately...I agree 100%

Waving of past taxes was a compromise on my part...trying to appease San Joaq..if that is possible...

It's real easy on jail time, if the illegal was hired then the head
of HR, CEO/pres and a couple more of the top officers guilt by
association. A fine, even a big un, would be viewed just as the
cost of doing business.

IRS is really flexible on tax payments...can do it over the phone,
very small amounts...just make the payments. Now, keep all
this in mind with ima left of center, believe the Tea Party does
far more harm than good and the Sooners will win it all every year!

[rock on sooner]

Oh, and I missed a couple of items...

We should make it clear how many green cards are going to be issued each year...how many foreign citizens are going to be accepted into a path to citizenship...put it up front for everyone to see...pick the best of the applicants that will most benefit the US...

And no kiosks at border crossings...

I think there are already posted quotas on the legals. There is
some classification (name escapes me) that deals with the
highly educated, etc. that would most benefit the US and it
has a quota.

Only kiosks at the border should be manned by very
suspicious, highly qualified, heavily armed uncompromisingly
honest and thorough multilinguals we have.

[okie52]

Did they come through?

Most of the time.

But, just like today, some tried to overstay their welcome.

[pphilfran]

It's real easy on jail time, if the illegal was hired then the head
of HR, CEO/pres and a couple more of the top officers guilt by
association. A fine, even a big un, would be viewed just as the
cost of doing business.

IRS is really flexible on tax payments...can do it over the phone,
very small amounts...just make the payments. Now, keep all
this in mind with ima left of center, believe the Tea Party does
far more harm than good and the Sooners will win it all every year!

if they work for cash how do you know how much they earned? They could be using several different SS #'s when working illegally...I think it could turn into a cluster you know what...like I said I can go along with it but was trying appease the unappeasable... lol

I can't agree to jail the CEO of X Company International because Bob the supervisor in Hotter Than Hell, Arizona hired 10 illegals while the rest of the company was clean....

[rock on sooner]

if they work for cash how do you know how much they earned? They could be using several different SS #'s when working illegally...I think it could turn into a cluster you know what...like I said I can go along with it but was trying appease the unappeasable... lol

I can't agree to jail the CEO of X Company International because Bob the supervisor in Hotter Than Hell, Arizona hired 10 illegals while the rest of the company was clean....

Know what, jailing one or two CEO's would solve the problem.
CEO's are supposed to create the culture of the company, that's why
they gets the ginormous bucks. Sorry, but if Bob the super does
it, more than just a few do (See Walmart's class action about overtime)
Jus sayin..

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Hey SanJoachin,
Would you be in favor of thatreally easy work visa if it had a provision that you would be ineligible and barredfrom ever getting U.S. citizenship and after your visa expires, you would be required to go back to your country of origin?

[pphilfran]

Know what, jailing one or two CEO's would solve the problem.
CEO's are supposed to create the culture of the company, that's why
they gets the ginormous bucks. Sorry, but if Bob the super does
it, more than just a few do (See Walmart's class action about overtime)
Jus sayin..

No it wouldn't....jailing an innocent goes against all our nations principles...you suggest "Guilty even if proven innocent."

Ain't buying it...

I don't know all the details on the Wal Mart situation but it is far reaching and could move far up the corporate ladder...

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Jesus Hernandez Christ, give me some time and I'll respond. Some of us have to work for a living, you know.

[pphilfran]

Know what, jailing one or two CEO's would solve the problem.
CEO's are supposed to create the culture of the company, that's why
they gets the ginormous bucks. Sorry, but if Bob the super does
it, more than just a few do (See Walmart's class action about overtime)
Jus sayin..

Judge "Mr. Rock on Sooner Jr., your blatant disregard for human life and your taking of two lives leaves me no choice to agree with the jury of your peers decision to sentence you to life without the possibility of parole!"

Judge "Mr. Rock on Sooner Sr., do you have any words for the court or the victims family?"

