Don't Rock the Vote

[SicEmBaylor]

With 24 hours left until the Oklahoma primary, some of you may feel compelled by civic duty or social pressure to exercise your right to vote. You may be concerned that choosing not to vote makes you a bad citizen – allow me to emancipate you of those concerns. The wise men who founded our Republic believed voting was the best means for preserving liberty; voting was seen as a means to an end and not an end unto itself. Our Founding Fathers subscribed no degree of civic virtue to the act of voting without careful consideration and a familiarity with different offices, the candidates, and the issues. Few if any ever envisioned, let alone supported, the degree of suffrage Americans both expect and take for granted. Most of them would likely have been hostile and dismayed by contemporary levels of voter access.

Our system of government was designed, in large part, to mitigate the evils of majority rule. The ability to vote was restricted by the best criteria available at the time for judging a man's competency with the ballot; for example, property ownership was almost always a necessity. Today, property ownership is no longer an effective means for judging an individual's competency. I have long been of the opinion that passage of a very basic and rudimentary 8th-grade level civics test should be required of anyone wishing to vote. This serves a dual purpose in requiring an individual to demonstrate some degree of competency and ensuring they at least know how to read.

Which brings me back to the issue of civic virtue....a well trained chimp can be taught to enter a voting booth and randomly select a slate of candidates. Does this make the chimp a good citizen? Of course it does not. And, yet, this is essentially what a disturbing number of Americans do every election in every state of the Republic from coast to coast. This is not the definition of a good citizen despite what MTV, journalists, teachers, and candidates themselves tell us. If an individual has a competent understanding of the functions of government, the differences between the various offices up for election, the issues involved, and the candidates running then that individual has a civic duty to vote. He or she has a responsibility to his or her fellow citizens to show up and make informed (but not necessarily correct) decisions. The responsibility of the citizen who does not have this understanding is to stay home. There is absolutely no reason to feel ashamed for understanding one's own limitations and making a responsible choice to abstain. These individuals should not be made to feel guilty by society. In the end, this individual is being a much better citizen than the bozo off the street who enters a voting booth because P. Diddy encouraged him to do so.

So, I make this plea: If you are an informed citizen then make the choice to show up on Tuesday and vote if you have not already done so. If you are not then make the equally responsible choice to stay home.

[cleller]

"Don't tip the vote over-"

[ictsooner7]

With 24 hours left until the Oklahoma primary, some of you may feel compelled by civic duty or social pressure to exercise your right to vote. You may be concerned that choosing not to vote makes you a bad citizen – allow me to emancipate you of those concerns. The wise men who founded our Republic believed voting was the best means for preserving liberty; voting was seen as a means to an end and not an end unto itself. Our Founding Fathers subscribed no degree of civic virtue to the act of voting without careful consideration and a familiarity with different offices, the candidates, and the issues. Few if any ever envisioned, let alone supported, the degree of suffrage Americans both expect and take for granted. Most of them would likely have been hostile and dismayed by contemporary levels of voter access.

Our system of government was designed, in large part, to mitigate the evils of majority rule. The ability to vote was restricted by the best criteria available at the time for judging a man's competency with the ballot; for example, property ownership was almost always a necessity. Today, property ownership is no longer an effective means for judging an individual's competency. I have long been of the opinion that passage of a very basic and rudimentary 8th-grade level civics test should be required of anyone wishing to vote. This serves a dual purpose in requiring an individual to demonstrate some degree of competency and ensuring they at least know how to read.

Which brings me back to the issue of civic virtue....a well trained chimp can be taught to enter a voting booth and randomly select a slate of candidates. Does this make the chimp a good citizen? Of course it does not. And, yet, this is essentially what a disturbing number of Americans do every election in every state of the Republic from coast to coast. This is not the definition of a good citizen despite what MTV, journalists, teachers, and candidates themselves tell us. If an individual has a competent understanding of the functions of government, the differences between the various offices up for election, the issues involved, and the candidates running then that individual has a civic duty to vote. He or she has a responsibility to his or her fellow citizens to show up and make informed (but not necessarily correct) decisions. The responsibility of the citizen who does not have this understanding is to stay home. There is absolutely no reason to feel ashamed for understanding one's own limitations and making a responsible choice to abstain. These individuals should not be made to feel guilty by society. In the end, this individual is being a much better citizen than the bozo off the street who enters a voting booth because P. Diddy encouraged him to do so.

