Progressive Louisiana Funds Muslim Schools

[yermom]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/07/05/louisiana-republican-when-i-voted-for-state-funds-to-go-to-religious-schools-i-didnt-mean-muslim-ones/

heh.

idoits.


a shoutout to SicEm the deist, btw :biggrin:

[KantoSooner]

Rarely do you get a better fact pattern on which to base an argument supporting complete separation of church and state that even the christians can understand than this one. If the vouchers are good for tuition to Victory Christian, why not to Muhammed Akbar Madrassa?

[cleller]

Those cajun islamabad schools will be everywhere.

[badger]

This was something that a lot of red states tried to push through recently, including Oklahoma, but we just limited vouchers to students with disabilities to attend private school... and some districts are fighting it, saying that public funding should not go to private schools since it's unconstitutional (it probably is).

I would rather states not do this, because like college costs lately, having more funds available via the government for private schools will jack up the price and the intended effect (or at least the intended effect to the public) is to make private school more affordable. I suspect that the actual intended effect is to minimize public education funding.

LOL at Louisiana. Hope other states see this and slam the brakes on this stupid legislation.

[Midtowner]

God these people are dumb.

[badger]

God these people are dumb.
S-E-C! S-E-C!

^^^truth^^^

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Schools that participate in the voucher program have to be approved by the State board of education. To my knowledge no Saudi funded madrassahs have been approved under the voucher program.

[cleller]

In regard to the attack on the politicians involved;

It seems like the constant media microscope that political candidates face these days has chased away the best candidates. Moderate, intelligent people don't want to live that life. More and more we're left with the extremists from both sides, people with a chip on their shoulder, or kinda ignorant folks.

[KantoSooner]

And such approval would cost you what in the LA state house? $1.50 a vote?

[Bourbon St Sooner]

This was something that a lot of red states tried to push through recently, including Oklahoma, but we just limited vouchers to students with disabilities to attend private school... and some districts are fighting it, saying that public funding should not go to private schools since it's unconstitutional (it probably is).

I would rather states not do this, because like college costs lately, having more funds available via the government for private schools will jack up the price and the intended effect (or at least the intended effect to the public) is to make private school more affordable. I suspect that the actual intended effect is to minimize public education funding.

LOL at Louisiana. Hope other states see this and slam the brakes on this stupid legislation.

The intent is to make the public schools fight for resources and break the gov't monopoly on schools which has only produced mediocrity. If more funding to the public schools were the answer we'd have the best schools in the world. I live in New Orleans and the schools are terrible. Why should the public continue to put up with publicly funded mediocrity.

[OU68]

When we moved from Pennsylvania to New Orleans, our insurance agent told us our cost would at least double - they give oral exams because there are so many people in LA that can't read - doesn't surprise me that Hodges didn't see this coming.

[Midtowner]

Schools that participate in the voucher program have to be approved by the State board of education. To my knowledge no Saudi funded madrassahs have been approved under the voucher program.

The Islamic School of Greater New Orleans withdrew its application at the last minute. It's only a matter of time. Next year, I wouldn't be shocked if the Scientologists get in on this game. There's a lot of money to be made here.

The idiot voters of Louisiana deserve the government they vote for.

[Midtowner]

The intent is to make the public schools fight for resources and break the gov't monopoly on schools which has only produced mediocrity. If more funding to the public schools were the answer we'd have the best schools in the world. I live in New Orleans and the schools are terrible. Why should the public continue to put up with publicly funded mediocrity.

What we need are more schools which list the Lochness Monster as proof that evolution is a lie in their textbooks. That'll certainly clear up that mediocrity problem.

[yermom]

The intent is to make the public schools fight for resources and break the gov't monopoly on schools which has only produced mediocrity. If more funding to the public schools were the answer we'd have the best schools in the world. I live in New Orleans and the schools are terrible. Why should the public continue to put up with publicly funded mediocrity.

are religious schools the only private schools?

[Bourbon St Sooner]

The Islamic School of Greater New Orleans withdrew its application at the last minute. It's only a matter of time. Next year, I wouldn't be shocked if the Scientologists get in on this game. There's a lot of money to be made here.

The idiot voters of Louisiana deserve the government they vote for.

What will happen is that a bunch of Billy Bob's schools run by some friend of the Governor will pop up and start "educating" kids. That's just what you expect in Louisiana. But those will still be better than the warehouse schools that currently "educate" kids in the inner city. And some kids will get a chance to go to Archdiocesan schools and actually have a shot at life.

The voucher program itself it quite small. Maybe a few thousand kids will participate. But if it gets the atheists panties in a wad and diminishes the power of the teacher's union, then I guess it's worth it.

[okie52]

What we need are more schools which list the Lochness Monster as proof that evolution is a lie in their textbooks. That'll certainly clear up that mediocrity problem.

I'll just take a wild guess here and say that kids that graduate from private schools (religious or otherwise) somehow score higher on ACT's and SATs than do public school students.

[Midtowner]

This wouldn't fly in Oklahoma:

"§ 5. Public money or property - Use for sectarian purposes.

No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such." Oklahoma Constitution, Art. II, Sect. 5.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

are religious schools the only private schools?

I don't know the stats but I would guess they are 95% of private schools and Catholic Schools are probably 60%. What I worry about is opportunists coming in and setting up schools. Probably just another thing to keep the US Attorney here in New Orleans busy.

[okie52]

This wouldn't fly in Oklahoma:

"§ 5. Public money or property - Use for sectarian purposes.

No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such." Oklahoma Constitution, Art. II, Sect. 5.

There's always amendments.

[Midtowner]

I'll just take a wild guess here and say that kids that graduate from private schools (religious or otherwise) somehow score higher on ACT's and SATs than do public school students.

