This is just sickening

[diverdog]

Kabul, Afghanistan (CNN) -- A shot rings out, but the burqa-clad woman sitting on the rocky ground does not respond.
The man pointing a rifle at her from a few feet away lets loose another round, but still there is no reaction.
He fires a third shot, and finally the woman slumps backwards.
But the man fires another shot.
And another. And another.
Nine shots in all.
Around him, dozens of men on a hillside cheer: "God is great!"
Officials in Afghanistan, where the amateur video was filmed, believe the woman was executed because two Taliban commanders had a dispute over her, according to the governor of the province where the killing took place.
Both apparently had some kind of relationship with the woman, said Parwan province governor Abdul Basir Salangi.
"In order to save face," they accused her of adultery, Salangi said.
Then they "faked a court to decide about the fate of this woman and in one hour, they executed the woman," he added.
Both Taliban commanders were subsequently killed by a third Taliban commander, Salangi said.
"We went there to investigate and we are still looking for people who were involved in this brutal act," he said.
It is not clear from the video when it was filmed.
The killing took place in the village of Qimchok, not far north of the capital Kabul.
Lawmaker Fawzia Koofi called it a huge backward step for women's issues in Afghanistan.
"I think we will have to do something serious about this, we will have to do something as women, but also as human beings," she said. "She didn't even say one word to defend herself."
Koofi wept on Saturday as she watched the video of the execution.
The United States condemned the killing "in the strongest possible terms," calling it a "cold-blooded murder."
"The protection of women's rights is critical around the world, but especially in Afghanistan, where such rights were ignored, attacked and eroded under Taliban rule," the American embassy said in a statement on Sunday.
The public execution is the latest and among the most shocking examples of violence against women in Afghanistan, but it is far from an isolated case.
Nearly nine out of 10 women suffer physical, sexual, or psychological violence or forced marriage at least once in their lifetimes, Human Rights Watch said in its 2012 annual report.
The country has 14 shelters for abused women, a number which the campaign group says "does not meet even a small fraction of the need."
Hundreds of students and teachers at girls' schools in the country have been hospitalized with suspected poisoning this year alone. Girls were forbidden to go to school when the Taliban ruled the country from 1996 to 2001.
Salangi, the provincial governor, spoke to CNN about the killing on Sunday, the same day that representatives of more than 80 nations and organizations met to consider pouring billions more aid dollars into the country.
U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon urged delegates including U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton not to demand complex reforms in exchange for the money.
"Afghan institutions are still in their nascent stages," he said. "The very programs which offer the best hope of sustainability of Afghan institutions should not be held hostage to complex preconditions."
Clinton said donors at the conference pledged about $16 billion for Afghanistan over four years. That amount did not include money from the United States because any foreign aid must be approved by Congress.
CNN's Richard Allen Greene, Chelsea J. Carter and Sara Sidner, and journalist Ruhullah Khapalwak contributed to this story.

[LiveLaughLove]

Saw this and it definitely sucks. In my opinion, and I know most will disagree, the Taliban represents normal Islam (as the Quran actually reads), not some totally radicalized version. Women are treated as cattle.

I'm not saying most Muslims are like this. I know most people worldwide are not like this. But those devout in Islam I believe, are.

My son that was in the taking of Baghdad said the Shiites never felt a big obligation to be thankful to the Americans for rescuing them from Saddam. It was because they simply saw us as the kafir used by Allah to free them. Their gratitude was to Allah alone, and they owed us no such thanks. So it was easy then to transition in to fighting us to continue the freedom that Allah started by "using" us. The western world just has so little in common with that mentality.

I have no empathy for their culture. I try, but I don't. I feel huge sorrow for the women and children of the Middle East and Muslim society in general, but there isn't much we can or should do, except pray for them.

[Sooner5030]

they follow a religion that wont allow them to eat bacon. that's just f-ing crazy.

[olevetonahill]

they follow a religion that wont allow them to eat bacon. that's just f-ing crazy.

They cant eat bacon , but they wipe they *** with their bare hand :bi_polo:

[sappstuf]

Both Taliban commanders were subsequently killed by a third Taliban commander, Salangi said.

The Afghan circle of life..

[rock on sooner]

Unfortunately, the Taliban just melted away and back into the society
there when we first got there. It is not possible to eliminate the problems
of the culture when the culture does not want it to happen. The solution
is what happened to the two commanders, at every chance. The only
problem with that is all the young boys want to grow up and be like the
old men...prolly aren't enuf bullets to do the job, anyway....

[okie52]

Unfortunately, the Taliban just melted away and back into the society
there when we first got there. It is not possible to eliminate the problems
of the culture when the culture does not want it to happen. The solution
is what happened to the two commanders, at every chance. The only
problem with that is all the young boys want to grow up and be like the
old men...prolly aren't enuf bullets to do the job, anyway....


Nah, the best you can do is make sure there are a whole lot less of them (and probably not have a military presence in the ME).

[rock on sooner]

Nah, the best you can do is make sure there are a whole lot less of them (and probably not have a military presence in the ME).

It is truly a tribal society throughout the country, so here's an idea...
identify all the tribal leaders and let the "drone air force" do to them
that is currently happening to Al Queda around the world..do it in
a very narrow time frame so they can't go to ground. Before you
know it, all the old farts are dead and there's no one to teach the
young ones and common sense would prevail!

[soonercruiser]

Barbarians!

(But, let's negotiate with them Afghanistan!)

[okie52]

It is truly a tribal society throughout the country, so here's an idea...
identify all the tribal leaders and let the "drone air force" do to them
that is currently happening to Al Queda around the world..do it in
a very narrow time frame so they can't go to ground. Before you
know it, all the old farts are dead and there's no one to teach the
young ones and common sense would prevail!

Well if we can do that...sure although I'm not sure common sense is ever going to prevail.

[soonercruiser]

Drones are going to be too busy watching the Tea Party in the U.S.!
(Obama's enemies...)

[olevetonahill]

Way I see it, Thats just 3 less of them POS's to breed

[rock on sooner]

Drones are going to be too busy watching the Tea Party in the U.S.!
(Obama's enemies...)

Don't need drones to watch the Tea Partiers...just ears for
listening 'cause they'll makin' lotsa noise...

[marfacowboy]

They're misogynist and cruel. I really have zero tolerance for their ilk.
But there's always been hatred against women, even in this country. Today, hundreds of women have been brutalized and executed along the U.S. Mexican border (some beheaded) simply because they're women. There's literally a massacre going on that isn't related in any way to the drug wars.
Catholics are still amongst the most misogynist groups on the planet. And frankly, so are evangelical Christians. Lest we forget, for nearly 150 years the United States basically categorized women with slaves, non-white males, illegals, felons and mentally incompetent people insofar as voting was concerned.

[olevetonahill]

Bitch Please. Get back in the kitchen where ya belong.

[okie52]

They're misogynist and cruel. I really have zero tolerance for their ilk.
But there's always been hatred against women, even in this country. Today, hundreds of women have been brutalized and executed along the U.S. Mexican border (some beheaded) simply because they're women. There's literally a massacre going on that isn't related in any way to the drug wars.
Catholics are still amongst the most misogynist groups on the planet. And frankly, so are evangelical Christians. Lest we forget, for nearly 150 years the United States basically categorized women with slaves, Indians, illegals, felons and mentally deficient people insofar as voting was concerned.

How was the rest of the world categorizing women for those 150 years?

[olevetonahill]

How was the rest of the world categorizing women for those 150 years?
Heh, He/She says that like its a bad thing.

[okie52]

Heh, He/She says that like its a bad thing.

Heh heh. If women weren't voting there wouldn't have been an Obama presidency.

[Sooner5030]

we've always allowed our women to serve us bacon though.

[LiveLaughLove]

They're misogynist and cruel. I really have zero tolerance for their ilk.
But there's always been hatred against women, even in this country. Today, hundreds of women have been brutalized and executed along the U.S. Mexican border (some beheaded) simply because they're women. There's literally a massacre going on that isn't related in any way to the drug wars.
Catholics are still amongst the most misogynist groups on the planet. And frankly, so are evangelical Christians. Lest we forget, for nearly 150 years the United States basically categorized women with slaves, non-white males, illegals, felons and mentally incompetent people insofar as voting was concerned.

