So Obammy dont want the truth to come out.

[olevetonahill]

Dude is sompun else aint he?

Obama invokes executive privilege as Holder faces contempt vote

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-invokes-executive-privilege-holder-faces-contempt-vote-143710603.html

[cleller]

Lets just save some time here:

"Oh that's nothing, Bush used to pull every trick in the book to protect his friends, and started a war just so they could make more money."

[rock on sooner]

Lets just save some time here:

"Oh that's nothing, Bush used to pull every trick in the book to protect his friends, and started a war just so they could make more money."

Case closed. Next...

[KantoSooner]

You forgot to mention the input of the satanic Dick Cheney.

Why I understand that he has his own personal torture chamber located in a secret bunker under his house where he torments little children and kittens just for the fun of it.

[sappstuf]

Senator Obama in 2007:


You know, there’s been a tendency on the part of this administration to — to try to hide behind executive privilege every time there’s something a little shaky that’s taking place. And I think, you know, the administration would be best served by coming clean on this.

I think the American people deserve to know what was going on there.


I couldn't agree more Mr President...

[rock on sooner]

It would be interesting to see a chart of how many times
executive privilege has been invoked by presidents since
Nixon.

[sappstuf]

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency"

Indeed.

[dwarthog]

Dredged this up somewhere googlin'...


Since the Reagan administration, executive privilege has been invoked 25 times: three times by Reagan, one time by the first President George H.W. Bush, 14 times by President Clinton, six times by George W. Bush, and now once by Obama

[BetterSoonerThanLater]

wow 14 by clinton...he never did anything shady, did he? ;)

[rock on sooner]

Ike invoked executive privilege 44 times. Generally regarded as a squeaky
clean so 14 by Clinton ain't so bad...

[sappstuf]

Dredged this up somewhere googlin'...

So in 20 years Repubs have used it 10 times.

In 11 years Dems have used it 15 times...

Interesting.

[sappstuf]

Ike invoked executive privilege 44 times. Generally regarded as a squeaky
clean so 14 by Clinton ain't so bad...

Yep, he sure did between 1947 and 1949.

FYI, the Roswell crash happened July 8, 1947... Coincidence? I think not...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Tinfoilhatdom.jpg/220px-Tinfoilhatdom.jpg

[badger]

wow 14 by clinton...he never did anything shady, did he? ;)

I wonder... was it because President Clinton had to face Republican majorities in Congress? I am not trying to be smarty or smarky or smarmy or... yeah. I just remember hearing about a lot of Clinton vetoes when I was in elementary school. I seem to also recall Gov. Brad Henry vetoing a lot of Republican majority bills during his dealings in state government.

[BetterSoonerThanLater]

I wonder... was it because President Clinton had to face Republican majorities in Congress? I am not trying to be smarty or smarky or smarmy or... yeah. I just remember hearing about a lot of Clinton vetoes when I was in elementary school. I seem to also recall Gov. Brad Henry vetoing a lot of Republican majority bills during his dealings in state government.

hell, i dunno...when i said shady, i went straight to the lewenski thing....i was jus bein a smart-azz :) but i'm sure the congress prolly had something to do with it, but regardless..he was/is a shady individual...but then again, aren't all politicians?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Most transparent administration - Evar!!!

What an a$$hat! He lies and hides and has no clue. O'bummer needs to leave office, hopefully only 4 more months. This a$$hat is so full of shii'ite. I , an American citizen, has less clout and power in his world than a frickin' illegal alien. What is messed up with him and his admin?

Hopefully the House will vote to hold Holder in contempt and we can go forward to impeach from there.

[sappstuf]

I wonder... was it because President Clinton had to face Republican majorities in Congress? I am not trying to be smarty or smarky or smarmy or... yeah. I just remember hearing about a lot of Clinton vetoes when I was in elementary school. I seem to also recall Gov. Brad Henry vetoing a lot of Republican majority bills during his dealings in state government.

Bush and Reagan both dealt with Dem majorities.. Both sides can probably point to the other as being extreme at varying levels of success.

I will just go with the fact that Clinton gave up his law license to avoid an indictment while in office and say he was probably the cause.

[C&CDean]

Me? I couldn't give a ****. Not one flying ****. About any of this horse****. I don't keep up with it, and the only thing I know about current events is what I read on this board. I couldn't tell you a thing about what this Holder dude did/allegedly did, and I like it that way.

I may vote in November, but prolly not. Apathy beith my name.

[rock on sooner]

Yep, he sure did between 1947 and 1949.

FYI, the Roswell crash happened July 8, 1947... Coincidence? I think not...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Tinfoilhatdom.jpg/220px-Tinfoilhatdom.jpg

Ike didn't get into office til 1952 and used the privilege 44 times between 1955
and 1959 so I'm not sure the relevance of 1947-49...

[sappstuf]

Ike didn't get into office til 1952 and used the privilege 44 times between 1955
and 1959 so I'm not sure the relevance of 1947-49...

Because that is what happens when your tired and trying to make a joke and misread something... It was Truman back in the 40s.

Ike was using executive privilege to cover up what we found at Roswell and its development...

I'm keeping the tin foil hat on!

[rock on sooner]

Because that is what happens when your tired and trying to make a joke and misread something... It was Truman back in the 40s.

Ike was using executive privilege to cover up what we found at Roswell and its development...

I'm keeping the tin foil hat on!

well, just stay inside when the lightening is around....:cheerful:

[olevetonahill]

Me? I couldn't give a ****. Not one flying ****. About any of this horse****. I don't keep up with it, and the only thing I know about current events is what I read on this board. I couldn't tell you a thing about what this Holder dude did/allegedly did, and I like it that way.

I may vote in November, but prolly not. Apathy beith my name.

Heh, You know me Im just doing my Jorb

http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/126/7dcef7e01ded437e906941bbc7ea387b/l.jpg

[cleller]

Me? I couldn't give a ****. Not one flying ****. About any of this horse****. I don't keep up with it, and the only thing I know about current events is what I read on this board. I couldn't tell you a thing about what this Holder dude did/allegedly did, and I like it that way.

I may vote in November, but prolly not. Apathy beith my name.

He either failed to realize that sending lots and lots of guns to the Mexican mafia was not such a great idea, or ignored the red flags people lower down the ladder where trying to raise in regard to the operation.
Also claimed he'd never seen certain documents, didn't know anything, which is highly doubtful; mostly likely a lie.

[badger]

Sometimes this presidency job seems so stressful that I wonder if the candidates and president himself just want to sing "Take this job and shove it..."

[cleller]

Holder has now been held in contempt of Congress by the House Oversight committee for refusing to turn over documents related to Fast and Furious.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/committee-votes-hold-eric-holder-contempt-over-fast-202646073.html

Of course, the vote was strictly along party lines, which should be aggravating no matter which party you support. Holder apparently says he's not allowed to turn over some documents.

The Republican's argument seems simple. They want files, info.
What exactly is the Dem's argument here? The files would harm national security?

