Offensive Line for 2012 - John Hoover Article

[possumfat]

Is the sky falling or will it not really be this bad?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/OU/article.aspx?subjectid=92&articleid=20120807_29_B1_FRHASA415954

[olevetonahill]

I think its more a Puff pastry

[KantoSooner]

The O-line could still surprise on the upside, but it must be counted as a question mark going forward.

[Fraggle145]

**** Hoover. He's an OSU shill just like the guy before him. Tulsa World sports section blows goats (or ****s sheep however you want to say it).

[olevetonahill]

**** Hoover. He's an OSU shill just like the guy before him. Tulsa World sports section blows goats (or ****s sheep however you want to say it).
hoover is just as his name imply's He SUCCs

[badger]

He was complimentary of OU's staff and said that the injuries were basically really bad luck, not a reflection on OU players or coaches.

Or are you all upset that he said we're not championship-bound anymore. :D

[ouwasp]

Well, it's not Hoover's job to be a cheerleader, but my goodness, the guy pretty much came off as gloom and doom.

I refuse to believe the Sooner OL will be as bad as they were in 2009. On the other hand, I'm still waiting for them to be as good as portrayed in the past several preseasons. Looks like I'll continue in limbo.

[Pricetag]

I can understand him saying that the NC just got brutally tougher. But OU has won Big 12 championships in so many different ways the past 12 years that it's ridiculous to say that we can't win the conference this year, question marks be damned.

[badger]

I can understand him saying that the NC just got brutally tougher. But OU has won Big 12 championships in so many different ways the past 12 years that it's ridiculous to say that we can't win the conference this year, question marks be damned.

As long as you brought it up, how DID we win all of those Big 12 championships? I'll start with the easy one:

2000: By having the best team in the nation.

[ouwasp]

As long as you brought it up, how DID we win all of those Big 12 championships? I'll start with the easy one:

2000: By having the best team in the nation.

... that also happened to be relatively injury-free... <sigh>...

[badger]

OK, I'll make an attempt at the rest:
2002: Because we beat Texas
2004: Because we were the best team on every night except one
2006: Because Texas sucks
2007: Because Mizzou could beat everyone except us
2008: Because BCS
2010: Because OU beating Nebraska in the final Big 12 title game was just meant to be

[5noubus]

I guess they think we will be the only team to lose players this season?
I think it's better to make adjustments now this early in the season

[OU_Sooners75]

Come on guys. There is a big question mark when it comes to the ou ol?

When evans tore his acl our ol depth got rocked. Not only did we lose a proven starter, but arguably our best olman.

There is talent at the ol unit, but to think everything is hay okay, then you're wearing too dark of shades.

A few things. Ou has suffered an abnormal amount of injuries the last 5+ years. Why?

Is it overtraining? Is it just bad luck? For how long it has been happening then one should start to rule out bad luck and start looking at the overtraining/overworked aspect.

Not saying its schmitty, but something is happening and with how much the program is investing into the players, they should be a little more careful with them.

[OU_Sooners75]

I guess they think we will be the only team to lose players this season?
I think it's better to make adjustments now this early in the season

Yes all teams suffer injuries. But not at the rate as ou has the last 5+ seasons.


When I get on a computer I will find the info that shows ou is one of the most injured programs the last 5+ years.

You don't see the frequency of injuries at bama or lsu or florida or even osu. They do suffer injuries but not once in the past 5 years have they suffered as many.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

You don't see the frequency of injuries at bama or lsu or florida or even osu. They do suffer injuries but not once in the past 5 years have they suffered as many.

You see more arrests at those schools.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

As long as you brought it up, how DID we win all of those Big 12 championships? I'll start with the easy one:

2000: By having the best team in the nation.

... that also happened to be relatively injury-free... <sigh>...


Not one starter out due to injury that entire year. +19 in turnovers that year as I recall. That helps too.

[goingoneight]

No matter how much training you do, ACLs will still tear and bones will still break when you land the wrong way. End of story. Let's not even go there again, plzkthx. If Landry throws out his arm, our guys start projectile vomiting every game, or players have to sit out a game for a cramp, then we can question our training methods or our toughness.

[8timechamps]

Hoover isn't entirely off base, but to predict that the loss of two linemen take us from conference title contender to an "also ran" is kind of ridiculous.

First, about the only place we had strong depth going into this summer was on the offensive line. Now, there is no depth. However, that isn't the same has having no talent. Ikard has already proven he can play center. Irwin was going to push for a starting role anyway, as was Nila. If I had to rate our offensive line before the injuries, I would have given it an "A-". After the injuries, I'd give it a "B+".

As I've said in other threads, we are still good on the line, as long as we don't suffer another season ending injury.

As always though, I think Hoover always writes OU stories with an aggie lean. So, take it for what it's worth.

[cleller]

The last time sudden serious injuries hit the O-line it turned out badly. No denying this is a big hit. Habern's loss was bad and unexpected, this goes further.