Rock on Sooner Sr. "Yes, your honor, I do. My wife and I are tremendously shocked and disgusted by our youngest sons heinous act. No words can express our sorrow to the family of the victim. We raised two other children. Our daughter is research doctor and was a key player in the discovery of the cure for cancer. Our other son went on to be an astronaut and was the first man to step on Mars. We raised all three of our children with love and constantly reminded them of the sanctity of life. We had no idea that Jr. would use his little league Barry Bonds baseball bat to beat a fellow ballplayer to death. The death of the coach trying to stop him was just as shocking. We are deeply sorry for our sons acts and thank to court for not giving Jr. the death penalty."

Judge "That is all well and good Mr Rock on Sooner but evidently you did not stress the importance of life enough. The court finds you guilty of being a co conspirator! 10 years hard labor!"

[okie52]

Know what, jailing one or two CEO's would solve the problem.
CEO's are supposed to create the culture of the company, that's why
they gets the ginormous bucks. Sorry, but if Bob the super does
it, more than just a few do (See Walmart's class action about overtime)
Jus sayin..

Hard to lock up a CEO for hiring illegals when the commander in chief fights laws that punish employers that hire illegals...what kind of culture is that?

[okie52]

Jesus Hernandez Christ, give me some time and I'll respond. Some of us have to work for a living, you know.

I always wondered what the H stood for.

That migrant worker class on a Saturday Juan?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I always wondered what the H stood for.

That migrant worker class on a Saturday Juan?

The migrant classes ended in July. Some move onto Oregon and Washington for their harvests. They'll be back for our late summer and fall crops.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I have seen some really lame reasoning over the course of time...but trying to equate a US citizen that smokes pot to a person that has illegally entered the country is ridiculous...


Now philfran, it's not all that ridiculous. What is clear is folks commit all kinds of crimes and rationalize how it's ok, and then get all holier-than-thou about someone illegally present, and demanding to know what part of "illegal" they don't understand!?! And you know pot laws fall under criminal code and illegal presence falls under civil code (in most cases).



I gave you my take on what to do with the situation...you have complained about compromise and getting something together that everyone can buy into...yet you ignore my thoughts and continue to ramble on like the feeble old man that I am...

So I will go into a little more detail...just for you...

I would require heavy fines on companies that employ illegal aliens...is that acceptable?

Absolutely not. Companies should be able to hire anyone they want - except for dangerous folks like terrorists or aliens who are convicted felons. Ok, if you want to fine them for hiring a known terrorist, that's certainly acceptable. I believe in free movement of labor and abolition of welfare.


I would compromise and allow those already in the country to stay here and give them a legitimate shot at becoming legal and productive citizens...is that acceptable?

Well, that's generous of you... it's ok with me if they have an opportunity to go to the koisk and get a worker visa without a path to citizenship. If they keep on the straight and narrow, and behave, maybe after 9 years or go making them eligible for a green card and eventually citizenship. Green card holders normally have to wait 5 years before being eligible for citizenship.
And to be clear on the koisk, they'd need a job offer from someone in the U.S. to get the worker visa. But they'd pick it up at the koisk instead of the Juarez consulate or some other consulate.



I would require a background check and those with a felony record would be eliminated...is that acceptable? Yes, as mentioned above - convicted felons should not be eligible. Even for pot felonies.



I would require them to get a GED if they don't already have one...is that acceptable?
We don't require that even for our Presidents.


I would require them to learn and understand basic English...is that acceptable?
For citizenship yes - as it is now. For green cards and worker visas no, as is it now.


I would require them to know the basics on US government and the Constitution...is that acceptable?
for citizenship yes.


I would wave all past missed payments of any taxes...is that acceptable?
No. Most of the illegal aliens I have known paid their taxes. But if they didn't then of course they should pay. Working off the books is tied more to type of work than who the workers are. For example it's common for some construction companies to pay off the books -whether the worker is legal or not - they don't want to the expense and hassle of workman's comp, etc. Domestic workers and babysitters often work for cash - whether they are legally here or not.