[Sooner5030]

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/06/OBUSHMA_0.jpg

[Curly Bill]

Everyone knows Holder is extremely anti-2nd amendment. I think F&F was his attempt to further portray guns as evil, and that he has known about this all along, maybe even had a guiding hand in setting the program up, or at least had someone else do it with his support.

Wait and see: if we ever get to the bottom of this thing Holder is gonna be looking very bad.

[cleller]

Wait and see: if we ever get to the bottom of this thing Holder is gonna be looking very bad.

Wow. That was fast!

[diverdog]

Holder has now been held in contempt of Congress by the House Oversight committee for refusing to turn over documents related to Fast and Furious.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/committee-votes-hold-eric-holder-contempt-over-fast-202646073.html

Of course, the vote was strictly along party lines, which should be aggravating no matter which party you support. Holder apparently says he's not allowed to turn over some documents.

The Republican's argument seems simple. They want files, info.
What exactly is the Dem's argument here? The files would harm national security?

People will die if some of this information is released.

[C&CDean]

People will die if some of this information is released.

American people?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

If not, **** 'em.

[olevetonahill]

American people?

Prolly some Hyphenated- Americans

[cleller]

People will die if some of this information is released.

Some American people have already died, and Congress wants to know why. Is this held-back info to protect lives, or reputations?

[marfacowboy]

Yawn....a hog calling contest in Bald Knob, Arkansas would be more interesting than more of this partisan finger pointing and gnashing of teeth.

[okie52]

Prolly some Hyphenated- Americans

Lol

[sappstuf]

Yawn....a hog calling contest in Bald Knob, Arkansas would be more interesting than more of this partisan finger pointing and gnashing of teeth.

Brian Terry's family disagrees...

[sappstuf]

People will die if some of this information is released.

You can't know that... This has been going on for 18 months and not once has the AG brought up that this might fall under executive privilege until his nuts are in a vice.

Besides.. People have already died... That is the point.

[olevetonahill]

Brian Terry's family disagrees...

Dont argue with him. That boy put ya the Iggy list

[soonercruiser]

Senator Obama in 2007:
I couldn't agree more Mr President...

Thanks Sapp!
I was going to look up the video of Obama saying that when he was at the other end of the stick!He is soooooo dang smart, isn't he?

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/SoonerCruiser_photos/Political/hypocrisy.jpg

[soonercruiser]

I wonder... was it because President Clinton had to face Republican majorities in Congress? I am not trying to be smarty or smarky or smarmy or... yeah. I just remember hearing about a lot of Clinton vetoes when I was in elementary school. I seem to also recall Gov. Brad Henry vetoing a lot of Republican majority bills during his dealings in state government.

Oh, Come now Badger.
You tryin' to tell us youz a young'un?

[soonercruiser]

Everyone knows Holder is extremely anti-2nd amendment. I think F&F was his attempt to further portray guns as evil, and that he has known about this all along, maybe even had a guiding hand in setting the program up, or at least had someone else do it with his support.

Wait and see: if we ever get to the bottom of this thing Holder is gonna be looking very bad.

Curly,
That was the biggest theory running around early on in the investigation.
The idea was that sooooo many U.S. guns would be found associated with cartel crimes in Mexico and drug running in the U.S., that pressure would grow for anti-gun legislation in Congress.

[soonercruiser]

People will die if some of this information is released.

Yah! Kinda like the Pakisatni spy "outed" by the WH security leak!
I can't wait to see all the info and evidence that is blocked by the WH in that investigation.
After all, it was only national security secrets!

[sappstuf]

Dont argue with him. That boy put ya the Iggy list

Good point. I didn't start the sentence with "Sir" and pay my proper respects...

[olevetonahill]

Good point. I didn't start the sentence with "Sir" and pay my proper respects...


If ya get put on the Iggy list then ya have to stay in the Pig sty with Me an Curly an pphilfran. An believe me its Hell. Why we barely get to sober up before we start dranking again and hardly any libs **** with us. Its hell I tell ya Pure Hell.

[Curly Bill]

If ya get put on the Iggy list then ya have to stay in the Pig sty with Me an Curly an pphilfran. An believe me its Hell. Why we barely get to sober up before we start dranking again and hardly any libs **** with us. Its hell I tell ya Pure Hell.

He musta taken me off the iggy list cause he gave me a couple of negs. I hope the dumas knows it didn't take nothing away from me, not even a single rep point.

[olevetonahill]

He musta taken me off the iggy list cause he gave me a couple of negs. I hope the dumas knows it didn't take nothing away from me, not even a single rep point.

So yer sayin hes wishy washy and aint got the courage of his convictions?

[Curly Bill]

So yer sayin hes wishy washy and aint got the courage of his convictions?

I'm sayin he's a typical frothing big-mouth, pansy-a** liberal.

[olevetonahill]

I'm sayin he's a typical frothing big-mouth, pansy-a** liberal.
Quit beatin around the bush and tell us how ya really feel. Sheesh

[sappstuf]

well, just stay inside when the lightening is around....:cheerful:

Man I was tired last night... I will be happy to finally have some thunder and lightning.. I think we have had one thunderstorm in my 7 months here... Not near enough.

[Curly Bill]

Quit beatin around the bush and tell us how ya really feel. Sheesh

I got no use for yappy little pansy-asses. In real life if ya gave the guy a tough look he'd call 911 for help.

[diverdog]

Some American people have already died, and Congress wants to know why. Is this held-back info to protect lives, or reputations?

From what I understand it list informants, under cover agents (US and Mexico), government officials and others who worked on this operation. Plus it would be an intelligence coupe for the cartels.

My problem with this partisan vote is that Issa has not investigated the entire gun waliking program starting with Operation Wide Receiver in 2005. Guns have been lost at every stage of this operation.

[yermom]

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/06/OBUSHMA_0.jpg

the worst part about Obama

[sappstuf]

From what I understand it list informants, under cover agents (US and Mexico), government officials and others who worked on this operation. Plus it would be an intelligence coupe for the cartels.

My problem with this partisan vote is that Issa has not investigated the entire gun waliking program starting with Operation Wide Receiver in 2005. Guns have been lost at every stage of this operation.

That is not what Holder wrote in his letter pleading for help to Obama..


I am asking you to assert executive privilege over these documents. They were not generated in the course of the conduct of Fast and Furious. Instead, they were created after the investigative tactics at issue in that operation had terminated and in the course of the Department’s deliberative process concerning how to respond to congressional and related media inquiries into that operation.

So there is no list of informants. Let us just stop that right now.

It sounds like what he doesn't want to release are the documents of the cover up.. And we do know there was a cover up. Here was a letter the Justice department sent to Congress early on in the investigation


“The allegation . . . that ATF ‘sanctioned’ or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons . . . is false.

We know that is completely untrue and the letter was withdrawn.

Holder claimed that Bush's AG knew about the gunrunning... Senator Grassley told him to prove it. Holder withdrew the claim.

Here is a great exchange with Holder denying the completely obvious.

C8YJIx0I23U

One thing we know from history is that the cover up is usually worse than the crime. That appears to be the case here.

Although, no one died because of Watergate.

[sappstuf]

And if you think that Holder's contempt charge is because he isn't turning over a massive amount of broad documents, you are incorrect. Holder himself describes what the Committee wants.