Always always with the moral equivalency. Except for the detail that you have present day vs over a century ago, and you manage to blow even that out of proportion. There is zero moral equivalency. Zero.

If we had better border security the killing there would end, but liberals won't allow it. So by your reasoning, liberalism kills women and is among the most anti-women groups the world has ever seen.

Catholics are only among the most misogynistic, if you are only including Catholics. Nuns have been running huge convents for centuries. They are treated with great respect. Sister Teresa is a freaking icon. Oh you mean because they are against abortion. Right.

Oh if only the world had always been as enlightened as you are.

[IBleedCrimson]

Just remember...

Theres no such thing as better or worse, only DIFFERENT. We can't judge.

[marfacowboy]

Always always with the moral equivalency. Except for the detail that you have present day vs over a century ago, and you manage to blow even that out of proportion. There is zero moral equivalency. Zero.

I never said there was moral equivalency. I'm making a historically accurate point about how women have been and continue to be treated.


If we had better border security the killing there would end, but liberals won't allow it. So by your reasoning, liberalism kills women and is among the most anti-women groups the world has ever seen.

The killing is occurring in Mexico, so no, border security won't change anything. It is irrelevant. May I suggest Violence and Activism at the Border by Kathleen Staudt? It might help you to study the subject a bit before commenting on it.


Catholics are only among the most misogynistic, if you are only including Catholics. Nuns have been running huge convents for centuries. They are treated with great respect. Sister Teresa is a freaking icon. Oh you mean because they are against abortion. Right.

Are you Catholic? I was Catholic. Baptized, confirmed, religious education. Something tells me you're not qualified to debate this subject, either. Nuns don't run convents or own them. They're run and owned by the Church andthere are NO WOMEN whatsoever in the official hierarchy of the Church. They all ultimately answer to men. Just the fact there's not a single woman in the priesthood says everything.

[marfacowboy]

Just remember...

Theres no such thing as better or worse, only DIFFERENT. We can't judge.

No, I think you have to judge and stand up against misogyny every time you see it. It's easy to cloak intolerance and abuse beneath "religious tolerance."

[olevetonahill]

No, I think you have to judge and stand up against misogyny every time you see it. It's easy to cloak intolerance and abuse beneath "religious tolerance."
Like I said shut up Bitch and fix me a sammich, then get to cleanin.

[okie52]

No, I think you have to judge and stand up against misogyny every time you see it. It's easy to cloak intolerance and abuse beneath "religious tolerance."

So you have a problem with the way Catholics run their church....then don't be a member. I am not aware of any church being able to force anyone to join.

Unless, of course, you believe in forcing your will on others.

[LiveLaughLove]

I never said there was moral equivalency. I'm making a historically accurate point about how women have been and continue to be treated.



The killing is occurring in Mexico, so no, border security won't change anything. It is irrelevant. May I suggest Violence and Activism at the Border by Kathleen Staudt? It might help you to study the subject a bit before commenting on it.



Are you Catholic? I was Catholic. Baptized, confirmed, religious education. Something tells me you're not qualified to debate this subject, either. Nuns don't run convents or own them. They're run and owned by the Church andthere are NO WOMEN whatsoever in the official hierarchy of the Church. They all ultimately answer to men. Just the fact there's not a single woman in the priesthood says everything.

Sure you did. No other reason to mention the others. You're "historically accurate" point had no other meaning. And you aren't particularly historic or accurate anyway.

If our border were tighter, there wouldn't be as large a confluence of criminals along it. Take away their opportunities, they leave. I appreciate the suggested reading, but I am not that interested really. Thanks anyway.

I am not Catholic. I am qualified to debate it, since I have a voice and a brain. Nuns are not mistreated. They are highly respected. Mother Superiors are women of high stature. There are a bus load of liberal nuns going across America right now campaigning basically for Obama. No one in the Church has punished them, berated them, or done anything to them at all. It may be a fact that there are no women priests, but that is from an interpretation of scripture, not from misogyny. If you have a problem with it, tell God, he wrote it. (I do not necessarily agree or disagree with that interpretation, but I respect their right as a church to interpret it that way)

In fact, in recent times, the nuns that have been killed have been killed by leftist guerrillas, and Islamist's not the Church.

[LiveLaughLove]

So you have a problem with the way Catholics run their church....then don't be a member. I am not aware of any church being able to force anyone to join.

Unless, of course, you believe in forcing your will on others.

Exactly what liberals want to do. They join organizations for the express purpose of trying to change it.

We just don't join ones that we don't agree with.

They join and then **** and moan about it. And eventually go to court or threaten it, if the organization doesn't change.

[marfacowboy]

Like I said shut up Bitch and fix me a sammich, then get to cleanin.

Oh, I love it when my bear daddy talks dirty to me! What are you wearing?

[olevetonahill]

Oh, I love it when my bear daddy talks dirty to me! What are you wearing?

Im neked sweet cheeks
Now the only time I want yer mouth open is if yer gonna suck.

[okie52]

Exactly what liberals want to do. They join organizations for the express purpose of trying to change it.

We just don't join ones that we don't agree with.

They join and then **** and moan about it. And eventually go to court or threaten it, if the organization doesn't change.

Although I don't mind someone joining if they think they can change it, I certainly wonder why they would bother since these are voluntary organizations.

Well, there is that other religion known as the cause or PC. Maybe that's the "tolerance" that trumps all others.

[pphilfran]

So you have a problem with the way Catholics run their church....then don't be a member. I am not aware of any church being able to force anyone to join.

Unless, of course, you believe in forcing your will on others.

The Church is on par with Augusta National...

[pphilfran]

Sure you did. No other reason to mention the others. You're "historically accurate" point had no other meaning. And you aren't particularly historic or accurate anyway.

If our border were tighter, there wouldn't be as large a confluence of criminals along it. Take away their opportunities, they leave. I appreciate the suggested reading, but I am not that interested really. Thanks anyway.

I am not Catholic. I am qualified to debate it, since I have a voice and a brain. Nuns are not mistreated. They are highly respected. Mother Superiors are women of high stature. There are a bus load of liberal nuns going across America right now campaigning basically for Obama. No one in the Church has punished them, berated them, or done anything to them at all. It may be a fact that there are no women priests, but that is from an interpretation of scripture, not from misogyny. If you have a problem with it, tell God, he wrote it. (I do not necessarily agree or disagree with that interpretation, but I respect their right as a church to interpret it that way)

In fact, in recent times, the nuns that have been killed have been killed by leftist guerrillas, and Islamist's not the Church.

I was Catholic...even an alter boy....Catholic school through 8th grade...

[marfacowboy]

Sure you did. No other reason to mention the others. You're "historically accurate" point had no other meaning. And you aren't particularly historic or accurate anyway.

What's not accurate?
Please don't tell me what I meant in my own posts.


If our border were tighter, there wouldn't be as large a confluence of criminals along it. Take away their opportunities, they leave. I appreciate the suggested reading, but I am not that interested really. Thanks anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. There's no evidence to suggest that a stronger border presence by the U.S. is going to change things in Ciudad Juárez. In 2010, El Paso had five homicides. Ciudad Juárez had 3000. El Paso seems pretty safe in comparison.


I am not Catholic. I am qualified to debate it, since I have a voice and a brain.

I suppose you're therefore qualified to intelligently debate the finer points of quantum physics, as well.


Nuns are not mistreated. They are highly respected.

Who said they weren't respected? Who said they were mistreated? I only stated the facts which is they have no power or place in the official church hierarchy.


