What's Iowa got that we haven't? Corn, aid and swing votes?

[cleller]

I've mention in a couple of threads that I just drove thru Illinois and Indiana last week, and was struck by the super-farms. Corn as far as the eye can see. Out in the middle of all these cornfields was the common site of big farm houses, big barns, lots of machinery. It struck me how prosperous they all looked. Very different than in these parts. The absence of small homes, or a farms that looked to be struggling was striking. Compared to Oklahoma, these farms looked liked baronial estates. On top of that, they are sitting on land worth millions. (Iowa average: $6708/acre)

Obviously, these farmers have lots of tough decisions, but it seems the government is involved in most of them. The government buys their corn. The government pays 60% of their crop insurance. Anyone around here selling calves to Uncle Sam? Anyone had hay donated by the government? Somehow, we seem to seen as self reliant.

Today Obama told these voters (aka, farmers) that he'd buy up an extra $150 million of their crops to put "in the freezer" to help them out. Great timing. Down here, the cattlemen and folks associated with Oklahoma agriculture get beat down every bit as bad, but no one is riding in here on Air Force One to spread the cash around. Is it because we're not a swing state?

[okie52]

Maybe if Obama had won a county in OK he'd feel a little more generous.

As it is he swoops in here on Air Force One to tell us how much he's helped the oil and gas industry and our pipeline.

[Sooner5030]

okie is doing pretty darn well itself......at least by metrics other than "the houses look nicer".

Okie GDP is somewhere around $134 billion compared to $128 billion of IA. IA is sitting pretty at GDP per capita of $41k compared to $35k for okie....although okie has a rather large pop of outliers that create a gap between mean and median. Also, IA has higher cost of living while okie is a net exporter of water, food, and energy (gas/oil/refined/electricity).

The last thing I would want to see in okie is that once every four year circus that is in IA.

[rock on sooner]

okie is doing pretty darn well itself......at least by metrics other than "the houses look nicer".

Okie GDP is somewhere around $134 billion compared to $128 billion of IA. IA is sitting pretty at GDP per capita of $41k compared to $35k for okie....although okie has a rather large pop of outliers that create a gap between mean and median. Also, IA has higher cost of living while okie is a net exporter of water, food, and energy (gas/oil/refined/electricity).

The last thing I would want to see in okie is that once every four year circus that is in IA.

Whaddya, mean every four years? It starts all over again
about 25 minutes after the candidates head for New Hampshire
and runs non stop until the next caucus!:emmersed:

[badger]

Down here, the cattlemen and folks associated with Oklahoma agriculture get beat down every bit as bad, but no one is riding in here on Air Force One to spread the cash around. Is it because we're not a swing state?

It might not be Air Force One, but Gov. Fallin is seeking disaster aid due to our drought conditions, wildfires, etc. And we will probably receive it, because that's what happens in this area - disasters. Then aid. Poor Oklahoma :(

[okie52]

I've mention in a couple of threads that I just drove thru Illinois and Indiana last week, and was struck by the super-farms. Corn as far as the eye can see. Out in the middle of all these cornfields was the common site of big farm houses, big barns, lots of machinery. It struck me how prosperous they all looked. Very different than in these parts. The absence of small homes, or a farms that looked to be struggling was striking. Compared to Oklahoma, these farms looked liked baronial estates. On top of that, they are sitting on land worth millions. (Iowa average: $6708/acre)

Obviously, these farmers have lots of tough decisions, but it seems the government is involved in most of them. The government buys their corn. The government pays 60% of their crop insurance. Anyone around here selling calves to Uncle Sam? Anyone had hay donated by the government? Somehow, we seem to seen as self reliant.

Today Obama told these voters (aka, farmers) that he'd buy up an extra $150 million of their crops to put "in the freezer" to help them out. Great timing. Down here, the cattlemen and folks associated with Oklahoma agriculture get beat down every bit as bad, but no one is riding in here on Air Force One to spread the cash around. Is it because we're not a swing state?

Heh, many of these struggling looking Okie farms are sitting on top of minerals that are worth millions.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Farming in many places is not the old family farm... These farmers are rich, they may be leveraged, but the are sitting on a gold mine that is nothing until they die and make listing of the property, then they are stinking rich... I would think those people would be for the end of the death tax and increase in the inheritance values, not what I would think would be demo thinking...