If they are here illegally and have a petition on file to adjust status, they most certainly want to pay taxes so they aren't disqualified when their priority date arrives.


I would give em three years to accomplish the above tasks...is that acceptable? You can't get citizenship in just 3 years, unless you marry a citizen. Otherwise it takes longer. Bureaucrats drag things out.



I would require them to meet target goals during those three years...steady progress would be required...is that acceptable?
You lost me here. Like being able to hit the bullseye from 10,000 feet?


I would drastically improve our border security so we don't have to go through this same crap a third time...is that acceptable?
Improving the visa system to match the laws of supply and demand would minimize illegal border crossings a great deal.
so would stopping the $20 billion per year Americans send to the drug cartels. The cartels can afford to pay the bribes at ports of entry for their smuggling rings.


I am now going to see what you are made of...gonna see if you continue to spew a bunch a lame rhetoric...

Now is the time to put up or shut up..

I walk the walk, philfran. I've raised two sisters-in-law who didn't speak a work a English (OK maybe four words: Good morning and Merry Christmas) when they arrived. They both became fluent in English and full-time workers. One of them graduated from Cal State Bakersfield last year and became a citizen this year. They were poor in Mexico. Now they are middle class. God bless American upward mobility.

I have two other sisters-in-law who filed for residency when they were teenagers (based on their mom's legal residency) 15 years ago. The line moved so slow they didn't get it before turning 21 which kicked them into a line that moves so slowly (due to small quota) they will be in their 50s by the time they reach the front of the line. That wouldn't be so bad if they could at least get a tourist visa to visit us in the U.S. They aren't eligible for a tourist visa because they are waiting in line for a residency visa. I would like to take them to Tahoe, San Francisco, and the Hearst Castle north of Santa Barbara. I can afford to post a bond, if the bureaucrats are too incompenent to implement biometric tracking. But the present law says no.

When my mom was under 24 hour care (for 12 long years before her death), I could not legally hire my own sister-in-law to care for her. Who do you think would do a more conscientious job, my sister-in-law or Rolanda sent by one of the Old Folks Care Agencies?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Hey SanJoachin,
Would you be in favor of thatreally easy work visa if it had a provision that you would be ineligible and barredfrom ever getting U.S. citizenship and after your visa expires, you would be required to go back to your country of origin?

Many seasonal workers would love to be able to work for 8 months or so, and spend the winters back home. But I believe if they've successfully worked as a guest worker for many years - say 9 years - they should be eligible for green card consideration.

In the black market system we've had since the end of the bracero program, there were millions who came here for a while and just didn't like it and went back home on their own. Almost every adult male I've ever met in Mexico has a story about their time in the U.S. But some like it and want to stay for various reasons. I'd be OK with it.

[pphilfran]

Now philfran, it's not all that ridiculous. What is clear is folks commit all kinds of crimes and rationalize how it's ok, and then get all holier-than-thou about someone illegally present, and demanding to know what part of "illegal" they don't understand!?! And you know pot laws fall under criminal code and illegal presence falls under civil code (in most cases)

Yes, it is ridiculous..you are attempting to compare a US citizen to a non US citizen and justify their legal status based on pot smoking...


Absolutely not. Companies should be able to hire anyone they want - except for dangerous folks like terrorists or aliens who are convicted felons. Ok, if you want to fine them for hiring a known terrorist, that's certainly acceptable. I believe in free movement of labor and abolition of welfare.

Your method would increase unemployment and lower wages to many or most below the middle class level...if someone or a group of people have special skills that are needed than I fully support green cards



Well, that's generous of you... it's ok with me if they have an opportunity to go to the koisk and get a worker visa without a path to citizenship. If they keep on the straight and narrow, and behave, maybe after 9 years or go making them eligible for a green card and eventually citizenship. Green card holders normally have to wait 5 years before being eligible for citizenship.
And to be clear on the koisk, they'd need a job offer from someone in the U.S. to get the worker visa. But they'd pick it up at the koisk instead of the Juarez consulate or some other consulate.