The Committee has made clear that its contempt resolution will be limited to internal Department ‘documents from after February 4, 2011, related to the Department’s response to Congress.’

February 4th is the date that the Justice department falsely claimed to Congress there was no gunrunning going on. It took the Justice Department 10 months to finally come clean.. 10 months.

[diverdog]

That is not what Holder wrote in his letter pleading for help to Obama..



So there is no list of informants. Let us just stop that right now.

It sounds like what he doesn't want to release are the documents of the cover up.. And we do know there was a cover up. Here was a letter the Justice department sent to Congress early on in the investigation



We know that is completely untrue and the letter was withdrawn.

Holder claimed that Bush's AG knew about the gunrunning... Senator Grassley told him to prove it. Holder withdrew the claim.

Here is a great exchange with Holder denying the completely obvious.

C8YJIx0I23U

One thing we know from history is that the cover up is usually worse than the crime. That appears to be the case here.

Although, no one died because of Watergate.

Sapp:

Have they not provided 7500 pages of documents and there is an IG investigation?
So I seriously doubt there is some huge scandel. Nothing approaching Watergate or Iran Contra. This will end up in court.

I also find it laughable the Republicans keep screaming about the gun that killed the ATF agent. I thought the mantra of the right was that it is people that kill not guns they used.

At the end of the day I could care less what happens to holder. He should step down.

[sappstuf]

Sapp:

Have they not provided 7500 pages of documents and there is an IG investigation?
So I seriously doubt there is some huge scandel. Nothing approaching Watergate or Iran Contra. This will end up in court.

I also find it laughable the Republicans keep screaming about the gun that killed the ATF agent. I thought the mantra of the right was that it is people that kill not guns they used.

At the end of the day I could care less what happens to holder. He should step down.

Isn't that pretty much the same as releasing all the tapes except those pesky 18 minutes? 'I released 7500 minutes of tape. Those other 18 aren't important...'

Who exactly does the IG work for?

Holder has been caught repeatedly lying or misrepresenting the truth. Why on earth do you believe what he is saying?

[Midtowner]

It should be released. Holder is absolutely incompetent. The ATF is really no better. Those guys are insane. They love high risk operations.

This whole business has been a fiasco and of course the Republicans are (and should) have a political field day with it. The President looks pretty bad hiding behind executive privilege here, especially when the courts might step in and stop him from doing that and order the documents released.

In the grand scheme of things, this is pretty small potatoes. In therms of showing to what lengths the President will go to protect his AG who has already committed perjury in front of Congress, it makes the President look pretty bad.

Of course, if this stuff is disclosed and it puts lives in danger, I might be persuaded otherwise. I don't think we have any evidence of that possibility though.

[marfacowboy]

He musta taken me off the iggy list cause he gave me a couple of negs. I hope the dumas knows it didn't take nothing away from me, not even a single rep point.

You went through my posts like a two year old and negged almost every one. You negged a post about football where I discussed how good the '73 team was. What a childish prank. I just returned the favor.

[marfacowboy]

I'm sayin he's a typical frothing big-mouth, pansy-a** liberal.

So all liberals are pansy-a**es? What a load of manure. People like you, the ones always calling people pansy's and such, you're the ones that are cowardly. It's a defense mechanism, a way for you to deal with your inadequacies as a man.

[cleller]

Holder's problem is that no matter what reason he gives to want to hold the documents, no one is going to believe him now.

Also, who says these documents are going to be made public record, anyway? This is a Congressional committee; all members of Congress have top secret security clearance. It may not be comfortable to let them look thru this stuff, but there are tons of people at DOJ doing it every day anyway.

[C&CDean]

Oh deer lowered, we're not having another spek battle are we?

[dwarthog]

Holder's problem is that no matter what reason he gives to want to hold the documents, no one is going to believe him now.

Also, who says these documents are going to be made public record, anyway? This is a Congressional committee; all members of Congress have top secret security clearance. It may not be comfortable to let them look thru this stuff, but there are tons of people at DOJ doing it every day anyway.

Perhaps they are afraid they'll be leaked and made into a movie in time for an upcoming election?

[sappstuf]

Sapp:

Have they not provided 7500 pages of documents and there is an IG investigation?
So I seriously doubt there is some huge scandel. Nothing approaching Watergate or Iran Contra. This will end up in court.

I also find it laughable the Republicans keep screaming about the gun that killed the ATF agent. I thought the mantra of the right was that it is people that kill not guns they used.

At the end of the day I could care less what happens to holder. He should step down.

Guns don't kill people. Drug cartels armed by our government kill people.

[LiveLaughLove]

Has Obama EVER wanted the truth to come out in connection to him in any way?

His transparency is equal to a solar eclipse. His own bio is his preemptive fiction.

His made up girlfriend that didn't exist, and now his accusations that Britain tortured his grandfather, could have been father, total fiction. Didn't happen, but it made for good copy.

The truth is whatever he and his media sycophants try to shovel to us, in other words, not very truthful at all.

[olevetonahill]

Has Obama EVER wanted the truth to come out in connection to him in any way?

His transparency is equal to a solar eclipse. His own bio is his preemptive fiction.

His made up girlfriend that didn't exist, and now his accusations that Britain tortured his grandfather, could have been father, total fiction. Didn't happen, but it made for good copy.

The truth is whatever he and his media sycophants try to shovel to us, in other words, not very truthful at all.

Whats this about Britain?

[dwarthog]

Whats this about Britain?

It's beginning to look like "Dreams" of a somebody else's father/grandfather...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161817/Obamas-grandfather-Stanley-Armour-Dunham-tortured-British.html

[olevetonahill]

It's beginning to look like "Dreams" of a somebody else's father/grandfather...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161817/Obamas-grandfather-Stanley-Armour-Dunham-tortured-British.html

So he really is a liar then.

[marfacowboy]

Oh deer lowered, we're not having another spek battle are we?

I really don't have time for this type of behavior. Grown men with businesses to run and families to support having "Interne treputation battles." It's ridiculous. I apologize for apparently creating such a row, and think it's better if I just bow out and let you guys have it.
Good luck.

[olevetonahill]

I really don't have time for this type of behavior. Grown men with businesses to run and families to support having "Interne treputation battles." It's ridiculous. I apologize for apparently creating such a row, and think it's better if I just bow out and let you guys have it.
Good luck.

Awe did we hurt yer wittle feelers?

http://i51.tinypic.com/fwj32o.jpg

[Curly Bill]

So all liberals are pansy-a**es? What a load of manure. People like you, the ones always calling people pansy's and such, you're the ones that are cowardly. It's a defense mechanism, a way for you to deal with your inadequacies as a man.

:)

[Curly Bill]

Oh deer lowered, we're not having another spek battle are we?

It ain't really much of a battle. ;)

[diverdog]

Holder's problem is that no matter what reason he gives to want to hold the documents, no one is going to believe him now.

Also, who says these documents are going to be made public record, anyway? This is a Congressional committee; all members of Congress have top secret security clearance. It may not be comfortable to let them look thru this stuff, but there are tons of peopleI at DOJ doing it every day anyway.