[OU_Sooners75]

No matter how much training you do, ACLs will still tear and bones will still break when you land the wrong way. End of story. Let's not even go there again, plzkthx. If Landry throws out his arm, our guys start projectile vomiting every game, or players have to sit out a game for a cramp, then we can question our training methods or our toughness.

you're right no amount of training can save from those acl tears or bone breaks.

But overtraining or overworking leads to fatigue. And when your body is fatigued then your brain and body starts to become lethargic. And you start to half *** things. And when your start to half *** things your open yourself up to injury.

This is why in the work place there are breaks. There are a certain amount of hours youj can work on most jobs and such.

Overworking and overtraining can make you relaxe on being alert and protective.

[OU_Sooners75]

Btw...didn't nila have surgery less than a month ago? Thought I read somewhere that he either had surgery or needs to have surgery.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

Btw...didn't nila have surgery less than a month ago? Thought I read somewhere that he either had surgery or needs to have surgery.

Had heart surgery just a week ago. It was a corrective procedure and he looked fit as a fiddle at the media day. Supposedly he should be back practicing in about a week from now.

[OU_Sooners75]

Ok...so he may not get the nod this year. But then again who knows?

I'm not worried about our ol talent, just the depth with the loss of evans and habern.

Still boggles my mind that ou hasn't recruited heavy on the ol and dl!

[soonerboy_odanorth]

Still boggles my mind that ou hasn't recruited heavy on the ol and dl!

That's just not "akrut". Dead wrong.

We have recruited OL hard. We have just had the worst run of attrition for whatever reason I can ever remember hitting one unit. And this has been since 2009. Maybe that's what needs to change... not the how many, but the who.

These would be the names on the roster recruited to be OL (including Ikard.. they always had him targeted to move interior with his frame) had we had no attrition:

Woods
Kasitati
Darlington
Ikard
Irwin
Dismuke
Thompson
Farniok
McGee
Shead
Evans
Marrs
Williams
Habern
Latu

That's 15 guys. Three deep, tackle to tackle. And that doesn't include the lucky find that Lane Johnson just grew to be. With a walk-on in Bob Hollis that they clearly believe in... and why wouldn't they with his 6-4, 330 lb body... that is 17 guys on the roster. That should've been, would've been, plenty of a talent pool and depth to choose from. But we are down not one or two, but FIVE guys from that list. That would kill the depth of any team in FBS.

And sorry.. you are wrong on DL, too. We have 8 defensive tackles for 2 spots. That's 4 deep. We're a little thinner at DE... 6 guys recruited as DE for 2 spots. So 3 deep. Of course that doesn't include Grissom or Hughes who have transitioned to TE and OL respectively. That would've made it 8 there as well. (Add back in Favors and it is 7 for 2 spots.)

Heck, the thinnest spot on the field may be LB where we have 11 guys for 3 spots, but where it seems like we have had a lot more misses, so not as much high quality depth. Or maybe TE where we really only have 3 guys right now. (Though really bad luck there too... Laith Harlow, injury to Gresham, etc.)

I think Stoops and staff are well in control of the numbers they have recruited at each position. Maybe in a year or two football kharma will decide we've suffered enough and give us a two or three year run of excellent health.

[goingoneight]

It looks as though we still have ten guys on the OL the coaches have mentioned they are confident in. Ten should be enough, but OU hasn't really been lucky regarding injuries. I would not be shocked at all to see Aaron Ripkowski get in some work with the OL. He's as big as Lane Johnson was when he first made the transition and slightly under what Gabe Ikard is at and we already know he's a wrecking ball-kind of blocker. He's not a tackle, but I can definitely see him being a pulling guard. Granted, that's a worst case scenario... I think Stoops anticipated Habern being gone all along and wasn't counting on JMM to just step in and start right away anyhow.

[MountainOkie]

Right now it's okay, but it certainly doesn't make you comfortable. We lose one more though...

There's a BIG difference in teams returning two starters on the OL and teams returning only one. In 2009, for example, I believe we returned only one starter on the OL.

Pitt had a great running team a few years back and went into the next year (2010) with a stud returning at RB, but returned only one OL. Still they were picked to win the Big East. The result? Their running game suffered mightily, they struggled to a 7-5 record and Wannstedt resigned.

[OU_Sooners75]

Sooner odanorth...You are looking at pure numbers not actual depth. Some players on the ol are walkons.Talent wise we be good...like I said.But how many of the ol are starter ready? Less than half of those that you mentioned. We are 2 more injuries on the online from having a patchwork ol like 2009. We have 14 total. Two are walk ons. 2 are out for season. 1 just had heart surgery. That is a lack of depth. We have gone from 14 healthy to 9 healthy. Not to mention the players that have never taken a snap in college...which is 4. That leaves us with 5 experienced ol.Mcgee gone. Latu never qualified and is at arky state.The oline is one spot you need to have at least 12 healthy players. Ou doesn't have that.The dl....three or four experienced players. Two seniors....ou has two offers (that I'm aware of) out to a dt so far for the 2013 signing class. Ou has a few out for oline.Fact is the depth is not there. Yet we have 11 wrs and 10 dbs. Our real lack is linebackers I agree. But the real attrition for ou the past few years has been the oline...and we haven't had one week of practice and we have already lost 3 of them and a fourth possible coming into the hitting practices of the 2012 season.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

Sooner odanorth...You are looking at pure numbers not actual depth.

