A New Week, A New Executive Order, This One's a Doozy

[LiveLaughLove]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/27/obama-backs-race-based-school-discipline-policies/


President Barack Obama is backing a controversial campaign by progressives to regulate schools’ disciplinary actions so that members of major racial and ethnic groups are penalized at equal rates, regardless of individuals’ behavior.

His July 26 executive order established a government panel to promote “a positive school climate that does not rely on methods that result in disparate use of disciplinary tools.”

Uh, yeah.


“African Americans lack equal access to highly effective teachers and principals, safe schools, and challenging college-preparatory classes, and they disproportionately experience school discipline,” said the order, titled “White House Initiative On Educational Excellence.”

Because of those causes, the report suggests, “over a third of African American students do not graduate from high school on time with a regular high school diploma, and only four percent of African American high school graduates interested in college are college-ready across a range of subjects.”

So we now have a discipline quota. Outstanding. And so progressive.


The order created a “President’s Advisory Commission on Educational Excellence for African Americans.” It will include senior officials from several federal agencies — including the Departments of Education, Justice and Labor

So President Uniter once again shows he is President Divider. And Labor? How is Labor involved in this beyond being in Obama's hip pocket.

Spare the faux outrage crud. I'm not outraged at all. I was too busy laughing. Do libs truly sit around and think of this stuff? Hard to believe.

The modern Democrat Party, the Modern Plantation. Bringing America to Mediocrity, One Executive Order at a Time.

[cleller]

Thru welfare and Affirmative Action, the government has practically destroyed black families. The effect of those programs is children with poor discipline. The government now chooses to work on the effect, rather than the cause.

[Breadburner]

Just throw some more money at it....Yeah,that will work....!!!

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Well I honestly don't see how you deduce "quotas" out of the Executive Order.



Executive Order -- White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans
EXECUTIVE ORDER

- - - - - - -

WHITE HOUSE INITIATIVE ON EDUCATIONAL EXCELLENCE
FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, to restore the country to its role as the global leader in education, to strengthen the Nation by improving educational outcomes for African Americans of all ages, and to help ensure that all African Americans receive an education that properly prepares them for college, productive careers, and satisfying lives, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Policy. Over the course of America's history, African American men and women have strengthened our Nation, including by leading reforms, overcoming obstacles, and breaking down barriers. In the less than 60 years since the Brown v. Board of Education decision put America on a path toward equal educational opportunity, America's educational system has undergone a remarkable transformation, and many African American children who attended the substandard segregated schools of the 1950s have grown up to see their children attend integrated elementary and secondary schools, colleges, and universities.

However, substantial obstacles to equal educational opportunity still remain in America's educational system. African Americans lack equal access to highly effective teachers and principals, safe schools, and challenging college-preparatory classes, and they disproportionately experience school discipline and referrals to special education. African American student achievement not only lags behind that of their domestic peers by an average of two grade levels, but also behind students in almost every other developed nation. Over a third of African American students do not graduate from high school on time with a regular high school diploma, and only four percent of African American high school graduates interested in college are college-ready across a range of subjects. An even greater number of African American males do not graduate with a regular high school diploma, and African American males also experience disparate rates of incarceration.

Significantly improving the educational outcomes of African Americans will provide substantial benefits for our country by, among other things, increasing college completion rates, productivity, employment rates, and the number of African American teachers. Enhanced educational outcomes lead to more productive careers, improved economic opportunity, and greater social well-being for all Americans. Complementing the role of Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) in preparing generations of African American students for

successful careers, and the work of my Administration's separate White House Initiative on Historically Black Colleges and Universities, this new Initiative's focus on improving all the sequential levels of education will produce a more effective educational continuum for all African American students.

To reach the ambitious education goals we have set for our Nation, as well as to ensure equality of access and opportunity for all, we must provide the support that will enable African American students to improve their level of educational achievement through rigorous and well-rounded academic and support services that will prepare them for college, a career, and a lifetime of learning.

Sec. 2. White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans.

(a) Establishment. There is hereby established the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans (Initiative), to be housed in the Department of Education (Department). There shall be an Executive Director of the Initiative, to be appointed by the Secretary of Education (Secretary). The Initiative shall be supported by the Interagency Working Group established under subsection (c) of this section and advised by the Commission established under section 3 of this order.

(b) Mission and Functions.

(1) The Initiative will help to restore the United States to its role as the global leader in education; strengthen the Nation by improving educational outcomes for African Americans of all ages; and help ensure that African Americans receive a complete and competitive education that prepares them for college, a satisfying career, and productive citizenship.

(2) The Initiative will complement and reinforce the Historically Black Colleges and Universities Initiative established by Executive Order 13532 of February 26, 2010, and together, they both will support enhanced educational outcomes for African Americans at every level of the American education system, including early childhood education; elementary, secondary, and postsecondary education; career and technical education; and adult education.

(3) To help expand educational opportunities, improve educational outcomes, and deliver a complete and competitive education for all African Americans, the Initiative shall, consistent with applicable law, promote, encourage, and undertake efforts designed to meet the following objectives:

(i) increasing general understanding of the causes of the educational challenges faced by African American students, whether they are in urban, suburban, or rural learning environments;

(ii) increasing the percentage of African American children who enter kindergarten ready for success by improving their access to high-quality programs and services that enable early learning and development of children from birth through age 5;

(iii) decreasing the disproportionate number of referrals of African American children from general education to special education by addressing the root causes of the referrals and eradicating discriminatory referrals;

(iv) implementing successful and innovative education reform strategies and practices in America's public schools to ensure that African American students receive a rigorous and well-rounded education in safe and healthy environments, and have access to high-level, rigorous course work and support services that will prepare them for college, a career, and civic participation;

(v) ensuring that all African American students have comparable access to the resources necessary to obtain a high-quality education, including effective teachers and school leaders, in part by supporting efforts to improve the recruitment, preparation, development, and retention of successful African American teachers and school leaders and other effective teachers and school leaders responsible for the education of African American students;

(vi) reducing the dropout rate of African American students and helping African American students graduate from high school prepared for college and a career, in part by promoting a positive school climate that does not rely on methods that result in disparate use of disciplinary tools, and by supporting successful and innovative dropout prevention and recovery strategies that better engage African American youths in their learning, help them catch up academically, and provide those who have left the educational system with pathways to reentry;

(vii) increasing college access and success for African American students and providing support to help ensure that a greater percentage of African Americans complete college and contribute to the goal of having America again lead the world in the proportion of adults who are college graduates by 2020, in part through strategies to strengthen the capacity of institutions of higher education that serve large numbers of African American students, including community colleges, HBCUs, Predominantly Black Institutions (PBIs), and other institutions; and

(viii) enhancing the educational and life opportunities of African Americans by fostering positive family and community engagement in education; reducing racial isolation and resegregation of elementary and secondary schools to promote understanding and tolerance among all Americans; improving the quality of, and expanding access to, adult education, literacy, and career and technical education; and increasing opportunities for education and career advancement in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

(4) In working to fulfill its mission and objectives, the Initiative shall, consistent with applicable law:

(i) identify evidence-based best practices that can provide African American students a rigorous and well-rounded education in safe and healthy environments, as well as access to support services, which will prepare them for college, a career, and civic participation;

(ii) develop a national network of individuals, organizations, and communities to share and implement best practices related to the education of African Americans, including those identified as most at risk;

(iii) help ensure that Federal programs and initiatives administered by the Department and other agencies are serving and meeting the educational needs of African Americans, including by encouraging agencies to incorporate best practices into appropriate discretionary programs where permitted by law;

(iv) work closely with the Executive Office of the President on key Administration priorities related to the education of African Americans;

(v) increase the participation of the African American community, including institutions that serve that community, in the Department's programs and in education-related programs at other agencies;

(vi) advise the officials of the Department and other agencies on issues related to the educational attainment of African Americans;

(vii) advise the Secretary on the development, implementation, and coordination of educational programs and initiatives at the Department and other agencies that are designed to improve educational opportunities and outcomes for African Americans of all ages; and

(viii) encourage and develop partnerships with public, private, philanthropic, and nonprofit stakeholders to improve African Americans' readiness for school, college, and career, as well as their college persistence and completion.

(5) The Initiative shall periodically publish reports on its activities. The Secretary and the Executive Director of the Initiative, in consultation with the Working Group and the Chair of the Commission established under subsection (c) of this section and section 3 of this order, respectively, may develop and submit to the President recommendations designed to advance and promote educational opportunities and attainment for African Americans.

(c) Interagency Working Group.

(1) There is established the Federal Interagency Working Group on Educational Excellence for African Americans (Working Group), which shall be convened and chaired by the Initiative's Executive Director and that shall support the efforts of the Initiative described in subsection (b) of this section.

(2) The Working Group shall consist of senior officials from the Department, the White House Domestic Policy Council, the Department of Justice, the Department of Labor, the Department of Health and Human Services, the National Science Foundation, the Department of Defense, and such additional agencies and offices as the President may subsequently designate. Senior officials shall be designated by the heads of their respective agencies and offices.

(3) The Initiative's Executive Director may establish subgroups of the Working Group to focus on different aspects of the educational system (such as early childhood education, K-12 education, higher education (including HBCUs and PBIs), career and technical education, adult education, or correctional education and reengagement) or educational challenges facing particular populations of African Americans (such as young men, disconnected or out-of-school youth, individuals with disabilities, children identified as gifted and talented, single-parent households, or adults already in the workforce).

(d) Administration. The Department shall provide funding and administrative support for the Initiative and the Working Group, to the extent permitted by law and within existing appropriations. To the extent permitted by law, other agencies and offices represented on the Working Group may detail personnel to the Initiative, to assist the Department in meeting the objectives of this order.

(e) Collaboration Among White House Initiatives. The Initiative may collaborate with the White House Initiatives on American Indian and Alaska Native Education, Educational Excellence for Hispanics, Asian-American and Pacific Islanders, and (consistent with section 3(c) of this order) Historically Black Colleges and Universities, whenever appropriate in light of their shared objectives.

Sec. 3. President's Advisory Commission on Educational Excellence for African Americans.

(a) Establishment. There is established in the Department the President's Advisory Commission on Educational Excellence for African Americans (Commission).