The problem is that Issa has a problem releasing secret information. Then again so does everyone else in DC.

[dwarthog]

The problem is that Issa has a problem releasing secret information. Then again so does everyone else in DC.

Issa has previously released secret info?

[Curly Bill]

It ain't about releasing secret info. Anybody but the most blindly liberal donk realizes it's about the Obammy's having something to hide.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Sandy Berger may be of some assistance to Holder right about now...:watermelon:

[sappstuf]

Here is the email that Holder denied having anything to do with Fast and Furious.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2012/06/FFuriousEmail087.jpg

[sappstuf]

Sandy Berger may be of some assistance to Holder right about now...:watermelon:

http://countrystore.blogspot.com/images/BergerSocks.jpg

[diverdog]

Here is the email that Holder denied having anything to do with Fast and Furious.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2012/06/FFuriousEmail087.jpg

Fill me in on what I am missing.

[olevetonahill]

It ain't really much of a battle. ;)

Heh, He flipped a little booger at me. ax me do I care.

[sappstuf]

Fill me in on what I am missing.

Holder has consistently testified that the Fast and Furious operation was a local operation and that senior Justice officials had no knowledge of it. The guy who wrote the email is 3 steps from the top of Justice. His boss reports to the Deputy AG who reports to the AG.

[diverdog]

Holder has consistently testified that the Fast and Furious operation was a local operation and that senior Justice officials had no knowledge of it. The guy who wrote the email is 3 steps from the top of Justice. His boss reports to the Deputy AG who reports to the AG.

You know this is a waste of time and money. No one is going to jail.

[sappstuf]

Fill me in on what I am missing.

Here is Holder's testimony:


“Fast and Furious was a mid-level, regional investigation,” Holder said. “Mr. Weinstein and Mr. Breuer did not know about the tactics being used in Fast and Furious until the beginning of last year.”

So when confronted with an email that proves that Mr. Weinstein knew about Fast and Furious at a much earlier date, Holder denies that Fast and Furious means Fast and furious.

Do you believe him?

[sappstuf]

You know this is a waste of time and money. No one is going to jail.

Waste of time for us peasants to ask why the federal government is supplying drug cartels weapons to slaughter hundreds of Mexicans their lives and at least 2 Americans.

Why bother....

[OULenexaman]

Here is Holder's testimony:



So when confronted with an email that proves that Mr. Weinstein knew about Fast and Furious at a much earlier date, Holder denies that Fast and Furious means Fast and furious.

Do you believe him? I'd believe Pinocchio over Holder...

[diverdog]

Waste of time for us peasants to ask why the federal government is supplying drug cartels weapons to slaughter hundreds of Mexicans their lives and at least 2 Americans.

Why bother....

It was a botched criminal investigation and people should be fired. But no one will go to jail.

[soonercruiser]

The problem is that Issa has a problem releasing secret information. Then again so does everyone else in DC.

Oh, please explain that chit thrown on the wall Diver!
What secrets?
The WH is the place with problems releasing state secrets.

[soonercruiser]

It was a botched criminal investigation and people should be fired. But no one will go to jail.

There is no proof that actually anyone shouldn't go to jail....is there Diver?
That's the point! Holder and Obama are hiding the truth!
Duh!

[soonercruiser]

Waste of time for us peasants to ask why the federal government is supplying drug cartels weapons to slaughter hundreds of Mexicans their lives and at least 2 Americans.
Why bother....

THis IS the elephant fact in the room!
Mexico should be outraged.

[sappstuf]

It was a botched criminal investigation and people should be fired. But no one will go to jail.

Do botched criminal investigations usually lead to the direct deaths of hundreds of people?

[Wishboned]

THis IS the elephant fact in the room!
Mexico should be outraged.

They're too busy being outraged at Arizona's anti illegal laws to worry about the deaths of their own people.

[diverdog]

Do botched criminal investigations usually lead to the direct deaths of hundreds of people?

Wow that is huge stretch in logic.

[olevetonahill]

Wow that is huge stretch in logic.
Prolly no more of a stretch than sayin Kuwait Begged to be invaded,

[diverdog]

Prolly no more of a stretch than sayin Kuwait Begged to be invaded,

No because if you say guns kill people then we need to ban all guns. That is the argument Sapp is making.

The truth is the cartels will get guns and kill each other until law enforcement takes them out.

This is not the first time the US provided guns to thugs.

[sappstuf]

Wow that is huge stretch in logic.

Would you rather me say that the United States government sold weapons to known drug cartel members that were then used to slaughter hundreds of people. Thousands of these weapons are still unaccounted for. You think any investigation into this is a waste of time and money.

Is that a huge stretch in logic?

[sappstuf]

No because if you say guns kill people then we need to ban all guns. That is the argument Sapp is making.

The truth is the cartels will get guns and kill each other until law enforcement takes them out.

This is not the first time the US provided guns to thugs.

Can you please give other examples of a law enforcement agency giving criminals thousands of weapons and make no effort to track them?

TIA.

[soonercruiser]

Wow that is huge stretch in logic.

Get educated Diver!
There are already higher estimates of the "tagged" guns and how many Mexican deaths are realted.

[soonercruiser]

Prolly no more of a stretch than sayin Kuwait Begged to be invaded,

Yes, Vet!
That was a pretty sick interpretation on Diver's part!

[diverdog]

Can you please give other examples of a law enforcement agency giving criminals thousands of weapons and make no effort to track them?

TIA.

Our government through law enforcement agencies, intelligence agencies and the military have provided weapons to rogue regimes for years and some of them have been used to kill US personnel. We gave OBL $2 billion in weapons, we provided South American dictators who had death squads with weapons. You know this or you choose to overlook it.

[diverdog]

Get educated Diver!
There are already higher estimates of the "tagged" guns and how many Mexican deaths are realted.

And many of those were bought legally in the US.

[sappstuf]

Our government through law enforcement agencies, intelligence agencies and the military have provided weapons to rogue regimes for years and some of them have been used to kill US personnel. We gave OBL $2 billion in weapons, we provided South American dictators who had death squads with weapons. You know this or you choose to overlook it.

That isn't a link. I want a link to law enforcement.. Not CIA.. Not military. Law enforcement. Which has a completely different function of enforcing US laws.

I'll read the link whenever you send it. TIA.

[sappstuf]

Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing. ...
I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest.

Selling criminals guns.. And taking notes.

You are completely ok with this and think it is a waste of time and money to ask any further questions.

[diverdog]

Yes, Vet!
That was a pretty sick interpretation on Diver's part!

