Must read piece on Fast and Furious

[diverdog]

I got this off another website and it is really interesting.









It's a long piece, but if you guys want more intelligent background on this disaster, it's required reading:

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...uth/?hpt=hp_t2 (http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/?hpt=hp_t2)

The interesting take here is that there was never a policy of gun-walking in the first place. This is made-up fantasy. The problem was, according to this piece, an obstructionist AZ US Attorney's office unwilling to allow arrests or to help the ATF's Pheonix Group VII build cases against against the trafficking suspects. It was only after the Border Patrol agent's death that US Attorney's office authorized the arrest of the suspects.

Compounding the issue is downright insubordination within the ATF and agents with personal vendettas who were willing to target the leader of PG7 and other ATF management.

Then throw into the mix that the FBI was actually funneling money to 'Fast and Furious' top suspects who were actually FBI informants.

With laziness and insubordination within the ATF, a head-scratching refusal within the US Attorney's office to allow the ATF to arrest gun-trafficking suspects, and the FBI not working with the ATF, it's no wonder why AG Holder wants to cover up the mess (after all, these are all DoJ functions), but not for the reasons GOP House members suspect.

What's hypocritical in all this is folks like Issa and other Republicans who claim to want gun trafficking to Mexico stopped, but yet are so beholden to the NRA they won't authorize legislation to create an electronic database of gun sales nor apparently support any sort of federal gun trafficking statute. As it stands now, there is no federal law specifically criminalizing gun trafficking.

[pphilfran]

Does anybody know what the hell is going on?

Were they letting guns walk or not...does Holder know what he is doing?

A whole bunch of cya going on...

[diverdog]

Does anybody know what the hell is going on?

Were they letting guns walk or not...does Holder know what he is doing?

A whole bunch of cya going on...

Man it is a mess. But they are right about one thing the NRA bears some responsibility here because of the lax gun laws they defend we are selling thousands of weapons to Mexico that are killing a lot of people. 8000 gun shops on the border with Mexico. That is criminal.

[pphilfran]

Man it is a mess. But they are right about one thing the NRA bears some responsibility here because of the lax gun laws they defend we are selling thousands of weapons to Mexico that are killing a lot of people. 8000 gun shops on the border with Mexico. That is criminal.

There should be a couple of days waiting period on all gun sales...

That ain't the answer but it would give time for better checks...and a chance to do a double check on the non dealer buying a hundred guns...

[olevetonahill]

Man it is a mess. But they are right about one thing the NRA bears some responsibility here because of the lax gun laws they defend we are selling thousands of weapons to Mexico that are killing a lot of people. 8000 gun shops on the border with Mexico. That is criminal.

Dude for the most part I like ya. But you Going High over the fence with this one,
The ATF and Fed Gov, **** up big time and you still try to defend em by Blaming some one else IE: the NRA, Then By Extension ME since Im a Paid up Life Member of the NRA

Give it a break, The NRA isn t at fault here Its real simple , The Current LAWS were Not being enforced in fact they were being circumvented to help those guns walk.

[diverdog]

Dude for the most part I like ya. But you Going High over the fence with this one,
The ATF and Fed Gov, **** up big time and you still try to defend em by Blaming some one else IE: the NRA

Give it a break, The NRA isn t at fault here Its real simple , The Current LAWS were Not being enforced in fact they were being circumvented to help those guns walk.

Olevet read the article. They could not prosecute because multiple gun sales and straw purchases are not illegal in
Arizona. Tens of thousands of guns are going into Mexico every year being purchase the exact same way. This is a failure of our entire government.









"Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn."

[Turd_Ferguson]

Still deflecting away from Holder I see...

[olevetonahill]

Diver, Read what I wrote, Had they ENFORCED ALL CURRENT laws thos straw purchaser's would have been prosecuted NOT encouraged by the FED.

They were wantin to try to track em AFTER they got there, Why dint they just enforce the current laws and STOP em from ever gettin there.
Go **** on some one else s Leg

[diverdog]

Diver, Read what I wrote, Had they ENFORCED ALL CURRENT laws thos straw purchaser's would have been prosecuted NOT encouraged by the FED.