Not necessarily. Religious schools tend to do terrible on science. I'm actually working on a case where we're fighting over where the kids are going to school. The big 6A school has as good or better academic rankings even though it has to include a lot of poor non-college-bound students than poor folks.

Anecdotally, I went to both private (Bishop McGuinness) and public (Edmond North) and can tell you that at least in the late 90s, Edmond North was miles ahead of McGuinness in terms of its AP programs, diverse course offerings, far superior fine arts programs, etc.

Our suburban public schools and urban charter schools are excellent, even compared to Casady, Holland Hall, etc.

--and when Holland Hall starts admitting just whoever on a 7K voucher, do you think they'll continue to perform as well as they do?

[badger]

Schools that participate in the voucher program have to be approved by the State board of education. To my knowledge no Saudi funded madrassahs have been approved under the voucher program.

How soon till the lawsuits based on religious discrimination start trickling in when a religious school is denied after a religious school of another religion is approved.

All or nothing, or lawsuits. Please, just choose the "nothing" option. As someone who really didn't enjoy school but does enjoy church, why can't we leave church fun and school boring by keeping the two separate?

[Midtowner]

There's always amendments.

Well then, get ready to pay tax money towards Muslim and Scientology schools.

[okie52]

Well then, get ready to pay tax money towards Muslim and Scientology schools.

I never had a problem with vouchers as long as the schools are accredited.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I'll just take a wild guess here and say that kids that graduate from private schools (religious or otherwise) somehow score higher on ACT's and SATs than do public school students.

I can guaran-damn-tee you that kids graduating from private schools in New Orleans have higher college admission scores than kids graduating from public schools. There are a few selective admissions charter schools in New Orleans that are very good but they are hard to get into.

[badger]

I can guaran-damn-tee you that kids graduating from private schools in New Orleans have higher college admission scores than kids graduating from public schools. There are a few selective admissions charter schools in New Orleans that are very good but they are hard to get into.

Is it possibly because the parents give a damn about their kid's education, unlike some (many, perhaps?) parents in public schools?

Parental involvement is key to educational success, not vouchers, not funding, not private versus public, not religious affiliation.

:( Sad face for the sad state of education.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

How soon till the lawsuits based on religious discrimination start trickling in when a religious school is denied after a religious school of another religion is approved.

All or nothing, or lawsuits. Please, just choose the "nothing" option. As someone who really didn't enjoy school but does enjoy church, why can't we leave church fun and school boring by keeping the two separate?

I don't care if it's a parochial school or a public school or a secular private school, if it's actually educating kids we should give it a try. The inner cities are a hell hole of inopportunity and there's many reasons for that, but no denying that crappy schools feed into it.

If a legitimate muslim school wants to apply for voucher students I have no problem with it. As long as it's a legitimate school that teaches something besides memorizing Koran verses or some radical ideology.

[Midtowner]

I don't care if it's a parochial school or a public school or a secular private school, if it's actually educating kids we should give it a try. The inner cities are a hell hole of inopportunity and there's many reasons for that, but no denying that crappy schools feed into it.

If a legitimate muslim school wants to apply for voucher students I have no problem with it. As long as it's a legitimate school that teaches something besides memorizing Koran verses or some radical ideology.

As long as it teaches everything it's supposed to, what is wrong with requiring students to memorize the Koran? Or for that matter, what's wrong with requiring students to submit to Audits and learning the secrets of Xenu?

[badger]

I don't care if it's a parochial school or a public school or a secular private school, if it's actually educating kids we should give it a try. The inner cities are a hell hole of inopportunity and there's many reasons for that, but no denying that crappy schools feed into it.

Word. After all...
-ej7ZEnjSeA
;) Sorry, had to slip some humor in Friday since this subject is so serious.
http://blogs.evtrib.com/nerdvana/files/2008/07/batmanthedarkknightscreenshot3.jpg

[KantoSooner]

I can guaran-damn-tee you that kids graduating from private schools in New Orleans have higher college admission scores than kids graduating from public schools. There are a few selective admissions charter schools in New Orleans that are very good but they are hard to get into.

Yah, but do your little pansy boys from suburbia know how to field strip and reload an AK-47 in a dark basement with popo's flying around in helicopters with search lights on 'em? Didn't think so.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Is it possibly because the parents give a damn about their kid's education, unlike some (many, perhaps?) parents in public schools?

Parental involvement is key to educational success, not vouchers, not funding, not private versus public, not religious affiliation.

:( Sad face for the sad state of education.

I agree that it is, but there's a lot of good kids stuck in bad schools. In order to get a voucher there's going to have to be some commitment from the parents and students. They are going to have to apply for a voucher and get their kids up and probably take them across the city to get their kids to school. The private schools aren't going to put up with kids coming in late or acting up. The ones that don't care will stay in the ****ty schools or drop out.

The voucher system isn't about funding parochial schools it's about putting kids in schools that work.

[Midtowner]

If we wanted schools that work, we could just found a bunch of secular charter schools like we've done here in OKC to great success. This is about funding religious schools, nothing more.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

As long as it teaches everything it's supposed to, what is wrong with requiring students to memorize the Koran? Or for that matter, what's wrong with requiring students to submit to Audits and learning the secrets of Xenu?

If you can squeeze in reading, riting, rithmatic with all that then go for it. It sounds better than learning the ever present skills of pimping, armed robbery, drug dealing and revenge killings.

[okie52]

As long as it teaches everything it's supposed to, what is wrong with requiring students to memorize the Koran? Or for that matter, what's wrong with requiring students to submit to Audits and learning the secrets of Xenu?

Nothing.

