Romney Vice Presidential Running Mate

[StoopTroup]

It surely seems that the GOP and Romney Camp aren't in any hurry this time to announce a running mate. I'm sure there are plenty opinions as why one hasn't been picked as well as who would be best or even why it's smart or dumb that they wait.

I just thought we should have a thread ready as I think pressure to announce is beginning to mount.

Mitt seems to be really perturbed when asked about it by the Media. Is the media feeling that and will they begin to really pour it on him at every press conference until he snaps or announces one?

I really like Jan Brewer. I think she would really light up the news.

[hawaii 5-0]

I think Donald Trump is more than qualified to run the World.

Just ask him.


5-0

[rock on sooner]

Nah, Mitt is tryin ta git Ms Palin to put her millions
inta blind trust, but she's holdin out fer jus a 2 year
term..her specialty!:biggrin:

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Fake pressure from the Lame Stream Media... Them and O'Bummer want a name so they can target false adverts.

If I were Romney, I would hold out until the last possible moment. The name a person who can spew venom and facts at O'Bummer and his minions

[rock on sooner]

Problem is, Romney is trailing in most of the polls and
some Pubs are grumbling about he's running his campaign.
I think he'd be better to get his pick out there so he can
get an "attack" dog out on the stump...

[cleller]

Heard David Petraeus and Paul Ryan mentioned in the last couple days. Patraeus is an interesting idea. The guy is an achiever, no doubt. He might be better as president, though.

[SicEmBaylor]

It surely seems that the GOP and Romney Camp aren't in any hurry this time to announce a running mate. I'm sure there are plenty opinions as why one hasn't been picked as well as who would be best or even why it's smart or dumb that they wait.

I just thought we should have a thread ready as I think pressure to announce is beginning to mount.

Mitt seems to be really perturbed when asked about it by the Media. Is the media feeling that and will they begin to really pour it on him at every press conference until he snaps or announces one?

I really like Jan Brewer. I think she would really light up the news.

In no hurry? If they announced now, this would be the earliest of any Presidential camp. announcing a running mate. They typically come just a few days before the convention -- the rumor has been that Romney would announce his choice much earlier than is typical, but that's looking to not be the case.

At any rate, it's highly premature to say he's in no hurry.

[hawaii 5-0]

Trouble is, any VP nominee would be more qualified than Romney, even Palin.

5-0

[rock on sooner]

5-0, stop n think bout what you just said.."even Palin"!!!!??!!!
I heard Romney go "oompff" with that low blow! LMAO!!!:biggrin:

[SicEmBaylor]

Can someone show me tangible proof of how experience is the least bit important in a potential Commander-in-Chief? There have been great Presidents with virtually no experience and lousy *** Presidents with oodles of experience.

Experience does not matter. Let me repeat -- experience does not matter.

Good judgement and sound principles are a much better indicator of how good a President is going to be.

[soonercruiser]

I saw a report that Joe Biden was secretly called by Mitt.......asked to jump parties and run with Mitt!
Biden's wispered answer was.....................That would "be a one big F***** deal"!

[StoopTroup]

I can show you my clairvoyance.

Press is saying The Romney Camp is announcing tomorrow.

http://www.homerunhitmaker.com/images/Home-Run-Real-Estate-Investing1.jpg

[SoonerBread]

I think Donald Trump is more than qualified to run the World.

Just ask him.


5-0

No one pays attention to Trump, except you.

[IBleedCrimson]

Looks like Ryan.

[Chuck Bao]

I like this choice a lot. It is certainly bold. Hopefully, Romney's selection of Paul Ryan as his running mate will center the political debate in this election and in Washington on deficit reduction where it should be. Even though I don't support Romney, I still hope that this choice indicates what kind of president that Romney would make if he does become president.

Besides that, Paul Ryan apparently has good taste in marrying an Oklahoma girl.

[diverdog]

I like this choice a lot. It is certainly bold. Hopefully, Romney's selection of Paul Ryan as his running mate will center the political debate in this election and in Washington on deficit reduction where it should be. Even though I don't support Romney, I still hope that this choice indicates what kind of president that Romney would make if he does become president.Besides that, Paul Ryan apparently has good taste in marrying an Oklahoma girl.Actually a bad choice. The Dems got to be giddy over this. Ryan is the guy who wants to privatize SS and Medicare. The dems will scare the chit out of seniors and the will vote D.

[Midtowner]

I wonder how many years of tax returns the Romney campaign requested from Ryan?

[StoopTroup]

They are going to make America Free Again.

I can't wait for that.

[AlboSooner]

Actually a bad choice. The Dems got to be giddy over this. Ryan is the guy who wants to privatize SS and Medicare. The dems will scare the chit out of seniors and the will vote D.

agree.

outside of condolezza rice, romney couldn't improve his ticket.

[rock on sooner]

Actually a bad choice. The Dems got to be giddy over this. Ryan is the guy who wants to privatize SS and Medicare. The dems will scare the chit out of seniors and the will vote D.

Talk is that the Dems were hoping it'd be Ryan...they got their wish.

[TitoMorelli]

Talk is that the Dems were hoping it'd be Ryan...they got their wish.

Not sure why they're so ecstatic about it. Maybe because of their fear that Rubio would ruin any chance of Obama winning Florida.

Or maybe because they feel that they can push even harder on the "throw Granny off the cliff" strategy. But they'd better hope that not too many voters will actually give Ryan a chance and take the time to listen to him.

When Obama scheduled a "health care summit" a couple of years ago, he was so supremely confident that no Republican could match him in the debate, and that the effort would help him gain public approval for O-care. Foolish move on POTUS' part. Ryan schooled him.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Talk is that the Dems were hoping it'd be Ryan...they got their wish.Where did you hear that talk?

[SoonerProphet]

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-triumph-of-ryanmania/

[Sooner5030]

not bad.......at least he had the guts to put some changes in the budget. Most didn't like those changes but they didn't come up with any better ideas.

We're just arguing over which presidential team will be driving the bus when it actually goes over the cliff. Neither can stop it.

[AlboSooner]

We're just arguing over which presidential team will be driving the bus when it actually goes over the cliff. Neither can stop it.

Good point.

[rock on sooner]

Where did you hear that talk?

Several different talking heads, when the veepstakes came up, mentioned
that some in the Dems would like Ryan because of what he's said about
entitlements, Medicare, etc. wanting to privatize SS and Medicare. The
Dems will trot out scare tactics for seniors and so on and on....

[hawaii 5-0]

Which news organization will be the first to show a clip on the shut down GM plant in Janesville, WI. Ryan's home district?


5-0

[TitoMorelli]

Which news organization will be the first to show a clip on the shut down GM plant in Janesville, WI. Ryan's home district?


5-0

So how's that recall election goin' for you?

[olevetonahill]

So how's that recall election goin' for you?

:D

[REDREX]

Actually a bad choice. The Dems got to be giddy over this. Ryan is the guy who wants to privatize SS and Medicare. The dems will scare the chit out of seniors and the will vote D.---Well we could just keep on with the current systems-----and watch them go broke. It is such a joke to keep kicking the can down the road , we have over $80 trillion in unfunded liability , much of it from medicare----But why try and fix it?

[rock on sooner]

So how's that recall election goin' for you?

Best defense money could buy..Walker could legally raise
unlimited funds (he did) and spend it as he saw fit (he did)
while his opponent was restricted. Walker had SEVEN times
the amount of money his opponent had. That's all history now.

Ryan's budget and Romney's agreement of it is the most
frightening circumstance my generation can face.. a voucher
system for Medicare and privatizing SS, deep cuts in education,
from college all the way down to Head Start so he can give very
lucrative tax "help" for those at the top..those job creators that
W wanted to and did help (question...where are all those jobs
that the "creators" were going to bring about? Nowhere, the
money went into the pockets of the "creators" instead of the
job market.) Food for thought...

[Turd_Ferguson]

Best defense money could buy..Walker could legally raise
unlimited funds (he did) and spend it as he saw fit (he did)
while his opponent was restricted. Walker had SEVEN times
the amount of money his opponent had. That's all history now.

Ryan's budget and Romney's agreement of it is the most
frightening circumstance my generation can face.. a voucher
system for Medicare and privatizing SS, deep cuts in education,
from college all the way down to Head Start so he can give very
lucrative tax "help" for those at the top..those job creators that
W wanted to and did help (question...where are all those jobs
that the "creators" were going to bring about? Nowhere, the
money went into the pockets of the "creators" instead of the
job market.) Food for thought...You don't know **** about ****...

[rock on sooner]

You don't know **** about ****...

Thanks, TF, you didn't disappoint...

[Turd_Ferguson]

Thanks, TF, you didn't disappoint...I aim to please...

[Statalyzer]

The idea that this is a conservative choice is mostly a myth. Paul Ryan is just as much about government being above the law, a tool to coerce others into doing things the way those in power happen to prefer, Washington knows what's best for you better than you do, as most other Democrats or Republicans are.

He's in favor of ignoring the Constitution whenever it fits him, such as bailing out corporate buddies or spying on American citizens at will.


Ryan's budget and Romney's agreement of it is the most frightening circumstance my generation can face.. a voucher system for Medicare and privatizing SS

Right - because taking my money away from me under the logic that I might need that money 40 years from now is logical. Privatizing it doesn't go far enough, but it's a start.


deep cuts in education,

The Federal Department of Education is not synonymous with "education".


(question...where are all those jobs that the "creators" were going to bring about? Nowhere, the money went into the pockets of the "creators" instead of the job market.) Food for thought...

The money didn't GO into the pockets of anyone - it STAYED where it already belonged.


Good judgement and sound principles are a much better indicator of how good a President is going to be.

Exactly why we're ****ed no matter which guy wins.

[FaninAma]

This is the defining election of the last 75 years for this country. Are we as a nation going to have some consideration for future generations and get governmemt expenditures under control or will we vote selfishly for the candidate who promises to maximize handouts from the federal government and allow our econony to follow the European Union off of a cliff?

Now, if we could only get the GOP on board with reigning in Wall Street by breaking up the big banks and stop being the party of military interventionism around the world we would really have something we could build on.

[marfacowboy]

David Duke was in the running until Romney found out Duke hated Jews.

[rock on sooner]

I aim to please...

Well, you aim a lot, just not sure if it's to please:D

[rock on sooner]

David Duke was in the running until Romney found out Duke hated Jews.

Now THAT would have shaken the very foundation of American
politics!

[Turd_Ferguson]

David Duke was in the running until Romney found out Duke hated Jews.I was wondering why you were red, but now I know. Are you and Hawaii-50 the same person??? Hmmmm.

[hawaii 5-0]

So how's that recall election goin' for you?


I've moved on a long time ago.

How's the unemployment doing in Janesville? Home values?

How are Seniors feeling about Ryan's plan to scrap Medicare and Social Security?


I actually like Ryan as a person. He's very smart and a go-getter. It's just that he's out of touch with the middle class. He's another Romney clone. Mitt coulda done better.

5-0

[SicEmBaylor]

There are things I like and definitely do not like about Paul Ryan. On the plus side, he's an intellectual who has a first-class mind especially when it comes to financial and budgetary issues. He has shown he has the political courage to advocate tough unpopular choices. He is, now at least, unquestionably committed to reducing the cost of government.

However, he was also a committed supporter of President Bush's big government "conservatism." He supported the bailouts, TARP, NCLB, the Medicare Prescription drug plan, etc. etc. It's difficult to say he's fully committed to deficit reduction when he has supported measures that exponentially increased the size of the Federal budget and the scope of Federal power. It is also disturbing and scary that he supported both the Patriot Act and its subsequent re-authorization. He has been opposed to legalizing marijuana on the Federal level. Regardless of how you feel about marijuana use, this is one of those issues that tells me a lot about how well a politician understands the role of the Federal government v. the state governments and their understanding and respect for the US Constitution.

Having said all that, I think Paul Ryan is the best possible Veep choice between choosing someone that would have been "dangerously bold" or "disappointingly safe."

[hawaii 5-0]

I'm reminded that even Oklahoma didn't buy Romney's Bullshlt.

They voted for Santorum.

The Romney defenders are few and far between. I guess they're all at the Olymics watching the horsey dancin'.


5-0

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm reminded that even Oklahoma didn't buy Romney's Bullshlt.

They voted for Santorum.

The Romney defenders are few and far between. I guess they're all at the Olymics watching the horsey dancin'.


5-0
To be fair, Santorum's bull**** eclipses that of Romney.

[hawaii 5-0]

To be fair, Santorum's bull**** eclipses that of Romney.


Ya get what ya vote for.

Unless ya vote for a flip-flopper.

Or an Evolver.

5-0

[marfacowboy]

I was wondering why you were red, but now I know. Are you and Hawaii-50 the same person??? Hmmmm.

Don't worry. There's only one of me.

[soonercruiser]

No one pays attention to Trump, except you.

5-O like guys with red hair!

[soonercruiser]

Talk is that the Dems were hoping it'd be Ryan...they got their wish.

Yup! The LWers will be attacking a person with the only real plan to attack the budget deficit and make SS and Medicare sustainable. If you have no plan; attack the other guy's plan!
Typical. :uncomfortableness:
The Left wants the whole country to crash and fold.

[soonercruiser]

Which news organization will be the first to show a clip on the shut down GM plant in Janesville, WI. Ryan's home district?


5-0

GM and Dems/unions only reward their contributors.

[pphilfran]

I've moved on a long time ago.

How's the unemployment doing in Janesville? Home values?

How are Seniors feeling about Ryan's plan to scrap Medicare and Social Security?


I actually like Ryan as a person. He's very smart and a go-getter. It's just that he's out of touch with the middle class. He's another Romney clone. Mitt coulda done better.

5-0

Let's talk about SS...

Currently we take the money and put it into special issue bonds that cannont be sold on the open market...the cash is then spent...those bonds draw interest that are paid for by the fed...so we increase spending when we pay the interest on the bonds...when the fed is forced to sell the bonds they sell them back to themselves and print more money to pay for the bonds...

In actuality those bonds earn nothing since they are paid for by the people that issue those bonds...

Ryan wants to allow private accounts...an account in my name and your name...an account that the fed cannot touch...interest on those bonds would be paid for by others outside the government so they would get a "true" rate of return...even if they lost three percent a year (which is highly unlikely) the fed could put the three percent back in to make the account whole, which is what they are currently doing when the fed pays interest to itself...

This destroying SS is strictly an inaccurate statement by those on the in DC that despise the thought of losing control of trillions of dollars...

PIMCO would be a possible choice of handling some of the bond issues...they currently have over 1.7 trillion in managed assets...

You buy into political rhetoric far too easily....

[olevetonahill]

Let's talk about SS...

Currently we take the money and put it into special issue bonds that cannont be sold on the open market...the cash is then spent...those bonds draw interest that are paid for by the fed...so we increase spending when we pay the interest on the bonds...when the fed is forced to sell the bonds they sell them back to themselves and print more money to pay for the bonds...

In actuality those bonds earn nothing since they are paid for by the people that issue those bonds...