They were wantin to try to track em AFTER they got there, Why dint they just enforce the current laws and STOP em from ever gettin there.
Go **** on some one else s Leg

Olevet read the article. It is from Fortune magazine not some left wing site. What we have been told about this case is not true.

[olevetonahill]

Olevet read the article. It is from Fortune magazine not some left wing site. What we have been told about this case is not true.

Ok Let me be very clear. I DGAS, But YOU statin the NRA is to blame just shows how far off you are my friend
I really haven't weighed in on this either way till you said that.

I will say and will continue to say there are enough Laws on the ****in books that if the Feds had Enforced them rather than play cute this **** wouldnt have ever happened

[diverdog]

Ok Let me be very clear. I DGAS, But YOU statin the NRA is to blame just shows how far off you are my friend
I really haven't weighed in on this either way till you said that.

I will say and will continue to say there are enough Laws on the ****in books that if the Feds had Enforced them rather than play cute this **** wouldnt have ever happened

Jeezus you are thick. The article does not exonerate Holder. In fact it makes DOJ, ATF, Congress, Issa and the NRA look pretty damn bad.

Here:


This was not the view of federal prosecutors. In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley's judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. "[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime." (Arizona federal prosecutors referred requests for comment to the Justice Department, which declined to make officials available. Hurley noted in an e-mail, "I am not able to comment on what I understand to be an ongoing investigation/prosecution.*I am precluded by federal regulation, DOJ policy, the rules of professional conduct, and court order from talking with you about this matter." Cunningham's attorney also declined to comment.)
It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, *sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn't necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn't mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize..


Prosecutors repeatedly rebuffed Voth's requests. After examining one suspect's garbage, agents learned he was on food stamps yet had plunked down more than $300,000 for 476 firearms in six months. Voth asked if the ATF could arrest him for fraudulently accepting public assistance when he was spending such huge sums. Prosecutor Hurley said no. In another instance, a young jobless suspect paid more than $10,000 for a 50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle. According to Voth, Hurley told the agents they lacked proof that he hadn't bought the gun for himself.
Voth grew deeply frustrated. In August 2010, after the ATF in Texas confiscated 80 guns—63 of them purchased in Arizona by the Fast and Furious suspects— Voth got an e-mail from a colleague there: "Are you all planning to stop some of these guys any time soon? That's a lot of guns…Are you just letting these guns walk?"
Voth responded with barely suppressed rage: "Have I offended you in some way? Because I am very offended by your e-mail. Define walk? Without Probable Cause and concurrence from the USAO [U.S. Attorney's Office] it is highway robbery if we take someone's property." He then recounted the situation with the unemployed suspect who had bought the sniper rifle. "We conducted a field interview and after calling the AUSA [assistant U.S. Attorney] he said we did not have sufficient PC [probable cause] to take the firearm so our suspect drove home with said firearm in his car…any ideas on how we could not let that firearm 'walk'"?
Voth believed the wiretap could help bring the case to a swift and successful close. On March 5, 2010, ten days before their first wiretap was set to begin, Voth was in Washington, D.C., to brief ATF brass and Justice Department officials on Fast and Furious. The response was overwhelmingly positive. A senior ATF attorney wrote Voth, "This is exactly the types of cases ATF should be doing with a wire, it is fantastic.".

Vet the laws on the books are so weak that they could not stop the guns. Over 68000 guns have been captured in Mexico that have been linked to US gun dealers. And that is just the guns they captured. When the ATF asked that bulk purchases be reported the NRA filed lawsuits. We have 8000 gun dealers on the US border. Phoenix has 853 firearms dealers. Don't you think this might be a problem? You can buy as many long rifles in Arizona as you can afford and transfer them. Do you think all those AK-47 are going to US citizens. The simple fact is that the NRA will not allow a single restriction on gun sales to get through in congress or many states. I am all for gun ownership but when we allow defacto gun running on the US border then there are issues with the laws on the books. And the reason the laws on the books are so weak has a lot to do with the NRA.

http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-68-000-weapons-seized-mexico-since-2007-traced-to-u-s


(http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-68-000-weapons-seized-mexico-since-2007-traced-to-u-s)

[rock on sooner]

Being discussed on CNN right now!

