Obama is off the deep end. "Business owners can thank government for their success."

[BigTip]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/15/obama-dashes-american-dream-suggests-nobody-achieves-success-alone/

This literally has left me speechless. It is scary how out of touch this guy is.

PLEASE donate, volunteer, or do whatever it takes to make sure he is not our president anymore.

[olevetonahill]

Agree with ya on the fact we need to end this Social experiment and get our country back on track

[rock on sooner]

At great risk to some resting heartbeats and attending blood
pressures, I read that article twice and all I could see was
the prez telling people that a lot of people helped create
success by doing a lot of little things, and some not so little
to help successful people be successful. Considering it was
a Foxnews headline that only told part of the story.....

Heh, flame on.....

[BigTip]

Heh, flame on.....

Flaming? Hardly. Just putting it out there for people to read and make their own decisions. I couldn't find the link to the Washington Post article that was shown to me relating this story. All I am doing is showing what our president just said two days ago.

Obama_Roanoke.jpg

July 13, 2012: President Barack Obama greets supporters supporters following a rally in Roanoke, Va. (AP)

President Obama, in a speech to supporters, suggested business owners owe their success to government investment in infrastructure and other projects -- saying “if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that.”
Obama’s comment Friday during a campaign stop in Roanoke, Va., came just days after he urged Congress to extend tax cuts enacted during the Bush administration only to families earning less than $250,000 annually -- part of his argument that top earners have an obligation to pay more to trim the deficit.

“There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me because they want to give something back,” the president said. “If you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

“If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen,” he said. “The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/15/obama-dashes-american-dream-suggests-nobody-achieves-success-alone/#ixzz20n1Rv7nN

[yermom]

so businesses did build roads, bridges and the internet?

[BigTip]

It's a classic which came first, the chicken or the egg, situation.

Where did the money come from to build those roads and bridges? From the government printing money to pay for them? Ha. Maybe these days, but how it really works is where business thrives and generates taxes that then goes to building infrastructure. The "government" pays for nothing! WE pay, we the citizens. This perception problem is one of the huge problems today.

Or go even further back when businesses actually built toll canals and bridges and roads, taking risks and investing money, for possible profits.

[cleller]

Oh brother, he stole that tune from Elizabeth Warren.

He's got nothing to brag on, so he's trying to discount any success others have had.

[XingTheRubicon]

so businesses did build roads, bridges and the internet?

No, just paid for the lion's share of them so liberals could travel.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I was shocked (not really) that he really said people didn't make their businesses successful, gubment did. What a tool!!! This guy is so far off the deep end, he is certifiable nuts. He needs to visit the Central State Hospital and check in...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Oh brother, he stole that tune from Elizabeth Warren.

So how is that lying hag Fauxcahontas doing in her campaign in Taxachusetts?

[badger]

PLEASE donate, volunteer, or do whatever it takes to make sure he is not our president anymore.

The best thing you can do to ensure an election goes the way you want it to? Go vote and make sure that people that plan to vote like you get to the polls also.

Not that it matters in Oklahoma. I wonder if we can turn an even deeper shade of red than 2008. :D

[BigTip]

It won't matter here in Texas either. If only those Obama fans would just read all the emails and articles that there are there would be no way that he could win in any state. Or so it seems.
Of course the media does not help at all. Have you heard the story about 20 people fainting at the speech? Obama said that they should seek help from "para legals" If Romney, or "dumb" Bush had ever said that it would be on every news show.

[badger]

It won't matter here in Texas either. If only those Obama fans would just read all the emails and articles that there are there would be no way that he could win in any state. Or so it seems.
Of course the media does not help at all. Have you heard the story about 20 people fainting at the speech? Obama said that they should seek help from "para legals" If Romney, or "dumb" Bush had ever said that it would be on every news show.

Misspeaking is way overrated. With as many speeches as those politicians make I'm surprised they don't misspeak more often. It gives late night talk show hosts something to fill their hours with, but for voters, it shouldn't matter.

The only time I lived in a battleground state during a presidential election... I was three months too young to vote :(

[Sooner5030]

dear gawd.....it's like Wesley Mouch is his advisor now. I can't wait for the "Equalization of Opportunity Bill".

[BigTip]

Misspeaking is way overrated. With as many speeches as those politicians make I'm surprised they don't misspeak more often. :(

Totally agree. The media coverage of such gaffs are not a reflection on the speaker, but of the media.

[pphilfran]

He is correct...but he uses it as another back stab to the successful...

[KantoSooner]

Ye Gods! I couldn't have asked for a better exemplar of his root philosophy. The individual can do nothing; only the collective, acting through the government, evers does anything of worth.
There it is in a nutshell folks, Democratic political philosophy in less than a tweet.

[rock on sooner]

No, just paid for the lion's share of them so liberals could travel.

And conservatives don't?

[jkjsooner]

how it really works is where business thrives and generates taxes that then goes to building infrastructure. The "government" pays for nothing! WE pay, we the citizens. This perception problem is one of the huge problems today.

I don't see how that goes against what Obama said.

I could say that the presence of government helps businesses become successful and the presence of businesses is a prerequisite for government to exist. This neither contradicts what you said or what Obama said.

[BigTip]

I don't see how that goes against what Obama said.

I could say that the presence of government helps businesses become successful and the presence of businesses is a prerequisite for government to exist. This neither contradicts what you said or what Obama said.

You can "say" whatever you want. But if you want to say the truth, you can know that government makes it HARDER to do business with the rules and regulations and taxes imposed by it. I am not saying we don't need rules. But business does not need government. I am sure there are flourishing businesses in Somali. I am sure that there are different costs of doing business there, but they are not government imposed costs.

Business activity FUNDS government spending. Do away with all business and exactly what do you think the government would be doing? Nothing. No money, no economic activity, no need or money to run a government.

[Soonerjeepman]

“if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that.”

Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/15/obama-dashes-american-dream-suggests-nobody-achieves-success-alone/#ixzz20n1Rv7nN

first one...ya got to be #@$tin me? really...so all you business owners...YOU didn't take the risk, YOU didn't work 12 hour days early on, YOU didn't build that...interesting. Me being a teacher, guess I take ALL the credit! LOL, I need some cash for my contribution!!!

and the 2nd..ah yes, credit the GOVERNMENT and since all this businesses made money, they OWE the government!

what an A$$...please dear Lord...DO NOT let this moron get re-elected.

[Midtowner]

Sounds like some of y'all need to move to...

http://www.healthline.com/hlcmsresource/images/experts/connect/somalia-700383.jpg

Somalia... libertarian paradise. There you won't have to worry about public education, eminent domain being used to construct utility lines and pipelines, at least the illusion of law and order, a working fire department, a military that keeps us safe, the poor and elderly being taken care of, roads and bridges, civil justice, etc.

There, you will be free to pursue your dream so long as you can maintain a militia bigger than the militia down the road and manage to procure energy and the necessities on the 'free' market.

[yermom]

You can "say" whatever you want. But if you want to say the truth, you can know that government makes it HARDER to do business with the rules and regulations and taxes imposed by it. I am not saying we don't need rules. But business does not need government. I am sure there are flourishing businesses in Somali. I am sure that there are different costs of doing business there, but they are not government imposed costs.

Business activity FUNDS government spending. Do away with all business and exactly what do you think the government would be doing? Nothing. No money, no economic activity, no need or money to run a government.

yeah, i'm sure the infrastructure and populace in Somalia is very conducive for running a successful business

[Midtowner]

yeah, i'm sure the infrastructure and populace in Somalia is very conducive for running a successful business

Depends on if you're wanting to run a piracy startup.

Al Shabob has been an amazing 'job creator.'

[BigTip]

Good reading comprehension there guys. The Somalia example was to show that business CAN exist without government. Nobody said it was a great place to be though. Also nobody said we don't need a government.

The point is government needs business for government to survive. Business does not need government for business to survive.
Kill economic activity, eventually you will kill government. Fact. We do not want that to happen.

[Midtowner]

Good reading comprehension there guys. The Somalia example was to show that business CAN exist without government. Nobody said it was a great place to be though. Also nobody said we don't need a government.

The point is government needs business for government to survive. Business does not need government for business to survive.
Kill economic activity, eventually you will kill government. Fact. We do not want that to happen.

Fair point if you want to call 'business' a rug maker or a piracy operation or weapons smuggling.

How many Fortune 500 companies are HQ'd in Mogadishu?

[BigTip]

How many Fortune 500 companies are HQ'd in Mogadishu?

Did you really say that?




http://www.uci.edu/features/2009/09/images/bodyquirk_090914_01_msk_a472x315.jpg

[olevetonahill]

Sounds like some of y'all need to move to...

http://www.healthline.com/hlcmsresource/images/experts/connect/somalia-700383.jpg

Somalia... libertarian paradise. There you won't have to worry about public education, eminent domain being used to construct utility lines and pipelines, at least the illusion of law and order, a working fire department, a military that keeps us safe, the poor and elderly being taken care of, roads and bridges, civil justice, etc.

There, you will be free to pursue your dream so long as you can maintain a militia bigger than the militia down the road and manage to procure energy and the necessities on the 'free' market.

Wait a minute wait a doggone minute
Dint you just say we DONT NEED a military?
Boy you speak out both sides of yer *** dont ya?

[Sooner5030]

Somalia? Seriously? is that your evidence that a smaller government wont work. Some of you people amaze me.

[Midtowner]

Wait a minute wait a doggone minute
Dint you just say we DONT NEED a military?
Boy you speak out both sides of yer *** dont ya?

I think I've been consistent in that we don't need a military anywhere near the size of the one we have.

[Midtowner]

Somalia? Seriously? is that your evidence that a smaller government wont work. Some of you people amaze me.

Well, what regulations on industry do you support? You pretty much have to go to someplace like Somalia or Chad to find a country which doesn't regulate industry as much as we do or a lot more.

[Sooner5030]

Well, what regulations on industry do you support? You pretty much have to go to someplace like Somalia or Chad to find a country which doesn't regulate industry as much as we do or a lot more.

That's very hard to say.....each regulation would have to be scrutinized individually rather than some campaign slogan of deregulation = Somalia.

I'd like to grow pot in my back yard.......start a dairy farm.....design and cast an engine and sell it to the public.....write linux based software...build a house that doesn't meet specs.......alter the flow of surface water on my property...distill my beer/wine made from excess grains/grapes.....freely purchase whatever health insurance plan I prefer.

I can't do any of these things without playing along with some draconian set of centralized rules and permits designed to protect the established, connected and crony folks that already do these things and pay off our government to do so.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/15/obama-dashes-american-dream-suggests-nobody-achieves-success-alone/

... do whatever it takes to make sure he is not our president anymore.

Too late. We chased that pizza guy out of the race and nominated mittens instead.

[Midtowner]

I'd like to grow pot in my back yard.......

I can support that.


start a dairy farm.....

And you can so long as your product doesn't kill people or make them sick and meets the regulatory requirements meant to do so.


design and cast an engine and sell it to the public.....

You can do that right now if you can raise the capital.


write linux based software...

You are completely free to do so. Good luck making money on that platform though.


build a house that doesn't meet specs.......

There are plenty of places you can do that. If you live on olevet's hill, you can probably build your house out of cardboard and duct tape. When you live in a city, everyone has a stake in the long-term health of your structure. If your home becomes blight, everyone ends up having to pay for it in terms of lower property costs, etc. That's why we all get together and decide that as a community, we all want to abide by certain inconvenient rules. If you don't like it, go find a community which doesn't care about blight or live where there's no community.


alter the flow of surface water on my property...

You can't do this in most communities because of the above rules without a permitting process. Right now, I'm in the process of very expensive litigation because some jackass neighbor of my client decided to make major changes to the water flow across his land and as a result, put my client's home under 2 feet of water. The most efficient way for these things to be dealt with is to never have to deal with them in the first place. Had the defendant gone through the permitting process, his *** wouldn't be getting sued right now for far more than his policy limits. Again, you're free to do this if you live in the middle of nowhere, but if you harm someone, we've got a civil justice system to remedy that.


distill my beer/wine made from excess grains/grapes.....freely purchase whatever health insurance plan I prefer.

You can do all of those things right now in Oklahoma.


I can't do any of these things without playing along with some draconian set of centralized rules and permits designed to protect the established, connected and crony folks that already do these things and pay off our government to do so.

No, you apparently want to take zero personal responsibility for your actions. Go to Somalia, put together a militia, and if there was water runoff to worry about, who cares? Just shoot your neighbor. If your neighbor builds a shanty which doesn't meet your demands and is probably going to fall over the next time there's a sand storm, either kill him or live with it. Libertarian paradise!

[Sooner5030]

I can support that.



And you can so long as your product doesn't kill people or make them sick and meets the regulatory requirements meant to do so.



You can do that right now if you can raise the capital.



You are completely free to do so. Good luck making money on that platform though.



There are plenty of places you can do that. If you live on olevet's hill, you can probably build your house out of cardboard and duct tape. When you live in a city, everyone has a stake in the long-term health of your structure. If your home becomes blight, everyone ends up having to pay for it in terms of lower property costs, etc. That's why we all get together and decide that as a community, we all want to abide by certain inconvenient rules. If you don't like it, go find a community which doesn't care about blight or live where there's no community.



You can't do this in most communities because of the above rules without a permitting process. Right now, I'm in the process of very expensive litigation because some jackass neighbor of my client decided to make major changes to the water flow across his land and as a result, put my client's home under 2 feet of water. The most efficient way for these things to be dealt with is to never have to deal with them in the first place. Had the defendant gone through the permitting process, his *** wouldn't be getting sued right now for far more than his policy limits. Again, you're free to do this if you live in the middle of nowhere, but if you harm someone, we've got a civil justice system to remedy that.



You can do all of those things right now in Oklahoma.



No, you apparently want to take zero personal responsibility for your actions. Go to Somalia, put together a militia, and if there was water runoff to worry about, who cares? Just shoot your neighbor. If your neighbor builds a shanty which doesn't meet your demands and is probably going to fall over the next time there's a sand storm, either kill him or live with it. Libertarian paradise!

You're assuming that my own risk mitigation techniques will not be as effective as .GOV's stamp. I never said I should not be responsible for the damages my decisions/actions may cause.

[diverdog]

Okay here are the new rules:

You cannot comment on this thread if you have received the following or done the following:

Worked for the government
get paid by the government
get government disability payments
have a government retirement
receive social security or medicare/medicaid
used the GI bill
got a student loan from the government
got a first time home buyers loan from the government
Used Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac or Sallie Mae
Got farm subsidies
Got crop insurance
Got flood insurance
worked for a company that has government contracts
received any sort of government subsidy
got free public education
use a highway or other infrastructure built by the government

Or if you live in one of the states bolded in red

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/assets_c/2010/04/mapstatestaxes-thumb-454x340-18041.gif

[BigTip]

Okay here are the new rules:

You cannot comment on this thread if you have received the following or done the following:

Worked for the government
get paid by the government
get government disability payments
have a government retirement
receive social security or medicare/medicaid
used the GI bill
got a student loan from the government
got a first time home buyers loan from the government
Used Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac or Sallie Mae
Got farm subsidies
Got crop insurance
Got flood insurance
worked for a company that has government contracts
received any sort of government subsidy
got free public education
use a highway or other infrastructure built by the government

Or if you live in one of the states bolded in red

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/assets_c/2010/04/mapstatestaxes-thumb-454x340-18041.gif

I shall continue posting then.

I can't read the map. What does that represent?

[Midtowner]

You're assuming that my own risk mitigation techniques will not be as effective as .GOV's stamp. I never said I should not be responsible for the damages my decisions/actions may cause.

And if you decide to build a piece of crap house which has the roof cave in the year after you move out because you used inferior materials, who holds you responsible? What are your "risk mitigation techniques"? How do you make sure your neighbors don't do that? How do you make sure your neighbors don't put you under 2 feet of water?

You never answered any of my questions... just some stupid BS about your superior risk mitigation techniques? My flood client has a detention pond on his property, had a meticulously prepared site plan which accounted for a 500 year flood. He couldn't "risk mitigate" or whatever for his neighbor drastically altering the flow of water across his land.

Not everyone is going to act responsibly. That's why we have the government. There are certain things only a government can do. And don't worry, if you choose to build a crap house or alter your drainage, etc., your neighbors have the government to protect them from your irresponsibility.

[SCOUT]

And if you decide to build a piece of crap house which has the roof cave in the year after you move out because you used inferior materials, who holds you responsible? What are your "risk mitigation techniques"? How do you make sure your neighbors don't do that? How do you make sure your neighbors don't put you under 2 feet of water?

You never answered any of my questions... just some stupid BS about your superior risk mitigation techniques? My flood client has a detention pond on his property, had a meticulously prepared site plan which accounted for a 500 year flood. He couldn't "risk mitigate" or whatever for his neighbor drastically altering the flow of water across his land.

Not everyone is going to act responsibly. That's why we have the government. There are certain things only a government can do. And don't worry, if you choose to build a crap house or alter your drainage, etc., your neighbors have the government to protect them from your irresponsibility.
So the government is able to risk mitigate anything?

[diverdog]

I shall continue posting then.

I can't read the map. What does that represent?

States that receive more money in federal taxes than they pay out. In other words Oklahoma gets $1.36 for every dollar they pay in Federal Taxes. The Blue States like California are getting hosed because they do not get $1 for every $1 they put in. Oklahoma gets in excess of $5 billions dollars in federal money. You guys bitch and moan about the federal government but it were not for taxpayers in other states Oklahoma and many other states in the red would be in dire shape.

