Monday poll: Penn State penalties

[badger]

Gimme your thoughts. Three days of anonymous voting. You can vote for more than one, but you cannot change your vote once cast.

[olevetonahill]

I just voted the Good riddance one

The penalties coulda been harsher for all I care

[cccasooner2]

I can live without a PSU football program forever.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

Any coincidence that three of the biggest a-hole arrogant self-important programs in college football all chant "We Are... (Penn State, Texas, SC)!"

Two outta three down. Third's a charm.

[marfacowboy]

I think if they had any sense or decency (and they don't), they'd voluntarily stop football for the 2012 season and accept whatever penalties were handed down to them. It's clear there was widespread wrongdoing at every level-it was systemic-and for a long period. They're awful. Good riddance.

[KantoSooner]

I'm good with the penalties (as are two of three PSU fans I'm friends with) in general, but what is this thing of vacating wins? That's just meaningless BS. Do we suddently become the national champ because USC was cheating? No. The only impact this has is on making Paterno out of the top ten in coaching wonderfulness. Big whoop and pretty petty. If you wanted 'more', you should have just tagged them some addtional schollies.

[Jacie]

. . . but what is this thing of vacating wins? That's just meaningless BS.

Well, it used to be a big deal to be proclaimed the winningest FBS coach and it appears the person who previously held that distinction is now only the fifth winningest coach . . .

[Widescreen]

I'm good with the penalties (as are two of three PSU fans I'm friends with) in general, but what is this thing of vacating wins? That's just meaningless BS.
I pretty much agree with this. What happened didn't really give PSU a competitive advantage so removing wins seems a little arbitrary to me. Otherwise I think the penalties are fine.

[BlackwellSooner]

I'm mostly OK with the penalties (I would have liked to have seen the NCAA hit Penn State with a multi-year TV ban, also, except that that would have penalized those other programs that had Penn State on their schedule).
And I think that it would have been far better for Penn State to self-impose penalties rather than the NCAA imposing these sanctions. I'm afraid that the effect of these penalties will only result in Penn State and their fans going into a "Us against the World" bunker mentality, because it appears that there is no real remorse in Happy Valley, other than the remorse of being punished.

It would appear than MANY of their fans still don't GET IT. They still deify JoePa, and persist in making him a martyr, on account of the removal of his statue.

But since Penn State was obviously not going to do the right thing and self-impose penalties and try to clean up their mess, I'm glad that the NCAA laid the hammer down (kind of) on Penn State. The scholarship reductions WILL hurt them, and likely will bump the Nittany Lions down a few notches in the football hierarchy...

[Sooner in Tampa]

This has killed Penn State football for 15 years.

The NCAA hypocrisy is showing again.

Emmert doesn't want a win at all cost mentality...well a $3 Billion dollar televison will to that to programs.

[PalmBeachSooner]

I do feel bad for the players. They have to be asking themselves WTF? At least they can transfer without any restrictions. I wonder what would happen if they tried to transfer to USC? Theoretically they could since their scholarship wouldn't count against the scholarship total of the team they transfer too. Therefore, USC could add 8-9 players to their roster and overcome their own scholarship limitations. I'm sure the NCAA wouldn't let that happen, but shouldn't the PSU player be able to go where they want?

[rock on sooner]

Whether or not Penn St is down for fifteen years or less (see USC) depends on how many
of the current players bolt for other schools for meaningful PT, tv, bowls, etc. If the current
squad stays and PSU can win 8-9 games a year for the four year bowl ban then they'll be
back as a force in year five. Lots of If's but I look at USC and just shake my head at how
quickly they came back.

[badger]

Lots of If's but I look at USC and just shake my head at how
quickly they came back.

A lot remains to be seen. Oregon quacked outta nowhere to lead the Pac 12 while SC fought the NCAA on. Stanford had three Heisman runner-up seasons (two Luck, one Gerhart), the state of Arizona did the coaching shuffle, the LA monopoly on football is sooo over for Slick Rick, Washington went 0-fer, and Wazzu got Pirate Mikey.

Seriously... Pirate Mikey is going to mess with those Pac'ers endlessly. Can't wait :)

[rock on sooner]

USC kept most of their studs and signed the cream of the recruiting
crop even with fewer schollies. True, there was a lot going on in
the PAC 12! Yeah, Leach will spread 'em out, ride 'em hard and
put 'em away wet, all while wavin' the Jolly Roger!