So, I make this plea: If you are an informed citizen then make the choice to show up on Tuesday and vote if you have not already done so. If you are not then make the equally responsible choice to stay home.


SSSSssoooooooo.................you're advocating people not exercise the right, well what SHOULD be a right, on which our democracy was founded? Our democracy was not founded to

“Our system of government was designed, in large part, to mitigate the evils of majority rule.”

Quite the opposite. Our country was founded by men who wanted to be in control of their destiny, as long as they were the only ones who could vote ie: property owners.

Now you are bringing our founding fathers into the rights desire to limit those who can vote;

“Most of them would likely have been hostile and dismayed by contemporary levels of voter access.”

So much for democracy loving conservatives.

You speak of communism and socialism on here often, what you don’t understand is that you, nor the right, really don’t believe in democracy, you are advocating a position you say you despise, you simply want to be the one choosing who gets to be in power. You want only those who share your opinion to be able to vote and everyone else are subjects. But its ok as long as you’re doing the choosing.

[olevetonahill]

SSSSssoooooooo.................you're advocating people not exercise the right, well what SHOULD be a right, on which our democracy was founded? Our democracy was not founded to

“Our system of government was designed, in large part, to mitigate the evils of majority rule.”

Quite the opposite. Our country was founded by men who wanted to be in control of their destiny, as long as they were the only ones who could vote ie: property owners.

Now you are bringing our founding fathers into the rights desire to limit those who can vote;

“Most of them would likely have been hostile and dismayed by contemporary levels of voter access.”

So much for democracy loving conservatives.

You speak of communism and socialism on here often, what you don’t understand is that you, nor the right, really don’t believe in democracy, you are advocating a position you say you despise, you simply want to be the one choosing who gets to be in power. You want only those who share your opinion to be able to vote and everyone else are subjects. But its ok as long as you’re doing the choosing.

You dont know yer *** from a hole in the ground

[ictsooner7]

You dont know yer *** from a hole in the ground

Yet another thoughtful, carefully prepared rebuttal by olevetonahill that took my points one by one and refuted them by pointing out where my argument is wrong or I am misinformed.

Under sicembaylors system olevetonahill would not be allowed to vote.

[olevetonahill]

Yet another thoughtful, carefully prepared rebuttal by olevetonahill that took my points one by one and refuted them by pointing out where my argument is wrong or I am misinformed.

Under sicembaylors system olevetonahill would not be allowed to vote.

I totally ignored yer post after ya said that Sicem was representative of ALL Conservatives.
Why go any further than simply sayin you dont know ****?

[KantoSooner]

Ict, suggest strongly that you read (reread?) The Federalist Papers, particularly the essays on the dangers of faction and unchecked majority rule, stirring stuff what with all the concern devoted to protecting minority rights. Further, consider that our founding fathers had an excellent opportunity to create a monarchy of the United States. That they did not would seem to be something of an argument against your assumption that those greedy Rich Guys were simply grabbing as much power as possible.

[ictsooner7]

Ict, suggest strongly that you read (reread?) The Federalist Papers, particularly the essays on the dangers of faction and unchecked majority rule, stirring stuff what with all the concern devoted to protecting minority rights. Further, consider that our founding fathers had an excellent opportunity to create a monarchy of the United States. That they did not would seem to be something of an argument against your assumption that those greedy Rich Guys were simply grabbing as much power as possible.

I didnt say a thing about greedy rich guys, you have brought that into the arguement.

What does only property owners being allowed to vote and allowing them to keep slaves say about what they really wanted? If all men are created equal why didn't they free the slaves and let EVERYONE vote? Some founding fathers did want a monarchy, George Washington said no. Why do you need a monarchy when you control who gets to vote for who is in power and who doesn't get to vote?