Ryan wants to allow private accounts...an account in my name and your name...an account that the fed cannot touch...interest on those bonds would be paid for by others outside the government so they would get a "true" rate of return...even if they lost three percent a year (which is highly unlikely) the fed could put the three percent back in to make the account whole, which is what they are currently doing when the fed pays interest to itself...

This destroying SS is strictly an inaccurate statement by those on the in DC that despise the thought of losing control of trillions of dollars...

PIMCO would be a possible choice of handling some of the bond issues...they currently have over 1.7 trillion in managed assets...

You buy into political rhetoric far too easily....

Libs tend to do that :D

[rock on sooner]

Yup! The LWers will be attacking a person with the only real plan to attack the budget deficit and make SS and Medicare sustainable. If you have no plan; attack the other guy's plan!
Typical. :uncomfortableness:
The Left wants the whole country to crash and fold.

If you were born after 1956...be afwaid, be vewy, vewy afwaid...
Please, one and all, read about the Path to Prosperity. (Google it!)
Cruiser, he doesn't want to make Medicare sustainable, he wants it
to go away and he advocates privatizing SS. Ladies and Germs, you
folks on the right are being fed some stuff that even an Iowa hog
will turn away from.

Yeah, Yeah, I know...I'm on the other side, but, fer Chrissakes, I've
read enough of the plan to know that my kids are going to see deficits
that are monstrous, compared to now.

Know what, I'm gonna tell everyone, both sides, what I see and you can
all take it for what you think it's worth. You can flame all you want, I've
read enough of the board to know that few are openminded, even fewer
have reasonable responses to any differing opinion. Saddens me, it really
does, that so many Sooner fans are unbendingly closeminded.

Fortunately, we ALL agree on one thing...BOOMER SOONER!

[FaninAma]

Marfa, I've only been back on the political board for a couple of days and it is obvious that I can save myself the effort of reading your posts.

[FaninAma]

Obama cuts NASA's budget to the bone and today he claims that the nomination of Ryan proves the GOP wants to cut the federal budget for research and development.


The guy is a pathological liar. He is the type of person who will never have remorse for the lies that come out of his mouth. I guess it is easy to understand the type of politician he is by examining the background of his political training in Chicago......the deepest cesspool of American politics.

[olevetonahill]

Marfa, I've only been back on the political board for a couple of days and it is obvious that I can save myself the effort of reading your posts.

Look out Bro
Marfa is Smarter, Richer, Better looking, has a longer dick, his kids are the same( Oh wait they girls so they have More) . We should all bow down to him and his superiority. He is the Master

[pphilfran]

Libs tend to do that :D

This isn't a liberal thing...it is both sides losing control of trillions of future moneys that they would be unable to spend as they do today...

[pphilfran]

Those that don't want changes to SS are the ones that will decimate the fund for future generations...

Those that want to make changes to the system are the ones that will ensure that the fund is stable and able to viable for future generations...

50 falls in the first category...

[StoopTroup]

Let's talk about SS...

Currently we take the money and put it into special issue bonds that cannont be sold on the open market...the cash is then spent...those bonds draw interest that are paid for by the fed...so we increase spending when we pay the interest on the bonds...when the fed is forced to sell the bonds they sell them back to themselves and print more money to pay for the bonds...

In actuality those bonds earn nothing since they are paid for by the people that issue those bonds...

Ryan wants to allow private accounts...an account in my name and your name...an account that the fed cannot touch...interest on those bonds would be paid for by others outside the government so they would get a "true" rate of return...even if they lost three percent a year (which is highly unlikely) the fed could put the three percent back in to make the account whole, which is what they are currently doing when the fed pays interest to itself...

This destroying SS is strictly an inaccurate statement by those on the in DC that despise the thought of losing control of trillions of dollars...

PIMCO would be a possible choice of handling some of the bond issues...they currently have over 1.7 trillion in managed assets...

You buy into political rhetoric far too easily....

The SSI is funded by two Trust Funds, The Old Age and Survivors Insurance or OASI and DI or Disability Insurance.

In 1982 the OASI Fund was nearly depleted. Congress enacted temporary emergency legislation that permitted borrowing from other Federal trust funds and then later enacted legislation to strengthen OASI Trust Fund financing. The borrowed amounts were repaid with interest within 4 years.

Since then there have been many folks (like Ryan) with theories on how to handle this better. As a Taxpayer I've even heard the whole use a 401k plan and privatize it all that way there was less government involved and people could invest in solid plans in the 401k plan that would not only secure their accounts but increase the amounts that were in their accounts so that they would have even more to draw from.

Given the bad and risky investments that Goldman Sachs and others legally made that led to the last economic collapse in this Country, it's obvious that there are way more risks by using a Ryan type plan rather than the Current Govt plan that might cost us 3-4% annually. The thing is that just like in 1982 Congress will have a much smaller and more controllable way of rescuing the plan than what might happen if we were to privatize it as Ryan
Suggests.

There have been quite a few speculations that the Government will one day not be able to overcome such a disaster if funds were again depleted but it's more obvious that had we been under the Ryan Plan when the last economic collapse happened...people on SSI would be screwed right now and any plan to help recover that didn't involve Congress and
instead require the public sector to assist in the recovery would take much more time and a
much more difficult and risky approach to help recovery the fund.

In other words privatizing will probably set in stone a collapse that will become a historical moment in which many Americans will be looking for a leader to help to quickly fix the funds that were swallowed up by the many funds that some legal risk taker who is unaccountable to any of it. Just like the last collapse....we wouldn't find any leaders. What we would find is a bunch of Wall Street Execs who would point to a poor and risky investment that was legally set in place and there would be nobody to help fix the funds and the Government would probably have to step in and begin to reinstall a program like we have now in order to keep from there being a mass march on the private sectors who would probably still be getting bonus checks delivered to their houses while people on assistance were waiting for Congress to put an Emergency plan in place.

Ryan's plan is awful and it like many other Romney maneuvers will be Exposed for what they are...a 3 card monty that will make a few Rich and the masses will suffer and the Govt will Bailout the whole mess thus sinking our Country even further into a huge financial Mess.

[olevetonahill]

This isn't a liberal thing...it is both sides losing control of trillions of future moneys that they would be unable to spend as they do today...

I were talkin about the part I Bolded. :pirate:

[FaninAma]

Olevet, I guess he could give s*** about his kids then if he's willing to vote for a party that seems to care less about how much debt they saddle future generations with.

Sic 'Em, I am a Ron Paul supporter through and through. If it was just up to me I would sit out this and future pissing matches between the 2 major parties just like I did in 2008 but the GOP nominee actually made a stand on priniple today by nominating Ryan and so I offer it to my kids to support the party that is making some type of effort to cut back on the insane, immoral debt accumulation both parties have been engaging in for 35 years.

Sure, I wish they would stop treating our military like the world's police force and I wish they would take a stand against sell-out by both parties to the big banks and Wall Street but I will take what I can get now and work on the rest later. It is called incrementalism.

I was actually willing to give Obama a shot in regards to standing up to Wall Street. Well we've seen how his justice department has handled MF Global, the manipilation of th
e munincipal bond market by JP Morgan and other big banks and the prosecution of those who cost taxpayers trillions in the meltdown of 2008.

Am I concerned that Romney is just trying to placate the
true conservatives in his party? Sure I am. If he turns ou
t to be another Bush I am through with the Republicans and politics in this country. Eventually sanity will be forced on this country and its electorate after we go bankrupt.

[pphilfran]

The SSI is funded by two Trust Funds, The Old Age and Survivors Insurance or OASI and DI or Disability Insurance.



This is correct

[pphilfran]

In 1982 the OASI Fund was nearly depleted. Congress enacted temporary emergency legislation that permitted borrowing from other Federal trust funds and then later enacted legislation to strengthen OASI Trust Fund financing. The borrowed amounts were repaid with interest within 4 years.

Where did the interest money come from that made the fund whole?

Once we get past this we can move further on in your post...

[SoonerBread]

The SSI is funded by two Trust Funds, The Old Age and Survivors Insurance or OASI and DI or Disability Insurance.

In 1982 the OASI Fund was nearly depleted. Congress enacted temporary emergency legislation that permitted borrowing from other Federal trust funds and then later enacted legislation to strengthen OASI Trust Fund financing. The borrowed amounts were repaid with interest within 4 years.

Since then there have been many folks (like Ryan) with theories on how to handle this better. As a Taxpayer I've even heard the whole use a 401k plan and privatize it all that way there was less government involved and people could invest in solid plans in the 401k plan that would not only secure their accounts but increase the amounts that were in their accounts so that they would have even more to draw from.

Given the bad and risky investments that Goldman Sachs and others legally made that led to the last economic collapse in this Country, it's obvious that there are way more risks by using a Ryan type plan rather than the Current Govt plan that might cost us 3-4% annually. The thing is that just like in 1982 Congress will have a much smaller and more controllable way of rescuing the plan than what might happen if we were to privatize it as Ryan
Suggests.

There have been quite a few speculations that the Government will one day not be able to overcome such a disaster if funds were again depleted but it's more obvious that had we been under the Ryan Plan when the last economic collapse happened...people on SSI would be screwed right now and any plan to help recover that didn't involve Congress and
instead require the public sector to assist in the recovery would take much more time and a
much more difficult and risky approach to help recovery the fund.

In other words privatizing will probably set in stone a collapse that will become a historical moment in which many Americans will be looking for a leader to help to quickly fix the funds that were swallowed up by the many funds that some legal risk taker who is unaccountable to any of it. Just like the last collapse....we wouldn't find any leaders. What we would find is a bunch of Wall Street Execs who would point to a poor and risky investment that was legally set in place and there would be nobody to help fix the funds and the Government would probably have to step in and begin to reinstall a program like we have now in order to keep from there being a mass march on the private sectors who would probably still be getting bonus checks delivered to their houses while people on assistance were waiting for Congress to put an Emergency plan in place.

Ryan's plan is awful and it like many other Romney maneuvers will be Exposed for what they are...a 3 card monty that will make a few Rich and the masses will suffer and the Govt will Bailout the whole mess thus sinking our Country even further into a huge financial Mess.

K. So, how do we fix it? Keep doing what we're doing? Cuz that's exactly what we're doing right now. I seem to remember "hope and change" being this myopic mantra from the left. What's changed, other than how much debt we're in? Has anybody from the left come up with a plan to better the SS situation? And don't come back with this "well the right won't play ball and it's partisan politics as usual" bull crap. I'm talking about proposing an actual plan. All I ever hear anymore is how any plan proposed by the right is stupid/crazy/irresponsible/scary/disasterous from the left.

[pphilfran]

I were talkin about the part I Bolded. :pirate:

Sorry...my bad

[olevetonahill]

Sorry...my bad

:D

[olevetonahill]

Where did the interest money come from that made the fund whole?

Once we get past this we can move further on in your post...


K. So, how do we fix it? Keep doing what we're doing? Cuz that's exactly what we're doing right now. I seem to remember "hope and change" being this myopic mantra from the left. What's changed, other than how much debt we're in? Has anybody from the left come up with a plan to better the SS situation? And don't come back with this "well the right won't play ball and it's partisan politics as usual" bull crap. I'm talking about proposing an actual plan. All I ever hear anymore is how any plan proposed by the right is stupid/crazy/irresponsible/scary/disasterous from the left.

Now Yall did it,

[pphilfran]

-
K. So, how do we fix it? Keep doing what we're doing? Cuz that's exactly what we're doing right now. I seem to remember "hope and change" being this myopic mantra from the left. What's changed, other than how much debt we're in? Has anybody from the left come up with a plan to better the SS situation? And don't come back with this "well the right won't play ball and it's partisan politics as usual" bull crap. I'm talking about proposing an actual plan. All I ever hear anymore is how any plan proposed by the right is stupid/crazy/irresponsible/scary/disasterous from the left.

That is what they want...raise taxes on the well off...have more money to spend...more special issue bonds that we must pay interest to ourselves...and increased liability down the road...

We can raise the age to receive full benefits slowly...add a couple of years....bump the minimum to 140k....

Those two thing would keep it whole for eternity...

But that does not address Congress spending the money and the treasury paying interest to itself on the special issue bonds...add in Ryan's private account idea so that other pay the interest instead of the fed and we are golden

[pphilfran]

Now Yall did it,

This is gonna be fun....

[olevetonahill]

This is gonna be fun....
Yer fixin to see a Brain assplode :star:

[pphilfran]

Where did the interest money come from that made the fund whole?

Once we get past this we can move further on in your post...

Since this one seems to be a little difficult...I will ask a simpler question...

Where are the trillions of dollars that have been paid into SS over the many decades it has been in existence?

[olevetonahill]

Since this one seems to be a little difficult...I will ask a simpler question...

Where are the trillions of dollars that have been paid into SS over the many decades it has been in existence?
Dems spent it?

[pphilfran]

Hell, I will answer it for ya...

They spent it...every friggin penny...the hundred thousand plus that I have paid in and every penny you have paid in...

[pphilfran]

Very good Vet!

You get a gold star!

[pphilfran]

Now what did we get in return for the trillions spent over the many decades?

Special issue bonds..bonds that cannot be sold on the open market..

So the next question...

Who pays the interest on those special interest bonds?

[pphilfran]

Hell, that is so easy I will give ya a gimme...

The fed does...they pay interest on those bonds by either issuing new bonds or printing money to pay the interest...

I must admit that I do not know if the special issue bonds are normal interest bearing bonds or zero coupon bonds...I should study up....

[pphilfran]

We have now come a long way in our discussion...

Let's move forward...

We are going to get into our time machine and move to 2020...

At this time outgoing money will be greater than income...so we must now sell some of the special issue bonds to give everyone their fully promised SS payout...

Who do we sell those bonds to? They are special issue and cannot be sold on the open market...

Who could it be? Who is left?

Well, they sell them to themselves!

Now, this is a tough one...where will the money come from when they sell those bonds to themselves?

I will help you out and make it multiple choice..

A. Santa Clause
B. The Tooth Fairy
C. Taxpayers
D. Printing more money
E. Both C and D

Think hard...

[pphilfran]

That is probably enough to chew on for one evening...don't want anybodies head to explode...

[sappstuf]

Best defense money could buy..Walker could legally raise
unlimited funds (he did) and spend it as he saw fit (he did)
while his opponent was restricted. Walker had SEVEN times
the amount of money his opponent had. That's all history now.

Ryan's budget and Romney's agreement of it is the most
frightening circumstance my generation can face.. a voucher
system for Medicare and privatizing SS, deep cuts in education,
from college all the way down to Head Start so he can give very
lucrative tax "help" for those at the top..those job creators that
W wanted to and did help (question...where are all those jobs
that the "creators" were going to bring about? Nowhere, the
money went into the pockets of the "creators" instead of the
job market.) Food for thought...

Nice job pointing out how dumb the Dem's efforts to recall Walker was....

[sappstuf]

We have now come a long way in our discussion...

Let's move forward...

We are going to get into our time machine and move to 2020...

At this time outgoing money will be greater than income...so we must now sell some of the special issue bonds to give everyone their fully promised SS payout...

