The Freeh Report

[zeke]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8159195/report-says-penn-state-nittany-lions-senior-officials-disregarded-children-welfare

Disgusting

Joe Paterno is/was a low life. Say what you want about all the good he did, this cuts it. Screw him and Penn St.

I doubt it happens but IMO Penn St should get the death penalty in football.

[badger]

Penn State recently boasted about booster funding levels remaining high (http://articles.cnn.com/2012-07-09/us/us_pennsylvania-penn-state-donations_1_sandusky-image-joe-paterno-and-university-sandusky-conviction). I hope that every penny of that goes to the victims and not a penny goes to propping up the football machine that kept these facts hush-hush for so long. :(

[Widescreen]

Penn State recently boasted about booster funding levels remaining high (http://articles.cnn.com/2012-07-09/us/us_pennsylvania-penn-state-donations_1_sandusky-image-joe-paterno-and-university-sandusky-conviction). I hope that every penny of that goes to the victims and not a penny goes to propping up the football machine that kept these facts hush-hush for so long. :(
Yeah, when i heard that, I thought "good, more money for the victims".

[olevetonahill]

Member this? back in 86, If he had retired then maybe some of those kids would not have been molested.

It's been several years since Joe Paterno, the Penn State football coach, said he wasn't ready to retire because if he did, it would leave college football in the hands of ''the Jackie Sherrills and the Barry Switzers.'' The comment understandably upset Sherrill, a former Pitt coach who now coaches at Texas A.&M., and Switzer, the Oklahoma coach.

[KantoSooner]

Say what you want, but can anyone seriously imagine Bob Stoops, Barry Switzer, Bo Pelini, Mack Brown, Nick Saban, Mike Gundy or, hell, crazy Les Miles actively protecting a pedo?

Several of them (Switzer and Pelini pop to mind) would probably have beaten the azzhole to death with their own hands. And let's not even begin to imagine what Nick Saban would have 'arranged'. It would have been quiet....and final.

[badger]

This is just absolutely disappointing:
JS2PEa_vuOo

[SoonerinSouthlake]

Member this? back in 86, If he had retired then maybe some of those kids would not have been molested.

It's been several years since Joe Paterno, the Penn State football coach, said he wasn't ready to retire because if he did, it would leave college football in the hands of ''the Jackie Sherrills and the Barry Switzers.'' The comment understandably upset Sherrill, a former Pitt coach who now coaches at Texas A.&M., and Switzer, the Oklahoma coach.

May be my imagination...but didnt Barry come out and say that Joe, either in public or personal call, apologized to him. (Didnt apologize to Sherrill)?

[badger]

Joe Paterno, the Penn State football coach, said he wasn't ready to retire because if he did, it would leave college football in the hands of ''the Jackie Sherrills and the Barry Switzers.''

It has become increasingly apparent that he didn't want to leave college football, period, and that he never would unless forced out in shame or he died clinging to the job.

After this report, at least there was a bit of justice -- that rather that being able to hold the job till death, that he was FIRED from the job first.

[badger]

May be my imagination...but didnt Barry come out and say that Joe, either in public or personal call, apologized to him. (Didnt apologize to Sherrill)?


After a period of time, Paterno came to loathe Sherrill. In 1979 he famously said that he didn't want to leave college football to the Barry Switzers and Jackie Sherrills of the world. (Paterno subsequently apologized to Switzer but wrote in his book, "I don't give a damn about what Sherrill felt.")
Linky (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=1897457)

[rock on sooner]

This is little consolation to those who were violated, but I believe
that Sandusky should get 10 years for each conviction and serve
the punishment in the general population in Attica in New York state.

As to those who covered it up, the maximum penalty allowed by law...
no good bunch of lowlifes!

[Jason White's Third Knee]

Say what you want, but can anyone seriously imagine Barry Switzer actively protecting a pedo.

How fast is the pedo's time in the forty?


No, not seriously.

[SoonerPride]

Penn State should remove all references to Joe Paterno from their university. People who shield pedophiles are not heroes, they are scum.

Nike has the right idea. They took his name off their child center. TODAY.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Paterno-NIKE-Name-Change-162232745.html

[Tear Down This Wall]

Buttsex is wrong anyway. It's especially wrong if a man is doing it to boys and other men do nothing about it when they discover what is happening.

"Oh, TDTW, they were powerless to stop the awful buttsex because of Joe Pa mighty, pighty, famousness."

Hello, it's called "Whistleblower Protection." With WorldCom also going down in Pennsylvania, and on the heels of Enron, you'd figure McQueary or someone would have stepped up to the plate.

Nope. All of these grown ups just did what they could to protect Penn State and Joe Pa. They are gross and bad people.

ADDENDUM: But, I don't want them to die. I want them to suffer. I want their crown jewel that they worked to hard to protect - Penn State - football to be put to death right before their very eyes. I want them to suffer a season or two or three with no football on their television stations except what remains of the Pitt Panthers' once proud program.

Haughty Big Ten bastards. Looking down their noses all those years at Pitt, the blue collared, city school. I hope that Pitt will forever after reign over them because they did the wrong thing morally and ethically.

[BigJerm7]

Penn State should remove all references to Joe Paterno from their university. People who shield pedophiles are not heroes, they are scum.

Nike has the right idea. They took his name off their child center. TODAY.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Paterno-NIKE-Name-Change-162232745.html

Phil Knight (Nike Pres) is even backpeddling on taking up for Paterno at the funeral.

Paterno was worried about negative publicity. But in actuality, if would've if he'd done the right thing, it would've saved his legacy. Dude was just stuck in the 60's and 70's and didn't change with the times.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

The idiotic scene with the students crying in support of Paterno on his front lawn and him leading them in a cheer is the first thing that came to mind after hearing the report...idiots.

[KantoSooner]

In defense of Joe Pa, it would seem that, with the Philly Pedo Priest coverup imbroglio, etc, the instance of older men raping little boys was so common-place in Pennslyvania that it attracted almost no comment from anyone in a position of authority.

[XingTheRubicon]

have to have at least 4 NC's to be pedo-proof


<ducks>

[brokenarrowboomer]

they should take down his statue immediately, and do it on live T.V. so we can see every idiot screaming in protest.

[Wishboned]

they should take down his statue immediately, and do it on live T.V. so we can see every idiot screaming in protest.

Strap some chains to it, pull it down, and drag it around the campus. Like they did with Saddam's statue in Iraq.

[soonercoop1]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8159195/report-says-penn-state-nittany-lions-senior-officials-disregarded-children-welfare

Disgusting

Joe Paterno is/was a low life. Say what you want about all the good he did, this cuts it. Screw him and Penn St.

I doubt it happens but IMO Penn St should get the death penalty in football.

After all the civil suits I would guess PSU and/or Pennsylvania will be bankrupt anyway...they new about it for 14 years and covered it up...pretty much a death penalty as such...

[zeke]

After all the civil suits I would guess PSU and/or Pennsylvania will be bankrupt anyway...they new about it for 14 years and covered it up...pretty much a death penalty as such...

Maybe so, but I guess it depends on how the laws are written in Pennsylvania. Might be that you cant sue them. Like Mike Leach trying to sue Texas Tech. He couldnt sue because of some law.

[cleller]

Member this? back in 86, If he had retired then maybe some of those kids would not have been molested.

It's been several years since Joe Paterno, the Penn State football coach, said he wasn't ready to retire because if he did, it would leave college football in the hands of ''the Jackie Sherrills and the Barry Switzers.'' The comment understandably upset Sherrill, a former Pitt coach who now coaches at Texas A.&M., and Switzer, the Oklahoma coach.

Great recollection.

This is one "Freeh" report that will cost Penn State tons of cash when those civil trials start up.

[diverdog]

Great recollection.

This is one "Freeh" report that will cost Penn State tons of cash when those civil trials start up.

I think this is the tip of the iceberg. He could have molested dozens more. I bet more will come foward.

[Mazeppa]

Joe Paterno's new legacy: Coach turned back on helpless boys to protect himself and Sandusky.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--joe-paterno-blame-freeh-report-jerry-sandusky-penn-state-tarnished-legacy.html

[MamaMia]

This whole thing just makes me feel sick. So why does the janitor get off? He saw the creep in the shower with the boy and said nothing for fear of his losing his job. If they would have fired him over reporting something that atrocious, he would of had one hell of a wrongful termination suit.

[Kadosh]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8159195/report-says-penn-state-nittany-lions-senior-officials-disregarded-children-welfare

Disgusting

Joe Paterno is/was a low life. Say what you want about all the good he did, this cuts it. Screw him and Penn St.

I doubt it happens but IMO Penn St should get the death penalty in football.

I agree. The NCAA should man up and give the death penalty to PSU. NCAA is supposed to be protecting student athletes after all.

[olevetonahill]

Great recollection.

This is one "Freeh" report that will cost Penn State tons of cash when those civil trials start up.

Yup, Those that are saying ' He Apologized' To Barry dont seem to understand. He Said it to begin with so **** him. He also apologized to the Victems of old Jerry too dint he?

May he rot in hell and keep a front seat warm for jerry

[prrriiide]

Maybe so, but I guess it depends on how the laws are written in Pennsylvania. Might be that you cant sue them. Like Mike Leach trying to sue Texas Tech. He couldnt sue because of some law.

Pennsylvania has two sovereign immunity laws. The one that applies is the Sovereign Immunity Act of 1980:


http://nht-2.extreme-dm.com/n2.g?login=lwolf88&pid=sovimmun&jv=n&j=y&srw=1280&srb=24&l=http%3A//www.google.com/url%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dpennsylvania sovereign immunity act%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26ved%3D0CFUQFjAA%26ur l%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.wolfbaldwin.com%2Fattorneys_l awyers%2Farticles.asp%3FArticleID%3D38%26ei%3D9wIA UJ8biKTwBJjOrfYH%26usg%3DAFQjCNFkblz4JLIjSy3t4TIN-51wyj4VhA Personal injury lawyers know only too well that the government enjoys a measure of immunity from suit for its negligence. Likewise, governmental officials may be immune from lawsuits when they are acting within the scope of their official duties. This immunity, known broadly as “sovereign immunity,” is an Americanized concept which took its roots from an English doctrine which held that “the King can do no wrong.” Today, when we speak of sovereign immunity, we are talking about lawsuits against the Federal government or the States. When we talk about claims against local municipalities or their officials, we use the term “governmental immunity.”

There is an important difference. In Pennsylvania, there are two today statutes which govern the two different kinds of immunities. Because they were originally common law rights, with little, if any, constitutional power behind them, the courts had the power to strike them down. In 1973, Pennsylvania Supreme Court did just that: it abolished governmental immunity in the seminal case of Ayala v. Philadelphia Board of Public Education. Five years later, the Court abolished sovereign immunity in Mayle v. Pa. Dept. of Highways. However, the courts can not so easily emasculate legislation – in 1980 the Pennsylvania legislature enacted the Sovereign Immunity Act and the Political Subdivision Tort Claims Act, which effectively put both immunities back on the map.