(b) Commission Mission and Scope. The Commission shall advise the President and the Secretary on matters pertaining to the educational attainment of the African American community, including:

(1) the development, implementation, and coordination of educational programs and initiatives at the Department and other agencies to improve educational opportunities and outcomes for African Americans of all ages;

(2) efforts to increase the participation of the African American community and institutions that serve the African American community in the Department's programs and in education programs at other agencies;

(3) efforts to engage the philanthropic, business, nonprofit, and education communities in a national dialogue on the mission and objectives of this order; and

(4) the establishment of partnerships with public, private, philanthropic, and nonprofit stakeholders to meet the mission and policy objectives of this order.

continued....

[SanJoaquinSooner]

The Commission shall meet periodically, but at least twice a year.

(c) Commission Membership and Chair.

(1) The Commission shall consist of not more than 25 members appointed by the President. The President shall designate one member of the Commission to serve as Chair. The Executive Director of the Initiative shall also serve as the Executive Director of the Commission and administer the work of the Commission. The Chair of the Commission shall work with the Executive Director to convene regular meetings of the Commission, determine its agenda, and direct its work, consistent with this order.

(2) The Commission may include individuals with relevant experience or subject-matter expertise that the President deems appropriate, as well as individuals who may serve as representatives of a variety of sectors, including the education sector (early childhood education, elementary and secondary education, higher education (including HBCUs and PBIs), career and technical education, and adult education), labor organizations, research

institutions, the military, corporate and financial institutions, public and private philanthropic organizations, and nonprofit and community-based organizations at the national, State, regional, or local levels.

(3) In addition to the 25 members appointed by the President, the Commission shall also include two members from the President's Board of Advisors on Historically Black Colleges and Universities (Board), designated by the President. In turn, the Board will henceforth include two members from the Commission, designated by the President. This reciprocal arrangement will foster direct communication and vital consultations that will benefit both bodies.

(4) The Executive Director of the Commission and the Executive Director of the Board shall convene at least one annual joint meeting between the Commission and the Board for the purpose of sharing information and forging collaborative courses of action designed to fulfill their respective missions. Such meetings shall be in addition to other prescribed meetings of the Commission or Board.

(5) The Executive Director of the Commission shall be a non-voting, ex officio member of the Board and shall be the Commission's liaison to the Board; and the Executive Director of the Board shall be a non-voting, ex officio member of the Commission and shall be the Board's liaison to the Commission.

(d) Commission Administration. The Department shall provide funding and administrative support for the Commission, to the extent permitted by law and within existing appropriations. Members of the Commission shall serve without compensation but shall be allowed travel expenses, including per diem in lieu of subsistence, as authorized by law for persons serving intermittently in the Government service (5 U.S.C. 5701-5707). Insofar as the Federal Advisory Committee Act, as amended (5 U.S.C. App.) (the "Act"), may apply to the administration of the Commission, any functions of the President under the Act, except that of reporting to the Congress, shall be performed by the Secretary, in accordance with the guidelines issued by the Administrator of General Services.

Sec. 4. General Provisions. (a) The heads of agencies shall assist and provide information to the Initiative as may be necessary to carry out the functions of the Initiative, consistent with applicable law.

(b) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(1) the authority granted by law to an executive department, agency, or the head thereof; or

(2) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(c) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

(d) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

BARACK OBAMA

[cleller]

Maybe quotas is not the best word. Still, it seems like it is making the schools responsible to take action on a problem that is not of their making. Since they cannot fix the causes of this, they may just manipulate their enforcement practices, to make the numbers look like something has changed. (here "numbers" has kind of a quota feel)

From the Executive Order:
"... by promoting a positive school climate that does not rely on methods that result in disparate use of disciplinary tools..."

from the news story:

“What this means is that whites and Asians will get suspended for things that blacks don’t get suspended for,” because school officials will try to level punishments despite groups’ different infraction rates, predicted Hans Bader, a counsel at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. Bader is a former official in the Education Department’s Office for Civil Rights, and has sued and represented school districts and colleges in civil-rights cases.

also:

“It is too bad that the president has chosen to set up a new bureaucracy with a focus on one particular racial group, to the exclusion of all others,” said Roger Clegg, the president of the Center for Equal Opportunity.

[soonerhubs]

Hmmm... Doing this during an election season is purely coincidence. Right...

[soonercruiser]

Well I honestly don't see how you deduce "quotas" out of the Executive Order.



Executive Order -- White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans
EXECUTIVE ORDER

- - - - - - -

WHITE HOUSE INITIATIVE ON EDUCATIONAL EXCELLENCE
FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, to restore the country to its role as the global leader in education, to strengthen the Nation by improving educational outcomes for African Americans of all ages, and to help ensure that all African Americans receive an education that properly prepares them for college, productive careers, and satisfying lives, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Policy. Over the course of America's history, African American men and women have strengthened our Nation, including by leading reforms, overcoming obstacles, and breaking down barriers. In the less than 60 years since the Brown v. Board of Education decision put America on a path toward equal educational opportunity, America's educational system has undergone a remarkable transformation, and many African American children who attended the substandard segregated schools of the 1950s have grown up to see their children attend integrated elementary and secondary schools, colleges, and universities.

However, substantial obstacles to equal educational opportunity still remain in America's educational system. African Americans lack equal access to highly effective teachers and principals, safe schools, and challenging college-preparatory classes, and they disproportionately experience school discipline and referrals to special education. African American student achievement not only lags behind that of their domestic peers by an average of two grade levels, but also behind students in almost every other developed nation. Over a third of African American students do not graduate from high school on time with a regular high school diploma, and only four percent of African American high school graduates interested in college are college-ready across a range of subjects. An even greater number of African American males do not graduate with a regular high school diploma, and African American males also experience disparate rates of incarceration.

Significantly improving the educational outcomes of African Americans will provide substantial benefits for our country by, among other things, increasing college completion rates, productivity, employment rates, and the number of African American teachers. Enhanced educational outcomes lead to more productive careers, improved economic opportunity, and greater social well-being for all Americans. Complementing the role of Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) in preparing generations of African American students for

successful careers, and the work of my Administration's separate White House Initiative on Historically Black Colleges and Universities, this new Initiative's focus on improving all the sequential levels of education will produce a more effective educational continuum for all African American students.

To reach the ambitious education goals we have set for our Nation, as well as to ensure equality of access and opportunity for all, we must provide the support that will enable African American students to improve their level of educational achievement through rigorous and well-rounded academic and support services that will prepare them for college, a career, and a lifetime of learning.

Sec. 2. White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans.

(a) Establishment. There is hereby established the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans (Initiative), to be housed in the Department of Education (Department). There shall be an Executive Director of the Initiative, to be appointed by the Secretary of Education (Secretary). The Initiative shall be supported by the Interagency Working Group established under subsection (c) of this section and advised by the Commission established under section 3 of this order.

(b) Mission and Functions.

(1) The Initiative will help to restore the United States to its role as the global leader in education; strengthen the Nation by improving educational outcomes for African Americans of all ages; and help ensure that African Americans receive a complete and competitive education that prepares them for college, a satisfying career, and productive citizenship.

(2) The Initiative will complement and reinforce the Historically Black Colleges and Universities Initiative established by Executive Order 13532 of February 26, 2010, and together, they both will support enhanced educational outcomes for African Americans at every level of the American education system, including early childhood education; elementary, secondary, and postsecondary education; career and technical education; and adult education.

(3) To help expand educational opportunities, improve educational outcomes, and deliver a complete and competitive education for all African Americans, the Initiative shall, consistent with applicable law, promote, encourage, and undertake efforts designed to meet the following objectives:

(i) increasing general understanding of the causes of the educational challenges faced by African American students, whether they are in urban, suburban, or rural learning environments;

(ii) increasing the percentage of African American children who enter kindergarten ready for success by improving their access to high-quality programs and services that enable early learning and development of children from birth through age 5;

(iii) decreasing the disproportionate number of referrals of African American children from general education to special education by addressing the root causes of the referrals and eradicating discriminatory referrals;

(iv) implementing successful and innovative education reform strategies and practices in America's public schools to ensure that African American students receive a rigorous and well-rounded education in safe and healthy environments, and have access to high-level, rigorous course work and support services that will prepare them for college, a career, and civic participation;

(v) ensuring that all African American students have comparable access to the resources necessary to obtain a high-quality education, including effective teachers and school leaders, in part by supporting efforts to improve the recruitment, preparation, development, and retention of successful African American teachers and school leaders and other effective teachers and school leaders responsible for the education of African American students;

(vi) reducing the dropout rate of African American students and helping African American students graduate from high school prepared for college and a career, in part by promoting a positive school climate that does not rely on methods that result in disparate use of disciplinary tools, and by supporting successful and innovative dropout prevention and recovery strategies that better engage African American youths in their learning, help them catch up academically, and provide those who have left the educational system with pathways to reentry;

(vii) increasing college access and success for African American students and providing support to help ensure that a greater percentage of African Americans complete college and contribute to the goal of having America again lead the world in the proportion of adults who are college graduates by 2020, in part through strategies to strengthen the capacity of institutions of higher education that serve large numbers of African American students, including community colleges, HBCUs, Predominantly Black Institutions (PBIs), and other institutions; and

(viii) enhancing the educational and life opportunities of African Americans by fostering positive family and community engagement in education; reducing racial isolation and resegregation of elementary and secondary schools to promote understanding and tolerance among all Americans; improving the quality of, and expanding access to, adult education, literacy, and career and technical education; and increasing opportunities for education and career advancement in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

(4) In working to fulfill its mission and objectives, the Initiative shall, consistent with applicable law:

(i) identify evidence-based best practices that can provide African American students a rigorous and well-rounded education in safe and healthy environments, as well as access to support services, which will prepare them for college, a career, and civic participation;

(ii) develop a national network of individuals, organizations, and communities to share and implement best practices related to the education of African Americans, including those identified as most at risk;

(iii) help ensure that Federal programs and initiatives administered by the Department and other agencies are serving and meeting the educational needs of African Americans, including by encouraging agencies to incorporate best practices into appropriate discretionary programs where permitted by law;

(iv) work closely with the Executive Office of the President on key Administration priorities related to the education of African Americans;

(v) increase the participation of the African American community, including institutions that serve that community, in the Department's programs and in education-related programs at other agencies;

(vi) advise the officials of the Department and other agencies on issues related to the educational attainment of African Americans;

(vii) advise the Secretary on the development, implementation, and coordination of educational programs and initiatives at the Department and other agencies that are designed to improve educational opportunities and outcomes for African Americans of all ages; and

(viii) encourage and develop partnerships with public, private, philanthropic, and nonprofit stakeholders to improve African Americans' readiness for school, college, and career, as well as their college persistence and completion.