Who do we sell those bonds to? They are special issue and cannot be sold on the open market...

Who could it be? Who is left?

Well, they sell them to themselves!

Now, this is a tough one...where will the money come from when they sell those bonds to themselves?

I will help you out and make it multiple choice..

A. Santa Clause
B. The Tooth Fairy
C. Taxpayers
D. Printing more money
E. Both C and D

Think hard...

Ryan has been trying for years to have an adult conversation about this stuff... I know the Dems want no part in it and I'm not sure the general public wants one either.

[pphilfran]

Ryan has been trying for years to have an adult conversation about this stuff... I know the Dems want no part in it and I'm not sure the general public wants one either.

How ya doing? What exotic local are you now "visitin"...

[Skysooner]

Ryan has been trying for years to have an adult conversation about this stuff... I know the Dems want no part in it and I'm not sure the general public wants one either.

Adult conversation? I would love if that were true. I'm actually not that up on Ryan in general except the rhetoric that is thrown around. Both sides have to sit down at a table and be willing to let their "sacred cows" go. If taxes are raised too much, the economy tanks. If spending comes down too fast, the economy tanks. Set up a 10 year plan with mandatory specifics and maybe we can have an adult conversation

BTW, there is a big reason I don't listen to political rhetoric. My boss (one of the smartest men I know) told me the other day that Obamacare required a 3.8% tax on house sales on the gross proceeds. I immediately thought that doesn't sound right at all. Took me 5 seconds to find the Snopes look at it where yes there is a 3.8% tax but basically would only apply to very high wage earners and only on profits above a very high threshold (or something that is never going to apply to me, and I'm a top wage earner). There is just too much of this misinformation going around that takes too much of my time to debunk and prove wrong.

[diverdog]

Since this one seems to be a little difficult...I will ask a simpler question...

Where are the trillions of dollars that have been paid into SS over the many decades it has been in existence?

Most of it has been wasted by the military. They cannot account for 2.3 trillion dollars. And it maybe as high as $5 trillion dollars!


. More money for the Pentagon, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, while its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends.

"According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted.

$2.3 trillion — that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America. To understand how the Pentagon can lose track of trillions, consider the case of one military accountant who tried to find out what happened to a mere $300 million.

[diverdog]

Ryan has been trying for years to have an adult conversation about this stuff... I know the Dems want no part in it and I'm not sure the general public wants one either.

He doesn't want to raise taxes or cut the military. So how is that an adult conversation?

[SoonerBread]

Most of it has been wasted by the military. They cannot account for 2.3 trillion dollars. And it maybe as high as $5 trillion dollars!

Military spent SS money?

[SoonerProphet]

Didn't this guy vote for TARP? Isn't his patron Bill Kristol and a Weekly Standard "guy". I am a dubious of his conservative credentials and how this helps Mitt.

[sappstuf]

He doesn't want to raise taxes or cut the military. So how is that an adult conversation?

Levelheaded Dems have said repeatedly that Ryan's plan is a serious one, even if they don't support it.

Compare that to Obama's budget that had 610 votes against it and 0 for it in the House and Senate.

[olevetonahill]

Military spent SS money?
The Libs here said it . It must be true :bri:

[StoopTroup]

So.....what do we do about the SSI?

We damn sure don't do what Ryan is suggesting. As bad as many of you think these interest payments have been....the 1982 event was over 30 years ago and our elected Officials have done little to find a fix. At present we have a bunch of Chicken Littles running around saying something bad is going to happen soon and that our children will be left to pay a massive debt.

We all have been left to pay massive debts that previous administrations have amassed. In the last 20 years (at the very least), I've heard Conservatives laying out new policies hat never come to pass. The Flat Tax which I supported never came about as the folks who didn't like the idea that we couldn't have any write offs put that idea to death. I believe that group who put it to death were both Democrats and Republicans. They never gave it a chance.

That was when the National Debt was much less and if we had gone to War and began to have to increase the taxable rate, guys who owned businesses like Haliburton would have had to be a part of the American Tax Payers who would have had to pay an equal share to pay for the Trillions we have now amassed. Now nobody is asking for a flat tax to help pay this massive debt off. What we have is the Dems saying the rich need to have their percentage increased and the Republicans saying there are to many people and programs causing this massive debt. Neither will mention a flat tax, neither will mention cutting the military budget. Ryan will mention cutting programs for people who early don't need it but also won't mention cutting military costs for people who don't need it

All this on both parties is politics as usual.

Now...all I am getting at is that Ryan's plan really is to bankrupt Seniors so that they can start over and then pick who really needs it. That ought to scare anyone who really has no time to start a new career or roll the dice beleiving that Romney and Ryan are going to change things that you will be able to go out and get a business loan and start a new Business, hire unemployed people and become a successful business owner because they are going to lower the risks that new businesses face once they open the doors.

That's all just as much a bunch of kool-aid as anything the Obama Camp is proposing.

Right now I'm listening to the hour long speech Ryan gave on 5/16/2011 where he is proposing the same Recomendation that the Clinton Administration's Bi-partisan Agreement to save Medicare recommended in the late 1990's. The Idea originally came out of a Think Tank that came up with the idea years before that.

My worry is that Ryan is stuck on an
Idea that he thinks is the answer to a Medicare System
that had that solution a decade or more before we have the problems we do right now. It's an old idea that doesn't take into consideration the problems we now have. It's just like Grover Norquist. I had this idea when I was in 7th grade and I'm going to get my idea passed and I don't care if I'm 80 when it happens.

He's just not the genius he thinks he is. Time has already passed his idea by.

[sappstuf]

So.....what do we do about the SSI?

We damn sure don't do what Ryan is suggesting. As bad as many of you think these interest payments have been....the 1982 event was over 30 years ago and our elected Officials have done little to find a fix. At present we have a bunch of Chicken Littles running around saying something bad is going to happen soon and that our children will be left to pay a massive debt.

We all have been left to pay massive debts that previous administrations have amassed. In the last 20 years (at the very least), I've heard Conservatives laying out new policies hat never come to pass. The Flat Tax which I supported never came about as the folks who didn't like the idea that we couldn't have any write offs put that idea to death. I believe that group who put it to death were both Democrats and Republicans. They never gave it a chance.

That was when the National Debt was much less and if we had gone to War and began to have to increase the taxable rate, guys who owned businesses like Haliburton would have had to be a part of the American Tax Payers who would have had to pay an equal share to pay for the Trillions we have now amassed. Now nobody is asking for a flat tax to help pay this massive debt off. What we have is the Dems saying the rich need to have their percentage increased and the Republicans saying there are to many people and programs causing this massive debt. Neither will mention a flat tax, neither will mention cutting the military budget. Ryan will mention cutting programs for people who early don't need it but also won't mention cutting military costs for people who don't need it

All this on both parties is politics as usual.

Now...all I am getting at is that Ryan's plan really is to bankrupt Seniors so that they can start over and then pick who really needs it. That ought to scare anyone who really has no time to start a new career or roll the dice beleiving that Romney and Ryan are going to change things that you will be able to go out and get a business loan and start a new Business, hire unemployed people and become a successful business owner because they are going to lower the risks that new businesses face once they open the doors.

That's all just as much a bunch of kool-aid as anything the Obama Camp is proposing.

Right now I'm listening to the hour long speech Ryan gave on 5/16/2011 where he is proposing the same Recomendation that the Clinton Administration's Bi-partisan Agreement to save Medicare recommended in the late 1990's. The Idea originally came out of a Think Tank that came up with the idea years before that.

My worry is that Ryan is stuck on an
Idea that he thinks is the answer to a Medicare System
that had that solution a decade or more before we have the problems we do right now. It's an old idea that doesn't take into consideration the problems we now have. It's just like Grover Norquist. I had this idea when I was in 7th grade and I'm going to get my idea passed and I don't care if I'm 80 when it happens.

He's just not the genius he thinks he is. Time has already passed his idea by.

It says specifically in his plan that anyone over the age of 54 is grandfathered into the old system... There is no way you can come to the conclusion that his plan is to bankrupt Seniors unless you are being intellectually dishonest.

[Turd_Ferguson]

It says specifically in his plan that anyone over the age of 54 is grandfathered into the old system... There is no way you can come to the conclusion that his plan is to bankrupt Seniors unless you are being intellectually dishonest....or high.

[olevetonahill]

...or high.
Or
http://api.ning.com/files/lN7DYNRXMYQYtZ24Qf3FDAdGzqcc6DV8DfQtUogvFgSX2vzmUZ O373qH-VrNqz6mvpMLWwO6-vd*vrpd6IfvjStwc0Hwc8i5/COOCOO.jpg

[olevetonahill]

...or high.
Or
aw **** it

[SoonerBread]

I must admit, I quit reading after the bankrupt seniors bit. I was kinda sorta a little on-board until that part. Just read the whole thing and I think Turd might be right.

I'm not sure Troup is intellectually dishonest. But something is clouding his judgement.

[TitoMorelli]

Nice job pointing out how dumb the Dem's efforts to recall Walker was....


Time to cue the whiny "Democracy is dead" wuss:

jy8FSyI_Djg&start=49

(btw, I think the "outspent 7-to-1" claim, among other things, conveniently ignored all monies spent by the unions and Dems until after their primary).

[SCOUT]

Stoop, I love ya man, but you have to start posting abridged versions of your thoughts.

[Chuck Bao]

I will definitely have to scrap my plans of putting Obama signs on my property since my neighbor is Paul Ryan's father-in-law. Besides that, the local townspeople would now make a bonfire of the signs and roast me over it.

[SicEmBaylor]

I will definitely have to scrap my plans of putting Obama signs on my property since my neighbor is Paul Ryan's father-in-law. Besides that, the local townspeople would now make a bonfire of the signs and roast me over it.
To be fair, they likely would have roasted you for that even before Ryan was announced.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Best defense money could buy..Walker could legally raise
unlimited funds (he did) and spend it as he saw fit (he did)
while his opponent was restricted. Walker had SEVEN times
the amount of money his opponent had. That's all history now.

Ryan's budget and Romney's agreement of it is the most
frightening circumstance my generation can face.. a voucher
system for Medicare and privatizing SS, deep cuts in education,
from college all the way down to Head Start so he can give very
lucrative tax "help" for those at the top..those job creators that
W wanted to and did help (question...where are all those jobs
that the "creators" were going to bring about? Nowhere, the
money went into the pockets of the "creators" instead of the
job market.) Food for thought...

What needs to happen, otherwise SS ends in 2025 or thereabouts. This year marks the first year that SS recipients will collect less than they paid in. The burden will only increae...

[Chuck Bao]

To be fair, they likely would have roasted you for that even before Ryan was announced.

Yeah probably, but now it is very serious. My own mom would help stoke the bonfire since she taught Janna, Paul Ryan's wife, in elementary school. The whole town of Madill is giddy about seeing Janna on national TV this morning.

We finally have someone famous from Madill.

This is an article in the Washington Post about Janna.

Washington Post link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/post/janna-ryan-family-comes-first/2012/08/11/b532d882-e418-11e1-89f7-76e23a982d06_blog.html?fb_action_ids=4872698079686 07&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%22487269807968607%22%3A10151 086584323618%7D&action_type_map=%7B%22487269807968607%22%3A%22og.r ecommends%22%7D&action_ref_map=[])


Janna Ryan: Family comes first

By Suzi Parker

Janna Ryan, wife of Republican vice presidential pick Rep. Paul Ryan, is the poster girl for Generation X women who wanted to have it all.

Ryan, 43, like many of her 40-something peers, is a stay-at-home mother with an impressive resume. She prefers her husband’s hometown, Janesville, Wis., to Washington and remains out of the political limelight.

But Janna Christine Little Ryan hails from Oklahoma, a state known for its Will Rogers’s common-sense ideals mixed with a smidgen of Wild West attitude.

She grew up Madill, Okla., in the southern part of the state on the Texas state line. Founded in 1901, the small town, population 3,781 in 2009, was a spot on the train route from Dallas to Tulsa. Madill is also known for its trailer manufacturing firms.

Politics, it appears, was in Janna’s blood from the beginning.

The Oklahoman’s political blog reported Saturday that her grandfather, Reuel W. Little, was a lawyer and rancher in the state who helped form a third political party in Oklahoma in the 1960s. His 1993 obituary stated that he was the American Party’s gubernatorial candidate in 1970. Three years earlier, Little started the push for a third party in order to get former Alabama governor George Wallace on the ballot as a presidential candidate.

Janna’s first cousin is Oklahoma Democratic Rep. Dan Boren. He issued a statement on Saturday about the Ryans:

“Andrea and I are excited for Paul and Janna. Janna and I grew up together and I couldn’t be more proud of my cousin. Like my late mother after whom she is named, Janna is a wonderful parent to their children and will be Paul’s strongest supporter on the campaign trail.”

Janna left Oklahoma to attend Wellesley College, the alma mater of many remarkable women including Hillary Clinton, Madeleine Albright and Diane Sawyer. After graduation, she attended George Washington University Law School and became a tax attorney and lobbyist for PricewaterhouseCoopers in Arlington, Va.

Janna met Paul through a mutual friend. Rumor has it that the pair often hunted together (Paul Ryan prefers bows and arrows for hunting) during their brief courtship in 1999. They even shared a deer stand. Not surprising, since every Oklahoma woman I know loves to hunt.

Paul asked Janna to marry him on a lake where he often fished. They married in Oklahoma City in 2000 and then settled in Ryan’s Wisconsin’s home town, population 63,479, where they live in a historic house with six bedrooms and eight baths.

The couple has three children: Elizabeth Anne, Charles Wilson, and Samuel Lowery. According to news reports, Janna is a devout Catholic and attends St. John Vianney Catholic Church with her husband when he is in town.

An owner of an Italian restaurant in Janesville told Politico, “She’s a very soft spoken, elegant, and lady-like. Very family-oriented. Always with her kids, always here picking up food for her family. Just warm, easygoing, not upfront in the public arena. You can see her on the TV, she really stays back and doesn’t attract much attention to herself. Just an amazing lady-like figure.”

Women of Janna’s generation, who favor the Mommy culture, will certainly connect with her even if they may not agree politically with her husband. An intelligent woman who married a successful man, Janna wanted to be a mom more than a career woman trying to break a glass ceiling.

Maybe some would question her choice, or wonder if she does. But from all that’s public about Janna so far, one thing is clear: Her family comes first.

Suzi Parker is an Arkansas-based political and cultural journalist and author of “Sex in the South: Unbuckling the Bible Belt.” Follow her on Twitter at @SuziParker

[SicEmBaylor]

That's interesting that Boren is her first cousin.

[pphilfran]

Adult conversation? I would love if that were true. I'm actually not that up on Ryan in general except the rhetoric that is thrown around. Both sides have to sit down at a table and be willing to let their "sacred cows" go. If taxes are raised too much, the economy tanks. If spending comes down too fast, the economy tanks. Set up a 10 year plan with mandatory specifics and maybe we can have an adult conversation

BTW, there is a big reason I don't listen to political rhetoric. My boss (one of the smartest men I know) told me the other day that Obamacare required a 3.8% tax on house sales on the gross proceeds. I immediately thought that doesn't sound right at all. Took me 5 seconds to find the Snopes look at it where yes there is a 3.8% tax but basically would only apply to very high wage earners and only on profits above a very high threshold (or something that is never going to apply to me, and I'm a top wage earner). There is just too much of this misinformation going around that takes too much of my time to debunk and prove wrong.

