The Next Time Obama Says We Only Have 2% of Proven Oil Reserves

[sappstuf]

Just remember what his administration actually says. From the GAO on May 10th:


Increasing domestic oil production. Tapping the vast amounts of oil locked within U.S. oil shale formations could go a long way toward satisfying the nation’s future oil demands. Oil shale deposits in the Green River Formation are estimated to contain up to 3 trillion barrels of oil, half of which may be recoverable, which is about equal to the entire world’s proven oil reserves.

http://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/documents/hearings/HHRG-112-%20SY20-WState-AMittal-20120510.pdf


"Equal to the entire world's proven oil reserves".. Is that 2%??

About 75% of that is located on federal lands.. I guess that means only one man is standing in the way of progress:


Development of oil shale resources could lead to the creation of jobs, increases in wealth, and increases in tax and royalty payments to federal and state governments for oil produced on their lands.

I would also add less reliance on oil from the middle east to that list.

We also know that as long as he stays in office, it is an impossibility that any of this will happen.

[okie52]

Just remember what his administration actually says. From the GAO on May 10th:



"Equal to the entire world's proven oil reserves".. Is that 2%??

About 75% of that is located on federal lands.. I guess that means only one man is standing in the way of progress:



I would also add less reliance on oil from the middle east to that list.

We also know that as long as he stays in office, it is an impossibility that any of this will happen.

Not the kind of jobs Obama wants to see. Maybe if the oilies all were unionized and state owned...now that's something he could really get behind.

[cleller]

Drilling for oil is so 20th century. The future is obviously the sun and Solyndra.

Now, I really do believe the future is the sun, but right now its not affordable, and shouldn't be counted on to replace oil. Natural gas, on the other hand, is so underutilized that Obama looks downright dense for not bandwagoning on it.

[sappstuf]

Not the kind of jobs Obama wants to see. Maybe if the oilies all were unionized and state owned...now that's something he could really get behind.

I'm thinking he might put a big orphanage right on top of all that oil. That way, mean Repubs would have to throw kids out on the street to get to the oil..

[okie52]

I'm thinking he might put a big orphanage right on top of all that oil. That way, mean Repubs would have to throw kids out on the street to get to the oil..

Well it's been done before...the US thought they were putting Indians on top of some worthless land and lo and behold.....
Oklahoma!!!

[diverdog]

Just remember what his administration actually says. From the GAO on May 10th:



"Equal to the entire world's proven oil reserves".. Is that 2%??

About 75% of that is located on federal lands.. I guess that means only one man is standing in the way of progress:



I would also add less reliance on oil from the middle east to that list.

We also know that as long as he stays in office, it is an impossibility that any of this will happen.

Sorry but those are not "proven reserves".

[diverdog]

Drilling for oil is so 20th century. The future is obviously the sun and Solyndra.

Now, I really do believe the future is the sun, but right now its not affordable, and shouldn't be counted on to replace oil. Natural gas, on the other hand, is so underutilized that Obama looks downright dense for not bandwagoning on it.

You know who hates fossile fuel? The US military!

[okie52]

Sorry but those are not "proven reserves".

Haha. Yeah, the term proven is very limiting in its application since it is basically only dealing with existing oil fields....but I haven't heard Obama stress the "existing" limitations of green energy.

[olevetonahill]

You know who hates fossile fuel? The US military!

Cause we get in so dayum many fights over it?

[okie52]

You know who hates fossile fuel? The US military!

If that's the case they better create a tank that does better than 6 gallons per mile.

[okie52]

Cause we get in so dayum many fights over it?

Maybe they just hate ME oil.

[olevetonahill]

Maybe they just hate ME oil.

:welcoming:

[sappstuf]

You know who hates fossile fuel? The US military!

I'm sure the military would be happy if these oil reserves in the United States were allowed to be developed..

[diverdog]

Cause we get in so dayum many fights over it?

Nope. It limits us in battle operations. Half of the 200000 gallons of fuel a day that we use in Afghanistan is used in generators to provide power. At many of our remote out post it cost up to $400/gal to get it there. The convoys that bring that fuel are highly vulnerable to IED attacks or embargo by Pakistan. The other issue in a major tank battle the number one weakness of our tank force is fuel. The military would love to find alternative sources of energy to fix these problems. Right now the USMC is going full bore to finding ways to use solar power to help them meet their energy needs.