(5) The Initiative shall periodically publish reports on its activities. The Secretary and the Executive Director of the Initiative, in consultation with the Working Group and the Chair of the Commission established under subsection (c) of this section and section 3 of this order, respectively, may develop and submit to the President recommendations designed to advance and promote educational opportunities and attainment for African Americans.

(c) Interagency Working Group.

(1) There is established the Federal Interagency Working Group on Educational Excellence for African Americans (Working Group), which shall be convened and chaired by the Initiative's Executive Director and that shall support the efforts of the Initiative described in subsection (b) of this section.

(2) The Working Group shall consist of senior officials from the Department, the White House Domestic Policy Council, the Department of Justice, the Department of Labor, the Department of Health and Human Services, the National Science Foundation, the Department of Defense, and such additional agencies and offices as the President may subsequently designate. Senior officials shall be designated by the heads of their respective agencies and offices.

(3) The Initiative's Executive Director may establish subgroups of the Working Group to focus on different aspects of the educational system (such as early childhood education, K-12 education, higher education (including HBCUs and PBIs), career and technical education, adult education, or correctional education and reengagement) or educational challenges facing particular populations of African Americans (such as young men, disconnected or out-of-school youth, individuals with disabilities, children identified as gifted and talented, single-parent households, or adults already in the workforce).

(d) Administration. The Department shall provide funding and administrative support for the Initiative and the Working Group, to the extent permitted by law and within existing appropriations. To the extent permitted by law, other agencies and offices represented on the Working Group may detail personnel to the Initiative, to assist the Department in meeting the objectives of this order.

(e) Collaboration Among White House Initiatives. The Initiative may collaborate with the White House Initiatives on American Indian and Alaska Native Education, Educational Excellence for Hispanics, Asian-American and Pacific Islanders, and (consistent with section 3(c) of this order) Historically Black Colleges and Universities, whenever appropriate in light of their shared objectives.

Sec. 3. President's Advisory Commission on Educational Excellence for African Americans.

(a) Establishment. There is established in the Department the President's Advisory Commission on Educational Excellence for African Americans (Commission).

(b) Commission Mission and Scope. The Commission shall advise the President and the Secretary on matters pertaining to the educational attainment of the African American community, including:

(1) the development, implementation, and coordination of educational programs and initiatives at the Department and other agencies to improve educational opportunities and outcomes for African Americans of all ages;

(2) efforts to increase the participation of the African American community and institutions that serve the African American community in the Department's programs and in education programs at other agencies;

(3) efforts to engage the philanthropic, business, nonprofit, and education communities in a national dialogue on the mission and objectives of this order; and

(4) the establishment of partnerships with public, private, philanthropic, and nonprofit stakeholders to meet the mission and policy objectives of this order.

continued....

I'm sure glad that Obama doesn't ever bother to address or "order" anything that gets at the root cause.
That might put some blame on the Black Community of the public education system.

[sooner n houston]

SanJoaquinSooner, well or anyone.

And what does this mean?

reducing racial isolation and resegregation of elementary and secondary schools to promote understanding and tolerance among all Americans;

From (b) Mission and Functions, number 3, (viii)

[trwxxa]

The first thing the members of this group should do is put their kids in an urban public school. The President should as well. They need to see what life is really like on the streets these days.

This is nothing but pandering to the base. The worse part is the hispanic community will turn a blind eye to this, though the education system in predominantely hispanic communities has the same issues.

Thanks for finding the link. This is certainly not something I will see in the newspaper or public news sources.

P.S. I have to chuckle at the use of the term "progressives" in the beginning.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Repeating a previous post, you can't throw money at the problem and fix it. Washington DC's schools are some of the highest funded and worst performing in the nation. Correct me if I am wrong somebody, but the lowest funded school districts are in Iowa? and score around national average.

Here in SC, we have the "Corridor of Shame" a county inland along I-95. None of the school districts there have even attempted a sales tax bond referendum to try to raise funding of their own, they just sue the state for more money because their property taxes don't cut it.

[marfacowboy]

Thru welfare and Affirmative Action, the government has practically destroyed black families. The effect of those programs is children with poor discipline. The government now chooses to work on the effect, rather than the cause.

The government hasn't practically "destroyed black families." The reality of life for blacks, especially blacks in the American south is this. They're only essentially two generations removed from Jim Crow laws and outright discrimination. Generally speaking, blacks have only had the same opportunities as whites for less than fifty years, fifty years after slavery. And that's strictly speaking from a legal standpoint. As someone that grew up in the Deep South, I can tell you for a fact they didn't have equal opportunities in the South for many years after that.
Whites fled to the suburbs, the inner city schools collapsed, to a large degree because the best teachers left, and we all know what's happened from there. Now we have a perpetual cycle of hopelessness, worsened by the collapse of the family unit in black households. Poorly educated black women having children that will in turn be poorly educated, angry, depressed and on a road to nowhere.
I don't begin to know what the answer is other than hope and pray we can rebuild our manufacturing base and get these kids on a vocational path. That, and start passing out birth control to sixth graders in the inner city.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Just sayin' I don't see too many whites or other races than one at those Flash mob steal-a-thons at convenience stores, the Wal-Mart or now at some Chicago clothing store that lost $3K worth of designer jeans over the weekend... There is a reason why discipline may be more focused on one particular group, perhaps it is out of need!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

The government hasn't practically "destroyed black families."

Johnson and the Great Society has... Generations on the dole and not having to support themselves or consequences of single parent households... That's your answer right there...

[OU_Sooners75]

The government hasn't practically "destroyed black families." The reality of life for blacks, especially blacks in the American south is this. They're only essentially two generations removed from Jim Crow laws and outright discrimination. Generally speaking, blacks have only had the same opportunities as whites for less than fifty years, fifty years after slavery. And that's strictly speaking from a legal standpoint. As someone that grew up in the Deep South, I can tell you for a fact they didn't have equal opportunities in the South for many years after that.
Whites fled to the suburbs, the inner city schools collapsed, to a large degree because the best teachers left, and we all know what's happened from there. Now we have a perpetual cycle of hopelessness, worsened by the collapse of the family unit in black households. Poorly educated black women having children that will in turn be poorly educated, angry, depressed and on a road to nowhere.
I don't begin to know what the answer is other than hope and pray we can rebuild our manufacturing base and get these kids on a vocational path. That, and start passing out birth control to sixth graders in the inner city.


You should stop acting as if you know what goes on in a black person's mind, let alone community.

50 years removed from slavery? Did I read that correctly? Slavery has been removed from this country since right before the start of the civil war. Hell, that was the cause of the Civil War (or at least the cause to states seceding from the union).

Suburbia has always been predominately white, or at least since the advancement of travel made it easier to live further from your job.

What do you say about the poorly educated white woman that is popping out children? Children without a father?

The problem isnt the system, it never has been, since segregation ended. The problem is and will always be the individuals.

Until the individual decides to make a go of it. until the individual decides to stop being lazy and wishing for a hand out. Until the individual decides to get their children a better education, Then the individual will get what their effort rewards them with.

The problem with your post. You think it is a system problem. It isn't. It is an individual problem. And until everyone in this country starts taking responsibility for their own actions, then nothing will ever change it.

Demographics be damned...If you don't want to live the stereotype, then do something not to!

[marfacowboy]

You should stop acting as if you know what goes on in a black person's mind, let alone community.

I didn't act like that at all. I simply stated historical facts.


50 years removed from slavery? Did I read that correctly? Slavery has been removed from this country since right before the start of the civil war. Hell, that was the cause of the Civil War (or at least the cause to states seceding from the union).

No, you really didn't read it correctly, but I wasn't very clear, either. I said they "have only had the same opportunities as whites for less than fifty years." Meaning, since 1964. I made the reference to slavery only to state that they had in fact come from slavery. But to your point, which actually makes my point even stronger when you examine the historical reality of the situation, is there was a 100+ year period where they clearly didn't have an equal chance.


What do you say about the poorly educated white woman that is popping out children? Children without a father?

Same thing. The only difference is one is white and the other is black.


The problem isnt the system, it never has been, since segregation ended. The problem is and will always be the individuals.

Have you ever lived in the Deep South? Spent years researching our culture? Unless you have, I really don't think you have any idea as to what's gone on down here.


The problem with your post. You think it is a system problem. It isn't. It is an individual problem. And until everyone in this country starts taking responsibility for their own actions, then nothing will ever change it.

No, I never said that. I think the system played a part in setting the stage....slavery>Jim Crow>equal under the law but facing racism in the 1960's and 1970's>generations with damn near everything stacked against them.
Today, there is in fact an opportunity. But the odds are still stacked against a black kid going to city schools in Memphis, TN. And if you really think that kid has the same opportunity as a kid at one of the elite prep schools or suburban majority white schools, you're just flat our wrong.

[olevetonahill]

You should stop acting as if you know everything and that you are better than everyone



I didn't act like that at all.

Liar, Liar Pants on fire :beaten:

[OU_Sooners75]

I didn't act like that at all. I simply stated historical facts.



No, you really didn't read it correctly, but I wasn't very clear, either. I said they "have only had the same opportunities as whites for less than fifty years." Meaning, since 1964. I made the reference to slavery only to state that they had in fact come from slavery. But to your point, which actually makes my point even stronger when you examine the historical reality of the situation, is there was a 100+ year period where they clearly didn't have an equal chance.



Same thing. The only difference is one is white and the other is black.



Have you ever lived in the Deep South? Spent years researching our culture? Unless you have, I really don't think you have any idea as to what's gone on down here.



No, I never said that. I think the system played a part in setting the stage....slavery>Jim Crow>equal under the law but facing racism in the 1960's and 1970's>generations with damn near everything stacked against them.
Today, there is in fact an opportunity. But the odds are still stacked against a black kid going to city schools in Memphis, TN. And if you really think that kid has the same opportunity as a kid at one of the elite prep schools or suburban majority white schools, you're just flat our wrong.

So you have started your own telecommuication company, researched the deep south culture, and?

Seems like you are a well rounded individual...LOL


What is your definition on the deep south? Is southern Texas deep enough for you? If so, yes. If not, then no.