The Sovereign Immunity Act provides that as a general rule the Commonwealth is immune from suit. For cases in which a person or agency without immunity might otherwise be held liable, the Act provides nine exceptions, where sovereign immunity will not apply. These exceptions include:

Vehicle liability – the operation of any motor vehicle in the possession or control of a Commonwealth party;
Medical-professional liability – acts of health care employees of commonwealth agency medical facilities or institutions or by a commonwealth party who is a doctor, dentist, nurse or related health care personnel;
Care, custody or control of personal property in the possession or control of Commonwealth parties; however, sovereign immunity is not waived as to the “use of nuclear and other radioactive equipment, devices and materials”;
Commonwealth real estate, highways and sidewalks – dangerous conditions of real estate;
Dangerous conditions created by potholes and sinkholes on Commonwealth highways;
Care, custody or control of animals in the possession or control of a Commonwealth party, including police dogs and horses;
Liquor store sales at Pennsylvania liquor stores by employees of the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board “if such sale is made to any minor, or to any person visibly intoxicated, or to any insane person, or to any person known as an habitual drunkard, or of known intemperate habit”;
National Guard – acts of members of the Pennsylvania military forces; and
Toxoids and vaccines – liability may be imposed on the Commonwealth a toxoid or vaccine is not manufactured in Pennsylvania, and Pennsylvania must take responsibility for it.

The Sovereign Immunity Act limits recovery against a Commonwealth party to a maximum of “$250,000 in favor of any plaintiff or $1,000,000 in the aggregate.” There are five types of damages allowed: (1) past and future loss of earnings and earning capacity; (2) pain and suffering; (3) medical and dental expenses; (4) loss of consortium; and (5) property losses, except that property losses cannot be recovered in actions involving dangerous conditions created by potholes and sinkholes on Commonwealth highways.

Within six months after an injury to his person or property, a potential plaintiff must give written notice of the injury to the Commonwealth or government unit. The notice must include the identity of the injured party, his address, the location, date and hour of the accident and the name and address of his treating physician. Failure to file the notice within six months bars a suit for the plaintiff’s injuries.

So no, the Commonwealth and (by extension) the University can't be sued. However, the individuals in the matter can be.


Penn St should get the death penalty in football.

On what grounds? The AD was fired, the president of the university was fired, the coach was prosecuted and found guilty, the head coach is dead. The NCAA has no jurisdiction, no by-laws governing such things. And besides, none of the administration or staff responsible for any of it is still there. You think the players that are now at Penn St. should suffer for the actions of others? Tell you what...you did something wrong and got caught and prosecuted. But that isn't enough for me. I'm going to take your kid out and tie them to a post and have him whipped. Same logic applies. The players and staff now at Penn St. and all of their fans are as innocent as a newborn baby in this whole matter. Yet you would have them punished?

[Tear Down This Wall]

On what grounds? The AD was fired, the president of the university was fired, the coach was prosecuted and found guilty, the head coach is dead. The NCAA has no jurisdiction, no by-laws governing such things. And besides, none of the administration or staff responsible for any of it is still there. You think the players that are now at Penn St. should suffer for the actions of others? Tell you what...you did something wrong and got caught and prosecuted. But that isn't enough for me. I'm going to take your kid out and tie them to a post and have him whipped. Same logic applies. The players and staff now at Penn St. and all of their fans are as innocent as a newborn baby in this whole matter. Yet you would have them punished?

The vast majority of players and staff were innocent while Coach Hill and Charles Thompson were dealing cocaine, Jerry Parks was shooting Zarak Peters, and Nigel Clay and two others were raping coeds.

So, why should OU and its fans have been punished when Switzer was let go (okay...allowed to resign), Thompson and the other players jailed?

The point is "lack of institutional control." Penn State is a member of the NCAA, which has bylaw saying that your institution must control the athletic program, and the athletic department must control itself and its athletes.

In the late 80s, we lacked institutional control. Over the past 15 years, Penn State not only lacked institutional control, it refused to acknowledge control was needed. And, they enabled the source of the putrid lack of control.

We were very lucky to have escaped the NCAA death penalty in 1989. What Penn State did was worse. We cleaned house once the problems surface. Penn State, from the genesis of Sandusky's behavior surfacing in 1998, did everything they could to cover up their problems.

So, yes, Penn State should get an NCAA death penalty. Without question. Lack of institutional control, one of the areas NCAA president Emmert told Penn State to account for in his November 2011 letter to them, is one thing. What Penn State did, refuse to acknowledge there was a control problem and hiding it, is another thing - a much worse thing.

[SoonerorLater]

I agree. The NCAA should man up and give the death penalty to PSU. NCAA is supposed to be protecting student athletes after all.

This is a criminal matter not an NCAA mattter and needs to be prosecuted under prevailing statutes. Unless they broke NCAA regulations the NCAA has no business in this.

[Tear Down This Wall]

This is a criminal matter not an NCAA mattter and needs to be prosecuted under prevailing statutes. Unless they broke NCAA regulations the NCAA has no business in this.

Just so we can put this myth to bed, Penn State was told directly which NCAA bylaws were potentially violated back in November:

http://www.ncaa.com/content/ncaa-letter-penn-state

The letter cited nine different sections of the NCAA bylaws. So, yes, this is an NCAA thing. And, yes, Penn State will have to account for the goings on in their athletic department and university in the handling of their athletic department employee Jerry Sandusky.

[Tear Down This Wall]

This is a criminal matter not an NCAA mattter and needs to be prosecuted under prevailing statutes. Unless they broke NCAA regulations the NCAA has no business in this.

Also, you will also note from the letter that the NCAA:

"...recognize that there are ongoing state and federal investigations and the NCAA does not intend to interfere with those probes. Moreover, we respect that under our criminal justice system there is a defined process to ascertain the facts, as well as determine guilt or innocence. We will utilize any information gained from the criminal justice process in our review and have posed additional questions below to gather information that we believe to be relevant to this review."

And

"The behaviors and failures described in the allegations set forth by the grand jury try not only the integrity of the university, but that of intercollegiate athletics as a whole and the NCAA member institutions that conduct college sports."

So, it appears the the NCAA and its president would disagree with you about whether or not this is an NCAA matter as well as a criminal matter. It is both.

[OULenexaman]

I guess Happy Valley has a whole new meaning....:disturbed:

[badger]

I think it's important to run Paterno's legacy into the dirt as much as possible.

Why? To instill fear in millionaire coaches who might think they're the university's most powerful, most untouchable employee and that they run things unquestioned.

Some might think that's unfair to Joe Paterno. Well, he's dead, so what does he care what his legacy is anymore? He has absolutely no use for it in the afterlife, but there is some use for a fully tarnished and disgraced legacy here.

This needs to be full-out scorned. What he did is accused of doing needs to be known to everyone that it is unacceptable and that national championships, awards and philanthropy/humanitarian work are not going to diminish the awfulness.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I think it's important to run Paterno's legacy into the dirt as much as possible.

Why? To instill fear in millionaire coaches who might think they're the university's most powerful, most untouchable employee and that they run things unquestioned.

Some might think that's unfair to Joe Paterno. Well, he's dead, so what does he care what his legacy is anymore? He has absolutely no use for it in the afterlife, but there is some use for a fully tarnished and disgraced legacy here.

This needs to be full-out scorned. What he did is accused of doing needs to be known to everyone that it is unacceptable and that national championships, awards and philanthropy/humanitarian work are not going to diminish the awfulness.

Agree.

And, I'm tired of the talk about the "innocent" players and fans, and "poor Bill O'Brien." "Poor Bill O'Brien" is being paid well and sought out the job.

As for the Penn State players and fans, I can guarantee you that no one in "Happy Valley" was shedding a tear for Gary Gibbs and his innocent players or us as fans after we were put on probation in 1989.

[badger]

On what grounds? The AD was fired, the president of the university was fired, the coach was prosecuted and found guilty, the head coach is dead. The NCAA has no jurisdiction, no by-laws governing such things. And besides, none of the administration or staff responsible for any of it is still there. You think the players that are now at Penn St. should suffer for the actions of others? Tell you what...you did something wrong and got caught and prosecuted. But that isn't enough for me. I'm going to take your kid out and tie them to a post and have him whipped. Same logic applies. The players and staff now at Penn St. and all of their fans are as innocent as a newborn baby in this whole matter. Yet you would have them punished?

How bout this --- on the grounds that they are an embarrassment and a disgrace to the rest of the NCAA programs that, while coaches have been guilty of infractions leading to their suspensions such as excessive texting, that this Penn State situation gives the entire sport a black eye.

It's like when the NFL commish suspends 77-0 dancing fatty (yes, I know that his real name is Johnny Jolly) a season for Purple Drank problems. No, you didn't break any rules of the game, but you are embarrassing the hell outta the NFL with this crap!

[KantoSooner]

Were I the NCAA head, I'd let the legal stuff run its course. Presuming jail time for the three living conspirators (and, yes, I believe there's evidence enough for conspiracy-to-violate-mandatory-reporting in this case) and pretty much roll over and pay the victims if any suit against PSU as an institution can be brought (I think it can't <sov. immunity>) and, if not, then at least a generous settlement offer, then I'd go fairly easy on the program. On the grounds that the people involved had been punished.
If they try any avoidance whatsoever as an institution, however, death penalty for at least 3 years. Obliterate the program.

[SoonerorLater]

Also, you will also note from the letter that the NCAA:

"...recognize that there are ongoing state and federal investigations and the NCAA does not intend to interfere with those probes. Moreover, we respect that under our criminal justice system there is a defined process to ascertain the facts, as well as determine guilt or innocence. We will utilize any information gained from the criminal justice process in our review and have posed additional questions below to gather information that we believe to be relevant to this review."

And

"The behaviors and failures described in the allegations set forth by the grand jury try not only the integrity of the university, but that of intercollegiate athletics as a whole and the NCAA member institutions that conduct college sports."

So, it appears the the NCAA and its president would disagree with you about whether or not this is an NCAA matter as well as a criminal matter. It is both.

It wouldn't be the first time I haven't seen eye to eye with the NCAA. IMO any NCAA violations based on known information (things could change) are at a minimum strained to make a case. This is taking on a lynch mob mentality.
I'm getting a old western movie visual of the townspeople storming the jail wanting to string the prisoner up. At least the NCAA has enough sense not to come in on top of an ongoing criminal investigation.

[Tear Down This Wall]

It wouldn't be the first time I haven't seen eye to eye with the NCAA. IMO any NCAA violations based on known information (things could change) are at a minimum strained to make a case. This is taking on a lynch mob mentality.
I'm getting a old western movie visual of the townspeople storming the jail wanting to string the prisoner up. At least the NCAA has enough sense not to come in on top of an ongoing criminal investigation.

Yeah, so? You said it had nothing to do with the NCAA. The NCAA said otherwise back in November and cited the reason in their own bylaws.

Why do you care that the NCAA enforces its bylaws against its member institutions? How is that a bad thing?

These guys have been caught covering up a sexual abuse scandal that occurred on their campus, on their watch, by an employee they had direct control over. All of this is pointed out to them in the November NCAA letter. How is that tantamount to "a lynch mob mentality"? The NCAA is just doing its job.

[badger]

Question for the board:

Can this situation be compared at all with the Baylor basketball scandal? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baylor_University_basketball_scandal)

[Jason White's Third Knee]

I am not sure what this has to do with the football team. People are vilifying Paterno as if HE was the pedophile. He wasn't. Say it is just as bad, if you like. I don't think so. That being said, he is still guilty of not protecting children. Incredibly cowardly... still, what does it have to do with the kids playing football? No players had anything to do with the offenses nor the cover-up.

Should everyone that covered up the scandal be held accountable? Hell yes. Should Paterno's statue be taken down. Yes. Death penalty for the FB team seems ridiculous. It just doesn't make sense to me at all. This is all about the brass of the school, but not the team which is comprised of innocent 17-24 yo men, playing a game. Hell, some of them may have been a victim of this type of thing themselves. Who knows?

Roast the brass. Not the kids.

[SoonerorLater]

Yeah, so? You said it had nothing to do with the NCAA. The NCAA said otherwise back in November and cited the reason in their own bylaws.

Why do you care that the NCAA enforces its bylaws against its member institutions? How is that a bad thing?



These guys have been caught covering up a sexual abuse scandal that occurred on their campus, on their watch, by an employee they had direct control over. All of this is pointed out to them in the November NCAA letter. How is that tantamount to "a lynch mob mentality"? The NCAA is just doing its job.



The lynch mob mentality I'm referring to is people across the US wanting a pound of flesh clamoring for the NCAA to level sanctions on PSU. To think the NCAA should be mandated to right the wrongs that have been committed is in my opinion just wrong-headed. The only possible justification for the NCAA to get involved (based on current available facts) is to torture the meaning of "lack of institutional control" to include college administrators etc. This has never been done before. The NCAA hasn't been involved in cases that don't involve student atheletes. What you or anybody else who is wanting to get the NCAA involved are asking is to twist this into an NCAA violation ex post facto. This just isn't an NCAA matter. It's a legal matter.

[SoonerorLater]

Question for the board:

Can this situation be compared at all with the Baylor basketball scandal? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baylor_University_basketball_scandal)


At this point no. The sanctions weren't because of the criminal act itself. The sanctions were because of paymnets etc. If NCAA violations are uncovered against Penn St. in the legal process that is a horse of a different color but the criminal activity committed by PSU itself should not be an NCAA issue. It's just not what they are supposed to be about. Think of it this way. Where would you draw the line if members of the faculty, administration and coaching staff were accused or convicted of criminal behavior. Players for that matter too. Should the NCAA become involved if players are caught DUI. If not would they just pick and choose what criminal behavior they will go after? Does anybody just want to turn over more authority to the NCAA to go after wrongs or perceived wrongs. Where would you draw the line? This is just a road i don't want to see them go down to satisfy a bloodlust.

[Tear Down This Wall]

The lynch mob mentality I'm referring to is people across the US wanting a pound of flesh clamoring for the NCAA to level sanctions on PSU. To think the NCAA should be mandated to right the wrongs that have been committed is in my opinion just wrong-headed. The only possible justification for the NCAA to get involved (based on current available facts) is to torture the meaning of "lack of institutional control" to include college administrators etc. This has never been done before. The NCAA hasn't been involved in cases that don't involve student atheletes. What you or anybody else who is wanting to get the NCAA involved are asking is to twist this into an NCAA violation ex post facto. This just isn't an NCAA matter. It's a legal matter.

So, why did the NCAA send a letter pointing out parts of their bylaws that would be tripped by Penn State athletic department employees and university employees not reporting abuse?

I'm sorry that you have a hard time recognizing that organization can have standards for its membership. The NCAA is an organization made up of members. The members are expected to have certain conduct, on and off the playing field. You have this mistaken notion that the NCAA's bylaws apply only to on the field incidents and athletes.

The bylaws explain what is expected of its members. There are bylaws related to ethical conduct and controlling the athletic environment. Penn State did not do that, we now know.

And, really, it's not a "tortured" meaning of lack of institutional control. Jerry Sandusky worked for the institution. Paterno, Curley, Schultz, and Spanier were his superiors. None of them reported his crime of raping a minor boy to authorities on Penn State property, in the athletic facilities.

They covered up, leaving a trail of notes and e-mail detailing their concern for bad publicity. They then let the guy continue to have access to the athletic facilities and program, which he used to continue to entice minors and abuse them sexually.

Paterno shilled for an old friend. Curley, Schultz, and Spanier signed off on it. More boys were molested. It's actually the worst case of lack of institutional control in the history of NCAA investigation. The four men actually acted as if they have no responsibility to control what happened.

Penn State egregiously lacked control of the athletic department; it was being run under the fear of Joe Paterno. You may believe that it is fine, and if an assistant coach wants to rape boys with the full knowledge by the school that he had the propensity to do so, it should be no one's business. Thankfully, the NCAA recognizes this as unethical behavior which triggers and investigation. And, we hope, the death penalty.

No school or football program is worth the protection of child rapists.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I am not sure what this has to do with the football team. People are vilifying Paterno as if HE was the pedophile. He wasn't. Say it is just as bad, if you like. I don't think so. That being said, he is still guilty of not protecting children. Incredibly cowardly... still, what does it have to do with the kids playing football? No players had anything to do with the offenses nor the cover-up.

Should everyone that covered up the scandal be held accountable? Hell yes. Should Paterno's statue be taken down. Yes. Death penalty for the FB team seems ridiculous. It just doesn't make sense to me at all. This is all about the brass of the school, but not the team which is comprised of innocent 17-24 yo men, playing a game. Hell, some of them may have been a victim of this type of thing themselves. Who knows?

Roast the brass. Not the kids.

Yeah. What did Scott Hill and Charles Thompson selling cocaine have to do with Joe Bowden making a tackle? What did Jerry Parks shooting Zarak Peters have to do with Mike Gaddis running for a touchdown? What did Nigel Clay raping a coed have to do with R.D. Lashar kicking a field goal?

Per NCAA bylaws, an institution is to control the actions within its athletic department. The athletic department, in turn, is to police its coaches, players, and peripheral staff. We didn't do it in 1988. Penn State didn't do it for the better part of a decade.

It's not difficult to understand.

Many innocent players were punished when we were put on probation in 1989-1990. It wasn't Gary Gibbs fault, but he bore the brunt of lowered scholarships and dealing with the fallout on the recruiting trails.

You either follow the rules of the organizations you belongs to or you don't. The NCAA bylaws have expectations regarding ethics, and Penn State did not live up to them. Too bad for them.

[MsProudSooner]

Perhaps an appropriate penalty from the NCAA would be for Penn State to donate all the money the football team earns this year to some kind of victims compensation fund.

[sooneredaco]

I say dig the old mans grave up and stick the coffin in jail. Or hell back in bible times punishment was carried out to generation upon generation. Jay would have his a$$ handed to him under that arrangement.

[SoonerorLater]

So, why did the NCAA send a letter pointing out parts of their bylaws that would be tripped by Penn State athletic department employees and university employees not reporting abuse?

I'm sorry that you have a hard time recognizing that organization can have standards for its membership. The NCAA is an organization made up of members. The members are expected to have certain conduct, on and off the playing field. You have this mistaken notion that the NCAA's bylaws apply only to on the field incidents and athletes.

The bylaws explain what is expected of its members. There are bylaws related to ethical conduct and controlling the athletic environment. Penn State did not do that, we now know.

And, really, it's not a "tortured" meaning of lack of institutional control. Jerry Sandusky worked for the institution. Paterno, Curley, Schultz, and Spanier were his superiors. None of them reported his crime of raping a minor boy to authorities on Penn State property, in the athletic facilities.

They covered up, leaving a trail of notes and e-mail detailing their concern for bad publicity. They then let the guy continue to have access to the athletic facilities and program, which he used to continue to entice minors and abuse them sexually.

Paterno shilled for an old friend. Curley, Schultz, and Spanier signed off on it. More boys were molested. It's actually the worst case of lack of institutional control in the history of NCAA investigation. The four men actually acted as if they have no responsibility to control what happened.

Penn State egregiously lacked control of the athletic department; it was being run under the fear of Joe Paterno. You may believe that it is fine, and if an assistant coach wants to rape boys with the full knowledge by the school that he had the propensity to do so, it should be no one's business. Thankfully, the NCAA recognizes this as unethical behavior which triggers and investigation. And, we hope, the death penalty.

No school or football program is worth the protection of child rapists.


Just about everything you wrote is a misrepresentation of what I said. These are my bullet points

1. I never said it is ok. I said it is a legal matter for the courts. It is not an NCAA concern. All parties should be prosecuted fully by the laws of the State of Pennsylvania.

2. It is stipulated all involved are slime. Again not an NCAA concern.

3. The NCAA as constituted has NEVER been tasked with policing college officials without regard to involvement with student athletes. Tragic as this may have been this has nothing to do with any PSU football players. No players received payments, no coaches committed recruiting violations etc. In other words no specific NCAA violations were broken.

4. The Institutional Control issue would be nothing more than a desperate attempt to give the appearance of "doing something". Institutional control as it has ever been practiced or defined by the NCAA is the general lack of over site of existing NCAA rules. Existing NCAA rules to my knowledge do not extend to criminal behavior and that includes molesting children. That is what the courts are for. If found guilty they will be sentenced to jail.

5. The NCAA (National Collegiate ATHLETIC Association) governs college athletics. They are not the collegiate police force. They are there only to enforce EXISTING rules concerning college athletes. No
Jerry Sandusky molesting children or Paterno et al covering it up is simply not an NCAA violation any more than members of the coaching staff being busted for DUI or any other assortment of criminal acts would be under the purview of the NCAA.


In the end this may be a defining case for the NCAA if they try to sanction Penn State (death penalty). If penalized Penn State would "lawyer up" and challenge the limits of the NCAA in the courts almost guaranteed.

[SoonerBread]

Just about everything you wrote is a misrepresentation of what I said. These are my bullet points

1. I never said it is ok. I said it is a legal matter for the courts. It is not an NCAA concern. All parties should be prosecuted fully by the laws of the State of Pennsylvania.

2. It is stipulated all involved are slime. Again not an NCAA concern.

3. The NCAA as constituted has NEVER been tasked with policing college officials without regard to involvement with student athletes. Tragic as this may have been this has nothing to do with any PSU football players. Nobody players received payments, no coaches committed recruiting violations etc. In other words no specific NCAA violations were broken.

4. The Institutional Control issue would be nothing more than a desperate attempt to give the appearance of "doing something". Institutional control as it has ever been practiced or defined by the NCAA is the general lack of over site of existing NCAA rules. Existing NCAA rules to my knowledge do not extend to criminal behavior and that includes molesting children. That is what the courts are for. If found guilty they will be sentenced to jail.

5. The NCAA (National Collegiate ATHLETIC Association) governs college athletics. They are not the collegiate police force. They are there only to enforce EXISTING rules concerning college athletes. No
Jerry Sandusky molesting children or Paterno et al covering it up is simply not an NCAA violation any more than members of the coaching staff being busted for DUI or any other assortment of criminal acts would be under the purview of the NCAA.


In the end this may be a defining case for the NCAA if they try to sanction Penn State (death penalty). If penalized Penn State would "lawyer up" and challenge the limits of the NCAA in the courts almost guaranteed.

Pretty good post. I understand and respect your position. But the problem isn't that NCAA athletic rules were or were not violated. An NCAA member institution (where the presidents are the schools' representatives) allowed criminal behavior to occur and continue. Had Sandusky done what he did once, been reported, arrested, and convicted, no one would hold PSU accountable at all. Ever. But that's not what happened. Everyone involved bowed to the Paterno-built PSU football shrine, cowering before the almighty JoePa, and enabled a known sex offender to continue to destroy the lives of little boys and teens for the sake of maintaining the halo above the football program, and by association, the university. It's not that these fools did the deeds. It's not that anyone on the team committed the acts. It's that the environment built by the football coach and program allowed bad things to happen to troubled kids because of the perception of negativity surrounding old guys butt-raping young kids. They gambled that no one would ever find out and be bold enough to do something about it. They gambled that none of the victims would ever be believed. They gambled that Sandusky's dirty laundry would never be aired. They gambled that once Sandusky had passed on, the problem would eradicate itself. They gambled wrong. And kids paid for it.

Simply firing a coach for an NCAA violation is not enough to keep the school off the NCAA's naughty list. And aiding a criminal in continuing to commit crimes is an ethical violation of NCAA member standards. We're talking about employees of the school hush-hushing sexual crimes, committed on school property by a current and former coach. Let's not forget, 1998 was the time he was first busted. It wasn't his "first time." Sexual predators/offenders are rarely if ever caught the first time.

This was a concerted effort to conceal the behavior and crimes of a known sexual predator. Effort was produced by four high-standing individuals. Not only was this effort criminal-in-nature, but also unbecoming of an official of an NCAA member institution. And absolutely has the NCAA punished "the kids" (athletes) for the transgressions of others. There is precedent to do so, and it is not a stretch. The only thing there is no precedent for is the punishment of a school president or anyone else really above the position of head coach. But if ever there was a time to establish a new one, this is it.

They committed crimes by being complicit in Sandusky's disgusting behavior. And they did so with the reputation of the football program solely in mind. You might not think that's something the NCAA has jurisdiction over; the NCAA disagrees. By allowing and enabling crimes they knew were being committed to continue to be committed, they violated the most sacred of NCAA rules - they lacked institutional control over the atheltic department, namely the football program. They allowed the cash cow football program to dictate their actions, or lack thereof, by allowing a child rapist to run amok on their campus, in their facilities. They allowed said child rapist to lure and entice new victims using the PSU football mystique as bait. It's not that Sandusky acted alone and was a rougue figure among the rank-and-file; he was a revered "alumi emeritus" with full access to PSU resources. He was given an endorsement by the university to rape boys.

The culture of worshipping PSU football has to change. The only way to change it is for people to deemphasize it in their lives. The only way this happens, and to make sure other environments change or don't become what PSU was, is to eliminate it, either indefinitely or for long enough time that PSU is no longer recognized for football. As long as PSU is recognized for football, the victims will never heal. Jerry Sandusky, and his accomplices, are to blame for that. So many wrongs can be righted by doing the right thing. It's time PSU fans, alumni, students, supporters, and faculty learn that lesson. Hopefully that keeps one kid somewhere else from going through what the 10 identified victims had to endure. Who knows how many more there are out there.

[HToady]

they should take down his statue immediately, and do it on live T.V. so we can see every idiot screaming in protest.

They should leave the statue up.

Just turn it facing the wall and change the caption to:" Joe Paterno, looking the other way"

[badger]

If the NCAA feels powerless to punish Penn State, perhaps the state of Pennsylvania could show some jurisdiction on the matter, it being the state college and all.

(of course, those people are so crazy over Joe Papa that they'd probably vote everyone out that said they were against their beloved Nitty Cats)

Even if a moral clause doesn't exist for punishing a program, they should create one and retroactively enforce it for possibly one of the worst things to ever happen in college sports. I mean, short of a mass murder, we are looking at what could possibly be the worst thing that will ever happen in college sports.

Kind of puts excessively texting recruits in perspective. :(

[badger]

They should leave the statue up.

Just turn it facing the wall and change the caption to:" Joe Paterno, looking the other way"

Was he looking the other way? From the way the report made it seem, he looked directly at it and said "Let's let the child molester be treated humanely. But whatever you do, don't sully my legacy by making him my successor at my football program. Not that I'll ever retire. And not that you'll ever be able to force me out or fire me." :mad:

[FaninAma]

By all means throw JoPa and the other 3 under the bus. They deserve it.

But let's not forget that Louis Freeh is the same guy who for the past
year has been the US trustee for MF Global. Why hasn't he been as quick
to act on the obvious crimes and failures by the various parties involved
in that case?

Could it be that Freeh has the reputation of protecting the politically
well-connected and whitewashing their crimes? In this case I think Freeh
is obviously trying to protect individual members of the BoT at Penn State
as well as the sitting governor of Pennsylvania.

How else can you interpret his actions when he didn't interview any of
the primary sacrifical lambs in this mess? Hell, he didn't even talk to
McQuery who called his office repeatedly to try and talk to him.

Sure Paterno has earned the scorn directed his way but I smell a coverup
of even more involvement of higher ups.

[badger]

By all means throw JoPa and the other 3 under the bus. They deserve it.

But let's not forget that Louis Freeh is the same guy who for the past
year has been the US trustee for MF Global. Why hasn't he been as quick
to act on the obvious crimes and failures by the various parties involved
in that case?

Could it be that Freeh has the reputation of protecting the politically
well-connected and whitewashing their crimes? In this case I think Freeh
is obviously trying to protect individual members of the BoT at Penn State
as well as the sitting governor of Pennsylvania.

How else can you interpret his actions when he didn't interview any of
the primary sacrifical lambs in this mess? Hell, he didn't even talk to
McQuery who called his office repeatedly to try and talk to him.

Sure Paterno has earned the scorn directed his way but I smell a coverup
of even more involvement of higher ups.

Very good points. Paterno was apparently persona non grata with the governor... and the governor was not too fond of funding Penn State.

Linky (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7770996/in-wake-joe-paterno-death-sandusky-sex-abuse-scandal-power-struggle-spread-penn-state-state-capital)


From the speaker of a nearby telephone, a distinctive voice chimed in: "Remember the children. Remember that little boy in the shower." The voice belonged to Thomas W. Corbett Jr., the governor of the commonwealth of Pennsylvania and a member of the board of trustees. Corbett was participating in his first meeting, but he had the last word.

Surma then asked whether any trustee objected to the firing of coach Joe Paterno.

The question was met with silence.


Through it all, the central character was Corbett. "Something not very good happened," he told reporters on Nov. 9, hours before he urged his fellow trustees to fire Paterno. "We have to … take the bull by the horns and fix it. Quickly." Publicly, Corbett made it clear that he thought he was the most qualified person to fix Penn State.

A 62-year-old Republican, Corbett is a blunt-spoken former prosecutor whose political career has been built pursuing powerful people who, he has said, "believe they are beyond the law." And his role in the Penn State scandal, fraught with potential conflicts, placed him in a remarkable position. As Pennsylvania's attorney general, he investigated Sandusky for nearly two years but failed to make an arrest. But then, as governor, he blamed the university's leaders for not doing more. One was Paterno, who some board members believed wielded too much power. The other was university president Graham B. Spanier, a 16-year veteran and Corbett rival who had become a vocal opponent of the governor's efforts to slash higher education funding.

To some, Corbett relished the opportunity and had even planned to play a role in managing the crisis. Eight days before the Sandusky grand jury presentment was released this past November, Corbett's staff booked hotel rooms in State College. Becoming governor had made Corbett a trustee, and he had decided to attend his first board meeting, after missing the first four. During those days of crisis in State College, he lobbied for the ouster of Paterno and Spanier, ending with that conference call on Nov. 9. And when he was on campus the next day, after Spanier's resignation and Paterno's firing, he celebrated the leadership changes. "Throughout this whole process, I felt he had some ulterior motive," a trustee says of Corbett. "Most trustees felt uncomfortable with his role. It was odd for him to be there and participate the way he did. Very odd."

[zeke]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--graham-spanier-penn-state-freeh-report-joe-paterno-curtis-enis-jeff-nalley.html

[jkjsooner]

On what grounds? The AD was fired, the president of the university was fired, the coach was prosecuted and found guilty, the head coach is dead. The NCAA has no jurisdiction, no by-laws governing such things. And besides, none of the administration or staff responsible for any of it is still there. You think the players that are now at Penn St. should suffer for the actions of others? Tell you what...you did something wrong and got caught and prosecuted. But that isn't enough for me. I'm going to take your kid out and tie them to a post and have him whipped. Same logic applies. The players and staff now at Penn St. and all of their fans are as innocent as a newborn baby in this whole matter. Yet you would have them punished?

I bolded the only part that may be relevant.

The rest applies to almost all NCAA sanctions. It wasn't Reggie Bush or Pete Carroll who were punished at USC. It wasn't Gary Gibbs' or his player's fault for problems that occurred under Switzer.

Like it or not, in most cases the program itself is the only entity that can be punished. In many cases the NCAA has no power to punish those who directly committed the offenses. The players are usually long gone and often the coaches are as well. If it involves an external booster the NCAA has no authority to punish the booster - except possibly require the school to cut off affiliation with the booster.

There has to be a deterrent and you can't have an effective deterrent unless you accept that programs may be punished not just individuals.

[jkjsooner]

The vast majority of players and staff were innocent while Coach Hill and Charles Thompson were dealing cocaine, Jerry Parks was shooting Zarak Peters, and Nigel Clay and two others were raping coeds.


I agree with what you are trying to say but those actions had nothing at all to do with our probation or the lack of institutional control charge. In fact, our probation was handed down before these things happened.



December 19, 1988: The NCAA places OU’s football program on three years probation for 20 violations over an eight-year period, with sanctions banning the Sooners from bowl games in 1989 and 1990 and television in 1989. Among the violations: recruiting coordinator Shirley Vaughan giving players cash after selling their game tickets (which are legally given to them by the university), and Switzer using funds from his personal account for various OU business, including bonuses to his assistants.

Jan. 13, 1989: As players are lining up in the athletic dorm for haircuts, cornerback Jerry Parks confronts offensive lineman Zarak Peters about a borrowed cassette tape. When the confrontation escalates into pushing and shoving, Parks leaves and returns with a .22 caliber pistol. After more arguing, Parks shoots Peters in the chest, missing his heart by three inches. Parks allegedly then points the pistol at Thompson, then puts the gun to his own head and pulls the trigger. The gun misfires...

Jan. 21, 1989: An Oklahoma City woman alleges that five OU football players gang-raped her in Wilkinson Hall. After a 2½-week investigation, Cleveland County prosecutors charge running back Glenn Bell, offensive tackle Nigel Clay and tight end Bernard Hall with allegedly gang-raping a woman in Bud Wilkinson House...

Jan. 26, 1989: Thompson sells 17 grams of cocaine to an undercover FBI agent.



These did have a lot to do with Switzer being fired.

Note: I did not know that Parks tried to kill himself after shooting Peters.

[KantoSooner]

JK, relax, you didn't get the memo, apparently. Switzer is the debbil. Just go with it.

[jkjsooner]

At this point no. The sanctions weren't because of the criminal act itself. The sanctions were because of paymnets etc. If NCAA violations are uncovered against Penn St. in the legal process that is a horse of a different color but the criminal activity committed by PSU itself should not be an NCAA issue. It's just not what they are supposed to be about. Think of it this way. Where would you draw the line if members of the faculty, administration and coaching staff were accused or convicted of criminal behavior. Players for that matter too. Should the NCAA become involved if players are caught DUI. If not would they just pick and choose what criminal behavior they will go after? Does anybody just want to turn over more authority to the NCAA to go after wrongs or perceived wrongs. Where would you draw the line? This is just a road i don't want to see them go down to satisfy a bloodlust.

We have an All American who was a perfect example of this. The player stole gasoline. Had the gasoline been given to him it would have been a serious NCAA violation. That player might have been shown the door just like Bomar was. Luckily for him his action was illegal and outside the scope of the NCAA.

Outside of the NCAA, stealing is always more severe than accepting a gift. However, a player stealing something is not really within the scope of the NCAA. While it seems absurd, the NCAA is interested in competitive fairness not general morality. Receiving gifts can harm fairness. It's hard to argue the same for larceny.

Not saying the PSU coverup is exactly the same...

[ouwasp]

I'm not in favor of the DP.

But hopefully Penn St will set an example and donate millions of dollars to build hundreds of new prison cells for sex offenders. No, I'm not talking about treatment for those *******s, just lock 'em up forever.

Yes, such an institution could proudly bear the name of Sandusky.

[SoonerorLater]

I'm not in favor of the DP.

But hopefully Penn St will set an example and donate millions of dollars to build hundreds of new prison cells for sex offenders. No, I'm not talking about treatment for those *******s, just lock 'em up forever.

Yes, such an institution could proudly bear the name of Sandusky.


No donations for a new prison but by way of retribution Penn State looks like it will do some remodeling.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/penn-state-refurbish-showers-sandusky-sex-abuse-case-004745251--nfl.html

[FaninAma]

Badger,

The article you pasted is very enlightening. I definitely think Corbett's and The BoT's role in this mess needs to be looked at more closely. If Spanier somehow escapes prosecution then you know the fix is in to save the politicians who played a role in allowing Sandusky to continue his crimes. A public trial involving Spanier would shed a lot of light on this tragedy.

[fadada1]

very interesting discussion.

living in PA is very "polarized" right now. many are torn between knowing a joe paterno that was seen as infallable, good, a teacher, and a leader in the community... and a joe paterno that protected (with a few others) a monster, and football team, and a university's image and it's best interest. i grew up as a penn state fan, who considers state college and centre county somewhat of a second home. most of my family still lives in (or within 15 miles) state college. this whole thing has made me sick.

was discussing this today with a friend and coworker today, who happens to be a recent PSU grad. explained to him that i know all to well the "culture" of big-time college athletics, having graduated from OU and U. of Florida... and coached at the division 1 level. also told him that this "culture" in the south (i.e., OU, UF, bama, lsu, texas, etc...) makes "happy valley" look like a church softball picnic.

this, to me, is the problem. this "culture" is not unique to PSU... and it comes down to two things - power and money. the unfortunate thing is that PSU caught trying to protect their image by "hiding" the indescribable horrors sandusky carried out, for what appears to be even longer than what was recently known. you don't wake up one day at 50 years old and decide to be a pedophile. this **** has been going on for a LOOOONG time, imo.

i think most OU fans will agree that we've learned not to protect those student-athletes that can't play by the rules. maybe one of the reasons we like coach stoops so much - see the whole bomar thing. mind you, i am IN NO WAY comparing the two incidents. fortunately, we've never been put in the same position as PSU... and hopefully we never will. we do, however, put our football program on a pedestal similar to those at penn state, or any other big-time program. and because we do, we run the risk of falling into the same situation.

until we learn to put those that can't protect themselves first, and not the image of a university and it's football program, we will continue to make mistakes such as those at penn state. i don't know the answers of what penn state should do. while it might be a nice "gesture" by the university to suspend football for a year or two, it will never make up for what has been done by sandusky to these boys (now men), and the obvious cover-up by those that were in a position to stop it many years ago.

just my thoughts.

[8timechamps]

When I initially heard someone say "give PSU the death penalty", I thought "that's ridiculous, the current players had nothing to do with the transgressions of the previous coaches/monsters."

Then I thought about it...

When any school has had sanctions leveled by the NCAA, were the current players responsible? In almost every case, I think the answer is "no". So in that sense, PSU shouldn't be the exception to the rule.

Then I thought more about what should happen, and I finally decided that a one year ban on the football program would be a good start.

First, all current players should be given the option to transfer to any school they choose, and be allowed to do so without sitting the mandated one year. A second option would be provided for the players that don't want to transfer; and that would be a free ride to finish out their undergraduate degree at Penn State. In that scenario, the only thing being hurt (from a players perspective), is playing at the school they chose. Yeah, it would suck, but given the magnitude of the situation, it's a small price to pay.

The reason I think PSU needs a year off is simple. Get the undivided attention of the entire NCAA world, especially PSU, and let them know that this will never happen again. And if it does, it will be dealt with in the strongest possible way the NCAA can sanction a program.

This is so far beyond a booster paying a kid, a tattoo parlor giving out some free ink or an athlete selling his game-worn jersey. This is so far beyond a player selling drugs. This is even beyond a player shaving points or throwing a game.

Was JoePa a pedophile? No, there is no evidence to say otherwise. Did he do a lot of good for college football? If you're a PSU fan/grad, the answer is a resounding "YES!", and even to the casual CFB fan, the answer is somewhere between "sure" and "I guess", but the decisions he made to protect a pedophile cancel out just about every 'good' thing he did for CFB.

JoPa's legacy is forever changed. There will never be a time in history when his name is mentioned, that our minds won't immediately gravitate to the horrors that occurred at PSU.

So, to me, allowing PSU to take the field and the 100k+ fans cheer and celebrate at the very venue where the atrocities occurred and subsequently covered up, seems very wrong to me. Whatever you think of JoPa, this entire situation is much bigger than he was. However, he was the one person that could have said "NO, THIS ENDS NOW", and it would have ended. Instead, he decided that the negative PR was too much to risk. Not a wise move.

Take a year off, bite the bullet, help those who were directly affected. Then, and only then, move forward with a new. clean version of PSU football.

In the end, football (no matter how intense the rivalry, no matter how important to the thousands and thousands of fans) is still a game. Life would go on at PSU after a one year absence from the gridiron. And it would show the world that the powers-that-be in Happy Valley fully understand the severity of the situation, and are doing everything in their power to right the wrong.

[ouwasp]

8times, that is a very well put together argument. I appreciate someone that can articulate without sounding pompous, vindictive, or just downright bloodthirtsy.

I think the DP is not a solution. I am not convinced that it solves anything; it just gives the masses a "feel good" sudden sense of justice. But it would be a gut-punch to the good people of Pennsylvania that have taken quite a few body blows over the past months, with more sure to come. Plus, it would be a terrible economic price to pay. Think about how many low-to-middle class people absolutely depend on Penn State football to provide and/or supplement their income.

This outcry for the DP has a knee-jerk, lynch-mob smell to it. The rapist is in prison for the rest of his life. Coach Paterno's reputation is forever shattered. Others will be brought to justice. There will be a tremendous settlement coming to the victims.

Whether the 2012 football season is played in State College or not, all of the above is true. And isn't the above what matters? Why pile on?

If Penn State declares a self-imposed TV ban/bowl ban for this year, that could be a gesture of contrition that might satisfy a good number of people. But it seems as if many would not settle for anything else but dismantlement.

[Curly Bill]

8times, that is a very well put together argument. I appreciate someone that can articulate without sounding pompous, vindictive, or just downright bloodthirtsy.

I think the DP is not a solution. I am not convinced that it solves anything; it just gives the masses a "feel good" sudden sense of justice. But it would be a gut-punch to the good people of Pennsylvania that have taken quite a few body blows over the past months, with more sure to come. Plus, it would be a terrible economic price to pay. Think about how many low-to-middle class people absolutely depend on Penn State football to provide and/or supplement their income.

This outcry for the DP has a knee-jerk, lynch-mob smell to it. The rapist is in prison for the rest of his life. Coach Paterno's reputation is forever shattered. Others will be brought to justice. There will be a tremendous settlement coming to the victims.

Whether the 2012 football season is played in State College or not, all of the above is true. And isn't the above what matters? Why pile on?

If Penn State declares a self-imposed TV ban/bowl ban for this year, that could be a gesture of contrition that might satisfy a good number of people. But it seems as if many would not settle for anything else but dismantlement.

Be that as it may, and this is an argument I've heard from a few people, the message has to be sent that no matter how big a cash cow, nor how much a football team means to a region or whatever, it is not too big too fail if it does something so heinous as PSU did.

[olevetonahill]

Be that as it may, and this is an argument I've heard from a few people, the message has to be sent that no matter how big a cash cow, nor how much a football team means to a region or whatever, it is not too big too fail if it does something so heinous as PSU did.

Agreed bro

Comes a time when Ya just have to pay fer yer mistakes .

[Curly Bill]

Agreed bro

Comes a time when Ya just have to pay fer yer mistakes .

Exactly. To make the argument that PSU football means too much, either economically or spiritually if you will, to be put down for a year or two is just wrong-headed, and is the kind of thinking that allowed this to be covered up for so long in the first place.

[KantoSooner]

I was surprised to get a pretty favorable response to the DP from two guys who work in PSU admin. One is in favor of killing off the program permanently, the other for "2-3 years".

[badger]

If PSU is allowed to continue playing football, I hope no recruit above a 1-star ranking (yes, I know must recruiting sites are too nice to give recruits anything below 2-stars, that's my point) commits to them.

The best case scenario would be for them to continue awarding football scholarships without allowing them to play football games, at least for a season or two. That way, the argument about punishing the kids isn't as strong, since they're still getting their educational opportunities, still training for eventual games, etc. The university just can't make any money off of them for a season or two.

[jkjsooner]

This is so far beyond a player selling drugs.

Are you talking about the illegal acts of Sandusky? Are you talking about the coverup? Are you talking about legal/ethical standards or NCAA standards?

These are relevant questions here.

From a legal perspective, most would agree that the act of pedophilia is much worse than selling drugs.

From the NCAA's perspective, they've never concerned themselves with illegal actions that are not also NCAA violations. Unless Sandusky was exchanging sexual favors to try to lure players to PSU then that act of pedophilia is strictly a legal issue.

If you're talking about the coverup at PSU and the legal/ethical perspective, I'd disagree with you. I would not put Paterno in the category of a drug dealer.

If you're talking about the coverup and from the NCAA's perspective, then of course this is more severe. They may get involved because of the coverup whereas they would never get involved with a player selling drugs as long as the offenses were reported to the police and the university police did not contribute to a coverup.

[jkjsooner]

The best case scenario would be for them to continue awarding football scholarships without allowing them to play football games, at least for a season or two.

Would you give an exception to the "five years to play four" rule so that these players could play four full seasons? Even if the DP was only one year, you have some guys who have already used up their redshirt year.

I think this should have been the case for SMU (including the amendment of the eligibility rule). I don't know how many would have stayed under those circumstances but it might have limited the long term impact to them. Nobody wanted the SMU program to be destroyed like it was and I don't think many really looked ahead to predict the impact of the DP once the actual penalty phase expired.

[tomtom]

According to rivals.com penn st 2013 recruting lists 14 commits 7 are 3 star and 7 are 4 star.
OU has 12 commits 7 are 3 star ad 5 are 4 star.

[picasso]

Yup, Those that are saying ' He Apologized' To Barry dont seem to understand. He Said it to begin with so **** him. He also apologized to the Victems of old Jerry too dint he?

May he rot in hell and keep a front seat warm for jerry

He said it before the Tickle Monster took hold.

And I'm not going to fault him for saying it. The two coaches he mentioned got their programs in some deep doo doo.

Keep in mind I think this cover-up trumps anything any program has ever done.

[badger]

The NCAA is apparently considering the death penalty.

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/article.aspx?subjectid=231&articleid=20120717_231_0_NEWYOR455096)

If the NCAA doesn't punish them, I hope others do:

- Don't schedule Penn State as a non-conference opponent. In ANY sport.
- Don't buy Penn State merchandise, and I'm not just talking Nittany Lion t-shirts. Any bowl merchandise with their logo, any Big Ten tournament stuff, anything that they might get any semblance of revenue from.
- Don't watch Penn State games, in person or on TV. Send a message to advertisers that you aren't supporting anything that supports that school's athletics, even indirectly.

I am thoroughly disgusted with them and even moreso after the Freeh report. I watched the Nebrasky opening where they had a moment of silence for the victims, then I shut that game off last season.

[badger]

Plane banner to the rescue. (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8173833/anti-joe-paterno-statue-banner-flown-beaver-stadium)

I am kind of surprised vandals haven't gotten the statue yet. I wonder if some delusional JokePa fans are guarding it 24/7

[MamaMia]

Plane banner to the rescue. (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8173833/anti-joe-paterno-statue-banner-flown-beaver-stadium)

I am kind of surprised vandals haven't gotten the statue yet. I wonder if some delusional JokePa fans are guarding it 24/7Too risky; not worth the jail time. If they don't have cameras all about, people may think they do.

[8timechamps]

8times, that is a very well put together argument. I appreciate someone that can articulate without sounding pompous, vindictive, or just downright bloodthirtsy.

I think the DP is not a solution. I am not convinced that it solves anything; it just gives the masses a "feel good" sudden sense of justice. But it would be a gut-punch to the good people of Pennsylvania that have taken quite a few body blows over the past months, with more sure to come. Plus, it would be a terrible economic price to pay. Think about how many low-to-middle class people absolutely depend on Penn State football to provide and/or supplement their income.

This outcry for the DP has a knee-jerk, lynch-mob smell to it. The rapist is in prison for the rest of his life. Coach Paterno's reputation is forever shattered. Others will be brought to justice. There will be a tremendous settlement coming to the victims.

Whether the 2012 football season is played in State College or not, all of the above is true. And isn't the above what matters? Why pile on?

If Penn State declares a self-imposed TV ban/bowl ban for this year, that could be a gesture of contrition that might satisfy a good number of people. But it seems as if many would not settle for anything else but dismantlement.

I can certainly understand where you are coming from. In fact, the only reason I can see that would justify not placing a ban on the program is exactly what you mention. The livelihood of many small businesses rides on the continuation of the program. No matter how you slice it, it's going to be a difficult decision to make, and there are going to be many unhappy folks on either side.

[8timechamps]

Are you talking about the illegal acts of Sandusky? Are you talking about the coverup? Are you talking about legal/ethical standards or NCAA standards?

These are relevant questions here.

From a legal perspective, most would agree that the act of pedophilia is much worse than selling drugs.

From the NCAA's perspective, they've never concerned themselves with illegal actions that are not also NCAA violations. Unless Sandusky was exchanging sexual favors to try to lure players to PSU then that act of pedophilia is strictly a legal issue.

If you're talking about the coverup at PSU and the legal/ethical perspective, I'd disagree with you. I would not put Paterno in the category of a drug dealer.

If you're talking about the coverup and from the NCAA's perspective, then of course this is more severe. They may get involved because of the coverup whereas they would never get involved with a player selling drugs as long as the offenses were reported to the police and the university police did not contribute to a coverup.

I am talking about the situation in it's entirety. It all starts with Sandusky, but the cover up is just as disgusting to me.

The actions of Sandusky speak for themselves. As for Joe Paterno (and the others actively involved in the cover up), I think ethically they are just as bad and at fault. By all accounts, the buck stopped with JoPa. As I mentioned in my first post, if there was someone that could have spoken up and put an end to what was going on, it was JoPa. He knowingly turned away. In this case, no action is as bad as actively covering up for Sandusky. And this went on for years.

Was a competitive advantage gained from Sandusky's actions and subsequent cover up? Of course not. However, the lack of institutional control was clearly present (strange way to word that I suppose). And that is an NCAA violation.

[SoonerorLater]

I am talking about the situation in it's entirety. It all starts with Sandusky, but the cover up is just as disgusting to me.

The actions of Sandusky speak for themselves. As for Joe Paterno (and the others actively involved in the cover up), I think ethically they are just as bad and at fault. By all accounts, the buck stopped with JoPa. As I mentioned in my first post, if there was someone that could have spoken up and put an end to what was going on, it was JoPa. He knowingly turned away. In this case, no action is as bad as actively covering up for Sandusky. And this went on for years.

Was a competitive advantage gained from Sandusky's actions and subsequent cover up? Of course not. However, the lack of institutional control was clearly present (strange way to word that I suppose). And that is an NCAA violation.


"Lack of Institutional Control" as it has ever been approached by the NCAA to this point refers only to lack of control regarding NCAA rules NOT illegal acts. As reprehensible as this is, it is not a violation of any NCAA rules. This is not a road any college football fan should want to go down with regards to giving the NCAA power to go after member institutions for criminal or civil matters. We have a judicial system for that.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

[QUOTE=Tear Down This

Yeah. What did Scott Hill and Charles Thompson selling cocaine have to do with Joe Bowden making a tackle? What did Jerry Parks shooting Zarak Peters have to do with Mike Gaddis running for a touchdown? What did Nigel Clay raping a coed have to do with R.D. Lashar kicking a field goal?

Per NCAA bylaws, an institution is to control the actions within its athletic department. The athletic department, in turn, is to police its coaches, players, and peripheral staff. We didn't do it in 1988. Penn State didn't do it for the better part of a decade.

It's not difficult to understand.

Many innocent players were punished when we were put on probation in 1989-1990. It wasn't Gary Gibbs fault, but he bore the brunt of lowered scholarships and dealing with the fallout on the recruiting trails.

You either follow the rules of the organizations you belongs to or you don't. The NCAA bylaws have expectations regarding ethics, and Penn State did not live up to them. .[/QUOTE]

I don't agree with punishing the innocent. I don't care what the NCAA did to OU or why when it comes to this case. Who will get hurt by giving PSU the death penalty? ANYONE that was guilty? Paterno is dead. The others have been canned and are going to in jail soon. Kill the football program and all those kids lose their scholarships. The other sports suffer due to the reduction of approximately $53 million. The town suffers due to lack of people in hotels and restaurants. You will put a severe hurt on that entire community. It's wholly out of line. Completely unfair to people that were oblivious to any wrong doing.

This is a criminal matter. The guilty should be punished. The victims compensated handsomely. The guy that waters the grass at the stadium should not have to see the effects of this.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

...as we hurl our slings and arrows...

Who's guarding our watchtower?

If there had not been a single internet whistleblower to bring about the Big Red Autos case do you think OU would have done a thing to investigate whether or not these stupid kids were doing things the right way? I doubt it. As much as I love my home state, Oklahoma is still home to too many deluded Billy Bob jock-sniffing wannabe kingmakers who probably think they're just doing their part to keep up with the Red McCombses of Texas and the T. Boone Pickenses of oSu. (And no, it isn't just Oklahoma. I'm talking to you Ohio, Michigan, and Nebraska.)

Call me crazy, but I think the NCAA ought to do a full scale in-depth audit of every FBS school. It would take years. And maybe it actually should be a program. NCAA randomly selects 5-10 schools every year and strips them down to the keel, scrape down and discard the barnacles, inspect every bit of rigging and riveting, mandate repairs required to make it a sound ship.

Quit relying on these institutions to police themselves. It should be painfully obvious after 125 years littered with scandal that these operations and the people playing in them are too nepotistic and incestuous and powerful to be relied upon to actually do the right thing of their own accord.

I don't think Penn State just sullied their own reputation in this horrific affair. They lit a warning beacon to all of college football.

[8timechamps]

"Lack of Institutional Control" as it has ever been approached by the NCAA to this point refers only to lack of control regarding NCAA rules NOT illegal acts. As reprehensible as this is, it is not a violation of any NCAA rules. This is not a road any college football fan should want to go down with regards to giving the NCAA power to go after member institutions for criminal or civil matters. We have a judicial system for that.

I disagree. These were actions that occurred in a NCAA facility, involving an NCAA coach. The NCAA has a rightful place to investigate and punish should they find cause. I understand your point though. It would seem that the NCAA rule-book should only be used to enforce sanctions on programs that seek to gain a competitive advantage. However, I don't think the NCAA rules (as currently written) provide that specific language. Which is why the NCAA is investigating.

I will have no problem if the NCAA opts out of this situation, but I think they find themselves in a tough spot. They know a message should be sent, they just don't know if they are in a place to send it.

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

I disagree. These were actions that occurred in a NCAA facility, involving an NCAA coach. The NCAA has a rightful place to investigate and punish should they find cause. I understand your point though. It would seem that the NCAA rule-book should only be used to enforce sanctions on programs that seek to gain a competitive advantage. However, I don't think the NCAA rules (as currently written) provide that specific language. Which is why the NCAA is investigating.

I will have no problem if the NCAA opts out of this situation, but I think they find themselves in a tough spot. They know a message should be sent, they just don't know if they are in a place to send it.


WRT what I bolded (and I am not arguing with you, just jumping off from your post): that's just the thing. If PSU officials had reported the 2001 incident to authorities as they should have, and during that investigation it came to light that they knew all about the 1998 incident but did nothing to stop Sandusky because charges weren't filed, not even effectively prohibiting him from bringing kids to PSU locales and events, that is creating a competitive recruiting advantage by keeping their image pristine.

What player wouldn't want--or his parents not want him--to play under the sainted Joe Paterno in his vaunted program?

What player would--and his parents want him--to play under Joe Paterno, pedophile enabler?

So who knows how many players in the last thirteen years would have gone to school somewhere besides PSU had the truth come out?

To me there is no question that this is an issue of competitive advantage.

[Curly Bill]

WRT what I bolded (and I am not arguing with you, just jumping off from your post): that's just the thing. If PSU officials had reported the 2001 incident to authorities as they should have, and during that investigation it came to light that they knew all about the 1998 incident but did nothing to stop Sandusky because charges weren't filed, not even effectively prohibiting him from bringing kids to PSU locales and events, that is creating a competitive recruiting advantage by keeping their image pristine.

What player wouldn't want--or his parents not want him--to play under the sainted Joe Paterno in his vaunted program?

What player would--and his parents want him--to play under Joe Paterno, pedophile enabler?

So who knows how many players in the last thirteen years would have gone to school somewhere besides PSU had the truth come out?

To me there is no question that this is an issue of competitive advantage.

Yep!!!! ^^^^^^^^^

Anyone trying to argue the NCAA has no jurisdiction in this because this is a criminal matter and not a football matter are only half right, and it's the first half.

[BigJerm7]

I missed the part where the "blame" was placed solely on Paterno.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8175400/missouri-coach-gary-pinkel-defends-joe-paterno-sec-media-days

There are also more accusers coming forward reporting abuse as early as the 70's.

[8timechamps]

WRT what I bolded (and I am not arguing with you, just jumping off from your post): that's just the thing. If PSU officials had reported the 2001 incident to authorities as they should have, and during that investigation it came to light that they knew all about the 1998 incident but did nothing to stop Sandusky because charges weren't filed, not even effectively prohibiting him from bringing kids to PSU locales and events, that is creating a competitive recruiting advantage by keeping their image pristine.

What player wouldn't want--or his parents not want him--to play under the sainted Joe Paterno in his vaunted program?

What player would--and his parents want him--to play under Joe Paterno, pedophile enabler?

So who knows how many players in the last thirteen years would have gone to school somewhere besides PSU had the truth come out?

To me there is no question that this is an issue of competitive advantage.

Very good point that I hadn't even thought about.

[SoonerorLater]

To everybody wanting the NCAA to interject themselves in this let me say this....You don't. The precedent that would be set would almost surely kick off unintended and ongoing consequences that will not be good. The idea that the NCAA could start wedging themselves into the top of pending legal investigations of member institutions is a really bad idea. Do you really want the boards, presidents etc. considering NCAA ramifications when working with legal authorities and counsel on pending criminal and civil actions?

What you have in the case of Penn State is a salad bowl of moral, ethical, organizational and legal questions. Because people just naturally want to lash out and inflict as much damage to the guilty parties as possible they will be willing to give authority where it doesn't belong if it will hurt the perps. The best way is let the legal system deal with criminal conduct, The NCAA deal with athletic rules violations,(competitive advantage is a non starter in my book) the new administration deal with the organizational culture that led to this mess and the student athletes and their parents consider the moral implications when deciding where to attend college.

[8timechamps]

To everybody wanting the NCAA to interject themselves in this let me say this....You don't. The precedent that would be set would almost surely kick off unintended and ongoing consequences that will not be good. The idea that the NCAA could start wedging themselves into the top of pending legal investigations of member institutions is a really bad idea. Do you really want the boards, presidents etc. considering NCAA ramifications when working with legal authorities and counsel on pending criminal and civil actions?

What you have in the case of Penn State is a salad bowl of moral, ethical, organizational and legal questions. Because people just naturally want to lash out and inflict as much damage to the guilty parties as possible they will be willing to give authority where it doesn't belong if it will hurt the perps. The best way is let the legal system deal with criminal conduct, The NCAA deal with athletic rules violations,(competitive advantage is a non starter in my book) the new administration deal with the organizational culture that led to this mess and the student athletes and their parents consider the moral implications when deciding where to attend college.

As I mentioned earlier, I do understand your point of view. And to some extent, I agree. But I've given this more thought today, and here is how my thinking evolved:

When an athlete deals drugs (or even buys drugs), how is that a competitive advantage? I would argue that it's not, yet the NCAA has a precedent of penalizing programs that have fostered drug selling/using athletes. Since that is already the status quo, would an investigation/sanction against PSU really be a stretch?

Also, as mentioned above (in SanDiegoSoonerGal's post), one could argue that the cover-up was, in fact, a competitive advantage gained from deflecting the "negative PR". I'm sure there are plenty of recruits that have gone through the PSU program that would probably have gone in another direction were things made public.

The best thing the PSU board of trustees could do is place themselves on a one or two year ban. Then, and only then, would the country agree to start fresh with PSU (as a football program). Of course a ban (of any length) isn't going to change what happened, but it would be a step in the right direction.

[olevetonahill]

http://www.wearysloth.com/Titles/t7965.gif

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

Just for clarification. I'm not necessarily advocating that the NCAA give PSU the death penalty. I believe that the NCAA has about as much legitimate authority as that man behind the curtain, but nonetheless, it still has authority.

( If you don't have a short attention span and you do have some time to kill, this is a fascinating article about it:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/10/the-shame-of-college-sports/8643/ )

On the other hand, I am also a "good for the goose, good for the gander" kind of gal. And PSU has without a shadow of a doubt demonstrated lack of institional control and unfair competitive advantage in violation of that man behind the curtain's rules.

[soonerstan56]

Maybe a left turn here, but anyone hoping the NCAA will do something about this awful situation should remember their past history of trying to punish the wrong doers while protecting the innocent.

Remember Hart Lee Dykes(sp?) ?

Stan

[Wishboned]

The statue is down.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-paterno-statue-20120722,0,7120603.story


And the hammer is coming down tomorrow.

Rumors are no death penalty, but Penn State will wish they had enacted it. Supposedly unprecedented punishment.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...aa-source-says

[trwxxa]

I don't know how far the NCAA can go with this, but I hope it includes a ban on outside donations to the athletic department, including from general university funds. This includes having to pay an annual fee for the right to buy tickets.

The upcoming civil penalties and loss of corporate and government funding will take care of the rest of the school.

I have no problem with the athletics continuing as a whole. Just make it impossible to do this profitably.

[Harris County Sooner]

WRT what I bolded (and I am not arguing with you, just jumping off from your post): that's just the thing. If PSU officials had reported the 2001 incident to authorities as they should have, and during that investigation it came to light that they knew all about the 1998 incident but did nothing to stop Sandusky because charges weren't filed, not even effectively prohibiting him from bringing kids to PSU locales and events, that is creating a competitive recruiting advantage by keeping their image pristine.

What player wouldn't want--or his parents not want him--to play under the sainted Joe Paterno in his vaunted program?

What player would--and his parents want him--to play under Joe Paterno, pedophile enabler?

So who knows how many players in the last thirteen years would have gone to school somewhere besides PSU had the truth come out?

To me there is no question that this is an issue of competitive advantage.
Well thought out. I was sitting on the fence and your point just toppled me over to the NCAA having jurisdiction to penalize side.

[olevetonahill]

Well thought out. I was sitting on the fence and your point just toppled me over to the NCAA having jurisdiction to penalize side.

She pretty smart fer a woman :biggrin:

[All_Day_28]

WRT what I bolded (and I am not arguing with you, just jumping off from your post): that's just the thing. If PSU officials had reported the 2001 incident to authorities as they should have, and during that investigation it came to light that they knew all about the 1998 incident but did nothing to stop Sandusky because charges weren't filed, not even effectively prohibiting him from bringing kids to PSU locales and events, that is creating a competitive recruiting advantage by keeping their image pristine.

What player wouldn't want--or his parents not want him--to play under the sainted Joe Paterno in his vaunted program?

What player would--and his parents want him--to play under Joe Paterno, pedophile enabler?

So who knows how many players in the last thirteen years would have gone to school somewhere besides PSU had the truth come out?

To me there is no question that this is an issue of competitive advantage.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[olevetonahill]

The statue is down.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-paterno-statue-20120722,0,7120603.story


And the hammer is coming down tomorrow.

Rumors are no death penalty, but Penn State will wish they had enacted it. Supposedly unprecedented punishment.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...aa-source-says

Heh
Just another crooked regime toppled

http://tammybruce.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/wheresmybutt.jpg

[8timechamps]

Not sure if the NCAA is too afraid to bring down the DP, or if this will be a punishment that essentially is the death penalty without the name.

We'll know tomorrow. But I'm thinking it's going to basically cripple the program (as I think it should). Serious loss of scholarships.

[SoonerorLater]

If the NCAA decides on the nuclear option it is time for Penn State to "lawyer up". No way should Penn State cow-tow to the Sheriff of Notingham we call the NCAA. As much as I despise what Penn State did I never want the NCAA to have this kind of power. However Penn State will most likely just bend over and take it. Everybody hates Penn State right now but I hope the same folks remember this years from now when it comes back to bite them in the *** when sanctions are levied against their schools for who knows what kind of legal infractions.

[8timechamps]

If the NCAA decides on the nuclear option it is time for Penn State to "lawyer up". No way should Penn State cow-tow to the Sheriff of Notingham we call the NCAA. As much as I despise what Penn State did I never want the NCAA to have this kind of power. However Penn State will most likely just bend over and take it. Everybody hates Penn State right now but I hope the same folks remember this years from now when it comes back to bite them in the *** when sanctions are levied against their schools for who knows what kind of legal infractions.

I think the NCAA has a legitimate case for levying a penalty. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, had the Sandusky issue been made public at the time it was discovered, there is a very high likelihood that it would have cost Penn State highly sought after recruits. However, it was covered up, and subsequently PSU continued with it's untarnished image. To me, that is a pretty clear competitive advantage if there ever was one.

[IBleedCrimson]

I think that ncaa has plenty of reasons to get in on this. But no investigation, no formal hearings, no allowing penn st to present evidence to defend themselves (there isnt any but still)...

Even if they use the Freeh report in lieu of their own investigation, how do they explain the lack of hearings?

Is this considered part of their established abilities, or set precedents for new ones? I'm very confused by the suddenness of this.

[Breadburner]

I think its good that its swift....Penn St themselves are probably behind it.....

[IBleedCrimson]

Yeah, but its swift because they bypassed almost all procedures used by the infractions committee.

Methinks, this is precedent for new ncaa power. In this case, im fine with it.

EDIT:
"Two sources with knowledge of the Penn State penalties said NCAA president Mark Emmert will announce Monday that he is personally sanctioning Penn State after receiving approval from the association’s Division I Board of directors..."

This is first time these powers have been used by the ncaa president, hence the swiftness.

EDIT #2: the link
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--sources--ncaa-president-to-hit-penn-state-with--staggering--penalties-from-sandusky-scandal.html

[trwxxa]

CBS Sports is reporting there will also be a fine of between $30 million and $60 million.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/eye-on-college-football/19632027

I hope there is a stipulation this comes from the university itself and not contributed by outside sources. I'm not sure how they do that.

[8timechamps]

I think that ncaa has plenty of reasons to get in on this. But no investigation, no formal hearings, no allowing penn st to present evidence to defend themselves (there isnt any but still)...

Even if they use the Freeh report in lieu of their own investigation, how do they explain the lack of hearings?

Is this considered part of their established abilities, or set precedents for new ones? I'm very confused by the suddenness of this.

There is no question that the NCAA moved extremely swift on this case. Heck, Miami has been the target of new allegations, and the ones dicovered last season haven't even been punished.

[Curly Bill]

I'm sorta getting the message that turning your backs while little boys are molested on your campus might not be ok!

[SoonerPride]

However Penn State will most likely just bend over and take it.

Um.....really?

[SoonerorLater]

CBS Sports is reporting there will also be a fine of between $30 million and $60 million.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/eye-on-college-football/19632027

I hope there is a stipulation this comes from the university itself and not contributed by outside sources. I'm not sure how they do that.

At 60 million I don't pay if I'm Penn State. No bowls? Where is the incentive for them? I would file lawsuit against the NCAA and Emmert individually and collectively. I would hire people to picket the NCAA offices and the personal residences of everybody involved in the levy of the penalties. For 60 mil you can hire a lot of protestors. There is no due process in this. Just some arbitrary penalties based on the whims of a few pious administrators. I would turn their lives into a living hell. Every time they stepped out the door of their offices or their residences they would be feel the pressure. Penn State should never give in to the NCAA Gestapo tactics. Penn State needs to go on the offensive.

[Seamus]

At 60 million I don't pay if I'm Penn State. No bowls? Where is the incentive for them? I would file lawsuit against the NCAA and Emmert individually and collectively. I would hire people to picket the NCAA offices and the personal residences of everybody involved in the levy of the penalties. For 60 mil you can hire a lot of protestors. There is no due process in this. Just some arbitrary penalties based on the whims of a few pious administrators. I would turn their lives into a living hell. Every time they stepped out the door of their offices or their residences they would be feel the pressure. Penn State should never give in to the NCAA Gestapo tactics. Penn State needs to go on the offensive.

So, you too sodomize boys in the shower?

[Curly Bill]

At 60 million I don't pay if I'm Penn State. No bowls? Where is the incentive for them? I would file lawsuit against the NCAA and Emmert individually and collectively. I would hire people to picket the NCAA offices and the personal residences of everybody involved in the levy of the penalties. For 60 mil you can hire a lot of protestors. There is no due process in this. Just some arbitrary penalties based on the whims of a few pious administrators. I would turn their lives into a living hell. Every time they stepped out the door of their offices or their residences they would be feel the pressure. Penn State should never give in to the NCAA Gestapo tactics. Penn State needs to go on the offensive.

They covered up molesting little boys - that doesn't give them a lot of capital to go on the offensive against anyone.

[Curly Bill]

Was that really a serious post I just responded to? PSU covered up molesting little boys, yet they're supposed to go on the offensive? Really? And make the "pious administrators" lives a living hell? Like Sandusky and his enablers did to the boys he raped?

Naw, that post couldn't have been serious. I'm sure he just forgot to put the winky so we'd know it was sarcasm. I hope so anyway....

[SoonerorLater]

So, you too sodomize boys in the shower?

Based on your avatar and previous posts if there were any sodomizing you look like the guy to do it.

[SoonerorLater]

Was that really a serious post I just responded to? PSU covered up molesting little boys, yet they're supposed to go on the offensive? Really? And make the "pious administrators" lives a living hell? Like Sandusky and his enablers did to the boys he raped?

Naw, that post couldn't have been serious. I'm sure he just forgot to put the winky so we'd know it was sarcasm. I hope so anyway....


It absolutely is a serious post. Nowhere did I say any of this is OK. Is that understood? Sandusky is in jail, Paterno is dead. The culpable Penn State Administration is facing criminal charges. The victims have legal recourse against Penn State. Yet for some reason there is a group of misguided individuals that think the NCAA needs to be involved in a way that is out of their scope other than they arbitrarily think Penn State needs to be punished. Not because they broke any NCAA rules but because they are bad guys. I don't want any of these people to get away with anything. I also don't want the NCAA given one more bit of power. They already have too bleeping much as it is.

[Curly Bill]

It absolutely is a serious post. Nowhere did I say any of this is OK. Is that understood? Sandusky is in jail, Paterno is dead. The culpable Penn State Administration is facing criminal charges. The victims have legal recourse against Penn State. Yet for some reason there is a group of misguided individuals that think the NCAA needs to be involved in a way that is out of their scope other than they arbitrarily think Penn State needs to be punished. Not because they broke any NCAA rules but because they are bad guys. I don't want any of these people to get away with anything. I also don't want the NCAA given one more bit of power. They already have too bleeping much as it is.

Lack of institutional control is a pretty serious breach last time I checked. And you might not want to watch the news tomorrow, because me and about 98% of the population is gonna be pretty happy that the NCAA is gonna hammer PSU.

[SoonerMom2]

They just said on ESPN that they believe the new Penn State President has been part of this whole deal with the NCAA -- the Freeh investigation is being used by the NCAA, the Board of the NCAA has given their approval and the head of the board will be on the conference call tomorrow morning, and looks to be a one time deal because it is so aggregious. One of them asked if the athletic department knew what was coming down and they said no but they believe the President does. Probably why he ordered the statue taken down this morning.

Smart if the Penn State President is involved because he is sending a powerful message that no program is bigger than Penn State as a whole which is where the problem happened. Football was Penn State and Paterno seems to have run everything to benefit the football program. If I was guessing, I would say the Board of Regents probably has an idea of what is coming down.

Big 10 is waiting to see the outcome of tomorrow morning before they take action according to the President of the Big 10 Presidents who hails from Iowa.

[nighttrain12]

Where's the outrage towards McQueary? He's the only one (excluding janitors) who actually saw this happening on campus and he didn't go to the police at some point? I thought Joe Pa said in an interview he didn't realize (i.e. too senile) McQ was talking about an actual male on male rape.

[Seamus]

Based on your avatar and previous posts if there were any sodomizing you look like the guy to do it.

So now James Joyce, one of the most influential writers of the 20th century and author of "Ulysses," is a pedophile. And I apparently am because I honor a great writer by using his image as an avatar.

You are one seriously narrow-minded idiot.

[Curly Bill]

So now James Joyce, one of the most influential writers of the 20th century and author of "Ulysses," is a pedophile. And I apparently am because I honor a great writer by using his image as an avatar.

You are one seriously narrow-minded idiot.

I got $50 says he thought your avatar was actually a picture of you!

[Wishboned]

Where's the outrage towards McQueary? He's the only one (excluding janitors) who actually saw this happening on campus and he didn't go to the police at some point? I thought Joe Pa said in an interview he didn't realize (i.e. too senile) McQ was talking about an actual male on male rape.

I've got all kinds of outrage towards McQueary. I hope the only job he's ever able to get is mopping the floors of the porn viewing booths at an adult bookstore.

[Seamus]

I got $50 says he thought your avatar was actually a picture of you!

Bwahaha, Bill! You're all right, mate -- spek coming.

[Curly Bill]

Bwahaha, Bill! You're all right, mate -- spek coming.

Sweet! :cheerful:

[ouflak]

Looking like Penn State is going to get off with bowl/TV bans and scholarship stuff, which is practically meaningless no matter how 'meaningful' they try to make it sound.

[olevetonahill]

Bwahaha, Bill! You're all right, mate -- spek coming.

Hell I thot it was a John Lennon look alike :shame:

[SoonerorLater]

So now James Joyce, one of the most influential writers of the 20th century and author of "Ulysses," is a pedophile. And I apparently am because I honor a great writer by using his image as an avatar.

You are one seriously narrow-minded idiot.

And you are a*hole and an internet cheap shot sniper. I probably should have been clearer about that on my first response.
I would also say if there is a dumbass in this it's you. Nothing in any of my posts even remotely implied anything Penn State did was ok. You just took it as a chance to take a swipe from behind the keyboard.

[SoonerorLater]

I got $50 says he thought your avatar was actually a picture of you!

Then you need to pay him the the $50. I didn't think the picture was of him. I didn't know it was James Joyce either.

[8timechamps]

At 60 million I don't pay if I'm Penn State. No bowls? Where is the incentive for them? I would file lawsuit against the NCAA and Emmert individually and collectively. I would hire people to picket the NCAA offices and the personal residences of everybody involved in the levy of the penalties. For 60 mil you can hire a lot of protestors. There is no due process in this. Just some arbitrary penalties based on the whims of a few pious administrators. I would turn their lives into a living hell. Every time they stepped out the door of their offices or their residences they would be feel the pressure. Penn State should never give in to the NCAA Gestapo tactics. Penn State needs to go on the offensive.

I honestly don't follow any of your "logic". I've tried to simplify the reasons the NCAA stepped in and acted on this, but you seem so hell-bent on calling out the NCAA that it probably doesn't matter anyway.

I don't understand how you think the whole ordeal being criminal and breaking NCAA rules is mutually exclusive. It's not.

The bottom line is that the Penn State BOT not only acknowledged their lack of institutional control, but accepted the punishment today. Those people are on the front lines of this entire thing, and they're okay with it. Why wouldn't you be?

[8timechamps]

Looking like Penn State is going to get off with bowl/TV bans and scholarship stuff, which is practically meaningless no matter how 'meaningful' they try to make it sound.

I don't think so. Within two years, Penn State will basically be a glorified walk-on program. The punishment was intended to cripple the football program without taking away the games. The bowl ban is pretty meaningless, but PSU will be off the map (for football) by the time the 4 years are up. I would be surprised if PSU is sniffing a winning season within the next ten years. With the possible exception of this year (depending on how many players stay).

[Landthief 1972]

"Lack of Institutional Control" as it has ever been approached by the NCAA to this point refers only to lack of control regarding NCAA rules NOT illegal acts. As reprehensible as this is, it is not a violation of any NCAA rules. This is not a road any college football fan should want to go down with regards to giving the NCAA power to go after member institutions for criminal or civil matters. We have a judicial system for that.

The NCAA specifically lists several by-laws that Penn State broke/violated. (http://www.ncaa.com/content/ncaa-letter-penn-state)

The very first thing mentioned is ethical conduct. Article 2.4 requires that "for intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program."

As a member of the NCAA, Penn State agrees to follow this bylaw, and they failed miserably - in respect, fairness, civility, honesty, and for damned sure, responsibility. The rest of the letter in that link repeatedly mentions unethical behavior, including monitoring the activities of coaches and staff, but importantly, it does NOT narrow this distinction only to recruitment or abuse of funds/property/etc to reward players outside of the allowed scholarship.

The NCAA had to act on this, or it loses any administrative power over the other members. It's too long to type, but make sure you read the last point, Bylaw 19.01.2.

[Landthief 1972]

Looking like Penn State is going to get off with bowl/TV bans and scholarship stuff, which is practically meaningless no matter how 'meaningful' they try to make it sound.

I disagree. There's not a single kid on that team that will ever get to play in a bowl game (barring redshirt). There's going to be an exodus of players leaving, and because of the high amount of schollies taken away, they aren't going to be able to reload. Losing season will begat losing season, and folks, OU is the exception - most schools never bounce back the way we did, and when they do, it takes a decade or more. Penn State is dead for a decade. Mark it down. Ohio State and Michigan are going to have a field day hand-picking the players they want from PSU.

[FaninAma]

Again, the Freeh report contained NO testimony obtained under deposition. In a court of law it would be considered heresay and not admissible in court. Why the rush to judgement by the BoT and the NCAA? What else are they hiding or trying to coverup? What other powerful politician(s) are they trying to protect by sweeping this under the rug?

Depositions need to be taken, charges need to be filed and, IMO, a lot of other powerful people in the state of Pennsylvania need to join Paterno, Spanier, Curley and Schultz under the bus of legal and public condemnation.

[trwxxa]

Again, the Freeh report contained NO testimony obtained under deposition. In a court of law it would be considered heresay and not admissible in court. Why the rush to judgement by the BoT and the NCAA? What else are they hiding or trying to coverup? What other powerful politician(s) are they trying to protect by sweeping this under the rug?

Depositions need to taken, charges need to be filed and, IMO, a lot of other powerful people in the state of Pennsylvania need to join Paterno, Spanier, Curley and Schultz under the bus of legal and public condemnation.

I think Penn St. basically pleaded no contest to the NCAA and accepted the punishment. A calculated risk on both sides, but perhaps PSU is thinking it could only get worse so take this first offer. If it does get worse, then folks will jump on the NCAA for acting too quickly.

Emmert has said he is frustrated with the pace of other ongoing investigations (Miami, Oregon). He obviously felt he had enough evidence to get this done. He will probably enact more sanctions in the future if things were worse than they appear today.

We'll see what else comes out when the civil and criminal proceedings begin. I have no doubt there are plenty of others with knowledge this occurred and did nothing.

[8timechamps]

Again, the Freeh report contained NO testimony obtained under deposition. In a court of law it would be considered heresay and not admissible in court. Why the rush to judgement by the BoT and the NCAA? What else are they hiding or trying to coverup? What other powerful politician(s) are they trying to protect by sweeping this under the rug?

Depositions need to taken, charges need to be filed and, IMO, a lot of other powerful people in the state of Pennsylvania need to join Paterno, Spanier, Curley and Schultz under the bus of legal and public condemnation.

You could be right.

Outside of the NCAA/Freeh issue, I haven't followed any of the legal proceedings, are they done with charging folks?

[King Barry's Back]

Say what you want, but can anyone seriously imagine Bob Stoops, Barry Switzer, Bo Pelini, Mack Brown, Nick Saban, Mike Gundy or, hell, crazy Les Miles actively protecting a pedo?

Several of them (Switzer and Pelini pop to mind) would probably have beaten the azzhole to death with their own hands. And let's not even begin to imagine what Nick Saban would have 'arranged'. It would have been quiet....and final.



Didn't Mike Gundy already recruit/protect a child rapist? I can't remember the details, but it was just a couple of years ago he had to kick a player off the team for being convicted of child rape == although went ahead and recruited, practiced and played the guy with the charges already in place.

Before the conviction, I said that I thought Gundy was making a big mistake because "You do not want your school or team associated with child rape, even if the details can never really be proven."

Gundy got away with his decision, but Penn State has had to pay.

[Landthief 1972]

Again, the Freeh report contained NO testimony obtained under deposition. In a court of law it would be considered heresay and not admissible in court. Why the rush to judgement by the BoT and the NCAA? What else are they hiding or trying to coverup? What other powerful politician(s) are they trying to protect by sweeping this under the rug?


Well, PSU was offered the deal that happened today. They could have waited for the inquiry, reviews, and testimony by the NCAA, which would have taken time, then if the NCAA has given the death penalty, they'd have 90 days to appeal. If Penn State really thought they had a leg to stand on, they wouldn't have caved so quickly, and I don't think they were just trying to head the NCAA off at the pass to avoid the death penalty.

[FaninAma]

If you feel there is more to this story than what the
mainstream media is reporting you should Google "Spanier
and the University of Nebraska". There was a huge pedophilia
ring uncovered in Omaha and it appears Spanier had some
close associates involved in that scandal.

If I were in charge of the investigation I would be taking a
very close look at The Second Mile organization and see
what their involement is in this cesspool.

[85sooners]

Penn st queers