[TitoMorelli]

Heh, many of these struggling looking Okie farms are sitting on top of minerals that are worth millions.

Now if only the price of natural gas was a little closer to the price of corn.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Heh, many of these struggling looking Okie farms are sitting on top of minerals that are worth millions.

If they actually own the mineral rights. I would guess many of those still on the original farmsteads may own those rights.

[okie52]

Now if only the price of natural gas was a little closer to the price of corn.

Looks like a lot of that corn is wilting on the stalk.

[okie52]

If they actually own the mineral rights. I would guess many of those still on the original farmsteads may own those rights.

If they are the original farms then they probably own them.

OK has been having wells drilled on it for over 100 years so mineral severances are very common.

[jkjsooner]

Farming in many places is not the old family farm... These farmers are rich, they may be leveraged, but the are sitting on a gold mine that is nothing until they die and make listing of the property, then they are stinking rich... I would think those people would be for the end of the death tax and increase in the inheritance values, not what I would think would be demo thinking...

Aren't there inheritance tax exclusions for family farms?

I hate that term death tax. There is nothing different about inheritance tax than any other form of tax. You can't give unlimited amounts of money to anyone before death without tax consequences. Any time money changes hands there are tax consequences. The "death tax" is no different.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Why should there be a tax when someone dies. These people likely paid capital gains on investments, income tax, etc. Why shoul dthe government get their money grubbing mitts on someone's estate?

[jkjsooner]

Why should there be a tax when someone dies. These people likely paid capital gains on investments, income tax, etc. Why shoul dthe government get their money grubbing mitts on someone's estate?

Fine, why should I have to pay a gift tax when I give someone money (over the yearly exclusion amount)? I've already paid income tax and capital gains tax on it.

If I pay my son to mow my grass, why must he pay income tax on that? I've already paid income tax and capital gains tax on the money myself.

Assets are taxed anytime they change hands. Inheritance tax is no different. If "taxes are already paid on that money" is a valid argument, there would be no income tax or most any type of tax. The government would quickly run out of money.

So now tell me why inheritance tax should be treated differently. Tell me why a guy working for that money should have a tax obligation but a guy who simply inherited it should not.

As it is, inheritance is treated much more leniently. I don't get $5 million excluded when I work for you.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I don't think there should be an income tax. makes it too easy to take from people. People should have to write checks for their taxes, then they will see how much is leaving their hands. and then they will be engaged in the system. current system creates too many people indifferent, because they think they have no ability to change the system.

[cleller]

It might not be Air Force One, but Gov. Fallin is seeking disaster aid due to our drought conditions, wildfires, etc. And we will probably receive it, because that's what happens in this area - disasters. Then aid. Poor Oklahoma :(


Heh, many of these struggling looking Okie farms are sitting on top of minerals that are worth millions.


You'd be surprised how few current landowners own the minerals under their land. Very few. Not me, not any of my neighbors out here running cattle. Those minerals went to whoever got the land 110 years ago, and generally have been divided up over several generations. Imagine if your great grandfather bought 160 acres. He would have divided those rights over all the generations that follow. Still, only a fraction of the state has oil and gas currently producing. If they do produce, it is oil companies paying them for their minerals, not the government and taxpayers.

So, Oklahoma is a disaster area. The assistance with this is for those with homes burned by wildfires in 5 counties, plus a few more counties for drought. Pretty small scale. Most of this is just low interest loans, not government handouts like the corn farmers get.

[Midtowner]

Aren't there inheritance tax exclusions for family farms?

I hate that term death tax. There is nothing different about inheritance tax than any other form of tax. You can't give unlimited amounts of money to anyone before death without tax consequences. Any time money changes hands there are tax consequences. The "death tax" is no different.

IIRC, everyone gets a $5MM lifetime and estate combined allowance for no taxation. After that, I can't recall what the rate is.

[cleller]

IIRC, everyone gets a $5MM lifetime and estate combined allowance for no taxation. After that, I can't recall what the rate is.