Your original premise was that we are not recruting enough O or D linemen. Where do you think "actual depth" comes from? It starts with the "pure numbers" (with a healthy dose of talent evaluation) you recruit and then are able to develop. And you are never going to bat 1.000 on all the guys you recruit... at any position.


Some players on the ol are walkons.

That statement is categorically false. Of the 15 guys I listed every single one was recruited as an o-lineman. Lane Johnson was a QB recruited to play TE, but then kept growing and made the natural progression to OL. Bob Hollis is the ONLY walk-on. Lane and Bob bring the number to 17. Did we miss on the talent eval for some of the guys on the 15? Maybe. Health issues? Yes, but unavoidable. Knuckleheads... How do we fix that, when as Ron White says, "you can't fix stupid."


Talent wise we be good...like I said.But how many of the ol are starter ready? Less than half of those that you mentioned. We are 2 more injuries on the online from having a patchwork ol like 2009. We have 14 total. Two are walk ons. 2 are out for season. 1 just had heart surgery. That is a lack of depth. We have gone from 14 healthy to 9 healthy. Not to mention the players that have never taken a snap in college...which is 4. That leaves us with 5 experienced ol.Mcgee gone. Latu never qualified and is at arky state.The oline is one spot you need to have at least 12 healthy players. Ou doesn't have that. The dl....three or four experienced players. Two seniors....ou has two offers (that I'm aware of) out to a dt so far for the 2013 signing class. Ou has a few out for oline.Fact is the depth is not there. Yet we have 11 wrs and 10 dbs. Our real lack is linebackers I agree. But the real attrition for ou the past few years has been the oline...and we haven't had one week of practice and we have already lost 3 of them and a fourth possible coming into the hitting practices of the 2012 season.

My god man, your logic is truly dizzying, and not in a good way. I challenge you to find us going more than 2-deep with guys that are "starter ready" at any position on the field. In fact you will find we are no more than 1-deep in several positions on the field. Start with the DBs and tell me how that works out. You can't say we haven't focused on O or D line without also saying, using the same criteria, that we haven't focused on any position.

You mention all these guys gone... well yeah, that is part of the unlucky run of attrition we have had. But you cannot state accurately that the staff has not focused on those positions in recruiting. The facts get in the way of your good (or rather poor) argument.

They recruited those guys to be here. They planned on them being here. And they have worked hard to develop them once they have been here. But we lost them mere days before or just into the start of Fall camp. What the hell are they supposed to do? Call Texas and see if they have a spare? Are you saying the staff isn't doing enough right now to bring more O-linemen on campus... right at this moment?

If you have a problem with the numbers, ultimately your argument cannot be how this staff recruited. They have very balanced numbers across the board. And I think they have made every effort to recruit future "quality starting" depth. Yes, they may have missed on some guys. Every staff does. And they have a rash of injuries at one position. Happens to a lot of teams. That has nothing to do with the numbers they are recruiting.

I'm sorry, but your complaint really needs to be at the NCAA limiting us to 85 scholies, and 105 roster spots.

[Scott D]

OL attirition has been an issue for a decade....time to move on. :)

[soonerboy_odanorth]

"Flava o' the day" attirition has been an issue for a decade....time to move on. :)

FIFY.

Remember when Lance Mitchell was lost and Pasha Jackson got nicked up, or later when Ryan Reynolds was lost? Remember how we weren't recruiting enough to the LB position then?

Or remember when we lost Demarco Murray before the NC game and only had Chris Brown to rely on for running back how we weren't recruiting enough to the RB position then?

For Pete's sake. ***t happens.

I agree. Moving on.

[OU_Sooners75]

Odanorth...


I love the insluts and stuff like the next person.

But for anyone to say there is not a problem with the ol depth is kidding themselves or just flat out stupid.

Fact, OU has 9 legitimate ol that can make a start this year. That is a depth issue.
Fact, OU coaches are thinking about moving ripkowski, a fb, to guard to help alleviate some depth issues.
Fact, OUs evaluation and recruting of ol has been subpar.
Fact, OUs elvaluation and recruitment of dl has been subpar.



I know its fun to be in denial, but those are the facts.

Injuries and players quiting are attrition. OUs lack of thorough evaluations of a players situation is the coaching issue.


Since the departure of Mangino OU has had a run of bad luck on the OL. And it has been enhanced with James Patton running the,nth ago we all thought the oline was a strong point. But after 2 injuries, a unqualified recruit, and a momma boy later we have a real issue with the ol unit.