Cruiser,



Saddam reportedly decided on war sometime in July 1990, but before sending his army into Kuwait, he approached the United States to find out how it would react. In a now famous interview with the Iraqi leader, U.S. Ambassador April Glaspie told Saddam, "[W]e have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait." The U.S. State Department had earlier told Saddam that Washington had "no special defense or security commitments to Kuwait." The United States may not have intended to give Iraq a green light, but that is effectively what it did.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2003/01/01/an_unnecessary_war?page=0,1

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/01/08/wikiileaks_april_glaspie_and_saddam_hussein

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_abdus_sa_080223_was_1991_gulf_war_a_.htm

Cruiser why don't you spend some time reading about the Gulf War? We have been forced into 22 years of war that we did not need to wage. The first war was caused by Kuwaiti intransigence against Iraq and a failed and incompetent diplomatic effort on the part of the US government. We also backed Saddam with billions of dollars in military aid and it came back and bit us in the ***. We have been double dealing in the ME for decades and it has not been good for our nation. Had we stayed out of this mess there is a very good chance the towers in New York would still be around and thousands of US citizens would not have died.

[diverdog]

Can you please give other examples of a law enforcement agency giving criminals thousands of weapons and make no effort to track them?

TIA.

You mean like Operation Wide Receiver?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/earlier-atf-gun-operation-wide-receiver-used-same-tactics-as-fast-and-furious/2011/10/06/gIQAuRHIRL_story.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/mexico-wide-receiver-reaction-guns-weapons-left-right.html

or this:


Another, smaller probe occurred in 2007 under the same ATF Phoenix field division. It began when the ATF identified Mexican suspects who bought weapons from a Phoenix gun shop over a span of several months. The probe ultimately involved over 200 guns, a dozen of which were lost in Mexico. On September 27, 2007, ATF agents saw the original suspects buying weapons at the same store and followed them toward the Mexican border. The ATF informed the Mexican government when the suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious#cite_note-npr1-3)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious#cite_note-Bush-Era_Incident-9)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious#2006.E2.80.932007:_Oper ation_Wide_Receiver_and_other_probes

So lets call this probe for a what it is..... a political witch hunt against Holder and Obama only. Issa has no desire to investigate the entire scope of the ATF's involvement in "gun walking" and there are suspicions there were a half dozen other smaller operations conducted under both Bush and Obama.

[LiveLaughLove]

You mean like Operation Wide Receiver?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/earlier-atf-gun-operation-wide-receiver-used-same-tactics-as-fast-and-furious/2011/10/06/gIQAuRHIRL_story.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/mexico-wide-receiver-reaction-guns-weapons-left-right.html

or this:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious#2006.E2.80.932007:_Oper ation_Wide_Receiver_and_other_probes

So lets call this probe for a what it is..... a political witch hunt against Holder and Obama only. Issa has no desire to investigate the entire scope of the ATF's involvement in "gun walking" and there are suspicions there were a half dozen other smaller operations conducted under both Bush and Obama.

There's this hilarious scene in Breaking Away (1979, really good flick) where the kid helps his dad at his used car lot. A guy brings a car back and wants a refund. The dad is pushing the car back off of his lot and saying no to the refund. The son says, of course we'll give you the refund, we're honest people. The scene cuts away and the dad wakes up shouting, "Refund!? Refund!?".

This is the remarkably consistent Pavlovian response that comes from diver, mid, ict, and several others here, except its, "Bush! Bush!".

You don't get to excuse your guys nefarious ways after setting himself up to be some messiah above it all, by shouting about the guy that has been gone for over 3 years now. Deal with it. He's an ordinary lying pandering windbag. His AG has been crooked and biased for decades. The guy doesn't even try to hide his biases, such is the arrogance of this administration.

The cat calls for Bush don't work here and they won't work anywhere else that people can use common sense and see with their own two eyes. It just makes you and him look pathetic.

And political witch hunts have been going on for time immemorial. If there's nothing there, then they have nothing to worry about. Unfortunately, a good man, by all accounts, is dead. Someone needs to answer for that...and it's not Bush.

[diverdog]

There's this hilarious scene in Breaking Away (1979, really good flick) where the kid helps his dad at his used car lot. A guy brings a car back and wants a refund. The dad is pushing the car back off of his lot and saying no to the refund. The son says, of course we'll give you the refund, we're honest people. The scene cuts away and the dad wakes up shouting, "Refund!? Refund!?".

This is the remarkably consistent Pavlovian response that comes from diver, mid, ict, and several others here, except its, "Bush! Bush!".

You don't get to excuse your guys nefarious ways after setting himself up to be some messiah above it all, by shouting about the guy that has been gone for over 3 years now. Deal with it. He's an ordinary lying pandering windbag. His AG has been crooked and biased for decades. The guy doesn't even try to hide his biases, such is the arrogance of this administration.

The cat calls for Bush don't work here and they won't work anywhere else that people can use common sense and see with their own two eyes. It just makes you and him look pathetic.

And political witch hunts have been going on for time immemorial. If there's nothing there, then they have nothing to worry about. Unfortunately, a good man, by all accounts, is dead. Someone needs to answer for that...and it's not Bush.

First of all I love the movie Breaking Away and it got me into racing bicycles for years. I owned 3 different Masi's during my life (the road bike in the movie) including the exact model that was ridden in the movie.... a Masi Grand Criterium made by the master frame builder Faliero Masi. I still have my 25 year old Nuevo Strada which is a gorgeous bike. Remind me to tell you the story of how he moved his factories to the US when the communist took over in Italy for a time.

You guys want to act like Bush never happened. Well guess what he did. He was the worst President of my lifetime and that is saying something since Carter was also President. Presidential decisions will affect this nation for decades. They do not fade after 3 years. If you think they do then you know nothing about policy. We are still dealing with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The affects of his anti-regulation are still being felt in the economy. And we are still paying for his prescription drug policies. I can guarantee you that if Obamacare stands in 10 years you guys will be blaming Obama and not some current Republican president. And to be fair the anti regulatory policies of Clinton are still affecting us.

As for lying and pandering I think you could say that about every politician. I do not like any of them.

[pphilfran]

You mean like Operation Wide Receiver?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/earlier-atf-gun-operation-wide-receiver-used-same-tactics-as-fast-and-furious/2011/10/06/gIQAuRHIRL_story.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/mexico-wide-receiver-reaction-guns-weapons-left-right.html

or this:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious#2006.E2.80.932007:_Oper ation_Wide_Receiver_and_other_probes

So lets call this probe for a what it is..... a political witch hunt against Holder and Obama only. Issa has no desire to investigate the entire scope of the ATF's involvement in "gun walking" and there are suspicions there were a half dozen other smaller operations conducted under both Bush and Obama.

I don't think so...and if it is it shouldn't be... :)

The family of the slain officer wants to know what happened...they want justice...and I damn sure am not going to be the one to tell them to buzz off...

This is a real simple deal...you give the investigating team every fricking thing they want..if they want a million frigging pages of documentation you give them a million pages....sensitive areas that could cause harm to others in the future can be blocked out....

Just like everything else in DC you have to treat em like you are pulling frigging teeth...if you want a birth certificate lets drag that simple task out for a couple of years...documentation on the murder of a US employee that put their life on the line...screw him and the family...they ain't important enough...

[pphilfran]

First of all I love the movie Breaking Away and it got me into racing bicycles for years. I owned 3 different Masi's during my life (the road bike in the movie) including the exact model that was ridden in the movie.... a Masi Grand Criterium made by the master frame builder Faliero Masi. I still have my 25 year old Nuevo Strada which is a gorgeous bike. Remind me to tell you the story of how he moved his factories to the US when the communist took over in Italy for a time.