But I can say this much. The system is broken...but it isnt the system that has caused this problem. It is the entitlement rich tradition of folk that are too damn lazy to tuck their hand in and say enough is enough and change their own atmosphere and environment.

People need to stop blaming everyone else but themselves. You can do all the research of culture til your heart is content. The fact is, until the individual decides they want to change or want a better life, then they wont.

And until the government decides to give people an unlimited amount of handout money nothing will motivate the lazy people. And why should they be motivated? They don't have to work, and still get damn near free HUD housing, almost $200/month per person in foodstamps per month. Almost $300/person in TANF benefits. Not to mention free food (limited food items) if they are on WIC.

Problem 1: the individual not putting forth the effort to change their own lifestyle.
Underlying problem: the government not putting limitations on how long a person can access the social entitlement programs.

Finally, the problem is not just in the deep south. It is all over this nation.

Same problem in OKC that there is in NYC that there is in Memphis that there is in Mobile....

Poor education is only that way because the parent fails to get involved in their childs education.

[cleller]

Johnson and the Great Society has... Generations on the dole and not having to support themselves or consequences of single parent households... That's your answer right there...

I stand by my statement the government programs have practically destroyed black families. Prior to the Great Society mess, black families/marriage was much stronger. This isn't about Jim Crow laws, its about the insipid and condescending reasoning by Democrats that blacks cannot provide for themselves.

That attitude has been the catalyst for ever increasing government dependence, lack of educational attainment, and exposure to crime and violence. The repeal of Jim Crow laws was proper. Fostering the ideology that blacks cannot stand up as a family unit without government aid and influence is improper, and detrimental.

For the record I'm originally from Forest, Mississippi, where my family has lived since the late 1840s. Coincidentally, black families are stronger there, and black on black crime is not nearly as bad as in the northern cities.

[marfacowboy]

So you have started your own telecommuication company, researched the deep south culture, and?

Seems like you are a well rounded individual...LOL

I don't see any reason for being insulting.
I grew up in the deep South. I have a degree in History, and I've read my daughter's PhD research on the subject, so I know a thing or two about it.



What is your definition on the deep south? Is southern Texas deep enough for you? If so, yes. If not, then no.

Southeastern Texas, primarily because of the large numbers of southerners from other states that went there after the war.


People need to stop blaming everyone else but themselves. You can do all the research of culture til your heart is content. The fact is, until the individual decides they want to change or want a better life, then they wont.

I don't deny there are freeloaders. I don't deny the government and some programs contribute the problem. But you can't deny, and have any level of intellectual integrity, the cultural and institutional aspects I previously mentioned have had a significant impact on the societal issues we see today.
Your view is way too reductive. It's a highly complex sociological issue that cannot be solved by attacking what you call "the welfare state."

Same problem in OKC that there is in NYC that there is in Memphis that there is in Mobile....

No, Memphis is unique and the statistics bear that out. Memphis is a majority black city andranks first for the highest percentage of families living in poverty, at nearly one in four. Memphis is No. 1 in the nation for unwed parents, with one out of every two children in the city of Memphis being raised that way. The city ranks No. 1 for children living in poverty, No. 1 for adults living in poverty and No. 1 for births to teen mothers. It ranks No. 1 for the highest crime rate among big cities.


Poor education is only that way because the parent fails to get involved in their childs education.
To a degree. But if you put a smart kid in Melrose High School, even with involved parents, he wouldn't do nearly as well or qualify for thesame schools as a kid that went to my high school.
The city schools in Memphis are awful. There are a couple of exceptions, but if you graduate from Memphis City Schools, you are at a distinct disadvantage. That's why most white parents moved their kids. It's not just parental involvement.

[marfacowboy]

I stand by my statement the government programs have practically destroyed black families. Prior to the Great Society mess, black families/marriage was much stronger. This isn't about Jim Crow laws, its about the insipid and condescending reasoning by Democrats that blacks cannot provide for themselves.

That attitude has been the catalyst for ever increasing government dependence, lack of educational attainment, and exposure to crime and violence. The repeal of Jim Crow laws was proper. Fostering the ideology that blacks cannot stand up as a family unit without government aid and influence is improper, and detrimental.

I think there was definitely a cultural change from the families I saw in the 1960's and onward. But I don't believe this is due to "government programs." There's not a single peer reviewed article with even a modicum of research that supports that premise. Not one. It's much more complex. You have to also consider the rise of black militancy, which coincided with the rise in countercultural movements in the white community. Blacks and white rebelled in the '60's against the status quo. The public educational system started to collapse. Whites left in droves and went to academies. All of these events and trends had a profound effect on where we are today.

[cleller]

I think there was definitely a cultural change from the families I saw in the 1960's and onward. But I don't believe this is due to "government programs." There's not a single peer reviewed article with even a modicum of research that supports that premise. Not one. .

How you can know this, I have no idea. Not one.

At any rate, I would primarily rely on what I have seen and experienced on matters like this. I've seen firsthand for many years the collapse of marriage and family units. This is across the board, but especially pronounced in black families. Hopefully, we don't have to debate that fact. We don't need scholarly papers to tell us that the number of single mothers has increased dramatically since the Great Society programs.

The basics are that people must be able to eat, clothe, and house themselves. Historically, in the US, the family unit was responsible for this. When government programs began meeting these needs, stable family units began to dissolve. Surely, we can all agree that is not desirable.

This is a good excerpt from a WSJ article by Jason Riley discussing this very topic with Walter Williams; both men are black. Williams has PhD, and is a professor of economics at George Mason University. He seems sufficiently scholarly to speak on the subject:

Even in the antebellum era, when slaves often weren't permitted to wed, most black children lived with a biological mother and father. During Reconstruction and up until the 1940s, 75% to 85% of black children lived in two-parent families. Today, more than 70% of black children are born to single women. "The welfare state has done to black Americans what slavery couldn't do, what Jim Crow couldn't do, what the harshest racism couldn't do," Mr. Williams says. "And that is to destroy the black family."

(end)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704881304576094221050061598.html

[marfacowboy]

How you can know this, I have no idea. Not one.

At any rate, I would primarily rely on what I have seen and experienced on matters like this. I've seen firsthand for many years the collapse of marriage and family units. This is across the board, but especially pronounced in black families. Hopefully, we don't have to debate that fact. We don't need scholarly papers to tell us that the number of single mothers has increased dramatically since the Great Society programs.

I agree. I've seen it too.


The basics are that people must be able to eat, clothe, and house themselves. Historically, in the US, the family unit was responsible for this. When government programs began meeting these needs, stable family units began to dissolve. Surely, we can all agree that is not desirable.

Where we differ is I don't believe this is a simple "cause and effect" relationship. I think it's much more complex. But I do agree people should take care of themselves. I'll hold my "conclusion" (where I think this is headed and what can be done) until the end.


This is a good excerpt from a WSJ article by Jason Riley discussing this very topic with Walter Williams; both men are black. Williams has PhD, and is a professor of economics at George Mason University. He seems sufficiently scholarly to speak on the subject:

Even in the antebellum era, when slaves often weren't permitted to wed, most black children lived with a biological mother and father. During Reconstruction and up until the 1940s, 75% to 85% of black children lived in two-parent families. Today, more than 70% of black children are born to single women. "The welfare state has done to black Americans what slavery couldn't do, what Jim Crow couldn't do, what the harshest racism couldn't do," Mr. Williams says. "And that is to destroy the black family."

Well, he's an economist (not a sociologist or anthropologist) commenting a little out of his field. I think we've seen a general breakdown across racial boundaries, particularly when it comes to marriage. For the first time (I think) in American history, the majority of households are not married households. That's pretty profound if you think about it. And while I tend to be socially liberal, that's one thing I don't believe is good a trend. I've been married for 27 years and know for a fact it's a more stable building block for human societies.

I think as we consider solutions to the "problem", we can't do it in a vacuum where we pretend it's clear cut and all related to the rise of the welfare state. If we're not honest and open to how we got here, we'll never find the way out.

We do have a huge problem, one I really don't know how to solve. On one hand, we have this burgeoning number of people that are dependent on the state, a group of people I'm not sure can ever be totally independent. Many do have genuine needs and will find a way out eventually, but there's this scary segment I believe are destined to be on welfare their whole lives or be in prison.

Do we just cut them off? The uncomfortable truth is we have to do something in order to maintain order in society. Disorder and chaos in our communities eventually costs all of us. It's bad for business. It costs too much to maintain law and order. But it's also too expensive to keep them on the State's back ad infinitum. You can damn sure guarantee yourself their kids will repeat the process, and before you know it, the numbers increase exponentially.

I think one thing we can do is to reinstitute a period of national service for all young people. This may not be Army, Marines, etc. But it should be a period of national service, where at least some of these kids can learn some skills and possibly develop a work ethic that breaks the cycle. Our national infrastructure could use some help, and every person in this nation has a debt to their country.

Maybe adults that have been on welfare roles too long should be moved into some sort of national service.It's either that, continued course or prison.

[OU_Sooners75]

I don't see any reason for being insulting.
I grew up in the deep South. I have a degree in History, and I've read my daughter's PhD research on the subject, so I know a thing or two about it.




Southeastern Texas, primarily because of the large numbers of southerners from other states that went there after the war.



I don't deny there are freeloaders. I don't deny the government and some programs contribute the problem. But you can't deny, and have any level of intellectual integrity, the cultural and institutional aspects I previously mentioned have had a significant impact on the societal issues we see today.
Your view is way too reductive. It's a highly complex sociological issue that cannot be solved by attacking what you call "the welfare state."


No, Memphis is unique and the statistics bear that out. Memphis is a majority black city andranks first for the highest percentage of families living in poverty, at nearly one in four. Memphis is No. 1 in the nation for unwed parents, with one out of every two children in the city of Memphis being raised that way. The city ranks No. 1 for children living in poverty, No. 1 for adults living in poverty and No. 1 for births to teen mothers. It ranks No. 1 for the highest crime rate among big cities.


To a degree. But if you put a smart kid in Melrose High School, even with involved parents, he wouldn't do nearly as well or qualify for thesame schools as a kid that went to my high school.
The city schools in Memphis are awful. There are a couple of exceptions, but if you graduate from Memphis City Schools, you are at a distinct disadvantage. That's why most white parents moved their kids. It's not just parental involvement.

But I thought you were from some small town in the Oklahoma Panhandle?


Other than that...what culture differences did you bring up?