Why? If ou recruited ol like they do dbs and wrs the attrition wouldn't be such a major impact.

Btw, rivials says hollis and another ol are walk ons this year.

Oh and your last comment on this thread is showing a lot of reaching and stupidity.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

I love the insluts and stuff like the next person.

You must be used to it if this is how you argue. You are arguing in circles. Allow me to demonstrate:


But for anyone to say there is not a problem with the ol depth is kidding themselves or just flat out stupid.

Right now, yes, depth is an issue. It wasn't before we lost FIVE freaking guys! Good thing that because we had good DEPTH previously, we are still able to field a quality starting line. If we HADN'T had depth previously, we wouldn't be able to. To have had the good depth, we must have recruited well to build that depth.


Fact, OU has 9 legitimate ol that can make a start this year. That is a depth issue.

This may or may not be fact. Depends on how young guys develop as the season wears on. Right now, yes, we have a depth issue. But it is a fluid situation. AND, before the attrition, again, we DID NOT have a depth issue.


Fact, OU coaches are thinking about moving ripkowski, a fb, to guard to help alleviate some depth issues.

Right. Because right NOW we have a depth issue. One week ago (or less) we did not. Thank god we had DEPTH to deal with the attrition. Now we have to build, even if artificially, some depth back. Seems to me to be good coaching if we can accomplish that. And yes... I acknowledge the "if" in that statement.


Fact, OUs evaluation and recruting of ol has been subpar.

Here is where you are no longer making an actual argument or debate. What you are stating is OPINION. Not FACT. To state otherwise is a lie. Yes, if you stand on that, I am calling you a liar. My OPINION, is that Trent Williams, Davin Joseph, Jamaal Brown, Tommie Harris, Gerald McCoy, Jon Cooper, Adrian Taylor, Frank Alexander, Dan Cody, probably another (estimating) 6-10 guys that have either made it in the NFL or been to the NFL long enough to have a cup of coffee say your opinion isn't very strongly supported.


Fact, OUs elvaluation and recruitment of dl has been subpar.

Same as above. OPINION, NOT FACT, and I counter with the same rather long list of NFL names. BTW, Mangino hasn't been with us since 2002. TEN YEARS! Most of the guys I listed are post-Mangino.


I know its fun to be in denial, but those are the facts.

You're right, I deny that half of what you state is fact. Because it is opinion, not fact. And it will be fun to see you stew in your own juices about that... FACT. :rolleyes:


Injuries and players quiting are attrition. OUs lack of thorough evaluations of a players situation is the coaching issue.

Your OPINION.



Since the departure of Mangino OU has had a run of bad luck on the OL. And it has been enhanced with James Patton running the,nth ago we all thought the oline was a strong point. But after 2 injuries, a unqualified recruit, and a momma boy later we have a real issue with the ol unit.

A run of bad luck since 2002? Really? 2003. 2004. 2007. 2008. 2010. Hmm, I don't recall much in the way of bad luck for those OL units that were ranked pretty highly those years and had a number of guys sent to the NFL off of those units.


Why? If ou recruited ol like they do dbs and wrs the attrition wouldn't be such a major impact.

I disagree. In my OPINION, if we lose Hurst, Colvin, Stills, and Metoyer to injury for the season we are immediately in the hurt locker at both of those positions. Just answer the question: Who qualifies as the "quality starter ready" depth for those positions if those 4 guys are not available?


Btw, rivials says hollis and another ol are walk ons this year..

I acknowledged Hollis as a walk on. I did not include him in the initial list of 15 guys I listed. You're going to have to step up and tell me who the other guy is. Because looking at OU's official roster, there isn't anybody other than Hollis who isn't a scholarship guy. Holler if you need the link to the roster on soonersports.com. Maybe rivals needs to do some.... FACT... checking. And maybe you shouldn't regard rivals as the bible on this. BTW, I just reviewed Rivals OU roster... Bob Hollis is the only non-scholie o-lineman listed. Just for your edification, Mitch Tate from Bartlesville is the only d-lineman walk-on listed.

When is the last time you checked your... FACTS?


Oh and your last comment on this thread is showing a lot of reaching and stupidity.

It was my OPINION. Opinions can be stupid. You're proving that.... in my stupid OPINION.

[BoulderSooner79]

I can't imagine that the elite schools vary much in how they divide the 85 schollies by position. So if there are depth questions at any position (relative to other schools), there can only be a few causes

1) can't convince the top guys to sign on
2) poor evaluation of who to sign on
3) poor development of those that do sign on
4) unusually high injury rate at one position.

[Scott D]

FWIW, OL attrition happened during Mangino the Hutt's time here.

[picasso]

**** Hoover. He's an OSU shill just like the guy before him. Tulsa World sports section blows goats (or ****s sheep however you want to say it).
This.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

I GET IT! I finally understand why we suck so bad. No O-line depth.