You guys want to act like Bush never happened. Well guess what he did. He was the worst President of my lifetime and that is saying something since Carter was also President. Presidential decisions will affect this nation for decades. They do not fade after 3 years. If you think they do then you know nothing about policy. We are still dealing with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The affects of his anti-regulation are still being felt in the economy. And we are still paying for his prescription drug policies. I can guarantee you that if Obamacare stands in 10 years you guys will be blaming Obama and not some current Republican president. And to be fair the anti regulatory policies of Clinton are still affecting us.

As for lying and pandering I think you could say that about every politician. I do not like any of them.

It is in my top ten of gay movies.... lol

I bought a Raleigh Grand Prix back in 1971 or 72...140 bucks...that was damn near 2 weeks take home pay...

[sappstuf]

You mean like Operation Wide Receiver?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/earlier-atf-gun-operation-wide-receiver-used-same-tactics-as-fast-and-furious/2011/10/06/gIQAuRHIRL_story.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/mexico-wide-receiver-reaction-guns-weapons-left-right.html

or this:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious#2006.E2.80.932007:_Oper ation_Wide_Receiver_and_other_probes

So lets call this probe for a what it is..... a political witch hunt against Holder and Obama only. Issa has no desire to investigate the entire scope of the ATF's involvement in "gun walking" and there are suspicions there were a half dozen other smaller operations conducted under both Bush and Obama.

From your story:


The probe ultimately involved over 200 guns, a dozen of which were lost in Mexico.

Are you really trying to compare 12 guns to 2000 guns???

There are other differences.. Wide Receiver attempted to track the guns and worked with the Mexican government:


Unlike Fast and Furious, Operation Wide Receiver worked closely with Mexican counterparts, attempted to trace weapons using RFID tracking devices embedded in the weapons and employed an aircraft to surveil and track the firearms to alleged cartels. But Operation Wide Receiver failed because cartels outsmarted law enforcement and discovered the tracking devices

I can understand getting outsmarted. I can understand attempting something and failing.

How did Fast and Furious track weapons?


"Stand down," the investigators were told whenever they sought permission to make a stop and attempt to retrieve the weapons. "Just surveil."

At times, agents followed buyers to their homes or drop points, but they would eventually be instructed to leave. They saw guns being transferred from one car into another, but then watched as that car drove away with the weapons.

No attempt to track the weapons whatsoever. That isn't even trying. You cannot, although you try, put them in the same category.

You call this a "political witch hunt against Holder and Obama only.". If that is true and what Holder said is true that this was a mid-level operation that no on in the senior levels of the Justice Department knew anything about, then what is the concern about releasing the documents? That is the way to PROVE there was no involvement by the senior levels of the Justice Department.

Follow up question: Why would Obama provide Executive Privilege to a mid-level operation? Is has nothing to do with undercover operations because Issa has narrowed what documents that he wants.

Get the facts out and be done with it.

[diverdog]

I don't think so...and if it is it shouldn't be... :)

The family of the slain officer wants to know what happened...they want justice...and I damn sure am not going to be the one to tell them to buzz off...

This is a real simple deal...you give the investigating team every fricking thing they want..if they want a million frigging pages of documentation you give them a million pages....sensitive areas that could cause harm to others in the future can be blocked out....

Just like everything else in DC you have to treat em like you are pulling frigging teeth...if you want a birth certificate lets drag that simple task out for a couple of years...documentation on the murder of a US employee that put their life on the line...screw him and the family...they ain't important enough...

Then appoint an independent commission and investigate all of the gunwalking operations.
Right now you have a know partisan hack investigating Holder.

[diverdog]

From your story:



Are you really trying to compare 12 guns to 2000 guns???

There are other differences.. Wide Receiver attempted to track the guns and worked with the Mexican government:



I can understand getting outsmarted. I can understand attempting something and failing.

How did Fast and Furious track weapons?



No attempt to track the weapons whatsoever. That isn't even trying. You cannot, although you try, put them in the same category.

You call this a "political witch hunt against Holder and Obama only.". If that is true and what Holder said is true that this was a mid-level operation that no on in the senior levels of the Justice Department knew anything about, then what is the concern about releasing the documents? That is the way to PROVE there was no involvement by the senior levels of the Justice Department.

Follow up question: Why would Obama provide Executive Privilege to a mid-level operation? Is has nothing to do with undercover operations because Issa has narrowed what documents that he wants.

Get the facts out and be done with it.

The documents that Issa wants are not part of the normal investigative process. Reagan defend executive priveledge over deliberative documents rather fiercely.

Again appoint an independent council.

[pphilfran]

Then appoint an independent commission and investigate all of the gunwalking operations.
Right now you have a know partisan hack investigating Holder.

Yes, I realize that a pub is investigating....

I don't give a chit who is investigating I just think that there is much more out there that has yet to be exposed...

It is simple...turn over the paperwork that has been requested and be done with it....

[pphilfran]

The documents that Issa wants are not part of the normal investigative process. Reagan defend executive priveledge over deliberative documents rather fiercely.

Again appoint an independent council.

If no one has seen the documents that have been requested how do we know they are not part of the normal process?

[sappstuf]

The documents that Issa wants are not part of the normal investigative process. Reagan defend executive priveledge over deliberative documents rather fiercely.

Again appoint an independent council.

Do you know why? Because Holder's keep lying to them. That is the number one reason it isn't normal.

Justice wrote a letter to Congress that was false. 1 month later CBS reported on F&F.. However it took Justice 10 months after that to finally cough up the truth. Why?

What would an independent council do since Obama has claimed executive privilege?

You haven't even attempted to explain why the president needs to claim executive privilege on a mid level operation that no one in senior leadership knew about.

[sappstuf]

The documents that Issa wants are not part of the normal investigative process. Reagan defend executive priveledge over deliberative documents rather fiercely.

Again appoint an independent council.

What does that have to do with a mid level operation that no one in Washington knew about?

[diverdog]

If no one has seen the documents that have been requested how do we know they are not part of the normal process?

Don't complain to me. The courts have generally upheld executive priveledge.

Here is the point phil, the ATF is out of control. If we want to get to the bottom of this then interview everyone all the way back to 2005.

[pphilfran]

Don't complain to me. The courts have generally upheld executive priveledge.

Here is the point phil, the ATF is out of control. If we want to get to the bottom of this then interview everyone all the way back to 2005.

Go back as far as you need...

I just think it is lame to let this drag out...give em the documents and we would be done with this mess...

[diverdog]

Go back as far as you need...

I just think it is lame to let this drag out...give em the documents and we would be done with this mess...

Phil:

I really don't think Issa has the right to see those documents. A special investigator could get them. In the end all this will play out in court and I suspect nothing will happen. No one is really interested in the truth on Capital Hill it is all about politics.

[KABOOKIE]

2660

[olevetonahill]

Phil:

I really don't think Issa has the right to see those documents. A special investigator could get them. In the end all this will play out in court and I suspect nothing will happen. No one is really interested in the truth on Capital Hill it is all about politics.