Fact is, you are free to live where you want to in this country. You are free to do as you wish (within the law and reason) in this country. You are allowed to be a loser or winner in this country.

It is up to the individual if they wish to be a lazy freeloader or a successful businessman/woman. It doesn't matter what culture a person comes to to be successful in this country. If you want it bad enough, then you work your *** off to obtain it. If you don't work your *** off for it, then you do not want it bad enough.

I am not disputing any cultural differences. Hell there is a cultural difference between us Okies and Kansans.

Doesnt separate the fact that success and atmosphere is what we chose it to be in this country.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I've lived in the Deep South for 15 years now. I don't really have a point, I'm just sayin.

[olevetonahill]

But I thought you were from some small town in the Oklahoma Panhandle?
he lives there now , he was brot up in S Texas which is prolly why hes such a dick head

[OU_Sooners75]

he lives there now , he was brot up in S Texas which is prolly why hes such a dick head

He isnt a dick head. He is just compensating for a small dick head.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

he lives there now , he was brot up in S Texas which is prolly why hes such a dick head


Uh, S Texas is not the Deep South. We have hoods and projects here, not barrios.

[olevetonahill]

Uh, S Texas is not the Deep South. We have hoods and projects here, not barrios.
Dont tell me, Hes the one saying he grew up in the "Deep South"
I dont think Marfa texas, qualifies but then according to him Im too stupid to know anything :afro:

[soonercruiser]

The government hasn't practically "destroyed black families." The reality of life for blacks, especially blacks in the American south is this. They're only essentially two generations removed from Jim Crow laws and outright discrimination. Generally speaking, blacks have only had the same opportunities as whites for less than fifty years, fifty years after slavery. And that's strictly speaking from a legal standpoint. As someone that grew up in the Deep South, I can tell you for a fact they didn't have equal opportunities in the South for many years after that.
Whites fled to the suburbs, the inner city schools collapsed, to a large degree because the best teachers left, and we all know what's happened from there. Now we have a perpetual cycle of hopelessness, worsened by the collapse of the family unit in black households. Poorly educated black women having children that will in turn be poorly educated, angry, depressed and on a road to nowhere.
I don't begin to know what the answer is other than hope and pray we can rebuild our manufacturing base and get these kids on a vocational path. That, and start passing out birth control to sixth graders in the inner city.

School vouchers! Let the free market take care of bad schools.
Far be it from me to tell the parents to suck it up and pay for a good education, like I had to when I was making that monstrous First Lt pay.

It worked so well in D.C. that the "powers to be" got it stopped!
The NEA is not for the students!

[soonercruiser]

he lives there now , he was brot up in S Texas which is prolly why hes such a dick head

I thought that "Richard" was banned?
:hypnotysed:

[marfacowboy]

But I thought you were from some small town in the Oklahoma Panhandle?

No, I have a place out there.


Doesnt separate the fact that success and atmosphere is what we chose it to be in this country.

The point I'm making is that it is easier for some people to be what they want to be than it is for others. I had a lot of friends that graduated from school knowing they had a job at this firm or that firm simply because their parents were members of the Hunt and Polo Club. Their parents could send them to a great high school. That gave them a better chance of getting into elite colleges. That degree opened doors that weren't open to other people.
Now sometimes being a black kid graduating from an inner city school is an advantage. Some schools will give that kid money simply because of a perceived social "disadvantage." I can see both sides of the story when that happens, but it's technically making a decision on race and is therefore racist. So again, it's more complex than a simple thesis and antithesis. Hegel was right. There is synthesis.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I think there was definitely a cultural change from the families I saw in the 1960's and onward. But I don't believe this is due to "government programs." There's not a single peer reviewed article with even a modicum of research that supports that premise. Not one. It's much more complex. You have to also consider the rise of black militancy, which coincided with the rise in countercultural movements in the white community. Blacks and white rebelled in the '60's against the status quo. The public educational system started to collapse. Whites left in droves and went to academies. All of these events and trends had a profound effect on where we are today.

You've go to be joking... Do you think that liberal university thinkers (i.e., Progressives) would actually blame the government for the break down of black society? You are kidding - right? I left academia long ago and never looked backed. My Ph.D. has helped me in private industry, but Universities are not the bastian of free thinking people may think they are. Universities stifle free thought and if you go against the Progressives, you are shunned.

[marfacowboy]

He isnt a dick head. He is just compensating for a small dick head.

You do a lot better when you stick to serious discussion and avoid puerile comments that 15 year old boys might make.

[marfacowboy]

You've go to be joking... Do you think that liberal university thinkers (i.e., Progressives) would actually blame the government for the break down of black society? You are kidding - right? I left academia long ago and never looked backed. My Ph.D. has helped me in private industry, but Universities are not the bastian of free thinking people may think they are. Universities stifle free thought and if you go against the Progressives, you are shunned.

There are some very conservative professors in Sociology. I had one during my undergrad years.
What was your dissertation topic? What was your field?
I guess it depends on where you went to school, because my college definitely did not stifle free thought.

[marfacowboy]

Ok, so we don't agree on how we got here, or why we're here, but we do seem to agree there is a problem. The important question is how to break the cycle. How do you take a kid from horrible home, a kid with a marginal education and with poor work ethics, and keep them off the welfare roles or out of prison?
I say national service is an option that might help. What say ye?

[cleller]

I've lived in the Deep South for 15 years now. I don't really have a point, I'm just sayin.

Not the place for this, but do you ever get up to Natchez/Woodville/Lorman/Port Gibson area in MS? Favorite area of the state.
Mr. D's fried chicken-Old Country Store in Lorman. Best in the US. Really.

Your point is without controversy, at any rate.

[champions77]

Thru welfare and Affirmative Action, the government has practically destroyed black families. The effect of those programs is children with poor discipline. The government now chooses to work on the effect, rather than the cause.

How ironic, that this Nation fought a Civil War so that slaves could be givin freedom from their "Masters", only to evolve to this, where now folks are dependents of Uncle Sam, waiting to be taken are of.

21st Century plantation. Both examples of folks not having freedom.

LBJ's Great Society, where social engineering has proven to be a collosal disaster. The biggest attack on the virtues that made this country great. Self reliance, personal responsibility, work ethic? Who needs it? 16 trillion in debt later.......

[marfacowboy]

The nation could use less of this predictable, pedantic finger pointing and more solutions. What are the solutions?

[cleller]

The nation could use less of this predictable, pedantic finger pointing and more solutions. What are the solutions?

For starters, the President of the United States spending less time pondering how the schools should administer classroom discipline, and more time pondering how to decrease reliance on the government as the solution to one's problems.

[marfacowboy]

For starters, the President of the United States spending less time pondering how the schools should administer classroom discipline, and more time pondering how to decrease reliance on the government as the solution to one's problems.

The solution is the President pondering things?
I'm more interested in what you think are solutions, not what the President should be thinking about.

[cleller]

The solution is the President pondering things?
I'm more interested in what you think are solutions, not what the President should be thinking about.

Do you not think the President should ponder such things? If the future of our nation is our children, the fact that so many of them are being conceived and reared by people who are unable to support and nurture them should surely warrant a great deal of pondering.

What I think will never be a solution, as I have no real way to influence the government, other than my vote.

Given the road we've gone down the last 50 years, its largely too late to correct the problem. The big 3 networks would pillory any decisive effort at reform. But since you ask:

Cease the policy of paying single mothers to have multiple children.
I would still advocate assistance for struggling families, on a limited and monitored basis. Single moms should know the government is not the intended provider for her children. She would be provided with info on how to obtain support from the child's father, and informed the taxpayers will be unable to support her and her family long term. Should she conceive again, additional funds will not be available. Divert those funds (previously allocated for additional kids) to orphanages, hopefully sponsored by churches.

Orphanages could provide an outlet for the high demand for children wanted for adoption into stable families. Children that are not adopted would none-the-less benefit from a more structured and positive upbringing than many of these welfare moms provide.

I do not feel orphanages are evil Charles Dickens type institutions. I've seen many children I feel would have been much happier and better cared for in an orphanage than with their birth mothers.

[marfacowboy]

Cease the policy of paying single mothers to have multiple children.

Is there a known statistical correlation between benefit levels and women's choice to have children? I thought you only got like an extra $90 per child. Why would anyone have children to get $90?
Is that the "problem," or is the problem helping people finding meaningful work?


Orphanages could provide an outlet for the high demand for children wanted for adoption into stable families. Children that are not adopted would none-the-less benefit from a more structured and positive upbringing than many of these welfare moms provide.

Are you saying we should take children from poor families and put them in orphanages in the hope they'll be adopted by more financially stable families?


I do not feel orphanages are evil Charles Dickens type institutions. I've seen many children I feel would have been much happier and better cared for in an orphanage than with their birth mothers.

Apparently you do.

[cleller]

Is there a known statistical correlation between benefit levels and women's choice to have children? I thought you only got like an extra $90 per child. Why would anyone have children to get $90?
Is that the "problem," or is the problem helping people finding meaningful work?



Are you saying we should take children from poor families and put them in orphanages in the hope they'll be adopted by more financially stable families?



Apparently you do.

You asked for for my solutions, and I gave them.

I'll repeat this very clearly. I believe families provide the optimum environment for raising children. The current system in place is not providing an acceptable schematic to raising children in single parent situations. Should that single parent continue to add children to the family, without the ability to provide for their welfare, I believe adoption and orphanages provide a higher likelihood of successfully raising children.

[marfacowboy]

You asked for for my solutions, and I gave them.

I'll repeat this very clearly. I believe families provide the optimum environment for raising children. The current system in place is not providing an acceptable schematic to raising children in single parent situations. Should that single parent continue to add children to the family, without the ability to provide for their welfare, I believe adoption and orphanages provide a higher likelihood of successfully raising children.

At what point do you step in and take the children? One year? Two years? After benefits expire? How do you decide which parents lose their children to the orphanage?

[olevetonahill]

You asked for for my solutions, and I gave them.

I'll repeat this very clearly. I believe families provide the optimum environment for raising children. The current system in place is not providing an acceptable schematic to raising children in single parent situations. Should that single parent continue to add children to the family, without the ability to provide for their welfare, I believe adoption and orphanages provide a higher likelihood of successfully raising children.
Cleller, Hes just yankin ya around, you say one thing he twists it a tad then you try to explain he twist some more , on an on he goes .**** him he's a lib dolt

[cleller]

At what point do you step in and take the children? One year? Two years? After benefits expire? How do you decide which parents lose their children to the orphanage?