I mean, we only had 17 guys set for the roster when we entered two-a-days.

Compare that to Alabama! They have 18 on their roster entering two-a-days!

And I'm guessing Alabama's 11 freshmen and sophomores are all SEC-quality starter ready! They must be. I mean, they're SEC, right? Surely Alabama is not relying on just 7 juniors and seniors to do the heavy lifting on that O-line as they enter SEC play.

[8timechamps]

Kyle Marrs (G) and Ty Darlington (C) are both working with the second team o-line. Both were highly recruited linemen that have been forced into second team duty. Actually, both Marrs and Darlington are surprisingly ahead of the game (in terms of being able to step in and contribute). Good kids (both of them), that should prove to add to our depth as the season moves on.

[cleller]

I know that its from being a partisan, and focused on OU, but doesn't it seem we have just awful luck with injuries? It really seems that say, OSU, just doesn't go thru this like we have.
Nearly every position has been hampered the last few years.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

Kyle Marrs (G) and Ty Darlington (C) are both working with the second team o-line. Both were highly recruited linemen that have been forced into second team duty. Actually, both Marrs and Darlington are surprisingly ahead of the game (in terms of being able to step in and contribute). Good kids (both of them), that should prove to add to our depth as the season moves on.

I'm sorry. I don't believe it. You see...


Fact, OUs evaluation and recruting of ol has been subpar.

So I'm afraid you must be mistaken. Clearly Stoops and staff exercised more of their infamous cronyism doing favors for family friends and giving these two sociopathic troglodytes with the brains and arms of Beavis and Butthead a scholarship. Nobody else would have taken these guys. Clearly, that's a FACT.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

I know that its from being a partisan, and focused on OU, but doesn't it seem we have just awful luck with injuries? It really seems that say, OSU, just doesn't go thru this like we have.
Nearly every position has been hampered the last few years.

I hear ya. It seems that way. But I don't know of any data backing up that the numbers are any worse for us than anywhere else.

Maybe it is the Stoops brand of football. According to Lindy's, last year Arizona lost five (5!) guys to ACL tears... in one year. Now that's a lot.

Arkansas had Knile Davis and Greg Childs (who just re-injured/tore both patellar tendons on one play in a Vikings scrimmage this last weekend) go down last year, and I'm sure that seemed like a lot of players down to the Arkie folks.

South Carolina lost Marcus Lattimore.

I only bring these high profile names up, because when injuries happen to these players who are important to their teams, it probably seems like to all involved that they can't keep anyone healthy.

But the even bigger point is, both Arkansas and South Carolina ended up doing just fine. In fact they were better than fine. They had great years. Other guys stepped up.

Anyone here going to offer up that Arkansas and South Carolina are recruiting better, more reliable (Stephen Garcia, anyone) athletes than OU? (Go for it _75... You're up.)

[soonerboy_odanorth]

My lord I sound like one of those damned sunshine pumpers.

Gonna be a doozy of an opening season post that predicts a 5-7 DOOMED season to get me out of this downward sunshine spiral.

[Pricetag]

Anyone here going to offer up that Arkansas and South Carolina are recruiting better, more reliable (Stephen Garcia, anyone) athletes than OU? (Go for it _75... You're up.)
Heh, I'm with you, but didn't we want Stephen Garcia pretty badly?

[soonerboy_odanorth]

Heh, I'm with you, but didn't we want Stephen Garcia pretty badly?

That's fair. I don't remember us recruiting him... but we sure might have along with about 20 other schools. And we did get Bomar and Rawls for our trouble. And Jones, and Bell, and Allen, and Heupel, and Hybl, and White, and Thompson, and Nichol, and Halzle, and Thompson, and Knight, and... some dude named Bradford.

If we went down the overall list of OL and DL it would probably be about the same. A couple of knuckleheads. A couple of injury cases. A couple that didn't pan out. Several that were great.

The charge is we don't do as well on OL and DL as other programs.

I have a different opinion.

You know what hasn't been brought up that can severely impact depth? Early departures to the NFL.

Did we mis-evaluate those guys? How would our DE situation have looked this year if Hammer could have handled one more year in the fold?

[8timechamps]

My lord I sound like one of those damned sunshine pumpers.

Gonna be a doozy of an opening season post that predicts a 5-7 DOOMED season to get me out of this downward sunshine spiral.


I KNEW IT! Closet Kool-aid drinker!!!

[OU_Sooners75]

Odanorth....

I did check what I read and I mixed two ol as walk ons...it was 1 ol and 1 dl.

As far as the rest goes...we don't have 17 ol on the roster...we have 14 at last update that I read at soonersports. And it included latu and mcgee.

I know you like taking the elist attitude in debate or arguments, just who you are. But if you are too stupid to see OU has a depth issue at OL then that is on you.


We have some numbers coming into fall camp. But with latu not qualifying, habern's career being over, mcgee getting homesick, and evans out, and hollis as a walkon, we have serious depth issue right now at the ol.