[olevetonahill]

Nope. It limits us in battle operations. Half of the 200000 gallons of fuel a day that we use in Afghanistan is used in generators to provide power. At many of our remote out post it cost up to $400/gal to get it there. The convoys that bring that fuel are highly vulnerable to IED attacks or embargo by Pakistan. The other issue in a major tank battle the number one weakness of our tank force is fuel. The military would love to find alternative sources of energy to fix these problems. Right now the USMC is going full bore to finding ways to use solar power to help them meet their energy needs.

So in other words , Fightin over it, Thot so.

[sappstuf]

Sorry but those are not "proven reserves".

Okie has already mentioned how strict the definition of "proven reserves" is. But it still shows how off Obama is..


In New Mexico, Obama declared, “even if we drilled every square inch of this country, we’d still only have 2 or 3 or 4 percent of the world’s known oil reserves.”

We know this is either an outright lie or complete ignorance.

I'm torn...

[olevetonahill]

Okie has already mentioned how strict the definition of "proven reserves" is. But it still shows how off Obama is..



We know this is either an outright lie or complete ignorance.

I'm torn...

Its Both, He's liein about his ignorance

[diverdog]

Okie has already mentioned how strict the definition of "proven reserves" is. But it still shows how off Obama is..



We know this is either an outright lie or complete ignorance.

I'm torn...

Sapp you are assuming all the rest of the oil fields in the world are static. Not so. But your point is well taken we are probably well north of 2%.

[diverdog]

So in other words , Fightin over it, Thot so.

True

[olevetonahill]

True

Some times ONE liners are just simply gettin to the Nut cuttin .

[diverdog]

Some times ONE liners are just simply gettin to the Nut cuttin .

How long were you in?

[olevetonahill]

How long were you in?
Did my one hitch and GTFout

[sappstuf]

Nope. It limits us in battle operations. Half of the 200000 gallons of fuel a day that we use in Afghanistan is used in generators to provide power. At many of our remote out post it cost up to $400/gal to get it there. The convoys that bring that fuel are highly vulnerable to IED attacks or embargo by Pakistan. The other issue in a major tank battle the number one weakness of our tank force is fuel. The military would love to find alternative sources of energy to fix these problems. Right now the USMC is going full bore to finding ways to use solar power to help them meet their energy needs.

You must be a "glass is half empty" kind of guy.. Without fuel, we would be running around on horseback, with no fresh food or electricity. I will take the limitation of fuel.

The Marines, right now, have unmanned helos that deliver fuel and food back and forth to forward bases that counters the IED threat and is much more efficient.


They have been keeping a steady pace of six missions per day, with record load deliveries ranging from a single 4,200-pound sling load to 28,800 pounds lifted in a single day. During operations in Afghanistan, previously scheduled to end in June, the aircraft has met or exceeded all expectations with less than one maintenance man-hour per flight hour.”

[diverdog]

Did my one hitch and GTFout

So does ole vet on a hill refer to your time in the service or are you a Doctor of Veterniary Medicine? Trying to figure out your handle.

[olevetonahill]

So does ole vet on a hill refer to your time in the service or are you a Doctor of Veterniary Medicine? Trying to figure out your handle.

Im Old, Im a Veteran, I live on the side of a Hill. Whats to figure?

[okie52]

Im Old, Im a Veteran, I live on the side of a Hill. Whats to figure?

Hills that are full of bees and honey.

Did you ever get your other bee colony back?

[diverdog]

You must be a "glass is half empty" kind of guy.. Without fuel, we would be running around on horseback, with no fresh food or electricity. I will take the limitation of fuel.

The Marines, right now, have unmanned helos that deliver fuel and food back and forth to forward bases that counters the IED threat and is much more efficient.

Sapp I think everyone understands we need fossile fuel. Especially for aircraft. But with the growing use of electronics on the modern day battlefield our need for power is increasing rapidly. Each GI in a patrol is humping 25 pounds of batteries. That is 700 pounds of batteriesper patrol. If they can increase the efficiency of solar power they can reduce that load a lot.

Taking fuel to FOB's by heli is all well and good but you have to remember they still have to get it to the base by convoy and it is still very expensive to get it to the front.

[diverdog]

Hills that are full of bees and honey.

Did you ever get your other bee colony back?. They already left?

[olevetonahill]

Hills that are full of bees and honey.

Did you ever get your other bee colony back?

No, They bee long gone

Should get the replacements tomorrow
Im gonna have to add the second story on to the 1st Condo tomorrow also . The 1st bunch are Busy as Bees

Oh plus I gots Turkeys and Deer and all manner of critters that I feed

[diverdog]

Im Old, Im a Veteran, I live on the side of a Hill. Whats to figure?