[C&CDean]

I didnt say a thing about greedy rich guys, you have brought that into the arguement.

What does only property owners being allowed to vote and allowing them to keep slaves say about what they really wanted? If all men are created equal why didn't they free the slaves and let EVERYONE vote? Some founding fathers did want a monarchy, George Washington said no. Why do you need a monarchy when you control who gets to vote for who is in power and who doesn't get to vote?

Are you just being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse?

If you actually read Sicem's diatribe it didn't say anywhere in there that only white conservatives should be able to vote. I semi-agree with him about uninformed people voting. Like me. I'm as uninformed as they come. Not because I'm ignorant like many who vote are, it's just that IDGAS any more.

I still may vote though. I'll vote for whoever the new guy is. I'll also vote pretty much straight party - unless someone from the other side stands out on an issue that I care about. He'll really have to stand out though cause I don't read the paper or watch the CNN/MSNBC/FOX news. If I don't see something/someone stand out on Channel 4 News or SF.com then I won't know a thing about them.

[KantoSooner]

"Quite the opposite. Our country was founded by men who wanted to be in control of their destiny, as long as they were the only ones who could vote ie: property owners."

The quote above is from your original sally. It appeared, to my eye, to label the motives of the founders as being driven by property interests, i.e. money, i.e. the interests of people with money over the interests of those without money, thus, 'Rich Guys'. I'll be more careful to spell out the line of thought more clearly in the future.

I'd suggest a reading list that would, hopefully, give you an appreciation for the breadth of opinion and passion of the various people involved in drafting our founding documents and initiating our governmental principles and practices. The aformentioned Federalist Papers as well as Toqueville's memoirs would be prominent. But I sense that your passions on the topic have rendered a real discussion impossible for the moment. (extra credit: why do I keep repeating the word 'passion'? Correct answer earns you a cookie.)

It's all a sham, the government is run by *******s. We're doomed because we don't hold town hall meetings 24/7. Our democracy is .... imperfect! No compromise is possible. To the barricades!

Now to don my black t-shirt, black jeans and sneakers and go sulk at the mall.

Cheers.

[cleller]

If its any consolation, the truly stupid are probably the least likely to register to vote; and the least likely to manage to get themselves to the proper place to vote.

[marfacowboy]

SSSSssoooooooo.................you're advocating people not exercise the right, well what SHOULD be a right, on which our democracy was founded? Our democracy was not founded to

“Our system of government was designed, in large part, to mitigate the evils of majority rule.”

Quite the opposite. Our country was founded by men who wanted to be in control of their destiny, as long as they were the only ones who could vote ie: property owners.

Ding, ding, ding....we have a winner!
More signs of intelligent life!

[C&CDean]

Really? Where?

[yermom]

Ict, suggest strongly that you read (reread?) The Federalist Papers, particularly the essays on the dangers of faction and unchecked majority rule, stirring stuff what with all the concern devoted to protecting minority rights. Further, consider that our founding fathers had an excellent opportunity to create a monarchy of the United States. That they did not would seem to be something of an argument against your assumption that those greedy Rich Guys were simply grabbing as much power as possible.

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm

[okie52]

Really? Where?

LOL

[Ton Loc]

I agree with sicem -(damn...that's twice this month)

If you're voting and its the first time you've read 99% of the people's names you're voting for - stay home moron.

[badger]

PROTIP: If you don't want to vote in Oklahoma primaries, register as an independent. Only register as a Republican/Democrat if you plan to vote in primaries. If you'd rather not, then just be indy!

[rock on sooner]

Are you just being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse?

If you actually read Sicem's diatribe it didn't say anywhere in there that only white conservatives should be able to vote. I semi-agree with him about uninformed people voting. Like me. I'm as uninformed as they come. Not because I'm ignorant like many who vote are, it's just that IDGAS any more.