Walk ons can prove themselve, see whaley. But your kidding yourself if you think we don't havfe a depth issue.


Looking back to the 2009 OU entered the season with decent depth of 10 olmen. By mid season ou had a tight end playing center and guard.


This year there is already talk about putting ripkowski a 260 pound fullback in the mix at offensive guard just to give him some work there in case of any further injuries. When a coaching staff is already thinking that or doing it, that should be enough proof to anyone of the slightest intelligence that there is a depth issue.


Finally we wouldn't be needing to do that had ou got a couple more olmen through recruiting, be it JUCO or high school. And as far as JUCO the coaches need to do a better job of evaluatging their academics so we are not in the mess we are in now....no matter what position the juco player plays.

[SoonerAtKU]

Again, you're confusing the situation today with how it looked 2-3 weeks ago.

If any position were to lose around 30% of the scholarship players, that's a bad situation. If we went from 8 DT to 5, that's all of a sudden a terrible depth situation. That doesn't mean the coaches didn't prepare for that and it doesn't mean the team isn't able to absorb that loss, just that a situation went from good to bad in a hurry.

[OU_Sooners75]

Again, you're confusing the situation today with how it looked 2-3 weeks ago.

If any position were to lose around 30% of the scholarship players, that's a bad situation. If we went from 8 DT to 5, that's all of a sudden a terrible depth situation. That doesn't mean the coaches didn't prepare for that and it doesn't mean the team isn't able to absorb that loss, just that a situation went from good to bad in a hurry.

Actually the depth looked okay a few weeks ago. But it wasn't great.

I have stated the entirity of the past three or four off seasons that OU needs more olinemen.


Never thought the situation has been terrible and still don't. But the pasture hasn't been green for quite awhile when it comes to depth at ol.


That's my opinion. Sooner_odanorth or anyone else can disagree all they want. B ut at least youdont seem to be a child about the disagreement. :)

[SoonerAtKU]

I try. =)

[soonerboy_odanorth]

I know you like taking the elist attitude in debate or arguments, just who you are. But if you are too stupid to see OU has a depth issue at OL then that is on you.

You are still trying to have it both ways. RIGHT NOW we have a depth issue. I never argued otherwise. Are you reading carefully? Please point out where I made a statement contrary to that. But TWO WEEKS AGO we did not have a depth issue. And I know why you won't acknowledge that... because it pops the balloon of your whole argument.

So again, RIGHT NOW we have 14. TWO WEEKS AGO we had 17! And because we HAD (past tense) good depth we still are (present tense) able to field a good O-line. It is just one that doesn't have (present tense) the depth that it had (past tense) a mere two weeks ago.

Furthermore, in order to have had the good depth to begin with, we had to have recruited good numbers and good talent. Otherwise, right now we would no longer have a solid starting five. But we do. Again, are you having trouble delineating present tense from past tense? Again, are you reading carefully? What is your response to this?

Are you saying that at the moment the wheels started falling off the expected roster and we suddenly went from 17 guys to 14 (or less with the injury to Evans) that the staff was supposed to immediately go out and sign some more players? Do you really think it works that way? Again, not questioning your intelligence, but that seems a pretty lofty expectation.

Bottom line your claim that OU's staff has not focused on recruiting OL and DL as well as other programs is simply not supported, because we DID HAVE GOOD DEPTH TO BEGIN WITH entering the season. I understand very well that right now that is not the case. But what were they supposed to do about that? Have better 20-20 hindsight? Go pluck another lineman from the lineman-garden out back?

Not to mention, the production of the O-line units in particular over the entirety of Stoops tenure has been nothing short of elite. OU could not have posted the offensive numbers they have over the years without excellent O-line play. And we would not have sent the numbers we have to the NFL without solid talent evaluation and development. Those guys didn't just fall in the staff's lap. So again, your argument (OPINION, mind you) simply isn't supported.

I'd like to point out I never questioned your intelligence, just that your logic was dizzying... and by that I meant circular. But you have questioned my intelligence calling me stupid twice now, and heaped "childish" on top. Name-calling is what people resort to when they're arguing and they are caught in a catch-22 with their own argument or when they are caught in a lie. But let me respond to your charge of stupidity and childishness:

You are arguing or debating in a circle. Your points are cancelling each other out. You cannot have it both ways. We either had good depth and talent to begin with and are ok now, just with less depth; or, we never had any depth or talent to begin with and the starting o-line we are fielding now is crap. It's one or the other. If the latter is your opinion, fine. But it is your OPINION.

You tried hard not to, but you have admitted that you got your FACTS wrong regarding scholie vs. walk-on numbers. And, you avoided admitting you misrepresented that we were relying on "several" walk-ons on the o-line.