Good post...I do not believe anything I hear coming out of DC...it only takes a few minutes to check and see if the info is accurate...the vast majority of the time the info only tells one side of the story and is heavily weighted to help their agenda...

[pphilfran]

Military spent SS money?

Yes..it was used for the military...for the bailouts...for the stimulus...for NASA..every single program...the cash came in...special interest bonds were printed...OUR SS money was then spent as general tax revenue...and now we are left with trillions of dollars of bonds that cannot be sold on the open market...

[pphilfran]

So.....what do we do about the SSI?

We damn sure don't do what Ryan is suggesting. As bad as many of you think these interest payments have been....the 1982 event was over 30 years ago and our elected Officials have done little to find a fix. At present we have a bunch of Chicken Littles running around saying something bad is going to happen soon and that our children will be left to pay a massive debt.

We all have been left to pay massive debts that previous administrations have amassed. In the last 20 years (at the very least), I've heard Conservatives laying out new policies hat never come to pass. The Flat Tax which I supported never came about as the folks who didn't like the idea that we couldn't have any write offs put that idea to death. I believe that group who put it to death were both Democrats and Republicans. They never gave it a chance.

That was when the National Debt was much less and if we had gone to War and began to have to increase the taxable rate, guys who owned businesses like Haliburton would have had to be a part of the American Tax Payers who would have had to pay an equal share to pay for the Trillions we have now amassed. Now nobody is asking for a flat tax to help pay this massive debt off. What we have is the Dems saying the rich need to have their percentage increased and the Republicans saying there are to many people and programs causing this massive debt. Neither will mention a flat tax, neither will mention cutting the military budget. Ryan will mention cutting programs for people who early don't need it but also won't mention cutting military costs for people who don't need it

All this on both parties is politics as usual.

Now...all I am getting at is that Ryan's plan really is to bankrupt Seniors so that they can start over and then pick who really needs it. That ought to scare anyone who really has no time to start a new career or roll the dice beleiving that Romney and Ryan are going to change things that you will be able to go out and get a business loan and start a new Business, hire unemployed people and become a successful business owner because they are going to lower the risks that new businesses face once they open the doors.

That's all just as much a bunch of kool-aid as anything the Obama Camp is proposing.

Right now I'm listening to the hour long speech Ryan gave on 5/16/2011 where he is proposing the same Recomendation that the Clinton Administration's Bi-partisan Agreement to save Medicare recommended in the late 1990's. The Idea originally came out of a Think Tank that came up with the idea years before that.

My worry is that Ryan is stuck on an
Idea that he thinks is the answer to a Medicare System
that had that solution a decade or more before we have the problems we do right now. It's an old idea that doesn't take into consideration the problems we now have. It's just like Grover Norquist. I had this idea when I was in 7th grade and I'm going to get my idea passed and I don't care if I'm 80 when it happens.

He's just not the genius he thinks he is. Time has already passed his idea by.

SSI?

I thought we were talking about SS...SSI is completely different animal and is not funded through actual payroll (SS/Med) taxes...it is paid out through the general revenue fund (income taxes)....

[pphilfran]

Let's look at the benefit of moving some of the SS revenue into the private market...

1. Congress can't spend it...it is now out of their hands
2. We don't have to pay interest on the notes...a public company would pay the interest...lowering our long term liability
3. More money moving into the open bond market would lower bond yields...if you have a lot more money chasing your bonds you don't need to price them as high to sell them...so a city or state wishing to issue a bond to build schools or other needed items would now have to pay a lower interest rate...less cost to the city/state...less cost to the taxpayer....a fiscal stimulus each and every year...

[pphilfran]

Now...all I am getting at is that Ryan's plan really is to bankrupt Seniors so that they can start over and then pick who really needs it.

Here it is folks...the fear card...the only card that trumps the fear card is...yep...the race card...

Thumbing through my hand I wasn't dealt a race card so I guess I lose...

[okie52]

Here it is folks...the fear card...the only card that trumps the fear card is...yep...the race card...

Thumbing through my hand I wasn't dealt a race card so I guess I lose...

Unfortunately stupidity continues to be the winner.

[Skysooner]

Good post...I do not believe anything I hear coming out of DC...it only takes a few minutes to check and see if the info is accurate...the vast majority of the time the info only tells one side of the story and is heavily weighted to help their agenda...

That is so true.

[StoopTroup]

SSI?

I thought we were talking about SS...SSI is completely different animal and is not funded through actual payroll (SS/Med) taxes...it is paid out through the general revenue fund (income taxes)....

We are I was posting from my IPhone. Didn't see it put that on there.

[Turd_Ferguson]

We are I was posting from my IPhone. Didn't see it put that on there.:chuncky:

[East Coast Bias]

Let's look at the benefit of moving some of the SS revenue into the private market...

1. Congress can't spend it...it is now out of their hands
2. We don't have to pay interest on the notes...a public company would pay the interest...lowering our long term liability
3. More money moving into the open bond market would lower bond yields...if you have a lot more money chasing your bonds you don't need to price them as high to sell them...so a city or state wishing to issue a bond to build schools or other needed items would now have to pay a lower interest rate...less cost to the city/state...less cost to the taxpayer....a fiscal stimulus each and every year...
Look I don't think seniors are bankrupted in this, but it seems the cost has to go up overall. Giving my 80 year old grandma a voucher for 3K when the insurance companies want 6K is going to help? Okay sure she can still go back to traditional medicare, but the younger folks that do use the vouchers are going to reduce the medicare pool significantly and doesn't that increase the cost?
To me SS is a simple issue. Lets up the age limit gradually over time and increase the contribution limit to 200K. Problem solved,FOREVER. We have to keep congress from raiding the funds and that has to be addressed. Lets put some laws in place that prevent that. Can we at least compromise on that, for God's sake?
I don't pretend to know about all the finer points of the bond system, but does it really make any difference if we print more money to fund medicare or if we print more money to fund the military?They both are sucking the life out of future generations and both parties seem to prefer holding one hostage to the other.....

[pphilfran]

-

That is what they want...raise taxes on the well off...have more money to spend...more special issue bonds that we must pay interest to ourselves...and increased liability down the road...

We can raise the age to receive full benefits slowly...add a couple of years....bump the minimum to 140k....

Those two thing would keep it whole for eternity...

But that does not address Congress spending the money and the treasury paying interest to itself on the special issue bonds...add in Ryan's private account idea so that other pay the interest instead of the fed and we are golden

This is my take from earlier in the thread...looking at the numbers I don't think we need to go to 200k...

Once all of us baby boomers are pushing up daisies we can lower the limit...

My problem with keeping the money in the special issue bonds is that the cash is freed up...our DC leadership will spend every freaking penny...just like they have since day 1...

[StoopTroup]

Here it is folks...the fear card...the only card that trumps the fear card is...yep...the race card...

Thumbing through my hand I wasn't dealt a race card so I guess I lose...

That's the thing. The fear card is being played by both. The fear I was talking about is also the fear that it will be bankrupt if we don't adopt Ryan's Plan too.

[StoopTroup]

This is my take from earlier in the thread...looking at the numbers I don't think we need to go to 200k...

Once all of us baby boomers are pushing up daisies we can lower the limit...

My problem with keeping the money in the special issue bonds is that the cash is freed up...our DC leadership will spend every freaking penny...just like they have since day 1...

That's a form of fear and a lack of trust. I think we have every right to elect people to represent our State and they should be the ones that make sure you don't have to worry about every penney and that our Tax Dollars are spent for what we legislate it to be spent on. If it isn't they should make sure it is. If they don't then you should vote for who you think will.

I am pretty sure that's why there are two sides arguing and very divided right now in our Country. After the last 8 years of Bush spending...a lot of folks felt our tax dollars went into some folks hands that didn't deserve a guaranteed freebie. If that's what the GOP was going to do with this Country....they can just go back to the Democrat's ideas. Now we have problems that will take years to fix and many of us have zero faith in folks like Romney or Paul.

[pphilfran]

Look I don't think seniors are bankrupted in this, but it seems the cost has to go up overall. Giving my 80 year old grandma a voucher for 3K when the insurance companies want 6K is going to help? Okay sure she can still go back to traditional medicare, but the younger folks that do use the vouchers are going to reduce the medicare pool significantly and doesn't that increase the cost?
To me SS is a simple issue. Lets up the age limit gradually over time and increase the contribution limit to 200K. Problem solved,FOREVER. We have to keep congress from raiding the funds and that has to be addressed. Lets put some laws in place that prevent that. Can we at least compromise on that, for God's sake?
I don't pretend to know about all the finer points of the bond system, but does it really make any difference if we print more money to fund medicare or if we print more money to fund the military?They both are sucking the life out of future generations and both parties seem to prefer holding one hostage to the other.....

Here is the overall budget problem...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals

1. (Table 3.1) Net interest payments on the debt is currently 230 billion per year...by 2017 that number grows to 565 billion...and this is with short term bonds...what is going to happen to that 565 billion if the interest rate climbs significantly? One thing I do know is that interest rates are not going lower...

2. National defense actually declines from the current 705 billion per year to 589 in 2017

3. Human resources 2.4 trillion to 3.1 trillion

4. Total budget from the current 3.6 trillion to 4.5 trillion..nearly a friggin trillion is increased spending from 2011 to 2017

5. (Table 1.4) By 2017, even with those cuts in defense we are still 612 billion in the red...we could eliminate all of military spending and we are still in the red....

6, (Table 10.1) GDP is projected to grow from the current 15 trillion a year to 20 trillion a year by 2017...really? A 33% increase in 6 years? Aint...gonna....happen...So that 612 billion in the red is pie in the sky stuff...we are likely to push a trillion a year far into the future...and that will add to the debt...which will add to the 565 billion a year in net interest payments...and that ain't gonna be good...

FOUR POINT FIVE TRILLION PER YEAR IN 2017

FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS PER CITIZEN IN 2017

The numbers I have used are from Obama's own budget projections...and you can bet you last dollar these are best case numbers and not worst case numbers...

If we do not do something yesterday we will have no chance of recovering...and I am not trying to preach gloom and doom...just looking at the numbers and trying to find a way out of this mess...

If the economy doesn't get up to speed quickly we will be buried in debt with no way out....get the economy up and running and we still face significant cuts across the board...

Sorry to be such a prick on the deal...but we as Americans must wake up and face the facts...

[pphilfran]

By 2017

If you are married your share of the spending will be THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS
IF you are married with two kids your share of the spending will be SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS

[pphilfran]

Knock, Knock...the debt collector is banging on our door....

Vote all the bastards out!

[StoopTroup]

Excellent fear....lol

How much will Govt Cheese go for on the black market? I don't want to wait in the breadlines.

[pphilfran]

Excellent fear....lol

How much will Govt Cheese go for on the black market? I don't want to wait in the breadlines.

This isn't fear...I used the actual numbers from the Obama budget...

Do you disagree with any of the numbers that I have posted?

[East Coast Bias]

The place where the credibility goes is after all the talk about which programs have to go, what has to be done and who has to pay the wealthy still get their tax benefits and bonus and the military is untouchable.For all of the bluster from Ryan, he went along with 2 un-funded wars and tax- cuts for the rich. I am not saying these are your views Phil, but they are part of the discourse. I also don't think most people give 2---- about the deficit. They are more concerned with what is close at hand. I think I could balance the budget in 5 minutes. I would start with cutting the military by 50% and killing the Bush tax cuts and work from there.

[okie52]

The place where the credibility goes is after all the talk about which programs have to go, what has to be done and who has to pay the wealthy still get their tax benefits and bonus and the military is untouchable.For all of the bluster from Ryan, he went along with 2 un-funded wars and tax- cuts for the rich. I am not saying these are your views Phil, but they are part of the discourse. I also don't think most people give 2---- about the deficit. They are more concerned with what is close at hand. I think I could balance the budget in 5 minutes. I would start with cutting the military by 50% and killing the Bush tax cuts and work from there.

Killing all of the bush tax cuts?

How long a time for cutting the military by 50%? A year...2 years...25 years?

[pphilfran]

The place where the credibility goes is after all the talk about which programs have to go, what has to be done and who has to pay the wealthy still get their tax benefits and bonus and the military is untouchable.For all of the bluster from Ryan, he went along with 2 un-funded wars and tax- cuts for the rich. I am not saying these are your views Phil, but they are part of the discourse. I also don't think most people give 2---- about the deficit. They are more concerned with what is close at hand. I think I could balance the budget in 5 minutes. I would start with cutting the military by 50% and killing the Bush tax cuts and work from there.

The Bush tax cuts will only give us about a half percent of GDP...and that includes raising taxes on all taxpayers regardless of income level...only drop the cuts on those making over 250k and we pull in less than point three percent......at current levels we need over 3% to have a chance...cutting defense by 50% in a time frame of anything less than 10 years would decimate an entire sector of high paying jobs and would do severe harm to the economy...

We need revenue at 20% of GDP...and since we are at 15 or 16% at the current time we have a long way to go....Clinton type levels...and he pulled those numbers with a booming economy, computer revolution, and declining interest rates...and we have nothing similar to any of those parameters happening at this time...

We need to cut spending from the current 24% level to at least 20% for at least 5 to 10 years...

It is going to be damn painful to raise revenue by 30% and cut spending by 16%....

The priority must be to get the economy up and running and get people off the unemployment rolls..

[pphilfran]

Notice how mandatory spending is taking a bigger and bigger chunk of total revenue...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/1spend-2.jpg

[pphilfran]

Cut military spending by half...

Altus AFB is history...Altus is a ghost town
Vance AFB is history...Enid is empty...

What will you do with all of the military and contractors that get laid off?

[pphilfran]

Shut down a significant portion of overseas bases...

Bring those guys home and at least spend the money here...that is an added stimulus without spending an additional penny...

[pphilfran]

Freeze spending at current levels...inflation will slowly reign in excess...

Raise SS age limit...increase max wage limit to 140k (somewhere in that range)..privatize

Flat tax or value added tax or some other type system designed to bankrupt H&R Block and the IRS..exempt necessities..it would be a high rate..upwards of 30%

I don't have a clue on what to do with Medicare or Medicaid...

After 6 months of unemployment you have mandatory drug testing and work 20 hours per week picking up trash and mowing grass and doing janitorial at fed offices

Congress meets 7 days a week 364 days a year ( I will be nice and give em Christmas day off) until budget is balanced...

[rock on sooner]

Shut down a significant portion of overseas bases...

Bring those guys home and at least spend the money here...that is an added stimulus without spending an additional penny...

In an earlier thread I offered this about the military:
Consolidate overseas bases 2 and 3 into one. Crosstrain the
redundancies and rotate home to other civilian type jobs,
especially the engineer type jobs for bridges, highways etc.