[yermom]

Yah, but do your little pansy boys from suburbia know how to field strip and reload an AK-47 in a dark basement with popo's flying around in helicopters with search lights on 'em? Didn't think so.

wait, you want them to go to the Muslim schools?

[Bourbon St Sooner]

If we wanted schools that work, we could just found a bunch of secular charter schools like we've done here in OKC to great success. This is about funding religious schools, nothing more.

Since Katrina, New Orleans has led an unprecedented expiriment in school choice involving charter schools. Kids aren't locked into district schools anymore. Schools have to go out and recruit students and the number of schools that are now performing adequately has more than doubled. There's still a lot of bad schools though and the voucher program is just another element of choice.

[okie52]

If we wanted schools that work, we could just found a bunch of secular charter schools like we've done here in OKC to great success. This is about funding religious schools, nothing more.

Really? Well why haven't the public schools just provided all of those secular charter schools? I doubt you would have nearly as much angst about private secular school vouchers. If public money gets more bang from the buck by vouchers to private schools (secular or religious) then I'm all for them.

[Midtowner]

Since Katrina, New Orleans has led an unprecedented expiriment in school choice involving charter schools. Kids aren't locked into district schools anymore. Schools have to go out and recruit students and the number of schools that are now performing adequately has more than doubled. There's still a lot of bad schools though and the voucher program is just another element of choice.

If it's working and there is adequate secular supply, is there any evidence that religious schools will perform better than their secular counterparts?

[Midtowner]

Really? Well why haven't the public schools just provided all of those secular charter schools? I doubt you would have nearly as much angst about private secular school vouchers. If public money gets more bang from the buck by vouchers to private schools (secular or religious) then I'm all for them.

In Oklahoma City or Tulsa, if you want your child to attend a secular charter school, that's certainly an option. In fact, some of those schools are among the best in the state.

[TitoMorelli]

I don't care if it's a parochial school or a public school or a secular private school, if it's actually educating kids we should give it a try. The inner cities are a hell hole of inopportunity and there's many reasons for that, but no denying that crappy schools feed into it.

If a legitimate muslim school wants to apply for voucher students I have no problem with it. As long as it's a legitimate school that teaches something besides memorizing Koran verses or some radical ideology.

How dare you place concern for children over the best interests of the NEA and the separation clause fanatics !!

[yermom]

i don't get charter schools

aren't you just stacking the deck with better students? why would they even be compared to other public schools?

shouldn't it be the worst performing students that get the better facilities and smaller class sizes? do i have my perceptions vs. reality wrong on this?

[Bourbon St Sooner]

If it's working and there is adequate secular supply, is there any evidence that religious schools will perform better than their secular counterparts?

Because in New Orleans doubling the number of adequate schools means that half are still failing. That's how bad they were before Katrina and you had a corrupt school board that was more interested in enriching themselves than educating kids. Don't get me started.

I think the biggest problem with inner city schools is what do you do with the kids that just don't care and cause problems? The public schools can't just get rid of them. How do you get kids in an environment that celebrates achievement rather than mocks it?

[Midtowner]

i don't get charter schools

aren't you just stacking the deck with better students? why would they even be compared to other public schools?

shouldn't it be the worst performing students that get the better facilities and smaller class sizes? do i have my perceptions vs. reality wrong on this?

What charter schools are varies from state to state. Here, they're sponsored by an institution of higher learning or an existing school district. Charters receive money based upon student attendance, just like public schools, minus a certain "administrative fee" (a something for nothing fee) taken by the host district.

Charters in Oklahoma may admit students using two possible methods: First come/first serve or a lottery. Selecting based on performance or audition or whatever is illegal.

They must also serve special needs students in exactly the same way mainstream public schools are required to.

As far as facilities, they're on their own. Keep in mind, they have budgets made up of less money than traditional schools get and don't have access to bond money. Most Oklahoma charter schools are in refurbished buildings which have been abandoned by the traditional public schools. Most of those facilities, especially those in OKC are decidedly worse than what OKCPS uses.

(my wife teaches at Harding Charter Prep, which is Oklahoma's top academic school [this year] according to U.S. News and World Report and the #145 top public high school nationwide. 1/3 of the students are classified as economically disadvantaged, more than half are racial minorities and every single student goes to college, so I am very much in favor of these schools)

[Midtowner]

I think the biggest problem with inner city schools is what do you do with the kids that just don't care and cause problems? The public schools can't just get rid of them. How do you get kids in an environment that celebrates achievement rather than mocks it?

I've always been in favor of residential, possibly military boarding schools for severely at-risk children. They need to be taught respect and accountability. That would certainly be opposed by the welfare queens who depend on those children for their checks, but screw 'em. I put kids first.

[cleller]

I can guaran-damn-tee you that kids graduating from private schools in New Orleans have higher college admission scores than kids graduating from public schools. There are a few selective admissions charter schools in New Orleans that are very good but they are hard to get into.

Seems pretty basic to assume private school kids would outscore public school kids. If you believe that smarter people make more money, and can afford private schools, whatever.
Here's something a private school organization published to document ACT scores. I wonder if the gap COULD be even wider, if you consider that a lower percentage of public school kids actually take the ACT vs private school kids.

http://www.capenet.org/pdf/Outlook339.pdf

[badger]

Question: Should every citizen be able to opt out of paying taxes that support public schools?

If everyone can't, then citizens with children that parents want to send to private schools should not be able to get vouchers via tax money, because essentially, it's like opting out of paying taxes to support public schools.

Those tax dollars are not solely for a parent's children, but for every child in the state to be educated via the public school system. So a rich guy with a big tax bill has no kids and pays tons into the system. So a poor woman with many kids pays nothing into the system. If that doesn't matter, then EVERYone, parents of private school children included, should be expected to pay into the public school system.