Isn't this the deal that drops to $1 million, then a 55% tax rate if Congress does not change something prior to Jan 1? It still sound like a lot, but 1 million isn't what it used to be, especially when you consider an entire estate. Could have a rash of suspicious suicides in December.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/01/pf/taxes/estate_tax_increase/index.htm

[Midtowner]

Isn't this the deal that drops to $1 million, then a 55% tax rate if Congress does not change something prior to Jan 1? It still sound like a lot, but 1 million isn't what it used to be, especially when you consider an entire estate. Could have a rash of suspicious suicides in December.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/01/pf/taxes/estate_tax_increase/index.htm

We've got to fund our government somehow. I don't really have a problem taxing dead peoples' money.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I do...

[badger]

I don't think there should be an income tax. makes it too easy to take from people. People should have to write checks for their taxes, then they will see how much is leaving their hands. and then they will be engaged in the system. current system creates too many people indifferent, because they think they have no ability to change the system.

If we didn't have an income tax, the sales taxes, property taxes and every other type of tax would go up. They'd get you some how :)

Who is "they?" Big Brother.

Gawd I hate that show:P

[jkjsooner]

If we didn't have an income tax, the sales taxes, property taxes and every other type of tax would go up. They'd get you some how :)

Who is "they?" Big Brother.

Gawd I hate that show:P

I actually like the idea of a federal sales tax in lieu of an income tax. It would have to be much higher than what we currently think of as a sales tax.

You could exclude basic necessities from this tax as well so the very poor who simply can't afford to pay a 20-30% sales tax don't get beaten to death. That would mean a billionaire would not have to pay taxes on a gallon of milk but neither would a poor person.

One problem (and it is potentially a huge one) is that it might encourage too much saving and too little spending. It could make revenue even more unpredictable in recessions and more important could severely discourage economic activity. I know I'd just pocket everything I could and pay almost no taxes - well at least I would have when I was single.

Anyway, I like the idea on first glance but it probably has way too many problems to be a valid idea.

[jkjsooner]

IIRC, everyone gets a $5MM lifetime and estate combined allowance for no taxation. After that, I can't recall what the rate is.

I mentioned that in a post above. What I mean by "no different" is that it's not different with respect to the "I've already paid taxes on that money" argument. Every dollar we're taxed on has had taxes taken out a million times on it.

[pphilfran]

I actually like the idea of a federal sales tax in lieu of an income tax. It would have to be much higher than what we currently think of as a sales tax.

You could exclude basic necessities from this tax as well so the very poor who simply can't afford to pay a 20-30% sales tax don't get beaten to death. That would mean a billionaire would not have to pay taxes on a gallon of milk but neither would a poor person.

One problem (and it is potentially a huge one) is that it might encourage too much saving and too little spending. It could make revenue even more unpredictable in recessions and more important could severely discourage economic activity. I know I'd just pocket everything I could and pay almost no taxes - well at least I would have when I was single.

Anyway, I like the idea on first glance but it probably has way too many problems to be a valid idea.

Possibly...but part of our past problems is because we haven't been saving enough...a chitpot full of people won't be able to retire because they have no savings...

Also, when somebody gets a raise they tend to spend a significant portion of that raise...your paycheck is going to increase 10 or 20% overnight...a significant part of that will be spent..but you are correct in questioning how much would be spent and how much would be saved....

It damn sure would give the lower wage earners more discretionary income...and they will spend the majority of the increase...

Overall, you bring up valid points...

[cleller]

Every dollar we're taxed on has had taxes taken out a million times on it.

There you go exaggerating again. You always make everything sound 50,000 times worse than it really is.








Old joke from Frasier.

[Sooner5030]

We've got to fund our government somehow. I don't really have a problem taxing dead peoples' money.

I think most of us understand that fed, state & local gov has to be adequately funded........I just prefer sales and income taxes instead of property and inheritance taxes. Also.....they aren't just handing over money......they are usually converting non-liquid assets to money in order to pay the tax.

[Midtowner]

I think most of us understand that fed, state & local gov has to be adequately funded........I just prefer sales and income taxes instead of property and inheritance taxes. Also.....they aren't just handing over money......they are usually converting non-liquid assets to money in order to pay the tax.