Reduce carrier battlegroups from eleven to nine or even eight.
(Not sure why we have 11 anyhow.) A lot of the weapons systems
are not needed so cut back there.

Freeze recruiting for at least three years, to see how retention
will work out to reduce the force size. There will be huge cross
training for all the branches. The size will come into line with
needs, since we'll be out of Afghanistan in 2014.

Military leaders are looking at reshaping, retasking and reorganizing
now, anyway.

When I got out in '67, USAFSS was consolidating and downsizing
because of increasing satellite technology. We have a lot of bases
overseas, just to keep foreign gov'ts happy...you know how they
love our tax dollars!

[pphilfran]

In an earlier thread I offered this about the military:
Consolidate overseas bases 2 and 3 into one. Crosstrain the
redundancies and rotate home to other civilian type jobs,
especially the engineer type jobs for bridges, highways etc.

Reduce carrier battlegroups from eleven to nine or even eight.
(Not sure why we have 11 anyhow.) A lot of the weapons systems
are not needed so cut back there.

Freeze recruiting for at least three years, to see how retention
will work out to reduce the force size. There will be huge cross
training for all the branches. The size will come into line with
needs, since we'll be out of Afghanistan in 2014.

Military leaders are looking at reshaping, retasking and reorganizing
now, anyway.

When I got out in '67, USAFSS was consolidating and downsizing
because of increasing satellite technology. We have a lot of bases
overseas, just to keep foreign gov'ts happy...you know how they
love our tax dollars!

l like these thoughts...

[rock on sooner]

Freeze spending at current levels...inflation will slowly reign in excess...

Raise SS age limit...increase max wage limit to 140k (somewhere in that range)..privatize

Flat tax or value added tax or some other type system designed to bankrupt H&R Block and the IRS..exempt necessities..it would be a high rate..upwards of 30%

I don't have a clue on what to do with Medicare or Medicaid...

After 6 months of unemployment you have mandatory drug testing and work 20 hours per week picking up trash and mowing grass and doing janitorial at fed offices

Congress meets 7 days a week 364 days a year ( I will be nice and give em Christmas day off) until budget is balanced...

Phil, I don't think privatizing SS is the right thing to do, if it's going to
depend on the whims of the stock market.

Flat tax and/or VAT is really regressive, it hits the poor and working
poor very hard, as well as fixed income folks.

My argument about Medicare/Medicaid is that those issues can be
solved with a thorough 50 state scrub for fraud, waste and abuse.
There was a case in Texas where fraudsters were rolled up to the
tune of, I think 8 or 9 billion...another is Florida that saved even
more. The ACA is going to help some with controlling reimburse-
ments.

I like your last two points...the 6 month idea...and, well, the 535
monkeys in Washington should be given to do lists by bipartisan
citizen committees at the start of each session and not be allowed
to go home until the entire list is finished.

[East Coast Bias]

Freeze spending at current levels...inflation will slowly reign in excess...

Raise SS age limit...increase max wage limit to 140k (somewhere in that range)..privatize

Flat tax or value added tax or some other type system designed to bankrupt H&R Block and the IRS..exempt necessities..it would be a high rate..upwards of 30%

I don't have a clue on what to do with Medicare or Medicaid...

After 6 months of unemployment you have mandatory drug testing and work 20 hours per week picking up trash and mowing grass and doing janitorial at fed offices

Congress meets 7 days a week 364 days a year ( I will be nice and give em Christmas day off) until budget is balanced...

N
Not bad, I agree with most of that, still not sold on privatizing.I don't trust the corporations any more than you guys trust the government. Cutting the military by 50% would have to occur over time, but there is plenty to work with. I totally agree with closing overseas bases, bringing the troops home to work here.Closing bases here is a tough move, but can we afford these? I know its not a lot of money but I would cut off all foreign aid not related to humanitarian issues. That would be Israel, Egypt,Iraq,etc. We can't administer welfare to the world and these guys need to stand on their own.
Look, I am a hard-line liberal but agree with you guys on a lot of this, why can't the politicians think about what's best for the country and get stuff going? I would dump all the perks for Congresmen; healthcare, pensions, etc. You get elected to a 4-year term and get a pension for life? As far as unemployment benefits, I have been unemployed before and know what that means to a family, but my neighbor across the street has been on unemployment for three years. THREE YEARS...

[C&CDean]

My thoughts?

If you are relying on SS for any part of your future security, you're a damned fool. I feel very fortunate in that I will never collect it, because I've never had to pay into it - other than my 3-years in the military and a few odd jobs before I joined the military. Y'all can have my ~$1,500 I put in there over 35 years ago. I don't need it.

[East Coast Bias]

And how about saving all the state budgets, Phil? See how this sounds- The problem boiled down to its least common denominator is funding public employee pensions. Again, I am a self-professed liberal and my wife is a school teacher, but pensions are a thing of the past. Oh sure, they are nice if we could afford them, but who gets a pension today in the private-sector? The states need to only offer 401K's going forward and only grand-father pensions they are committed to now. This would apply to police, fire, teachers, etc. This is the same issue burning down the Post Office. My wife counters that this is part of the compensation and the reason for getting into the field and we would have to start paying more money in the form of a salary. I agree with this, but not hard to fund long-term pensions....

[okie52]

My thoughts?

If you are relying on SS for any part of your future security, you're a damned fool. I feel very fortunate in that I will never collect it, because I've never had to pay into it - other than my 3-years in the military and a few odd jobs before I joined the military. Y'all can have my ~$1,500 I put in there over 35 years ago. I don't need it.


Thank you....I'll look forward to it in about 5 years.

[rock on sooner]

My thoughts?

If you are relying on SS for any part of your future security, you're a damned fool. I feel very fortunate in that I will never collect it, because I've never had to pay into it - other than my 3-years in the military and a few odd jobs before I joined the military. Y'all can have my ~$1,500 I put in there over 35 years ago. I don't need it.

Dean, fact is, SS is the most successful gov't program ever.
Not a politician alive got the guts to do anything but try to
extend it, protect it, improve it. Anything detrimental to
it is political suicide. Ryan's budget proposes this or that
but, in reality, the salary cap will go up, age eligibilities
will increase and the gov't will keep raiding it.

[pphilfran]

Phil, I don't think privatizing SS is the right thing to do, if it's going to
depend on the whims of the stock market.

Flat tax and/or VAT is really regressive, it hits the poor and working
poor very hard, as well as fixed income folks.

My argument about Medicare/Medicaid is that those issues can be
solved with a thorough 50 state scrub for fraud, waste and abuse.
There was a case in Texas where fraudsters were rolled up to the
tune of, I think 8 or 9 billion...another is Florida that saved even
more. The ACA is going to help some with controlling reimburse-
ments.

I like your last two points...the 6 month idea...and, well, the 535
monkeys in Washington should be given to do lists by bipartisan
citizen committees at the start of each session and not be allowed
to go home until the entire list is finished.

Doesn't have to be in the stock market...Pimco and others in bond related investments..Diver knows of at least one other massive company that could handle the funding with little risk...SS money into the bond market would drive interest rates down which would help every city and state with funding projects...it would result in yearly stimulus...

Flat tax can be regressive so we would need to be careful in how it is set up...eliminating basics necessities helps somewhat...I want to minimize the IRS...I want to drive H&R Block and others out of business...at least a massive overhaul of the current system that makes so you can do your taxes on the back of a matchbook...

I will check to your knowledge on the Meds...too far out of my scope of knowledge...

[pphilfran]

Dean, fact is, SS is the most successful gov't program ever.
Not a politician alive got the guts to do anything but try to
extend it, protect it, improve it. Anything detrimental to
it is political suicide. Ryan's budget proposes this or that
but, in reality, the salary cap will go up, age eligibilities
will increase and the gov't will keep raiding it.

Truth

[pphilfran]

And how about saving all the state budgets, Phil? See how this sounds- The problem boiled down to its least common denominator is funding public employee pensions. Again, I am a self-professed liberal and my wife is a school teacher, but pensions are a thing of the past. Oh sure, they are nice if we could afford them, but who gets a pension today in the private-sector? The states need to only offer 401K's going forward and only grand-father pensions they are committed to now. This would apply to police, fire, teachers, etc. This is the same issue burning down the Post Office. My wife counters that this is part of the compensation and the reason for getting into the field and we would have to start paying more money in the form of a salary. I agree with this, but not hard to fund long-term pensions....

I haven't really dug into the state situation...so I stay neutral on the subject...

As far as teachers go I can see both sides of the argument...like you say long term pensions end up costing an extreme amount of money...this is another area I tend to stay neutral...both of my sisters teach..

[pphilfran]

It is easier for us to come to some consensus since we are not counting votes or lining our reelection pockets with big donor money...

[pphilfran]

My thoughts?

If you are relying on SS for any part of your future security, you're a damned fool. I feel very fortunate in that I will never collect it, because I've never had to pay into it - other than my 3-years in the military and a few odd jobs before I joined the military. Y'all can have my ~$1,500 I put in there over 35 years ago. I don't need it.

Dean..SS is in far better shape than the USPS...I would be far more concerned about future USPS entitlement payments then SS payments...USPS is going to be gutted like a fresh caught catfish....

[rock on sooner]

Dean..SS is in far better shape than the USPS...I would be far more concerned about future USPS entitlement payments then SS payments...USPS is going to be gutted like a fresh caught catfish....

Oooh, fresh, rolled in egg wash and corn meal in hot canola
oil, sweet onions, fresh tomato/cucumber/olive oil/garlic
salad...Oh My, Heaven on earth...

[hawaii 5-0]

I think if Ryan/Romney/Obama want health reform they should go after the HMOs and Health insurers that are making hugh profits while denying payments to doctors, hospitals, etc.

They're the real crooks.

I have no problem with tort reform either.

Anytime there's a rise in healthcare it's always passed on to the patients.

I don't want some voucher, E-ticket, or get out of jail hall pass. I want to go see a doctor or go to a hospital and not have to pay out the azz.

I don't want to have to sell my home because some suit behind a desk denied coverage due to a preexisting condition.


5-0

[SoonerBread]

Flat tax and/or VAT is really regressive, it hits the poor and working
poor very hard, as well as fixed income folks.

Not trying to cherry pick your post, and I realize it was directed at Phil, but I'm not sure I'm sold on the argument a flat tax hits the poor all that hard. I guess I need someone to expound on this concept.

If the idea is to increase tax revenue, then this seems to be the most equitable way to do so. I realize those with less income will see a higher percentage of that income spent on things they purchase due to the added tax rate. But if they're poor and are having a hard time making rent or paying utility bills, they shouldn't be buying XBox 360s and PS3s anyway. Maybe they will spend their money more judiciously instead of on frivilous things. If the flat tax isn't applied to basic necessities, e.g. groceries, and is applied to the types of things you buy in malls or big box stores, then what's the harm? I know if the size of my paycheck increases because I'm not paying the Fed right off the top, I'd probably be more inclined to purchase things I wouldn't ordinarily. But I'm not living hand-to-mouth. I also like to think I exhibit some personal responsibility in that if I can't pay cash for it, I can't afford it. But that's a different topic altogether.

I guess what I'm asking is how regressive is it really? If the IRS is put out to pasture, income taxes are eliminated, and everyone is on equal footing as far as each person, citizen or not, pays some taxes (more or less depending on how much they want to spend on things they think they need or don't need), I can't really see how the fair tax would be regressive (read unfair). I admit I haven't looked at the issue all that much, and I've only scratched the surface of how it would be applied, so if someone with more knowledge on it would educate me, I'd be most appreciative. Or maybe two folks on opposite sides of the issue can present arguments for and against?

[rock on sooner]

Bread, wish I knew how to pick out the phrases you use to be
more to the point...But, fact is, unless you are specific about each
item that you can buy that is exempt from flat/VAT, then you will
do nothing but damage a very large part of the population. Growing
up, my folks HAD to use commodities to get by (trans., cheese, powdered
milk, peanut butter, lard..etc) to help feed me and my two brothers
and sister. To think that does not exist now is foolish, because it does.
Considering that a flat tax hits on everything or a VAT hits on some things
then to believe that poor, working poor and fixed income aren't affected
then you are in the same group as Ryan/Romney/Rove et al.

It is maddening to think that so many people buy into this stuff with
no regard for those that try but can't do better. JMO..

[Sooner5030]

I think if Ryan/Romney/Obama want health reform they should go after the HMOs and Health insurers that are making hugh profits while denying payments to doctors, hospitals, etc.

They're the real crooks.

I have no problem with tort reform either.

Anytime there's a rise in healthcare it's always passed on to the patients.

I don't want some voucher, E-ticket, or get out of jail hall pass. I want to go see a doctor or go to a hospital and not have to pay out the azz.

I don't want to have to sell my home because some suit behind a desk denied coverage due to a preexisting condition.


5-0

If HMOs are so profitable then why don't you put your capital at risk and start your own insurance co. Either it is not that profitable or prohibitive regs are a barrier to entry to new firms that want to compete.

How do you feel about microsoft? What gross margin or profit = crooks?

I'd say that med-tech is doing better than insurance...profit wise.

[SCOUT]

Hollywood film studios have a pretty healthy profit margin.

[rock on sooner]

Hollywood film studios have a pretty healthy profit margin.

Sorry, help me here, what does film studio profits have to do
with this discussion?

[FaninAma]

The ugly fact is none of the politicians from either party have the backbone to do what is needed to avoid the meltdown occuring in the European Union even though they can see with their own eyes what happens when unbridled social spending is left to grow unchecked generation after generation.

We are following the same path like lemmings.

I guess the laws of economics will eventually handle the debt accumulation excesses. The incredible debt burden we've accumulated since thd 1940's will eventually be reconciled in a very ugly manner.

[EnragedOUfan]

My thoughts?

If you are relying on SS for any part of your future security, you're a damned fool. I feel very fortunate in that I will never collect it, because I've never had to pay into it - other than my 3-years in the military and a few odd jobs before I joined the military. Y'all can have my ~$1,500 I put in there over 35 years ago. I don't need it.

Consider yourself one of the fortunate people in life Dean', because there are many people who weren't so lucky in life and ultimately rely on social security...........Not everyone in life has a couple of hundred thousand in the bank to live on for retirement.

Plus, once someone hits their seventies, its really hard to work and provide for themselves. Unlike many, I have no problem with Social Security. I'm one of the few who think we should honor our senior citizens and not let them fend for themselves.......

[diverdog]

Levelheaded Dems have said repeatedly that Ryan's plan is a serious one, even if they don't support it.

Compare that to Obama's budget that had 610 votes against it and 0 for it in the House and Senate.

Do you mean Dixiecrats?

[diverdog]

Dean..SS is in far better shape than the USPS...I would be far more concerned about future USPS entitlement payments then SS payments...USPS is going to be gutted like a fresh caught catfish....

Not to pick on Dean but I just do not think federal employees know how good they have it. There is no retirement system in the civilian world that is comparable. All my retirement statements from my company show SS as part of my retirement and I am planning on it being there. Between my wife and I we should get over 50k per year if not more. That is not chump change. We can live on our savings and other retirement plans but SS will allow us to live a whole lot better.