But yes, the system is broken and there needs to be something changed. I just don't think vouchers to private schools are the answers. I like what Oklahoma does as far as districts being forced to pay to bus kids away from failing schools to better public schools. That motivates districts to improve so that they get those kids (and their tax money) back.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

i don't get charter schools

aren't you just stacking the deck with better students? why would they even be compared to other public schools?

shouldn't it be the worst performing students that get the better facilities and smaller class sizes? do i have my perceptions vs. reality wrong on this?

In New Orleans there are some charter schools that are selective admission but most are not, meaning they have to take all comers they have slots for. As Mid said, these are schools run by universities or other private organizations The beauty of charter schools is that if they don't perform, the school board will yank the charter. I like the fact that this time of year you have signs all over town from different schools asking kids to take a look and apply for their school. It's an immeasurably better system than the neighborhood schools we were roped into when I was in OKC public schools.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Well this thread sure brought up some interest. I suppose I should do some work today.

[Midtowner]

But yes, the system is broken and there needs to be something changed. I just don't think vouchers to private schools are the answers. I like what Oklahoma does as far as districts being forced to pay to bus kids away from failing schools to better public schools. That motivates districts to improve so that they get those kids (and their tax money) back.

Agree with all of your points re vouchers.

Didn't we end the Finger Plan a long time ago though? Bussing really didn't do much except make well-to-do whites move their kids to suburban and private schools.

[KantoSooner]

Maybe we could construct a system in which each kid had his public education paid for, but had the option of entering a lottery to go to whatever public school he/she wanted to within X miles of home.
Then turn around and offer 'battle pay' incentives to teachers to work in the 'worst' schools; but only allow teachers to go after that pay if they score say 90% or better on competitive evaluations. I e, incentivize the best teachers to go to the worst schools.

[badger]

Maybe we could construct a system in which each kid had his public education paid for, but had the option of entering a lottery to go to whatever public school he/she wanted to within X miles of home.
Then turn around and offer 'battle pay' incentives to teachers to work in the 'worst' schools; but only allow teachers to go after that pay if they score say 90% or better on competitive evaluations. I e, incentivize the best teachers to go to the worst schools.
I think the unions howled at the idea of "merit pay."

I also think the state howled at raising teacher pay.

In a nutshell, education money evokes a lot of howling.

[yermom]

Question: Should every citizen be able to opt out of paying taxes that support public schools?

If everyone can't, then citizens with children that parents want to send to private schools should not be able to get vouchers via tax money, because essentially, it's like opting out of paying taxes to support public schools.

Those tax dollars are not solely for a parent's children, but for every child in the state to be educated via the public school system. So a rich guy with a big tax bill has no kids and pays tons into the system. So a poor woman with many kids pays nothing into the system. If that doesn't matter, then EVERYone, parents of private school children included, should be expected to pay into the public school system.

But yes, the system is broken and there needs to be something changed. I just don't think vouchers to private schools are the answers. I like what Oklahoma does as far as districts being forced to pay to bus kids away from failing schools to better public schools. That motivates districts to improve so that they get those kids (and their tax money) back.

very valid point.

[yermom]

What charter schools are varies from state to state. Here, they're sponsored by an institution of higher learning or an existing school district. Charters receive money based upon student attendance, just like public schools, minus a certain "administrative fee" (a something for nothing fee) taken by the host district.

Charters in Oklahoma may admit students using two possible methods: First come/first serve or a lottery. Selecting based on performance or audition or whatever is illegal.

They must also serve special needs students in exactly the same way mainstream public schools are required to.

As far as facilities, they're on their own. Keep in mind, they have budgets made up of less money than traditional schools get and don't have access to bond money. Most Oklahoma charter schools are in refurbished buildings which have been abandoned by the traditional public schools. Most of those facilities, especially those in OKC are decidedly worse than what OKCPS uses.

(my wife teaches at Harding Charter Prep, which is Oklahoma's top academic school [this year] according to U.S. News and World Report and the #145 top public high school nationwide. 1/3 of the students are classified as economically disadvantaged, more than half are racial minorities and every single student goes to college, so I am very much in favor of these schools)

thanks. TIL...

[badger]

Charters show that public schools aren't all bad. While Tulsa Public Schools has some iffy schools (including that damn alternative school that was such an absolute atrocity (http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?articleID=20080618_61_A16_hEDITO22395 3) that they should have fired the superintendent on the spot instead of letting him resign first), its crowned jewel is Booker T. Washington, one of the best high schools in the country (as honored by Newsweek (http://newsok.com/eight-oklahoma-high-schools-named-to-top-1000-list/article/3677622/?page=2)).

[okie52]

In Oklahoma City or Tulsa, if you want your child to attend a secular charter school, that's certainly an option. In fact, some of those schools are among the best in the state.

I'm sure they are but evidently not enough of them.

[Midtowner]

I'm sure they are but evidently not enough of them.

Not all are at capacity. Some are some pretty good schools. Dove, for example, is not at full enrollment despite posting the top API scores in the state for a long time until very recently.

I certainly don't think we should be subsidizing Catholic or Muslim or Protestant schools with state dollars. Proselytize on your own dime.

I'm pretty sure Booker T is a magnet, not a charter. Magnets are NOT open enrollment. You have to qualify either academically or because of your talent in the fine arts or something to that effect.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

But yes, the system is broken and there needs to be something changed. I just don't think vouchers to private schools are the answers. I like what Oklahoma does as far as districts being forced to pay to bus kids away from failing schools to better public schools. That motivates districts to improve so that they get those kids (and their tax money) back.

I appreciate your thoughts on it. We're not going to agree on it. I just think the vouchers are another option for some students. It's a very limited option though. Last I heard there was about 2000 slots actually available in existing private schools state-wide.