Bull ****,
We the People have the right.

[soonercruiser]

Cruiser,
Cruiser why don't you spend some time reading about the Gulf War? We have been forced into 22 years of war that we did not need to wage. The first war was caused by Kuwaiti intransigence against Iraq and a failed and incompetent diplomatic effort on the part of the US government. We also backed Saddam with billions of dollars in military aid and it came back and bit us in the ***. We have been double dealing in the ME for decades and it has not been good for our nation. Had we stayed out of this mess there is a very good chance the towers in New York would still be around and thousands of US citizens would not have died.

Sure thing Diver!
I get it! You think that what we have done in the world over decades has made the Islamic terrorists do things to us that they wouldn't otherwise have done!
Makes just as much sense as.....


Olevet:
......... And to be perfectly honest Kuwait got everything it deserved.


That shows how much you understand them, and Islam!
Their duty is to kill all the infadels!
If we hadn't been in the ME, yes no planes in the towers..... just probably an A bomb in NYC by now!

[sappstuf]

Phil:

I really don't think Issa has the right to see those documents. A special investigator could get them. In the end all this will play out in court and I suspect nothing will happen. No one is really interested in the truth on Capital Hill it is all about politics.

What you mean to say is that Congress doesn't have the right to see those documents. You are incorrect.


Congressional oversight of policy implementation and administration, which has occurred throughout the U.S. government experience under the Constitution, takes a variety of forms and utilizes various techniques. These range from specialized investigations by select committees to annual appropriations hearings, and from informal communications between Members or congressional staff and executive personnel to the use of extra congressional mechanisms, such as offices of inspector general and study commissions. Oversight, moreover, is supported by a variety of authorities—the Constitution, public law, and chamber and committee rules—and is an integral part of the system of checks and balances between the legislature and the executive.


Congressional oversight refers to the review, monitoring, and supervision of federal agencies, programs, activities, and policy implementation. Congress exercises this power largely through its standing committee system. However, oversight, which dates to the earliest days of the Republic, also occurs in a wide variety of congressional activities and contexts. These include authorization, appropriations, investigative, and legislative hearings by standing committees; specialized investigations by select committees; and reviews and studies by congressional support agencies and staff.

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/CRS.Oversight.pdf

So if this was a mid-level Justice operation as Holder has claimed, then Congress absolutely has oversight.

[diverdog]

Sure thing Diver!
I get it! You think that what we have done in the world over decades has made the Islamic terrorists do things to us that they wouldn't otherwise have done!
Makes just as much sense as.....



That shows how much you understand them, and Islam!
Their duty is to kill all the infadels!
If we hadn't been in the ME, yes no planes in the towers..... just probably an A bomb in NYC by now!

Wow you really drink the kool aid. I suppose you think we liberated Kuwait for freedom and democracy.

[diverdog]

What you mean to say is that Congress doesn't have the right to see those documents. You are incorrect.





http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/CRS.Oversight.pdf

So if this was a mid-level Justice operation as Holder has claimed, then Congress absolutely has oversight.

Read US vs Nixon.

Congress has oversite but that does not mean they get to see everything that they demand to see. The President is protected by Article 2 of the Constitution.


. Clause 1: The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows


From a case involving GWB:


. The reason for these distinctions rests upon a bedrock presidential prerogative: for the President to perform his constitutional duties, it is imperative that he receive candid and unfettered advice and that free and open discussions and deliberations occur among his advisors and between those advisors and others within and outside the Executive Branch.

[diverdog]

Bull ****,
We the People have the right.

Nope it doesn't work that way vet.


. The Supreme Court did not reject the claim of privilege out of hand; it noted, in fact, "the valid need for protection of communications between high Government officials and those who advise and assist them in the performance of their manifold duties" and that "[h]uman experience teaches that those who expect public dissemination of their remarks may well temper candor with a concern for appearances and for their own interests to the detriment of the decisionmaking process." This is very similar to the logic that the Court had used in establishing an "executive immunity" defense for high office-holders charged with violating citizens' constitutional rights in the course of performing their duties. The Supreme Court stated: "To read the Article II powers of the President as providing an absolute privilege as against a subpoena essential to enforcement of criminal statutes on no more than a generalized claim of the public interest in confidentiality of nonmilitary and nondiplomatic discussions would upset the constitutional balance of 'a workable government' and gravely impair the role of the courts under Article III." Because Nixon had asserted only a generalized need for confidentiality, the Court held that the larger public interest in obtaining the truth in the context of a criminal prosecution took precedence.

The constitution is a tricky thing.

[sappstuf]

Read US vs Nixon.

Congress has oversite but that does not mean they get to see everything that they demand to see.

US vs Nixon has nothing to do with this case unless you believe Obama was involved. Do you?

There are much newer court precedents anyway. Sealed Case (Espy), 121 F.3d 729 (D.C. Circuit 1997), they mention that there are two types of executive priviledge.


Consequently, we refer to the privileges asserted by the White House more specifically as the presidential communications privilege, or presidential privilege, and the deliberative process privilege. …

Presidential communication privilege. This doesn't apply based on the facts that Holder has testified to. President Obama knew nothing about this, so there was no communication therefore no communication privilege. If you think it does apply then you are saying Obama knew all along.


So that leaves deliberative process privilege.


The most frequent form of executive privilege raised in the judicial arena is the deliberative process privilege; it allows the government to withhold documents and other materials that would reveal “advisory opinions, recommendations and deliberations comprising part of a process by which governmental decisions and policies are formulated.”

...

The deliberative process privilege does not shield documents that simply state or explain a decision the government has already made or protect material that is purely factual….

The deliberative process privilege is a qualified privilege and can be overcome by a sufficient showing of need.

…

For example, where there is reason to believe the documents sought may shed light on government misconduct, ‘the privilege is routinely denied,’ on the grounds that shielding internal government deliberations in this context does not serve ‘the public’s interest in honest, effective government.’”



Uh oh... Lets read that again.


where there is reason to believe the documents sought may shed light on government misconduct, ‘the privilege is routinely denied,

I think we will eventually see those documents.

[diverdog]

US vs Nixon has nothing to do with this case unless you believe Obama was involved. Do you?

There are much newer court precedents anyway. Sealed Case (Espy), 121 F.3d 729 (D.C. Circuit 1997), they mention that there are two types of executive priviledge.



Presidential communication privilege. This doesn't apply based on the facts that Holder has testified to. President Obama knew nothing about this, so there was no communication therefore no communication privilege. If you think it does apply then you are saying Obama knew all along.


So that leaves deliberative process privilege.



Uh oh... Lets read that again.



I think we will eventually see those documents.

We shall see.

[cleller]

Holder's a liar liar pants on fire, defend that!

[sappstuf]

Understanding this calls for some “inside baseball” about how the Justice Department works. In particular, you’ll want to introduce yourself to “OCDETF,” a term near and dear to the DOJ heart, though one unknown to the public — and boy, does the administration ever want to keep it that way.

OCDETF stands for the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force. It was created during the Reagan administration to throw the coordinated muscle of Justice’s component investigative agencies — especially the FBI and the DEA — at domestic and international organized crime, a scourge that had been dramatically exacerbated by unprecedented drug-trafficking millions.