[diverdog]

The ugly fact is none of the politicians from either party have the backbone to do what is needed to avoid the meltdown occuring in the European Union even though they can see with their own eyes what happens when unbridled social spending is left to grow unchecked generation after generation.

We are following the same path like lemmings.

I guess the laws of economics will eventually handle the debt accumulation excesses. The incredible debt burden we've accumulated since thd 1940's will eventually be reconciled in a very ugly manner.

Our tax rates are far far lower than Europes. Statistically half the people on this board pay no federal tax.

[okie52]

Our tax rates are far far lower than Europes. Statistically half the people on this board pay no federal tax.

Is Europe the model we should seek?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Many on this forum sure seem to think so...

I wonder who will be first to say they agree with France's new 75% tax rate???

[rock on sooner]

Many on this forum sure seem to think so...

I wonder who will be first to say they agree with France's new 75% tax rate???

Sure don't agree with that but would like to get the travel
agent concession for all the rich Frenchies that will bolt the
country!

[badger]

Does anyone on this political forum know this name? Russ Feingold.

In a nutshell, Russ is like the Dem's version of Tom Coburn - not beholden to his party, because he was never supposed to get elected in the first place.

Why am I bringing up Russ Feingold in this thread? Because you can blame Russ for giving Ryan a political career.

Around the turn of the millenium, Russ decided that he was going to take a stand: No more bloated campaign budget. I'm gonna minimally spend and not pour tons of money into TV ads, yard signs, etc. The voters will have a clean campaign from me and not a money-based one.

It almost backfired.

We were bombarded with negative ads from a Republican candidate named Mark Neumann. The Republicans poured tons of money (that again, Russ decided on principle he wouldn't do) to try to unseat the Wisconsin incumbent. And they nearly succeeded.

50 to 49. The 1 percent no-name candidates, about 50k votes, was the difference between Neumann and Feingold.

Neumann would have never given up his Congressional seat to run for Senate if Russ didn't put his incumbency in such a contested position on principle.

Who got Neumann's Congressional seat after he tried to unseat Russ Feingold? None other than... Paul Ryan.

[diverdog]

Is Europe the model we should seek?

No but we can go back to the same rates we had under Reagan and Clinton. We exempt about two trillion dollars worth of income from various tax loopholes. Americans can stand to pay more in taxes.

[okie52]

No but we can go back to the same rates we had under Reagan and Clinton. We exempt about two trillion dollars worth of income from various tax loopholes. Americans can stand to pay more in taxes.

Personally I'm fine with us going back to the Clinton tax rates but will it cripple the economy?

[pphilfran]

Personally I'm fine with us going back to the Clinton tax rates but will it cripple the economy?

Okie, it is not enough to do chit...minimal impact on revenue and minimal impact on the economy...

It is Congress sitting on their hands and doing nothing and letting the axe hang over eveyone's head that is the biggest problem...

Get things done so business and individuals know what is coming and get rid of the uncertainly...

[okie52]

Okie, it is not enough to do chit...minimal impact on revenue and minimal impact on the economy...

It is Congress sitting on their hands and doing nothing and letting the axe hang over eveyone's head that is the biggest problem...

Get things done so business and individuals know what is coming and get rid of the uncertainly...

Oh but we can't overlook all of those tax breaks for the rich...we just can overlook all of the tax breaks for everyone else.




(But I agree with you)

[REDREX]

No but we can go back to the same rates we had under Reagan and Clinton. We exempt about two trillion dollars worth of income from various tax loopholes. Americans can stand to pay more in taxes.----Does that include the 50% that pay no Federal income tax ?

[StoopTroup]

Nice job pointing out how dumb the Dem's efforts to recall Walker was....

Dumb? It got Walker off the hook and it might have kept the Republicans from fallout because of Walker but it doesn't really help Walker's political career. All it does is make him a lame duck Gov. and the poster boy for Union killing.

Even though the Dems didn't win it further shows how people with money (OJ Simpson for example) can get away with murder.

All Walker now has to do is live with all the things he needed to win. That then shows the American Public what a psychopath Walker is.

Walker for POTUS? Won't ever happen.

The Dems won something and Wisconsin now has a psychopath for their Governor.

[pphilfran]

It wasn't so much the money that got OJ off the hook...it was the prosecution having him put on those damn gloves...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

You know, as long as we have an income tax and the representatives want to redistribute wealth, we will always have this arguement. I think EVERYONE should pay a tax to fund the government, EVERYONE. Make people work to receive the dole (a la New Deal), cut out deductions and loopholes in the tax code, hell make the business tax 10% (or some number) and eliminate all grants, tax deductions, etc. I bet we have plenty to fund the governement, less tax percentage paid and fewer people bickering...

[SicEmBaylor]

Dumb? It got Walker off the hook and it might have kept the Republicans from fallout because of Walker but it doesn't really help Walker's political career. All it does is make him a lame duck Gov. and the poster boy for Union killing.

Even though the Dems didn't win it further shows how people with money (OJ Simpson for example) can get away with murder.

All Walker now has to do is live with all the things he needed to win. That then shows the American Public what a psychopath Walker is.

Walker for POTUS? Won't ever happen.

The Dems won something and Wisconsin now has a psychopath for their Governor.
Now, if that isn't a classic case of transference then I don't know what is.

How the hell is Walker a psychopath, exactly? How the hell is he a lame-duck, exactly? Let me say this, if the highlight of one's political career is to say that he or she dealt a crippling blow to organized labor then I'd consider that person's career to have been a sterling success.

It's also interesting to hear you talk about the recall election as if Walker retained his seat by the skin of his teeth -- he smashed his competition and won a larger plurality of the vote than he did in his original election. The voters of Wisconsin have twice endorsed his fiscal discipline and good judgement.

[REDREX]

It wasn't so much the money that got OJ off the hook...it was the prosecution having him put on those damn gloves...---It was not money-----It was the idiot Jury and Judge

[SicEmBaylor]

It was the money, jury, judge, baffling decisions by the prosecution team, and the fact that he's a jig.

[REDREX]

It was the money, jury, judge, baffling decisions by the prosecution team, and the fact that he's a jig.---I could have gotten him acquitted in front of that jury

[badger]

It wasn't so much the money that got OJ off the hook...it was the prosecution having him put on those damn gloves...

Ever wear something after a blood stain sets in awhile? The fabic seems to shrivel up and doesn't stretch or fit like it used to.

Therefore, if the glove doesn't fit... it must have blood on it.

[pphilfran]

Ever wear something after a blood stain sets in awhile? The fabic seems to shrivel up and doesn't stretch or fit like it used to.

Therefore, if the glove doesn't fit... it must have blood on it.

I agree...prosecution wasn't thinking...

[rock on sooner]

You know, as long as we have an income tax and the representatives want to redistribute wealth, we will always have this arguement. I think EVERYONE should pay a tax to fund the government, EVERYONE. Make people work to receive the dole (a la New Deal), cut out deductions and loopholes in the tax code, hell make the business tax 10% (or some number) and eliminate all grants, tax deductions, etc. I bet we have plenty to fund the governement, less tax percentage paid and fewer people bickering...

EVERYONE does pay tax, just not everyone pays income tax. Property
tax, sales tax, gas tax, sin tax, car registration tax (fee), hotel tax, and
I'm sure there are more that I can't think of right now. All of those taxes
fund some aspect of government. I agree with your general point, though.
There are so many ways that people/corporations avoid taxes. If those
were somehow closed, then it wouldn't be that much of an issue.

[pphilfran]

EVERYONE does pay tax, just not everyone pays income tax. Property
tax, sales tax, gas tax, sin tax, car registration tax (fee), hotel tax, and
I'm sure there are more that I can't think of right now. All of those taxes
fund some aspect of government. I agree with your general point, though.
There are so many ways that people/corporations avoid taxes. If those
were somehow closed, then it wouldn't be that much of an issue.

And there is the problem...thousands upon thousands of pages of taxes and exemptions and deductions and rebates and credits tend to make the entire system unmanageable...

Then, to correct a problem they add more pages to the thousands...and then H&R block needs a bigger suitcase to carry their profits to the bank...

[diverdog]

You know, as long as we have an income tax and the representatives want to redistribute wealth, we will always have this arguement. I think EVERYONE should pay a tax to fund the government, EVERYONE. Make people work to receive the dole (a la New Deal), cut out deductions and loopholes in the tax code, hell make the business tax 10% (or some number) and eliminate all grants, tax deductions, etc. I bet we have plenty to fund the governement, less tax percentage paid and fewer people bickering...

The only wealth distribution is money flowing to the rich in this country. You cannot prove otherwise.

[REDREX]

The only wealth distribution is money flowing to the rich in this country. You cannot prove otherwise.---They also by FAR the largest share of the income tax

[TitoMorelli]

Now, if that isn't a classic case of transference then I don't know what is.

How the hell is Walker a psychopath, exactly? How the hell is he a lame-duck, exactly? Let me say this, if the highlight of one's political career is to say that he or she dealt a crippling blow to organized labor then I'd consider that person's career to have been a sterling success.

It's also interesting to hear you talk about the recall election as if Walker retained his seat by the skin of his teeth -- he smashed his competition and won a larger plurality of the vote than he did in his original election. The voters of Wisconsin have twice endorsed his fiscal discipline and good judgement.

Hey, don't be so rough on the poor guy. He might just tuck his tail between his legs and run off and swear he's finished with the political forum, like last time....





...on second thought, pour it on.

[pphilfran]

Hey, don't be so rough on the poor guy. He might just tuck his tail between his legs and run off and swear he's finished with the political forum, like last time....





...on second thought, pour it on.

We goin down...abandon ship!

[Bourbon St Sooner]

The only wealth distribution is money flowing to the rich in this country. You cannot prove otherwise.

Like the creators of Solyndra. I agree.

[pphilfran]

Like I said...SS is a reasonably easy fix...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505245_162-57491666/how-big-is-social-securitys-funding-shortfall/



WASHINGTON — Social Security's long-term funding shortfall is big by any measure. How big? That depends on how you look at it.

Over the next 75 years, after Social Security drains its trust funds, the massive program is scheduled to pay out $134 trillion more in benefits than it will collect in tax revenue, according to agency data.

That's an immense number that could use further explanation. Three ways to look at $134 trillion spread out over 75 years:

— $30.5 trillion in 2012 dollars. We all know that $134 trillion won't buy nearly as much in 2086 as it would today. Social Security's number crunchers project that annual inflation will average 2.8 percent in the long term, after a short period of slightly lower inflation. When the annual shortfalls are discounted for inflation to 2012 dollars, they come to $30.5 trillion.

— $8.6 trillion in present value. This is a financial term that Social Security uses to reflect the time value of money. It means that if Social Security had an additional $8.6 trillion on hand today and invested it in a security that paid returns of 2.9 percent above inflation for 75 years, the program would have enough money to cover the shortfall.

The problem, of course, is that Social Security doesn't have an additional $8.6 trillion on hand to invest.

— 2.67 percent of taxable payroll. Social Security uses this this term often. Think of it this way: If payroll taxes were increased by 2.67 percentage points, to a little more than 15 percent, they would generate enough money to cover the 75-year shortfall, with some left over to pay for an extra year of benefits.

Why the extra year? Who wants to start off the next 75 years with a deficit?

[hawaii 5-0]

Now, if that isn't a classic case of transference then I don't know what is.

How the hell is Walker a psychopath, exactly? How the hell is he a lame-duck, exactly? Let me say this, if the highlight of one's political career is to say that he or she dealt a crippling blow to organized labor then I'd consider that person's career to have been a sterling success.

It's also interesting to hear you talk about the recall election as if Walker retained his seat by the skin of his teeth -- he smashed his competition and won a larger plurality of the vote than he did in his original election. The voters of Wisconsin have twice endorsed his fiscal discipline and good judgement.


"Smashed" by 53% to 47%. To me "Smashed" might be something like 70% to 30%.

Tom Barrett was never a very good alternative in the 1st place.

Feingold refused to run.

The 'deciders' in the Recall vote believed Walker should not have been recalled because his actions weren't criminal.

2 more Repubs were recalled in the State Legislature so there is no more majority. There won't be anymore midnight sessions to get Bills pushed through like before.


Walker will finish his term. Move on.

5-0

[hawaii 5-0]

Like the creators of Solyndra. I agree.

I don't know why Solyndra didn't move to Hawaii.

People are investing their money big time in Solar.

I really like my $17 electric bill.

What you payin'?

5-0

[SicEmBaylor]

"Smashed" by 53% to 47%. To me "Smashed" might be something like 70% to 30%.

Tom Barrett was never a very good alternative in the 1st place.

Feingold refused to run.

The 'deciders' in the Recall vote believed Walker should not have been recalled because his actions weren't criminal.

2 more Repubs were recalled in the State Legislature so there is no more majority. There won't be anymore midnight sessions to get Bills pushed through like before.


Walker will finish his term. Move on.

5-0

6 points is huge especially considering the resources committed to defeating him.

[Sooner5030]

I don't know why Solyndra didn't move to Hawaii.

People are investing their money big time in Solar.

I really like my $17 electric bill.

What you payin'?

5-0


even the best grid-tie systems take years to make a return....I'm not saying it is a bad idea depending on your location. But you probably wont see a return til year 9 thru 12 on your solar purchase. Or maybe you've cracked some secret code that the rest of us have not figured out...please share so the rest of us can be as efficient.

[pphilfran]

I don't know why Solyndra didn't move to Hawaii.

People are investing their money big time in Solar.

I really like my $17 electric bill.

What you payin'?

5-0
But you live in a little grass shack that doesn't have electricity... lol

Actually you probably never have to use heat and only a/c (if you even have it) for a few months a year...so you started off at a significantly lower level than us po folk on Okieland...

How much was your bill prior to solar installation and how much did the installation cost?

Be honest...

[rock on sooner]

6 points is huge especially considering the resources committed to defeating him.

Hell's bells, he had seven times the money because of a really
messed up law that says he could raise unlimited and Barrett
was restricted big time. (P.S., I agree about the criminal thing).
Talk about loaded for the incumbent....!?

[diverdog]

---They also by FAR the largest share of the income tax


So what. They also hide trillions from taxes. If they paid 20% on all their income then I would be happy.

[pphilfran]

So what. They also hide trillions from taxes. If they paid 20% on all their income then I would be happy.

How about LTCG?

[REDREX]

So what. They also hide trillions from taxes. If they paid 20% on all their income then I would be happy.----I wish someone would show me how to hide it-----How do you hide K-1 income?

[Sooner5030]

How about LTCG?

I think the most needed reform is to reconcile wage earners to other forms of income. Either flat on both and make them equal or if CGs comprise of a certain % of your total income then the rates over a certain amount will be the same as your marginal income rate.

wont happen though.

[pphilfran]

I think the most needed reform is to reconcile wage earners to other forms of income. Either flat on both and make them equal or if CGs comprise of a certain % of your total income then the rates over a certain amount will be the same as your marginal income rate.

wont happen though.