Kind of exposed myself as an over thinking dumb ***. :chuncky:

[olevetonahill]

. They already left?

I set up 2 Hives
When I installed the second one I made it way to easy fro the Queen to get out of her travel cage
The workers had barely got started drawing out Comb so they just up an flew the hell away

Cost me 125 bucks

Wont make that mistake again. But Im sure Ill make others

[olevetonahill]

Kind of exposed myself as an over thinking dumb ***. :chuncky:

I've noticed You libs are Like that :chuncky:

[okie52]

No, They bee long gone

Should get the replacements tomorrow
Im gonna have to add the second story on to the 1st Condo tomorrow also . The 1st bunch are Busy as Bees

Oh plus I gots Turkeys and Deer and all manner of critters that I feed

Any of those turkeys come up missing in November?

[olevetonahill]

Any of those turkeys come up missing in November?

Not by Me. But sure they do
I cant keep em on Just my land

[diverdog]

Okie or any oilee:

Do we even have the technology to access this stuff on a commercial basis? I guess the other big issue is water. They say it takes a lot of water to access the shale oil and that is problematic at best in todays west.

[sappstuf]

Sapp I think everyone understands we need fossile fuel. Especially for aircraft. But with the growing use of electronics on the modern day battlefield our need for power is increasing rapidly. Each GI in a patrol is humping 25 pounds of batteries. That is 700 pounds of batteriesper patrol. If they can increase the efficiency of solar power they can reduce that load a lot.

Taking fuel to FOB's by heli is all well and good but you have to remember they still have to get it to the base by convoy and it is still very expensive to get it to the front.

I can't answer your post, the way I want to. I did find this I can share:


Body armor + Helmet= 40 lbs
M4/ 203 (with gadets) + 7 full mags = 20 pounds
M9 + 3 mags = 5 pounds
3 grenades = 3 pounds
Camelback w/ water = 4 pounds
GPS, radio, various other gadgets and batteries= 8 pounds

Total weight = 80

Plus I have a big first aid bag that isn't on here. No one is carrying 25 pounds of batteries.

That being said, a solar recharger for long range or SF patrols makes sense if they are light and collapsible for emergency situations. But let us not kid ourselves, this stuff is a drop in the bucket compared to the energy the diesel generators are making 24/7.

[diverdog]

I can't answer your post, the way I want to. I did find this I can share:



Plus I have a big first aid bag that isn't on here. No one is carrying 25 pounds of batteries.

That being said, a solar recharger for long range or SF patrols makes sense if they are light and collapsible for emergency situations. But let us not kid ourselves, this stuff is a drop in the bucket compared to the energy the diesel generators are making 24/7.

I just report what I read. One of my friends who was over there in the Army said they carried 110 pounds on patrols.

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/May/Pages/ArmyMarinesFaceUphillBattleToLightenTroops’Battery Load.aspx

[sappstuf]

I just report what I read. One of my friends who was over there in the Army said they carried 110 pounds on patrols.

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/May/Pages/ArmyMarinesFaceUphillBattleToLightenTroops’Battery Load.aspx

I don't think they mean actually carrying them even though it sounds that way.. If they are carrying that much for any amount of time, then they aren't taking their full combat load, which depending on their mission might be an option.

I have 100% no doubt what your friend said is true. I'm at around 105 pounds of gear just to walk out the door. Add another 25 pounds in batteries and it is starting to get silly..

[diverdog]

I don't think they mean actually carrying them even though it sounds that way.. If they are carrying that much for any amount of time, then they aren't taking their full combat load, which depending on their mission might be an option.

I have 100% no doubt what your friend said is true. I'm at around 105 pounds of gear just to walk out the door. Add another 25 pounds in batteries and it is starting to get silly..

We backpacked part of the AT together and he went up those hills like a mountain goat. Me on the other hand was wimpering like a girl under a 40 pound load.

[okie52]

Okie or any oilee:

Do we even have the technology to access this stuff on a commercial basis? I guess the other big issue is water. They say it takes a lot of water to access the shale oil and that is problematic at best in todays west.

Diver-limited by the iPad here but there are a lot of reserves that are definitely accessible that are not listed in the 2% like anwar, parts of the gulf, the Atlantic and pacific oceans simply because we can't drill there now.

[Skysooner]

The answer is no. It isn't commercial at the current oil prices hence not proven. This is from a corporate reserves engineer.