I still may vote though. I'll vote for whoever the new guy is. I'll also vote pretty much straight party - unless someone from the other side stands out on an issue that I care about. He'll really have to stand out though cause I don't read the paper or watch the CNN/MSNBC/FOX news. If I don't see something/someone stand out on Channel 4 News or SF.com then I won't know a thing about them.

Dean, since I'm in Iowa, don't know about ch 4 news BUT, if you read the
threads/posts here on SF.com, then you are incredibly well informed! :cheerful:

[C&CDean]

Dean, since I'm in Iowa, don't know about ch 4 news BUT, if you read the
threads/posts here on SF.com, then you are incredibly well informed! :cheerful:

Yup. Reading it here you get EVERY side of each issue. We've got em' that make MSNBC look like religous fanatics all the way to some who make Atilla the Hun look like a pinko fag. I kinda wade through and make my own opinion.

What part of Iowegia?

[badger]

More tips of getting people to NOT vote:

1- Don't mention that there's an election tomorrow. They probably wouldn't have known if they were, in fact, the uninformed voters that you want to stay home.

2- Steal their driver's license. Unless they have other forms of photo ID, you cannot vote in Oklahoma without it.

3- Don't let them register to vote. Seriously, when they see the League of Women Voters at the state fair trying to get them to fill out a form, STEER THEM AWAY! And then, steer them straight into the guy from Colorado that's all like "Are you a registered voter in the state of Oklahoma? Because if you are, I get $5 per signature I get on this petition!" and that will seal the deal. They will NEVER register so that they can always tell those guys from Colorado NO at the state fair.

4- Show them all of your fabulous literature you get bombarded with every primary. DID YOU KNOW SULLIVAN DIDN'T VOTE 600+ TIMES? DID YOU KNOW BRIDENSTEIN HAS A LLAMA FARM FOR TAX CREDIT PURPOSES? DID YOU KNOW SULLY DOESN'T CHAIR COMMITTEES?! DID YOU KNOW BRIDENSTEIN DIDN'T VOTE 33 PERCENT OF THE TIME IN PUBLIC ELECTIONS?!?! Nothing will make them wanna stay away from being registered as a party member (or registered, period) then all of that voter harassment.

Seriously, just stop at No. 1. Don't tell people there's a primary and they'd never know. You won't get that type of luck in a presidential election, but the primary, you're golden. Nobody knows about them. Low voter turnout is a given.

[rock on sooner]

Yup. Reading it here you get EVERY side of each issue. We've got em' that make MSNBC look like religous fanatics all the way to some who make Atilla the Hun look like a pinko fag. I kinda wade through and make my own opinion.

What part of Iowegia?

Des Moines...son is an ISU alum, daughter is a Coe College grad
and now is studying nursing...looking forward to seeing the
Sooners in person in November.

Sometimes, it gets too deep to wade and you have to break out
the scuba gear, though.

[ictsooner7]

More tips of getting people to NOT vote:

1- Don't mention that there's an election tomorrow. They probably wouldn't have known if they were, in fact, the uninformed voters that you want to stay home.

2- Steal their driver's license. Unless they have other forms of photo ID, you cannot vote in Oklahoma without it.

3- Don't let them register to vote. Seriously, when they see the League of Women Voters at the state fair trying to get them to fill out a form, STEER THEM AWAY! And then, steer them straight into the guy from Colorado that's all like "Are you a registered voter in the state of Oklahoma? Because if you are, I get $5 per signature I get on this petition!" and that will seal the deal. They will NEVER register so that they can always tell those guys from Colorado NO at the state fair.

4- Show them all of your fabulous literature you get bombarded with every primary. DID YOU KNOW SULLIVAN DIDN'T VOTE 600+ TIMES? DID YOU KNOW BRIDENSTEIN HAS A LLAMA FARM FOR TAX CREDIT PURPOSES? DID YOU KNOW SULLY DOESN'T CHAIR COMMITTEES?! DID YOU KNOW BRIDENSTEIN DIDN'T VOTE 33 PERCENT OF THE TIME IN PUBLIC ELECTIONS?!?! Nothing will make them wanna stay away from being registered as a party member (or registered, period) then all of that voter harassment.