I would like to see LT stay low to aid investment..ST take as high as you want...but you do make a fair point on the amount made...but then again that just adds another line to an already bloated tax code....

[Sooner5030]

I wonder what a 15% flat rate on all wage earners and all other income would net in rev as % of GDP? You'd still have gasoline/diesel tax and corp tax remain the same but I wonder if it would increase total revenue. Of course my effective rate would increase but would be acceptable if everyone paid the same.

[pphilfran]

You could probably get a guestimate from here...though it is AGI...

Too lazy tonight to do the digging...

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html

[diverdog]

----I wish someone would show me how to hide it-----How do you hide K-1 income?

Should have said earnings. Still it is possible to reduce taxes through losses or depreciation as an example.

Rex I do not think I am talking about you unless you make a million plus a year.

[diverdog]

You could probably get a guestimate from here...though it is AGI...

Too lazy tonight to do the digging...

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html

Phil we had great economic activity when ltcg were higher. We are talking about giving people tax breaks for what is nothing more than speculation. Why should it be treated any different than income from a W2?

[StoopTroup]

Now, if that isn't a classic case of transference then I don't know what is.

How the hell is Walker a psychopath, exactly? How the hell is he a lame-duck, exactly? Let me say this, if the highlight of one's political career is to say that he or she dealt a crippling blow to organized labor then I'd consider that person's career to have been a sterling success.

It's also interesting to hear you talk about the recall election as if Walker retained his seat by the skin of his teeth -- he smashed his competition and won a larger plurality of the vote than he did in his original election. The voters of Wisconsin have twice endorsed his fiscal discipline and good judgement.

I'm telling you right now....his political career is over. You can fertilize 3 Mile Island all you want but nobody is going to eat the tomatoes you grow there.

I know many folks think what he did there is great but not the Teachers, not the Cops and not the Fire men and Women as well as many others. This current attempt to attack working folks during hard times will have long lasting implications.

United We Stand, Divided We Fall has just been attacked by one man. America became a great Nation by telling Kings to stuff it.

You remind me of how happy folks can be when they win a battle and then find out just how long and costly the War is that they got started.

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm telling you right now....his political career is over. You can fertilize 3 Mile Island all you want but nobody is going to eat the tomatoes you grow there.

I know many folks think what he did there is great but not the Teachers, not the Cops and not the Fire men and Women as well as many others. This current attempt to attack working folks during hard times will have long lasting implications.

United We Stand, Divided We Fall has just been attacked by one man. America became a great Nation by telling Kings to stuff it.

You remind me of how happy folks can be when they win a battle and then find out just how long and costly the War is that they got started.

I'm sorry but I don't own a pair of boots high enough to walk through that mound of bull**** you just crapped out.

Requiring public employees to contribute a little to their own healthcare plans and pensions is hardly an attack on "working folks" given the extent of Wisconsin's budget deficit. Stripping them of their right to collective bargain is no attack either.

Public employees are P-U-B-L-I-C employees. They work for the taxpayers and the citizens of the state of Wisconsin. They should have no right to unionize....period. They work at the will of the people...their salaries and benefits are determined by the will of the people via the representatives of the people and not by the employees themselves or union bosses.

Furthermore, if a corporation were as in the red as the state government is then it would be natural to expect downsizing or pay cuts. What we're talking about here isn't even a pay cut...it's simply stripping public employees of their right to collective bargain for pay increases above the rate of inflation. Again...this is hardly an "attack" on "working men and women." These aren't blue collar factory workers -- these are public employees.

It's a damned shame they don't make "pink stuff" to cure your verbal diarrhea.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I'm sorry but I don't own a pair of boots high enough to walk through that mound of bull**** you just crapped out.

Requiring public employees to contribute a little to their own healthcare plans and pensions is hardly an attack on "working folks" given the extent of Wisconsin's budget deficit. Stripping them of their right to collective bargain is no attack either.

Public employees are P-U-B-L-I-C employees. They work for the taxpayers and the citizens of the state of Wisconsin. They should have no right to unionize....period. They work at the will of the people...their salaries and benefits are determined by the will of the people via the representatives of the people and not by the employees themselves or union bosses.

Furthermore, if a corporation were as in the red as the state government is then it would be natural to expect downsizing or pay cuts. What we're talking about here isn't even a pay cut...it's simply stripping public employees of their right to collective bargain for pay increases above the rate of inflation. Again...this is hardly an "attack" on "working men and women." These aren't blue collar factory workers -- these are public employees.

It's a damned shame they don't make "pink stuff" to cure your verbal diarrhea.A Leftist ideologue is a painful and pathetic thing to witness. Their philosophy serves as a substitute for rational thinking, and it bothers them NOT IN THE LEAST!

[hawaii 5-0]

But you live in a little grass shack that doesn't have electricity... lol

Actually you probably never have to use heat and only a/c (if you even have it) for a few months a year...so you started off at a significantly lower level than us po folk on Okieland...

How much was your bill prior to solar installation and how much did the installation cost?

Be honest...


I have no heat or airconditioning. Or insulation. Lots of open windows and ceiling fans.

I've got other panels for solar hot water with an oversized tank.

My current bills have been running around $140-150. The price per kwh is s'posed to be amongst the highest in the nation. The bills are pretty constant year 'round unless I have visitors.

The price outta my pocket was around $15K after tax credits from the state and federal amounting to about 65%. It should increase the value of my home about 70K and be paying for itself in about 6-7 years.

It's crazy not to take advantage of the tax credits while they're available. They won't be there forever. Hawaiian Electric also will eventually stop letting people convert to the new system.

Electric cars and hybrids are also getting more popular because the commute to almost anywhere on Oahu is and hour or less.

5-0

[SicEmBaylor]

A Leftist ideologue is a painful and pathetic thing to witness. Their philosophy serves as a substitute for rational thinking, and it bothers them NOT IN THE LEAST!
Some day I hope to be the one to introduce you to this "rational thinking" you speak of. ;)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Some day I hope to be the one to introduce you to this "rational thinking" you speak of. ;)You do so well sometimes, but only sometimes. IOW, winning is very important.

[TitoMorelli]

I would like to see LT stay low to aid investment..ST take as high as you want...but you do make a fair point on the amount made...but then again that just adds another line to an already bloated tax code....

You don't play the slots, do you?

[okie52]

I'm sorry but I don't own a pair of boots high enough to walk through that mound of bull**** you just crapped out.

Requiring public employees to contribute a little to their own healthcare plans and pensions is hardly an attack on "working folks" given the extent of Wisconsin's budget deficit. Stripping them of their right to collective bargain is no attack either.

Public employees are P-U-B-L-I-C employees. They work for the taxpayers and the citizens of the state of Wisconsin. They should have no right to unionize....period. They work at the will of the people...their salaries and benefits are determined by the will of the people via the representatives of the people and not by the employees themselves or union bosses.

Furthermore, if a corporation were as in the red as the state government is then it would be natural to expect downsizing or pay cuts. What we're talking about here isn't even a pay cut...it's simply stripping public employees of their right to collective bargain for pay increases above the rate of inflation. Again...this is hardly an "attack" on "working men and women." These aren't blue collar factory workers -- these are public employees.

It's a damned shame they don't make "pink stuff" to cure your verbal diarrhea.

It is amazing what seems logical to some people.

[hawaii 5-0]

So firemen, police, EMTs aren't public employees?

They don't work for the taxpayers?

Oh, they're necessary employees. Teachers, roadworkers aren't?

In Ohio the legislature tried the same tactics only they included ALL public employees and the new law was reversed in a state referendum.

Walker was at least smart enough to realize that not all state employees should be stripped. Just the ones he cherry picked.

5-0

[okie52]

So firemen, police, EMTs aren't public employees?

They don't work for the taxpayers?

Oh, they're necessary employees. Teachers, roadworkers aren't?

In Ohio the legislature tried the same tactics only they included ALL public employees and the new law was reversed in a state referendum.

Walker was at least smart enough to realize that not all state employees should be stripped. Just the ones he cherry picked.

5-0

Yes they are public employees and they aren't "owed" the right to unionize or collectively bargain.

[hawaii 5-0]

That was my last response about Walker on this thread.

I'd like to get back to Romney's pick of Paul Ryan.

Do you think Romney picked him or was Ryan chosen for him by others?

Yesterday, when asked the differences between his budget and Ryan's budget Mitt Romney said, "That's something we'll have to look at." He acted like he didn't even know the difference.

5-0

[rock on sooner]

That was my last response about Walker on this thread.

I'd like to get back to Romney's pick of Paul Ryan.

Do you think Romney picked him or was Ryan chosen for him by others?

Yesterday, when asked the differences between his budget and Ryan's budget Mitt Romney said, "That's something we'll have to look at." He acted like he didn't even know the difference.

5-0

Romney said on 60 Minutes that he would be running on his (Romney's)
budget. 5-0, what's really scary, though, is your point about his not
knowing the difference is prolly true. After all, he holds a campaign event
in Florida in a restaurant owned by a convicted felon, a "former" member
of a South American drug cartel, clearly not in touch with common sense.

[rock on sooner]

Two separate polls..Reuters and Gallup..no noticeable bump one
way or the other by picking Ryan. Best I can tell, the only ones
that are excited are the two campaign staffs....:apthy:

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I don't know why Solyndra didn't move to Hawaii.

People are investing their money big time in Solar.

I really like my $17 electric bill.

What you payin'?

5-0

If I lived in a little grass shack, I'd only pay $17 also jefe.

I don't GAS what your electric bill is or how much gov't tax breaks you got for investing in that ****. I care about that two-faced piece of **** who says he wants to take money from rich people only turning around and giving it to his buddies.

[pphilfran]

You don't play the slots, do you?

Blackjack...craps when really wasted...

[pphilfran]

I have no heat or airconditioning. Or insulation. Lots of open windows and ceiling fans.

I've got other panels for solar hot water with an oversized tank.

My current bills have been running around $140-150. The price per kwh is s'posed to be amongst the highest in the nation. The bills are pretty constant year 'round unless I have visitors.

The price outta my pocket was around $15K after tax credits from the state and federal amounting to about 65%. It should increase the value of my home about 70K and be paying for itself in about 6-7 years.

It's crazy not to take advantage of the tax credits while they're available. They won't be there forever. Hawaiian Electric also will eventually stop letting people convert to the new system.

Electric cars and hybrids are also getting more popular because the commute to almost anywhere on Oahu is and hour or less.

5-0

So you use very little electricity vs what an individual would use in Ok...yet it still cost you 15k..upwards of 30k without rebates...

How many folks in Ok can spring for 30 grand, or more, to get the same impact as you, after rebates, for solar?

I don't blame you for taking advantage of the credits..especially in a high cost state like Hawaii...

Don't high utility rates hurt the poor significantly more that the financially well off? Will the poor be able to absorb some of the cost of higher utility rates that is being caused by the war on cheap utilities/gas?

We want to whine and cry about helping the poor with lower taxes...then turn around and take their money by creating higher costs in other areas...gasoline and electrical rates, for example...

[hawaii 5-0]

My using less electricity is my choice. If I'm hot I open the windows and put on a t shirt. If I'm cold I put on more clothes.

I could have central heat and air if I wanted. I could have that 2nd refridgerator in the garage for the beer.

Whether I spend a lot for my electricity is my choice. I've adapted and chose to use less electricity and to let the sun generate most of my power.

It's a shame Hawaii doesn't have a better recycling program. Way to much waste.

I'm just saying there are ways to make ends get a little closer if they can't meet.

5-0

[pphilfran]

My using less electricity is my choice. If I'm hot I open the windows and put on a t shirt. If I'm cold I put on more clothes.

I could have central heat and air if I wanted. I could have that 2nd refridgerator in the garage for the beer.

Whether I spend a lot for my electricity is my choice. I've adapted and chose to use less electricity and to let the sun generate most of my power.

It's a shame Hawaii doesn't have a better recycling program. Way to much waste.

I'm just saying there are ways to make ends get a little closer if they can't meet.

5-0

I said you did well by taking advantage of the rebates...

You failed to answer my questions on the impact on those with less resources then yourself...

Are higher fuel and energy prices due to forced regulation fair to those with little discretionary income?

Another question...

Solar and wind are used solely to reduce CO2...do you think it is probable that by using ng for electrical production we could achieve a greater overall CO2 emission decline since a far larger population base would benefit from that electrical production? A million people using ng produced electricity might help more than a much smaller base using solar...all at a much lower cost with less government support and spending? Even the poor would benefit, not just those with thick wallets...

[hawaii 5-0]

I said you did well by taking advantage of the rebates...

You failed to answer my questions on the impact on those with less resources then yourself...

Are higher fuel and energy prices due to forced regulation fair to those with little discretionary income?

Another question...

Solar and wind are used solely to reduce CO2...do you think it is probable that by using ng for electrical production we could achieve a greater overall CO2 emission decline since a far larger population base would benefit from that electrical production? A million people using ng produced electricity might help more than a much smaller base using solar...all at a much lower cost with less government support and spending? Even the poor would benefit, not just those with thick wallets...


Phil, high prices for fuel aren't easy on the Little Guy, but if they aren't regulated by someone who's to keep the Energy Folks from outpricing the costs of fuel to the Little Guy where he can't afford it at all? Are you trying to get me to say the rich should pay more for energy than the poor? That sounds pretty Socialistic. I'm not gonna go there.

As for Natural Gas...........I used to think it was clean but now I'm not so sure of the techniques employed to get it. I'm not sold that fracking is harmless.

Some guy in Korea (I think) is now spouting that he's got a hydrogen car that runs on water. We'll see.


I can't solve the World's problems, but I can have a little say in my little corner.

I love my composter.

5-0

[pphilfran]

The regulation on fuel is not lowering the cost of fuel...to think otherwise is foolish...

[pphilfran]

I was not trying to get you to say the rich should pay more for fuel or electricity...if it came out that way I apologize...

[pphilfran]

Hell, current regulation is just the opposite...it is getting the poor to pay more than the rich...which would be laughable if it wasn't true....

[pphilfran]

The poor can't take advantage of the energy saving rebates...

The poor can't afford additional insulation

The poor can't afford a new, more efficient vehicle...

The poor are taking it in the shorts due to our energy policy...

[okie52]

Phil, high prices for fuel aren't easy on the Little Guy, but if they aren't regulated by someone who's to keep the Energy Folks from outpricing the costs of fuel to the Little Guy where he can't afford it at all? Are you trying to get me to say the rich should pay more for energy than the poor? That sounds pretty Socialistic. I'm not gonna go there.

As for Natural Gas...........I used to think it was clean but now I'm not so sure of the techniques employed to get it. I'm not sold that fracking is harmless.

Some guy in Korea (I think) is now spouting that he's got a hydrogen car that runs on water. We'll see.


I can't solve the World's problems, but I can have a little say in my little corner.

I love my composter.

5-0

Don't worry 5-0...fracking is still clean and even the EPA can't make a case against it.