[rock on sooner]

Rep. Mica is a dickwad!

[soonercruiser]

Man it is a mess. But they are right about one thing the NRA bears some responsibility here because of the lax gun laws they defend we are selling thousands of weapons to Mexico that are killing a lot of people. 8000 gun shops on the border with Mexico. That is criminal.

Diver,
If the DOJ and ATF could apply the law in a way that requires an "valid" ID to buy a gun....so they can do a background check on the purchaser, and keep track of who is buying what....that would help.
But......that's just too close to asking for an ID to prove you are a qualified citizen in order to vote.
So....ain't gonna happen in this administration. They are just hopin' that all the brainless lemmings will continue to get mad at guns....not mad at the gun abusers!

Personally, I am very appreciateive of the NRA!
If it weren't for advocacy groups like them, only the outlaws would have guns!
Sounds like we need to keep the guns out of the hands of the DOJ, FBI, and ATF!

[soonercruiser]

DD,
Your article posted brings up a number of questions....being it is just another "investigative article".....and more inside opinions to add to the comfusion.


By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.

Really? And I supposed that all the valid "Gun shops" were just selling underage kids 20 semi-automatics. Methinks that this is classic illegal gun-running scenerio.....so don't be blaming the good honest gun shop owners that follow the law. When I purchased my hand gun, I had to show two valid IDs, fill out forms that came under government scrutiny, and wait a while. That is generally how a lawful purchase works.


Indeed, a six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. Several, including Voth, are speaking out for the first time.

First of all she would be claiming to do a more thorough investigation in 6 months than Congress has been doing investigating for 18 months!

6 months?
Interviewed 39 people?
How many people has Congress investigated?

2,000 pages of "Confidential" ATF documents???
How did she get those when Congress probably didn't???
Why would ATF insiders cooperate with her, and not cooperate with Congress to get things in the open?
If these so-called insiders aren't honest enough to come out of the closet, then they probably aren't honest enough to be believed......unless they say what you want to hear.

She talks about how the gun running investigation wasn't designed to let guns "walk"....and even uses the one guy to say there was no such program as "Fast & Furious.
We know this is not the truth, based on many internal documents and e-mail between ATF and DOJ.
*And, furthermore, she conflists that previous article text with this....


Ten weeks later, an ATF agent named John Dodson, whom Voth had supervised, made startling allegations on the CBS Evening News. He charged that his supervisors had intentionally allowed American firearms to be trafficked—a tactic known as "walking guns"—to Mexican drug cartels. Dodson claimed that supervisors repeatedly ordered him not to seize weapons because they wanted to track the guns into the hands of criminal ringleaders. The program showed internal e-mails from Voth, which purportedly revealed agents locked in a dispute over the deadly strategy. The guns permitted to flow to criminals, the program charged, played a role in Terry's death.

This in fact, is some of the documents that refute her previous statement.

Later on she states....

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

And, a heck of a lot more than 5 law enforcement agents have testified that....maybe not the intended tactic.....but high-up supervisors did keep the field agents from confiscating the weapons in question.
SO! IT WAS HAPPENING! An intended tactic.....or morphed into it....either way.
Somebody is at fault?
Who? Who is covering for who?

I failed to go on any further, as she is all over the place with what she found out, someone's word against another's word....etc.

The only real info that I got out the article parts I read were, they are a bunch of bungling idiots!
The ATF, Justice, and FBI still don't know how to work together.
And there are as many opinions about who's at fault, as there are "agents in the field".

And, working on reasonable gun purchase tracking llegislation was not at the top of the administration's agenda.
With The $1 Trillion (now $2.4 Trillion) for Obamacare, and 2 years of effort.....there isn't enough $$ or political capital left to deal with securing the nation's borders from illegal immigration or gun-running. It just isn't important enough.