[okie52]

The answer is no. It isn't commercial at the current oil prices hence not proven. This is from a corporate reserves engineer.

I assume you are talking about technically recoverable reserves. Proven reserves don't include areas that aren't accessible to drilling, too, unless Ive been misinformed. That's a lot of commercially viable reserves that are left out of proven reserves.

[Skysooner]

Depends on the definition of proven which has changed a bunch recently. Unless i know what he is talking about I don't know if the statement is accurate or not. Still the technology to reliably extract those reserves isn't quite there yet.

[okie52]

Depends on the definition of proven which has changed a bunch recently. Unless i know what he is talking about I don't know if the statement is accurate or not. Still the technology to reliably extract those reserves isn't quite there yet.

Again are you talking about the oil shales in CO or anwar?

[olevetonahill]

Depends on the definition of proven which has changed a bunch recently. Unless i know what he is talking about I don't know if the statement is accurate or not. Still the technology to reliably extract those reserves isn't quite there yet.

Depends on what the definition of "Is" Is :chuncky:

[kbsooner21]

Its Both, He's liein about his ignorance

This is a correct statement here.

[Skysooner]

Depends on the definition of proven which has changed a bunch recently. Unless i know what he is talking about I don't know if the statement is accurate or not. Still the technology to reliably extract those reserves isn't quite there yet.

Again are you talking about the oil shales in CO or anwar?

Oil shales.

[Skysooner]

ANWR is a completely different situation. Technically recoverable and commercial by statistical measures.

[okie52]

ANWR is a completely different situation. Technically recoverable and commercial by statistical measures.

As I understand it, areas we aren't allowed access to like anwar, the Atlantic and pacific, and parts of the gulf are not included in proven reserves even though we know they would be commercial fields

[Skysooner]

That's likely. I was talking the technical side of things. ANWR is commercial. Oil shales are barely economic at this point. When I worked corporate reserves, we were still on the PDP, PDNP and PUD issues. As I recall if you can't get to them either via government influence or landowner blocking, they can't be counted. Things have changed a bunch since 2009 when the new standard came out. What I do with reserves now is simply technical statistical recoverable and the price forecast goes a long way in determining that. I also do some work for an independent agency that assesses natural gas reserves in the US. That is also a statistical method, and it does not use current gas price, so it can be technically recoverable and economically infeasible.

[okie52]

That projecting a price would be pretty tricky as all of us ng lovers know.

You can lose me pretty quick when you get into the technical side of your vocation.

[Skysooner]

That projecting a price would be pretty tricky as all of us ng lovers know.

Not quite as hard now with all of the supply. We are predicting a recovery to $4/MCF by 2014. It is a fairly robust model, but it is only a model. There are too many things on the demand side that can determine things. We have the supply curve pretty well nailed down now though.

[diverdog]

That projecting a price would be pretty tricky as all of us ng lovers know.

You can lose me pretty quick when you get into the technical side of your vocation.

Okie:

I think ANWR is included.

[okie52]

Okie:

I think ANWR is included.

Nope...at least according to my source. I'll post you the link tomorrow (Ipad limited today).

[okie52]

Okie:

I think ANWR is included.

Here you go:


Proven oil reserves are not all of our oil resources—not even close. In fact, proved reserves represent a tiny portion of our total oil resources. Proven (or proved) oil reserves are reserves that have already been discovered, typically through actual exploration or drilling, and which can be recovered economically. That estimate does not include oil that we know about, yet are unable to access because of regulatory barriers. For example, the billions of barrels of oil in ANWR are not included in our proved oil reserves. So let’s look at the facts.

Currently, the United States has 1,442 billion barrels of technically recoverable oil, but only about 20 billion barrels are considered proven oil reserves.[ii] That is partly because the federal government is denying access to hundreds of millions of acres oil-rich federal lands: the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge, the Naval Petroleum Reserve-Alaska, federal waters off the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, at least 45 percent of the Gulf of Mexico, the Chukchi and Beaufort Seas, and oil shale on federal lands in Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming, to name a few. In the case of oil shale (an oil composed of kerogen), technology needs to be perfected to make its production viable, but this will not happen until the land is leased. Regrettably, the Department of Interior has stopped a leasing program Congress directed it to undertake.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/45229

[dwarthog]

We backpacked part of the AT together and he went up those hills like a mountain goat. Me on the other hand was wimpering like a girl under a 40 pound load.

40lbs is a bit on the heavy side from what I have read from folks through hiking the AT or the PCT.

[soonercruiser]

Sorry but those are not "proven reserves".

Sorry Diver!
But it was a government official that reported those numbers to Congress.
Granted, experts have said that we may only be able to recover about 40% of that.
(I believe that was based on the fact that 60% is on gobment land)

DUH!

[soonercruiser]

Here you go Diver!



GAO To Obama: More Oil Than Rest Of The World
Posted 06:45 PM ET
Energy: The Government Accountability Office tells Congress the Green River Formation out West contains an "amount about equal to the entire world's proven oil reserves." So why are we keeping it locked up on federal lands?

Exploding the Big Lie pushed by President Obama that we can't drill our way out of high gas prices because we have but 2% of the world's proven oil reserves, Anu Mittal, GAO director of natural resources and environment, testified before Congress last week that just one small part of the U.S. is capable of outproducing the rest of the planet.

The rest of the story...
http://news.investors.com/article/611380/201205141845/green-river-equal-to-worlds-oil-reserves-.htm

http://oilshalegas.com/greenriveroilshale.html

http://news.investors.com/article/611380/201205141900/green-river-equal-to-worlds-oil-reserves-.htm

GOA: Recoverable Oil In Green River Formation Equal to Entire World’s Oil Reserves
http://nation.foxnews.com/domestic-oil-drilling/2012/05/11/goa-recoverable-oil-green-river-formation-equal-entire-world-s-oil-reserves

[diverdog]

Here you go Diver!GAO To Obama: More Oil Than Rest Of The World Posted 06:45 PM ETEnergy: The Government Accountability Office tells Congress the Green River Formation out West contains an "amount about equal to the entire world's proven oil reserves." So why are we keeping it locked up on federal lands?Exploding the Big Lie pushed by President Obama that we can't drill our way out of high gas prices because we have but 2% of the world's proven oil reserves, Anu Mittal, GAO director of natural resources and environment, testified before Congress last week that just one small part of the U.S. is capable of outproducing the rest of the planet.The rest of the story...http://news.investors.com/article/611380/201205141845/green-river-equal-to-worlds-oil-reserves-.htmhttp://oilshalegas.com/greenriveroilshale.htmlhttp://news.investors.com/article/611380/201205141900/green-river-equal-to-worlds-oil-reserves-.htmGOA: Recoverable Oil In Green River Formation Equal to Entire World’s Oil Reserveshttp://nation.foxnews.com/domestic-oil-drilling/2012/05/11/goa-recoverable-oil-green-river-formation-equal-entire-world-s-oil-reserves Cruiser did you read any of this thread? Especially Skysooners comments.

[diverdog]

Sorry Diver!But it was a government official that reported those numbers to Congress.Granted, experts have said that we may only be able to recover about 40% of that.(I believe that was based on the fact that 60% is on gobment land)DUH! Read the entire thread before you make yourself look foolish. This has been hashed out already.

[diverdog]

40lbs is a bit on the heavy side from what I have read from folks through hiking the AT or the PCT. The problem we had was hot days, cold nights and rain. So we had to pack for everything. Also the section of the trail we were on did not have a lot of water. In retrospect we did not need to carry as much as we did. If I hike it again I would be at around 22 pounds.

[dwarthog]

The problem we had was hot days, cold nights and rain. So we had to pack for everything. Also the section of the trail we were on did not have a lot of water. In retrospect we did not need to carry as much as we did. If I hike it again I would be at around 22 pounds.

Planning for a trip in the great outdoors is definitely a challenge. That 20-25lbs mark seems to be the sweet spot the folks doing the walk throughs try to hit. Of course if water availability is a big issue, that can drive up the weight in a hurry!

[pphilfran]

Dehydrated water is the answer...

[Petro-Sooner]

Where is this Green River Formation located?

[okie52]

Where is this Green River Formation located?

I think that is the oil shale formation in CO, Utah and Wyoming.

[Petro-Sooner]

Where is this Green River Formation located?

I think that is the oil shale formation in CO, Utah and Wyoming.

Interesting.

[sappstuf]

Where is this Green River Formation located?

This map is pulled straight off the government report.

http://www.inautonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/colorado-oil.jpg

[diverdog]

I am calling BS on this entire report. Is anyone gonna sit here and say that area contains more oil than the rest of the world combined? How did they arrive at that number? This is only 1500 square miles out of a planet that is 195,000,000 square miles.

[Curly Bill]

I am calling BS on this entire report. Is anyone gonna sit here and say that area contains more oil than the rest of the world combined? How did they arrive at that number? This is only 1500 square miles out of a planet that is 195,000,000 square miles.

I'll only believe it when I hear the Obammy administration say it! How about you?

[diverdog]

I'll only believe it when I hear the Obammy administration say it! How about you?

No I want to see the data.

[okie52]

I am calling BS on this entire report. Is anyone gonna sit here and say that area contains more oil than the rest of the world combined? How did they arrive at that number? This is only 1500 square miles out of a planet that is 195,000,000 square miles.

Diver I haven't really checked on the oil shales (but I will). It is not commercial now and there was a lot of effort by some companies in the late 70's early 80's to extract the oil. It may be another couple of decades off.

But, to your point and I don't know this, if that area's/formations thickness was, say, 1000' then you would/could have incredible reserves.

[diverdog]

Diver I haven't really checked on the oil shales (but I will). It is not commercial now and there was a lot of effort by some companies in the late 70's early 80's to extract the oil. It may be another couple of decades off.

But, to your point and I don't know this, if that area's/formations thickness was, say, 1000' then you would/could have incredible reserves.

No doubt we need to look at it. But I think to make this statement :
GOA: Recoverable Oil In Green River Formation Equal to Entire World’s Oil Reserves is a bad as Obama saying we have 2% of the worlds reserves. The statement is from Fox.

[pphilfran]

The Saudi fields, by far the largest in the world, are about 10 miles wide and maybe 200 miles long...

So...seems feasible....

http://www.gregcroft.com/ghawar.ivnu

[diverdog]

Thought this was interesting:


.I did environmental work on oil shale for a number of companies including Gulf/Amoco, Geokinetics, and Unocal. The latter mined the shale and processed it in a retort to produce shale oil. The shale oil was sent to an upgrade plant to remove impurities such as arsenic. The synoil could then be sent to a refinery. The problem with upgrading the shale oil from the retort is that the catalysts used are pyrophoric i.e. ignite spontaneously. The amount of hazardous waste produced is prodigious and the spent shale, what is left in the retort, is highly alkaline and must be disposed and revegetated. No easy task. The basic problems are that the the rock is incompetent (flakey) and underground mining dangerous, open pit mining is difficult because of the overburden disposal issues, in situ mining has failed wherever tried and Shell's recent attempts will founder because of the lack of water.
BTUs per ton are low compared with other resources. Coal, natural gas, and nuclear power will always be more economical. The bottom line is that it oil shale is not economical to produce. 8 Dec 2009, 12:18 PMReplyLike1

[I Am Right]

Geeez!

[Ton Loc]

This map is pulled straight off the government report.

http://www.inautonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/colorado-oil.jpg

Uinta is about to get, for lack of a term, worked over again. I don't know why exactly, because its been pretty quiet in that area for years, but I wouldn't be getting killed by it all of the sudden if someone didn't have some big plans.

Wish I wasn't on the administrative side so much or I'd probably know more.

If Obama wasn't such a turd on energy, I'd be a bigger fan.

[sappstuf]

Thought this was interesting:


I did environmental work on oil shale for a number of companies including Gulf/Amoco, Geokinetics, and Unocal. The latter mined the shale and processed it in a retort to produce shale oil. The shale oil was sent to an upgrade plant to remove impurities such as arsenic. The synoil could then be sent to a refinery. The problem with upgrading the shale oil from the retort is that the catalysts used are pyrophoric i.e. ignite spontaneously. The amount of hazardous waste produced is prodigious and the spent shale, what is left in the retort, is highly alkaline and must be disposed and revegetated. No easy task. The basic problems are that the the rock is incompetent (flakey) and underground mining dangerous, open pit mining is difficult because of the overburden disposal issues, in situ mining has failed wherever tried and Shell's recent attempts will founder because of the lack of water.
BTUs per ton are low compared with other resources. Coal, natural gas, and nuclear power will always be more economical. The bottom line is that it oil shale is not economical to produce. 8 Dec 2009, 12:18 PMReplyLike1

Somebody forgot to tell the Chinese...


In China, oil shale retorting to produce shale oil began in the 1920s; The Western Mine has been operated for 90 years.

http://www.ceri-mines.org/A02c-JialinQianpaper.pdf.pdf

[Ton Loc]

I assume its more economical in China because they're a "commie" state and don't operate under the same economics.

[okie52]

I assume its more economical in China because they're a "commie" state and don't operate under the same economics.

Or regulations...he11, ng is going for over $16 an MCF in China.

[Ton Loc]

Or regulations...he11, ng is going for over $16 an MCF in China.

I don't think they even have a word for regulations.

[sappstuf]

I assume its more economical in China because they're a "commie" state and don't operate under the same economics.

They aren't the only country.. Estonia and several others are processing oil shales as well.


In May 2009, Eesti Energia announced that it plans to build a new shale oil plant adjacent to the existing plant with processing capacity of 2.26 million tonnes of oil shale per year. It would produce 290,000 tonnes of shale oil and 75 million cubic meters of oil shale gas per year. The cost of the new oil plant is approximately 3 billion Estonian kroons (€191.7 million, US$264.2 million). The construction was launched in the second half of 2009, and it is expected to be commissioned in 2012.

[sappstuf]

Or regulations...he11, ng is going for over $16 an MCF in China.

Squirt!!

[soonercruiser]

I am calling BS on this entire report. Is anyone gonna sit here and say that area contains more oil than the rest of the world combined? How did they arrive at that number? This is only 1500 square miles out of a planet that is 195,000,000 square miles.

Now we're call BS on YOU Diver!

[okie52]

Squirt!!

LOL!!!

[soonercruiser]

Im Old, Im a Veteran, I live on the side of a Hill. Whats to figure?

Wow!
Sure glad OBama or Chris Matthews didn't have to answer that one on Jeopardy!
Really complex......
:02.47-tranquillity:

[soonercruiser]

Cruiser did you read any of this thread? Especially Skysooners comments.

Pi** off Diver!
My story sources were to the point that it was a GAO official who estimated the amount of oil resreves.

[diverdog]

Pi** off Diver!
My story sources were to the point that it was a GAO official who estimated the amount of oil resreves.

No they weren't and you jumped into a good thread without reading any of it.

[diverdog]

Somebody forgot to tell the Chinese...



http://www.ceri-mines.org/A02c-JialinQianpaper.pdf.pdf

For the bulk of the time they used it like coal. It is still not economical and very little of it meets our energy needs.

Shell is working on an interesting process. I will post the article later.

[jkjsooner]

Question: Let's say we get better and better at developing these sources of fossil fuels. What's to keep OPEC from flooding the market with cheap oil just long enough to put our domestic production out of business? Haven't they sort of played that trick in the past?

It seems to me that no matter how much we can get out of our land, OPEC still wields the power because places like Saudi Arabia can produce crude for much cheaper - unless we're willing to go the tariff route.

[okie52]

Question: Let's say we get better and better at developing these sources of fossil fuels. What's to keep OPEC from flooding the market with cheap oil just long enough to put our domestic production out of business? Haven't they sort of played that trick in the past?

Nothing really to keep that from happening other than the billions they would lose. One factor different now than in the past was when the SAudi's did it in the mid to late 80's China, India and some other developing countries were not players in the energy market. Plus the Opec countries are just about dependent on oil at high prices as the countries that are buying it from them to have the oil. The Russkies and Opec need the dough.

[pphilfran]

Question: Let's say we get better and better at developing these sources of fossil fuels. What's to keep OPEC from flooding the market with cheap oil just long enough to put our domestic production out of business? Haven't they sort of played that trick in the past?

It seems to me that no matter how much we can get out of our land, OPEC still wields the power because places like Saudi Arabia can produce crude for much cheaper - unless we're willing to go the tariff route.

It doesn't matter...every additional barrel we produce here keeps 50 or 100 bucks from going overseas...

[pphilfran]

And I am not so sure if Opec has the capability to ramp up production as they have had in the past...the field life is past it's prime though technology will surely help them...

How much oil sand in the Opec countries...anybody know?

[Skysooner]

Opec doesn't really have oil sands. Oil sand is a specific type of crude. What they have is spare capacity and world class reservoirs. The spare capacity isn't nearly as great as is generally thought right now. Our projections are for that capacity to increase in the near future due to increasing oil coming on in the US/Canada which will increase the OPEC supply. They are in a bit of a pickle right now. They need prices near $85/bbl or currently $70 in the US (reasons for this difference as well) in order to fund their social programs to prevent what has happened in other countries in the Mid-East. The more money spent on social programs, the less they have to spend on infrastructure development.

[okie52]

Opec doesn't really have oil sands. Oil sand is a specific type of crude. What they have is spare capacity and world class reservoirs. The spare capacity isn't nearly as great as is generally thought right now. Our projections are for that capacity to increase in the near future due to increasing oil coming on in the US/Canada which will increase the OPEC supply. They are in a bit of a pickle right now. They need prices near $85/bbl or currently $70 in the US (reasons for this difference as well) in order to fund their social programs to prevent what has happened in other countries in the Mid-East. The more money spent on social programs, the less they have to spend on infrastructure development.