On a side note...does Hawaii use much geothermal? It seems like it would have abundant opportunities for energy use there.

[Skysooner]

Phil, high prices for fuel aren't easy on the Little Guy, but if they aren't regulated by someone who's to keep the Energy Folks from outpricing the costs of fuel to the Little Guy where he can't afford it at all? Are you trying to get me to say the rich should pay more for energy than the poor? That sounds pretty Socialistic. I'm not gonna go there.

As for Natural Gas...........I used to think it was clean but now I'm not so sure of the techniques employed to get it. I'm not sold that fracking is harmless.

Some guy in Korea (I think) is now spouting that he's got a hydrogen car that runs on water. We'll see.


I can't solve the World's problems, but I can have a little say in my little corner.

I love my composter.

5-0

There is virtually nothing we do in this world that is harmless, but with proper management, fracking has been perfectly safe since the 1950s. There is so much misinformation on this from the environmentalists. I have seen nothing from them that is even close to the truth about fracking. This is from a 20 year veteran in this industry with a geomechanics background. I work around it all the time and know what I see anyway. If we were doing the harm that they allude too, I likely wouldn't be in this industry anymore.

[pphilfran]

http://www.eia.gov/state/state-energy-profiles.cfm?sid=HI

Hawaii Quick Facts

With its mild tropical climate, Hawaii had the third lowest per capita energy use in the Nation in 2010; the transportation sector led Hawaiian energy demand in 2010, due in large part to heavy commercial and military aviation fuel use.

In 2010, Hawaii imported 94 percent of its energy and had the highest electricity prices in the Nation.

Hawaii has the world's largest commercial electricity generator fueled exclusively with biofuels; the State's energy plan aims for an agricultural biofuels industry that, by 2025, can provide 350 million gallons of biofuels.

Hawaii is one of eight States with installed geothermal capacity; in 2011, 25 percent of its renewable net electricity generation came from geothermal energy.

Solar photovoltaic (PV) capacity increased 150 percent in Hawaii in 2011, making it the 11th biggest State for PV capacity.

Last updated in July 2012.

[pphilfran]

I would image most of their biofuel comes from sugarcane...

[okie52]

http://www.eia.gov/state/state-energy-profiles.cfm?sid=HI

Hawaii Quick Facts

With its mild tropical climate, Hawaii had the third lowest per capita energy use in the Nation in 2010; the transportation sector led Hawaiian energy demand in 2010, due in large part to heavy commercial and military aviation fuel use.

In 2010, Hawaii imported 94 percent of its energy and had the highest electricity prices in the Nation.

Hawaii has the world's largest commercial electricity generator fueled exclusively with biofuels; the State's energy plan aims for an agricultural biofuels industry that, by 2025, can provide 350 million gallons of biofuels.

Hawaii is one of eight States with installed geothermal capacity; in 2011, 25 percent of its renewable net electricity generation came from geothermal energy.

Solar photovoltaic (PV) capacity increased 150 percent in Hawaii in 2011, making it the 11th biggest State for PV capacity.

Last updated in July 2012.

I don't know why geothermal couldn't supply most of its electrical needs. Electric cars would make sense there where range wouldn't normally be an issue.

Moderate climate with geothermal and solar (probably wind, too) would seem like they could be energy independent.

[okie52]

I would image most of their biofuel comes from sugarcane...

Would seem likely but wasn't the government putting a big cellulosic plant there?

[okie52]

There is virtually nothing we do in this world that is harmless, but with proper management, fracking has been perfectly safe since the 1950s. There is so much misinformation on this from the environmentalists. I have seen nothing from them that is even close to the truth about fracking. This is from a 20 year veteran in this industry with a geomechanics background. I work around it all the time and know what I see anyway. If we were doing the harm that they allude too, I likely wouldn't be in this industry anymore.

I like firewater. In fact I pay quite a bit for it.

[pphilfran]

Would seem likely but wasn't the government putting a big cellulosic plant there?

i don't know....

[pphilfran]

I don't know why geothermal couldn't supply most of its electrical needs. Electric cars would make sense there where range wouldn't normally be an issue.

Moderate climate with geothermal and solar (probably wind, too) would seem like they could be energy independent.

I agree...

[hawaii 5-0]

Would seem likely but wasn't the government putting a big cellulosic plant there?

They put it next to the file cabinet where Obama's birth certificate fell behind.

5-0

[hawaii 5-0]

I don't know why geothermal couldn't supply most of its electrical needs. Electric cars would make sense there where range wouldn't normally be an issue.

Moderate climate with geothermal and solar (probably wind, too) would seem like they could be energy independent.


Things move very slowly here.

We still don't have gambling or a lottery.

5-0

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Romney said on 60 Minutes that he would be running on his (Romney's)
budget. 5-0, what's really scary, though, is your point about his not
knowing the difference is prolly true. After all, he holds a campaign event
in Florida in a restaurant owned by a convicted felon, a "former" member
of a South American drug cartel, clearly not in touch with common sense.Oooo that bad man Romney. He's such a viscious scallywag, we know you're trying with all you've got to give him the benefit of the doubt, but that wascal is just too downright MEAN to hold onto the support you want deep-down to give him. You gave it your all, though, but it just didn't happen...

[hawaii 5-0]

Oooo that bad man Romney. He's such a viscious scallywag, we know you're trying with all you've got to give him the benefit of the doubt, but that wascal is just too downright MEAN to hold onto the support you want deep-down to give him. You gave it your all, though, but it just didn't happen...


I see.

You're trying to tell us Romney wasn't in Florida?

Musta been some Hollywood stage mock-up that had all the media fooled.

I saw it too. I just didn't know Romney was still cavorting with criminals.

I guess if you tell lies enough you'll believe them.

5-0

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I see.

You're trying to tell us Romney wasn't in Florida?

Musta been some Hollywood stage mock-up that had all the media fooled.

I saw it too. I just didn't know Romney was still cavorting with criminals.

I guess if you tell lies enough you'll believe them.

5-0You wanted, with all your heart, for him to do well, and run an honest, fairplayed campaign, but he just won't do it. Why, 'cause he's just BAD. bad to the bone, that guy!

[rock on sooner]

I wonder how loud it would get on here if Obama had held an
event in a restaurant owned by a convicted drug felon?

[olevetonahill]

I wonder how loud it would get on here if Obama had held an
event in a restaurant owned by a convicted drug felon?

How about a Link?

Theres nothing a quick search shows in the news deal on Yahoo and here in this thread is the only place Ive heard of it.

[LiveLaughLove]

I wonder how loud it would get on here if Obama had held an
event in a restaurant owned by a convicted drug felon?

Is that the guy Obama used to buy his cocaine from?

You voted for an admitted felon. I don't like that Romney went to this guys place, but I fail to see how its worse than Obama being a causation to people like this guy existing in the first place.

Oh I know why its worse, because its Romney.

[rock on sooner]

How about a Link?

Theres nothing a quick search shows in the news deal on Yahoo and here in this thread is the only place Ive heard of it.

Don't have a link, Vet. Associated Press article in yesterday's
Des Moines Register. Guy named Reinaldo Bermudez was caught
in an FBI/US Customs sting in '97, pled guilty to one count of conspiracy
to distribute and spent 3 years in the federal pokey. Three different
seizures netted over 5500 pounds of coke...some heavy duty powder.
12 people were accused in a Columbian drug smuggling operation.
This Bermudez owns El Palacios de los Jugos in Miami.

The article ended with "a call to the restaurant wasn't answered" And,
"The Romney campaign didn't immediately respond to a request for
comment."

[rock on sooner]

The restaurant's name translates "The Palace(Mansion) of Juice"
Betcha the juice washes some green...

Could be the Romney group is tryin' to downplay this one...

[olevetonahill]

Don't have a link, Vet. Associated Press article in yesterday's
Des Moines Register. Guy named Reinaldo Bermudez was caught
in an FBI/US Customs sting in '97, pled guilty to one count of conspiracy
to distribute and spent 3 years in the federal pokey. Three different
seizures netted over 5500 pounds of coke...some heavy duty powder.
12 people were accused in a Columbian drug smuggling operation.
This Bermudez owns El Palacios de los Jugos in Miami.

The article ended with "a call to the restaurant wasn't answered" And,
"The Romney campaign didn't immediately respond to a request for
comment."

Using the doods name I found this so far

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48659518#.UCumeaNLmnM

[rock on sooner]

Is that the guy Obama used to buy his cocaine from?

You voted for an admitted felon. I don't like that Romney went to this guys place, but I fail to see how its worse than Obama being a causation to people like this guy existing in the first place.

Oh I know why its worse, because its Romney.

Wow, LLL, now Obama is the cause of the drug problem?

[rock on sooner]

Using the doods name I found this so far

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48659518#.UCumeaNLmnM

That's the article that's in the Register.

[olevetonahill]

The restaurant's name translates "The Palace(Mansion) of Juice"
Betcha the juice washes some green...

Could be the Romney group is tryin' to downplay this one...

Or theres really not much to the deal

[rock on sooner]

Or theres really not much to the deal

Could be, LLL thinks Obama caused the drug problems the country has...
so major deflection time...

[olevetonahill]

Could be, LLL thinks Obama caused the drug problems the country has...
so major deflection time...
Thats funny.
But if ya think about it anyone who has ever used coke has been part of the cause.

[LiveLaughLove]

Thats funny.
But if ya think about it anyone who has ever used coke has been part of the cause.

Bingo. Come on rock, you know I don't think that.



My point is you are slamming on Romney while ignoring Obama.

a childhood friends brother was killed over marijuana. He was undercover back in the late sixties, early seventies. I do blame marijuana smokers for his death.

Without the demand, no supply. But a topic for a different thread.

[rock on sooner]

Bingo. Come on rock, you know I don't think that.



My point is you are slamming on Romney while ignoring Obama.

a childhood friends brother was killed over marijuana. He was undercover back in the late sixties, early seventies. I do blame marijuana smokers for his death.

Without the demand, no supply. But a topic for a different thread.

Agreed, but, LLL, go back and read what you said...very easy leap to
say you blame Obama, and, Vet's got a point, too. Best one, tho, is what
you said, "Without the demand...."

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Could be, LLL thinks Obama caused the drug problems the country has...
so major deflection time...You've picked up on how Obeary wins elections. He destroys the opponent with accusations of misdeeds, whether true or not, and gets the help of the MSM, and voila, the r influences the candidate to quit the race, and Obeary is left to win it. You're a proud member of the team!

[rock on sooner]

You've picked up on how Obeary wins elections. He destroys the opponent with accusations of misdeeds, whether true or not, and gets the help of the MSM, and voila, the r influences the candidate to quit the race, and Obeary is left to win it. You're a proud member of the team!

So, RLIMC, you're saying that Obama destroys opponents with statements,
true or not, to win elections. Ask your boy Romney about that. Ask Gingrich,
Pawlenty, Santorum, Bachmann, et al about scorched earth politics. They can
testify first hand how "nice" Romney plays. And, not sure about the team of
which you speak, so that one can ride...

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

So, RLIMC, you're saying that Obama destroys opponents with statements,
true or not, to win elections. Ask your boy Romney about that. Ask Gingrich,
Pawlenty, Santorum, Bachmann, et al about scorched earth politics. They can
testify first hand how "nice" Romney plays. And, not sure about the team of
which you speak, so that one can ride...Romney didn't have to worry about the MSM to defend the other r's, so he pulled off the gloves. Obear knows the MSM has his back, so He can do or say anything, and not only get away with it, but likely get their(and your) help.

[rock on sooner]

Romney didn't have to worry about the MSM to defend the other r's, so he pulled off the gloves. Obear knows the MSM has his back, so He can do or say anything, and not only get away with it, but likely get their(and your) help.

Ya keep talking about the MSM. How does that compare to the righties?
Let's see...Fox, WSJ, Limbaugh's 300 or 400 radio stations, Hannity's (don't
know how many), Beck's, Coulter, Ingraham (sp?), Huckabee, Gingrich plus
...now MSM...MSNBC, the three networks (1 1/2 hours a day for all news)
Air America (Is it still on?) Help me here, I can't come up with any more
MSM (seriously)...oh, NPR, according to you guys, 'cept I've heard more
Romney/Ryan stuff than anything else..(I listen about 5 1/2 hours a week
to NPR). Keep in mind, I'm here in IA with a GOP guv, Rep. King, Sen.
(Grumpy) Grassley.

I have a hard time buying your MSM arguments when you've got those kind
of folks on the right, with the amount of media exposure tht comes with them.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

There ya have it, folks. No need to clarify.

[rock on sooner]

There ya have it, folks. No need to clarify.

Sorry, but, yer point?

[TitoMorelli]

Ya keep talking about the MSM. How does that compare to the righties?
Let's see...Fox, WSJ, Limbaugh's 300 or 400 radio stations, Hannity's (don't
know how many), Beck's, Coulter, Ingraham (sp?), Huckabee, Gingrich plus
...now MSM...MSNBC, the three networks (1 1/2 hours a day for all news)
Air America (Is it still on?) Help me here, I can't come up with any more
MSM (seriously)...oh, NPR, according to you guys, 'cept I've heard more
Romney/Ryan stuff than anything else..(I listen about 5 1/2 hours a week
to NPR). Keep in mind, I'm here in IA with a GOP guv, Rep. King, Sen.
(Grumpy) Grassley.

I have a hard time buying your MSM arguments when you've got those kind
of folks on the right, with the amount of media exposure tht comes with them.

Except, rock, that 99% of those tuning in to watch or listen to conservative sources have already made up their mind politically, and expect said sources to lean to the right. ABC, CBS, and NBC's news divisions will argue till their dying breaths (wishful thinking) that they are unbiased despite strong evidence to the contrary, and too many potential voters are influenced without realizing that those who make up said organizations have their own leanings and agenda.

[8timechamps]

Let's look at the benefit of moving some of the SS revenue into the private market...

1. Congress can't spend it...it is now out of their hands
2. We don't have to pay interest on the notes...a public company would pay the interest...lowering our long term liability
3. More money moving into the open bond market would lower bond yields...if you have a lot more money chasing your bonds you don't need to price them as high to sell them...so a city or state wishing to issue a bond to build schools or other needed items would now have to pay a lower interest rate...less cost to the city/state...less cost to the taxpayer....a fiscal stimulus each and every year...

I pretty much stopped reading this thread after this post, but I am amazed by the folks that resist this type of change. Are they afraid of "the markets"? I've tried to find the answer, but the folks that are so against this type of plan can't tell me why, other than "it's too risky".

Romney got my vote as soon as Ryan was announced. Any way you slice it, there are going to be changes, I'd just rather we do it not than kick the can another 20 years when we are in major trouble.

[pphilfran]

I pretty much stopped reading this thread after this post, but I am amazed by the folks that resist this type of change. Are they afraid of "the markets"? I've tried to find the answer, but the folks that are so against this type of plan can't tell me why, other than "it's too risky".

Romney got my vote as soon as Ryan was announced. Any way you slice it, there are going to be changes, I'd just rather we do it not than kick the can another 20 years when we are in major trouble.

Thanks for the props...