But inheritance tax hurts the least. You're talking about money that belonged to someone who is dead, not money coming out of anyone's paycheck.

[Sooner5030]

But inheritance tax hurts the least. You're talking about money that belonged to someone who is dead, not money coming out of anyone's paycheck.

people who live in multi-generational homes would disagree with you.

[Midtowner]

people who live in multi-generational homes would disagree with you.

The Plantagenets will have to deal.

[jkjsooner]

I think most of us understand that fed, state & local gov has to be adequately funded........I just prefer sales and income taxes instead of property and inheritance taxes. Also.....they aren't just handing over money......they are usually converting non-liquid assets to money in order to pay the tax.

And that is an issue. I'd be in favor of the following:

1. Assets are only subject to inheritance tax once sold (or given away). Capital gains on these assets would be taxed normally.
2. Assets that pass through multiple generations are only subject to one inheritance tax when sold.

I'm sure a good tax lawyer will find a ton of loopholes here that they could use. Also, these type of ideas are why our tax codes are so complicated...

I'm also not against family farm exclusions...

[jkjsooner]

people who live in multi-generational homes would disagree with you.

Tough life to inherit a $5+ million home and have to sell it to pay the taxes... ;-)

[jkjsooner]

Possibly...but part of our past problems is because we haven't been saving enough...a chitpot full of people won't be able to retire because they have no savings...

Yep, this is one of those areas where economists really boggle your mind. We aren't saving enough. We're not spending enough. The Japanese are saving too much.

I guess a lot of it is about balance and distortion of the economy. If we build an economy that is based too much on consumer debt, the economy (jobs) adjust to expect this debt spending. Once distorted there is no easy answer.

[Sooner5030]

And that is an issue. I'd be in favor of the following:

1. Assets are only subject to inheritance tax once sold (or given away). Capital gains on these assets would be taxed normally.
2. Assets that pass through multiple generations are only subject to one inheritance tax when sold.

I'm sure a good tax lawyer will find a ton of loopholes here that they could use. Also, these type of ideas are why our tax codes are so complicated...

I'm also not against family farm exclusions...

Although it doesn't help with the federal inheritance tax some states do treat non-liquid assets differently than cash/cds/stocks/etc. The threshold is usually higher for non-liquid assets in order to prevent small farms from being sold to pay taxes. And I think some even may take your approach and wait until the property is sold (or gain is actually realized) to require the taxes be paid. Every state is a little different. Would be nice if the fed gov took the same approach.

[cleller]

Tough life to inherit a $5+ million home and have to sell it to pay the taxes... ;-)

How about inheriting a 5 million dollar business or family farm and having to sell it to pay taxes?

[jkjsooner]

How about inheriting a 5 million dollar business or family farm and having to sell it to pay taxes?

Why don't you look at the post I was quoting in my response? Don't make my statement out to be more than it was.


people who live in multi-generational homes would disagree with you.

[cleller]

Why don't you look at the post I was quoting in my response? Don't make my statement out to be more than it was.

I was agreeing with you, based on the two posts, but didn't think to multi-quote. My apologies for any confusion.

[SoonerBBall]

I actually like the idea of a federal sales tax in lieu of an income tax. It would have to be much higher than what we currently think of as a sales tax.

You could exclude basic necessities from this tax as well so the very poor who simply can't afford to pay a 20-30% sales tax don't get beaten to death. That would mean a billionaire would not have to pay taxes on a gallon of milk but neither would a poor person.

One problem (and it is potentially a huge one) is that it might encourage too much saving and too little spending. It could make revenue even more unpredictable in recessions and more important could severely discourage economic activity. I know I'd just pocket everything I could and pay almost no taxes - well at least I would have when I was single.

Anyway, I like the idea on first glance but it probably has way too many problems to be a valid idea.

You should honestly give the Fair Tax a look. The basics are exactly what you are proposing. Also, it goes to great pains to show that consumption in this country has been far more stable and predictable than income so it is much easier to predict changes in tax revenue due to changing economic conditions.


Queue the uniformed coming in calling the Fair Tax a fraud because they don't understand the concept of inclusive vs exclusive taxation.

[LiveLaughLove]

The fair tax, sales tax instead of income tax, flat tax are all great. Here's the rub.