Fine...five years...but just because you have a green card it does not mean you will ever be granted citizenship...you actually expect Farmer Bob in Oregon to contact Juan in Mexico City and offer him a temp job?


Yes, as mentioned above - convicted felons should not be eligible. Even for pot felonies.
We agree...I do believe in an earlier post you mentioned pot smokers...not pot felonies...




We don't require that even for our Presidents.
Tough chit...the Prez must be born a citizen...it shouldn't be easy to become a citizen if you do not meet current citizenship requirements of the newborn...



For citizenship yes - as it is now. For green cards and worker visas no, as is it now.

I agree


for citizenship yes.
I agree



No. Most of the illegal aliens I have known paid their taxes. But if they didn't then of course they should pay. Working off the books is tied more to type of work than who the workers are. For example it's common for some construction companies to pay off the books -whether the worker is legal or not - they don't want to the expense and hassle of workman's comp, etc. Domestic workers and babysitters often work for cash - whether they are legally here or not.

As I said in an earlier post I don't care one way or another...but how do you propose to find out how much they earned to calculate the tax they owe? I think it would be a nightmare trying to figure out the actual figure...



If they are here illegally and have a petition on file to adjust status, they most certainly want to pay taxes so they aren't disqualified when their priority date arrives.

I would wave the past taxes so this would be a non issue


You can't get citizenship in just 3 years, unless you marry a citizen. Otherwise it takes longer. Bureaucrats drag things out.
I don't give a crap about the current system...five years would be fine...but keeping track of someone for 5 years will be a major pia and very costly




You lost me here. Like being able to hit the bullseye from 10,000 feet?

You want to bring em in and give them a list of expectations and then not require any followup to see if they are actually making progress towards citizenship? If a person wishing to become a citizen cannot stay on schedule then we shouldn't want them to be a citizen...




Improving the visa system to match the laws of supply and demand would minimize illegal border crossings a great deal.
so would stopping the $20 billion per year Americans send to the drug cartels. The cartels can afford to pay the bribes at ports of entry for their smuggling rings.


I have no problem improving the visa system...but it will do little to stop the drug cartel..our discussion about becoming a citizen has nothing to do with drug cartels or drug legality in the US...




I walk the walk, philfran. I've raised two sisters-in-law who didn't speak a work a English (OK maybe four words: Good morning and Merry Christmas) when they arrived. They both became fluent in English and full-time workers. One of them graduated from Cal State Bakersfield last year and became a citizen this year. They were poor in Mexico. Now they are middle class. God bless American upward mobility.

I have two other sisters-in-law who filed for residency when they were teenagers (based on their mom's legal residency) 15 years ago. The line moved so slow they didn't get it before turning 21 which kicked them into a line that moves so slowly (due to small quota) they will be in their 50s by the time they reach the front of the line. That wouldn't be so bad if they could at least get a tourist visa to visit us in the U.S. They aren't eligible for a tourist visa because they are waiting in line for a residency visa. I would like to take them to Tahoe, San Francisco, and the Hearst Castle north of Santa Barbara. I can afford to post a bond, if the bureaucrats are too incompenent to implement biometric tracking. But the present law says no.

When my mom was under 24 hour care (for 12 long years before her death), I could not legally hire my own sister-in-law to care for her. Who do you think would do a more conscientious job, my sister-in-law or Rolanda sent by one of the Old Folks Care Agencies?


Good for you...but the US is not here to make every foreigner a US middle class citizen..is it possible that the line is so long for the groups that take the legal road is because the ones that take the illegal path tend to brush them aside?

You mothers case is a sad one and is a good reason for reform....but the US shouldn't lower our overall standard to speed things up...

[pphilfran]

We tend to disagree because we have differing agendas...

My priority is with the American worker and protecting their right to work and limiting the amount of cheap labor to what is actually needed in the country...the immigrant worker is secondary in my belief...