As was the case in times past, the parent would be the primary decision maker in the process. When the parent realizes circumstances dictate such action, the parent would have to make that painful decision in the interest of their child. Gut wrenching as it is, it is not a new concept. In the case of our discussion, it is also avoidable. (It is my understanding that we are discussing single parent households) Should the parent prove irresponsible in that regard, the appropriate authority is already in place to step in for the welfare of the child.

I don't want any other this to come to pass. Families that raise and nurture their kids are the optimum. Bearing children you cannot care for is not responsible, and is avoidable. What we are discussing are cases where people have failed on multiple occasions to responsibly plan procreation. No one in this country is forced to bear a child against their will. It is voluntary.

[cleller]

Cleller, Hes just yankin ya around, you say one thing he twists it a tad then you try to explain he twist some more , on an on he goes .**** him he's a lib dolt

You're right, I know. Maybe its because I've had a sip or two, but I'm kinda enjoying it. At least we both are still typing in a civil fashion. I'm really a super softie, but I'm very tight fisted.
Its futile, no one will change their mind. What's on the Olympics? If I miss the Danish field hockey team for this....

[marfacowboy]

As was the case in times past, the parent would be the primary decision maker in the process. When the parent realizes circumstances dictate such action, the parent would have to make that painful decision in the interest of their child. Gut wrenching as it is, it is not a new concept. In the case of our discussion, it is also avoidable. (It is my understanding that we are discussing single parent households) Should the parent prove irresponsible in that regard, the appropriate authority is already in place to step in for the welfare of the child.

I don't want any other this to come to pass.

You really think that people who have, as you said, "failed" to responsibly plan procreation on multiple occasions, and that have enormous difficulty in making sound economic decisions are going to somehow be capable of making a sound decision on when to give up their children?
And do you really think there are enough responsible people willing to adopt what are basically ghetto children of varying ages?
I think national service and the hope of a two or three year service program has a better chance of getting someone "on track" that some Great Expectations scenario.

[marfacowboy]

You're right, I know. Maybe its because I've had a sip or two, but I'm kinda enjoying it. At least we both are still typing in a civil fashion. I'm really a super softie, but I'm very tight fisted.
Its futile, no one will change their mind. What's on the Olympics? If I miss the Danish field hockey team for this....

He's wrong. It's a worthwhile discussion.
I'm not one that believes we should just sit back and let Washington decide our fate. People can talk intelligently amongst themselves and find solutions to the problems that affect their communities.
Democracy grows from the grass roots upward and outward, not from the top down.

[cleller]

You really think that people who have, as you said, "failed" to responsibly plan procreation on multiple occasions, and that have enormous difficulty in making sound economic decisions are going to somehow be capable of making a sound decision on when to give up their children?
And do you really think there are enough responsible people willing to adopt what are basically ghetto children of varying ages?
I think national service and the hope of a two or three year service program has a better chance of getting someone "on track" that some Great Expectations scenario.

Some parents will realize they cannot provide for their kids, and make that decision. That's historically proven. Others would fail in that area, and ultimately the gov would be forced into action, also historically factual.

People line up and plead to adopt what you call "ghetto children" all the time. If not, the orphanage could provide a stable rearing the "ghetto" parent could not.

Your national service plan also sounds like a fine plan. Anything is better than idle, uneducated, unmotivated parents.

I never said my suggestions were the perfect solution. I just feel the current situation is not working, and is a danger to our civilization. Other options need to be explored.

Do we have to go thru what is happening in Greece right now before people understand that giving away money you don't have cannot go on forever? Are you willing to borrow money from the Chinese to give to people to raise their children? Willing to take money from your own family, delay retirement, cancel your insurance, etc to pay for the irresponsibility of others?

[BigTip]

You've go to be joking... Do you think that liberal university thinkers (i.e., Progressives) would actually blame the government for the break down of black society? You are kidding - right? I left academia long ago and never looked backed. My Ph.D. has helped me in private industry, but Universities are not the bastian of free thinking people may think they are. Universities stifle free thought and if you go against the Progressives, you are shunned.

So so true. How many times were there protests at your university when a controversial conservative speaker was scheduled, or the CIA or armed forces came to recruit, or anything that didn't fit "the mold" of the Progressive? I know it happened multiple times at my university. And I am not just talking student protests either. A lot of the profs would all go public with their indignation at whoever was the scorned person of the week.

[OU_Sooners75]

Here is something to ponder...even for obama...
Education should be ran by the states not the federal government.

[marfacowboy]

I never said my suggestions were the perfect solution. I just feel the current situation is not working, and is a danger to our civilization. Other options need to be explored.

I understand. We're just "drilling down" and getting options on the table and examining potential issues with every solution. No solution is perfect.
But what we're doing is what our political leaders should be doing. Putting ideas on the table, discussing them, perhaps not always agreeing, but starting a dialog on how to fix things.


Do we have to go thru what is happening in Greece right now before people understand that giving away money you don't have cannot go on forever? Are you willing to borrow money from the Chinese to give to people to raise their children? Willing to take money from your own family, delay retirement, cancel your insurance, etc to pay for the irresponsibility of others?

Well, we've actually not borrowed that much from the Chinese, and if you can borrow at low interest rates in times of recession, it's generally considered a sound measure.
The reason we can't solve anything is our country and its two primary factions are like a couple nearing a divorce. The marriage counselor can't get anywhere, because there's nothing but finger pointing and stalemates. Neither side is willing to budge. Both sides point the finger at the other, and neither side will ever give the other one credit for a single positive thing in marriage. And when there's no dialog, you can almost guarantee a divorce is coming.
You and I are probably pretty far apart on political matters. But in just this discussion, which was civil and interesting, we did find some common ground. To get the country moving, we need some bi-partisan initiatives that demonstrate to the country (its citizens, investors, business and people that have "given up") that we can come together and get the country moving.
The childish, counterproductive bull**** has to stop.

[olevetonahill]

Well, we've actually not borrowed that much from the Chinese, and if you can borrow at low interest rates in times of recession, it's generally considered a sound measure.

Please, you are saying that even though you have More debt than you can possibly pay back that its a wise move to Borrow MORE?That makes no sense whatever.
as for the Chinese, well here
http://0.tqn.com/d/create/1/5/0/x/C/-/Great-Wallet-of-China.jpg

[marfacowboy]

Please, you are saying that even though you have More debt than you can possibly pay back that its a wise move to Borrow MORE?That makes no sense whatever.


Economists with PhD's, even one that won the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, say "yes." Governments borrowing and government debt are not the same as personal borrowing or debt. Governments can improve their creditworthiness by borrowing more, not less,and investing to improve their future fiscal position.
We have the lowest rates in history, and as Krugman points out, "if you don't have enough liquidity sloshing around, the whole thing just falls apart."
It's a major difference between how Republicans and Democrats (at least some) approach recession/depression period economics.

[olevetonahill]

What ever, Debt is ****in Debt, Its NOT smart to keep borrowing, When you already owe more than you take in.
Oh you owe 10k on that Old car thats worth 5k No Problem Just sign right here and we will have you in this new ride .

You and your PHDs are what have this country in the ****ter in the 1st place, The US Dollar used to be the strongest currency in the world. Now even the Australians have out paced us

[TheHumanAlphabet]

There are some very conservative professors in Sociology. I had one during my undergrad years.
What was your dissertation topic? What was your field?
I guess it depends on where you went to school, because my college definitely did not stifle free thought.

Engineering, "Repeatability of Subjects in a Laboratory Simulated Task", Univ. of Oklahoma.

[marfacowboy]

You and your PHDs are what have this country in the ****ter in the 1st place, The US Dollar used to be the strongest currency in the world. Now even the Australians have out paced us

Not me. I pay a boatload in taxes. I've probably paid a decent share of at least one drone.

[olevetonahill]

Not me. I pay a boatload in taxes. I've probably paid a decent share of at least one drone.

I dont GAF how much you say You've paid in taxes, Thats not the subject here Einstein, The Subject in case you forgot , Is Inner city kids and Government debt

[marfacowboy]

I dont GAF how much you say You've paid in taxes, Thats not the subject here Einstein, The Subject in case you forgot , Is Inner city kids and Government debt

Oh yeah. And I never got an answer to a question I asked about that subject. What's the average monthly benefit one of these so-called "welfare queens" gets for each additional kid?
I'd be willing to guess the government historically has spent more on corporate welfare (subsidies) than it has on individual welfare, maybe as much as 50% more. I reckon we should end that, too.
Why are we giving $110 billion dollars to the oil, gas, and coal industries over the next decade, when the five largest oil companies made over $1 trillion in profits over the last decade?
And what is welfare as a percentage of the overall budget?

[olevetonahill]

Oh yeah. And I never got an answer to a question I asked about that subject. What's the average monthly benefit one of these so-called "welfare queens" gets for each additional kid?
I'd be willing to guess the government spends more on corporate welfare (subsidies) than it does on individual welfare, maybe as much as 50% more. I reckon we should end that, too.
And what is welfare as a percentage of the overall budget? I bet it's somewhere between three and four percent.

Ask yer daughters, How in hell would I know?
Yup yer a Lib , whats a few Billion between friends .

[LiveLaughLove]

I dont GAF how much you say You've paid in taxes, Thats not the subject here Einstein, The Subject in case you forgot , Is Inner city kids and Government debt

And the fact that Obama is sticking his nose into local issues and ordering quotas, and yes they are quotas.

[marfacowboy]

I guess all you need to know is Obama is bad, and he's trying to turn us into a nation of freeloading socialists and Muslims. Republicans, on the other hand, represent the American ideal. Self responsibility, hard work, not spending more than you make. Christian values. Strong defense (although the United States hasn't been attacked by a foreign military since the War of 1812...discounting some balloons the Germans floated around the northwest Pacific coast).
Right?

[olevetonahill]

I guess all you need to know is Obama is bad, and he's trying to turn us into a nation of freeloading socialists and Muslims. Republicans, on the other hand, represent the American ideal. Self responsibility, hard work, not spending more than you make. Christian values. Strong defense (although the United States hasn't been attacked by a foreign military since the War of 1812...discounting some balloons the Germans floated around the northwest Pacific coast).
Right?
http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/128900338166636220.jpg

[Position Limit]

i think live laugh love should change his handle to BitterAngryLoathing. are you gonna jump off a bridge when obama gets reelected?