Here's the deal. Obama was stupid for the way he made the case that the Federal government has helped a lot of businessmen. He was right but was wrong in how he said it. Several years ago there was a report by a bunch of billionaires basically saying that they could not have built their businesses without considerable help from the government whether it was educational loans, SBA guarantees of infrastructure. I do SBA lending at my bank and I can tell you for a fact that the government via the taxpayer has helped start a lot of businesses in this country. To sit there and say the government does not play a critical role in helping business success is nonsense.

[Midtowner]

So the government is able to risk mitigate anything?

Did I say that?

[SCOUT]

Did I say that?
Yes. You described risk mitigation and then explained how you could never account for every person out there. You went on to say that that is why we government to intervene.

[Midtowner]

Yes. You described risk mitigation and then explained how you could never account for every person out there. You went on to say that that is why we government to intervene.

Nope. That's putting words into my mouth. Even if everyone follows all of the rules, there are still going to be risks. **** happens.

The government sure can help with risk mitigation. Actually, there is somewhat of a partnership between public and private risk mitigation strategy. Sometimes a private entity is the most efficient. I think it's agreed almost universally that private insurers do a better job at auto insurance. As far as making sure houses are built with proper materials, etc., the government is a lot better equipped to pass laws which bind everyone and enforce them.

[Sooner5030]

And if you decide to build a piece of crap house which has the roof cave in the year after you move out because you used inferior materials, who holds you responsible? What are your "risk mitigation techniques"? How do you make sure your neighbors don't do that? How do you make sure your neighbors don't put you under 2 feet of water?

You never answered any of my questions... just some stupid BS about your superior risk mitigation techniques? My flood client has a detention pond on his property, had a meticulously prepared site plan which accounted for a 500 year flood. He couldn't "risk mitigate" or whatever for his neighbor drastically altering the flow of water across his land.

Not everyone is going to act responsibly. That's why we have the government. There are certain things only a government can do. And don't worry, if you choose to build a crap house or alter your drainage, etc., your neighbors have the government to protect them from your irresponsibility.

Why do you assume I would use inferior materials?

No one can prevent certain events (see USACE/New Orleans) so don't give me the "fear mongering only the gubment can protect us" shiat. Sometimes mother nature can defeat all risk mitigation techniques. If I alter my surface water and that alteration is the proximate cause of damage to someone else's property then they can sue which is what your client is doing.

There are many of us that believe there is a lack of balance between freedom and security.

Your use of "neighbors" and my "crap house" is also very telling of your ignorance. I would never build a home next to someone else's that would devalue their property....not because some law or rule forbids it though. But that protection or security that you seek when implemented is done so in a poor manner.....so much so that someone cannot build a dwelling (over 200 sq ft) in the middle of a 500 acre wilderness without meeting codes, health department and other regulations.

[diverdog]

Why do you assume I would use inferior materials?

No one can prevent certain events (see USACE/New Orleans) so don't give me the "fear mongering only the gubment can protect us" shiat. Sometimes mother nature can defeat all risk mitigation techniques. If I alter my surface water and that alteration is the proximate cause of damage to someone else's property then they can sue which is what your client is doing.

There are many of us that believe there is a lack of balance between freedom and security.

Your use of "neighbors" and my "crap house" is also very telling of your ignorance. I would never build a home next to someone else's that would devalue their property....not because some law or rule forbids it though. But that protection or security that you seek when implemented is done so in a poor manner.....so much so that someone cannot build a dwelling (over 200 sq ft) in the middle of a 500 acre wilderness without meeting codes, health department and other regulations.

Out of morbid curiosity do you think people should be able to build airplanes without meeting federal regulatory codes?

[Midtowner]

Why do you assume I would use inferior materials?

You? Can't say. But someone will. Certainly homebuilders. Have you ever worked with homebuilders? Them's some sheisty bastages. Many of 'em cut corners in lots of ways and would do a lot more if no one regulated them.


No one can prevent certain events (see USACE/New Orleans) so don't give me the "fear mongering only the gubment can protect us" shiat. Sometimes mother nature can defeat all risk mitigation techniques. If I alter my surface water and that alteration is the proximate cause of damage to someone else's property then they can sue which is what your client is doing.

And the fact that there's a permitting process and the defendant failed to follow it makes my job as the plaintiff's lawyer a hell of a lot easier. I never said 'only the government can protect us,' but who is better to run a levee and pump system? All State or the Army Corps of Engineers?


Your use of "neighbors" and my "crap house" is also very telling of your ignorance. I would never build a home next to someone else's that would devalue their property....not because some law or rule forbids it though.

Great. You're a good person. Many people aren't. Who will protect you from some a-hole building a house next to yours with bubblegum and duct tape? They make insurance for that?


But that protection or security that you seek when implemented is done so in a poor manner.....so much so that someone cannot build a dwelling (over 200 sq ft) in the middle of a 500 acre wilderness without meeting codes, health department and other regulations.

If that's what the voters agreed on, get over it. Change the law or move.

[SCOUT]

Nope. That's putting words into my mouth. Even if everyone follows all of the rules, there are still going to be risks. **** happens.

The government sure can help with risk mitigation. Actually, there is somewhat of a partnership between public and private risk mitigation strategy. Sometimes a private entity is the most efficient. I think it's agreed almost universally that private insurers do a better job at auto insurance. As far as making sure houses are built with proper materials, etc., the government is a lot better equipped to pass laws which bind everyone and enforce them.
I don't think I put any words in your mouth. You left it open to interpretation, and I did.

The government surely has its place. I would never dream of making the case that lawlessness should be the order of the day. However, I don't see government as the solution in many situations where it has been deemed to be the savior. You implied that careless citizens will never be controlled therefore, government should rule the day. That is the concept to which I took issue.

[Sooner5030]

Out of morbid curiosity do you think people should be able to build airplanes without meeting federal regulatory codes?

Personally, I believe that airspace above 400' agl is a public good. So people can build airplanes all they want....but to fly above 400' agl on your own property or over any public or other private property you should probably meet some basic requirements. That being said.....I'd argue that building experimental planes is less regulated than starting a diary farm. Flying them is another story though.

[Midtowner]

I don't think I put any words in your mouth. You left it open to interpretation, and I did.

The government surely has its place. I would never dream of making the case that lawlessness should be the order of the day. However, I don't see government as the solution in many situations where it has been deemed to be the savior. You implied that careless citizens will never be controlled therefore, government should rule the day. That is the concept to which I took issue.

Careless citizens in many cases need to be punished or regulated when that's an efficient model to manage unrepentant and harmful *********gery. For building codes, we have a pretty good model.

[SCOUT]

Careless citizens in many cases need to be punished or regulated when that's an efficient model to manage unrepentant and harmful *********gery. For building codes, we have a pretty good model.
Don't take this as an insult, because I actually respect your opinion a lot... Wow, leading statement, eh?
This quote is something on which we can agree. However, if you go back to the post you made, and that I originally quoted, the message is fairly different. You have tried,and basically succeeded, to change the point of conversation. You have artfully modified the conversation to a point of agreement. Well done. You should be a counsel...oh wait :D

Anyway, I agree with your most recent statement and still disagree with your original comment.

[Midtowner]

My original statement is that folks who think we don't need government regulation are absolutely full of ****.

I stand by that.

[OU_Sooners75]

States that receive more money in federal taxes than they pay out. In other words Oklahoma gets $1.36 for every dollar they pay in Federal Taxes. The Blue States like California are getting hosed because they do not get $1 for every $1 they put in. Oklahoma gets in excess of $5 billions dollars in federal money. You guys bitch and moan about the federal government but it were not for taxpayers in other states Oklahoma and many other states in the red would be in dire shape.

Here's the deal. Obama was stupid for the way he made the case that the Federal government has helped a lot of businessmen. He was right but was wrong in how he said it. Several years ago there was a report by a bunch of billionaires basically saying that they could not have built their businesses without considerable help from the government whether it was educational loans, SBA guarantees of infrastructure. I do SBA lending at my bank and I can tell you for a fact that the government via the taxpayer has helped start a lot of businesses in this country. To sit there and say the government does not play a critical role in helping business success is nonsense.

So now lending is equal to success?

You said the key words in your post here. And I agree with a lot of what you said. But the government doesnt help any company succeed. They will help bail them out of trouble. But they are not the decision makers of any business. They lend money in the form of loans...they do not creat business plans for the businesses.

The businesses succeed or fail on the business's leadership and structure, not how much money the government loans the business.

[diverdog]

Personally, I believe that airspace above 400' agl is a public good. So people can build airplanes all they want....but to fly above 400' agl on your own property or over any public or other private property you should probably meet some basic requirements. That being said.....I'd argue that building experimental planes is less regulated than starting a diary farm. Flying them is another story though.

There are a lot of issues with dairy farms. In the Chesapeake drainage area they are among the largest polluters of surface water.
http://www.cbf.org/view.image?Id=3885

[Midtowner]

So now lending is equal to success?

You said the key words in your post here. And I agree with a lot of what you said. But the government doesnt help any company succeed. They will help bail them out of trouble. But they are not the decision makers of any business. They lend money in the form of loans...they do not creat business plans for the businesses.

The businesses succeed or fail on the business's leadership and structure, not how much money the government loans the business.

Few businesses can survive without the system and infrastructure our government has created.

Hence, Somalia.

[diverdog]

So now lending is equal to success?

You said the key words in your post here. And I agree with a lot of what you said. But the government doesnt help any company succeed. They will help bail them out of trouble. But they are not the decision makers of any business. They lend money in the form of loans...they do not creat business plans for the businesses.

The businesses succeed or fail on the business's leadership and structure, not how much money the government loans the business.

Actually they do help with business plans and about everything else you described.

The military would be a prime example. Contractors work hand in hand with government staff. Another example would be things like the Research Triangle where there is a relationship between the federal government, higher education and the private sector.

And yes lending can lead to success. Try running any large business without a credit facility.

[Sooner5030]

There are a lot of issues with dairy farms. In the Chesapeake drainage area they are among the largest polluters of surface water.
http://www.cbf.org/view.image?Id=3885

DD, the motivation behind regulating dairy farms is more driven by the product they sell rather than the increased nitrogen runoff. When you get inspected it's all about the facilities and how they prevent shiaty micro-orgs from infesting the product you sell.

Not to get too off-topic.....lets just agree to disagree on how regulations are designed and implemented.

Government's sustainability relies on commercial activity more than commerce relies on the protections of the government. The parasite needs to understand it is not the host.....the President seems to not understand this.

[OU_Sooners75]

Few businesses can survive without the system and infrastructure our government has created.

Hence, Somalia.

Wait a minute....wait a darn minute...

Before our current infrastructure in this country, we didn't have paved interstates or an electric grid. and most businesses back then thrived just fine.

And some of those businesses are still alive and well today.

They started before all the government subsidies and regulations. They started before government got way too big. And they continue today. Companies like Edision's GE, Sears Roebuck, ConocoPhillips, Santa Fe Railroad, Ford, etc. Those are just a very small example of businesses that came through without the current infrastructure.

Some of them have had to get some government assistance, but the government is not the reason they became successful.

Did the government have a hand in helping get some businesses going? Has the government help prepare infrastructure, yes. But the government outside of helping businesses with easing the burden of startup costs has never made any business successful or a failure!

Example: Solyandra...they got billions in their grant...how did that help them succeed?

[OU_Sooners75]

Credit Facility =/= government.

[Midtowner]

Wait a minute....wait a darn minute...

Before our current infrastructure in this country, we didn't have paved interstates or an electric grid. and most businesses back then thrived just fine.

And some of those businesses are still alive and well today.

Want to compare their health to where they were 100+ years ago? Also, do you want to talk about the fact that some of those companies relied on slavery, slave wages or mistreated workers, is that something you'd really like to move back to?


They started before all the government subsidies and regulations. They started before government got way too big. And they continue today. Companies like Edision's GE, Sears Roebuck, ConocoPhillips, Santa Fe Railroad, Ford, etc. Those are just a very small example of businesses that came through without the current infrastructure.

And since then, many of those companies have been involved in abuses so horrible that they have spurned much of the regulations we have today.


Some of them have had to get some government assistance, but the government is not the reason they became successful.

But by your own admission, the government is why they remained successful.


Did the government have a hand in helping get some businesses going? Has the government help prepare infrastructure, yes. But the government outside of helping businesses with easing the burden of startup costs has never made any business successful or a failure!

Gosh, do you think the government may have had some sort of hand in the expansion of electricity to aid in the adoption of Edison's lightbulb? Maybe building the roads for Ford's cars? Subsidizing the hell out of railroads?


Example: Solyandra...they got billions in their loan...how did that help them succeed?

Not every swing's a hit.

[diverdog]

DD, the motivation behind regulating dairy farms is more driven by the product they sell rather than the increased nitrogen runoff. When you get inspected it's all about the facilities and how they prevent shiaty micro-orgs from infesting the product you sell.

Not to get too off-topic.....lets just agree to disagree on how regulations are designed and implemented.

Government's sustainability relies on commercial activity more than commerce relies on the protections of the government. The parasite needs to understand it is not the host.....the President seems to not understand this.

My grandparents had a dairy farm on their land.

Don't get me wrong I think there are some stupid government regulations.......like getting my hands on unpasturized Stilton cheese.

cfOCak7wh1U

[BigTip]

To sit there and say the government does not play a critical role in helping business success is nonsense.

I totally disagree. Totally. The government does just about everything they possibly can do to hinder business. Taxes, regulations, superfluous record keeping requirements, inspectors, slow permitting processes, constantly changing code requirements. But don't misunderstand me. I am not proposing doing away with these things.

But yes, the government does take my money, and yours, and use it to build roads to allow customers to get to me.
And their regulators insure that I am able to buy safe raw product to sell to my customers. Among other things.

But they are not the REASON for my success. Neither are my customers the reason for my success. Nor are my employees the reason for my success. Nor is the electric company that provides power to my business is the reason for my success. Nor are the friends and family that lent me money to start my business the reason for my success.

All these things CONTRIBUTED to my success, but they are not the reason.

I AM THE REASON FOR MY SUCCESS!!!!!! Without me, without my drive, and my hard work, and my willingness to put my life savings, and those of my family at risk, this business would not exist. The way I managed all the above things is the reason for my success.

Do you not understand that what he is saying is in direct opposition to "the American Dream?" This line of thought is the most shocking and troublesome thing I have heard him say. And that is saying a lot!

[soonerloyal]

OBAMA: [L]ook, if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business -- you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that's the reason I'm running for President -- because I still believe in that idea. You're not on your own, we're in this together.


There, there. Don't let those pesky ol' facts bother your little heads any. *comforting hug*

[OU_Sooners75]

Midtowner...are you really trying to say regulations and rules make for successful business?

Seriously...you are arguing the wrong points.

Government does not create successful businesses....the leadership of business create successful businesses.

You cant tell that because you have your head shoved up Obama and the rest of the far lefts *** you cannot even see daylight!

[diverdog]

I totally disagree. Totally. The government does just about everything they possibly can do to hinder business. Taxes, regulations, superfluous record keeping requirements, inspectors, slow permitting processes, constantly changing code requirements. But don't misunderstand me. I am not proposing doing away with these things.

But yes, the government does take my money, and yours, and use it to build roads to allow customers to get to me.
And their regulators insure that I am able to buy safe raw product to sell to my customers. Among other things.

But they are not the REASON for my success. Neither are my customers the reason for my success. Nor are my employees the reason for my success. Nor is the electric company that provides power to my business is the reason for my success. Nor are the friends and family that lent me money to start my business the reason for my success.

All these things CONTRIBUTED to my success, but they are not the reason.

I AM THE REASON FOR MY SUCCESS!!!!!! Without me, without my drive, and my hard work, and my willingness to put my life savings, and those of my family at risk, this business would not exist. The way I managed all the above things is the reason for my success.

Do you not understand that what he is saying is in direct opposition to "the American Dream?" This line of thought is the most shocking and troublesome thing I have heard him say. And that is saying a lot!

Tip:

I do not disagree with some of the stuff you are saying and yes there are burdens to being in business. I have owned a couple myself. But that is not to say that the government does not play a role in helping your business....more so than you may realize. It may not be direct help but it creates an environment that can allow you to grow. Think what would happen if Tinker were to shut down. A lot of businesses who may have never thought they were dependent on the government would find out that was not necessarily the case.

I listened to Obama's speech and I think he was trying to circle back to his earlier comments of how the GI Bill and other things helped the US become strong. Then again I could be wrong.

Out of curiosity what kind of business do you own?

[Midtowner]

Midtowner...are you really trying to say regulations and rules make for successful business?

Yes. Without clean air requirements, we'd be absolutely shutting down energy plants.

Without regulations on automobiles, our auto manufacturers would have been sued out of existence.

People who don't understand this don't live in the real world.


Government does not create successful businesses....the leadership of business create successful businesses.

How does Wal Mart exist without roads to get their products to market? Without factories powered by companies which have used the government authority to condemn easements of power lines, how are their products created? It ain't by your bootstraps, it's by the coercive power of government and public-private partnerships.

[BigTip]

It's the cart before the horse.

I am very thankful for the government. It prevents robbers from coming in to take all my money. It prevents foreign powers from invading my town and burning my building. There is a need for governments. There always has been a need since caveman days when Og was chosen leader of the cave people. But Og didn't put meat on the tribe's rock. The PEOPLE went out and got the meat. Sure Og might have directed them to a good hunting place, but it was THE PEOPLE that insured their survival. Og wouldn't eat either without the people to support him as well.