It may be a fact that there are no women priests, but that is from an interpretation of scripture, not from misogyny. If you have a problem with it, tell God, he wrote it. (I do not necessarily agree or disagree with that interpretation, but I respect their right as a church to interpret it that way)

There's no "may" about it. There are none in the Catholic Church. So you're now prepared to debate the finer points of Catholic dogma? One thing I've learned about Christians, is they always have some clever way of pointing to scriptural interpretations, church law and all sorts of other mumbo jumbo to justify their actions.
But you don't respect the Muslims right to their own interpretation, right?

[marfacowboy]

So you have a problem with the way Catholics run their church....then don't be a member. I am not aware of any church being able to force anyone to join.

Unless, of course, you believe in forcing your will on others.

I left the church ten years ago as did my wife.

[marfacowboy]

Im neked sweet cheeks
Now the only time I want yer mouth open is if yer gonna suck.

You probably are naked, and you probably sit around and surf gay porn. Did you play at Penn State with the Tickle Monster?

[marfacowboy]

Exactly what liberals want to do. They join organizations for the express purpose of trying to change it.

We just don't join ones that we don't agree with.

They join and then **** and moan about it. And eventually go to court or threaten it, if the organization doesn't change.

Name one person you know that did this.

[okie52]

The Church is on par with Augusta National...

Maybe that's why Nuns always seem mad as hell.

I like it....men still need a sanctuary.

[olevetonahill]

You probably are naked, and you probably sit around and surf gay porn. Did you play at Penn State with the Tickle Monster?

Aint no Prolly to it there Sweet cheeks
Now quit fantasizing about me and get back to werk.

[cleller]

So you have a problem with the way Catholics run their church....then don't be a member. I am not aware of any church being able to force anyone to join.

Unless, of course, you believe in forcing your will on others.

Are you talking about Obamacare? Does that qualify as a religious institution?

The NEA convention seems to deify it.

[Sooner_Tuf]

Name one person you know that did this.

Shannon Faulkner


But really why do you want to look down on the muslims when our leader is one? :gary:

[marfacowboy]

Shannon Faulkner


But really why do you want to look down on the muslims when our leader is one?

It's always shocking to me to come across people completely incapable of ruling themselves.

[olevetonahill]

It's always shocking to me to come across people completely incapable of ruling themselves.
Care to explain that?

Aint the Libs the ones trying to shove MORE government down us? While most of us Conservatives just want to be left the **** alone?

Why dont YOU go rule those dumber than you? Oh wait there arnt any

[rock on sooner]

How the hell did this thread turn into this crap? It ought to
be about figuring out how to turn Afghanistan into a sheet
of glass, right after all the women and kids are evacuated!
All within UN guidelines, of course..cut off Karzai from the
money...it would cut the world's herione supply by prolly 90%
and the world would be a better place for it all...

[soonercruiser]

They're misogynist and cruel. I really have zero tolerance for their ilk.
But there's always been hatred against women, even in this country. Today, hundreds of women have been brutalized and executed along the U.S. Mexican border (some beheaded) simply because they're women. There's literally a massacre going on that isn't related in any way to the drug wars.
Catholics are still amongst the most misogynist groups on the planet. And frankly, so are evangelical Christians. Lest we forget, for nearly 150 years the United States basically categorized women with slaves, non-white males, illegals, felons and mentally incompetent people insofar as voting was concerned.

What kind of hateful, anti-Christian, psychotic post was this???
Please seek professional help, fast!!!!
:bi_polo:

[soonercruiser]

Always always with the moral equivalency. Except for the detail that you have present day vs over a century ago, and you manage to blow even that out of proportion. There is zero moral equivalency. Zero.

If we had better border security the killing there would end, but liberals won't allow it. So by your reasoning, liberalism kills women and is among the most anti-women groups the world has ever seen.

Catholics are only among the most misogynistic, if you are only including Catholics. Nuns have been running huge convents for centuries. They are treated with great respect. Sister Teresa is a freaking icon. Oh you mean because they are against abortion. Right.

Oh if only the world had always been as enlightened as you are.

If it's a hate the pro-lifers thing with Cowbogirl...that is a most hateful thing against women!
But, it's the progressive women libbers and abortionist (and manipulative men) that are causing the real damage.
Contraception, abortion and the like have greatly increased the cancer rate among women; and exploded the need for treatment of post traumatic psychological disorders.

So yes, it is hateful and manipluilative of the progressive libbers to do this to women!

[soonercruiser]

duplicate

[soonercruiser]

I never said there was moral equivalency. I'm making a historically accurate point about how women have been and continue to be treated.

Are you Catholic? I was Catholic. Baptized, confirmed, religious education. Something tells me you're not qualified to debate this subject, either. Nuns don't run convents or own them. They're run and owned by the Church andthere are NO WOMEN whatsoever in the official hierarchy of the Church. They all ultimately answer to men. Just the fact there's not a single woman in the priesthood says everything.


Ah ha! Now we see clearly what the problem is!!!
Marfa, Were you a nun and thought that after Vatican II that you'd be able to either marry or become a priest?
Have you had any abortions? Are you divorced?

I am a Catholic by birth, and reborn.
There are many very angry liberal women in the Church.
Most have a real problem with rules and authority....like real men Priests and Bishops telling them what the Catholic Church's real teachings are. There is always someone to tell us what to do!
"OBEDIENCE!
One of the teachings is charity also , so I will end these points here.

But - You are not a well-versed Catholic also!
You are wrong! Nuns and Religious Orders do administratively run their convents.
Most only answer directly to the up-chain superiors of the "Order", or the Bishop of their Diocese.
The religious (not in traditional "habit") had run Mercy Hospital here in OKCity for many years.
Although it is still their responsibility, there is a governing Board made up of Lay persons who help them administrate this medical monster.

And, BTW, Nanci Peeloski and Kathy Sebelius say that they are Catholic women too.
Ted ("on-the-table-dear") Kennedy and Joe Biden are Catholics too.
fiffy!

[okie52]

I left the church ten years ago as did my wife.

Thank God you got out before it was too late.

[okie52]

How the hell did this thread turn into this crap? It ought to
be about figuring out how to turn Afghanistan into a sheet
of glass, right after all the women and kids are evacuated!
All within UN guidelines, of course..cut off Karzai from the
money...it would cut the world's herione supply by prolly 90%
and the world would be a better place for it all...

You don't have enough hate, Rock on.

Some would think we need to be glassing over the USA.

[IBleedCrimson]

How the hell did this thread turn into this crap? It ought to
be about figuring out how to turn Afghanistan into a sheet
of glass, right after all the women and kids are evacuated!
All within UN guidelines, of course..cut off Karzai from the
money...it would cut the world's herione supply by prolly 90%
and the world wou ld be a better place for it all...

I was all in until this part. I need my stuff.

[Curly Bill]

Way I see it, Thats just 3 less of them POS's to breed

Damn it! I was gonna read through the rest of the thread and then post this very thing! You stole my thunder you thieving bastage!

[yermom]

Saw this and it definitely sucks. In my opinion, and I know most will disagree, the Taliban represents normal Islam (as the Quran actually reads), not some totally radicalized version. Women are treated as cattle.

I'm not saying most Muslims are like this. I know most people worldwide are not like this. But those devout in Islam I believe, are.

My son that was in the taking of Baghdad said the Shiites never felt a big obligation to be thankful to the Americans for rescuing them from Saddam. It was because they simply saw us as the kafir used by Allah to free them. Their gratitude was to Allah alone, and they owed us no such thanks. So it was easy then to transition in to fighting us to continue the freedom that Allah started by "using" us. The western world just has so little in common with that mentality.

I have no empathy for their culture. I try, but I don't. I feel huge sorrow for the women and children of the Middle East and Muslim society in general, but there isn't much we can or should do, except pray for them.

you probably shouldn't throw stones here. literally.

i've read your holy books "as they actually read" ;)

[olevetonahill]

you probably shouldn't throw stones here. literally.

i've read your holy books "as they actually read" ;)
Bro I dont really know much about Muslims But from what Little I do know they believe totally different from Christians

[rock on sooner]

You don't have enough hate, Rock on.

Some would think we need to be glassing over the USA.

Yeah, Okie, but they're the ones in the drones' crosshairs...