[olevetonahill]

i think live laugh love should change his handle to BitterAngryLoathing. are you gonna jump off a bridge when obama gets reelected?
Naw we got a deal, Him an I gonna find all you idiots that voted for him and PUSH YOU off the bridge

[Position Limit]

Naw we got a deal, Him an I gonna find all you idiots that voted for him and PUSH YOU off the bridge

lol. please pick the bridge

[olevetonahill]

lol. please pick the bridge

Be skeered, Be very skeered
http://www.ourecho.com/users/890/5797/1t.jpg

[LiveLaughLove]

i think live laugh love should change his handle to BitterAngryLoathing. are you gonna jump off a bridge when obama gets reelected?

For the one thousandth time, the name IS a joke between my wife and I. However the bitterangryloathing fits you much more there PL.

Welcome back, btw.

As for the live part, I'm doing quite well by it. I laugh at lib crap on an almost minute to minute basis. And I love to tick you off, and I love my family enough to try and fight for a better America to leave them than what you guys are trying to hand them.

[LiveLaughLove]

Naw we got a deal, Him an I gonna find all you idiots that voted for him and PUSH YOU off the bridge

LOL, that's some good stuf right there.

See PL, I'm laughing again.

[olevetonahill]

LOL, that's some good stuf right there.

See PL, I'm laughing again.
Ya know the best Bait to use when fishin fer Libs?

[olevetonahill]

LLL Im a waitin on ya to ax me :glee:

[LiveLaughLove]

LLL Im a waitin on ya to ax me :glee:

woops, sorry was dozing off.

So, Olevet, what IS the best bait to use while fishing for a lib? hmm?

[olevetonahill]

woops, sorry was dozing off.

So, Olevet, what IS the best bait to use while fishing for a lib? hmm?
Ya use Stink bait fer Catfish. On Libs ya Use
Silly Putty of course

[LiveLaughLove]

Ya use Stink bait fer Catfish. On Libs ya Use
Silly Putty of course

BaDaBing! LOL

[olevetonahill]

BaDaBing! LOL
Dint say it were gonna be a Good Joke :loyal:

[soonercruiser]

Economists with PhD's, even one that won the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, say "yes." Governments borrowing and government debt are not the same as personal borrowing or debt. Governments can improve their creditworthiness by borrowing more, not less,and investing to improve their future fiscal position.
We have the lowest rates in history, and as Krugman points out, "if you don't have enough liquidity sloshing around, the whole thing just falls apart."
It's a major difference between how Republicans and Democrats (at least some) approach recession/depression period economics.

Krugman!!!!???
How's the Keneysian economics working out?

[XingTheRubicon]

I guess all you need to know is Obama is bad, and he's trying to turn us into a nation of freeloading socialists and Muslims. Republicans, on the other hand, represent the American ideal. Self responsibility, hard work, not spending more than you make. Christian values. Strong defense (although the United States hasn't been attacked by a foreign military since the War of 1812...discounting some balloons the Germans floated around the northwest Pacific coast).
Right?

So Obama wasn't born in the United States.

I knew it.

[XingTheRubicon]

hint: 1941

[marfacowboy]

hint: 1941

And your point is what, exactly?

[XingTheRubicon]

Is Hawaii part of the United States?

[marfacowboy]

Is Hawaii part of the United States?

Nope. That's why I italicized "States." Hawaii was a territory not a state. A territory that was essentially taken from its indigenous people largely at the behest of the Dole Pineapple Co.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Here is something to ponder...even for obama...
Education should be ran by the states not the federal government.


Was Dubya your teacher?

[XingTheRubicon]

Nope. That's why I italicized "States." Hawaii was a territory not a state. A territory that was essentially taken from its indigenous people largely at the behest of the Dole Pineapple Co.

I figured that might be why "states" was italicized but your point is still idiotic.


There's a reason foreign militaries never set foot on American soil. Best of luck to you figuring out why.

[marfacowboy]

I figured that might be why "states" was italicized but your point is still idiotic.


There's a reason foreign militaries never set foot on American soil. Best of luck to you figuring out why.

Funny how you guys always walk right into the trap. LOL
It's a point made by perhaps the most important public intellectual of our time, so it's hardly idiotic.
No military power is going to attack us on our soil, and the reason is our military. But is it really necessary to spend over $700 billion annually? We could spend $300 billion less , and we would still dwarf the spending and power of other nations.
The problem, of course, is the economy is dependent on military spending. It's basically another form of corporate welfare.

[cleller]

Funny how you guys always walk right into the trap. LOL
It's a point made by perhaps the most important public intellectual of our time, so it's hardly idiotic.
No military power is going to attack us on our soil, and the reason is our military.

You're the one denying the US was attacked during WWII, and now claim someone else walked into a trap? You'd have been a very popular guy during WWII, but I guess we'd have never got involved if we were sane.

Also, the Japanese did make one bombing attack on the West Coast during the war, from a submarine launched airplane. It was also the Japanese that launched the balloon carried bombs, not the Germans. 9,300 of them, 300 hitting North America. Six Americans were killed in those non-attacks.

[okie52]

Funny how you guys always walk right into the trap. LOL
It's a point made by perhaps the most important public intellectual of our time, so it's hardly idiotic.
No military power is going to attack us on our soil, and the reason is our military. But is it really necessary to spend over $700 billion annually? We could spend $300 billion less , and we would still dwarf the spending and power of other nations.
The problem, of course, is the economy is dependent on military spending. It's basically another form of corporate welfare.

We've got 12,000,000 invaders here that don't seem too afraid of our military.

[marfacowboy]

You're the one denying the US was attacked during WWII, and now claim someone else walked into a trap? You'd have been a very popular guy during WWII, but I guess we'd have never got involved if we were sane.

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


Also, the Japanese did make one bombing attack on the West Coast during the war, from a submarine launched airplane. It was also the Japanese that launched the balloon carried bombs, not the Germans. 9,300 of them, 300 hitting North America. Six Americans were killed in those non-attacks.

I meant the Japs, but typed too quickly and didn't proof read. You're correct. The point, however, stands. And that point is that we're under no danger of being attacked, at least by a serious attack. You know it, and I know it.

[marfacowboy]

We've got 12,000,000 invaders here that don't seem too afraid of our military.

Who are these 12,000,000 invaders?

[cleller]

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.



I meant the Japs, but typed too quickly and didn't proof read. You're correct. The point, however, stands. And that point is that we're under no danger of being attacked, at least by a serious attack. You know it, and I know it.

My point was that for someone to take a position as outlandish as saying the United States was not really attacked by the Japanese at Peal Harbor-- then to claim you've intellectually trapped someone-- is a little absurd.

Its like your claiming the US mainland was never attacked. It was-but not REALLY in your opinion, right? That contradicts the idea that although Pearl Harbor was a US base, on US Territory, the US wasn't REALLY attacked.

[okie52]

Who are these 12,000,000 invaders?

You don't know? They've so intimidated our police, military, congress and president that we even give them benefits, healthcare and educate their children.

[olevetonahill]

You don't know? They've so intimidated our police, military, congress and president that we even give them benefits, healthcare and educate their children.
I think jaun smuggled about 1/2 of em here in his Mini van

[okie52]

I think jaun smuggled about 1/2 of em here in his Mini van

Heh...I think you are right. He even set up a school for them.

[soonercruiser]

Funny how you guys always walk right into the trap. LOL
It's a point made by perhaps the most important public intellectual of our time, so it's hardly idiotic.
No military power is going to attack us on our soil, and the reason is our military. But is it really necessary to spend over $700 billion annually? We could spend $300 billion less , and we would still dwarf the spending and power of other nations.
The problem, of course, is the economy is dependent on military spending. It's basically another form of corporate welfare.

Trap!!????
So you sayin' we should only spend $400 Billion and fight on our own soil???
:numbness:

I guess you think that 9-11 will never happen again?

[marfacowboy]

My point was that for someone to take a position as outlandish as saying the United States was not really attacked by the Japanese at Peal Harbor-- then to claim you've intellectually trapped someone-- is a little absurd.

Its like your claiming the US mainland was never attacked. It was-but not REALLY in your opinion, right? That contradicts the idea that although Pearl Harbor was a US base, on US Territory, the US wasn't REALLY attacked.

It's not absurd at all. The United States mainland has not been attacked by a foreign military, at least in any significant way. We're not threatened by other militaries.
As for terrorism, this is primarily an intelligence and surgical strike endeavor. It's not necessary to spend more than the next 12 to 14 (whatever it is now) countries combined in order to have a strong defense.

[marfacowboy]

You don't know? They've so intimidated our police, military, congress and president that we even give them benefits, healthcare and educate their children.

Oh, you're referring to Spanish speaking people, who incidentally were here before anglos. Then anglos showed up (illegally, I guess) andtook the land from the indigenous inhabitants via conquest and a state sponsored program of cultural genocide.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

You don't know? They've so intimidated our police, military, congress and president that we even give them benefits, healthcare and educate their children.

Are there that many lobbyists in Washington?

[pphilfran]

Oh, you're referring to Spanish speaking people, who incidentally were here before anglos. Then anglos showed up (illegally, I guess) andtook the land from the indigenous inhabitants via conquest and a state sponsored program of cultural genocide.

Actually, I think the first folks in North America walked across the Bering straight when it froze up round 50000 years ago...

[marfacowboy]

Actually, I think the first folks in North America walked across the Bering straight when it froze up round 50000 years ago...

I never said Spanish speaking people were the first here. I said they were here before Anglos.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Actually, I think the first folks in North America walked across the Bering straight when it froze up round 50000 years ago...

There is research to show that the first Americans could be Europeans and the sailed/walked along the glacier edge. Tools are being discovered in Virginia and the area that date older than the Clovis people.

[okie52]

Oh, you're referring to Spanish speaking people, who incidentally were here before anglos. Then anglos showed up (illegally, I guess) andtook the land from the indigenous inhabitants via conquest and a state sponsored program of cultural genocide.

Ahh, the old white man conqueror guilt trip.

Well yes I am referring to primarily Spanish speaking (and usually can only speak Spanish) invaders. So you think this land belongs to them or that we "owe" it to them?

[LiveLaughLove]

I'm just curious, what is the statute of limitations on a land grab from indigenous peoples?

Being 1/4 American Indian, I have been struck by the curiosity that somehow California, New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, et al is Mexican land stolen from them. But not, Indian land stolen from them by the Mexicans.