Also, you are now starting to fall back on "my opinion" talk in your resopnse to _KU and saying [paraphrasing] "oh well going into the season I actually thought our depth was "ok"..." in an effort to save face. Though originally you claimed that your OPINIONS were FACTS (an asocial trait of a pathological liar, btw) and were far more absolute regarding our o-line talent and numbers that have always been bad "since Mangino". Which is to say, you are continually changing your story (you went from "since Mangino" to "the last 3 or 4 years") in an effort to make yourself look better in the eyes of others (another asocial trait of a pathological liar, btw).

Further, you failed to respond or address how this staff was planning on 17 O-linemen going into fall camp and how almighty defending national champ Alabama had all of 18. A FACT, btw, which blows a huge hole in your argument about OU not recruiting the right numbers on o-line as compared to another elite program.

So ultimately are you a coward in addition to being a liar?

Based on your circular logic, presenting of your opinions as facts, unwillingness to admit you were wrong regarding scholarship and walk-on numbers THEN vs. those numbers NOW, and unwillingness to respond to evidence that our numbers really aren't any different than another elite program, that might be a rhetorical question.

I'm interested in your response.



****
P.S. Let's be clear about what a pathological liar is. That is someone who on an almost continual basis lies, but in their own minds they believe that what they are stating is fact. In short, they can't help themselves. Stating as fact what is clearly in the normal adult mind an opinion on a continual basis is an outward asocial trait of a pathological liar. Also, continually "evolving" one's story until they arrive at what in their minds puts them in an unassailable position, is another outward asocial trait of a pathological liar. The pathological liar just doesn't realize they are doing this.

That's opposed to the chronic (habitual) or compulsive liars, who may very well have awareness that they are in fact lying, but due to particular triggers or stresses their decision tree as to whether or not they should lie gets all scrambled and they will often times be unable to stop themselves from lying.

Then of course there is the sociopath who knows they are lying, knows it is wrong, but will lie regardless for any form of personal gain because they just don't care.

[SoonerorLater]

unusual thread, dominated by semantics. My two (2) cents. I think we are currently suffering a lack of depth at O Line today and we were suffering a lack two weeks ago. Given the number 17 we statrted with I believe we had insufficient depth. Given that we had the same problems in 2005 and 2009 on the O lIne and now this year it would be reasonable to expect the staff to realize, that for whatever reason (I have my theories but that is just what they are) we need greater than 3.4 depth on the interior line. Maybe it is a fine number for a lot of teams but if something happens 3 out of the last eight years then you could say there might be a pattern. Going forward they might need to to beef it up to a depth of 3.8 to 4.

[cleller]

I think O-line is a tough position to reliably recruit. Your average HS lineman can't compare in size and responsibility to what walks on the field in college. That's why losing a proven player hurts so bad.

A high school RB or WR that can run by everyone might be easier to bank on that a 17 year old chow hound that can knock another HS kid down.

[OU_Sooners75]

No ondanorth...


Including injuries and quitters and unqualifiers, OU had 14 ol entering the fall camp, not 17.

Edit: there 15 as of yesterday on the roster...not 14, nor 17?

There are currently 13 listed as of this morning.

[SoonerorLater]

I think O-line is a tough position to reliably recruit. Your average HS lineman can't compare in size and responsibility to what walks on the field in college. That's why losing a proven player hurts so bad.

A high school RB or WR that can run by everyone might be easier to bank on that a 17 year old chow hound that can knock another HS kid down.


I agree. Not to rankle any O line types feathers but as a group O Linemen are probably the guys least inclined to workout or ever have had to do rigorous workouts. The type of guy major programs recruit are the huge guys that have heretofore been able to plow thru high schools defenses without needing to do a lot of strength training. A lot of guys just don't want to have to go through the unpleasant conditioning that is required so you will get a lot more attrition than you would from 190 lb DB's. You have other guys that will stay but do their dead level best to get out of as much conditioning as they can. These guys are more likely to get hurt on the field. Also these are the biggest guys on the field. You get a little twisted up and things can go bad fast. Even more so for pass blocking because of the footwork. At least this is my theory why OU has a higher than average amount of casulaties on the Line.

[BoulderSooner79]

I agree. Not to rankle any O line types feathers but as a group O Linemen are probably the guys least inclined to workout or ever have had to do rigorous workouts. The type of guy major programs recruit are the huge guys that have heretofore been able to plow thru high schools defenses without needing to do a lot of strength training. A lot of guys just don't want to have to go through the unpleasant conditioning that is required so you will get a lot more attrition than you would from 190 lb DB's. You have other guys that will stay but do their dead level best to get out of as much conditioning as they can. These guys are more likely to get hurt on the field. Also these are the biggest guys on the field. You get a little twisted up and things can go bad fast. Even more so for pass blocking because of the footwork. At least this is my theory why OU has a higher than average amount of casulaties on the Line.

You lost me at the conclusion. Why would any of this be more applicable to OU than other schools?

[OU_Sooners75]

That's what I was wondering too boulder.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

No ondanorth...


Including injuries and quitters and unqualifiers, OU had 14 ol entering the fall camp, not 17.