[marfacowboy]

What kind of hateful, anti-Christian, psychotic post was this???
Please seek professional help, fast!!!!
:bi_polo:

Just the uncomfortable truth, cruiser. Sorry to break it to you.
I grew up in a conservative Christian household and heard it all. Wives be submissive to your husbands. Only men could be elders in the Baptist Church. How men are the "heads of the household." It always leads to the same place. I probably do need professional help for being subjected to a cult-like system.

[marfacowboy]

Ah ha! Now we see clearly what the problem is!!!

But - You are not a well-versed Catholic also!
You are wrong! Nuns and Religious Orders do administratively run their convents.
Most only answer directly to the up-chain superiors of the "Order", or the Bishop of their Diocese.
The religious (not in traditional "habit") had run Mercy Hospital here in OKCity for many years.
Although it is still their responsibility, there is a governing Board made up of Lay persons who help them administrate this medical monster.

So what? They run the administrative affairs of their facility? They have no power. Period. No official standing in church hierarchy. That's like saying the head maid runs the staff at Downton Abbey.
And let's not even get started on how the church hierarchy has been part of a criminal coverup of systemic, widespread sexual abuse, or god forbid we open the lid on their long history of other abuses. It's a corrupt, outdated institution out of touch with reality.
90% of its membership is out of fellowship insofar as their "official positions" are concerned, since most families practice some sort of birth control. They're a bunch of nuts.

[yermom]

Bro I dont really know much about Muslims But from what Little I do know they believe totally different from Christians

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-21.htm


Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

bullets aren't much different than stones...

[olevetonahill]

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-21.htm



bullets aren't much different than stones...

See Bro thats what I mean, Thats the Old testament that Jesus came to fulfill. No Christian on earth that follows Jesus bekeives thats required of them today.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Catholics are still amongst the most misogynist groups on the planet.

I don't know what the **** you are talking about and neither do you.

[olevetonahill]

Just the uncomfortable truth, cruiser. Sorry to break it to you.
I grew up in a conservative Christian household and heard it all. Wives be submissive to your husbands. Only men could be elders in the Baptist Church. How men are the "heads of the household." It always leads to the same place. I probably do need professional help for being subjected to a cult-like system.

So yer sayin ya Got married and P-Whipped and now do what yer wife says huh?

[okie52]

Yeah, Okie, but they're the ones in the drones' crosshairs...

Let us hope so.

[C&CDean]

Anyone comparing the treatment of women in the USA with the treatment of women in ****hole muslim countries isn't intelligent enough to even have a voice in this conversation.

Here's my take on this whole deal: Men are stronger than women. Men have been in power since the beginning of time. Same goes in the animal world (unless you're a black widow spider or maybe a praying mantis). It's God's plan. If you can't see how ****ed up this country has gotten since women have been given massive amounts of power then you're blind or fooling yourself.

I'm very blessed to have a wife that believes this as well. She gets her greatest pleasure by serving her husband and kids. She wants me to run the household and make the daily decisions. Yes, I include her on the important ones, and often ask her opinion on the minor ones as well. She cooks what I like to eat. She is always ready to please her husband. As it should be. In return, I put her on a pedestal and respect her more than any other person in the world. I give her my money, time, and love. As it should be.

Many times we've compared our relationship to that of a ship's captain and his first mate. I make the decisions, and she carries them out. If I'm not there, she steps up into my role.

Now for these POS muslim **********s? F em. In the A. With a giant camel dick.

[olevetonahill]

Heh

[yermom]

See Bro thats what I mean, Thats the Old testament that Jesus came to fulfill. No Christian on earth that follows Jesus bekeives thats required of them today.

so it's out of context and doesn't apply anymore?

IT'S IN THEIR BOOK! THAT'S WHAT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE!

applying what the Taliban believe and practice to all Muslims is just ignorant. that's all i'm saying.

[yermom]

Anyone comparing the treatment of women in the USA with the treatment of women in ****hole muslim countries isn't intelligent enough to even have a voice in this conversation.

Here's my take on this whole deal: Men are stronger than women. Men have been in power since the beginning of time. Same goes in the animal world (unless you're a black widow spider or maybe a praying mantis). It's God's plan. If you can't see how ****ed up this country has gotten since women have been given massive amounts of power then you're blind or fooling yourself.

I'm very blessed to have a wife that believes this as well. She gets her greatest pleasure by serving her husband and kids. She wants me to run the household and make the daily decisions. Yes, I include her on the important ones, and often ask her opinion on the minor ones as well. She cooks what I like to eat. She is always ready to please her husband. As it should be. In return, I put her on a pedestal and respect her more than any other person in the world. I give her my money, time, and love. As it should be.

Many times we've compared our relationship to that of a ship's captain and his first mate. I make the decisions, and she carries them out. If I'm not there, she steps up into my role.

Now for these POS muslim **********s? F em. In the A. With a giant camel dick.

Patriarchal societies are hardly universal throughout history. not even on this continent.

on one hand, i believe in equal rights, on the other, bitches be trippin'

so yeah, i have some mixed feelings on the subject

[C&CDean]

so it's out of context and doesn't apply anymore?

IT'S IN THEIR BOOK! THAT'S WHAT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE!

applying what the Taliban believe and practice to all Muslims is just ignorant. that's all i'm saying.

Work with me here Dave. Would you agree that it's much more likely that all the groovy muslims you know might go all Taliban than the awful christians you know going all crusades?

[C&CDean]

Patriarchal societies are hardly universal throughout history. not even on this continent.

Wha? Really? Unless you were raised by Amazon women maybe. Every culture I know of has men running the show.

[olevetonahill]

so it's out of context and doesn't apply anymore?

IT'S IN THEIR BOOK! THAT'S WHAT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE!

applying what the Taliban believe and practice to all Muslims is just ignorant. that's all i'm saying.

Come on Bro
Im not gonna argue religion with you, I've freely admitted that I dont know jack **** about their religion
There are 3 distinct sects of Muslims and they Believe vastly different versions of the Koran.

[yermom]

probably more than that. fundamentalists are dangerous, in just about any religion.

but that isn't the statement that was made here:


Saw this and it definitely sucks. In my opinion, and I know most will disagree, the Taliban represents normal Islam (as the Quran actually reads), not some totally radicalized version. Women are treated as cattle.

[TitoMorelli]

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-21.htm

bullets aren't much different than stones...


So I guess your being the most continuously stoned member of this board gives you cred on the subject?:watermelon:

[olevetonahill]

probably more than that. fundamentalists are dangerous, in just about any religion.

but that isn't the statement that was made here:
So da wimmens can Drive a Car? Vote? walk around in a swimsuit in most Muslim countries?

[olevetonahill]

So I guess your being the most continuously stoned member of this board gives you cred on the subject?:watermelon:
Dave, You been Bogarten again . Ya sorry bastage

[C&CDean]

Well, in all honesty, if my woman looked like the average muslim I wouldn't want to see her in a swim suit either.

[olevetonahill]

Well, in all honesty, if my woman looked like the average muslim I wouldn't want to see her in a swim suit either.

Hell I aint got a clue what they look like they all got rags covering em from head to toe.

[marfacowboy]

I don't know what the **** you are talking about and neither do you.

Predictable and sad. But that's what a lot of people do when confronted with things they don't understand or don't like. Instead of trying to understand it, they lash out it.

[marfacowboy]

So yer sayin ya Got married and P-Whipped and now do what yer wife says huh?

I hope to heaven you haven't reproduced.

[olevetonahill]

I hope to heaven you haven't reproduced.
Hell yea I have, My Boys been Bangin yer girls

[KantoSooner]

I used to try and defend Muslims, and people serious about their religion in general. "Live and let live' kind of approach. The more I've seen, however, the more I've come to appreciate that:

1. People who are truly serious about their religion will, sooner or later, act on both what is in their holy books (both the friendlier parts and the terrifyingly psychotic parts) and in furtherance of the bureaucratic interests of their churches.