The charter schools are a great improvement over traditional public schools but there's still a long way to go to reverse the decline in public schools and close the gap again. Vouchers will allow some students to close that gap immediately.

[okie52]

Not all are at capacity. Some are some pretty good schools. Dove, for example, is not at full enrollment despite posting the top API scores in the state for a long time until very recently.

I certainly don't think we should be subsidizing Catholic or Muslim or Protestant schools with state dollars. Proselytize on your own dime.

I'm pretty sure Booker T is a magnet, not a charter. Magnets are NOT open enrollment. You have to qualify either academically or because of your talent in the fine arts or something to that effect.

I am more concerned about kids getting good educations than some political spin. If private schools do a better job of educating kids then vouchers should be made available. You aren't subsidizing these schools any more than you are public schools which evidently don't do as good a job.

Now, of course, if you want to restrict the vouchers to those that actually pay state income taxes then I'm fine with that.

[yermom]

would you say that if they were private schools teaching atheism? is education the primary concern then?

i just don't think the government needs to pay to indoctrinate children to be good little Christians. their parents and churches do just fine.

[okie52]

would you say that if they were private schools teaching atheism? is education the primary concern then?

i just don't think the government needs to pay to indoctrinate children to be good little Christians. their parents and churches do just fine.

It doesn't matter whether they teach atheism or religion as long as they cover the necessary courses. Parents have a choice whether they want to send their kids to a parochial or secular school...and, again, public schools performance in the important educational areas don't stack up very well against private schools.

I just think of all of those loch ness monster, non evolutionary Episcopalean worshipping retards that go to Casady.

[Midtowner]

It doesn't matter whether they teach atheism or religion as long as they cover the necessary courses. Parents have a choice whether they want to send their kids to a parochial or secular school...and, again, public schools performance in the important educational areas don't stack up very well against private schools.

I just think of all of those loch ness monster, non evolutionary Episcopalean worshipping retards that go to Casady.

I went to Bishop McGuinness. Even the pope thinks creationists are wrong and that evolution has been scientifically proven and is consistent with the Catholic faith. I can't imagine Casady talking about creationism in a serious manner.

[pphilfran]

I atended Catholic skhool threw 8th grade...

Didn't seam to effect me to much...

[SanJoaquinSooner]

This was something that a lot of red states tried to push through recently, including Oklahoma, but we just limited vouchers to students with disabilities to attend private school... and some districts are fighting it, saying that public funding should not go to private schools since it's unconstitutional (it probably is).

I would rather states not do this, because like college costs lately, having more funds available via the government for private schools will jack up the price and the intended effect (or at least the intended effect to the public) is to make private school more affordable. I suspect that the actual intended effect is to minimize public education funding.

LOL at Louisiana. Hope other states see this and slam the brakes on this stupid legislation.


In California, the average annual cost per FTE student is $24,000 at a UC campus. Cal Grants of $9000 are awarded to students from households with modest income in order to attend private universities. That is a savings to the state.

I don't see how vouchers would be unconstitutional. Private vendors are used to provide goods and services for the gov't in many areas.

[olevetonahill]

I went to Bishop McGuinness. Even the pope thinks creationists are wrong and that evolution has been scientifically proven and is consistent with the Catholic faith. I can't imagine Casady talking about creationism in a serious manner.

So you keep sayin
Just how many priests bent ya over?

[Midtowner]

So you keep sayin
Just how many priests bent ya over?

Not a one. They didn't think I had "it" apparently.

--although we did have some priest from Norman broach the subject of masturbation with some coeds during confession.. some of those SOBs are creepy as hell (and they still think folks who believe in creationism are morons, so what's that tell ya?)

[olevetonahill]

Not a one. They didn't think I had "it" apparently.

--although we did have some priest from Norman broach the subject of masturbation with some coeds during confession.. some of those SOBs are creepy as hell (and they still think folks who believe in creationism are morons, so what's that tell ya?)

That yer as twisted as a Pretzel.

[soonercruiser]

Rarely do you get a better fact pattern on which to base an argument supporting complete separation of church and state that even the christians can understand than this one. If the vouchers are good for tuition to Victory Christian, why not to Muhammed Akbar Madrassa?

Unfortunately, I agree.
"Freedom of Religion" IS...freedom of Religion!

Besides....
That way the atheists can be consistent and refuse the $$!

[soonercruiser]

So you keep sayin
Just how many priests bent ya over?

No, NO, NO Vet!
On another thread Mid admits that he's a divorce lawyer.
That's why he is sooooo angry!

[LiveLaughLove]

“I’ve said that, Tom, that if I were the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan and I wanted to sabotage any opportunity for black academic excellence, I could not think of a better means for doing so than the public education establishment in most of our cities,” [Walter] Williams said.

[Thomas] Sowell agreed, adding that at this time their “friends” can do much more harm than their enemies.

I don't care of Muslims get vouchers to send their kids to Muslim schools, as long as those schools are accredited. It's complete hogwash to think that overall public schools are equal to private ones.

I just drove on E-470 around the NE part of Denver a few days ago. A far superior drive in every way to taking I-270, the other NE semi-loop around Denver. What's the difference? 470 is privately maintained, 270 is publicly maintained.

Yet again, private enterprise defeats a government bureaucracy, just as it will in education if fully given the chance. That's what the big government people fear. So to heck with the kids and what's best for them.

[KantoSooner]

Unfortunately, I agree.
"Freedom of Religion" IS...freedom of Religion!

Besides....
That way the atheists can be consistent and refuse the $$!

How about we just have religiously neutral public education and then, on weekends, religious folks can go to church and atheists can have pancakes? Everybody can be happy that way.