Edit: there 15 as of yesterday on the roster...not 14, nor 17?

There are currently 13 listed as of this morning.

You have again and continue to change your story to suit your argument. Thanks, that's all I need. Good luck enjoying the season.

[8timechamps]

Don't forget to factor in the sheer number of snaps taken on offense. More snaps = more potential chances for injury. If you look at it only from a numbers standpoint, it's kinda simple to understand why OU has had more (than average) injuries on the offensive side of the ball.

[SoonerorLater]

You lost me at the conclusion. Why would any of this be more applicable to OU than other schools?

This just my theory mind you but after hearing the rumors for years I'm of the opinion in the case of Coach Schmidt, where there is smoke there is fire. IMO his style would run off more than the average amount of linemen. It can be debated whether this is a good or bad thing. As to pass blocking, I understand you can get twisted up on any play but with pass blocking you are engaged longer with the defense on each individual play. Multiply that by the number of plays our "hurry-up" offense runs and you have more time exposed for the line to get hurt. Consequently the O-line runs a lot more pass blocking in practice increasing their exposure time even more. Bottom line what OU does increases the time our linemen are in harms way.

[cleller]

I can't help feeling that when the players with familiar (aka experienced) names are lost, it is not good news.

[OU_Sooners75]

Danorth...show me where I have changed anything? I admitted where I made a mistake...but I have continually stated ou has had 14 ol on the roster. I forgot obviously one who was austion woods #50.Face it kiddo, the only disagreement with me you have is thinking ou doesn't have a problem in recruiting ol.That said I'm done in this little debate/discussion. You obviously have no damn clue what you are speaking about, especially when such an intellect as yourself cannot even count how many ol there are on the current roster, when you say there is 17 on the roster. Have fun debating yourself son.

[cleller]

I'll say I am optimistic about Bronson Irwin. Hard to believe he's a junior. I remember seeing him on TV when he was in HS in Mustang. What a mountain, and he seemed to have his head in the game. Hoping he rises to the occasion.

[StoopTroup]

If your to stupid to realize that any weakness this years Team might have isn't being addressed by the Coaching Staff, you are using John Hoover headlines and then coming into this thread to adjust what your original premise which is that OU is screwed because of the OL.

Honestly, Hoover's disclaimer in the 3rd to the last line says it best....

"In any event, this Oklahoma Team will play with heart and pride and those are too often underestimated in big time College Athletics".

He then goes on to say there's no way OU will compete for any Championship this year.

It all sounds like he had a deadline for an article on OU and picked on the scab that many of you continue to pick on the Sports Boards.

Seeing how things turn out in September and October will be enough to really see just how well Stoops and his Staff Recruited and Coached in this Off Season. Hold your horses and quit trying to be the guy that told you so.

[picasso]

He had the highest GPA at the Delta house.

[marfacowboy]

There's a dramatic rise in knee injuries in youth athletics, due to intensity of competition and year round sports. In football, I don't know if it's the case, but I'd be willing to be there's a rise in knee injuries, and I bet it's due to two things. One, artificial turf, and two, the size of these guys. They're carrying too much weight, and when you plant and the turf doesn't give, it's a problem.

[cleller]

There's a dramatic rise in knee injuries in youth athletics, due to intensity of competition and year round sports. In football, I don't know if it's the case, but I'd be willing to be there's a rise in knee injuries, and I bet it's due to two things. One, artificial turf, and two, the size of these guys. They're carrying too much weight, and when you plant and the turf doesn't give, it's a problem.

Yep, these guys have gotten bigger, more muscular and powerful, but their joints are not part of the evolution. I guess the new edge in football is to have enough depth at key positions to be able to replace the injured players without too much drop off. Kind of a cold and inhuman tactic, but nobody is going to go back to 190 pound linemen.

Turf is another interesting problem. Obviously the coaches and trainers know about the problems with getting too much traction sometimes, and which shoes to wear. When to sacrifice traction and how much is tough to know.

[marfacowboy]

Turf is another interesting problem. Obviously the coaches and trainers know about the problems with getting too much traction sometimes, and which shoes to wear. When to sacrifice traction and how much is tough to know.

I realize it probably costs more to maintain real grass, but if I were a coach at a school that made a lot of money on football, I'd tear that stuff up and use grass.

[8timechamps]

There's a dramatic rise in knee injuries in youth athletics, due to intensity of competition and year round sports. In football, I don't know if it's the case, but I'd be willing to be there's a rise in knee injuries, and I bet it's due to two things. One, artificial turf, and two, the size of these guys. They're carrying too much weight, and when you plant and the turf doesn't give, it's a problem.

I've noticed that all our offensive AND defensive linemen are wearing those reinforced knee braces. Our offensive line started wearing them (as a unit) about five years ago, but I haven't seen our defensive line unit wear them until this year.

I think the size, strength and speed has the most to do with today's injuries. If you compare a high school player from even 10 years ago to one today, the overall athleticism increase is exponentially better.