The statute of limitations must be somewhere between forever and a few hundred years, I'm guessing.

[okie52]

I'm just curious, what is the statute of limitations on a land grab from indigenous peoples?

Being 1/4 American Indian, I have been struck by the curiosity that somehow California, New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, et al is Mexican land stolen from them. But not, Indian land stolen from them by the Mexicans.

The statute of limitations must be somewhere between forever and a few hundred years, I'm guessing.

There are some pretty pizzed off neanderthals and chro magnons.

[pphilfran]

There is research to show that the first Americans could be Europeans and the sailed/walked along the glacier edge. Tools are being discovered in Virginia and the area that date older than the Clovis people.

Chit...all my skooling just went up in flames...

[olevetonahill]

There are some pretty pizzed off neanderthals and chro magnons.
Well from what the Lefties all think of ME. Yall best be gettin off MY LAND

[LiveLaughLove]

Well from what the Lefties all think of ME. Yall best be gettin off MY LAND

hehe

[okie52]

Well from what the Lefties all think of ME. Yall best be gettin off MY LAND

Heh heh....:beaten:

I can tell you are really upset.

[marfacowboy]

Ahh, the old white man conqueror guilt trip.

Well yes I am referring to primarily Spanish speaking (and usually can only speak Spanish) invaders. So you think this land belongs to them or that we "owe" it to them?

No, I don't think that at all. The point is everyone wants to be the last ****ing immigrant. People have been coming to this continent for thousands of years, so for us to think we can somehow get here and literally build a fence and claim it strikes me as peculiar.
Can you blame these people for wanting to escape that hell hole? You'd do the same damn thing. It's an awful situation, and I think we have too many people here already. But I don't have the heart to turn people away. I'll leave that you to hard asses.

[olevetonahill]

No, I don't think that at all. The point is everyone wants to be the last ****ing immigrant. People have been coming to this continent for thousands of years, so for us to think we can somehow get here and literally build a fence and claim it strikes me as peculiar.
Can you blame these people for wanting to escape that hell hole? You'd do the same damn thing. It's an awful situation, and I think we have too many people here already. But I don't have the balls to turn people away. I'll leave that you to Real Men.
FTFY :beaten:

Now as to the folks coming here then Pushing the existing ones out the way, Dont ya think the Injuns would have things different at Plymouth Rock if they had only known?

[marfacowboy]

FTFY :beaten:

Now as to the folks coming here then Pushing the existing ones out the way, Dont ya think the Injuns would have things different at Plymouth Rock if they had only known?

They should have killed every settler.

[olevetonahill]

They should have killed every settler.
So yer sayin we should Kill every Mexican that trys to sneak In?
Dayum You might grow a set yet

[marfacowboy]

So yer sayin we should Kill every Mexican that trys to sneak In?
Dayum You might grow a set yet

Mexicans aren't trying to overthrow our system. Most are hard working and are trying to exist within our system. They're not rounding up white people and putting them in reservations.
What do you want, armed guards on the border with shoot to kill orders?

[okie52]

No, I don't think that at all. The point is everyone wants to be the last ****ing immigrant. People have been coming to this continent for thousands of years, so for us to think we can somehow get here and literally build a fence and claim it strikes me as peculiar.
Can you blame these people for wanting to escape that hell hole? You'd do the same damn thing. It's an awful situation, and I think we have too many people here already. But I don't have the heart to turn people away. I'll leave that you to hard asses.

Oh I think 240 years has pretty well established our "country". Building a fence to keep people out is a lot better than building one to keep people in. We legally allow 5-600,000 immigrants every year although they are much more diverse, skilled, educated, English speaking variety than the 12,000,000 invaders.

Nobody is blaming the illegals for wanting to escape their he11hole but that doesn't entitle them to be here or for us to lose all sanity and grant these nomadic invaders citizenship or some benefit provided haven.

I don't have a problem telling the ones that are already here to get the *uck out and I certainly don't have a problem telling the others that might want to "illegally" come here to stay the *uck away.

Do you feel bad for the illegals when they are demanding their rights?

[okie52]

Mexicans aren't trying to overthrow our system. Most are hard working and are trying to exist within our system. They're not rounding up white people and putting them in reservations.
What do you want, armed guards on the border with shoot to kill orders?

Troops are quite expensive. Go with landmines where ever possible.

[olevetonahill]

Mexicans aren't trying to overthrow our system. Most are hard working and are trying to exist within our system. They're not rounding up white people and putting them in reservations.
What do you want, armed guards on the border with shoot to kill orders?
You the one that started the Kill all the settlers deal
Sure the messicans aint trying to round us all up yet, they aint enough of em and we still got our Guns, No thanks to you.

[pphilfran]

Mexicans aren't trying to overthrow our system. Most are hard working and are trying to exist within our system. They're not rounding up white people and putting them in reservations.
What do you want, armed guards on the border with shoot to kill orders?

Open up your backyard and let em pitch tents...

[marfacowboy]

I don't have the answer to the immigration question. I feel badly for them, but I know we can't just open the borders. There's too many people here already. It drives me crazy.
I just think we need some balance, considering relevant history as well as present realities.
Mother Nature has a way of thinning the herd, regardless. We're probably overdue for some bacterial or viral pestilence that will free up some living space. Drought is already playing a role.
You should speak to some of the old time locals down in border towns like Marfa and Terlingua and see how they feel about Mexican immigration. It's a lot different that what you hear in Oklahoma.

[marfacowboy]

Open up your backyard and let em pitch tents...

I've hired them and rented to them. I had a great guy take care of my place. Dependable and grateful.

[cleller]

You the one that started the Kill all the settlers deal
Sure the messicans aint trying to round us all up yet, they aint enough of em and we still got our Guns, No thanks to you.

Mexicans sure look like they are trying to "settle" within our borders. What's the best way to treat settlers again?

People have been killing people and taking over there lands since time began. It seems its only unforgivable when it comes to a certain group of people coming to a certain part of North America at a certain time.

Its not too late to right these wrongs. You can still deed over all your belongings to some native tribe, who incidentally came to North America uninvited and stole it from the saber toothed tigers or something.

[okie52]

I don't have the answer to the immigration question. I feel badly for them, but I know we can't just open the borders. There's too many people here already. It drives me crazy.
I just think we need some balance, considering relevant history as well as present realities.
Mother Nature has a way of thinning the herd, regardless. We're probably overdue for some bacterial or viral pestilence that will free up some living space. Drought is already playing a role.
You should speak to some of the old time locals down in border towns like Marfa and Terlingua and see how they feel about Mexican immigration. It's a lot different that what you hear in Oklahoma.

Are these English speaking old time border locals?

Probably a lot different than what you hear in Houston or Dallas. San Antonio, on the hand, is probably already a lost cause.

[marfacowboy]

People have been killing people and taking over there lands since time began. It seems its only unforgivable when it comes to a certain group of people coming to a certain part of North America at a certain time.

So, the fact that conquest is so widespread makes it ok?


Its not too late to right these wrongs. You can still deed over all your belongings to some native tribe, who incidentally came to North America uninvited and stole it from the saber toothed tigers or something.

Everything I own insofar as real property is concerned goes to a conservancy and trust. I am giving it away.

[marfacowboy]

Are these English speaking old time border locals?

Probably a lot different than what you hear in Houston or Dallas. San Antonio, on the hand, is probably already a lost cause.

Probably is different in Houston. But the guys I hang out with have been in favor of free movement, back and forth across the Rio Grande, for a long, long time. It's the Border Patrol that pisses them off.

[okie52]

Probably is different in Houston. But the guys I hang out with have been in favor of free movement, back and forth across the Rio Grande, for a long, long time. It's the Border Patrol that pisses them off.

Well maybe these old timers are remembering when they were just visiting...not staying.

[olevetonahill]

I've hired them and rented to them. I had a great guy take care of my place. Dependable and grateful.

So then you admit to breaking the Law ?
Like I said ya might grow a pair yet

[LiveLaughLove]

They should have killed every settler.

Nah, they would have just come back with an Army and wiped us out even quicker.

The genie was out of that bottle already. Talks of gold, and the seemingly un-limitless resources here had already created a fever in Europe that wasn't going to be abated.

You see, where my side goofed, was this quasi-communist society we had here before the whites came. There was no need for innovation or growth as a culture. So we were basically stone age in a modern world.

My grandpa used to have a sign on his wall that said something to this affect...

"When the white man came to this land, Indians were running it.
There were no taxes!
There was no debt!
There were plenty of Buffalo.
There were plenty of Beaver.
Women did all the work.
Men spent all day hunting and fishing.
Only the white man is dumb enough to think he could improve on a system like that."

It's funny and sort of true, but society didn't advance through it either, and war was a constant way of life.

[pphilfran]

I've hired them and rented to them. I had a great guy take care of my place. Dependable and grateful.

you don't think that there were legal citizens that would have been dependable and grateful?

Was there a chance that you denied a legal citizen an opportunity?

[LiveLaughLove]

you don't think that there were legal citizens that would have been dependable and grateful?

Was there a chance that you denied a legal citizen an opportunity?

He knew that. He was trying to wreck Obama's economic recovery. He's a heartless rightie birther in disguise.

[marfacowboy]

Nah, they would have just come back with an Army and wiped us out even quicker.

The genie was out of that bottle already. Talks of gold, and the seemingly un-limitless resources here had already created a fever in Europe that wasn't going to be abated.

You see, where my side goofed, was this quasi-communist society we had here before the whites came. There was no need for innovation or growth as a culture. So we were basically stone age in a modern world.



I did part of my thesis on this subject. It was actually more anarchistic, but there were major differences between groups. The Comanche, for example, actually initially welcomed some western settlement. They were interested in trade with whites and even a form of capitalism.
Ironically, what really lead directly to the decline of what was one of the greatest empires in this hemisphere was an environmental management mistake by the Comanche.

[marfacowboy]

you don't think that there were legal citizens that would have been dependable and grateful?

Was there a chance that you denied a legal citizen an opportunity?

None of those kids wanted a job babysitting a piece of property. They wanted to go to community college or work at McDonald's. The only white people interested were retirees that frankly couldn't do the work. The guy I finally hired was in fact legal, but I'm sure most of his friends weren't.
No one wants to be up there now. The drought is awful. Everyone is selling their stock and hunkering down. Not much to do but watch the grass grow, and there's no grass growing.