[TUSooner]

Rarely do you get a better fact pattern on which to base an argument supporting complete separation of church and state that even the christians can understand than this one. If the vouchers are good for tuition to Victory Christian, why not to Muhammed Akbar Madrassa?

AMEN!

Watson, LA could easily be Anytown, OK. Representative Hodges would probably do well in OK.

[Position Limit]

AMEN!

Watson, LA could easily be Anytown, OK. Representative Hodges would probably do well in OK.

honest question. why not just make vouchers ineligible to any private institution that has religon as part of it curriculum? shouldnt those schools be less worthy for wasting time with such nonsense?

[okie52]

honest question. why not just make vouchers ineligible to any private institution that has religon as part of it curriculum? shouldnt those schools be less worthy for wasting time with such nonsense?

If they outperform the public schools (and they generally do) why would it matter?

[Midtowner]

If they outperform the public schools (and they generally do) why would it matter?

Is there data to suggest that they do when they are serving demographically identical populations? I'm working a divorce case now where we're fighting over whether the children should attend a large public school or a small, evangelical private school. At least in this case, where the schools are serving similar populations, they're about the same in academics, with the public school taking an edge in the science area.

What might be much more interesting is comparing ostensibly secular private schools with strongly religious ones.

[okie52]

Is there data to suggest that they do when they are serving demographically identical populations? I'm working a divorce case now where we're fighting over whether the children should attend a large public school or a small, evangelical private school. At least in this case, where the schools are serving similar populations, they're about the same in academics, with the public school taking an edge in the science area.

What might be much more interesting is comparing ostensibly secular private schools with strongly religious ones.

Don't know what data there is on the subject about the demographics. It would be interesting to see.

Is heritage Hall considered secular? Be interesting to compare them with Casady.

[okie52]

Is there data to suggest that they do when they are serving demographically identical populations? I'm working a divorce case now where we're fighting over whether the children should attend a large public school or a small, evangelical private school. At least in this case, where the schools are serving similar populations, they're about the same in academics, with the public school taking an edge in the science area.

What might be much more interesting is comparing ostensibly secular private schools with strongly religious ones.

Don't know what data there is on the subject about the demographics. It would be interesting to see.

Is heritage Hall considered secular? Be interesting to compare them with Casady.

[jkjsooner]

In Oklahoma City or Tulsa, if you want your child to attend a secular charter school, that's certainly an option. In fact, some of those schools are among the best in the state.

The problem I have with charter schools is that the best ones are usually lottery based. So it's a crap shoot whether your kid gets into a decent charter school. While some may see this as the fairest solution, it definitely isn't a solution to our public school problems.

You also have to realize that the charter schools are selective with respect to parents who actually care about education and will go through the process of trying to get their kids into charter schools. I think this accounts for their improved performance much more than anything dealing with teachers or faculty.


As for vouchers, if someone could convince me that a voucher would fund a decent private education I'd go for it. I suspect it would actually do more harm than good. Some kids would be stuck in even worse public schools. Others would be stuck in whatever crappy private schools the voucher would pay for. Some upper middle class parents would now be able to subsidize their kids education and send them to Casady or Heritage Hall. (And don't think that these schools would want the voucher to cover the full cost!) The rich would still be sending their kids to Casady but now get subsidized for it.

I suspect this last part is really what it's all about...

[TUSooner]

The intent is to make the public schools fight for resources and break the gov't monopoly on schools which has only produced mediocrity. If more funding to the public schools were the answer we'd have the best schools in the world. I live in New Orleans and the schools are terrible. Why should the public continue to put up with publicly funded mediocrity.

This is true. NOLA had notoriously awful public schools, so at least here vouchers make some sense, because things didn;t seem like theye could be worse, and almost ANYTHING was worth a try. (Though there have been a few well-publicized abuses, such as a school that took the $$ and didn't teach anything except by TV. )

[TUSooner]

honest question. why not just make vouchers ineligible to any private institution that has religon as part of it curriculum? shouldnt those schools be less worthy for wasting time with such nonsense?

Partial answer, dodging the main issue of whether public $ should go to any religious anything:
Not all religious schools are bass-ackward anti-science dogma factories that are a waste of tuition (paid by whoever). A few of the Catholic schools in New Orleans are top-tier.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

The rich would still be sending their kids to Casady but now get subsidized for it.

I suspect this last part is really what it's all about...

Uh, not quite. In order to qualify for the voucher your kid must be attending a failing school and the family must meet income thresholds. High income earners will not qualify for vouchers.

[okie52]

The problem I have with charter schools is that the best ones are usually lottery based. So it's a crap shoot whether your kid gets into a decent charter school. While some may see this as the fairest solution, it definitely isn't a solution to our public school problems.

You also have to realize that the charter schools are selective with respect to parents who actually care about education and will go through the process of trying to get their kids into charter schools. I think this accounts for their improved performance much more than anything dealing with teachers or faculty.


As for vouchers, if someone could convince me that a voucher would fund a decent private education I'd go for it. I suspect it would actually do more harm than good. Some kids would be stuck in even worse public schools. Others would be stuck in whatever crappy private schools the voucher would pay for. Some upper middle class parents would now be able to subsidize their kids education and send them to Casady or Heritage Hall. (And don't think that these schools would want the voucher to cover the full cost!) The rich would still be sending their kids to Casady but now get subsidized for it.

I suspect this last part is really what it's all about...

Many Blacks have supported vouchers as a way to get out of crappy schools in their area.

I have no problem with a tax payer (rich or poor) choosing a school that they think will best educate their kids. Of course, I'm using the word "tax payer" so that may eliminate a number of applicants.