[okie52]

OBAMA: [L]ook, if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business -- you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don't do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That's how we funded the GI Bill. That's how we created the middle class. That's how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That's how we invented the Internet. That's how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that's the reason I'm running for President -- because I still believe in that idea. You're not on your own, we're in this together.


There, there. Don't let those pesky ol' facts bother your little heads any. *comforting hug*

Are those the facts? How comforting to know the government is going to take care of me and I really don't have to take any risks because someone else has already done it for me.

Are public employees the only good guys with you?

Why don't you name a better senator than coburn....I'd love to hear it.

[Curly Bill]

Are those the facts? How comforting to know the government is going to take care of me and I really don't have to take any risks because someone else has already done it for me.

Are public employees the only good guys with you?

Why don't you name a better senator than coburn....I'd love to hear it.

Right from the mouth of Obammy! How could it be other than the truth? LOL

I don't even know the point he/she was trying to make highlighting that entire thread?? Maybe that their last batch of meth really knocked em for a loop?

[sappstuf]

There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges.

Education and infrastructure spending is about 5% of the annual federal budget. This entire speech was nothing more than a huge strawman argument..


The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

That is not the reason the government created the internet. The premise is so false and silly on its face, I can't believe he hasn't been called out for it. And it wasn't just government research... It was military research. Military spending that most Dems want to cut massively.

[Midtowner]

It's the cart before the horse.

I am very thankful for the government. It prevents robbers from coming in to take all my money. It prevents foreign powers from invading my town and burning my building. There is a need for governments. There always has been a need since caveman days when Og was chosen leader of the cave people. But Og didn't put meat on the tribe's rock. The PEOPLE went out and got the meat. Sure Og might have directed them to a good hunting place, but it was THE PEOPLE that insured their survival. Og wouldn't eat either without the people to support him as well.

Meat's actually a pretty good example. Read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle to hear about what a deregulated meat industry looks like.

[Midtowner]

Education and infrastructure spending is about 5% of the annual federal budget. This entire speech was nothing more than a huge strawman argument..

Why just consider federal budget? Education is >50% of our state budget. In terms of all of the taxes you and I pay, what we pay for our public schools is pretty significant, but so is the ROI. An educated workforce is a must in this economy. Without an educated workforce, many businesses, probably including places like Wal Mart wouldn't be able to find employees or customers.


That is not the reason the government created the internet. The premise is so false and silly on its face, I can't believe he hasn't been called out for it. And it wasn't just government research... It was military research. Military spending that most Dems want to cut massively.

And yet if not for government investment in that initial infrastructure, would we have an internet?

[okie52]

Right from the mouth of Obammy! How could it be other than the truth? LOL

I don't even know the point he/she was trying to make highlighting that entire thread?? Maybe that their last batch of meth really knocked em for a loop?

LOL.

Heh...just look at the brain damage.

[Midtowner]

I AM THE REASON FOR MY SUCCESS!!!!!! Without me, without my drive, and my hard work, and my willingness to put my life savings, and those of my family at risk, this business would not exist. The way I managed all the above things is the reason for my success.

Do you not understand that what he is saying is in direct opposition to "the American Dream?" This line of thought is the most shocking and troublesome thing I have heard him say. And that is saying a lot!

Get over yourself. Without all of those things you say merely "helped" you, your business would not exist. Would you have even been able to get off of the ground if you had to start your own herd for beef (because that's the only way you'd know it was safe), raise all of your own grains and veggies, generate your own electricity, make sure there is a working road leading to your business, built your own power plant, etc.?

You are the reason for your success, true, but so are we the people. Without the symbiotic relationship between government and private industry, private industry wouldn't work, nor would government.

[cleller]

If its possible that if the government assists our businesses to some degree, yet many fail, is it impossible that the government can also hamper business in some aspects?

Sure, no one can get along without government. I think the crux of the argument is that Obama seeks to justify any and every expansion of government as good. There's no way that can be predicted. Anyone that has bought a mutual fund knows that future proceeds cannot be guaranteed based on past results.

If government always a benefit, we would have the instances of repeals and deregulation that occur all the time.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Hey Midtown! What if I want to drink raw milk. Its good for ya, but I doubt you can sell it legally. Too much damned gubment...I grew up on raw milk, skim off the fresh cream and stir the rest, drink it up, good stuff.

[BigTip]

Get over yourself. Without all of those things you say merely "helped" you, your business would not exist.

You are the reason for your success, true, but so are we the people. Without the symbiotic relationship between government and private industry, private industry wouldn't work, nor would government.

You just repeated what I said. Why? But you had to precede the repeated facts with a confrontational statement. Why? Liberals. They have such a hard time with facts and logic.

Hey, here's another thing that "helped me" in my business.
Water and Air.
Without those things, my "business would not exist."

[Midtowner]

You just repeated what I said. Why? But you had to precede the repeated facts with a confrontational statement. Why? Liberals. They have such a hard time with facts and logic.

Hey, here's another thing that "helped me" in my business.
Water and Air.
Without those things, my "business would not exist."

The government didn't create water and air.

The government did create education and infrastructure which has allowed your business to exist. That's a kind of obvious distinction I would think.

[Midtowner]

If its possible that if the government assists our businesses to some degree, yet many fail, is it impossible that the government can also hamper business in some aspects?

It's kind of like the example of building codes preventing your neighbors from constructing homes with bubblegum and duct tape. The regulations are generally aimed at the common good, not the individual business' good. So yes, requiring scrubbers on coal plants is sure as hell going to hamper business, but it's also going to save lives. It's always a tradeoff operating a business and living in a civil society. If you believe in the concept that your right to swing your fist ends at your neighbor's nose, most of these regs make sense.


Sure, no one can get along without government. I think the crux of the argument is that Obama seeks to justify any and every expansion of government as good. There's no way that can be predicted. Anyone that has bought a mutual fund knows that future proceeds cannot be guaranteed based on past results.

I think you're putting words in his mouth. He said that business owners didn't get there by themselves. That's true. Somali businesses get where they get alone.


If government always a benefit, we would have the instances of repeals and deregulation that occur all the time.

If the government always made the right and rational choice, a lot of deregulation would have been repealed following the crash of the Bush economy. Thinking that Congress is going to act rationally is just...irrational.

[sappstuf]

Why just consider federal budget? Education is >50% of our state budget. In terms of all of the taxes you and I pay, what we pay for our public schools is pretty significant, but so is the ROI. An educated workforce is a must in this economy. Without an educated workforce, many businesses, probably including places like Wal Mart wouldn't be able to find employees or customers.

Because Obama clearly wasn't talking about state and local governments, his entire speech is about federal benefits. Walmart?? Stay on topic.


And yet if not for government investment in that initial infrastructure, would we have an internet?

In a word, yes.

[marfacowboy]

The historical fact of the matter is the American people, via their government, did in fact set the stage for many successful private ventures. Mining, the railroads, agriculture, oil and gas.
I don't understand why people want to demonize the government so much, when it has in fact played an integral part in building our nation. I think it's mostly because too many of you spend a lot more time listening to entertainers and propaganda shows (some call it FOX News) and not enough time in History classes. I have a degree in History, and I'm happy I went that route, because it gave me a broader, deeper perspective on things.
The system is about balance. It's about a cooperative effort between government and private industry to get things done. We, as a nation, cannot succeed at anything without both.

[OU_Sooners75]

Yes. Without clean air requirements, we'd be absolutely shutting down energy plants.

Without regulations on automobiles, our auto manufacturers would have been sued out of existence.

People who don't understand this don't live in the real world.



How does Wal Mart exist without roads to get their products to market? Without factories powered by companies which have used the government authority to condemn easements of power lines, how are their products created? It ain't by your bootstraps, it's by the coercive power of government and public-private partnerships.

Again, you are trying to say that government makes successful businesses...it doesnt.

I know it is hard to understand for someone like you, but its fact.

Fact: Government set out a plan for the highway infrastructure of today in the late 1940s or 1950s. Government set out a plan for a electric grid in the early 1900s. The government set out a plan for clean air. And that was well after some very successful foundries, oil companies, electric companies, etc were already successful.

Before the current infrastructure, local stores were already successful.

With the current infrastructure some companies were able to make the jump into a nationwide success.

The infrastructure is a tool. Just like a shovel or a pen. It is not the reason any business is successful.

If the infrastructure and regulations were the cause of businesses succeeding, then we would never see any business fail.


Like I said, you are aruging the wrong points...like your Black Jesus, Mr. Barack Hussein Obama!

[BigTip]

The government didn't create water and air.

The government did create education and infrastructure which has allowed your business to exist. That's a kind of obvious distinction I would think.

You do not get the point.

There has been, and will always be, government. It is a fact of life, a force of nature, just like water and air. But just like water and air, government is not the reason for my business success, as our current president is claiming, it is just part of the total picture that allows it to happen. Without all the parts, (customers, investors, government, air, water) business would not exist. But it is the initiative of business owners that cause them to SUCCEED.

The president, who has a hard time "getting over his self" does not grasp that concept either.

[REDREX]

Obama and the Liberals survive by having as many people dependent on the Gov't as possible-----Why would he say anything else?

[yermom]

back to Somalia for a minute...

the other thing you get in the US is law and order. in lots of places if you amass more wealth than a couple of chickens, good luck protecting it from the gang of thugs with machetes and/or AK-47s that would like to liberate it from you.

even if Somali Microsoft has a sweet tech monopoly and their own child army to protect it, how competitive are they in the global economy without a real infrastructure?

[TitoMorelli]

Your Dog Owns Your House
Anthony de Jasay

Did you know that your dog owns your house, or rather some portion of it? If this is not immediately obvious to you, you will find it helpful to consider some aspects of the ethics and economics of redistribution.

Your dog is alert, plucky and a fearsome guardian of your property. For all we know, without his services, you would have been burgled over and over again. Your belongings would be depleted and the utility you derived from your home would be much reduced. The difference between the actual value of your home and its unguarded value is the contribution of your dog, and so is the difference between the respective utilities or satisfactions you derive from it. We do not know the exact figure, but the main thing is that there is one.


more - http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/Jasaydog.html

[marfacowboy]

Like I said, you are aruging the wrong points...like your Black Jesus, Mr. Barack Hussein Obama!

This is really what this is all about. Garden variety racism, still alive and kicking.
Ignorance, followed by fear, hate and often, violence.

[diverdog]

Obama and the Liberals survive by having as many people dependent on the Gov't as possible-----Why would he say anything else?

Remind me who got the lions share of all the bailout money?

[Midtowner]

You do not get the point.

There has been, and will always be, government. It is a fact of life, a force of nature, just like water and air. But just like water and air, government is not the reason for my business success, as our current president is claiming, it is just part of the total picture that allows it to happen. Without all the parts, (customers, investors, government, air, water) business would not exist. But it is the initiative of business owners that cause them to SUCCEED.

Not all governments are created equal. Back to Somalia, there is actually a government. Is it an effective government? No. Therefore, business does not succeed. There are many reasons for your business' success. Sometimes it's the owner, sometimes, it's dumb luck, sometimes it's key employees, sometimes it's a fortunate inheritance. None of that happens without an educated workforce, educated customers, security and infrastructure.


The president, who has a hard time "getting over his self" does not grasp that concept either.

He's stating fact. You're repeatedly taking sole credit for your success. It'd be like Mark Hamill taking all the credit for the success of the Star Wars franchise.

[REDREX]

Remind me who got the lions share of all the bailout money?----You mean people like GM or the State Governments ?----I think the banks---some of whom did not want it----paid it back

[KantoSooner]

Can someone bring me up to speed with the whole Somalia dealio? I don't see either businesses or governments doing much of anything there. Seems kind of like a state of nature, with AK47's. How did we get to Somalia in this debate?

Hell, if governments were the answer, Somalia should be heaven on earth. Afterall, they had the UN in there. Every damn government in the world, working for the Somali people. How lucky could one group of people get?

[REDREX]

Can someone bring me up to speed with the whole Somalia dealio? I don't see either businesses or governments doing much of anything there. Seems kind of like a state of nature, with AK47's. How did we get to Somalia in this debate?

Hell, if governments were the answer, Somalia should be heaven on earth. Afterall, they had the UN in there. Every damn government in the world, working for the Somali people. How lucky could one group of people get?---It is a stupid discussion don't get involved in it

[BigTip]

Midtowner will never get, or admit he gets, the whole point of all this. I will continue the debate though so that others reading this might have some thoughts to convey to people they might get into a discussion with about this topic.

Back to topic. If government is responsible for business success, why is not everyone in business for themselves? If government will insure success, then I can easily turn my business over to a key employee and they will have no problem surviving, yes? Heck, I could even turn it over to Midtowner, because the government will insure his success.
Sounds ridiculous does it not? It does because we all know that business fail all the time. It takes a special skill as well as some luck to succeed in a business.

Here is another point.

Things that allow business to thrive and exist:

Government: Provides infrastructure and support
Customers: Source of needed income
Investors: Allows start up cash and funds during slow times, or for needed reinvestment.
Vendors: Provides goods and services at prices allowing profit
Owner: Orchestrates the other things to operate profitably

Things that cause business to fail:


Government: Over regulation that hampers operation
Customers: Not enough income to cover expenses
Investors: Refusing to infuse any more when needed
Vendors: Provides goods and services at prices that do NOT allow profitability
Owner: Unable to orchestrate the other things to operate profitably

So yes, of course we NEED government to exist. As we do several things. But these same things are also the cause of failures.
Existing and succeeding are two different things.
The credit for success goes to the person that manages all the factors to insure it.
The vendor is not managing the customers.
The investor is not managing the government in relation to the business.
The customer is not managing the government.
It is the OWNER that makes it happen, using the other things that are there.


And by the way, the deflection about Somalia is laughable. The only mention of it was to illustrate that business can exist without government.

[rock on sooner]

---It is a stupid discussion don't get involved in it

^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[TitoMorelli]

http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/tumblr_m7bd74wEH31r5hmxwo1_400.jpg

http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/tumblr_m7bd89DL9q1r5hmxwo1_400.jpg

http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/tumblr_m7bd8rXb2Y1r5hmxwo1_400.jpg

[Midtowner]

Without significant public investment in aviation regulation (the FAA) and infrastructure, what happened at Kitty Hawk would be pretty meaningless. Without significant investment in public roads, traffic signals, etc., the automobile wouldn't have overtaken rail as our primary method of travel. Without strong patent laws, there wouldn't be anything special about Apple products.

[KantoSooner]

Actually, the really IS very little special about Apple products. The MP3 player existed long before the iPod, cellphones long before the iPhone, etc.
What Apple does is to perfect and coordinate manufacturing of these products in such a way that the gizmo's actually work so much better than like products that they create enhanced value.
Though Apple is a vicious defender of its patents, the IP sector of their business is far less important than their design know-how and mastery of supplier chain management.

Mid, normally you and I get along fairly well. Mellow on this one. There are things governemnts do that simply can't be handled better by the private sector. The military, for example. And there really is a value to and a skill set required to succeed in business. And that skill set and value tends to be hated by those in government.
It's my belief that those in government tend to hate business precisely because business is an example of individualism (to a great extent) and those who work in government dont' want to see individualism or individual freedom succeed as it tends to undercut their authority.
But there might be other reasons.

[BigTip]

Without significant public investment in aviation regulation (the FAA) and infrastructure, what happened at Kitty Hawk would be pretty meaningless.

LOL, I am just sure that the Wright brothers worked so hard to make a flying machine in hopes that the government would create a bureaucracy to regulate it twenty years later!

LOL LOL. This one really did make me laugh out loud.

[IBleedCrimson]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7be2mN7Es1rbxfido1_500.jpg

[Midtowner]

Actually, the really IS very little special about Apple products. The MP3 player existed long before the iPod, cellphones long before the iPhone, etc.
What Apple does is to perfect and coordinate manufacturing of these products in such a way that the gizmo's actually work so much better than like products that they create enhanced value.
Though Apple is a vicious defender of its patents, the IP sector of their business is far less important than their design know-how and mastery of supplier chain management.

Mid, normally you and I get along fairly well. Mellow on this one. There are things governemnts do that simply can't be handled better by the private sector. The military, for example. And there really is a value to and a skill set required to succeed in business. And that skill set and value tends to be hated by those in government.
It's my belief that those in government tend to hate business precisely because business is an example of individualism (to a great extent) and those who work in government dont' want to see individualism or individual freedom succeed as it tends to undercut their authority.
But there might be other reasons.

You're ascribing a single motivation to a huge number of individual actors. In truth, government probably trusts businesses too much. Just look at the disasters which occurred in the wake of the repeal of Glass Steagall or the allowance of self-regulation of deep sea drilling rigs.

[Midtowner]

LOL, I am just sure that the Wright brothers worked so hard to make a flying machine in hopes that the government would create a bureaucracy to regulate it twenty years later!

LOL LOL. This one really did make me laugh out loud.

The Wright Brothers never made it too far past flying exhibitions. Of course your first commercial airlines started out as government contractors carrying the U.S. mail. No, they didn't build it without the help of the government.

[KantoSooner]

You're ascribing a single motivation to a huge number of individual actors. In truth, government probably trusts businesses too much. Just look at the disasters which occurred in the wake of the repeal of Glass Steagall or the allowance of self-regulation of deep sea drilling rigs.

I'd be very interested in seeing what would happen if our government spent time and energy enforcing laws that are on the books. We have numerous regulatory structures that likely would have caught much of the behaviour that led to the 2008 collapse. Why weren't these laws enforced? This is not a question that our government has shown much interest in asking. On the other hand, the call has gone out loudly to pass new laws.

With an ever expanding body of laws that are not enforced, you breed uncertainty in those to be regulated and contempt for the regulations and regulators.

We either need to enforce what we've got or strike the laws. With no laws at all, at least you know you're on your own and will likely not take stupid risks.

To answer your two examples directly: none of the regulations which should have covered the repeal of GS were enforced. Likewise, the Deepwater disaster resulted from deviations from obvious good drilling standards (little things like substituting sea water for mud. "Gee, what can go wrong?") Inspections weren't conducted and no one called them on it. It wasn't an absence of regulations, but an absence of regulation.

[Midtowner]

This has all been made possible by complicit Bush and Obama administrations.

We don't have much of a choice in Romney--someone who is basically preemptively celebrating how he'd further deflate the regulators.

We've gone from a predictable and regulated economy to one which is more like a public highway--you can speed every day for your whole life and very possibly never get caught. Some folks will, but generally speaking, your chances of being pulled over for breaking traffic laws are pretty low.

[cleller]

It's kind of like the example of building codes preventing your neighbors from constructing homes with bubblegum and duct tape. The regulations are generally aimed at the common good, not the individual business' good. So yes, requiring scrubbers on coal plants is sure as hell going to hamper business, but it's also going to save lives. It's always a tradeoff operating a business and living in a civil society. If you believe in the concept that your right to swing your fist ends at your neighbor's nose, most of these regs make sense.


If the government always made the right and rational choice, a lot of deregulation would have been repealed following the crash of the Bush economy. Thinking that Congress is going to act rationally is just...irrational.

So, the government is always right except when they are wrong, and then its Bush's fault?

Bush had a lot of help with that crash by people that thought it was a good idea for the government to nudge the banks into giving mortgages to folks who were too irresponsible. That was Clinton's game, and how banks became too big to fail.

[Sooner5030]

my favorite

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7bf6mdDG31rbxfido1_500.jpg

http://didntbuildthat.com/

[TitoMorelli]

my favorite

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7bf6mdDG31rbxfido1_500.jpg

http://didntbuildthat.com/

Good one.

Liked this one also--

http://cdn.pjmedia.com/tatler/files/2012/07/obama-success2.jpg

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/07/17/barack-obama-the-great-demotivator/?singlepage=true

[LiveLaughLove]

Good one.

Liked this one also--

http://cdn.pjmedia.com/tatler/files/2012/07/obama-success2.jpg

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/07/17/barack-obama-the-great-demotivator/?singlepage=true

Funny stuff. The guy is becoming a caricature of himself isn't he? I thought I was dreaming when I heard he had said this. Couldn't possibly be, could it?

It's been enjoyable watching the lib's defend Dear Leader's totally anti-American statements. They have ranged from the asinine to the sublime. Sublime idiocy.

This nation was founded on business. Business has been it's driving engine since inception. Period.

The American Dream is NOT having government give you handouts. In fact, it doesn't have anything to do with government at all! No where.

The government wouldn't exist without business' taxes. The internet was built with taxes paid by business and the wealthy. The roads were built by business and wealthy folks taxes. The President is paid, protected, transported, and catered to lavishly by business and wealthy folks taxes. He plays golf (quite a bit) on the dime of business and the wealthy. Joe Biden has had numerous brain transplants because of the taxes provided by business and the wealthy.

Now what is true is this. Obama, Clinton, Pelosi, Reid, and most other politicians have gone from not wealthy to exceedingly wealthy because of government. So when he speaks of what government has done, he is correct, for him and his kickback taking, insider trading ilk. Isn't it amazing. So he was speaking from experience. His. Just not anyone else's. Except other liberal politicians.

I hope he keeps saying this, and bases his whole campaign on it. Make it his slogan. I have a feeling that was not scripted, and he left the farm. I have a feeling his campaign manager freaked out when he said it.

Lib's here, keep telling us how much we should be in love with the government and how much we "owe" the government. I haven't enjoyed a thread this much in a while, watching all of the twisting and contorting. It's like a good game of Twister. Carry on.

[Midtowner]

So, the government is always right except when they are wrong, and then its Bush's fault?

Bush had a lot of help with that crash by people that thought it was a good idea for the government to nudge the banks into giving mortgages to folks who were too irresponsible. That was Clinton's game, and how banks became too big to fail.

If you're trying to talk about the CRA, that ship sailed numerous times. Factually, if you care about those, you're talking about around 15% or so of the total foreclosures. CRA investments tend to be pretty good deals for most banks.

Bush's only fault was not doing anything in light of the looming storm. I blame Obama just as much for not acting when Tim Geither knew damn well that LIBOR was being manipulated. The crash did happen on Bush's watch though, so sure as you're blaming Obama for sluggish growth, Bush owns the massive crash at the end of his presidency after he had 8 years to fix things.

Clinton signed what made it all possible of course. Bush just had a long time to fix things and just baaaaarreeely didn't get it to pass it off to the next guy. Nice try though.

[Midtowner]

I'd be very interested in seeing what would happen if our government spent time and energy enforcing laws that are on the books. We have numerous regulatory structures that likely would have caught much of the behaviour that led to the 2008 collapse. Why weren't these laws enforced? This is not a question that our government has shown much interest in asking. On the other hand, the call has gone out loudly to pass new laws.

The biggest problem with the regulatory state is that they're being asked to fight with one... or both hands tied behind their back. How in the heck do you expect the SEC New York office to do battle with the highest paid lawyers in the world when they can't even afford to make their copies in house? Both Bush, now Obama have had a frightening history of not funding our regulators and all indicators point to a bubble starting to fill up again. Personally, I'm about to liquidate my 401K to pay off my student loans, so as long as the bubble holds for another year or so, I'm good.

Our body of laws isn't expanding at a huge rate and the issue of uncertainty isn't that big of a deal. Rulemaking in administrative agencies is a deliberately slow and involved process which seeks outside input and often incorporates it into rules.

I agree that as far as the SEC goes, we either need to get rid of them entirely and let private actors step in to do the job or properly fund them. Bad bankers need to be going to prison at an unprecedented rate about now.

We probably agree on more things than we disagree on.

[cleller]

We're all really getting off track, though. Obama's just trying to tear others down to build himself up. Romney's family has made a ton of cash, and done it with their hands and brains. What they've got, they got themselves. If they want to keep it, that drives Obama crazy. Gotta spread that wealth, comrade.

Obama has just glided thru life from one academic hand out to political handouts, ultimately living of tax money. Government is his sugar teet, and he has to build it up. Funny that his rival is from the business world, and now he starts this mantra.

Can you go out and start a business or work for yourself these days without a lawyer, accountant, and insurance man holding your hand to guide you thru the pitfalls laid before you? Think that will improve with Obama in office?

[marfacowboy]

This nation was founded on business. Business has been it's driving engine since inception. Period.


Reductive non-sense. It's always been about balance between sound government and private interests. The message is clear as to what happens when that balance is lost, in either direction.
The only thing that is remotely true and inferred in your post is the fact that the number one objective in this nation has always been the protection of private property and interests.

[TitoMorelli]

The biggest problem with the regulatory state is that they're being asked to fight with one... or both hands tied behind their back. How in the heck do you expect the SEC New York office to do battle with the highest paid lawyers in the world when they can't even afford to make their copies in house? Both Bush, now Obama have had a frightening history of not funding our regulators and all indicators point to a bubble starting to fill up again. Personally, I'm about to liquidate my 401K to pay off my student loans, so as long as the bubble holds for another year or so, I'm good.

Our body of laws isn't expanding at a huge rate and the issue of uncertainty isn't that big of a deal. Rulemaking in administrative agencies is a deliberately slow and involved process which seeks outside input and often incorporates it into rules.

I agree that as far as the SEC goes, we either need to get rid of them entirely and let private actors step in to do the job or properly fund them. Bad bankers need to be going to prison at an unprecedented rate about now.

We probably agree on more things than we disagree on.

Perhaps the significant problem many have is that whatever measures Big Brother takes, they're more burdensome and costly for the relatively ethical small business owners, who don't have the high-powered legal beagles at their disposal, and who can't grease politicians' palms. But since they're low hanging fruit, they're tossed (not just rhetorically but also literally) into the same pot as the "evil rich" that Obama and his fellow whiners continually target, except their lives and businesses suffer even more from government dictates. Yet Obama is telling them that they owe everybody else for whatever they've carved out by their own resourcefulness, dedication ans sweat, and should show their gratitude by digging deeper and deeper.

[LiveLaughLove]

Reductive non-sense. It's always been about balance between sound government and private interests. The message is clear as to what happens when that balance is lost, in either direction.
The only thing that is remotely true and inferred in your post is the fact that the number one objective in this nation has always been the protection of private property and interests.
So you think when the patriots were throwing tea into Boston harbor they were doing so for equal parts government and freedom to run their businesses without the taxation tyranny? Really?!

Get a clue. Use a life line. Ask Jeeves. Do something to wake up from your liberal haze.

There's a whole free world out there to discover.

[yermom]

i asked this a while back and never got a response that i remember, but can you give me an example of this ideal paradise where there is no regulation on business, little tax and everything is great?

[diverdog]

So you think when the patriots were throwing tea into Boston harbor they were doing so for equal parts government and freedom to run their businesses without the taxation tyranny? Really?!

Get a clue. Use a life line. Ask Jeeves. Do something to wake up from your liberal haze.

There's a whole free world out there to discover.

The Tea Party was against a monopolistic multinational corporation the East India Company. It was about home grown businesses fighting against a huge corporation.

[Sooner5030]

i asked this a while back and never got a response that i remember, but can you give me an example of this ideal paradise where there is no regulation on business, little tax and everything is great?

Merika Circa 1912.....very few places since have offered that much freedom.

Many would argue that Costa Rica, Belize, and the Philippines provide for more individual freedom but in some cases have higher "effective" income tax rates.....although more straight forward IMO.

You and your buddies sure do use Somalia alot in your arguments....not sure why as it would the last place I'd go to be an expat......I'd go to Kurdistan or Northern Afghanistan before I'd go to Somalia.

[olevetonahill]

Oh yes the Government, Where every one has a Level playing field, (If Ya Know who to bribe that is)

Seven charged in Chicago with taking fake U.S. grants like "candy"

http://news.yahoo.com/seven-charged-chicago-taking-fake-u-grants-candy-232308064.html

[yermom]

ah yes, the good old days of 1912

i don't really know, but i'm not buying the Phillipines.

Belize doesn't really count. it's basically the US isn't it?

i don't know about Costa Rica, but i don't think there are a whole lot of multinational corporations there.

do any of those countries not live off of the scraps of the US?

[BigTip]

There might be hope in this world.
I had my wife, an Obama supporter, read the article. She is a typical liberal. Never listens to logic, etc.
She read the article. She paused. Then she said, "That's socialism." And then she was quiet for a minute.
I truly believe that it might have educated her.

[Sooner5030]

ah yes, the good old days of 1912

i don't really know, but i'm not buying the Phillipines.

Belize doesn't really count. it's basically the US isn't it?

i don't know about Costa Rica, but i don't think there are a whole lot of multinational corporations there.

do any of those countries not live off of the scraps of the US?

Yermom......it is very hard to answer your question because most of the places that have low taxes and efficient government are too saturated with people for me to want to be an expat in that area. I'd say that Hong Kong, Singapore, & Mauritius (sp) all have lower income tax rates, less regulation, more efficient government intervention yet have lower government spending (as a % of GDP) when compared to the US. Other countries like Australia & South Korea have less regulation, more economic freedoms but higher tax rates than the US. If you want to go to a developed country you better be prepared to pick your poison.

I want cheap land, good climate, access to water, property rights/protection, sunshine, and less regulation.....even at the expense of higher income tax rates and living in a less developed area. That is why places like Belize, Costa Rica, and the Philippines are starting to become very attractive for american expats.......that and the cost of living is alot cheaper compared to the developed asian countries.

Not sure how any of these countries are living off of US scraps though.

[yermom]

i'm talking about a model for the US here

sure, there are better places to retire, but what economic powerhouse has a better system than we do?

[Sooner5030]

i'm talking about a model for the US here

sure, there are better places to retire, but what economic powerhouse has a better system than we do?

There is no model for the US. We are unique in so many ways it'd be impossible to emulate some other country in a hope to achieve the same metrics. Many societies value education and healthy living (South Korea, Hong Kong, etc.) so they pay less to address these issues.

We also have too many stakeholders that do not want any significant change.....Unions, large-corporations, AARP, etc....and they are too connected to the elections and the legislative process to let go of their grip.

BK, debt repudiation, and reset are about the only things that will cure our ills....IMO. That way we will only provide the level of government services that we can fund through actual tax revenue.

[diverdog]

Yermom......it is very hard to answer your question because most of the places that have low taxes and efficient government are too saturated with people for me to want to be an expat in that area. I'd say that Hong Kong, Singapore, & Mauritius (sp) all have lower income tax rates, less regulation, more efficient government intervention yet have lower government spending (as a % of GDP) when compared to the US. Other countries like Australia & South Korea have less regulation, more economic freedoms but higher tax rates than the US. If you want to go to a developed country you better be prepared to pick your poison.

I want cheap land, good climate, access to water, property rights/protection, sunshine, and less regulation.....even at the expense of higher income tax rates and living in a less developed area. That is why places like Belize, Costa Rica, and the Philippines are starting to become very attractive for american expats.......that and the cost of living is alot cheaper compared to the developed asian countries.

Not sure how any of these countries are living off of US scraps though.

You are living in lala land if you think Belize is the answer. Their debt to GDP ratio is off the charts and I mean off the charts. And as a expat you are not going to be able to find cheap land, good climate, access to water and property rights protection in 99% of the countries out there. To be honest you have no idea how good you have it here in the United States.

BTW I am willing to bet your tax burden is lower in the US than in many of those countries you mentioned.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/are-taxes-in-the-u-s-high-or-low/

[Sooner5030]

You are living in lala land if you think Belize is the answer. Their debt to GDP ratio is off the charts and I mean off the charts. And as a expat you are not going to be able to find cheap land, good climate, access to water and property rights protection in 99% of the countries out there. To be honest you have no idea how good you have it here in the United States.

BTW I am willing to bet your tax burden is lower in the US than in many of those countries you mentioned.

First of all "good" is an opinion so stop assuming you can define what I would consider "good". That's the problem with you f-ing people is you think everyone should live like you....or want to live like you.

Belize debt is about 80% of it's GDP.....and my livelihood in Belize would not be tied to their default.

[Midtowner]

That is why places like Belize, Costa Rica, and the Philippines are starting to become very attractive for american expats.......that and the cost of living is alot cheaper compared to the developed asian countries.

Had a client with a very successful yacht repair business in Costa Rica a few years back. I guess they didn't grease the right palms 'cuz the government took their business from them.

Libertarian paradise fo' sho'.

[Sooner5030]

Had a client with a very successful yacht repair business in Costa Rica a few years back. I guess they didn't grease the right palms 'cuz the government took their business from them.

Libertarian paradise fo' sho'.

thanks for the anecdote....i'll be sure and not confuse it for data. I wonder if any US government agency has ever confiscated property? Illegal fishing? drug running?

[diverdog]

First of all "good" is an opinion so stop assuming you can define what I would consider "good". That's the problem with you f-ing people is you think everyone should live like you....or want to live like you.

Belize debt is about 80% of it's GDP.....and my livelihood in Belize would not be tied to their default.

You couldn't live like me. I spend 50-60 days a year living in a tent and carrying what I need on my back. I do not need much to be happy and if the chit hits the fan I could live in a tent and eat rice and beans and be fine.

Here is the tax structure for the world. You will see the US is low:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2221rank.html?countryName=Belize&countryCode=bh&regionCode=cam&rank=110#bh

[Sooner5030]

You couldn't live like me. I spend 50-60 days a year living in a tent and carrying what I need on my back. I do not need much to be happy and if the chit hits the fan I could live in a tent and eat rice and beans and be fine.

Here is the tax structure for the world. You will see the US is low:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2221rank.html?countryName=Belize&countryCode=bh®ionCode=cam&rank=110#bh

Your table states that it compares the taxes collected by the national governments and compares them to GDP. That's great except not every country has the same level or division of government from muni/localities/states to the national level. Also, according to your table Costa Rica, Singapore and the Philippines have lower rates that the US.

The main point was refuting the claim that a more free or libertarian US will somehow turn into Somalia. Not sure why I even bother replying to these claims.........lesson learned I guess.

[olevetonahill]

The main point was refuting the claim that a more free or libertarian US will somehow turn into Somalia. Not sure why I even bother replying to these claims.........lesson learned I guess.

Cause you just like to do this :D
http://bitchspot.jadedragononline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/head-against-wall.jpg

[yermom]

Your table states that it compares the taxes collected by the national governments and compares them to GDP. That's great except not every country has the same level or division of government from muni/localities/states to the national level. Also, according to your table Costa Rica, Singapore and the Philippines have lower rates that the US.

The main point was refuting the claim that a more free or libertarian US will somehow turn into Somalia. Not sure why I even bother replying to these claims.........lesson learned I guess.

that's not the claim. you keep saying businesses don't need government. Somalia is just a good example of ****ty/no government

[LiveLaughLove]

What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?

No one is advocating (that I've read) zero government. Just less. That's less. I am saying less. What I mean is less!

How freaking hard is that to understand? Obama is claiming we owe everything to government.

We say bull hockey. If we had less government intrusion, he would be rocking a better economy and on his way to reelection.

That's less for you partisan hacks. What i'm trying to say is less. Get it?

You guys are so dogmatic, including Obama, that you just can't get it.

Did I say less government, not zero? Because what I mean is less freaking government!

[rock on sooner]

What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?

No one is advocating (that I've read) zero government. Just less. That's less. I am saying less. What I mean is less!

How freaking hard is that to understand? Obama is claiming we owe everything to government.

We say bull hockey. If we had less government intrusion, he would be rocking a better economy and on his way to reelection.

That's less for you partisan hacks. What i'm trying to say is less. Get it?

You guys are so dogmatic, including Obama, that you just can't get it.

Did I say less government, not zero? Because what I mean is less freaking government!

Triple L, I agree with the less gov't ideal, but do disagree with you that
Obama sez we owe EVERYTHING to the gov't. I think his point is that good
gov't is an engaged one, not an overbearing one. E.G., an engaged gov't
is coming to the rescue of farmers hit hard by this drought.

[KantoSooner]

We'll see how much 'relief' is aimed at 'The Family Farm' (is there any such thing any more?) and how much is aimed at ADM, Cargill, Braums (now the largest ranching operation in Oklahoma and maybe in OK and TX combined), Bunge and other Fortune 500 'Agri-Business' concerns.
With something under 4% of the population engaged in agriculture, I don't expect too much more than mild hand wringing.

Expect a lot more in the way of life style subsidies to 'The Urban Poor'. There are more of them.

[yermom]

What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?

No one is advocating (that I've read) zero government. Just less. That's less. I am saying less. What I mean is less!

How freaking hard is that to understand? Obama is claiming we owe everything to government.

We say bull hockey. If we had less government intrusion, he would be rocking a better economy and on his way to reelection.

That's less for you partisan hacks. What i'm trying to say is less. Get it?

You guys are so dogmatic, including Obama, that you just can't get it.

Did I say less government, not zero? Because what I mean is less freaking government!

so the government does have a non-zero amount to do with a business' success?

[KantoSooner]

Sure it does. In the sense that law and order is nice on the one hand and if government can restrain itself from doing harm (for instance, on BS paperwork and the wasting of tax money on cockamamie projects), then it can be a more or less benign actor.

[Sooner98]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7be0bn4Cq1rbxfido1_1280.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7bf00iswJ1rbxfido1_500.png

http://www.bloodhoundrealty.com/BloodhoundBlog/Beethoven.png

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7bbtnmSoP1rbxfido1_r1_400.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7b9j7dcjH1rbxfido1_500.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7bqbs49HV1rbxfido1_r1_500.png

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7brakFk3h1rbxfido1_400.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rwNmY.png

[LiveLaughLove]

so the government does have a non-zero amount to do with a business' success?

Look dear leader said what he said for three reasons.

First and foremost it was class politics. He needs desperately to energize his base. Everyone knows a large majority of the undecided vote will break for the challenger, barring a catastrophe.

Its laughable that this guy was ever considered a uniter. His political history shows zero unity. It shows divisiveness, and manipulation.

Second, he wants to cowtow business over raising taxes, and possibly even get their endorsement.

Lastly, he really believes this crap. He believes no individual can function without a strong, not minimal, federal government. HIS strong federal government.

His statement does not imply in the slightest that he is talking about a minimal federal government.

[yermom]

businesses in the US get a head start with infrastructure and general stability due to the government. that isn't really debatable.

you are just putting a crazy spin on it.

he could talk about how cancer is bad and you people would find some way to criticize it.

why is he talking about cancer?! i wish Obama would mind his own business and stay out of my personal life!

i'm sure there would have been some random assortment of capital letters in there somewhere though

[LiveLaughLove]

businesses in the US get a head start with infrastructure and general stability due to the government. that isn't really debatable.

you are just putting a crazy spin on it.

he could talk about how cancer is bad and you people would find some way to criticize it.

why is he talking about cancer?! i wish Obama would mind his own business and stay out of my personal life!

i'm sure there would have been some random assortment of capital letters in there somewhere though

The only crazy in the room is the guy that said it.

If its just so blatantly obvious that people don't build their own businesses, then why is he the first to say it?

If all businesses ceased to exist, how would those roads get built? Who would pay for police? Fire?

In fact, private businesses contact those roads jobs. Who's to say a consortium of businesses couldn't have gotten together and paid the same contractor to build those same roads.

A government will cease to exist in any truly functioning way without tax revenue from business.

Your cancer shlock is just whining.
I love it. :)

[diverdog]

Diverdogs day:Take application for business loan and line of credit. Submit for SBA guarantee.Close SBA loan for working capital and build out.Have lunch with economic director for local county. Review proposal for participation loan using USDA money to get a lower blended rate for clients opening downtown businesses. Loans to be administered by local banks.Meet with government contractor to renew letter of credit for export products.Drive 1 hour to meet with a SCORE mentor to help client develop business plan.Eat Vietnamese food.Go on message board to see that the righties are still arguing the government does not help businesses.Bashes head against bar saying over and over voters are stupid.

[olevetonahill]

DD have you ever tried to get an SBA loan? Not so easy .

[pphilfran]

Diverdogs day:Take application for business loan and line of credit. Submit for SBA guarantee.Close SBA loan for working capital and build out.Have lunch with economic director for local county. Review proposal for participation loan using USDA money to get a lower blended rate for clients opening downtown businesses. Loans to be administered by local banks.Meet with government contractor to renew letter of credit for export products.Drive 1 hour to meet with a SCORE mentor to help client develop business plan.Eat Vietnamese food.Go on message board to see that the righties are still arguing the government does not help businesses.Bashes head against bar saying over and over voters are stupid.

DD...it is all of that head bashing that has ****ed you up....

[diverdog]

DD have you ever tried to get an SBA loan? Not so easy .

Unfortunately yes. I still owe $65000 on my SBA loan from a business I closed. My business partner took off and left me on the hook for his share.

The bank I work for does a lot of SBA lending. We are number 6 nationally for SBA lending and I do several loans myself. I am not an expert in SBA lending but I have great internal partners that get me through it. The same holds true for doing letters of credit.

My bank has a very good SBA unit and we actively seek borrowers who need an SBA guarantee. Generally the loans perform well.

[pphilfran]

Unfortunately yes. I still owe $65000 on my SBA loan from a business I closed. My business partner took off and left me on the hook for his share.

The bank I work for does a lot of SBA lending. We are number 6 nationally for SBA lending and I do several loans myself. I am not an expert in SBA lending but I have great internal partners that get me through it.

Damn Apple....

Nothing better than paying for something you don't own...

Back in my 20's I had a loan for a stereo...it was then ripped off...writing that check every month tended to raise my hackles...

[olevetonahill]

Unfortunately yes. I still owe $65000 on my SBA loan from a business I closed. My business partner took off and left me on the hook for his share.

The bank I work for does a lot of SBA lending. We are number 6 nationally for SBA lending and I do several loans myself. I am not an expert in SBA lending but I have great internal partners that get me through it. The same holds true for doing letters of credit.

My bank has a very good SBA unit and we actively seek borrowers who need an SBA guarantee. Generally the loans perform well.

Then you know they are not easy to obtain nor speedy.

[diverdog]

Then you know they are not easy to obtain nor speedy.

I did not have a problem.

[diverdog]

Damn Apple....

Nothing better than paying for something you don't own...

Back in my 20's I had a loan for a stereo...it was then ripped off...writing that check every month tended to raise my hackles...

I am over it. **** happens. That is not to say I cannot wait for the day I sue my business partner.

[olevetonahill]

I did not have a problem.

Guess you just waltzed in and got ya a GI home loan at the same time.

[pphilfran]

Vet...

DD is an over leveraged, one eyed, disabled, illegal, Somalian, transvestite, vegetarian...on top of that he is a banker...

He was a slam dunk for a loan...

[LiveLaughLove]

Diverdogs day:Take application for business loan and line of credit. Submit for SBA guarantee.Close SBA loan for working capital and build out.Have lunch with economic director for local county. Review proposal for participation loan using USDA money to get a lower blended rate for clients opening downtown businesses. Loans to be administered by local banks.Meet with government contractor to renew letter of credit for export products.Drive 1 hour to meet with a SCORE mentor to help client develop business plan.Eat Vietnamese food.Go on message board to see that the righties are still arguing the government does not help businesses.Bashes head against bar saying over and over voters are stupid.

You're bragging about doing all of that, and calling us stupid?

http://100startup.com/

Small business, you're doing it wrong.

[diverdog]

You're bragging about doing all of that, and calling us stupid?

http://100startup.com/

Small business, you're doing it wrong.

No I am not bragging at all. It is my job and it is what I do or have done for 15 years. When I meet with a business owner it is my job to find solutions to their problems. Sometime that involves a 50% SBA guarantee and other times it is filing a UCC on assets or having assignments of rents. The SBA is one tool that we like to use.

My point is the government is very involved in the business community whether it is helping to undderwrite loans, promoting economic development or allowing certain tax incentives/structures to intice businesses to come into a community. Most states have pools of money and grants to do everything from helping minority businesses get started to help retain a current business. This entire mantra that government hates businesses is silly.

[pphilfran]

DD...it is not this one statement...

He has had a history of calling out business (mostly big business), raking them over the coals, threatening them with higher taxes, and then wondering why they are not expanding at a rate he finds acceptable...

He has done more the divide the country then bring it together...

[diverdog]

Guess you just waltzed in and got ya a GI home loan at the same time.

Vet, i did my homework before I went in. We sat down with the previous owner and got three years of tax returns and we did a business plan. The business plan took some work. The business I purchased was around for 18 years. The lender was a friend of mine at the bank and since I kept my job I was a sure bet. On top of that I had plenty of cash.

What killed me was I did not do enough due diligence on my partner.

If you are trying to get an SBA loan PM me and I will try to help. You cannot short cut the process.

[olevetonahill]

Vet, i did my homework before I went in. We sat down with the previous owner and got three years of tax returns and we did a business plan. The business plan took some work. The business I purchased was around for 18 years. The lender was a friend of mine at the bank and since I kept my job I was a sure bet. On top of that I had plenty of cash.

What killed me was I did not do enough due diligence on my partner.

If you are trying to get an SBA loan PM me and I will try to help. You cannot short cut the process.

Im too dayum old to start sompun new now. I just remember the few times I had experience with folks who tried to get one the only guy I know who was successful it took him almost a year

[diverdog]

DD...it is not this one statement...

He has had a history of calling out business (mostly big business), raking them over the coals, threatening them with higher taxes, and then wondering why they are not expanding at a rate he finds acceptable...

He has done more the divide the country then bring it together....

Phil:

Some businesses need to be raked over the coals. Namely the big investment banks.

[diverdog]

Im too dayum old to start sompun new now. I just remember the few times I had experience with folks who tried to get one the only guy I know who was successful it took him almost a year

He had a bad lender. My typical deal takes about 2-3 months. A lot of that is just getting SBA required paperwork.

The business I closed on today took two months and the biggest wait was getting a franchise certification from the franchisor (sp).

Quite honestly there is not a whole lot of difference on the traditional lending side and SBA lending for a start up.

[pphilfran]

.

Phil:

Some businesses need to be raked over the coals. Namely the big investment banks.

I don't have a problem with that...surprising that a bunch of the jerks that caused the mess rose like a Phoenix from the ashes and went to work for Obama...

You drag the sorry crooks to court and not abuse those that played within the rules...group *** eating rarely accomplish the intended goal...

You don't go on TV and roast entire sectors because they ain't hiring and they have cash on hand...

I think he is slimy in the way he operates....

[diverdog]

Cute. I chose another way.
I crafted a business plan based on an idea and raised $2 million in VC dollars to build it. I did all the financial planning and 50% of the planning to the build the datacenter. I wrote in equity for the employees and sold in 2011. Everyone kept their jobs, salaries and insurance in the new deal. We're stronger than ever. Two years and you get four weeks paid vacation. Generous time for sickness, family, odds and ends. I don't believe anyone has ever taken all the vacation they're entitled to since 2005. We have zero turnover and the lowest customer churn in the industry.

VC is something that really interest me. Do you mind if I ask who you used?

You sound like a great boss.

[diverdog]

I don't have a problem with that...surprising that a bunch of the jerks that caused the mess rose like a Phoenix from the ashes and went to work for Obama...

You drag the sorry crooks to court and not abuse those that played within the rules...group *** eating rarely accomplish the intended goal...

You don't go on TV and roast entire sectors because they ain't hiring and they have cash on hand...

I think he is slimy in the way he operates....

I agree on some of your points.

Today I heard a wild stat but I do not know if it is true. The average Congressman who goes to work as a DC lobbiest makes a million per year. A Senator doing the same thing makes three million per year and their staffers could make three hundred and fifty thousand per year.

[pphilfran]

Obama is not a VC supporter...

[pphilfran]

I agree on some of your points.

Today I heard a wild stat but I do not know if it is true. The average Congressman who goes to work as a DC lobbiest makes a million per year. A Senator doing the same thing makes three million per year and their staffers could make three hundred and fifty thousand per year.

I am just sick of the whole mess....

Obama is whining about Romney beating him in election funding because Obama is only going to rake in a billion or so...

It makes me want to puke...

[diverdog]

I am just sick of the whole mess....

Obama is whining about Romney beating him in election funding because Obama is only going to rake in a billion or so...

It makes me want to puke...

I am on the fence on who I will support. Right now I do not like either party because they are dominated by extremist. Romney is a smart guy but he is going to be forced to the right by the tea baggers and I worry about the SCOTUS appointments. If he were a benevolent dictator he might be okay.

[LiveLaughLove]

. This entire mantra that government hates businesses is silly.

Government doesn't but its for dang sure Obama does.

Or at the least, he wants his sycophants to.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -- look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.
The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

Is this really so horrible?

[BigTip]

Is this really so horrible?

Not if you are a socialist. "All for the mother land!" "The collective will take care of you" "You owe everything to your government."

If you are an American, then yes, it is horrible. Extremely horrible. That is the point of this whole thread. So shockingly horrible that hopefully those on the fence in this election will decide that reelecting this man will put the USA on a short road to ruin.

[TitoMorelli]

Worthwhile online column by John Kass of the Chicago Tribune, titled "Who else, Mr. President?" You may need to google the title in order to gain access - here's a portion of it:




When President Barack Obama hauled off and slapped American small-business owners in the mouth the other day, I wanted to dream of my father.

But I didn't have to close my eyes to see my dad. I could do it with my eyes open.

All I had to do was think of the driveway of our home, and my dad's car gone before dawn, that old white Chrysler with a push-button transmission. It always started, but there was a hole in the floor and his feet got wet in the rain. So he patched it with concrete mix and kept on driving it to the little supermarket he ran with my Uncle George.

He'd return home long after dark, physically and mentally exhausted, take a plate of food, talk with us for a few minutes, then flop in that big chair in front of the TV. Even before his cigarette was out, he'd begin to snore.

The next day he'd wake up and do it again. Day after day, decade after decade. Weekdays and weekends, no vacations, no time to see our games, no money for extras, not even forMcDonald's. My dad and Uncle George, and my mom and my late Aunt Mary, killing themselves in their small supermarket on the South Side of Chicago.

There was no federal bailout money for us. No Republican corporate welfare. No Democratic handouts. No bipartisan lobbyists working the angles. No Tony Rezkos. No offshore accounts. No Obama bucks.

Just two immigrant brothers and their families risking everything, balancing on the economic high wire, building a business in America. They sacrificed, paid their bills, counted pennies to pay rent and purchase health care and food and not much else. And for their troubles they were muscled by the politicos, by the city inspectors and the chiselers and the weasels, all those smiling extortionists who held the government hammer over all of our heads.

I thought about this after I heard what Obama told a campaign crowd the other day, speaking about business owners and why they were successful.

"You didn't get there on your own," Obama said. "I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there...."

Somebody else, Mr. President? Who, exactly? Government?

One of my earliest memories as a boy at the store was that of the government men coming from City Hall. One was tall and beefy. The other was wiry. They wanted steaks.

We didn't eat red steaks at home or yellow bananas. We took home the brown bananas and the brown steaks because we couldn't sell them. But the government men liked the big, red steaks, the fat rib-eyes two to a shrink-wrapped package. You could put 20 or so in a shopping bag.

"Thanks, Greek," they'd say.

That was government....


Obama's changed. Gone is that young knight drawing the sword from the stone, selling Hopium to the adoring media, preaching an end to the broken politics of the past. These days, he wears a new presidential persona: the multimillionaire with the Chicago clout, playing the class warrior, fighting for that second term.

And he offers an American dream much different from my father's. Open your eyes and you can see it too. He stands there at the front of the mob, in his shirt sleeves, swinging that government hammer, exhorting the crowd to use its votes and take what it wants.

[OU_Sooners75]

This is really what this is all about. Garden variety racism, still alive and kicking.
Ignorance, followed by fear, hate and often, violence.

First of all you dumb hick, I am probably one few people on this site that is pretty far from racist.

Second of all you dumb hick: If you have nothing to add to the discussion, then STFU and let the adults talk.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Not if you are a socialist. "All for the mother land!" "The collective will take care of you" "You owe everything to your government."

If you are an American, then yes, it is horrible. Extremely horrible. That is the point of this whole thread. So shockingly horrible that hopefully those on the fence in this election will decide that reelecting this man will put the USA on a short road to ruin.
Sensationalist, sensationalist, sensationalist.


And what this reminded me of was that, at the heart of this country, its central idea is the idea that in this country, if you’re willing to work hard, if you’re willing to take responsibility, you can make it if you try. (Applause.) That you can find a job that supports a family and find a home you can make your own; that you won’t go bankrupt when you get sick. That maybe you can take a little vacation with your family once in a while -- nothing fancy, but just time to spend with those you love. Maybe see the country a little bit, maybe come down to Roanoke. (Applause.) That your kids can get a great education, and if they’re willing to work hard, then they can achieve things that you wouldn’t have even imagined achieving. And then you can maybe retire with some dignity and some respect, and be part of a community and give something back.

That’s the idea of America. It doesn’t matter what you look like. It doesn’t matter where you come from. It doesn’t matter what your last name is. You can live out the American Dream. That’s what binds us all together.

[cleller]

Now there are plenty of examples where the government is always most important, and is responsible for all the wonderful things bestowed upon the populace.

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/111219_WS_KimJongIljpgCROPrectangle3-large.jpg

The citizens are enraptured with their government, and despair when they perceive it may be vulnerable.

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/838896-111228-kim.jpg

Further, most of these places do not have the problems we have with obesity; though I don't really think that was intentional.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.


WHAT A COMMUNIST

[BigTip]

Sensationalist, sensationalist, sensationalist.

Exactly.

Just like the guy yelling, "Fire! Fire!" as he runs through a burning building trying to wake up the residents.

[diverdog]

Not if you are a socialist. "All for the mother land!" "The collective will take care of you" "You owe everything to your government."

If you are an American, then yes, it is horrible. Extremely horrible. That is the point of this whole thread. So shockingly horrible that hopefully those on the fence in this election will decide that reelecting this man will put the USA on a short road to ruin.

Obama never said any of that nor was he making any of those points. If there is one big problem in America it is the absolute cozy relationship American business has with the federal government. That is why they have gotten trillions of our tax dollars.

[sappstuf]

There are times where Obama is right. Where a person gets credit for something he did nothing to gain.

For instance:

http://3-ps.googleusercontent.com/h/www.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2012/07/452x469wAyGPM29CQAAa9_M.jpg-medium.jpeg.pagespeed.ic._J7nPRdTdv.webp

[Midtowner]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mKjPl8RPBJM/TtoCyWVfnsI/AAAAAAAACX4/zMBrip2ZlOk/s400/chevrolet-volt.jpg

Actually GM, you really didn't build that.

[BigTip]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mKjPl8RPBJM/TtoCyWVfnsI/AAAAAAAACX4/zMBrip2ZlOk/s400/chevrolet-volt.jpg

Actually GM, you really didn't build that.

Exactly. The government is not good at business investment. See "Solyndra" for an example.

[rock on sooner]

Not if you are a socialist. "All for the mother land!" "The collective will take care of you" "You owe everything to your government."

If you are an American, then yes, it is horrible. Extremely horrible. That is the point of this whole thread. So shockingly horrible that hopefully those on the fence in this election will decide that reelecting this man will put the USA on a short road to ruin.

BigTip, my ancestors came over from Scotland, Ireland and England in the 1600's
and other of my ancestors greeted them when they got here (I've traced back to
the 1400's in Scotland). I tell you this because I was born in OK at the end of WWII
and grew up around Ardmore. I have valid birth certificates, as do my parents so,
by God, I'm an American and as He is my witness this crap that you're spewing is
so far to the right that it lack dignity and sanity! All the man said was that a lot
of people were/are involved in ANYONE becoming successful and it is NOT horrible.
There is, however, a huge government influence involved in allowing you the freedom
to rant like you're doing, so, carry on!

[okie52]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mKjPl8RPBJM/TtoCyWVfnsI/AAAAAAAACX4/zMBrip2ZlOk/s400/chevrolet-volt.jpg

Actually GM, you really didn't build that.

The volt? I'm sure GM would be glad to give the government credit for that failure.

[BigTip]

BigTip, my ancestors came over from Scotland, Ireland and England in the 1600's
and other of my ancestors greeted them when they got here (I've traced back to
the 1400's in Scotland). I tell you this because I was born in OK at the end of WWII
and grew up around Ardmore. I have valid birth certificates, as do my parents so,
by God, I'm an American and as He is my witness this crap that you're spewing is
so far to the right that it lack dignity and sanity! All the man said was that a lot
of people were/are involved in ANYONE becoming successful and it is NOT horrible.
There is, however, a huge government influence involved in allowing you the freedom
to rant like you're doing, so, carry on!

I am sorry to disparage your birthright as an American. I should have said "if you are an American that has even a basic understanding of economics and history"
And isn't America great that we all can have opinions. I feel that Obama's statements are so far to the left that it lacks dignity and sanity!

[okie52]

BigTip, my ancestors came over from Scotland, Ireland and England in the 1600's
and other of my ancestors greeted them when they got here (I've traced back to
the 1400's in Scotland). I tell you this because I was born in OK at the end of WWII
and grew up around Ardmore. I have valid birth certificates, as do my parents so,
by God, I'm an American and as He is my witness this crap that you're spewing is
so far to the right that it lack dignity and sanity! All the man said was that a lot
of people were/are involved in ANYONE becoming successful and it is NOT horrible.
There is, however, a huge government influence involved in allowing you the freedom
to rant like you're doing, so, carry on!

Rock On, Obama really gave some good campaign material in his statement. I thank him for that.

Any semi developed country is going to provide roads, highways and bridges and businesses pay taxes to support those ventures.

Just a few months ago I heard him giving the government credit for the new horizontal and fracking techniques now used in the oil industry. The pioneer in that area was George Mitchell not the US government.

What Obama is quick to discount is the hard work, risk, discipline and ingenuity it takes to create and run a successful business. He11, since someone did it in America he really doesn't deserve any credit at all.

[Skysooner]

George Mitchell actually wasn't the pioneer. He helped with the slickwater frac developments in shales. All of that development was vertical. The horizontal technology was really first tested in the Austin Chalk in the late 1980s and with extended reach drilling. The cementing technology was developed by Shell and Exxon primarily. The slickwater was being used elsewhere. Mitchell got it working in the Barnett vertically. Devon arguably was the company that really unlocked the Barnett.

Also this whole speech was basically saying it is infrastructure that governments are responsible for that helped people succeed. We aren't successful in a vacuum. Honestly I'll likely vote for Romney for my own economic self interests, but it extremist rhetoric like this along with the controlling social agenda of the religious right that makes me wary of trusting most Republican candidates at this point.

[soonercruiser]

Picture, picture on the wall, who's the most Keynesian of them all?

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/SoonerCruiser_photos/Political/Obamalemonadeyoudidntmake.gif

[LiveLaughLove]

First, Obama's a smart guy, right? Professor and all (even though he actually never was one, but I digress).

Supposedly, one of the best teleprompter readers, er, orators of our time in fact, correct? I mean I've heard this I don't know how many times.

He strayed off the reservation the other day. He went solo. He shot off the cuff. He spoke his actual frigging mind.

He was not talking about infrastructure as so many of you are wanting to now claim, when he said, "you didn't build that".

You see it's the THAT in that statement that the left is trying to spin as meaning infrastructure. No a THAT is singular, not plural.

He mentioned those infrastructure items, but when he said "you didn't build THAT", he meant your business.

If he had meant THOSE (plural) other things (plural), he would have said THOSE (plural), or THEM (plural), not THAT (singular), ie "you didn't build THOSE. Someone else made THOSE happen".

He meant what he said. He didn't mean to say it out loud. But he meant it none the less. It's who he is, deep down at his core.

He has no concept, zero in fact, of what it truly takes to start a business from the ground up. He only knows what governments role is in it.

So keep on preachin' it brother! Tell us who you really are, and let's see where it all falls out. And you guys keep fighting the good fight for him, even when you have to spin so much you can't keep your food down!

The rest of the country is finding out what most of us already knew. Who he really is. Really.

[rock on sooner]

BigTip, you are right on about being able to have so many opinions that
are at loggerheads. It IS a great country that is supported by a government
that allows us to have these opinions...the gov't is electged by the people.

Okie, no argument anywhere can convince me that anyone ever built a
business all by his lonesome...there were/are people that supported/gave
input..advice/finances/help. Someone taught/someone said..uh-huh or
nope somewhere along the way. To consider otherwise, I think, is mis-
guided and rather naive. Jes sayin....

BTW, I was in violent withdrawl while the board was down...!

[marfacowboy]

First of all you dumb hick, I am probably one few people on this site that is pretty far from racist.

Second of all you dumb hick: If you have nothing to add to the discussion, then STFU and let the adults talk.

Dumb hick you say.....never been called that before. You're not being very creative with your insults, though. I expected more.

[okie52]

George Mitchell actually wasn't the pioneer. He helped with the slickwater frac developments in shales. All of that development was vertical. The horizontal technology was really first tested in the Austin Chalk in the late 1980s and with extended reach drilling. The cementing technology was developed by Shell and Exxon primarily. The slickwater was being used elsewhere. Mitchell got it working in the Barnett vertically. Devon arguably was the company that really unlocked the Barnett.

Also this whole speech was basically saying it is infrastructure that governments are responsible for that helped people succeed. We aren't successful in a vacuum. Honestly I'll likely vote for Romney for my own economic self interests, but it extremist rhetoric like this along with the controlling social agenda of the religious right that makes me wary of trusting most Republican candidates at this point.

George Mitchell is why Devon was in the Barnett to begin with. Thousands of acres that were HBP and the pipelines and ROWs to support them. I'm all for giving Devon credit for developing the Barnett but the rise in ng prices along with the new drilling/fracking technology
was a nice bit of serendipity.

Extremist rhetoric? So you think Obama isn't really attacking business? That he's not discounting business creators?

This is the same guy that takes credit for a rise in oil and gas production while he shut down 2 whole oceans for exploration. This is a guy that screams about $4,000,000,000 in write offs for the oil industry that are virtually the same write offs that are received by every other business in the manufacturing industry. This is the same guy that exempted unions and their members from $60,000,000,000 in taxes on Cadillac plans...regardless of income. But hes screaming about $4,000,000,000 in write offs by the oil industry? This is the same genius that had the house pass a unilateral cap and trade law. Please point to ANY TIME he ever gave credit to the oil and gas industry.

Hussein also shutdown Yucca after it had been approved by 4 presidents, 21 congresses, the national academy of science and his own energy secretary. But hey...this guys not an extremist.

Social issues by the right...like what....not supporting illegal immigration? Well you've got me there since I certainly don't share obaminibles open border, benefit paying, citizen creating immigration policy.

If I weren't iPad handicapped I would be glad to paste his speech that you found so inspiring...you know the greater good, the collective, the shared sacrifice but primarily you didn't build that business, you aren't that smart and you didn't work that hard.

[Curly Bill]

Everyone knows what Obammy meant in that speech. Anyone who disagrees does so because they drink the Kool Aid, or they're clueless.

[okie52]

Okie, no argument anywhere can convince me that anyone ever built a
business all by his lonesome...there were/are people that supported/gave
input..advice/finances/help. Someone taught/someone said..uh-huh or
nope somewhere along the way. To consider otherwise, I think, is mis-
guided and rather naive. Jes sayin....

BTW, I was in violent withdrawl while the board was down...!

I think you miss the problem with Obama...he doesn't recognize individual effort, risk, creativity or the discipline it takes to run a business...he truly believes it happened because it was with the governments help.

As an oily we can do without obama's type of help and his You didn't build it couldn't have any greater clarity. Look at his actions and statements the past 4 years and see who is being naive.

[okie52]

Everyone knows what Obammy meant in that speech. Anyone who disagrees does so because they drink the Kool Aid, or they're clueless.

Koolaid...with some strong government LSD.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

I think you miss the problem with Obama...he doesn't recognize individual effort, risk, creativity or the discipline it takes to run a business...he truly believes it happened because it was with the governments help.

As an oily we can do without obama's type of help and his You didn't build it couldn't have any greater clarity. Look at his actions and statements the past 4 years and see who is being naive."The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

From later in the speech. But I guess you only take quotes out of context that support your warped ideal that Obama is some horrible communist monster, right?

[olevetonahill]

"The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

From later in the speech. But I guess you only take quotes out of context that support your warped ideal that Obama is some horrible communist monster, right?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0y19_-koaf0/T2OdSP81BLI/AAAAAAAACv0/fGklnqRYy8k/s400/sucka_drank_the_kool_aid_didnt_ya_xlarge.jpeg

[rock on sooner]

I think you miss the problem with Obama...he doesn't recognize individual effort, risk, creativity or the discipline it takes to run a business...he truly believes it happened because it was with the governments help.

As an oily we can do without obama's type of help and his You didn't build it couldn't have any greater clarity. Look at his actions and statements the past 4 years and see who is being naive.

Sorry Okie, but I think what he was saying is exactly opposite of
your contention and,as your being an oily I understand your stance..
just disagree with it.

[Skysooner]

"The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

From later in the speech. But I guess you only take quotes out of context that support your warped ideal that Obama is some horrible communist monster, right?
Well said. It is this kind of extreme hate that makes me question all of what he says. I have found in my life that the more someone pontificates
about a position, the more likely they are going to be found to be wrong.

I guess he didn't see where I said I was leaning Romney. I just hate all of these faux rage things that come from the extreme right. What they don't realize is that they need guys like to me to elect Romney, and I see the world quite differently. I hate the anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc. actions of the extreme right once they get into power. Do what true conservatives should do and stay out of controlling people, spend less on government, etc., and I would be fine with it.

Okie-I worked for Devon during the purchase. You said George Mitchell opened up the shales with horizontal and fracking. He opened up shales with fracking. Horizontal had nothing to do with it. That came later through Devon's initial horizontals.

[okie52]

"The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

From later in the speech. But I guess you only take quotes out of context that support your warped ideal that Obama is some horrible communist monster, right?

Now that's funny. The guy rails "I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there."

Well there are a lot of smart people that don't succeed in business. There are a lot of hardworking people that don't succeed, either.

Then he states " If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

But you cling to something that was nothing more than a footnote to the entire speech and somehow think it represents "balance". You really don't have a clue.

[BigTip]

I have been thinking of ways to explain to people how I feel about this. Here's another analogy/example.

An entrepreneur builds a business. To build that business he needs building blocks. There are several essential building blocks:
Government
Customers
Employees
Vendors
Investors
Teachers/Mentors

True true true, without any of these blocks, the business will not stand. But it is still the entrepreneur who took all those blocks and built the business. Directly opposite of what the President said, and I am sure, what he firmly believes. It was not a slip of the tongue, or taken out of context. He believes that everyone owes their existence to the benevolence of the government.

[yermom]

are blocks free? does someone just miracle them into existence?

[BigTip]

are blocks free? does someone just miracle them into existence?

If you are an economist you could argue that there is no such thing as a free lunch. There are costs to everything.
How apparent those costs will not always be cut and dried though.

[okie52]

Well said. It is this kind of extreme hate that makes me question all of what he says. I have found in my life that the more someone pontificates
about a position, the more likely they are going to be found to be wrong.

I guess he didn't see where I said I was leaning Romney. I just hate all of these faux rage things that come from the extreme right. What they don't realize is that they need guys like to me to elect Romney, and I see the world quite differently. I hate the anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc. actions of the extreme right once they get into power. Do what true conservatives should do and stay out of controlling people, spend less on government, etc., and I would be fine with it.

Okie-I worked for Devon during the purchase. You said George Mitchell opened up the shales with horizontal and fracking. He opened up shales with fracking. Horizontal had nothing to do with it. That came later through Devon's initial horizontals.

Well I worked for Mitchell in the late 70's and was part of the all that HBP, non contiguous units that were held by the Boonesville Bend Conglomerates.

I was off on the horizontal drilling???...I guess you just can't trust the newspapers.


On Aug. 14, 2001, the Oklahoma City-based oil and gas company announced a deal to acquire Mitchell Energy & Development of Houston for $3.5 billion.


Mitchell Energy, led by legendary oilman George Mitchell, was the pioneering company that cracked the code of the Barnett's dense shale rock by using new hydraulic fracturing techniques and experimenting with horizontal drilling. At the time, it had drilled about 400 wells in the Barnett, and executives saw the potential for 1,200.

But over the decade, Devon would advance the ball significantly with improved horizontal drilling and an expansion of drilling far beyond areas north of Fort Worth where Mitchell Energy had focused. The result would be a drilling boom that by 2008 would draw numerous rivals into the field and make the Barnett the biggest gas-producing area in the U.S. Tarrant and Johnson counties would emerge as the top two gas-producing counties in Texas.

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/08/13/3287979/devon-energys-barnett-shale-bet.html#storylink=cpy

Ironically Devon called me to come work for them as they found my name in the Mitchell files in 2001 but I was too involved in other things in OK to make the jump.

Your leaning to Romney doesn't change what a pitiful president Obama has been nor your distorted view of "hate" vs issues. I'm extreme right???....well yes on some issues...particularly energy and immigration. I'm also prochoice, pro gay marriage, pro legalization of pot (and most drugs for that matter), reduction in military spending, non interventionist foreign policy, and pro healthcare reform (just not Obama's piece of sheet) to name a few. Not that those stances have any moral superiority to contrary views but rather I hate for these things to be issues at all. But I also prioritize my issues and the economic ones far outweigh the social issues.

i'm always surprised to see an oily that can ever support this energy clown for president.

But, hey, we can all feel better that Obama made June Gay Pride month, "evolved" on gay marriage, fought every action to deter illegal immigration while shutting down 2 oceans from oil and gas exploration. Sheet, he's really got a handle on things.

[olevetonahill]

So then By this thinkin If my Business FAILED I get to Blame the Gov. Cool beans

[okie52]

Sorry Okie, but I think what he was saying is exactly opposite of
your contention and,as your being an oily I understand your stance..
just disagree with it.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[okie52]

So then By this thinkin If my Business FAILED I get to Blame the Gov. Cool beans

LOL-and ask for a bailout.

[olevetonahill]

Sorry Okie, but I think what he was saying is exactly opposite of
your contention and,as your being an oily I understand your stance..
just disagree with it.
What little I saw of this I kinda agree with you but only on the 1st part of what he said. Then he went round the bend and was campaigning in all 57 states again.

[olevetonahill]

LOL-and ask for a bailout.

Sad part is Most small Business's FAIL because of TOO much Gov. regulation

[okie52]

Sad part is Most small Business's FAIL because of TOO much Gov. regulation

Yep, because it sure couldn't be that they weren't smart or hardworking enough.

[BigTip]

So then By this thinkin If my Business FAILED I get to Blame the Gov. Cool beans

Yes.
I said earlier that all those building blocks that are used to build a business can also be the reason for failure. If any one of those blocks fail, the business comes tumbling down.
No customers, fail.
No more capital infusion when needed, fail.
Employees become inept or dishonest, fail.
Vendors raise prices, fail.
Government over regulate, fail.

[marfacowboy]

Sad part is Most small Business's FAIL because of TOO much Gov. regulation

I'd like to see a stat or study to support this. I'd say most businesses fail because they're under capitalized.

[olevetonahill]

I'd like to see a stat or study to support this. I'd say most businesses fail because they're under capitalized.

Because the ****in Gov. Regulates em so dayum much. yer not very bright are you?

When you have to spen a chunk of your operating capital on Gov, Regs an forms then its the Gov's. Fault :couple_inlove:

[Skysooner]

Well I worked for Mitchell in the late 70's and was part of the all that HBP, non contiguous units that were held by the Boonesville Bend Conglomerates.

I was off on the horizontal drilling???...I guess you just can't trust the newspapers.




Ironically Devon called me to come work for them as they found my name in the Mitchell files in 2001 but I was too involved in other things in OK to make the jump.

Your leaning to Romney doesn't change what a pitiful president Obama has been nor your distorted view of "hate" vs issues. I'm extreme right???....well yes on some issues...particularly energy and immigration. I'm also prochoice, pro gay marriage, pro legalization of pot (and most drugs for that matter), reduction in military spending, non interventionist foreign policy, and pro healthcare reform (just not Obama's piece of sheet) to name a few. Not that those stances have any moral superiority to contrary views but rather I hate for these things to be issues at all. But I also prioritize my issues and the economic ones far outweigh the social issues.

i'm always surprised to see an oily that can ever support this energy clown for president.

But, hey, we can all feel better that Obama made June Gay Pride month, "evolved" on gay marriage, fought every action to deter illegal immigration while shutting down 2 oceans from oil and gas exploration. Sheet, he's really got a handle on things.

Mitchell deserves credit for making shale commercial, but there were lots of building blocks before that. He didn't invent horizontal drilling which had been around for decades. He didn't invent slickwater fracking which had been around for at least a decade. It was cleaning up some of the technology that allowed them to achieve comerciality in vertical drilling. There has been shale production around since the 1950s and 1960s (see Woodford perforations in Oklahoma). The problem has always been standalone commerciality which he achieved.

I didn't call you a right wing. I am talking about the extreme right wing of the republican party. I had no idea whether this was you or not. My initial post in this thread talking about that part of the party which makes it hard for me to support their platform. I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative which you find all over the oil industry and society in general at this point.

Obama has been nowhere as bad as people make him out to me or nowhere as good as he could have been. He has governed as a centrist. Look beyond the rhetoric for once and to what he has done. The reason I'll lean Romney is economic self-interest, but I also don't totally believe Romney either. He is more like Obama than you want to admit in terms of what he has done. Passing of Romneycare in Massachusetts and then saying he doesn't support Obamacare is just politics. What I will likely do is vote Romney and for the Democrat on the ticket in my local election. A divided government is usually better overall anyway, and it keeps raving lunatics from passing social agendas that wasn't the reason they were elected for in the first place.

If/when you want to have a reasonable discussion about this, feel free to PM me. I don't respond well to misconstruing what I'm saying and putting down my beliefs in public which have taken years to form and have a long/deep base. The extremists on here (on both sides) want to say that when we don't believe in what they say that we are off the deep end. Posting liberal or conservative diatribes from bloggers/writers that so obviously have agendas isn't going to convince me of anything. Feed me some facts and stop the use of words like socialism for describing Obama and maybe we can talk.

[BigTip]

I'd like to see a stat or study to support this. I'd say most businesses fail because they're under capitalized.

I think that it's pretty common knowledge that the two biggest reasons for business failure is under capitalization and mismanagement.

Hmmmm....mismanagement. Makes sense that THE REASON FOR BUSINESS SUCCESS is also the reason for failure. Just as you can't attribute business success solely to government, neither can you blame it for failures.

Of course the coal industry might take issue with that point right now.

[BigTip]

I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative which you find all over the oil industry and society in general at this point.


As I am too. Why can't someone cater to us?

I too have a problem with the Republican party saying for government to get out of our lives, meaning pocketbook, but still trying to regulate our morality.

Ron Paul's views are actually closer to mine than either party. Maybe his boy will make a run some day and be regarded as more electable.

[okie52]

Mitchell deserves credit for making shale commercial, but there were lots of building blocks before that. He didn't invent horizontal drilling which had been around for decades. He didn't invent slickwater fracking which had been around for at least a decade. It was cleaning up some of the technology that allowed them to achieve comerciality in vertical drilling. There has been shale production around since the 1950s and 1960s (see Woodford perforations in Oklahoma). The problem has always been standalone commerciality which he achieved.

I didn't call you a right wing. I am talking about the extreme right wing of the republican party. I had no idea whether this was you or not. My initial post in this thread talking about that part of the party which makes it hard for me to support their platform. I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative which you find all over the oil industry and society in general at this point.

Obama has been nowhere as bad as people make him out to me or nowhere as good as he could have been. He has governed as a centrist. Look beyond the rhetoric for once and to what he has done. The reason I'll lean Romney is economic self-interest, but I also don't totally believe Romney either. He is more like Obama than you want to admit in terms of what he has done. Passing of Romneycare in Massachusetts and then saying he doesn't support Obamacare is just politics. What I will likely do is vote Romney and for the Democrat on the ticket in my local election. A divided government is usually better overall anyway, and it keeps raving lunatics from passing social agendas that wasn't the reason they were elected for in the first place.

If/when you want to have a reasonable discussion about this, feel free to PM me. I don't respond well to misconstruing what I'm saying and putting down my beliefs in public which have taken years to form and have a long/deep base. The extremists on here (on both sides) want to say that when we don't believe in what they say that we are off the deep end. Posting liberal or conservative diatribes from bloggers/writers that so obviously have agendas isn't going to convince me of anything. Feed me some facts and stop the use of words like socialism for describing Obama and maybe we can talk.

I haven't fed you Obama is a socialist...have never said it. Not because I don't think Obama wouldn't use a much heavier hand regarding government control of business if it was politically available because I do. He just knows that you can't use the word socialist without losing political viability in this country. He did campaign for the Socialist Bernie Sanders so he must not be strongly opposed to those that support socialism.

I'll agree that apart from being on a state level Romneycare isn't much different than Obamacare. I just think Obamacare is a bad bill. If you want to embrace something like the Swiss system and include most of its cost saving requirements then I would be fine with it.

I'll say the same to you about political rhetoric. Shutting down 2 oceans for exploration when we have high unemployment, declining tax revenues, and 2/3 of our trade deficit is from imported oil isn't extreme? Is that the center? Shutting down Yucca without any alternative nuclear waste repository and no scientific explanation for its abandonment is centrist? Having the house pass a unilateral cap and trade policy that punished ng while rewarding ethanol is centrist (of course he's an ng advocate now)? Refusing to reopen the Gulf until being ordered by the federal court twice to reopen it is centrist? Targeting the oil and gas industry for its write offs but ignoring the write offs for the rest of the manufacturing industry is centrist (and fair)? He11, the guy campaigned for a windfall profits tax and would have done it if he had the political capital. Having federal oil and gas lease sales drop from 9.6 billion in 2008 to 36 million last year isn't extreme? Giving unions a $60,000,000,000 tax exemption on cadillac healthcare plans regardless of income was centrist? So old john public and Joe Union each make $60,000 a year and only John Public gets taxed? That's fair? Saying that he supports a tax increase on capital gains even if it reduces tax revenues is centrist (because its fair)? This is the same guy that fought (and lost fortunately) an AZ law (signed by his homeland secretary Napolitano) that punished employers that hired illegals...is that centrist?

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Now that's funny. The guy rails "I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there."

Well there are a lot of smart people that don't succeed in business. There are a lot of hardworking people that don't succeed, either.

Then he states " If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

But you cling to something that was nothing more than a footnote to the entire speech and somehow think it represents "balance". You really don't have a clue.
Where did you get that first quote from?


"if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive."

Actual quote there.

It actually wasn't a footnote, it came directly after the "you didn't build that" segment and was obviously summing up his thoughts.

[marfacowboy]

Because the ****in Gov. Regulates em so dayum much. yer not very bright are you?

When you have to spen a chunk of your operating capital on Gov, Regs an forms then its the Gov's. Fault :couple_inlove:

Unlike you, I've started a company from scratch and taken it to a successful exit. Btw, a telecommunications company that operated under state and federal telecommunications rules and regulations. The government never prevented us from doing anything we needed to do in order to be successul.
You're clueless.

[Skysooner]

As I am too. Why can't someone cater to us?

I too have a problem with the Republican party saying for government to get out of our lives, meaning pocketbook, but still trying to regulate our morality.

Ron Paul's views are actually closer to mine than either party. Maybe his boy will make a run some day and be regarded as more electable.

Totally agreed. Great post.

[yermom]

As I am too. Why can't someone cater to us?

I too have a problem with the Republican party saying for government to get out of our lives, meaning pocketbook, but still trying to regulate our morality.

Ron Paul's views are actually closer to mine than either party. Maybe his boy will make a run some day and be regarded as more electable.

he's not for God and the MIC so he doesn't get much love here.

[okie52]

Where did you get that first quote from?


"if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive."

Actual quote there.

It actually wasn't a footnote, it came directly after the "you didn't build that" segment and was obviously summing up his thoughts.

The quote was from his speech. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/07/13/remarks-president-campaign-event-roanoke-virginia unless the White House is putting out bogus info:




But you know what, I’m not going to see us gut the investments that grow our economy to give tax breaks to me or Mr. Romney or folks who don’t need them. So I’m going to reduce the deficit in a balanced way. We’ve already made a trillion dollars’ worth of cuts. We can make another trillion or trillion-two, and what we then do is ask for the wealthy to pay a little bit more. (Applause.) And, by the way, we’ve tried that before -- a guy named Bill Clinton did it. We created 23 million new jobs, turned a deficit into a surplus, and rich people did just fine. We created a lot of millionaires.

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -- look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.


Now that's another funny thing Hussein overlooked in his speech...the Clinton tax rates that Hussein only chooses to invoke on the top 2% rather than the rest of the taxpayers. Those "tax breaks" for the rest of tax payers are 4 times what it would be for the 2%...over $3,000,000,000,000. But hey, he's all about shared sacrifice isn't he?

[Skysooner]

I haven't fed you Obama is a socialist...have never said it. Not because I don't think Obama wouldn't use a much heavier hand regarding government control of business if it was politically available because I do. He just knows that you can't use the word socialist without losing political viability in this country. He did campaign for the Socialist Bernie Sanders so he must not be strongly opposed to those that support socialism.

I'll agree that apart from being on a state level Romneycare isn't much different than Obamacare. I just think Obamacare is a bad bill. If you want to embrace something like the Swiss system and include most of its cost saving requirements then I would be fine with it.

I'll say the same to you about political rhetoric. Shutting down 2 oceans for exploration when we have high unemployment, declining tax revenues, and 2/3 of our trade deficit is from imported oil isn't extreme? Is that the center? Shutting down Yucca without any alternative nuclear waste repository and no scientific explanation for its abandonment is centrist? Having the house pass a unilateral cap and trade policy that punished ng while rewarding ethanol is centrist (of course he's an ng advocate now)? Refusing to reopen the Gulf until being ordered by the federal court twice to reopen it is centrist? Targeting the oil and gas industry for its write offs but ignoring the write offs for the rest of the manufacturing industry is centrist (and fair)? He11, the guy campaigned for a windfall profits tax and would have done it if he had the political capital. Having federal oil and gas lease sales drop from 9.6 billion in 2008 to 36 million last year isn't extreme? Giving unions a $60,000,000,000 tax exemption on cadillac healthcare plans regardless of income was centrist? So old john public and Joe Union each make $60,000 a year and only John Public gets taxed? That's fair? Saying that he supports a tax increase on capital gains even if it reduces tax revenues is centrist (because its fair)? This is the same guy that fought (and lost fortunately) an AZ law (signed by his homeland secretary Napolitano) that punished employers that hired illegals...is that centrist?

I said extremists (not you specifically, soonercruiser would fit that bill). Agree totally on the Swiss system. This bill didn't go far enough to really rein in costs like it should have. Lots of things Obama has done I haven't agreed with. I just don't like the extemes on both ends. Also by centrist, I mean that nowhere has he pushed a liberal agenda or a conservative agenda. The center is a wide place. Some of his policies are center right, some are center left, but they are still centrist to a certain extent. What is really pathetic is both politicians pandering to their base instead of giving us what they are really going to do.

[REDREX]

Unlike you, I've started a company from scratch and taken it to a successful exit. Btw, a telecommunications company that operated under state and federal telecommunications rules and regulations. The government never prevented us from doing anything we needed to do in order to be successul.
You're clueless.----Good for you ---I am involved in a number of companies and the Gov't is involved everyday from permitting to homeland security plans---- the new healthcare law will have a big impact on my employees as well as the companies----Don't kid yourself

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

The quote was from his speech. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/07/13/remarks-president-campaign-event-roanoke-virginia unless the White House is putting out bogus info:





Now that's another funny thing Hussein overlooked in his speech...the Clinton tax rates that Hussein only chooses to invoke on the top 2% rather than the rest of the taxpayers. Those "tax breaks" for the rest of tax payers are 4 times what it would be for the 2%...over $3,000,000,000,000. But hey, he's all about shared sacrifice isn't he?
Indeed, I really just misread the quote, apologies.

I'll eat my hat when Obama, Romney or any of the Washington elite make any significant cuts.

[soonercruiser]

I think that it's pretty common knowledge that the two biggest reasons for business failure is under capitalization and mismanagement.

Hmmmm....mismanagement. Makes sense that THE REASON FOR BUSINESS SUCCESS is also the reason for failure. Just as you can't attribute business success solely to government, neither can you blame it for failures.

Of course the coal industry might take issue with that point right now.

That would be poor gobment regulatory management!
:beaten:

[okie52]

I said extremists (not you specifically, soonercruiser would fit that bill). Agree totally on the Swiss system. This bill didn't go far enough to really rein in costs like it should have. Lots of things Obama has done I haven't agreed with. I just don't like the extemes on both ends. Also by centrist, I mean that nowhere has he pushed a liberal agenda or a conservative agenda. The center is a wide place. Some of his policies are center right, some are center left, but they are still centrist to a certain extent. What is really pathetic is both politicians pandering to their base instead of giving us what they are really going to do.

I can agree with a lot of what you said here. I'm for pragmatic approaches and those aren't often rendered to the American public. His energy policies, though, are far from pragmatic.

[C&CDean]

I'll eat my hat when Obama, Romney or any of the Washington elite make any significant cuts.

Wisest thing you've ever posted.

[soonercruiser]

I said extremists (not you specifically, soonercruiser would fit that bill). Agree totally on the Swiss system. This bill didn't go far enough to really rein in costs like it should have. Lots of things Obama has done I haven't agreed with. I just don't like the extemes on both ends. Also by centrist, I mean that nowhere has he pushed a liberal agenda or a conservative agenda. The center is a wide place. Some of his policies are center right, some are center left, but they are still centrist to a certain extent. What is really pathetic is both politicians pandering to their base instead of giving us what they are really going to do.

If you think that most of what Obama has done in center left, then YOU are delusional!
DELUSIONAL!

So what's "center" about the government taking over one sixth of the American economy in mandating a government run and controlled healthcare system?
This is the center piece of his first two years in office with a Demoncratic majority in both Houses of Congress! To he11 with the economy!
Almost everything that comes out of Obama's mouthg is either a LIE or socialist rhetoric.

That is where he came from; the environment he grew up in; and went to school in....READ HIS BOOK! That's where he says he wants to takes us!
YOU have your head in the sand!
I am merely accepting what he has himself said! Even though.....

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/SoonerCruiser_photos/Political/ObamaTruthoutsourced.gif

[soonercruiser]

Originally Posted by SouthCarolinaSooner
I'll eat my hat when Obama, Romney or any of the Washington elite make any significant cuts.

Because this is what America gets when they vote for a "centrist" candidate!
That is.....an elitist candidate; rather than some new blood with some morals left!

So, go ahead. Stay in the "center"!

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/SoonerCruiser_photos/Political/roadkill1.jpg

[okie52]

What did Obama actually say and mean? Here is the controversial part of the speech:

“There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -- look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is this: when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.” (Full text here)

Now let’s unpack this a bit. Obama says this in the larger context of deficit reduction, where he claims that the government has already cut a trillion dollars. The next step, according to the president, is to ask the wealthiest Americans to pay a little more of their income so that we can reduce the deficit and continue investing in government programs and infrastructure. This is fair, he argues, because no one can take all the credit for his success. Success is always dependent on outside factors—particularly government programs.

Before tearing the “you didn’t build that” part to shreds, let’s all at least be honest enough to admit that Obama has a point here. People don’t succeed in a vacuum. Countless personal and societal factors affect a great degree of someone’s success. Often these factors are things that we have no control over and do not particularly earn or deserve. There certainly isn't, after all, a formulaic correlation between how hard someone works (or how intelligent he is) and how much money he makes or influence he wields.

Author and journalist Malcolm Gladwell does a great study of the issue in his book Outliers, which looks at the stories of various successful groups and individuals such as Bill Gates and the Beatles (permit me to toot my own horn and link to my review of Outliers here if you'd like a quick synopsis). Each only found smashing success because a very particular series of circumstances all came about. For Bill Gates, he had access to one of the few modern computer terminals in the world while growing up, and he had a family that allowed him to indulge in his obsessions with computers. The Beatles started off playing lengthy shows at strip clubs, but it was only the experience of playing for long periods of time that forced them to innovate and brought out their musical genius. A unique set of circumstances maximized the fruits of their labors, and they thus found phenomenal success.

Granted, founding and running a business doesn’t exactly make you a unique “outlier.” Plenty of people have done it. But here’s the key. Those “lucky” breaks or external supports only help if the individual is putting in a great deal of his own effort. No one pulls himself up by his own bootstraps, but anyone who hopes to be successful has to do a lot of pulling on his own.

Now back to the president’s speech. Conservatives are right that he has an agenda: greater taxes on the wealthy. He is trying to justify more government programs and greater government investment in infrastructure like schools and highways, and surely no one in their right mind would disagree with him—to a point. We have the government to thank for teaching many of our children, paving roads for us to drive on, making sure our food meets certain standards of health, and so on. The government actually does a lot to create an environment in which people can prosper -- sometimes the government is the best institution for the job.

Yet, Obama fails to balance his statements with the importance of individual freedom and free enterprise. Sure there are many cases where government-spearheaded efforts have come up with amazing inventions like the internet, but you also have America's Thomas Edisons, Wright brothers, Henry Fords, and Bill Gates. These kinds of people were deeply driven individuals who succeeded mostly because of their own single-handed efforts--independent of any government initiative--because they saw themselves as free men and reaped the rewards of their labor. Not entirely because of their own efforts, of course, but hard work and innovative thinking were absolutely vital to their success. As such, Obama’s claim that a business owner “didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen,” was at best a poor choice of words and at worst a horribly flawed understanding of how economic prosperity and success come about. Many business owners have indeed built their own businesses, sometimes with much more opposition than help from outside forces, and they’ve done so at the cost of their own money, blood, sweat, and tears.

The question, then, is how much should we require the wealthy to give back to the government, and by extension society, for their success?

It’s beyond the scope of this post to venture a specific answer, and perhaps there is no clear-cut right or wrong answer. Maybe that’s one reason why it’s the nucleus of the debate in Congress these days.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/11596/obama-vs-romney-you-didn-t-build-that-remarks-are-unfortunate-and-so-is-the-gop-response

Here is a pretty even handed observation of Obama's speech and I couldn't agree more.

[marfacowboy]

----Good for you ---I am involved in a number of companies and the Gov't is involved everyday from permitting to homeland security plans---- the new healthcare law will have a big impact on my employees as well as the companies----Don't kid yourself

There are some industries where I'm sure the government is more of a burden. No doubt. But some of those industries, like off-shore drilling and fracking, need tight regulation and observation. The track record of private industry harvesting national resources is not good.

[REDREX]

There are some industries where I'm sure the government is more of a burden. No doubt. But some of those industries, like off-shore drilling and fracking, need tight regulation and observation. The track record of private industry harvesting national resources is not good.--I don't do any of that and the Gov't is a pain to work with. This is not just here we operate from Fla to Cal. The healthcare law will cost more money and the employees will receive less benefits , If you don't think Gov't and taxes are a burden you are just wrong. The "Track record" of the Gov't doing much right is far worse

[okie52]

There are some industries where I'm sure the government is more of a burden. No doubt. But some of those industries, like off-shore drilling and fracking, need tight regulation and observation. The track record of private industry harvesting national resources is not good.

Really? The oil and gas industry haven't been providing the US oil and gas off of the national resources? Can you name someone in the WORLD that would do it better? If so, you must know something that the rest of the world doesn't since many foreign countries use US oil and gas companies expertise to develop their oil fields...offshore and inland. The US companies are 2nd to none in drilling and production sophistication. Its why Brazil will utilize US companies to develop its large offshore discovery. The Gulf coast has been producing for over 60 years and represents over 50% of the entire Gulf Coast economy as well as a substantial part of our domestic production.

Now just imagine if we did something incredible like actually developed our reserves in the Atlantic, Pacific, Alaskan Seas, ANWR, etc... you know, like any other country in the world would do.

[marfacowboy]

--I don't do any of that and the Gov't is a pain to work with. This is not just here we operate from Fla to Cal. The healthcare law will cost more money and the employees will receive less benefits , If you don't think Gov't and taxes are a burden you are just wrong. The "Track record" of the Gov't doing much right is far worse

As I've said consistently, when the American system works best, there is a strong balance between free enterprise and government. Get too far in either direction, and you have trouble. I think all of this gross demonization of government is BS. It's as dumb as saying "all corporations are evil."

[marfacowboy]

Really? The oil and gas industry haven't been providing the US oil and gas off of the national resources? Can you name someone in the WORLD that would do it better?

What on earth are you talking about? This statement makes no sense. It has no relevance to anything I've stated.


If so, you must know something that the rest of the world doesn't since many foreign countries use US oil and gas companies expertise to develop their oil fields...offshore and inland. The US companies are 2nd to none in drilling and production sophistication. Its why Brazil will utilize US companies to develop its large offshore discovery. The Gulf coast has been producing for over 60 years and represents over 50% of the entire Gulf Coast economy as well as a substantial part of our domestic production.

And who's to say that the successes haven't been in part to a working agreement between government and free enterprise?

[okie52]

What on earth are you talking about? This statement makes no sense. It has no relevance to anything I've stated.



And who's to say that the successes haven't been in part to a working agreement between government and free enterprise?

Well here is your post:


Originally Posted by marfacowboy
There are some industries where I'm sure the government is more of a burden. No doubt. But some of those industries, like off-shore drilling and fracking, need tight regulation and observation. The track record of private industry harvesting national resources is not good.

In case you didn't know, the oil and gas industry has been harvesting national resources for a very long time. I'm not sure what planet you are on.

The Obama government shutdown the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans to oil and gas exploration...now that is government working with private industry. But be sure and give "government" its due share of credit for the oil and gas industry's technological developments...kind of like Obama taking credit for an increase in oil production.

[olevetonahill]

Well here is your post:



In case you didn't know, the oil and gas industry has been harvesting national resources for a very long time. I'm not sure what planet you are on.

The Obama government shutdown the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans to oil and gas exploration...now that is government working with private industry. But be sure and give "government" its due share of credit for the oil and gas industry's technological developments.

But hes all Smart an stuff

[okie52]

But hes all Smart an stuff

I'm sure NASA has offered him a job.

[Skysooner]

If you think that most of what Obama has done in center left, then YOU are delusional!
DELUSIONAL!

So what's "center" about the government taking over one sixth of the American economy in mandating a government run and controlled healthcare system?
This is the center piece of his first two years in office with a Demoncratic majority in both Houses of Congress! To he11 with the economy!
Almost everything that comes out of Obama's mouthg is either a LIE or socialist rhetoric.

That is where he came from; the environment he grew up in; and went to school in....READ HIS BOOK! That's where he says he wants to takes us!
YOU have your head in the sand!
I am merely accepting what he has himself said! Even though.....



I'll reference your full body of work on this board as extremism. Construing anything he has done as a liberal agenda is far from the truth. Letting health care go as it was wasn't going to do any of us any good. Poorer results at higher costs and the very real chance of an emergency completely bankrupting the individual even with insurance. That does none of us any good. Not that it will do any good debating with you.

[olevetonahill]

I'm sure NASA has offered him a job.

Fer sho. He gonna be Head Rocket Surgeon and chief Bottle warsher

[okie52]

Fer sho. He gonna be Head Rocket Surgeon and chief Bottle warsher

Heh heh.

[pphilfran]

When you add in all of his past statements it is easy to figure out what he saying this time around...

[marfacowboy]

Well here is your post:



In case you didn't know, the oil and gas industry has been harvesting national resources for a very long time. I'm not sure what planet you are on.

The Obama government shutdown the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans to oil and gas exploration...now that is government working with private industry. But be sure and give "government" its due share of credit for the oil and gas industry's technological developments...kind of like Obama taking credit for an increase in oil production.

It's not good. Ever hear of the Exxon Valdez? BP in the Gulf (the U.S. regulates the Gulf regardless of whether its a U.S. company or not).
There were 1,443 incidents in OCS waters from 2001-2007 that killed 41 and injured 301 injuries, 100 losses of well control, 11 collisions, 476 fires and 356 pollution events. According to state-by-state reports compiled by the US Department of Transportation's Hazardous Materials and Pipeline Safety Administration, from 2000 to 2009 pipeline accidents accounted for 2,554 significant incidents and 161 fatalities in the US. The government continually finds significant lack of compliance during inspections, and their inspectors find the same violations in multiple refineries, over and over again.
And Obama is worse than Bush when it comes to offshore drilling. It's gone up under Obama.

[REDREX]

And what about the Gov'ts record--- How well do the run things like Medicare , Medicaid , Social Security,The Postal System , Loan programs , Freddie And Fannie, Ethanol---and it goes on and on. Any Business that is run as poorly as the Federal Gov't would have gone broke years ago

[marfacowboy]

And what about the Gov'ts record--- How well do the run things like Medicare , Medicaid , Social Security,The Postal System , Loan programs , Freddie And Fannie, Ethanol---and it goes on and on. Any Business that is run as poorly as the Federal Gov't would have gone broke years ago

We have the greatest military the world has ever seen. You can mail a letter from LA to Jacksonville for less than .50 cents and it will get there in two days. The government saved the country in the 1930's, particularly Oklahoma. My father, a Vet, loves the VA. He needs it and appreciates it. The government saved GM.
It's all about balance. We wouldn't be the country we are today without the government and free enterprise. I'm beginning to think you anti-government people are becoming seditious. Why do you hate America so much?

[REDREX]

We have the greatest military the world has ever seen. You can mail a letter from LA to Jacksonville for less than .50 cents and it will get there in two days. The government saved the country in the 1930's, particularly Oklahoma. My father, a Vet, loves the VA. He needs it and appreciates it. The government saved GM.
It's all about balance. We wouldn't be the country we are today without the government and free enterprise. I'm beginning to think you anti-government people are becoming seditious. Why do you hate America so much?---Don't act like such a Pompous ***

[marfacowboy]

---Don't act like such a Pompous ***

You guys just can't stand it when you're proven wrong. I'm sick and tired of the far right demonizing our government and always painting with a broad brush, slinging ridiculous, politicized generalizations around like a monkey flinging **** in a cage.
Government isn't the boogeyman. Neither is free enterprise. There are problems in both, but for the nation to function properly, you need both.

[okie52]

It's not good. Ever hear of the Exxon Valdez? BP in the Gulf (the U.S. regulates the Gulf regardless of whether its a U.S. company or not).
There were 1,443 incidents in OCS waters from 2001-2007 that killed 41 and injured 301 injuries, 100 losses of well control, 11 collisions, 476 fires and 356 pollution events. According to state-by-state reports compiled by the US Department of Transportation's Hazardous Materials and Pipeline Safety Administration, from 2000 to 2009 pipeline accidents accounted for 2,554 significant incidents and 161 fatalities in the US. The government continually finds significant lack of compliance during inspections, and their inspectors find the same violations in multiple refineries, over and over again.
And Obama is worse than Bush when it comes to offshore drilling. It's gone up under Obama.

The Valdez was a shipping accident...had nothing to do with offshore exploration.

The US regulates the Gulf???...thanks for that bit of information..I would have never guessed it.

The incidents/violations you report occur in just about every manufacturing industry...have you ever examined the amount of active wells in the US? There are over 800,000. There has been drilling going on in the Gulf for over 60 years covering thousands of wells and only 1 major incident in US waters. That is an excellent track record.

And what are the fruits of offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico? Over half of the gulf coast economy is due to oil and gas production. A significant part of our domestic production comes from the gulf coast. The reward has been much greater than the risk.

Obama was ordered twice by federal court to reopen the gulf or be held in contempt? Real cooperation there. Shut down the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans for exploration denying the country access to its oil and gas reserves, the thousands of jobs, billions in tax revenues, lease bonus money and royalties while we have high unemployment and over 2/3 of our trade deficit is due to imported oil. Brilliant. Is this the cooperation you were talking about?

I can only guess your last sentence you were meaning to say offshore drilling went up under Obama...well most of those leases were purchased under W..not Obama. In 2008 federal lease sales were 9.6 Billion....last year 36 million. You do the math.

[okie52]

You guys just can't stand it when you're proven wrong. I'm sick and tired of the far right demonizing our government and always painting with a broad brush, slinging ridiculous, politicized generalizations around like a monkey flinging **** in a cage.
Government isn't the boogeyman. Neither is free enterprise. There are problems in both, but for the nation to function properly, you need both.

Shutting down two coasts to oil and gas exploration is sheer stupidity. Virtually no other country in the world would turn its back on those kinds of reserves for a stupid political ideology.

[BigTip]

okie52, that was a good article
http://www.policymic.com/articles/11...e-gop-response

I get that Obama wants the rich to pay more. Those that have been successful should I guess. But the problem is that "business" covers a huge spectrum. Those that shout, "Let business pay for it!" are envisioning GM, IBM, Exxon, etc. Large, faceless corporations. The problem with that perception is the vast majority of businesses in this country are small businesses. Owner operated, with the owner working his *** off, just to get by. Far from the "rich fat cats" so lustily targeted by those those that want "business" to pay for all the social programs that they think everyone deserves.
That's why Obama's statement is so terrible. Here we business owners are just hoping that the straw that will break our camel back doesn't come, and this totally out of touch character comes out and says all our efforts are because of his government.
Infuriating!

[marfacowboy]

Shutting down two coasts to oil and gas exploration is sheer stupidity. Virtually no other country in the world would turn its back on those kinds of reserves for a stupid political ideology.

Guess I better be careful here since the forum owners have cited me for an "infraction of the rules" (I stated a post was racist)....lest I be suspended (oh my oh my, what on earth would I do if I couldn't post here!?)
So, are you saying that when the drilling methods are obviously flawed and don't have adequate safeguards, they should be allowed to continue to operate as usual? Even if it means endangering entire coastlines and the livelihoods of others? Fisherman, restaurant owners, etc.? Just business as usual, although we know business as usual puts the nation's resources at risk?

[marfacowboy]

The Valdez was a shipping accident...had nothing to do with offshore exploration.

The discussion is about government regulation and whether it is needed or not. The case is applicable.



The incidents/violations you report occur in just about every manufacturing industry...have you ever examined the amount of active wells in the US? There are over 800,000. There has been drilling going on in the Gulf for over 60 years covering thousands of wells and only 1 major incident in US waters. That is an excellent track record.

So, we therefore don't need any regulation, correct? Everything is fine if you just let private industry go its own way, right?


And what are the fruits of offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico? Over half of the gulf coast economy is due to oil and gas production. A significant part of our domestic production comes from the gulf coast. The reward has been much greater than the risk.

What part about "balance" don't you understand?


Obama was ordered twice by federal court to reopen the gulf or be held in contempt? Real cooperation there. Shut down the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans for exploration denying the country access to its oil and gas reserves, the thousands of jobs, billions in tax revenues, lease bonus money and royalties while we have high unemployment and over 2/3 of our trade deficit is due to imported oil. Brilliant. Is this the cooperation you were talking about?

We've had more drilling under Obama than under Bush. That's a fact. You do the math.

[pphilfran]

Regulation balance...

And if you are going to have regulation you must have some legitimate type of auditing in place....

Overall we...

Excel at dreaming up regulation...

Stumble through the implementation...

Forget about quality auditing...

[olevetonahill]

]Guess I better be careful here since the forum owners have cited me for an "infraction of the rules"[/B] (I stated a post was racist)....lest I be suspended (oh my oh my, what on earth would I do if I couldn't post here!?)
So, are you saying that when the drilling methods are obviously flawed and don't have adequate safeguards, they should be allowed to continue to operate as usual? Even if it means endangering entire coastlines and the livelihoods of others? Fisherman, restaurant owners, etc.? Just business as usual, although we know business as usual puts the nation's resources at risk?

Whining about the Mods will get ya another :couple_inlove:

[olevetonahill]

Whining about the Mods will get ya another :couple_inlove:
Yer not only Crying about the Mods but yer throwing a temper tantrum too aint ya ? :couple_inlove:

http://www.kcconfidential.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Crying+Baby+Natural+High+for+Some+Moms.jpg

[marfacowboy]

Whining about the Mods will get ya another :couple_inlove:

One can hope.

[pphilfran]

marfa don't hold a candle to some of the radicals on the board...