[rock on sooner]

USC kept most of their studs and signed the cream of the recruiting
crop even with fewer schollies. True, there was a lot going on in
the PAC 12! Yeah, Leach will spread 'em out, ride 'em hard and
put 'em away wet, all while wavin' the Jolly Roger!

[rock on sooner]

Oops, double post, sorry....

[sooneron]

Whether or not Penn St is down for fifteen years or less (see USC) depends on how many
of the current players bolt for other schools for meaningful PT, tv, bowls, etc. If the current
squad stays and PSU can win 8-9 games a year for the four year bowl ban then they'll be
back as a force in year five. Lots of If's but I look at USC and just shake my head at how
quickly they came back.

I think that you have to look at the talent that the two schools draw from. PSU has had 3 "good" seasons in the last ten years.
02- 9-4
03- 3-9
04- 4-7 (They really should have let JP go at this point...)
05- 11-1 (Big ten was horrible that year) Regardless, good season.
06 - 9-4
07- 9-4
08- 11-2
09- 11-2
10 - 7-6
11 - 9-4
USuC has had way more talent for a decade now. Starting in 03, they were stockpiling 4&5 stars, when the hammer came down, they still had studs and a lot of them stayed. They can lure the playaz in with the campus/weather and being in the spotlight.
Let's look at recruiting ranks the last few years (as per rivals)-
09 - PSU- 24th , sc - 4th
10- PSU - 12th, sc -1st
11- PSU- 35th, sc- 4th
12- PSU- 51st, sc - 8th

Bear in mind that sc went on probation in the summer of 2010, so they remained in the top ten even after that. Recruiting speed athletes to Happy Valley has been a very difficult thing to do in the past 15 years.

I don't think their program will recover from this for at least ten years or so...
As to the poll, the only thing that I found issue was the bowl ban. I think they should have worked it out that if they made a bowl (pretty much a miracle now) the players should get to enjoy that. Take the Payout and give it to a charity and make the school pay for the trip. Every coach that I have ever heard talk about a bowl game (that wasn't a championship game) said that it was really for the players. There's no need not to reward them if they somehow pull out 7 wins.

[ashley]

Too many innocent peole are being punished.

[badger]

04- 4-7 (They really should have let JP go at this point...)

They tried. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/sports/ncaafootball/-joe-paterno-and-graham-spanier-out-at-penn-state.html?pagewanted=all)


In 2004, Mr. Spanier, Mr. Curley and select board members twice went to his house in efforts to get him to retire. Mr. Paterno declined, and the moment was looked at in the narrative of Paterno’s career as an instance of his overcoming adversity.

And by "Paterno declined," it was basically "eff off, I own and operate this school."

[vtsooner21]

ok....I'm trying to discern what made SMU's infractions that much worse than child sexual abuse. In light of the two transgressions, is PSU's not as heinous as SMU's? Help me out here; did SMU thumb their noses at the NCAA until there had to be a very strong reaction, as opposed to a cover up or the pretension that no one would ever find out (as in PSU's case?) I ask you, what was more flagrant? I'm not trying to jump on the witch burning thing here, but I'm not certain why Penn State did not warrant the death penalty. As a side bar, the present players and new recruits should be allowed transfer privileges. They should not be made to suffer the consequences.
Boomer

[sooneron]

ok....I'm trying to discern what made SMU's infractions that much worse than child sexual abuse. In light of the two transgressions, is PSU's not as heinous as SMU's? Help me out here; did SMU thumb their noses at the NCAA until there had to be a very strong reaction, as opposed to a cover up or the pretension that no one would ever find out (as in PSU's case?) I ask you, what was more flagrant? I'm not trying to jump on the witch burning thing here, but I'm not certain why Penn State did not warrant the death penalty. As a side bar, the present players and new recruits should be allowed transfer privileges. They should not be made to suffer the consequences.
Boomer

They have basically given psu the death penalty with this punishment. The ncaa has stated that it would probably never again issue the death penalty.

[vtsooner21]

Thanks, sooneron for clearing that up. I was just a bit confused as to what determined the once-known "death penalty" and wondering which school deserved it more in light of what took place in each case. I know that there was quite an outpouring of those calling for the death penalty to be levied against PSU Thanks again.
Boomer

[rock on sooner]

Thanks, sooneron for clearing that up. I was just a bit confused as to what determined the once-known "death penalty" and wondering which school deserved it more in light of what took place in each case. I know that there was quite an outpouring of those calling for the death penalty to be levied against PSU Thanks again.
Boomer

What SMU did was to continue doing the booster payola stuff
AFTER they'd been warned by the NCAA. Basically, SMU thumbing
their collective noses at the NCAA so the NCAA "killed" them.

[Landthief 1972]

Whether or not Penn St is down for fifteen years or less (see USC) depends on how many
of the current players bolt for other schools for meaningful PT, tv, bowls, etc. If the current
squad stays and PSU can win 8-9 games a year for the four year bowl ban then they'll be
back as a force in year five. Lots of If's but I look at USC and just shake my head at how
quickly they came back.

USC is recruiting in California with beaches, celebrities at practices, etc. Penn State has...snow? Redesigned showers in the locker room? I got nuthin'.

[marfacowboy]

Penn State isn't appealing or fighting the penalty, so if they're accepting it, I don't see the problem. Of course, they're not really in a position to protest much of anything, but I figure they know more than we do about it, and they probably know just how bad it really is.

NCAA bylaws are pretty clear:

THE PRINCIPLE OF SPORTSMANSHIP AND ETHICAL CONDUCT (NCAA Bylaw 2.4)
For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education, and to promote civility in society, studentathletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty, and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation but
also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to:
-Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the educational mission and goals of the institution.
-Educate, on a continuing basis, all constituencies about the policies in 2.4-(a).

Penn State failed, in perhaps the most egregious manner possible, to conduct itself in an ethical manner and at nearly every level.

[ouwasp]

I thought the penalties too harsh, but then I've been in the minority on this subject all along...

The $60 mill shoulda been used to build more prison cells for the many perverts out there. Hope it doesn't go down some bureaucratic black hole.

It goes without saying that all of us feel terribly bad for Sandusky's rape victims. I also feel bad for the old time PSU fans. My 81 yr old Sooner fan dad still hopes to see another OU MNC before he passes. The PSU fans of the same era have now had their favorite program likely ruined for the rest of their lives.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

Lots of If's but I look at USC and just shake my head at how
quickly they came back.

SC's probation hasn't fully hit them yet. They dragged their feet so long with the appeals process, if I'm not mistaken this 2012 class they signed was the first where they were taking scholie reductions.

So yes, they are pretty stacked still. That may change in a couple of years. One would hope anyway... otherwise their penalties were meaningless. Which would SuC.

[sendbaht]

This is true USC will start feeling the pinch for the next few years....Penn St....gosh the poor fans....

[pphilfran]

I pretty much agree with this. What happened didn't really give PSU a competitive advantage so removing wins seems a little arbitrary to me. Otherwise I think the penalties are fine.

They removed the wins to knock Joe out of the top 5...imo this was a mandatory item

[Curly Bill]

Where's the option for the penalties should have been even harsher?

[SoonerMarkVA]

Well, it used to be a big deal to be proclaimed the winningest FBS coach and it appears the person who previously held that distinction is now only the fifth winningest coach . . .

Yup. I think this is the real value of vacating the wins.

[SoonerMarkVA]

Where's the option for the penalties should have been even harsher?

Amen.

[tycat947]

Whether or not Penn St is down for fifteen years or less (see USC) depends on how many
of the current players bolt for other schools for meaningful PT, tv, bowls, etc. If the current
squad stays and PSU can win 8-9 games a year for the four year bowl ban then they'll be
back as a force in year five. Lots of If's but I look at USC and just shake my head at how
quickly they came back.

USC is in LA, on the Pacific, beautiful weather, etc. PSU is in the middle of a cold as hell state in the winter. PSU isn't going to win 8-9 games a year IMO. They are going to drop to the bottom of the B1G, and soon! 65 players instead of 85? 4 years of no bowls? A lot of their best players are going to scatter. I'd be surprised in they come close to a winning season in the next 7-8 years, maybe longer. The program's not just going to evolve from this probation and go back to where they were. They haven't been a great power in quite a few years. This is going to sting for a long time, as well it should!

[tycat947]

SC's probation hasn't fully hit them yet. They dragged their feet so long with the appeals process, if I'm not mistaken this 2012 class they signed was the first where they were taking scholie reductions.

So yes, they are pretty stacked still. That may change in a couple of years. One would hope anyway... otherwise their penalties were meaningless. Which would SuC.

You are correct. And an injury or 2 could really make much more of a difference in trojan land!

[Tear Down This Wall]

I like the sanctions because they are worse than the death penalty. Remember our two years without bowls and full scholarship allotment in 1989 and 1990? Those were some pitifully mediocre year.

Penn State will get double that. They will be hammered mercilessly in the Big Ten for years.

Personally, I think they should have been given the choice of:
(1) a 14 year bowl ban and 14 years of scholarship reduction, one for each year they hid Sandusky's molesting, or
(2) a 14 year banishment to FCS-level

The moral of the story is - nothing good can come from buttsex. Penn State - you lose.

[SoonerNomad]

I think USC's appeal of the sanctions also stopped them from losing their scholarships right away. I think they still have to go through the two years with reduced available scholarships. Penn State agreed to the penalties and will not be appealing.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

The problem with the penalties is this: no one involved in the atrocities will be effected by what the NCAA levied.

It's symbolism and is punishing the new coaches, the players, and the whole damned community. NONE of whom had a damned thing to do with any of it. They are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

This is all pitch forks and torches. The NCAA is rarely rational. The real criminals are dead, in jail, or heading to jail.

[finster]

I went to a PSU board “BlueWhiteIllustrated.com”to see the reaction, I saw references to 911,The persecution of Jesus Christ and some misguided madness about the founding fathers that I just couldn’t bring myself to finish reading.
PS. I didn’t vote. Should have had a ATF vs Branch Davidian option

[Aries]

The problem with the penalties is this: no one involved in the atrocities will be effected by what the NCAA levied.



I hope they will still face criminal prosecution.

[Kadosh]

These sanctions are not even close to the impact of the death penalty. You do realize that the $60m fine is only 1 years revenue to PSU, right? 1 year! That's it! I think the Big 10 gets some super preferential treatment by the NCAA...I'll talk about that later.

SMU Problem - Boosters continually paying players to play at SMU. And SMU wasn't the only doing it. They just happened to be caught doing it. Heck, you know it even happens now...just don't get caught doing it.

Penn State - Assistant coach raping...RAPING....little kids for years on end. The head coach knows whats going on (may have even provided lube), president knows whats going on, staff knows it's happening. But the key thing about this whole situation - that the football program doesn't get tarnished. Let the pervert keep doing his thing while PSU keeps playing football.

So what does the NCAA do? They slap away a year's worth of revenue (which can easily be covered by their endowments), post season bowl games an a few scholarships, but let the 'love football so much that we should let the rapist keep raping' program keep playing football. And even let them get TV revenue cause I'm sure people will want to 'check-in' on how poor 'ol PSU is doing.

And lastly the thing about Big 10 preferential treatment - USC got hammered by bowl bans and scholarship losses for Reggie Bush's ballin' activities, and Pete Carrol knowing about them, but Ohio State had a large number of players getting paid, getting cars, get a 'waiver' to play in post season bowl game, AND still keep getting busted after NCAA investigations. But somehow those aren't repeat offenses...hmmm....riiiigggghhhht. And then PSU not getting the death penalty. Me thinks the NCAA and the Big 10 are lubing up each other.

[Tear Down This Wall]

These sanctions are not even close to the impact of the death penalty. You do realize that the $60m fine is only 1 years revenue to PSU, right? 1 year! That's it! I think the Big 10 gets some super preferential treatment by the NCAA...I'll talk about that later.


The $60 million was the gross revenue; the net was $14 million. You don't just pile up money without paying bills and overhead. So, it'll takes three to five years to make the payment.

Also, spare me the "innocents are suffering" routine. At least 10 innocent boys were buttraped by Jerry Sandusky, and Paterno, the athletic director, several administrators, and the school president covered for him for at least 14...probably longer.

Penn State was caught protecting the thing they cherish while innocent lives were tarnished. Now, their "innocent fans and players" can have the thing they cherish tarnished. It's a good punishment. Well deserved.