The poor and lower class don't just pay zero in taxes currently. They actually get money back. Money they didn't even pay in. So they aren't at net sum zero. They actually pay zero and get x back.

Neither of those solutions allow for that like an income tax redistribution does. Under the current system, people are literally paid by the income tax.

I'm telling ya, this world is upside freaking down.

Sorry if this was already said. I didn't read through the thread.

[Sooner5030]

The fair tax, sales tax instead of income tax, flat tax are all great. Here's the rub.

The poor and lower class don't just pay zero in taxes currently. They actually get money back. Money they didn't even pay in. So they aren't at net sum zero. They actually pay zero and get x back.

Neither of those solutions allow for that like an income tax redistribution does. Under the current system, people are literally paid by the income tax.

I'm telling ya, this world is upside freaking down.

Sorry if this was already said. I didn't read through the thread.

The EIC was well intended and all, but just like any other form of intervention.....once implemented it is almost impossible to take away. I think that is why we are headed for a forced correction. None of the steps needed to fix the problems are acceptable to a certain portion of the public.....taxpayers/SSA recips/SNAP/gov employees/AARP/etc.

We've continued to stack intervention on top of intervention to a point that gov spend (net of taxes) is such a large portion of GDP that cutting it will cause a contraction.......not cutting will result in default and the system will collapse from its own weight. I don't know if it is 1 year, 5 or 15........maybe when the USD is no longer the reserve currency this thing finally rights itself. IDK......hope there aren't too many riots.

[Condescending Sooner]

Tough life to inherit a $5+ million home and have to sell it to pay the taxes... ;-)

With that thinking, the family farm would be gone in a couple of generations. Junior cannot afford the tax on the farm his dad tries to give him so he has to sell it. The large conglomerates are the only ones with the money to buy anything of any size.

[C&CDean]

I know a bit about Iowa. Married an Iowegian, and have spent much time up there. Here's what Iowa has that Okie does not:

1. A buttload of flaming libtards.

2. A bunch of conservatives who vote Democrat cause it's what they've been programmed do.

3. Coooooold winters.

4. BIG corn. Not little corn like we've got. BIG corn. Stinky cereal plants, places that make everything from bacon bits to the slick crap on magazine pages. Outta corn. Those huge corn farms with the high-dollar equipment? Obama corn. You wanna get in a fight in Iowegia? Say "ethanol sucks." That'll get your *** whooped quicker than saying "wrasslin' is gay."

For the life of me I don't get those folks up there. Religious, hard-working, honest people - who vote Democrat? Talk about cornfused.

[cleller]

They vote for who butters their corn.

[jkjsooner]

With that thinking, the family farm would be gone in a couple of generations. Junior cannot afford the tax on the farm his dad tries to give him so he has to sell it. The large conglomerates are the only ones with the money to buy anything of any size.

How many times do I have to say that I agree with a family farm exemption? Read the thread. I think this is at least the third time I've mentioned it.

I also came up with a scheme that would put off paying taxes until assets were sold (which would make the situation you describe unnecessary) and said I would support that as well.


What I'm not for is the thinking that inheritance is somehow fundamentally unfair when all forms of asset transfers are taxed. If I was given the farm for work performed I'd pay income taxes. It wouldn't matter that the original owner paid taxes on these assets and capital gains. Assets are taxed over and over and over again. That's the nature of taxation.

[okie52]

I know a bit about Iowa. Married an Iowegian, and have spent much time up there. Here's what Iowa has that Okie does not:

1. A buttload of flaming libtards.

2. A bunch of conservatives who vote Democrat cause it's what they've been programmed do.

3. Coooooold winters.

4. BIG corn. Not little corn like we've got. BIG corn. Stinky cereal plants, places that make everything from bacon bits to the slick crap on magazine pages. Outta corn. Those huge corn farms with the high-dollar equipment? Obama corn. You wanna get in a fight in Iowegia? Say "ethanol sucks." That'll get your *** whooped quicker than saying "wrasslin' is gay."

For the life of me I don't get those folks up there. Religious, hard-working, honest people - who vote Democrat? Talk about cornfused.

Must be a northern thing.

[okie52]

They vote for who butters their corn.

:wink: