Help me understand...

[rock on sooner]

how gay marriage and/or civil union for gays impacts or effects heterosexual
marriage. My bride of 35 years (in August) and I have discussed this and
cannot understand why it is such a divisive issue.

Don't need or want flames or non-sensical feedback....looking for legitimate
reasoning from Pubs (mostly) or anyone who can explain why this is such
a bad thing.

[KantoSooner]

It doesn't affect straight marriage. Not in the least.

[Midtowner]

More gay divorce = more congested divorce court dockets? It will now be 10% more difficult to find and book an open wedding venue?

Honestly, the only place I can see it really affecting anyone is on your private insurance. It might be a little more expensive if folks are allowed to add their spouses to their coverage.

[8timechamps]

More gay divorce = more congested divorce court dockets? It will now be 10% more difficult to find and book an open wedding venue?

Honestly, the only place I can see it really affecting anyone is on your private insurance. It might be a little more expensive if folks are allowed to add their spouses to their coverage.

Yep. However, some companies already allow additions for domestic partnerships. Otherwise, it won't affect anyone.

I realize this has been a hot-button in politics for awhile, but I've often had the same thought...who cares if we "legalize" gay marriage?! There are bigger fish to fry.

[Midtowner]

It's an emotional issue with religious implications. Political gold for the Christianists. It's also political gold for the Dems as a rapidly growing segment of the population is in favor of equal rights for homosexuals.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Literally none

[8timechamps]

It's an emotional issue with religious implications. Political gold for the Christianists. It's also political gold for the Dems as a rapidly growing segment of the population is in favor of equal rights for homosexuals.

I know all of that, which is what makes the argument even more foolish. Absolutely none of those folks would be affected by the legalization of gay marriage.

I consider myself a Christian, and I have to laugh at the majority of the "Christians" on the internet. Could there be a more volatile mix than politics and religion?!

[Midtowner]

Could there be a more volatile mix than politics and religion?!

Lots of folks aren't really capable of compartmentalizing politics and religion. Consider it from a standpoint where those two things are one in the same and you can perhaps empathize. In that context, gay marriage would affect how they perceive things in their religion and that would have some negative impact on them.

The same was true for interracial marriage 50 years ago.

The same was true for slavery 150 years ago.

Society evolves.

[pphilfran]

What will it evolve to in the next 50 years....think out of the box... ;)

[rock on sooner]

Mid. the interracial marriage was the thing that stuck in my mind and the
wife and I talked about that...even today some will ask what the effect will
be for the kids of interracial marriage. Two doors down from me is that very
thing...great family...even greater kids. Simply cannot grasp the vitriol that
in Iowa spews from the group that worked to toss the three justices that said
(unanamiously) with the rest of the Supreme Court that to not allow gay marriage
violated the Iowa constitution. That group will/is ready to attack the next justice
to stand for retention. Hard to believe that in this time so many narrow minded
people can still voice such misguided poison and others embrace it. Truly saddens
me that in my later years we haven't as a society gotten better after all the things
the last 40 years have put in front of us. May God have mercy....

[olevetonahill]

Im not gonna get in a Big debate here
But comes down to RELIGION pure and simple

[LiveLaughLove]

OK, as a resident nutso Christian, I'll bite.

I don't want my kids going to hell doing something that society thinks is ok and acceptable. Plain and simple.

I've said this befire but I'll repeat it here.

My daughter is about to graduate from Mustang HS. I asked her awhile back if kids at her school were openly gay or something to that affect. She said it was the "fad" to try out homosexuality and you weren't cool if you wouldn't at least try it.

There is no coincedence that as the homosexual movement has become more mainstream this attitude amongst the young people has emerged when that has never been the case before.

I don't care at all what homosexuals do inside their own homes. Not interested in it outside of praying for them.

But it's not inside their homes, its out and very in your face, and this isn't going to stop. It's already happening that street preachers are being arrested (Portland,OR) for preaching against homosexuality as hate speech.

It won't be long before Christianity will be criminalized if we will not disavow parts of the Bible.

I know I am going to be mocked as hysterical, but all you have to do is look to Europe and Canada and that's where we are heading.

As for segregating our religion from politics, how can we? We aren't sheep to just be led to the slaughter without a fight (political not literal). The politics of this affect us tremendously.

I personally don't care whether homosexuals marry, when isolated in and of itself. But it's not isolated in and of itself. Beyond the spiritual it has huge real ramifications for Christians and Christianity in America.

Flame away, I don't really care at this point. Tell me how it's up to me to raise my kids right. Yeah, I know and I do. I also know the power of peer pressure and a President saying it's ok. Oral sex went rampant with teens after Clinton/Lewinsky, and he said it wasn't sex.

[Ton Loc]

Gay marriage is nothing more than a distraction. In a few years people will look back on it like segregated water fountains. "WTF were we thinking?"

It makes for fun discussions between the retards running the government. (Who really couldn't care less) Plus, the rushtards eat that crap up.

[Midtowner]

OK, as a resident nutso Christian, I'll bite.

I don't want my kids going to hell doing something that society thinks is ok and acceptable. Plain and simple.

I've said this befire but I'll repeat it here.

My daughter is about to graduate from Mustang HS. I asked her awhile back if kids at her school were openly gay or something to that affect. She said it was the "fad" to try out interracial relationships and you weren't cool if you wouldn't at least try it.

There is no coincedence that as the interracial marriage movement has become more mainstream this attitude amongst the young people has emerged when that has never been the case before.

I don't care at all what homosexuals do inside their own homes. Not interested in it outside of praying for them.

But it's not inside their homes, its out and very in your face, and this isn't going to stop. It's already happening that street preachers are being arrested (Portland,OR) for preaching against homosexuality as hate speech.

It won't be long before Christianity will be criminalized if we will not disavow parts of the Bible.

I know I am going to be mocked as hysterical, but all you have to do is look to Europe and Canada and that's where we are heading.

As for segregating our religion from politics, how can we? We aren't sheep to just be led to the slaughter without a fight (political not literal). The politics of this affect us tremendously.

I personally don't care whether blacks and whites marry, when isolated in and of itself. But it's not isolated in and of itself. Beyond the spiritual it has huge real ramifications for Christians and Christianity in America.

Flame away, I don't really care at this point. Tell me how it's up to me to raise my kids right. Yeah, I know and I do. I also know the power of peer pressure and a President saying it's ok. Blacka and white sex went rampant with teens after Kirk and Uhura kissed, and he said it wasn't sex.

Hate to mock, but someone could have easily said that circa 1950 ('cept for the Kirk and Uhura part, but I'm young and couldn't think of a better pop culture reference).

That said, not mocking, thanks for your reply. Do you think you can raise your kids not to be gay? What if one of your children came out as gay or (if you think that can happen) chose to be so? Would you still feel the same?

How about atheists? Do you think their rights should be so proscribed?

As far as disavowing parts of the Bible is concerned, really? We still have the 1st Amendment. An arrest may have happened, not a conviction. You can't get that much mileage out of it.

I just can't see how some Christians can stop other Christians from marrying...

[soonercruiser]

Im not gonna get in a Big debate here
But comes down to RELIGION pure and simple

THIS!

What is the English derivation or source of the word "marriage".
Where did it come from? How was it used? What is the basic premise, the Bible, tradition?
Why must liberal regressives always invent new words for evil and bad judgement, and twist the meaning of words and meanings that already exist???

The answer is always the same!
Marriage existed in the Judeo-Christian culture and laws long before the United States, or the Constitution ever existed!
Why not call gay marriage just a civil union, some legal term, or just something else????
After all, it's only about getting the benefits like insurance, or property rights isn't it?

No! It's just more "in your face" culture crap attacks from the progressisve left.
Other wise, they would be happy with the rights, and no the bastardization of the word "marriage".

[LiveLaughLove]

Well, the difference would be that the Bible doesn't call a mixed race marriage an abomination. I know it's easy to equate the two in the secular world and that's fine.

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, and that's where the rub is. We are told certain things are sin and certain thing's are not. If you think it's hocus pocus mumbo jumbo that's your thing. I know it's not.

Incidently, my grandparents were a mixed marriage (full blood Chickasaw and Half blood Irish/German). They were told by both sides not to marry, but did any way. I'm glad they did. If some of my ancestors married as gays, no one would know since there would be no progeny from that union.

[Ton Loc]

Well, the difference would be that the Bible doesn't call a mixed race marriage an abomination. I know it's easy to equate the two in the secular world and that's fine.

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, and that's where the rub is. We are told certain things are sin and certain thing's are not. If you think it's hocus pocus mumbo jumbo that's your thing. I know it's not.

Incidently, my grandparents were a mixed marriage (full blood Chickasaw and Half blood Irish/German). They were told by both sides not to marry, but did any way. I'm glad they did. If some of my ancestors married as gays, no one would know since there would be no progeny from that union.

If we didn't mix it up a bit there would be a lot of genetic freaks out there. And not Blake Griffin freaks. Sloth freaks.

[LiveLaughLove]

If we didn't mix it up a bit there would be a lot of genetic freaks out there. And not Blake Griffin freaks. Sloth freaks.

Yep. Just as an aside, saw a documentary about kids that were conceived during the viet nam war. They were almost every one, beautiful children. They were half vietnamese and half American (black, white, and all others from here I assume).

I've never forgotten that even though it's been years ago that I saw it and don't even recall the name of it. It was just about their lives, some here and some still over there.

[LiveLaughLove]

And the brainwashing of the youth begins:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/14/california-gay-history-law-jerry-brown_n_898745.html

Of course, it's California.

Why make a law where you have to mention the sexuality of someone? Answer, because it is an agenda that is not going to stop. If you think they are going to be ok with churchs preaching that homosexuality is a mortal sin, you are either naive or choose to be blind to it or on their side.

[Ton Loc]

And the brainwashing of the youth begins:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/14/california-gay-history-law-jerry-brown_n_898745.html

Of course, it's California.

Why make a law where you have to mention the sexuality of someone? Answer, because it is an agenda that is not going to stop. If you think they are going to be ok with churchs preaching that homosexuality is a mortal sin, you are either naive or choose to be blind to it or on their side.

I'm against any agenda pushing what should be a personal subject.

Jeez, just let the gays get married and tell them to quit their bitching. Besides, more chicks for me.

[olevetonahill]

Yep. Just as an aside, saw a documentary about kids that were conceived during the viet nam war. They were almost every one, beautiful children. They were half vietnamese and half American (black, white, and all others from here I assume).

I've never forgotten that even though it's been years ago that I saw it and don't even recall the name of it. It was just about their lives, some here and some still over there.

Believe that was called
" Green Eyes"

[LiveLaughLove]

Believe that was called
" Green Eyes"

Thanks vet.

[LiveLaughLove]

I'm against any agenda pushing what should be a personal subject.

Jeez, just let the gays get married and tell them to quit their bitching. Besides, more chicks for me.

I would be completely for that. The problem is it is not going to stop there and we all know it.

Listen to Dan Savage. He seeths with hatred for Christianity. He is not stopping until it is abolished or criminalized out of existence.

[cleller]

LiveLaughLove- because you don't approve of the widespread acceptance of gay issues, you are fair game to be attacked. You've done nothing but speak your feelings, the same as everyone else. For some reason, though, harboring those feelings has become unacceptable by the louder voices of our society.

Strange how some "minority" positions are defended, and others thrown to the wolves.

[rock on sooner]

Just read all the input on this thread and, interestingly, the back and forth
here is much the same as I hear from various "leaders". My conclusion is
the same as some on here....live and let live. Doesn't affect my marriage
one bit. Doesn't harm anyone at all. Thanks for rational, intelligent discourse.

[Midtowner]

Well, the difference would be that the Bible doesn't call a mixed race marriage an abomination. I know it's easy to equate the two in the secular world and that's fine.

It used to, according to many Christians.

Genesis 28:1: "And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan."

Leviticus 19:19: "Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind ..."

Deuteronomy 7:2-3: "And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

Deuteronomy 22:9: "Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled."

Deuteronomy 23:2: "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

Jeremiah 13:23: "Can an Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Can a leopard take away its spots? Neither can you start doing good, for you have always done evil."

Acts 17:24-26: "God ... hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation ..."

[KantoSooner]

It seems that the opposition to gay marriage is based on a belief that, firstly, there is a biblical injunction against it and that countenancing it thus condemns all citizens of our nation to holy wrath. And, secondly, that public displays of 'gay' behaviour somehow cause our impressionable youth to become gay.

As to the first, it is interesting to see the breadth of opinion in the Christian community, with some congregations ordaining openly gay officiants. So, it is pretty clear that not all Christians believe that god is a gay basher. And that sets aside all of the rest of us who are non-Christians. Are we to live under the rules of some sub-sect of Christianity? Happily, we do not yet live in a theocracy and our laws are written and interpreted by government officers who do not owe their position to murky church cabals of thin-lipped judgemental old prunes. We all must put up with things we don't like in the law. You believe in your comic book, I'll believe in mine. Neither of us gets the right to impose our god, spiderman or Zippy the Pinhead on anyone else. Get over it.

As to the second, one need look only at the incidence of gay orientation in the children (both natural and adopted) of gay parents. Surprise! It's the same as the incidence of 'gayness' in the general population. (Stanford, 2003 (?I think)). Thus we are left with one of two conclusions: either exposure to 'gayness' or gay lifestyles has absolutely no impact on impressionable children or ALL our parents are secretly gay and we've all been exposed to 'gayness' without knowing it but 90% of us have heroically gone on to be rampant heterosexuals.

[49r]

...IT'S NOT ADAM AND STEVE!!!! :mad:

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

I would be completely for that. The problem is it is not going to stop there and we all know it.

Listen to Dan Savage. He seeths with hatred for Christianity. He is not stopping until it is abolished or criminalized out of existence.
Christians have a persecution complex that's either left over from when you actually were a persecuted minority, or somehow you feel closer to Jesus when you crucify yourself on the cross of happy holidays. For every Dan Savage there's a Timothy Dolan or Billy Graham on the other side that seems just as fanatical. Exactly what political power does Dan Savage have to criminalize Christianity, or what has he said that makes you believe this? I'd be willing to bet there have been no laws abolishing or criminalizing any aspect of Christianity in this country.

[okie52]

Christians have a persecution complex that's either left over from when you actually were a persecuted minority, or somehow you feel closer to Jesus when you crucify yourself on the cross of happy holidays.

Do you have a festivus tree?

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Do you have a festivus tree?
**** that I have a christmas tree

[Ton Loc]

Christians have a persecution complex that's either left over from when you actually were a persecuted minority, or somehow you feel closer to Jesus when you crucify yourself on the cross of happy holidays. For every Dan Savage there's a Timothy Dolan or Billy Graham on the other side that seems just as fanatical. Exactly what political power does Dan Savage have to criminalize Christianity, or what has he said that makes you believe this? I'd be willing to bet there have been no laws abolishing or criminalizing any aspect of Christianity in this country.

It always did crack me up when I went to church and the message was that Christianity was under attack. Under attack, by who?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Christians in America have no idea what persecution is.

[jkjsooner]

My daughter is about to graduate from Mustang HS. I asked her awhile back if kids at her school were openly gay or something to that affect. She said it was the "fad" to try out homosexuality and you weren't cool if you wouldn't at least try it.

First off, I doubt you'll find a single straight male who makes that statement - at least not about himself or other guys.

I can promise you that accepting homosexuality isn't going to make guys want to experiment. A straight guy is not wired that way.

As for women, this has almost nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with sexual freedom and/or trying to please the guys.

Unlike how straight men view members of their own sex, women have always found the female body to be attractive. If they experiment with it it has almost nothing to do with homosexuality and even less to do with gay marriage.


There is no coincedence that as the interracial marriage movement has become more mainstream this attitude amongst the young people has emerged when that has never been the case before.

From a psychological perspective, gay marriage can't be compared to interracial marriage. Whether they married or not, there has always been interracial attraction. Plenty of slave owners had relations with the slaves.

As I said above, a straight man isn't going to turn gay just because society changed the way homosexuality is viewed.

[KantoSooner]

A good argument could be made that Chritianity, far from being persecuted, has already won.
Let's tot up the score.

Christianity has a hammer lock grip on North and South America, Europe, and Australia. It is the fastest growing religion in Africa, far outpacing Islam. Thus Christianity 'owns' everything outside of Asia that is worth owning as far as population and wealth is concerned.

Islam is effectively a religion of the poor, the uneducated and the unwashed. It's highpoint in influencing world affairs was during the Middle Ages when Europe called in sick and the Mongols and Chinese saw no reason to bother with exterpating dwellers of lands so marginal that goat husbandry was pretty much the aspirational pinnacle of life.

Buddhism has never really broken out of being an Asian and Hollywood thing. Thailand, China, Korea and Japan and....well that's that. And they aren't without competition in their home stadiums.

Hinduism is even more limited. You kind of, sort of, have to be born an Indian. Big pool to operate in, but they aren't threatening to spread out into, say, Indiana, anytime soon.

Judaism. Hinduism writ small in terms of influence. Outside of a bizarre grip on US media and political structures, they are about 0.5% of the world pop and fading.

So, where are the Christians being persecuted? They don't just call the global tune, they own the damn band. Still, Christians are being killed. Where? In places like Nigeria, India, Central Asia and Indonesia. Why? Well, those are borderlands essentially between the Christian world and the Islamic and Hindu regions within that area. Christians are also stepped on, not gently, in parts of China. Why? Well, two no-no's: first they challenge the central government's authority. Never particularly smart to stick your finger into a Mandarin's eye, repeatedly. And the ideology is not important. Chinese rulers just don't like that crap and will let you know about it. Second, once again, Christians find themselves in an area that was historically Buddhist/Taoist.

So, far from being persecuted, the violence and nastiness directed against Christians in various off-brand parts of the world is not any threat; it is instead, the death rattle of competing religions as they face a juggernaut with a 1700 year winning streak behind it.

[okie52]

A good argument could be made that Chritianity, far from being persecuted, has already won.
Let's tot up the score.

Christianity has a hammer lock grip on North and South America, Europe, and Australia. It is the fastest growing religion in Africa, far outpacing Islam. Thus Christianity 'owns' everything outside of Asia that is worth owning as far as population and wealth is concerned.

Islam is effectively a religion of the poor, the uneducated and the unwashed. It's highpoint in influencing world affairs was during the Middle Ages when Europe called in sick and the Mongols and Chinese saw no reason to bother with exterpating dwellers of lands so marginal that goat husbandry was pretty much the aspirational pinnacle of life.

Buddhism has never really broken out of being an Asian and Hollywood thing. Thailand, China, Korea and Japan and....well that's that. And they aren't without competition in their home stadiums.

Hinduism is even more limited. You kind of, sort of, have to be born an Indian. Big pool to operate in, but they aren't threatening to spread out into, say, Indiana, anytime soon.

Judaism. Hinduism writ small in terms of influence. Outside of a bizarre grip on US media and political structures, they are about 0.5% of the world pop and fading.

So, where are the Christians being persecuted? They don't just call the global tune, they own the damn band. Still, Christians are being killed. Where? In places like Nigeria, India, Central Asia and Indonesia. Why? Well, those are borderlands essentially between the Christian world and the Islamic and Hindu regions within that area. Christians are also stepped on, not gently, in parts of China. Why? Well, two no-no's: first they challenge the central government's authority. Never particularly smart to stick your finger into a Mandarin's eye, repeatedly. And the ideology is not important. Chinese rulers just don't like that crap and will let you know about it. Second, once again, Christians find themselves in an area that was historically Buddhist/Taoist.

So, far from being persecuted, the violence and nastiness directed against Christians in various off-brand parts of the world is not any threat; it is instead, the death rattle of competing religions as they face a juggernaut with a 1700 year winning streak behind it.

From what I've read Christianity has been on the decline in Europe.

[badger]

I think there's some common ground among the gay marriage crowd and the anti-gay marriage crowd.

Neither side wants the other's views imposed on the other.

People that want gay marriage do not want to be told that to be gay is to go to hell and that it is against the Bible, etc. etc. People that are against marriage don't want to have to hear about how proud people are to be gay, how they have a right to be gay, etc. etc.

I personally don't think that gay marriage is a bad thing, nor are gay rights, being gay, etc. etc. But to be honest, I think I might be growing tired of the discussion. Who really cares if you are sexually attracted to men or women. I really don't, because I've already found the perfect spouse and am not seeking another (plural marriage is also a discussion I would quickly tire of if it was talked about as much as gay marriage). Do whatever you will. You don't need to tell me about it, because quite frankly, going to hell or not? It's not up to me to decide.

[virginiasooner]

A good argument could be made that Chritianity, far from being persecuted, has already won.
Let's tot up the score.

Christianity has a hammer lock grip on North and South America, Europe, and Australia. It is the fastest growing religion in Africa, far outpacing Islam. Thus Christianity 'owns' everything outside of Asia that is worth owning as far as population and wealth is concerned.

Islam is effectively a religion of the poor, the uneducated and the unwashed. It's highpoint in influencing world affairs was during the Middle Ages when Europe called in sick and the Mongols and Chinese saw no reason to bother with exterpating dwellers of lands so marginal that goat husbandry was pretty much the aspirational pinnacle of life.

Buddhism has never really broken out of being an Asian and Hollywood thing. Thailand, China, Korea and Japan and....well that's that. And they aren't without competition in their home stadiums.

Hinduism is even more limited. You kind of, sort of, have to be born an Indian. Big pool to operate in, but they aren't threatening to spread out into, say, Indiana, anytime soon.

Judaism. Hinduism writ small in terms of influence. Outside of a bizarre grip on US media and political structures, they are about 0.5% of the world pop and fading.

So, where are the Christians being persecuted? They don't just call the global tune, they own the damn band. Still, Christians are being killed. Where? In places like Nigeria, India, Central Asia and Indonesia. Why? Well, those are borderlands essentially between the Christian world and the Islamic and Hindu regions within that area. Christians are also stepped on, not gently, in parts of China. Why? Well, two no-no's: first they challenge the central government's authority. Never particularly smart to stick your finger into a Mandarin's eye, repeatedly. And the ideology is not important. Chinese rulers just don't like that crap and will let you know about it. Second, once again, Christians find themselves in an area that was historically Buddhist/Taoist.

So, far from being persecuted, the violence and nastiness directed against Christians in various off-brand parts of the world is not any threat; it is instead, the death rattle of competing religions as they face a juggernaut with a 1700 year winning streak behind it.

But since women are no longer chattel property and slavery is illegal, the government is out to destroy Christianity! (that was sarcasm, btw) And now the government is saying that Christians have to be nice to gay people! (sarcasm again) Next thing you know, kids won't be able to gang up on their swishy classmates who are clumsy in gym class -- and if they are caught, they could be charged with assault and a hate crime! Oh, the humanity!

[jkjsooner]

I find it funny when other Christians talk about how they're persecuted. Criticism is persecution. Allowing freedoms that may conflict with their views on Christianity is persecution. An athiest mocking them is persecution.

Sorry but every group gets criticized, mocked, and fails to always get their way.

In places where Christians are truly persecuted, the persecution is hardly limited to Christianity. In some of the Islamic world you can be persecuted for being anything other than a practicing Muslim. In parts of the old Communist world you can be persecuted for practicing any religion.

[KantoSooner]

Okie52,
Strangely, the only thing that is 'defeating' Christianity is non-religion. It's like Christians get bored once they won. Europe is certainly not becoming more Buddhist or Islamic at the cost to Christianity, its just becoming less religious.
And Christians clearly still call most of the shots culturally and don't suffer much in the way of persecution in Europe.
So it's still in the 'win' column.

[soonercruiser]

Christians have a persecution complex that's either left over from when you actually were a persecuted minority, or somehow you feel closer to Jesus when you crucify yourself on the cross of happy holidays. For every Dan Savage there's a Timothy Dolan or Billy Graham on the other side that seems just as fanatical. Exactly what political power does Dan Savage have to criminalize Christianity, or what has he said that makes you believe this? I'd be willing to bet there have been no laws abolishing or criminalizing any aspect of Christianity in this country.

Gays have a persecution complex....
The poor have a persecution complex....
Blacks have a persecution complex....
Obama has a persecution complex....
Liberals have a persecution complex...
Everybody has a "complex"!

But, Christians dare not!
:02.47-tranquillity:

[Midtowner]

Gays have a persecution complex....
The poor have a persecution complex....
Blacks have a persecution complex....
Obama has a persecution complex....
Liberals have a persecution complex...
Everybody has a "complex"!

But, Christians dare not!
:02.47-tranquillity:

You missed his point completely.

And the case cannot be made that Christians are being persecuted in this country except maybe in certain anecdotal instances where it's illegal to do what some state official does.

That said, North Carolina voted the other day to ensure the gays won't receive equal protection under the law.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Gays have a persecution complex....
The poor have a persecution complex....
Blacks have a persecution complex....
Obama has a persecution complex....
Liberals have a persecution complex...
Everybody has a "complex"!

But, Christians dare not!
:02.47-tranquillity:
Only one of those groups you listed is unequal under the law, so anyone else you've listed off does indeed fall under the category of an "imagined complex".

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I'm against any agenda pushing what should be a personal subject.

Jeez, just let the gays get married and tell them to quit their bitching. Besides, more chicks for me.

I think this is part of the reaction against it as well. I go to Church every Sunday (well most Sundays) and I don't GAS if the gays marry. Just do it and get the **** out of my face.

[okie52]

Only one of those groups you listed is unequal under the law, so anyone else you've listed off does indeed fall under the category of an "imagined complex".

Well the gays have hate crimes protection so they are little more than equal.

[Position Limit]

what it comes down to is that republicans have an unusual xenophobic disposition about them. they need someone to keep down to feel better about themselves. they're usually on the wrong side of history about most things. this will be just another one of many. what's more embarrassing is they cloak themselves in christianity for protection in their beliefs. usually when somebody relies on the bible for anything, especially for the word of god they have no idea how truly pathetic and phony they are. my guess for the future zenophobic political votes, the victims will be anybody of latin american heritage. there will be a massive onslaught. bible passages will be rewritten for the 10,000th time to keep the suckers believing. i hope this answers the op question.

[okie52]

Ahh, the future. How glorious it will be when political correctness has become the law of the land and 12,000,000 undocumented, temporarily nationally displaced, dream act recipients, English language challenged, migrant entrepreneurs/workers receive their own special protection under hate crimes law and the "I word" is forever banned from US language.

[Position Limit]

Ahh, the future. How glorious it will be when political correctness has become the law of the land and 12,000,000 undocumented, temporarily nationally displaced, dream act recipients, English language challenged, migrant entrepreneurs/workers receive their own special protection under hate crimes law and the "I word" is forever banned from US language.

ladies and gentlemen, exhibit A. the only thing displaced is your fear and loathing. you got somebody else mow the grass on your cul-de-sac? xenophobia. thanks for backing me up okie52......

[LiveLaughLove]

what it comes down to is that republicans have an unusual xenophobic disposition about them. they need someone to keep down to feel better about themselves. they're usually on the wrong side of history about most things. this will be just another one of many. what's more embarrassing is they cloak themselves in christianity for protection in their beliefs. usually when somebody relies on the bible for anything, especially for the word of god they have no idea how truly pathetic and phony they are. my guess for the future zenophobic political votes, the victims will be anybody of latin american heritage. there will be a massive onslaught. bible passages will be rewritten for the 10,000th time to keep the suckers believing. i hope this answers the op question.

This is about the biggest pile of idiotic dung that has ever been posted that I have read here. You obviously have zero clue about what Christians believe. You have some demagogic biased view of what you have been told to think about them, but it's not even close to the truth.

I now feel like the game show host that had to listen to Adam Sandler's inane stupid answers. You just sounded like a composite of Olbermann, Maddow, Murray Ohare, and probably 10 different professors that told you how to think like a good little fascist (all the while telling you you were thinking for yourself).

[okie52]

ladies and gentlemen, exhibit A. the only thing displaced is your fear and loathing. you got somebody else mow the grass on your cul-de-sac? xenophobia. thanks for backing me up okie52......

Glad to help you there PL. You seem to struggle with some concepts as do most PC libs. The lefty use of xenophobia is always good for a laugh and it covers almost every situation...you know how it goes..xenophobia is to be against Obama, against hate crimes, against illegal immigration, against the dream act...well you know the drill.

12,000,000 people accidentally "found" themselves in the US....they still don't know how it happened nor do any of the PC crowd.


Do you travel to the border to help set up rest stations for all those weary migrant workers as they cross the border or just donate to their worthy cause?

He11, you haven't even thrown out the socialist straw man yet...saving it for later?

[soonerhubs]

Is the Hideaway Pizza in Norman any good? The one in Stilly isn't so bad.

[Midtowner]

You obviously have zero clue about what Christians believe.

I went ahead and cut out the extremely Christ-like personal attacks.

So what is it that Christians believe and why is it that Christians feel righteous in forcing their views on folks who disagree when those folks behaving in the supposedly unchristian manner would have zero actual effect on said Christians?

[Midtowner]

(not my list, but it makes valid points)
Top 10 Reasons to Ban Gay Marriage:

1. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has standing and can sign a marriage contract.

4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.

5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay coupes, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we only have one religion in America.

9. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

[Position Limit]

midtowner,

obvious hypocrisy and irony will not go far with the bible bunch. they seem to know what god thinks, likes, speaks, hates, and admires about everything in existence. and if it hasnt been spelled out in their guide to life (bible), they will interpret on the fly. guys like live laugh and love have no idea how ironic he is with a handle like that. missionary position is a source of guilt for him and his ilk. gays just need to pray it out. all the while sane people question the roots of his homophobia.

[LiveLaughLove]

I went ahead and cut out the extremely Christ-like personal attacks.

So what is it that Christians believe and why is it that Christians feel righteous in forcing their views on folks who disagree when those folks behaving in the supposedly unchristian manner would have zero actual effect on said Christians?

Ah yes, the "if you defend yourself you aren't a Christian" theme. I forgot we are supposed to sit in the back of the bus and shut up.

Sorry. I promise to try and remember that in the future. I am slow learner though.

I tend to give what I get. Anyone calling the people that I know and love in my life pathetic and phony is going to get some back, because they have no clue what they are talking about.

My family and friends are the best people I know and they almost to a person are good Christian folks.

[LiveLaughLove]

(not my list, but it makes valid points)
Top 10 Reasons to Ban Gay Marriage:

1. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has standing and can sign a marriage contract.

4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.

5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay coupes, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we only have one religion in America.

9. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

Now on to you.

I sincerely hope for your clients sake's that you are a better lawyer than online debater.

Time and time again you set up straw men that don't exist and knock them down when no one has said anything remotely close to what you claim they are saying.

I can't imagine any judge worth his salt allowing that in court, but I guess anything is possible these days.

I know you guys want Christians to butt out of politics and just sit and let you do whatever you want, but it's not happening.

We have as much right to argue and fight for our beliefs as anyone and we will exercise them. Sorry again. (not really)

[LiveLaughLove]

midtowner,

obvious hypocrisy and irony will not go far with the bible bunch. they seem to know what god thinks, likes, speaks, hates, and admires about everything in existence. and if it hasnt been spelled out in their guide to life (bible), they will interpret on the fly. guys like live laugh and love have no idea how ironic he is with a handle like that. missionary position is a source of guilt for him and his ilk. gays just need to pray it out. all the while sane people question the roots of his homophobia.

Are you really this stupid or are you just a troll? My handle was a joke between my wife and I, so I know quite a bit more about it and how it came to pass than you. However like most liberals you think you know everything, you think you are superior morally and intellectually, and we peasants should just fall in line and shut up. Not happenin' butch.

The more I read from you liberals the more certain I am that you don't have a clue about much of anything.

[8timechamps]

(not my list, but it makes valid points)
Top 10 Reasons to Ban Gay Marriage:

1. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has standing and can sign a marriage contract.

4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.

5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay coupes, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we only have one religion in America.

9. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

I love this list.

[Midtowner]

Now on to you.

And that's where you admit the bankruptcy of your position. Christian? All you can do is attack me? Tell me why I'm wrong. When did Christ acted like the butthurt child you're acting like?

[yermom]

Ah yes, the "if you defend yourself you aren't a Christian" theme. I forgot we are supposed to sit in the back of the bus and shut up.

Sorry. I promise to try and remember that in the future. I am slow learner though.

I tend to give what I get. Anyone calling the people that I know and love in my life pathetic and phony is going to get some back, because they have no clue what they are talking about.

My family and friends are the best people I know and they almost to a person are good Christian folks.

answer the question. what does a couple of gays getting married have to do with you? "help me understand" why you think the government denying someone else rights, that you have, based on your religious beliefs is a valid thing

[LiveLaughLove]

And that's where you admit the bankruptcy of your position. Christian? All you can do is attack me? Tell me why I'm wrong. When did Christ acted like the butthurt child you're acting like?

You have no concept of Christianity beyond maybe an Easter service or two, so it's not surprising that you believe Christ was some meek little sheep led to the slaughter and didn't defend himself.

He stood up to the pharisee's and called them what they were. He "attacked" them repeatedly to the point where they wanted him dead. Not banished, not jailed, dead. He didn't get that animus from them by sitting with his hands folded and just letting them walk all over him. He is a man's man, no doubt about it.

The last book of the Bible is called The Revelation of Jesus Christ. We shorten it to "Revelations" making it sound like some Nostradamus book, but that's not what it is. It is the revealing of the true King of Kings in all of his glory and all of his wrath and anger. It isn't a pretty sight for us. He rides on a horse wielding a double edged sword slaying all of those that have opposed him. He opens the seals slaying over half of the world. Sounds like an attack to me.

John the Beloved was also called John, Son of Thunder because he didn't take peoples crap and he was loud and in your face about it. Yet he was beloved by Christ and was asked by him to take care of his mother Mary.

Paul was very in your face. Peter used a sword and wacked a dudes ear (Christ did admonish him and healed the man, but more for Peters sake than the mans).

You see, the pablum you people try to feed about the Jesus that just smiled and took it (some sort of hippy love-in socialist type), just isn't true. For sure, he loves all of us and wishes us all to go to heaven. For sure, he suffered the little children to come unto him. For sure, he hung with the sinners to try and convert them. But he didn't take anybodies crap, and neither will I. He said if you are lukewarm I will spew you from my mouth. The sentence on all of our heads is death. That's HIS sentence on you and me. Sounds like an attack to me.

So attack you? I guess if speaking the truth about your weak arguments is attacking, then right on. You better believe I'm going to call a spade a spade.

You are a deflector and a straw man arguer. You have no real substance that I can tell from what you post on here except to try and belittle everyone and then expect us to take it.

As you so gladly tell people when they speak about things in your arena, the Bible is mine, and you sir/madam are just plain ignorant about it. Try and limit yourself to things you actually know. Well, things you actually think you know anyway. This most definitely is not one of them.

[LiveLaughLove]

answer the question. what does a couple of gays getting married have to do with you? "help me understand" why you think the government denying someone else rights, that you have, based on your religious beliefs is a valid thing

I can't help you understand anything. Get a good Study Bible and start reading it daily and praying for clarity.

[yermom]

oh, so you want to talk about the Bible?

http://bible.cc/john/18-36.htm

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

http://bible.cc/matthew/22-21.htm

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

seems the separation of church and state has been pushed longer than you'd like to believe.

you want to condemn gays, fine, just leave the government out of it. just keep your silly superstitions in your church and personal life, please.

[cleller]

oh, so you want to talk about the Bible?

http://bible.cc/john/18-36.htm


http://bible.cc/matthew/22-21.htm


seems the separation of church and state has been pushed longer than you'd like to believe.

you want to condemn gays, fine, just leave the government out of it. just keep your silly superstitions in your church and personal life, please.

I'm not here to spread condemnation, but if you're going to use the Bible as a reference for support, you may regret it. I'd expect some passages from Leviticus to be hurled back at you.

Some disreputable reporter did this to great effect against Manny Pacquiao:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=51584

[Midtowner]

You have no concept of Christianity beyond maybe an Easter service or two, so it's not surprising that you believe Christ was some meek little sheep led to the slaughter and didn't defend himself.

Really? Cry me another river.

And then tell me why you're right to force your theology upon others when all they're asking is to be treated equally under the law in a way which cannot possibly affect you. You haven't done it. All you've said is that you have a right to defend your values. Okay? Why do your values include forcing your religion down someone else's throat when their acting contra to your religion has no effect whatsoever on it?

As previously mentioned, the only way you're possibly affected here is by having some gay fellow employees be allowed to place their spouses on their group insurance plan. That's the only effect I can think of. Can you think of another?

[olevetonahill]

1 Corinthians 1:18

New International Version (NIV)
Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

[Midtowner]

Again, this ain't a theocracy. If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex. Otherwise, aside from the insurance example, how does it affect you? This is the same debate we had with interracial marriage. Exactly the same.

[soonerhubs]

My take on this: Spread the good word. Don't legislate it!

If you hold a religious conviction and you love your neighbors, share that conviction. If you seek the passage of these laws, but don't witness to others at every opportunity, then you really are a hypocrite. Just saying... :)

[cleller]

You see, the pablum you people try to feed about the Jesus that just smiled and took it (some sort of hippy love-in socialist type), just isn't true. For sure, he loves all of us and wishes us all to go to heaven. For sure, he suffered the little children to come unto him. For sure, he hung with the sinners to try and convert them. But he didn't take anybodies crap, and neither will I. He said if you are lukewarm I will spew you from my mouth. The sentence on all of our heads is death. That's HIS sentence on you and me. Sounds like an attack to me.

So attack you? I guess if speaking the truth about your weak arguments is attacking, then right on. You better believe I'm going to call a spade a spade.

You are a deflector and a straw man arguer. You have no real substance that I can tell from what you post on here except to try and belittle everyone and then expect us to take it.



Did I just hear thunder? Pour it on, Moses!

[yermom]

I'm not here to spread condemnation, but if you're going to use the Bible as a reference for support, you may regret it. I'd expect some passages from Leviticus to be hurled back at you.

Some disreputable reporter did this to great effect against Manny Pacquiao:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=51584

everyone knows that Leviticus is before the New Covenant and doesn't count. that's why you don't have to shun your wife once a month and you are free to eat all the lobster and pork you want. somehow sodomy was left on the ban list to be relevant from all those rules.

one thing i did miss was were polygamy became such a no-no. it seemed okay for Jacob and Job. Jacob's story really is a good one for the sanctity of marriage, i think.

[LiveLaughLove]

oh, so you want to talk about the Bible?

http://bible.cc/john/18-36.htm


http://bible.cc/matthew/22-21.htm


seems the separation of church and state has been pushed longer than you'd like to believe.

you want to condemn gays, fine, just leave the government out of it. just keep your silly superstitions in your church and personal life, please.

As I suspected you weren't interested in my "helping you understand" a thing. You are a liar that was trying to set up what they thought was a clever trap. Also, as with all of your ilk, you want we Christians to sit at the back of the bus and shut up politically. Sorry, not happening.

I am not interested in denying rights to anyone in particular. Last I checked, everyone has the right to marry. No one is being denied that right.

The whole premise that a sexual proclivity should be some sort of race or class is absurd. It doesn't exist except in some hedonistic fantasy land. Now do I care who is screwing who? Nope. Don't care.

Gays have had the right to screw each other in the privacy of their homes for quite some time. No one that I know wishes to change that.

The change demand is from the sexual deviants that want their deviancy approved of by society and are pretending like they are something equal to a race or class when they are not.

Can't make it any plainer. They have every right the rest of us do already. The premise is false and always has been. Has nothing to do with my Bible in the end. Has to do with common sense instead of emotional reaction.

Now about your weak attempt at quoting the Bible. Laughable really, and as the norm taken completely out of context. Jesus did say his Kingdom is not of this world, but he also said that he did not come to end the Law but to fulfill it. He was not saying do as you please in any way form or fashion. He spoke of the fact that people will go to Hell for their evils here on Earth more than any other person in the Bible.

He clearly was against sexual evils and said if you even look at a woman with lust you were an adulterer condemned to eternal torment. His talk of his Kingdom was merely pointing out to his followers that should he choose to, he could destroy the Romans and Pharisees in the blink of an eye. He was speaking to his power, not his limitations. As usual, someone that doesn't have a clue gets it wrong.

Render unto Caesar... is not saying join in on the hedonism that was Rome. He was telling his disciples once more that his movement was not a political movement but a spiritual one. They saw him as a warrior leader to lead the Jews in a rebellion against the Romans. They actually didn't grasp the fact that his movement was spiritual until the resurrection. In no way was he saying let the government condone sexual immorality and murdering our unborn because that's the law, so just go along with it.

Idiotic to think that. But your calling it superstition shows the lack of wisdom you possess so a little idiocy is not to be surprised at.

Lastly, the separation of church and state is a liberal plant that never existed at the founding in the way that it means today. We all know that, even you I'm sure. I'm not for a theocracy and neither were the founders, but they were very much opposed to the suppression and free exercise of religion which is how "church and state" is used today and will be in the future to criminalize Christianity.

As with so much these days, it's been turned completely upside down from it's intent. Good is called evil and evil called good and most people are scared of being called a bigot, so they sit silently and let the liberal fascists bully them and destroy this country from within.

[LiveLaughLove]

everyone knows that Leviticus is before the New Covenant and doesn't count. that's why you don't have to shun your wife once a month and you are free to eat all the lobster and pork you want. somehow sodomy was left on the ban list to be relevant from all those rules.

one thing i did miss was were polygamy became such a no-no. it seemed okay for Jacob and Job. Jacob's story really is a good one for the sanctity of marriage, i think.

Correct about Leviticus, but Romans makes it quite clear that homosexuality is still considered an abomination. Romans is New Testament. That's how it's still on the list. So is murder, adultery, theft, idol worship, witchcraft, covetousness, and a whole slew of other things.

God destroyed two civilizations over sexual immorality. Doesn't take a scientist to figure that's a pretty big sin, high on the list of sins. Probably safe to say it's still on the list.

[yermom]

As I suspected you weren't interested in my "helping you understand" a thing. You are a liar that was trying to set up what they thought was a clever trap. Also, as with all of your ilk, you want we Christians to sit at the back of the bus and shut up politically. Sorry, not happening.

I am not interested in denying rights to anyone in particular. Last I checked, everyone has the right to marry. No one is being denied that right.

The whole premise that a sexual proclivity should be some sort of race or class is absurd. It doesn't exist except in some hedonistic fantasy land. Now do I care who is screwing who? Nope. Don't care.

Gays have had the right to screw each other in the privacy of their homes for quite some time. No one that I know wishes to change that.

The change demand is from the sexual deviants that want their deviancy approved of by society and are pretending like they are something equal to a race or class when they are not.

Can't make it any plainer. They have every right the rest of us do already. The premise is false and always has been. Has nothing to do with my Bible in the end. Has to do with common sense instead of emotional reaction.

Now about your weak attempt at quoting the Bible. Laughable really, and as the norm taken completely out of context. Jesus did say his Kingdom is not of this world, but he also said that he did not come to end the Law but to fulfill it. He was not saying do as you please in any way form or fashion. He spoke of the fact that people will go to Hell for their evils here on Earth more than any other person in the Bible.

He clearly was against sexual evils and said if you even look at a woman with lust you were an adulterer condemned to eternal torment. His talk of his Kingdom was merely pointing out to his followers that should he choose to, he could destroy the Romans and Pharisees in the blink of an eye. He was speaking to his power, not his limitations. As usual, someone that doesn't have a clue gets it wrong.

Render unto Caesar... is not saying join in on the hedonism that was Rome. He was telling his disciples once more that his movement was not a political movement but a spiritual one. They saw him as a warrior leader to lead the Jews in a rebellion against the Romans. They actually didn't grasp the fact that his movement was spiritual until the resurrection. In no way was he saying let the government condone sexual immorality and murdering our unborn because that's the law, so just go along with it.

Idiotic to think that. But your calling it superstition shows the lack of wisdom you possess so a little idiocy is not to be surprised at.

Lastly, the separation of church and state is a liberal plant that never existed at the founding in the way that it means today. We all know that, even you I'm sure. I'm not for a theocracy and neither were the founders, but they were very much opposed to the suppression and free exercise of religion which is how "church and state" is used today and will be in the future to criminalize Christianity.

As with so much these days, it's been turned completely upside down from it's intent. Good is called evil and evil called good and most people are scared of being called a bigot, so they sit silently and let the liberal fascists bully them and destroy this country from within.

you seem to be adding a lot of words to what i said, and your interpretation of the Caesar bit was the same as mine. "He was telling his disciples once more that his movement was not a political movement but a spiritual one."

why do you care so much what the law of the land is when you are supposed to follow God's law anyway?

[LiveLaughLove]

you seem to be adding a lot of words to what i said, and your interpretation of the Caesar bit was the same as mine. "He was telling his disciples once more that his movement was not a political movement but a spiritual one."

why do you care so much what the law of the land is when you are supposed to follow God's law anyway?

Is this a serious question? Do you really believe that Christians are supposed to not stay active in civil discourse? Where in the world did you get that idea?

You do know that if it weren't for Christians (for reference: I am talking about actual Christians when I use the term, not people that check Protestant or Catholic in a box but don't actually live it) getting so heavily involved in the politics of the day that slavery would have lasted, well, who knows how much longer. Quite a bit I dare say.

Normal every day citizens were not fomenting war. Pastors were, from the pulpit. They spoke of the evils of slavery and got their parishioners to pressure politicians to get to ending it.

The English pastor William Wilberforce got it going in England, and the movement came here. The judge that ruled in favor of the Sinke of the Amistad affair was a devout Catholic that saw slavery as an evil against Gods word.