2. That being the case, if we are going to have a society that is accepting of peoples of different faiths or no faith, we have to have a legal code that is both above all religions and is based on a 'lowest common denominator' approach to what is im/permissable.

To the extent that any nation is religious by definition, it will inescapably become a horror show. Pakistan vs. India is an excellent example. Same people ethnically. In fact, Pakistan was probably 'richer' at partition. India has, however, tried to have a more or less secular society whereas Pakistan is an 'Islamic' republic. The former is now something of an economic success story while the latter is fast challenging the notion of just how ****ed up a country can be and still be called a country.

That this execution/murder horror took place in Afghanistan, a muslim country, should surprise no one. It was a most logical act as seen through the prism of a late neo-lithic patriarchal herder's cult. And could have easily been carried out by the unrestrained officers of any other religion. (note that Navajo children were hung by their thumbs into the early 1920's by catholic and protestant school officials attempting to encourage 'true' conversion). Strange what can be justified when one is doing 'god's work'.

[C&CDean]

I used to try and defend Muslims, and people serious about their religion in general. "Live and let live' kind of approach. The more I've seen, however, the more I've come to appreciate that:

1. People who are truly serious about their religion will, sooner or later, act on both what is in their holy books (both the friendlier parts and the terrifyingly psychotic parts) and in furtherance of the bureaucratic interests of their churches.

2. That being the case, if we are going to have a society that is accepting of peoples of different faiths or no faith, we have to have a legal code that is both above all religions and is based on a 'lowest common denominator' approach to what is im/permissable.

To the extent that any nation is religious by definition, it will inescapably become a horror show. Pakistan vs. India is an excellent example. Same people ethnically. In fact, Pakistan was probably 'richer' at partition. India has, however, tried to have a more or less secular society whereas Pakistan is an 'Islamic' republic. The former is now something of an economic success story while the latter is fast challenging the notion of just how ****ed up a country can be and still be called a country.

That this execution/murder horror took place in Afghanistan, a muslim country, should surprise no one. It was a most logical act as seen through the prism of a late neo-lithic patriarchal herder's cult. And could have easily been carried out by the unrestrained officers of any other religion. (note that Navajo children were hung by their thumbs into the early 1920's by catholic and protestant school officials attempting to encourage 'true' conversion). Strange what can be justified when one is doing 'god's work'.

Boy, you shore got a purdy mouf...

Well said.

[diverdog]

Well, in all honesty, if my woman looked like the average muslim I wouldn't want to see her in a swim suit either.

Dean it depends on the country. For instance, Jordan has some beautiful women. Iran also has some very good looking women. Where you run into problems are the woman who are subjected to the harsh realities of poverty. Most of them are just beaten up by life.

[C&CDean]

Dean it depends on the country. For instance, Jordan has some beautiful women. Iran also has some very good looking women. Where you run into problems are the woman who are subjected to the harsh realities of poverty. Most of them are just beaten up by life.

I ain't much on the dark girls with hairy backs. Actually, I have worked over the years with several arab? girls. Most have more facial/arm hair than me. Black eyes too. Just doesn't do it for me. And none of them have been beat up that I know of (although they are married to muslim men so who knows).

[Sooner_Tuf]

There are tons of beautiful women in the middle east :/ Not all of course but nowhere on earth are all the people beautiful.

Stereotypes are ignorant for a reason.

If you'll stop and think about it, extremists frequently are not born out of beliefs but out of their situations. The Taliban is the result of a group struggling for power in one of the most impoverished areas of the world. Since there is no real wealth to control they attempt to control people by blaming others for their problems. Those that don't buy into the belief are enemies and are attacked unmercifully.

Very seldom is any group as extreme as it's leadership. It's true there as it is here in the United States.

[C&CDean]

Stereotypes are based in fact. How is that "ignorant?"

Of course if you believe "EVERYBODY OF XX RACE/RELIGION IS A DOOSH" then yeah, but all stereotypes have come about due to a large/disproportionate number of group X displaying behavior Y. The Irish like to drink. Mexicans carry knives and drive lowriders. Skinny little white punks like rap music.

I could go on and on.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Predictable and sad. But that's what a lot of people do when confronted with things they don't understand or don't like. Instead of trying to understand it, they lash out it.

Predictable and sad that you've never been near a Catholic Church but you make up some **** in your mind about it based on the information that you choose to accept to fit your philosophy and brand 1 billion people as a certain way. You should take the time to know about something before you go spouting about it.

Don't get your panties in a wad when you get called out on your ignorance.

[yermom]

So I guess your being the most continuously stoned member of this board gives you cred on the subject?:watermelon:

you have me confused with someone else, i'm afraid.

and what cred do i need? it's in black and white in that link.

[yermom]

Wha? Really? Unless you were raised by Amazon women maybe. Every culture I know of has men running the show.

http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/html/iroquoiswoman.htm

that's the example i was thinking of, but it may have been a little more overblown as matriarchal from the explanations in school, apparently ;)

[C&CDean]

http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/html/iroquoiswoman.htm

that's the example i was thinking of, but it may have been a little more overblown as matriarchal from the explanations in school, apparently ;)

I got 6 graduate hours from Portland State University. Heh.

[TUSooner]

Saw this and it definitely sucks. In my opinion, and I know most will disagree, the Taliban represents normal Islam (as the Quran actually reads), not some totally radicalized version. Women are treated as cattle.

I'm not saying most Muslims are like this. I know most people worldwide are not like this. But those devout in Islam I believe, are.

My son that was in the taking of Baghdad said the Shiites never felt a big obligation to be thankful to the Americans for rescuing them from Saddam. It was because they simply saw us as the kafir used by Allah to free them. Their gratitude was to Allah alone, and they owed us no such thanks. So it was easy then to transition in to fighting us to continue the freedom that Allah started by "using" us. The western world just has so little in common with that mentality.

I have no empathy for their culture. I try, but I don't. I feel huge sorrow for the women and children of the Middle East and Muslim society in general, but there isn't much we can or should do, except pray for them.
That's pretty much like saying that all the "real" Christians believe in the a strictly literal interpretation of the Bible, including a six-day creation about 6000 years ago, no sort evolution, and other "fundamentalist" or kooky stuff. You may fairly and sincerely have no trouble with that proposition, but I think it discredits the Gospel in the eyes of many decent & reasonable people.

The "no bacon" thing...well, that's truly perverse.

All that aside, the advancement of women's rights & "liberation" seems to go hand in hand with the advancement of liberal (in the old good sense), tolerant, and enlightened societies.

[yermom]

Jews don't eat bacon either, you anti-semites.

[marfacowboy]

Predictable and sad that you've never been near a Catholic Church but you make up some **** in your mind about it based on the information that you choose to accept to fit your philosophy and brand 1 billion people as a certain way. You should take the time to know about something before you go spouting about it.

Don't get your panties in a wad when you get called out on your ignorance.

You don't know what you're talking about. How do you know if I've been to a Catholic church or not? What an absurd and phenomenally stupid thing to say.
I went through RCIA as an adult and studied Catholicism at length before I was baptized and confirmed in the Church. I knew more about Catholicism than a lot of people who went through Catholic schools. I wasn't raised Catholic, but I married a Catholic and gave it a fair shot.
No one here has "called me out on my ignorance," because no one has successfully refuted anything I've said on this subject.

[okie52]

Jews don't eat bacon either, you anti-semites.

Yeah but they love pork.

[KantoSooner]

I've always found it amusing that, in general, tribes refrain from eating the animal that is their totem.
Thus Jews and Muslims would have been, in antiquity, members of a pig cult. Or, in more modern terms, Arkansawyers.

[C&CDean]

Jews don't eat pork like Baptists don't drink.

[Sooner_Tuf]

Stereotypes are based in fact. How is that "ignorant?"



Stereotypes are not based in fact :/ They are the result of people being too lazy to process information when they meet new people and are generally used to make one feel superior to another group. That is being ignorant of reality.

All in the Family's Archie Bunker was hilarious but was not intended to be a role model.

[soonercruiser]

So what? They run the administrative affairs of their facility? They have no power. Period. No official standing in church hierarchy. That's like saying the head maid runs the staff at Downton Abbey.
And let's not even get started on how the church hierarchy has been part of a criminal coverup of systemic, widespread sexual abuse, or god forbid we open the lid on their long history of other abuses. It's a corrupt, outdated institution out of touch with reality.
90% of its membership is out of fellowship insofar as their "official positions" are concerned, since most families practice some sort of birth control. They're a bunch of nuts.

Sorry to respond with facts marfa, but I am up against a woman administrator of a 501 (c) (3) health organization who is trying to control everything that I do in my area of being "Director". Having a meeting this afternoon to get formal "permission" to use my own resources to solve a my own problem.

As for abortion, contraception, and Catholic Church teaching....as I said, there is always someone in charge above you. Lot's of women and moderates don't like that. Thank GOD that someone, the Church, has some solid moral principles to guide it. And a clear chain of command!
Again, it's the "Obedience" thing. If you don't live by solid moral principles; you pay the price!
Our civilization, country, AND THE CHURCH HAVE SUFFERED BECAUSE OF THIS!

** The disobedience and moderation that you and the Left aspouse are the very cause of the problems (even in the Catholic Church) that you attack!
Can't you see that?

The progressive, "me", disobedient, and self-indulgent sinners in the Church are the cause of the pedophilia scandal.
And, before you resort to that Alinskyian standard attack on the Church, please start by attacking those groups that are offenders in much higher percentage....like TEACHERS!

*** But, you will never, NEVER SEE me defend evn the bad behavior of those in power in the Church! But, I live with the faith that in the end, ther will be judgment for them!
And I live with the realization that no organization made up of sinners is perfect!

What ever demonination you belong to now, I hope you appreciate your ability to influence who your pastor is, so that you can pick and choose whose morality you allign with.
To me, that is no moral challenge!
(Me, a big time sinner too!)

[SoonerAtKU]

Jews don't eat pork like Baptists don't drink.

What's the old joke? How do you stop a Baptist from drinking all of your beer? Invite two.

[okie52]

What's the old joke? How do you stop a Baptist from drinking all of your beer? Invite two.

HAHA.

[C&CDean]

Stereotypes are not based in fact :/ They are the result of people being too lazy to process information when they meet new people and are generally used to make one feel superior to another group. That is being ignorant of reality.

All in the Family's Archie Bunker was hilarious but was not intended to be a role model.

Spare me. Not processing meeting new people? WTF? If there wasn't something there, then why the hell would people come up with stereotypes? Sheez. It ain't rocket surgery.

[marfacowboy]

** The disobedience and moderation that you and the Left aspouse are the very cause of the problems (even in the Catholic Church) that you attack!
Can't you see that?

The progressive, "me", disobedient, and self-indulgent sinners in the Church are the cause of the pedophilia scandal.
And, before you resort to that Alinskyian standard attack on the Church, please start by attacking those groups that are offenders in much higher percentage....like TEACHERS!

*** But, you will never, NEVER SEE me defend evn the bad behavior of those in power in the Church! But, I live with the faith that in the end, ther will be judgment for them!
And I live with the realization that no organization made up of sinners is perfect!

What ever demonination you belong to now, I hope you appreciate your ability to influence who your pastor is, so that you can pick and choose whose morality you allign with.
To me, that is no moral challenge!
(Me, a big time sinner too!)

Well, this is an astounding post. It's liberals, leftists and conformists that are the cause of the sexual problems within the Church. My oh my.
I was very disappointed that things didn't work out for me as a Catholic. I thought I'd at last found a home. I fled from the fundamentalism of my parents like someone screamed "fire!" in a crowded theater. I thought I'd finally found a group that accepted all people, regardless of station, background, etc. and an organization that had an appreciation for ritual and tradition. I always loved those old buildings. Everything seemed so well matched, until Ibecame more deeply involved, of course. The more questions my wife and I asked, the more troubling it all became.
Finally, I came to the intellectual conclusion that I'd tried to avoid during my college years, and tossed the whole thing (organized religion) to the trash heap. Maybe I should have given the Episcopal Church a chance. They seem more well suited to my way of thinking.
Knowing what I know now, I could never go back and feel I was being the least bit intellectually honest and socially responsible. To each his own.

[rock on sooner]

Hell I aint got a clue what they look like they all got rags covering em from head to toe.

When I was in Pakistan in the mid 60's a couple of my friends and
I saw what four of 'em looked like without the rags...only hair was
on their heads and arms...smelled pretty good, too.

[Sooner_Tuf]

Spare me. Not processing meeting new people? WTF? If there wasn't something there, then why the hell would people come up with stereotypes? Sheez. It ain't rocket surgery.

You're the guy PT Barnum was talking about.

[C&CDean]

You're the guy PT Barnum was talking about.

You must be the guy Archie Bunker was talking about.

So let me get this straight. Stereotypes are just something some ignorant hick came up with when he met somebody new? That's what you're trying to sell? It's not something that came about from the behaviors of some/many folks of whatever persuasion?

Would it be stereotyping to say that young people without most of their teeth might be meth addicts? That liberals can't think/act/protect themselves so they want the government to do it for them? That able bodied people on welfare and food stamps are lazy ****s? That Asian children do better at math than American kids? That white Obama lovers wear birkenstocks and drive little cars?

I think you need to get out more often.

[KantoSooner]

Marfa, you just don't get it. It's not, at root, the liberal/leftists who are the problem, according to cruiser, its THE DISOBEDIENT. Those who question. Those who are unwilling to accept authority, bow their heads, tug their forelocks and await, in bovine contentment, the orders of their betters in THE HIERARCHY.

And thus we come, in the words of the bard, to the 'crux of the biscuit'; and again, rarely has it been outlined so succinctly. It is the matter of faith. If you believe, then you must believe completely and never question anything, no matter how insane or objectively evil. Just trudge ahead with the dull happiness of the slave, delighted to be rid of the challenge of making his own moral judgements. And, anyway, if 'oooops' the man above you in the hierarchy happens to have been, well, a ****ing psychopath, well, he'll get his in the afterlife, so you just hop down off that rack, climb out of the iron maiden, pull those bullets out of your forehead, stop bitching about the heat and chafing of the ropes binding you to the stake and get with some obedience.

Oh, and toss the Enlightenment. Bunch of crap anyway. People were far better off back when everyone knew his station. Yup, Marfa, you just didn't know when you had it good. Must have been that damn book learning that did it to you. But, what did we expect? It's been downhill ever since the peasants stated reading the bible on their own. That ****ing Guttenberg. *******.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

You don't know what you're talking about. How do you know if I've been to a Catholic church or not? What an absurd and phenomenally stupid thing to say.
I went through RCIA as an adult and studied Catholicism at length before I was baptized and confirmed in the Church. I knew more about Catholicism than a lot of people who went through Catholic schools. I wasn't raised Catholic, but I married a Catholic and gave it a fair shot.
No one here has "called me out on my ignorance," because no one has successfully refuted anything I've said on this subject.

Sonny boy, let me recap your statement for ya.


Catholics are still amongst the most misogynist groups on the planet.

Now that's a pretty broad based condemnation don't ya think. I too went through RCIA. I chose to join the church and wasn't pushed into it by my wife or anyone else. I've studied the catechism and been to several talks on the church's view of marriage. I have never heard anyone promote a viewpoint that women are inferior or that they should "obey" the husband.

Now you may have a problem with the Church hierarchy and the way it conducts its business and I may actually agree with you on a lot of that. But the statement you made was much broader than the Church leadership. So, you can either qualify your statement or consider yourself called out.

[marfacowboy]

Sonny boy, let me recap your statement for ya.

Sonny boy....I haven't heard that since the 60's, I think. Cute.


I have never heard anyone promote a viewpoint that women are inferior or that they should "obey" the husband.

I never said that was part of my experience with Catholics. I heard it plenty with the fundies, though.


Now you may have a problem with the Church hierarchy and the way it conducts its business and I may actually agree with you on a lot of that. But the statement you made was much broader than the Church leadership. So, you can either qualify your statement or consider yourself called out.

Bourbon, in my opinion, an institution that forbids women to be part of its leadership, and that makes it it's business to tell women how they should manage their reproductive affairs, is misogynist. It's institutional, so the broad brush treatment is defensible.

[marfacowboy]

Marfa, you just don't get it. It's not, at root, the liberal/leftists who are the problem, according to cruiser, its THE DISOBEDIENT. Those who question. Those who are unwilling to accept authority, bow their heads, tug their forelocks and await, in bovine contentment, the orders of their betters in THE HIERARCHY.

And thus we come, in the words of the bard, to the 'crux of the biscuit'; and again, rarely has it been outlined so succinctly. It is the matter of faith. If you believe, then you must believe completely and never question anything, no matter how insane or objectively evil. Just trudge ahead with the dull happiness of the slave, delighted to be rid of the challenge of making his own moral judgements. And, anyway, if 'oooops' the man above you in the hierarchy happens to have been, well, a ****ing psychopath, well, he'll get his in the afterlife, so you just hop down off that rack, climb out of the iron maiden, pull those bullets out of your forehead, stop bitching about the heat and chafing of the ropes binding you to the stake and get with some obedience.

Oh, and toss the Enlightenment. Bunch of crap anyway. People were far better off back when everyone knew his station. Yup, Marfa, you just didn't know when you had it good. Must have been that damn book learning that did it to you. But, what did we expect? It's been downhill ever since the peasants stated reading the bible on their own. That ****ing Guttenberg. *******.

Standing O....
It's so much easier to do as you say, to bow one's head and trudge forward, blithely through life, never looking left or right, never questioning. Just keep following the Pied Piper and head straight to the cliff.

[Chuck Bao]

I agree with Marfa, up to a point. In many churches, catholic or protestant, women can't be priests, ministers, pastors or even say an out loud prayer during a church service. Some justify that by New Testament verses and some by society norms as the man must lead his household and in extension lead his church in prayer.

On the flip side, it is almost like saying that women can't have as clear channel to God (through the intercession of his son, Jesus, of course) as men do. I highly doubt that many think about it in those terms, but it boils down to just that.

Religious orthodoxy, regardless of faith, has always been about maintaining the status quo. That's pretty universal. In the Buddhist faith, males are assumed to be re-born higher. Only males can don the saffron robes and become a monk. Female monks must wear white.

My Asian Muslim friends say that they love, honor and respect women, as Mohammed did his wife. Asians don't abide by Sharia law like those of the faith from the Middle East and Africa.

I have yet to have the courage to tell one of them that I could also love, honor and respect my dog.

And there is no moral equivalency to any of it, especially as most religions don't mandate stoning or throwing people off of mountain tops.

[marfacowboy]

My Asian Muslim friends say that they love, honor and respect women, as Mohammed did his wife. Asians don't abide by Sharia law like those of the faith from the Middle East and Africa.

I have yet to have the courage to tell one of them that I could also love, honor and respect my dog.

And there is no moral equivalency to any of it, especially as most religions don't mandate stoning or throwing people off of mountain tops.

Well stated.

I think I identify more with Taoism these days. I won't go so far as deny the existence of something beyond us that we can't understand. But I can't prove it, either, so I suppose that makes me more of an agnostic. On several of my backcountry trips, particularly ones in the Smokies or the Southern San Juan's, I often had what some would might call a "spiritual" experience. The strange, yet satisfying experience of feeling that you're a part of something much larger. That feeling of "interconnectedness" with all things, living or not. Even with the rocks beneath my feet.

You captured the intent of my original post much more eloquently than I did.

[olevetonahill]

Well stated.

I think I identify more with Taoism these days. I won't go so far as deny the existence of something beyond us that we can't understand. But I can't prove it, either, so I suppose that makes me more of an agnostic. On several of my backcountry trips, particularly ones in the Smokies or the Southern San Juan's, I often had what some would might call a "spiritual" experience. The strange, yet satisfying experience of feeling that you're a part of something much larger. That feeling of "interconnectedness" with all things, living or not. Even with the rocks beneath my feet.

You captured the intent of my original post much more eloquently than I did.

You Gheys always stick together

[soonercruiser]

That's what happens when you "take a stand", and stand too long in one place!
Or....is that "stance"?

It's a golf thing for me. I only play with one ball at a time!
:cheerful:

[soonercruiser]

Well, this is an astounding post. It's liberals, leftists and conformists that are the cause of the sexual problems within the Church. My oh my.
I was very disappointed that things didn't work out for me as a Catholic. I thought I'd at last found a home. I fled from the fundamentalism of my parents like someone screamed "fire!" in a crowded theater. I thought I'd finally found a group that accepted all people, regardless of station, background, etc. and an organization that had an appreciation for ritual and tradition. I always loved those old buildings. Everything seemed so well matched, until Ibecame more deeply involved, of course. The more questions my wife and I asked, the more troubling it all became.
Finally, I came to the intellectual conclusion that I'd tried to avoid during my college years, and tossed the whole thing (organized religion) to the trash heap. Maybe I should have given the Episcopal Church a chance. They seem more well suited to my way of thinking.
Knowing what I know now, I could never go back and feel I was being the least bit intellectually honest and socially responsible. To each his own.

Sorry that you didn't find "What YOU Wanted"!
I'll admit....obedience is tuff!

[marfacowboy]

Sorry that you didn't find "What YOU Wanted"!
I'll admit....obedience is tuff!

Well, I can only find what I want, not what others want. But ultimately I did find what I was looking for. It just wasn't there.

[diverdog]

Well stated.

I think I identify more with Taoism these days. I won't go so far as deny the existence of something beyond us that we can't understand. But I can't prove it, either, so I suppose that makes me more of an agnostic. On several of my backcountry trips, particularly ones in the Smokies or the Southern San Juan's, I often had what some would might call a "spiritual" experience. The strange, yet satisfying experience of feeling that you're a part of something much larger. That feeling of "interconnectedness" with all things, living or not. Even with the rocks beneath my feet.

You captured the intent of my original post much more eloquently than I did.

Are you a backpacker by chance? I have two trips coming up next month...Shenandoah and the Bold Coast of Maine. Then an AT section trip in October.

[marfacowboy]

Are you a backpacker by chance? I have two trips coming up next month...Shenandoah and the Bold Coast of Maine. Then an AT section trip in October.

Frequently when I was younger. Not so much the past two years, and I miss it a lot. I've done a lot of backpacking in the east, although never Shenandoah for some reason. Pretty country, though. The Smokies, large chunks of the AT, some of the CDT, New Mexico, Southern San Juan's, NorCal and Big Bend.
I gave most of my gear to my son when he graduated this spring...with a ulterior motive of getting all the latest stuff before the fall.

[diverdog]

Frequently when I was younger. Not so much the past two years, and I miss it a lot. I've done a lot of backpacking in the east, although never Shenandoah for some reason. Pretty country, though. The Smokies, large chunks of the AT, some of the CDT, New Mexico, Southern San Juan's, NorCal and Big Bend.
I gave most of my gear to my son when he graduated this spring...with a ulterior motive of getting all the latest stuff before the fall.

I am a gear hound. It is almost embarrassing. This year alone I have bought 4 backpacks.
I am trying to go ultralight and I got a Golite, Granite Gear and Ultralite Adventures backpacks. The Granite Gear I like. I think I have bought a half dozen stoves as well and two new sleeping bags. This year I will be in the field about 60 days so the stuff gets used. What itboils down to is that I am always trying to find the better mouse trap. Funny part is that sometimes I dirt bag it and use minimal gear and sleep under the stars. I have been know to carry a cat food tin as a stove and a milk jug for water. It is all good and getting out is the best part.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Sonny boy....I haven't heard that since the 60's, I think. Cute.



I never said that was part of my experience with Catholics. I heard it plenty with the fundies, though.



Bourbon, in my opinion, an institution that forbids women to be part of its leadership, and that makes it it's business to tell women how they should manage their reproductive affairs, is misogynist. It's institutional, so the broad brush treatment is defensible.


I'm bringing sonny boy back. Feel free to use it wherever you see fit. Also, I don't know what a fundie is.

Your free to your opinions and yet the Catholic Church lionizes Mary above everybody, even her husband Joseph, outside the Trinity. And, btw, the Church looks down on condoms and vesectomies just as much as they do female birth control so I don't think the teaching on reproduction is limited to just women.

Also, comparing the Catholic Church's hierarchy and teachings on reproduction to the subject of the original post is a bit out of place don't ya think.

[marfacowboy]

I am a gear hound. It is almost embarrassing. This year alone I have bought 4 backpacks.
I am trying to go ultralight and I got a Golite, Granite Gear and Ultralite Adventures backpacks. The Granite Gear I like. I think I have bought a half dozen stoves as well and two new sleeping bags. This year I will be in the field about 60 days so the stuff gets used. What itboils down to is that I am always trying to find the better mouse trap. Funny part is that sometimes I dirt bag it and use minimal gear and sleep under the stars. I have been know to carry a cat food tin as a stove and a milk jug for water. It is all good and getting out is the best part.

The highlight of my month was getting Backpacker magazine, spreading my topos out on the dining room table, planning the trips, ordering **** from REI or wherever. For me, there were few things better in life than finding the perfect, isolated site.
I had a special room filled with Marmot, Gregory and Northface gear. Stoves, filters, Thermarests...you know the drill.
****, I need to get back in the game. That's why I'm so grumpy. I'm not backpacking.

[marfacowboy]

I'm bringing sonny boy back. Feel free to use it wherever you see fit. Also, I don't know what a fundie is.

lol...you should. Fundamentalist...


Your free to your opinions and yet the Catholic Church lionizes Mary above everybody, even her husband Joseph, outside the Trinity. And, btw, the Church looks down on condoms and vesectomies just as much as they do female birth control so I don't think the teaching on reproduction is limited to just women.

Funny thing about Mary. My fundamentalist friends (and mother) accused me of joining "the cult of Mary." Point taken.


Also, comparing the Catholic Church's hierarchy and teachings on reproduction to the subject of the original post is a bit out of place don't ya think.
Maybe. Conversations ebb and flow in different directions. If you were in a room with people talking about such things, you know as well as I do the conversation could drift into all sorts of directions.
One way to make the Catholic church, or any institution, better is to recognize its issues and discuss them openly. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church is perhaps the most top down hierarchical organization on the planet and doesn't put "suggestion boxes" in its churches.

[diverdog]

The highlight of my month was getting Backpacker magazine, spreading my topos out on the dining room table, planning the trips, ordering **** from REI or wherever. For me, there were few things better in life than finding the perfect, isolated site.
I had a special room filled with Marmot, Gregory and Northface gear. Stoves, filters, Thermarests...you know the drill.
****, I need to get back in the game. That's why I'm so grumpy. I'm not backpacking.

I forgot I have a brand new Gregory pack in the box. REI had a great price.

My friends have a joke about my basement. Each of them want to be put in my will.

We were pouring over our maps last night and we are getting together Friday to iron out any remaining details. My biggest worry is water this time of year in Shenandoah. The other issue mileage. Several of our sons are going and they have not backpacked. We are going to keep it at 10 miles or less. We are looking to hike from 3 miles south of South Rivers Falls to Big Meadows campground over 3 days.

This is our Maine trip;

http://maine.gov/doc/nrimc/mgs/explore/bedrock/sites/jun10-map.pdf

It is a two day trek. I saw it in Backpacker and decided to backpack it while I am up there. My bear vault just came in because Maine is crawling with bears.

I am hoping to go to Montana in September if I can swing it.

Most of my trips are 4 days or less. Gone are the days of 30 day treks. Work messes up your backpacking life.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

lol...you should. Fundamentalist...



Funny thing about Mary. My fundamentalist friends (and mother) accused me of joining "the cult of Mary." Point taken.

Yeah, to the fundies (see I learned some new lingo sonny boy) we Catholics are a bunch of idol worshippers because we ask for the intercession of saints (we don't actually pray to saints but some folks don't get the distinction).



Maybe. Conversations ebb and flow in different directions. If you were in a room with people talking about such things, you know as well as I do the conversation could drift into all sorts of directions.
One way to make the Catholic church, or any institution, better is to recognize its issues and discuss them openly. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church is perhaps the most top down hierarchical organization on the planet and doesn't put "suggestion boxes" in its churches.

Yeah, those old dudes in Rome aren't much for taking suggestions from the flock. Let's face it, there's very few of us Catholics living up to the Church's teachings on reproduction and I sure as hell ain't one of them. I'm Catholic because I believe in the Eucharist not what some old guy in Rome has to say about everything.

[KantoSooner]

Diver, take your 'Alaskan Bear Pistol' with you. A double barrel .50 derringer. In case of bear attack, everybody run like hell. If the bear chases, take out the pistol and shoot your friend in the leg, keep running. If the bear stops for him, all is good. If the bear keeps chasing you, shoot yourself in the head.

[marfacowboy]

Yeah, those old dudes in Rome aren't much for taking suggestions from the flock. Let's face it, there's very few of us Catholics living up to the Church's teachings on reproduction and I sure as hell ain't one of them. I'm Catholic because I believe in the Eucharist not what some old guy in Rome has to say about everything.

I often skipped the vino. Depended on who was in front of me.

"Leave the gun Take the cannoli."

[marfacowboy]

We were pouring over our maps last night and we are getting together Friday to iron out any remaining details. My biggest worry is water this time of year in Shenandoah. The other issue mileage. Several of our sons are going and they have not backpacked. We are going to keep it at 10 miles or less. We are looking to hike from 3 miles south of South Rivers Falls to Big Meadows campground over 3 days.

They'll have a big time. You'll probably be stopping a lot to check hot spots on their feet, though. I always found fresh socks and well broken boots were important to protect against blisters. I hope they've been wearing their boots around town, too. When I was in East Tennessee, I'd see a lot of young guys with heavy packs and brand new boots. Bad combination!

[diverdog]

Diver, take your 'Alaskan Bear Pistol' with you. A double barrel .50 derringer. In case of bear attack, everybody run like hell. If the bear chases, take out the pistol and shoot your friend in the leg, keep running. If the bear stops for him, all is good. If the bear keeps chasing you, shoot yourself in the head.

LOL

I have seen two grizzes in the wild. One while in a vehicle and the other a long way off in the Bitterroots. Last fall I had a 500 pound black bear near my camp.

When we were on the AT last year I was on this chitter that was raised off the ground by 8 feet. I heard what I thought was a bear while I was on the throne. It was 2 in the morning and I was feeling terrible. I kept flashing my light everywhere looking for the bear thinking he would attack me mid dump. Needless to say I was in a bad spot and scared ****less. Once I collected my thoughts and *** I realized it wasn't a bear but a cow in the distance. Funny how your mind works
.

[KantoSooner]

I was a pack animal on a couple of float trips in Alaska (end of the summer, I'd been working pipeline/refinery maintenance). Got way too much bear terror for my taste. No real problems, it was just having to govern everything you do with the knowledge that you're surrounded by carnivorous hogs the size of volkswagens. It's not PC, but turn the lot of them into rugs for all I care.

[diverdog]

I was a pack animal on a couple of float trips in Alaska (end of the summer, I'd been working pipeline/refinery maintenance). Got way too much bear terror for my taste. No real problems, it was just having to govern everything you do with the knowledge that you're surrounded by carnivorous hogs the size of volkswagens. It's not PC, but turn the lot of them into rugs for all I care.

Good stuff.

Here is my throne:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/tim1158/IMG_0043.jpg

I had both feet against the door thinking a bear was coming any second. When I told my friends about my experience they howled. Oh and the sign on the door said "Beware of Bears".

The bad thing now is that some of the bears in the NE have figured out how to open the Bearacade brand of bear proof containers.