Blaming the NRA for the depts. of the federal gobment not working together is absurd.
Blame the idiots in the government! I wouldn't trust them now either.

[olevetonahill]

Jeezus you are thick. The article does not exonerate Holder. In fact it makes DOJ, ATF, Congress, Issa and the NRA look pretty damn bad.


Diver, Cool yer jets jes a sec, IM the one thats THICK" Ive been tryin to be civil with you because you are one of the few Libs that are normally civil.
So lets not digress to name callin ok?

Now one MORE time , I DGAS about Holder or Fast an Furious,Understand? Im NOT going to read an Article about it I DGAS who wrote it or where it was published.

I will say again that there are More than enough laws on the Books that If they were enforced properly that this gun **** to Messico wouldnt happen on the scale that it is

One Thing I dont undersatnd is the Fact that the Druggies want tall these weapons , They have more money than God. Why do they pissant around buyin guns from individuals here? Hell they could have large shipments of any kind of weapon they wanted Fully Auto shipped in from Russia , China or a lot more places
Why **** with the Semi Autos they can get here at so much more cost?

[diverdog]

Diver, Cool yer jets jes a sec, IM the one thats THICK" Ive been tryin to be civil with you because you are one of the few Libs that are normally civil.
So lets not digress to name callin ok?

Now one MORE time , I DGAS about Holder or Fast an Furious,Understand? Im NOT going to read an Article about it I DGAS who wrote it or where it was published.

I will say again that there are More than enough laws on the Books that If they were enforced properly that this gun **** to Messico wouldnt happen on the scale that it is

One Thing I dont undersatnd is the Fact that the Druggies want tall these weapons , They have more money than God. Why do they pissant around buyin guns from individuals here? Hell they could have large shipments of any kind of weapon they wanted Fully Auto shipped in from Russia , China or a lot more places
Why **** with the Semi Autos they can get here at so much more cost?

Sorry vet didn't mean to offend you .....just trying to be funny with the thick comment. I enjoy your post and appreciate your humor. In some ways you remind me of my tobacco chewing orange loving Okie State dad.....whoops I crossed a line. LOL

Really the biggest problem is the war on drugs. If we don't have drug users then we don't have cartels and therefore we don't have murder inc.

What does DGAS mean? I am almost afraid to ask.

[diverdog]

Diver,
If the DOJ and ATF could apply the law in a way that requires an "valid" ID to buy a gun....so they can do a background check on the purchaser, and keep track of who is buying what....that would help.
But......that's just too close to asking for an ID to prove you are a qualified citizen in order to vote.
So....ain't gonna happen in this administration. They are just hopin' that all the brainless lemmings will continue to get mad at guns....not mad at the gun abusers!

Personally, I am very appreciateive of the NRA!
If it weren't for advocacy groups like them, only the outlaws would have guns!
Sounds like we need to keep the guns out of the hands of the DOJ, FBI, and ATF!

Cruiser:

First of all thank you for the well thought out comments. Wish you were like this all the time.

I do not dislike the NRA on the whole. Right now I am applying for a grant to start a Boy Scout Venture Crew whose sole focus is shooting sports. They are the premier organization when it comes to firearms safety and training. The guy who is helping me get the grant was the former national president of the NRA.

The issue I have with the NRA is on the political end. They see every gun law as a slippery slope sort of deal. If we restrict the number of firearms that can be purchased then (in their view) we can restrict firearms sales. I disagree with this logic. There is no reason someone should be able to buy 20 semi-automatic rifles in one purchase or hundreds in a year. You know when that happens then someone who has bad intentions is getting guns they should not have in the first place.

What you are missing is that the cartels are paying citizens who can buy guns legally. have them purchase the guns and then they turn around and give the guns to the cartels. This is what a straw purchase is all about and it is legal in Arizona. (I have bought a few dozen guns in my life so I am pretty familiar with the background checks.) The background checks are not stopping these purchases and subsequent transfers of guns to the cartels. So the best way to stem the flow of gun traffic would be to put a clamp down on the number of guns one can legally purchase in a year and stop straw purchases.