It was Christians that went to the government and spoke against the evils of the forced removals of the Indians to Oklahoma. It was missionaries that brought aid to the people during the marches and in Oklahoma.

Christians have been deeply involved in the politics of this country since the first settlers came here to get away from the repression of religion in Europe.

So why do I care that my country is being rotted from within by the turn toward hedonism and away from God? Gee, I don't know. You got me there.

[yermom]

so the slave traders and confederates weren't Christians?

[LiveLaughLove]

so the slave traders and confederates weren't Christians?

No, I don't believe they were (the slave traders and confederates that fought for slavery anyway, to blanket the whole confederacy with it is not accurate on your part since most fought for the states and homes not for slavery itself). Did they call themselves such? Yes. Were they following scriptures? Clearly not, so no I don't believe they were.

That's the whole reason I put in the parenthetical remark about true Christians and those simply claiming it as a birth right. I was a step ahead of your post, and I guess a foot or two above your head, since you posted it anyway.

Predicting the comebacks on here is simpleton stuff. (Now I'll just wait for the next post from someone about the Bible condoning slavery and saying to be a good slave). <yawn>

[yermom]

the world would be such a better place if everyone just accepted Jesus, right? so let's just force them to...

[rock on sooner]

Holy cow! All I wanted was a right of center viewpoint on how gay
marriage and/or civil union affected my almost 35 year HETEROSEXUAL
marriage and, instead, got a bible thumping, hell fire and damnation
back and forth about what is good or bad (depending on the opnion writer)
about it. Truth is, folks, I believe that it is up to the individual and
his/her conscience and that group's circle to believe & live and let live,
because it does NOT diminish my marriage or anyone else's. This WILL
come to pass and we will all be better for it!

My condolences if this is against what you believe.

Boomer Sooner!

[olevetonahill]

So now you understand.

[Midtowner]

You have no concept of Christianity beyond maybe an Easter service or two, so it's not surprising that you believe Christ was some meek little sheep led to the slaughter and didn't defend himself.

Many years of Catholic school and regular churchgoing are behind me until I realized what a load of **** organized religion tends to be. It's really no more than a method of behavior control.

NSFW
gPOfurmrjxo


He stood up to the pharisee's and called them what they were. He "attacked" them repeatedly to the point where they wanted him dead. Not banished, not jailed, dead. He didn't get that animus from them by sitting with his hands folded and just letting them walk all over him. He is a man's man, no doubt about it.

So says your faith. Not mine.


The last book of the Bible is called The Revelation of Jesus Christ. We shorten it to "Revelations" making it sound like some Nostradamus book, but that's not what it is. It is the revealing of the true King of Kings in all of his glory and all of his wrath and anger. It isn't a pretty sight for us. He rides on a horse wielding a double edged sword slaying all of those that have opposed him. He opens the seals slaying over half of the world. Sounds like an attack to me.

John the Beloved was also called John, Son of Thunder because he didn't take peoples crap and he was loud and in your face about it. Yet he was beloved by Christ and was asked by him to take care of his mother Mary.

Paul was very in your face. Peter used a sword and wacked a dudes ear (Christ did admonish him and healed the man, but more for Peters sake than the mans).

And the book of Revelations is total horse****.

Seriously. Like Godzilla is coming back to get us.


You see, the pablum you people try to feed about the Jesus that just smiled and took it (some sort of hippy love-in socialist type), just isn't true. For sure, he loves all of us and wishes us all to go to heaven.

If only we give him money...


For sure, he suffered the little children to come unto him. For sure, he hung with the sinners to try and convert them. But he didn't take anybodies crap, and neither will I. He said if you are lukewarm I will spew you from my mouth. The sentence on all of our heads is death. That's HIS sentence on you and me. Sounds like an attack to me.

So attack you? I guess if speaking the truth about your weak arguments is attacking, then right on. You better believe I'm going to call a spade a spade.

You aren't addressing my arguments. You're attacking my person and character (groundlessly). I never heard of Jesus doing that.


You are a deflector and a straw man arguer. You have no real substance that I can tell from what you post on here except to try and belittle everyone and then expect us to take it.

As you so gladly tell people when they speak about things in your arena, the Bible is mine, and you sir/madam are just plain ignorant about it. Try and limit yourself to things you actually know. Well, things you actually think you know anyway. This most definitely is not one of them.

If you feel belittled, it's not because I've attacked you personally. It's because your argument is crap and it shows. AND YOU STILL HAVEN'T SHOWN HOW GAY MARRIAGE AFFECTS YOU. TRY AGAIN.

[pphilfran]

You went to Catholic school?

lol

I went through 8th figgin grade....

[olevetonahill]

Many years of Catholic school and regular churchgoing are behind me until I realized what a load of **** organized religion tends to be. It's really no more than a method of behavior control.

NSFW
gPOfurmrjxo



So says your faith. Not mine.



And the book of Revelations is total horse****.

Seriously. Like Godzilla is coming back to get us.



If only we give him money...



You aren't addressing my arguments. You're attacking my person and character (groundlessly). I never heard of Jesus doing that.



If you feel belittled, it's not because I've attacked you personally. It's because your argument is crap and it shows. AND YOU STILL HAVEN'T SHOWN HOW GAY MARRIAGE AFFECTS YOU. TRY AGAIN.

So you were an "Altar Boy" Explains so much

[cleller]

Many years of Catholic school and regular churchgoing are behind me until I realized what a load of **** organized religion tends to be. It's really no more than a method of behavior contr


And the book of Revelations is total horse****.

Seriously. Like Godzilla is coming back to get us.

You aren't addressing my arguments. You're attacking my person and character (groundlessly). I never heard of Jesus doing that.



If you feel belittled, it's not because I've attacked you personally. It's because your argument is crap and it shows. AND YOU STILL HAVEN'T SHOWN HOW GAY MARRIAGE AFFECTS YOU. TRY AGAIN.

OK, so religious topics disturb you. You don't want it forced upon you.
You know that marriage has historically existed between males and females for a reason. Historical context, and logic may not matter to you, but it does to some people. They don't want historically important and meaningful institutions to be rendered obsolete, and to have that forced upon them.

Would you like our flag to be altered or changed and expect your voice not to be heard?

Now, resume your name calling and petit revenges.

[rock on sooner]

So now you understand.

I guess so, Vet...at least I can sleep peacefully, since it has been
so eloquently 'splained to me....

[olevetonahill]

I guess so, Vet...at least I can sleep peacefully, since it has been
so eloquently 'splained to me....

Heh

[Ton Loc]

There's no doubt that Christians don't want gays to marry. You're never going to win. A constant waste of time if you're arguing this issue against a Christian when the issue is with the government. Last time I checked there weren't a lot of Christians in the government. Just a lot of opportunists looking for their next vote.