Your priority seems to be with the immigrant worker and boosting their income even if that boost comes at the expense of the American worker...

As long as we have such a large gap between our core beliefs it is reasonable to think that we will never come to an agreement on what is fair to the legal/illegal immigrant worker or what is fair to the legal American worker...

[okie52]

Pphil and Juan-good discussion. Although I'm to the right of pphil on illegals I appreciate the points you've both made. But, like Pphil, my priorities would reside with the best interests of this country and it's citizens over illegals and potential citizens.

[pphilfran]

Pphil and Juan-good discussion. Although I'm to the right of pphil on illegals I appreciate the points you've both made. But, like Pphil, my priorities would reside with the best interests of this country and it's citizens over illegals and potential citizens.

We have met...you can call me phil...

[okie52]

We have met...you can call me phil...

Heh...that was for the other posters that may you confused with another phil

[pphilfran]

Accepted...I have met the other Phil..at the Washington game...

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Now philfran, it's not all that ridiculous. What is clear is folks commit all kinds of crimes and rationalize how it's ok, and then get all holier-than-thou about someone illegally present, and demanding to know what part of "illegal" they don't understand!?! And you know pot laws fall under criminal code and illegal presence falls under civil code (in most cases)

Yes, it is ridiculous..you are attempting to compare a US citizen to a non US citizen and justify their legal status based on pot smoking...

Yeah, I get it. If you're a citizen, it's ok to break laws.... kinda like diplomatic immunity. I'm not trying to justify one's legal status based on pot. It's more like parking in the red zone. You're some place you are not supposed to be.







Absolutely not. Companies should be able to hire anyone they want - except for dangerous folks like terrorists or aliens who are convicted felons. Ok, if you want to fine them for hiring a known terrorist, that's certainly acceptable. I believe in free movement of labor and abolition of welfare.

Your method would increase unemployment and lower wages to many or most below the middle class level...if someone or a group of people have special skills that are needed than I fully support green cards

No. No. No. It would decrease unemployment. Union liberals have brain washed you into thinking imports hurt America. Suppose Mexico offered to sell the U.S. high quality oil at $50 per barrel when the current market price is $90/barrel. Should we turn it down because a couple of Okie52's buddies might be hurt by it? No. In the aggregate it would increase economic activity and raise GDP. many, Many more people would be helped.
If we blocked it, it would be as if we are adding a tax of $40/barrel and passing it on to the consumer.

If an import is of higher quality and less expensive, it's a no-brainer.


Well, that's generous of you... it's ok with me if they have an opportunity to go to the koisk and get a worker visa without a path to citizenship. If they keep on the straight and narrow, and behave, maybe after 9 years or go making them eligible for a green card and eventually citizenship. Green card holders normally have to wait 5 years before being eligible for citizenship.
And to be clear on the koisk, they'd need a job offer from someone in the U.S. to get the worker visa. But they'd pick it up at the koisk instead of the Juarez consulate or some other consulate.

Fine...five years...but just because you have a green card it does not mean you will ever be granted citizenship...you actually expect Farmer Bob in Oregon to contact Juan in Mexico City and offer him a temp job?


Well, that's pretty much how it works in the black market of illegal labor. Farmer Bob tells his foreman he needs a couple more hands. The Foreman asks, "anybody knows anyone who wants to work?" So Gustavo calls his little brother Juan in Michoacan (field workers ordinarily don't come from Mexico City) and tells him to come on up if he wants to work.

In 1985, Juan crossed the border for free. Works March to Nov and goes home until next season
In 1994, he paid $600 to be transported as far as Los Angeles.
In 2001, up to $2000. Getting too expensive to go home and come back every year. Juan stays in U.S. year round.
Now it's $3000, on average. That 3000 would go a long way toward the koisk biometric payment -- better than paying it to the drug cartel coyotes.


Yes, as mentioned above - convicted felons should not be eligible. Even for pot felonies.
We agree...I do believe in an earlier post you mentioned pot smokers...not pot felonies...