Seriously, just stop at No. 1. Don't tell people there's a primary and they'd never know. You won't get that type of luck in a presidential election, but the primary, you're golden. Nobody knows about them. Low voter turnout is a given.



So you are actually telling people how to keep others from voting? Really?

So much for freedom and democracy.

[olevetonahill]

So you are actually telling people how to keep others from voting? Really?

So much for freedom and democracy.

And again you prove you dont know yer *** from a hole in the ground.:watermelon:

[ictsooner7]

And again you prove you dont know yer *** from a hole in the ground.:watermelon:

Then explain to me what he is doing.

[olevetonahill]

Then explain to me what he is doing.
#1 Shes a SHE
#2 Knowing her, shes being sarcastically funny
Need any more help you mental midget?

[ictsooner7]

#1 Shes a SHE
#2 Knowing her, shes being sarcastically funny
Need any more help you mental midget?


#2 Knowing her, shes being sarcastically funny

Really? Starting a sentance off with Seriously is being funny? I thought it was being serious, like um she said.


Seriously, just stop at No. 1. Don't tell people there's a primary and they'd never know. You won't get that type of luck in a presidential election, but the primary, you're golden. Nobody knows about them. Low voter turnout is a given.

[olevetonahill]

#2 Knowing her, shes being sarcastically funny

Really? Starting a sentance off with Seriously is being funny? I thought it was being serious, like um she said.

And again you prove you dont know yer *** from a hole in the ground:sneakiness:

[ictsooner7]

And again you prove you dont know yer *** from a hole in the ground:sneakiness:

and this is why i stopped posting on here..............

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Seriously, it's not a democracy.

Seriously.

[olevetonahill]

and this is why i stopped posting on here..............
Aint you possed to be far superior in intellect to the rest of us?

Doesnt the fact that YOU just posted a post bring the Lie of you Not posting here?
Ya just get dumber an dumber boy.

[KantoSooner]

Seriously, it's not a democracy.

Seriously.

Winnah! It's a Republic, just like it says in the pledge. Some people get hung up on the fact that we delegate authority to elected officials. These are generally the same people who get REALLY PISSED OFF when they are not consulted with regarding the precise ratio of Dr. Pepper to Coke to Diet DP to Diet Coke to Beer being brought to a party. And, oh GOD! you didn't open up the color of napkins to a vote?!? What kind of ****ing fascist are you?!

[SicEmBaylor]

SSSSssoooooooo.................you're advocating people not exercise the right, well what SHOULD be a right, on which our democracy was founded? Our democracy was not founded to

“Our system of government was designed, in large part, to mitigate the evils of majority rule.”

Quite the opposite. Our country was founded by men who wanted to be in control of their destiny, as long as they were the only ones who could vote ie: property owners.

Now you are bringing our founding fathers into the rights desire to limit those who can vote;

“Most of them would likely have been hostile and dismayed by contemporary levels of voter access.”

So much for democracy loving conservatives.

You speak of communism and socialism on here often, what you don’t understand is that you, nor the right, really don’t believe in democracy, you are advocating a position you say you despise, you simply want to be the one choosing who gets to be in power. You want only those who share your opinion to be able to vote and everyone else are subjects. But its ok as long as you’re doing the choosing.

Oh spare me, please.

1)I have always been against increasing voter turnout and expanding suffrage.

2)We're not a Democracy; we're a Republic.

3)Despite your howls about exercising the right to vote, you've failed to explain exactly how someone who is utterly ignorant of the political process is doing this nation a service by utilizing their right to vote. My point is -- if you don't know a thing about the political process then stay out of it.

4)You must have me confused with someone else who is "constantly" talking about socialism and communism. The only time I ever talk at length about either one is when I attempt to point out the differences between various forms of socialism and what relation they have to certain politicians or the American political system as a whole. For example, I've pointed out that Barack Obama certainly does not govern as a communist -- he's governs more as a fascist. This is also true of W. Bush. This is why I'm not a Republican and refuse to unconditionally support that party. But please go on making broad generalized assumptions about what I say around here or what I think because it has become quite obvious that you're quite unfamiliar with reality.