[okie52]

Uh, not quite. In order to qualify for the voucher your kid must be attending a failing school and the family must meet income thresholds. High income earners will not qualify for vouchers.

That sucks.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

That sucks.

It sucks for me because I'm sure I'm over the income threshold. Maybe if I give Jindal a nice donation to his Presidential campaign fund he'll help me out. This is Louisiana after all.

[okie52]

It sucks for me because I'm sure I'm over the income threshold. Maybe if I give Jindal a nice donation to his Presidential campaign fund he'll help me out. This is Louisiana after all.

You're a tax payer and you will get screwed while many that don't pay taxes will get the benefit...go figure.

[jkjsooner]

Uh, not quite. In order to qualify for the voucher your kid must be attending a failing school and the family must meet income thresholds. High income earners will not qualify for vouchers.

I don't doubt that that is the case in Louisiana but I don't trust that it would be the case everywhere. Many of the Republican plans that have been proposed simply give vouchers to everyone.


Many Blacks have supported vouchers as a way to get out of crappy schools in their area.

Yes, and to those I would say be careful what you ask for. If everyone qualifies for a voucher it will separate the classes even more. If they gave me a voucher and if I could add a little bit on top of it to make sure my kid could go to a school that the poor could not afford, I'd do it.

I believe this has been the experience of Sweden.


I have no problem with a tax payer (rich or poor) choosing a school that they think will best educate their kids. Of course, I'm using the word "tax payer" so that may eliminate a number of applicants.

I don't have a problem with choice as long as everyone really has a choice at a decent school. I just don't think this would be the case if vouchers are available to everyone.

[okie52]

I don't doubt that that is the case in Louisiana but I don't trust that it would be the case everywhere. Many of the Republican plans that have been proposed simply give vouchers to everyone.



Yes, and to those I would say be careful what you ask for. If everyone qualifies for a voucher it will separate the classes even more. If they gave me a voucher and if I could add a little bit on top of it to make sure my kid could go to a school that the poor could not afford, I'd do it.

I believe this has been the experience of Sweden.



I don't have a problem with choice as long as everyone really has a choice at a decent school. I just don't think this would be the case if vouchers are available to everyone.

I wouldn't really care if the poor could afford to go to school with my kids as long as the academics were good. Same goes for whether it was parochial or secular.


As to choices they would have better choices than they have now. Probably more private schools would develop and less need for public schools.

[jkjsooner]

I wouldn't really care if the poor could afford to go to school with my kids as long as the academics were good. Same goes for whether it was parochial or secular.

But you can't generally separate the academic quality from socioeconomic status. Most likely, if you move your kids to a school that the poor can't afford you're going to end up in a better school. You may not care that your kid has poor classmates but if that impacts his/her education then you will.

Even forgetting the issue of the poor, all you have to do is look at our charter schools to see a potential problem with the full on voucher system. Everyone wants into the better charter schools and it's usually a crapshoot (lottery, etc.) to get in.

With a voucher system to private schools, if people aren't paying a little extra you're going to have the same problem. How do you think people are going to resolve that problem? They're going to pay their way in by going to a school that charges a little more than the voucher covers.

There is an outstanding charter school very near where I live. Teacher's and admin's kids get in automatically as do younger siblings of existing students. Generally, that leaves only a handful of spots open for hundreds of applicants. Dontcha think I'd throw in a little extra tuition to get my kid in automatically?

[jkjsooner]

In the long run the big winners of a voucher system (one where all students get vouchers) won't be the parents who send their kids to private schools. It will be the private schools themselves.

Can you imagine the dollar signs schools like Heritage Hall would see? You want to talk about tuition inflation!

[pphilfran]

I don't know what to think about the subject...there is both good and bad...

Whatever the case, our current system isn't cutting it...

[okie52]

But you can't generally separate the academic quality from socioeconomic status. Most likely, if you move your kids to a school that the poor can't afford you're going to end up in a better school. You may not care that your kid has poor classmates but if that impacts his/her education then you will.

Even forgetting the issue of the poor, all you have to do is look at our charter schools to see a potential problem with the full on voucher system. Everyone wants into the better charter schools and it's usually a crapshoot (lottery, etc.) to get in.

With a voucher system to private schools, if people aren't paying a little extra you're going to have the same problem. How do you think people are going to resolve that problem? They're going to pay their way in by going to a school that charges a little more than the voucher covers.

There is an outstanding charter school very near where I live. Teacher's and admin's kids get in automatically as do younger siblings of existing students. Generally, that leaves only a handful of spots open for hundreds of applicants. Dontcha think I'd throw in a little extra tuition to get my kid in automatically?

You may very well pay extra money to get into a better school. But I don't think it will be a little extra money if you are going to send your kid to Casady or Heritage Hall. Maybe McGuinness with a Catholic discount and a voucher would be affordable. I certainly knew kids that were rather poor but the parents made the commitment to send them to McGuinness and they had 6-7 kids.

I don't really think "poor" means a kid will do worse in school as much as it is parental involvement with the child. Now it probably stands to reason that poor kids will have usually have less parental involvement and/or an inferior educational background due to their environment at home but I don't know how that will be corrected (with or without vouchers).

If vouchers come along you may see more lower cost private schools competing with public schools for students. I would think academic performance would be a primary determinant of where parents enroll their kids.

[okie52]

In the long run the big winners of a voucher system (one where all students get vouchers) won't be the parents who send their kids to private schools. It will be the private schools themselves.

Can you imagine the dollar signs schools like Heritage Hall would see? You want to talk about tuition inflation!

Have you seen the tuition costs at Heritage or Casady? A $5-6,000 voucher isn't going to cause a mass enrollment when you have tuition costs that are $16-20,000 per child and those costs don't reflect book costs and lunches.