We don't require that even for our Presidents.
Tough chit...the Prez must be born a citizen...it shouldn't be easy to become a citizen if you do not meet current citizenship requirements of the newborn...

It's not a big deal, but if you have some accomplished business person - say, for example a master sushi chef - in his or her 50s, who gives a damn about a GED?




For citizenship yes - as it is now. For green cards and worker visas no, as is it now.

I agree


for citizenship yes.
I agree

well, that's enough agreeing to get touchy feely, isn't it?



No. Most of the illegal aliens I have known paid their taxes. But if they didn't then of course they should pay. Working off the books is tied more to type of work than who the workers are. For example it's common for some construction companies to pay off the books -whether the worker is legal or not - they don't want to the expense and hassle of workman's comp, etc. Domestic workers and babysitters often work for cash - whether they are legally here or not.

As I said in an earlier post I don't care one way or another...but how do you propose to find out how much they earned to calculate the tax they owe? I think it would be a nightmare trying to figure out the actual figure...



If they are here illegally and have a petition on file to adjust status, they most certainly want to pay taxes so they aren't disqualified when their priority date arrives.

I would wave the past taxes so this would be a non issue

lots of legal folks are paid in cash -- however IRS handles it.



You can't get citizenship in just 3 years, unless you marry a citizen. Otherwise it takes longer. Bureaucrats drag things out.
I don't give a crap about the current system...five years would be fine...but keeping track of someone for 5 years will be a major pia and very costly

that's what it's always been, including under Reagan's amnesty.



You lost me here. Like being able to hit the bullseye from 10,000 feet?

You want to bring em in and give them a list of expectations and then not require any followup to see if they are actually making progress towards citizenship? If a person wishing to become a citizen cannot stay on schedule then we shouldn't want them to be a citizen...


don't get convicted of something and don't take welfare checks. If that's the schedule, then I agree.




Improving the visa system to match the laws of supply and demand would minimize illegal border crossings a great deal.
so would stopping the $20 billion per year Americans send to the drug cartels. The cartels can afford to pay the bribes at ports of entry for their smuggling rings.


I have no problem improving the visa system...but it will do little to stop the drug cartel..our discussion about becoming a citizen has nothing to do with drug cartels or drug legality in the US...

Good to know.







I walk the walk, philfran. I've raised two sisters-in-law who didn't speak a work a English (OK maybe four words: Good morning and Merry Christmas) when they arrived. They both became fluent in English and full-time workers. One of them graduated from Cal State Bakersfield last year and became a citizen this year. They were poor in Mexico. Now they are middle class. God bless American upward mobility.

I have two other sisters-in-law who filed for residency when they were teenagers (based on their mom's legal residency) 15 years ago. The line moved so slow they didn't get it before turning 21 which kicked them into a line that moves so slowly (due to small quota) they will be in their 50s by the time they reach the front of the line. That wouldn't be so bad if they could at least get a tourist visa to visit us in the U.S. They aren't eligible for a tourist visa because they are waiting in line for a residency visa. I would like to take them to Tahoe, San Francisco, and the Hearst Castle north of Santa Barbara. I can afford to post a bond, if the bureaucrats are too incompenent to implement biometric tracking. But the present law says no.

When my mom was under 24 hour care (for 12 long years before her death), I could not legally hire my own sister-in-law to care for her. Who do you think would do a more conscientious job, my sister-in-law or Rolanda sent by one of the Old Folks Care Agencies?


Good for you...but the US is not here to make every foreigner a US middle class citizen..is it possible that the line is so long for the groups that take the legal road is because the ones that take the illegal path tend to brush them aside?

You mothers case is a sad one and is a good reason for reform....but the US shouldn't lower our overall standard to speed things up...[/QUOTE]

As I said, if the line is so long as to require a 30 year wait, at least the law should be reformed to allow visiting immediate family under a tourist visa, with a posted bond. Tourist visas are prohibited for those who play by the rules in pursuing a resident visa - rather than jumping the border.