Finally, the NCAA is a private organization. They have rules and standards that go beyond what happens on the playing field and with athletes. Penn State hiding a child rapist did not meet those standards. Crazy right? A private organization wanting to punish child molesters.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

The problem with the penalties is this: no one involved in the atrocities will be effected by what the NCAA levied.

I think that depends on whether or not you think an entire community's culture was involved- a culture of football being the absolute power on a college campus (and you know what they say about absolute power) and cannonization of a football coach.

And damn straight it is punishing the whole damned community. Frankly with the weaping and wailing that many of their employees and students are STILL exhibiting for the loss of FOOTBALL, as opposed to shrugging their shoulders and moving on with a fresh perspective that football doesn't matter in the face of the attrocities committed, tells me the community needs a good spanking.

You don't really think that is any different than what the NCAA did to OU do you? They very well were punishing our good-ol-boy culture of the time that placed football above shootings, coke busts, dorm rapes, and lyin' and cheatin'.

The NCAA's penalties in general are not designed to punish individuals at all. They are designed to tear down cultures damaging to the integrity of amateur athletics on college campuses. And yes, there is the hypocrisy of the money. Nonetheless, that's why university presidents run the NCAA, and not coaches.

Also, the players IMO are not getting a raw deal at all. They went to PSU in large part to be a part of the "JoPa" legacy. That legacy no longer exists. They are completely free to either establish a new legacy of their own, or play one out at another school.

[Pricetag]

I think that depends on whether or not you think an entire community's culture was involved- a culture of football being the absolute power on a college campus (and you know what they say about absolute power) and cannonization of a football coach.

And damn straight it is punishing the whole damned community. Frankly with the weaping and wailing that many of their employees and students are STILL exhibiting for the loss of FOOTBALL, as opposed to shrugging their shoulders and moving on with a fresh perspective that football doesn't matter in the face of the attrocities committed, tells me the community needs a good spanking.

Yep. The monster has to be killed. There is collateral damage, but it has to be done.

I'm sure there are tons of Penn State fans who aren't speaking up that are questioning whether they can continue to be fans or not in the wake of all this.

Dropping waaaaaaaaaaay down the list of things that are important, this is a great opportunity for Penn State to change their uniforms. The makeover has to be that extreme, IMO.

[Kadosh]

My point is that there are hardly any innocent folks at PSU. When all this initially broke, hardly anyone on PSU campus cared about the victims. There was a tiny little booth set up by a few students (not the school) during gameday to remind everyone that there are victims. Almost everyone on campus and alums were worried about the state of PSU football and Joe Pa. So, if the NCAA is going to penalize PSU (whether or not it is allow to do so), it may as well as hand out the death penalty. Like Pricetag said - the culture at PSU needs to change. They need to stop thinking about football before anything else. So, crush their program so no staff has to ever fear reporting a crime because it may not be in the best interest of PSU football.

[badger]

My point is that there are hardly any innocent folks at PSU.

Let's say a little prayer for them ;)

[rock on sooner]

I hope they will still face criminal prosecution.

I think two of them (prez and AD??) have been charged with some
related to stonewalling the investigation or perjury or the like. There
will be NUMEROUS civil suits against the university and those individuals.

[badger]

I think two of them (prez and AD??) have been charged with some
related to stonewalling the investigation or perjury or the like. There
will be NUMEROUS civil suits against the university and those individuals.

As much as I would love to see massive crash and burn, Penn State is a public university and as such, there may be laws in Pennsylvania limiting liability in civil suits.

There was a case earlier this year where a Broken Arrow school bus driver hit a biker and the state was only liable for $50,000, even though the biker's medical bills were higher.

This might not seem fair to victims, but it protects taxpayers from having to foot the bill every time a state employee effs up. For example, should U.S. taypayers have to pay $50 billion to the Madoff victims? No, because even if police let a bank robber go by accident, the taxpayers don't need to make the bank whole.

As such, if Pennsylvania has the same laws (or similar) to Oklahoma, I expect liability to be limited in civil terms. The victims should be suing the hell outta the Penn State employees themselves, including the... yup, THE ESTATE OF JOE PATERNO. Especially on the benefits of that nice golden parachute he setup around the time he was called to testify.