[C&CDean]

Alls I care about is that icky said he ain't gonna post here anymore. Talk about a win-win.

[olevetonahill]

Alls I care about is that icky said he ain't gonna post here anymore. Talk about a win-win.

Yet he still shows up to share his vastly supperior and unfettered knowledge with us

[C&CDean]

We all know he's a tool. Well everybody cept' him. Each of his posts only serve to reinforce the fact. Sometimes I almost feel sorry for the boy.

[olevetonahill]

We all know he's a tool. Well everybody cept' him. Each of his posts only serve to reinforce the fact. Sometimes I almost feel sorry for the boy.

werd

[KantoSooner]

I'm uncomfortable, we didn't put this to a vote.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Hooray! Icky's back!

Does that mean we won't see South Carolina Sooner for a while?

I think we should go back to the white male property owner thing. That would leave sic-em out. I mean, if you can't get out of school and get a damn job you shouldn't be voting.

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm uncomfortable, we didn't put this to a vote.I don't encourage that. ;)

[SicEmBaylor]

Hooray! Icky's back!

Does that mean we won't see South Carolina Sooner for a while?

I think we should go back to the white male property owner thing. That would leave sic-em out. I mean, if you can't get out of school and get a damn job you shouldn't be voting.At least I'm a white male. Too many people own property, so that wouldn't work.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

At least I'm a white male. Too many people own property, so that wouldn't work.

OK. Maybe you should have to have a messican slave or two.

[SicEmBaylor]

OK. Maybe you should have to have a messican slave or two.
I'm down with this.

[olevetonahill]

I went an voted, No clue who any of em were But I just did eenie meenie minny moe

[SicEmBaylor]

I went an voted, No clue who any of em were But I just did eenie meenie minny moe
'Atta boy.

[rock on sooner]

I went an voted, No clue who any of em were But I just did eenie meenie minny moe

Well, ya cain't bitch about it now..ya spoke yer opinion..right er wrong..

[olevetonahill]

Heh, It was he pretty much all local Democrat Primary stuff
Sucks being a Conservative Dem.:sneakiness:

[SicEmBaylor]

Heh, It was he pretty much all local Democrat Primary stuff
Sucks being a Conservative Dem.:sneakiness:
I did not know you were registered Democrat.

[olevetonahill]

I did not know you were registered Democrat.

Have been for well over 20 years

[olevetonahill]

Heh, I guess I should be Offended er some **** tho.
I walked in the Pollin place they said "Hey Vet, How ya doin?" Then axed me fer ID .

[SicEmBaylor]

Heh, I guess I should be Offended er some **** tho.
I walked in the Pollin place they said "Hey Vet, How ya doin?" Then axed me fer ID .
Nah, no reason to be offended. It's state law now, and it's a good one.

[olevetonahill]

Nah, no reason to be offended. It's state law now, and it's a good one.

I were being Sarcastic young one.

[SicEmBaylor]

Double post.

[olevetonahill]

Double post.

Where?

[SicEmBaylor]

Where?
It was mine...already edited it with "Double Post." :D

[olevetonahill]

It was mine...already edited it with "Double Post." :D
Oh I see . Cause it tried that with me and wasnt sure It dint and I just couldnt see it.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I did not know you were registered Democrat.

C'mon, Sic'em, you're a Fort Gibson boy. You know how them mountain men in the Southeast do their business.

[olevetonahill]

C'mon, Sic'em, you're a Fort Gibson boy. You know how them mountain men in the Southeast do their business.
Pretty much. If i wanta vote fer Locals elections I have to be a DEM, Come Nov. I vote the way I want

[SicEmBaylor]

C'mon, Sic'em, you're a Fort Gibson boy. You know how them mountain men in the Southeast do their business.
Aye, my kin-folk are all Little-Dixiecrats. I know all too well...