...


In fact, Fast and Furious was an OCDETF case. That made it a Main Justice case, not the orphan Arizona debacle of media portrayal.

The Justice Department is so high on OCDETF, and has been for 30 years, that the program has its own special place on the DOJ website. There, readers learn that OCDETF is “the centerpiece of the United States Attorney General’s drug strategy to reduce the availability of drugs by disrupting and dismantling major drug trafficking organizations and money laundering organizations and related criminal enterprises.” The most important of these “related enterprises” is the illegal acquisition and use of guns — which, besides being evidentiary staples of narcotics and RICO prosecutions, are coveted by investigators because they significantly increase jail sentences upon conviction.

The website goes on to explain that the “OCDETF strategy” is implemented “under the direction of the Deputy Attorney General” — second in command to Holder at DOJ (and, in fact, the position Holder himself occupied in the Clinton/Reno Justice Department).

Very interesting read from a former Assistant United States Attorney making the case that Holder knew about the case all along.

http://www.nationalreview.com/blogs/print/303808

[diverdog]

Understanding this calls for some “inside baseball” about how the Justice Department works. In particular, you’ll want to introduce yourself to “OCDETF,” a term near and dear to the DOJ heart, though one unknown to the public — and boy, does the administration ever want to keep it that way.

OCDETF stands for the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force. It was created during the Reagan administration to throw the coordinated muscle of Justice’s component investigative agencies — especially the FBI and the DEA — at domestic and international organized crime, a scourge that had been dramatically exacerbated by unprecedented drug-trafficking millions.

...



Very interesting read from a former Assistant United States Attorney making the case that Holder knew about the case all along.

http://www.nationalreview.com/blogs/print/303808

Oh great another opinion from a known obama hater. You got anything else?

So based on your article Bushes AG knew about gunwalking as well.

[sappstuf]

Oh great another opinion from a known obama hater. You got anything else?

So based on your article Bushes AG knew about gunwalking as well.

You very clearly did not read the article. If you would have, you would know exactly how ignorant that last sentence sounds.

It is actually a very informative article on how the Justice department works.

[Turd_Ferguson]

You very clearly did not read the article. If you would have, you would know exactly how ignorant that last sentence sounds.

It is actually a very informative article on how the Justice department works.DD's a hack. He's drank way too much Koolaid...

[soonercruiser]

Did some say "Nixon"???

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/SoonerCruiser_photos/ObamaasNixon.gif

[diverdog]

You very clearly did not read the article. If you would have, you would know exactly how ignorant that last sentence sounds.

It is actually a very informative article on how the Justice department works.

You are basing this on one known partisans opinion. I will wait and see what happens when this goes to court.

[diverdog]

DD's a hack. He's drank way too much Koolaid...

oops:



WASHINGTON (AP) — Congress doesn't have any evidence so far of a White House cover-up involving a botched gun-tracking operation, a top Republican said Sunday, countering the House speaker's assertion that President Barack Obama or his aides deliberately misled lawmakers."No we don't," said Rep. Darrell Issa, R.-Calif., in response to a question on "Fox News Sunday" about whether lawmakers had proof now to back Speaker John Boehner's claim about White House officials' involvement.
"And I hope they don't get involved. I hope this stays at Justice," said Issa, chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.
The Republican-led committee voted along party lines on Wednesday to cite Attorney General Eric Holder for contempt of Congress for not handing over all the material demanded in Operation Fast and Furious. Earlier that day, Obama had invoked executive privilege to withhold the documents, which concern how the department learned there were problems with an Arizona probe of gun-running into Mexico.
Boehner, R-Ohio, has said the full House would vote on the matter this coming week unless there was some resolution in the meantime. He also said that Obama's claim of executive privilege was "an admission the White House officials were involved in the decision that misled the Congress and covered up the truth."
But Issa said Sunday that he didn't have any evidence yet that Obama or White House aides were involved, and he made clear that his inquiry has focused, for now, on the Justice Department.
"If we can have those documents, we can postpone or cancel the contempt," he said.
The committee's top Democrat, Rep. Elijah Cummings of Maryland, said he thought the two sides could reach an agreement before the House vote and he called on Boehner to "come forth and show strong leadership" by sitting down with Holder.
During the committee's year-and-a-half-long investigation, the department has turned over 7,600 documents about the conduct of the Fast and Furious operation. The Justice Department initially told the panel that it did not use "gun-walking," a risky investigative technique aimed at tracking weapons to high-level arms traffickers who had long eluded prosecution.
In the case of Fast and Furious, agents lost track of several hundred weapons. Two of the guns that "walked" in the operation were found at the scene of the slaying of a U.S. border agent.



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[TitoMorelli]

oops:

Not sure I see any "oops's" there. Seems to me that Issa and others are right to wonder why the WH is claiming executive privilege on a matter in which it had up to now has made no claim of involvement.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Not sure I see any "oops's" there. Seems to me that Issa and others are right to wonder why the WH is claiming executive privilege on a matter in which it had up to now has made no claim of involvement.There is no "oop's". DD's a hack and will spin and deflect til the cow's come home...

[olevetonahill]

Awe did we hurt yer wittle feelers?

http://i51.tinypic.com/fwj32o.jpg

I dint think I hurt ya so bad ya had to Grey spek me
Now Im hurt

[sappstuf]

You are basing this on one known partisans opinion. I will wait and see what happens when this goes to court.

Instead of calling him a "partisan" and a "hater", why don't you try refuting specifics in his article? After all, he worked in Justice for years and specifically on OCDETF cases. National Review and their authors have a good reputation and have been around since the 1950s.

Even Gaffer recognized National Review as legit...

[diverdog]

Instead of calling him a "partisan" and a "hater", why don't you try refuting specifics in his article? After all, he worked in Justice for years and specifically on OCDETF cases. National Review and their authors have a good reputation and have been around since the 1950s.

Even Gaffer recognized National Review as legit...

Naw I will wait until this goes to court.

[pphilfran]

Instead of calling him a "partisan" and a "hater", why don't you try refuting specifics in his article? After all, he worked in Justice for years and specifically on OCDETF cases. National Review and their authors have a good reputation and have been around since the 1950s.

Even Gaffer recognized National Review as legit...

Even Gaffer? A better test would be Sybarite...

[sappstuf]

Even Gaffer? A better test would be Sybarite...

Tests in our reality would not do well in Sybarite's reality.

[okie52]

Even Gaffer? A better test would be Sybarite...

I enjoyed those two. I wonder whatever happened to them?...its been a few years now.

[pphilfran]

I enjoyed those two. I wonder whatever happened to them?...its been a few years now.

I used to see Gaffer post on some other boards from time to time, but it has been a while...Syb just disappeared...SlowNomad made the threesome...

[stoopified]

Yep, he sure did between 1947 and 1949.

FYI, the Roswell crash happened July 8, 1947... Coincidence? I think not...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Tinfoilhatdom.jpg/220px-Tinfoilhatdom.jpgneat trick considering Ike was President from 1952-1960.