I do not disagree with you that this operation was messed up and we need to hold people in the ATF, DOJ, FBI and State of Arizona accountable. Eric Holders biggest crime is that he may have lied to congress but that is about it. The rest of it is a botched investigation that should get a bunch of people fired. My problem with Issa's investigation is that it was nowhere as thorough as this article. That is why we need a special prosecutor or council to investigate all of it.

As for Holder he will probably be held in contempt of congress but so what. Nothing will happen to him and by the time the civil part works it way through the courts it will be 2014 or later and this ordeal will be long forgotten about by the public. And to be honest the public really doesn't follow technical cases like this very well. Holder should do us all a favor and resign and this goes away.

Finally, the one big issue I have not seen addressed is the absolute corruption on the other side of the border in the Mexican government. They are going to have to deal with the cartels like Columbia did and cut the head of the hydra before it eats them alive.

[olevetonahill]

Diver , How old are you? Do you remember before we had seat belt Laws?What was it early 80s when they passed the law requiring their use? Anyway, That was pushed by us with the Promise that we would never be pulled over just because we wernt wearing one But If you were pulled over for say speeding and dint have it on, you could get a ticket. Now They enforce that law as hard as the DUI laws if not harder.

In other words Bro once something is passed it dont take long before that simple yet reasonable law is changed and given more teeth.

Take all these recent mass shootings, SOMETHING Needs to be done. Yet IM not in favor of More Gun laws.. In other words I dont trust the ****ing Gov.

[diverdog]

Diver , How old are you? Do you remember before we had seat belt Laws?What was it early 80s when they passed the law requiring their use? Anyway, That was pushed by us with the Promise that we would never be pulled over just because we wernt wearing one But If you were pulled over for say speeding and dint have it on, you could get a ticket. Now They enforce that law as hard as the DUI laws if not harder.

In other words Bro once something is passed it dont take long before that simple yet reasonable law is changed and given more teeth.

Take all these recent mass shootings, SOMETHING Needs to be done. Yet IM not in favor of More Gun laws.. In other words I dont trust the ****ing Gov.

I am 53 and it sucks because I am pretty young at heart but my body is paying for the sins of my youth.

Vet our seat belt laws saved a lot of people lives. Not all laws are bad. But I understand your point.

You should know I love to shoot so in general I am not in favor of more gun laws. But I am also not in favor of supplying Mexico with guns.

[jkjsooner]

Doesn't law enforcement often do the exact same thing when it comes to enforcement of drugs or stolen goods? How often have we heard them monitoring drug pipelines trying to trace it back to the bigger guys?

Is that illegal or is there something legally unique about this case.

[olevetonahill]

Doesn't law enforcement often do the exact same thing when it comes to enforcement of drugs or stolen goods? How often have we heard them monitoring drug pipelines trying to trace it back to the bigger guys?

Is that illegal or is there something legally unique about this case.

You been watchin TeeVee again?

[OULenexaman]

some folks just don't get it.....they just don't see the real hidden picture behind the whole F&F operation.

[cleller]

Dang that Holder. He's refusing to turn over documents that would vindicate him just to protect the NRA!

[olevetonahill]

Dang that Holder. He's refusing to turn over documents that would vindicate him just to protect the NRA!
He's such a bastage.

[sooner_born_1960]

I haven't followed this near close enough. But can someone tell me if the firearm purchases were legal, or not?

[olevetonahill]

I haven't followed this near close enough. But can someone tell me if the firearm purchases were legal, or not?

I;m like you in not following it real close. But I believe the buys were legal. It was what was done AFTER that broke the law.

[sooner_born_1960]

The re-selling?

[olevetonahill]

The re-selling?Think so, Not sure tho.

Think it was the fact that folks who could leaglly Buy em did so then sold em to folk who couldnt .The Feds just watched and tried to see where they went and Lost track of em and dint bust anyone .
At least thats what I get out of all this carp.

[cleller]

Eh, I think it is the age old difference in philosophy and ego between the feds and locals. Feds, and some high ego locals are always wanting to go after Mr. Big, cut off the head. The problem with that, in MY opinion, is there is always someone else ready to take on the challenge of being Mr. Big.

The other side of the coin, is go after the people transacting the business. They are much easier targets, much more likely to rat out others, and much easier to prosecute. I've always thought this had good results, and worked much quicker. The NYC turnaround years ago was a good example, it can be used anywhere. Go where the action is, arrest every bad guy for anything you can, make multiple undercover buy and busts. Pretty quickly the number of people willing to go into that hotbed to do business drys up.

[diverdog]

Think so, Not sure tho.

Think it was the fact that folks who could leaglly Buy em did so then sold em to folk who couldnt .The Feds just watched and tried to see where they went and Lost track of em and dint bust anyone .
At least thats what I get out of all this carp.

Vet:

The reselling or transfering firearms to another person in Arizona is legal. Straw purchases are legal. This gets back to my point what laws on the books do they enforce. As far ad I can tell you cannot do anything until a crime happens.

[olevetonahill]

Vet:

The reselling or transfering firearms to another person in Arizona is legal. Straw purchases are legal. This gets back to my point what laws on the books do they enforce. As far ad I can tell you cannot do anything until a crime happens.

That where yer wrong my Friend , Its Illegal to knowingly purchase a weapon with the intent to transfer that weapon to some one who cant legally purchase it.

[sooner_born_1960]

That where yer wrong my Friend , Its Illegal to knowingly purchase a weapon with the intent to transfer that weapon to some one who cant legally purchase it.
Vet, I imagine the US attorney had the biggest problem with proving "knowingly".
They have to prove the buyer had some prior relationship this the person selling the guns. And that they conspired to circumvent the law.

[diverdog]

That where yer wrong my Friend , Its Illegal to knowingly purchase a weapon with the intent to transfer that weapon to some one who cant legally purchase it.

But you can transfer it to someone who is legal and then they can catty the guns across the border. There is no law in the code against straw purchases.


. ATF Form 4473 is a Federal form, so the judge turned to Federal law to find out what it takes to falsify it. Title 18, United States Code, § 922 (a)(6) forbids gun buyers from making “any false or fictitious oral or written statement...likely to deceive with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter .” Among other things, dealers can’t deliver guns to felons, illegal aliens, juveniles, the adjudicated mentally ill and nonresidents (to keep local laws from being circumvented, persons are forbidden from buying guns outside their State of residence.) However, the law is silent about “straw purchase,” the practice of buying guns for others. There’s nothing in “the provisions of this Chapter” that forbids a dealer from selling guns to someone who intends to turn them over to a legally qualified possessor.

[cleller]

Some of the items in the article convince me the whole thing was a **** up. The Voth guy sounds like a good guy, but he's lost touch with the goals. These agents had gun shop owners calling them all the time about people buying lots of rifles, the agents told them to sell them.

Take the bit with the crankster and the assault rifles. He talks in an email about how taking the rifles away would be highway robbery, can't do it. Not legal.

What's worse is to let this criminal walk off with them. In that case, you haul the guy down, and turn the rifles into your property room. You tell him you know exactly who he is buying the rifles for, and how long you are going to lock him up when you're done with you investigation. Because he was a no-good criminal, you can probably book him for something if you've kept your eyes open. You finish up by warning him he'd better come thru with some names about who his supplier is, then remind him they are probably going to kill him for losing the rifles. Then, hand him his property receipt for the rifles, tell him to get a lawyer if he wants them back, and to keep his head down.

[dwarthog]

Dang that Holder. He's refusing to turn over documents that would vindicate him just to protect the NRA!

I believe he turned over some 7600 pages, according the DOJ anyway.

Here's an example. Verbose...

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k19/dwarthog/issa-redacted.jpg