[Midtowner]

McGuinness (when I went) had a work-study program. Students who could prove need were able to sweep floors and empty trash after school for full or partial tuition waivers.

[okie52]

McGuinness (when I went) had a work-study program. Students who could prove need were able to sweep floors and empty trash after school for full or partial tuition waivers.

Pretty cool that they offered that. When I was a kid Catholics were on their own planet. They weren't allowed to participate in public school athletics so they had their own conferences for football, basketball, etc... Not a lot of interaction between the public schools and Catholic schools until the late 60s.

[jkjsooner]

Have you seen the tuition costs at Heritage or Casady? A $5-6,000 voucher isn't going to cause a mass enrollment when you have tuition costs that are $16-20,000 per child and those costs don't reflect book costs and lunches.

Where did I say that there was going to be mass enrollment at these schools?

I said that the voucher would lead to tuition inflation at these schools. There's no reason to think that tuition wouldn't increase by something close to the voucher amount.

You're actually making my point for me. The majority of the people who would benefit are either the private schools themselves or those who already send their kids to private schools.

I did say that a few parents who were questioning whether or not they could send their kids to Heritage might do so once they get a voucher. That is, of course, if the tuition isn't increased significantly because of the voucher.


You may very well pay extra money to get into a better school. But I don't think it will be a little extra money if you are going to send your kid to Casady or Heritage Hall.

I was referring to something similar to the charter schools (but private in that the voucher would not cover the entire tuition) that have popped up not an expensive private school.

[jkjsooner]

Pretty cool that they offered that. When I was a kid Catholics were on their own planet. They weren't allowed to participate in public school athletics so they had their own conferences for football, basketball, etc... Not a lot of interaction between the public schools and Catholic schools until the late 60s.

Should be that way with all private schools. There is just too much potential legal but anti-competitive things that can go on at private schools. Do you think Heritage is on a level playing field with other 2A football schools?

Back in the day there was a lot of shady stuff going on at Asher in baseball. Whether the school or boosters cheated was debatable, but even the coach admitted that kids' families moved to Asher so that they could play ball there. His argument was that he couldn't actually stop them from doing so. In the private school's case, you don't have school districts so they can do the same thing without the family even moving at all.

When I lived in DC I remembered that none of the public athletic associations allowed private schools to play. Can you imagine Oak Hill Academy, DeMatha, or Montrose Christian playing public schools? Given, those schools might do some things (scholarships, etc.) that may not be allowed under OSSAA rules.

[okie52]

Should be that way with all private schools. There is just too much potential legal but anti-competitive things that can go on at private schools. Do you think Heritage is on a level playing field with other 2A football schools?

Back in the day there was a lot of shady stuff going on at Asher in baseball. Whether the school or boosters cheated was debatable, but even the coach admitted that kids' families moved to Asher so that they could play ball there. His argument was that he couldn't actually stop them from doing so. In the private school's case, you don't have school districts so they can do the same thing without the family even moving at all.

When I lived in DC I remembered that none of the public athletic associations allowed private schools to play. Can you imagine Oak Hill Academy, DeMatha, or Montrose Christian playing public schools? Given, those schools might do some things (scholarships, etc.) that may not be allowed under OSSAA rules.

I don't really have a problem if the put the private schools in their own conferences.

Jenks and Union have a lot of kids move into their district for football, though. I remember when Ardmore was a 5A power in the 80's and 90's and kids would show up there from outlying communities. Now they end up at Plainview.

[okie52]

Where did I say that there was going to be mass enrollment at these schools?

I said that the voucher would lead to tuition inflation at these schools. There's no reason to think that tuition wouldn't increase by something close to the voucher amount.

You're actually making my point for me. The majority of the people who would benefit are either the private schools themselves or those who already send their kids to private schools.

I did say that a few parents who were questioning whether or not they could send their kids to Heritage might do so once they get a voucher. That is, of course, if the tuition isn't increased significantly because of the voucher.



I was referring to something similar to the charter schools (but private in that the voucher would not cover the entire tuition) that have popped up not an expensive private school.

I doubt Heritage or Casady would see a tuition hike...if so it wouldn't be much. They are too far removed from what a voucher could do for additional enrollment.

I don't know about making your point for you. I was saying you would see more low cost private schools to compete with public ones. There might even be little difference in cost between apublic and low cost private school. But we're not talking about private schools that would compete with Casady or HH, either, but still may be better than the public option.

[jkjsooner]

I doubt Heritage or Casady would see a tuition hike...if so it wouldn't be much. They are too far removed from what a voucher could do for additional enrollment.

I don't know about making your point for you.

One of my points was that vouchers aren't going to make private schools (at least most existing ones) more available to anyone other than those who were already in private schools or those who were financially borderline candidates.

If vouchers trigger an increase of new lower cost private schools, there's no reason to believe that the tuition for these will all be limited to the voucher amount. There will probably be a range of options for those who want to add a little more of their own money. There's no reason to think that those with some means won't use these options either to keep their kids away from the crackhoe children or to just to send them to a school with a few more financial means. This will increase socioeconomic segregation.

You also brought up a good point about the differential between a private school tuition and common voucher amounts. Schools like Heritage Hall aren't rolling in the money. Most are non-profit. If they charge $20k per year it's because it costs that much to provide that level of education. If a voucher is only $5k per year what kind of school do you think that will pay for?

[Position Limit]

You're a tax payer and you will get screwed while many that don't pay taxes will get the benefit...go figure.

dude you are an embarassing cliche. what's it like?

[okie52]

dude you are an embarassing cliche. what's it like?

Swallowed your pablum this morning, didn't you?

[TitoMorelli]

Swallowed your pablum this morning, didn't you?

Uh, I don't think that was pablum.