Correct me if I'm wrong Sky but some OPEC countries like the Saudi's have low extraction costs but venezuela and others have a much higher extraction cost. I know Chavez was screaming when the price of oil dropped so low in 2009 because it was cheaper than he could produce it.

[jkjsooner]

It doesn't matter...every additional barrel we produce here keeps 50 or 100 bucks from going overseas...

How does that help if OPEC flooded the market and brought oil down to $30 / barrel and it became no longer economically feasible to drill here?


Just read okie52's post about Venezuela so I guess I can't consider all of OPEC as being Saudi Arabia like.

[pphilfran]

How does that help if OPEC flooded the market and brought oil down to $30 / barrel and it became no longer economically feasible to drill here?


Just read okie52's post about Venezuela so I guess I can't consider all of OPEC as being Saudi Arabia like.

They don't have the pull they once did...I still think they are at the limit of their cheap production but if they took it down the 30 bucks we would all be happy with buck fifty gas...

I still stand by my statement that every barrel of crude we produce here keeps dollars from going overseas...

[pphilfran]

And just because somebody might be able to do something about the cost is no reason to not maximize our own output...

[okie52]

They don't have the pull they once did...I still think they are at the limit of their cheap production but if they took it down the 30 bucks we would all be happy with buck fifty gas...

I still stand by my statement that every barrel of crude we produce here keeps dollars from going overseas...

Yep, domestic production does a lot of good things. As you've heard me preach before, 2/3 of our trade deficit is from imported oil.

[Skysooner]

Correct me if I'm wrong Sky but some OPEC countries like the Saudi's have low extraction costs but venezuela and others have a much higher extraction cost. I know Chavez was screaming when the price of oil dropped so low in 2009 because it was cheaper than he could produce it.

You are exactly right. Venezuela has a much heavier crude and once you throw processing fee on top of the extra cost to extract, their marginal cost of supply is much higher. He also has social programs that keep up from being ousted by the "common people". BTW, just got a call from Saudi Aramco. They are apparently sitting on a very large shale resource play. It won't affect NG here except it could throw an issue into LNG prices.

[jkjsooner]

And just because somebody might be able to do something about the cost is no reason to not maximize our own output...

How do you plan to do that if it isn't economically feasible? Are you going to impose tariffs? Are you going to give subsidies?

If it costs $40 / barrel to produce crude oil and you only get $30 / barrel for it then production would stop without government intervention.

A free market conservative would have a problem with government intervention whether it be tariffs or subsidies.

Maybe I'm wrong about OPEC. It just seems that history has shown that oil prices have been manipulated to control competition.

[okie52]

You are exactly right. Venezuela has a much heavier crude and once you throw processing fee on top of the extra cost to extract, their marginal cost of supply is much higher. He also has social programs that keep up from being ousted by the "common people". BTW, just got a call from Saudi Aramco. They are apparently sitting on a very large shale resource play. It won't affect NG here except it could throw an issue into LNG prices.

Where is their play...Saudi Arabia or elsewhere?

[okie52]

How do you plan to do that if it isn't economically feasible? Are you going to impose tariffs? Are you going to give subsidies?

If it costs $40 / barrel to produce crude oil and you only get $30 / barrel for it then production would stop without government intervention.

A free market conservative would have a problem with government intervention whether it be tariffs or subsidies.

Maybe I'm wrong about OPEC. It just seems that history has shown that oil prices have been manipulated to control competition.


The Saudis Need Those High Oil Prices


Oil sales make up 80 percent of Saudi government revenue, says Faisal Hasan, head of research at Kuwait-based Global Investment House. Two years ago the kingdom needed an oil price per barrel of around $70 in order to pay for its budget without tipping into deficit. For 2011, the Saudis’ break-even oil price was estimated by the International Monetary Fund to have risen to $80 a barrel, a figure that will increase to $98 a barrel by 2016. Saudi Arabia will have to keep spending heavily if it is to create 3 million jobs over the next three years, King Abdullah’s stated goal. The Saudis are spending on defense too: the U.S. has agreed to sell the country 84 F-15 fighter jets for $29.4 billion.


The bottom line: Saudi Arabia is spending at least $130 billion on a jobs and housing program at home, an effort that relies on expensive oil.http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-02-23/the-saudis-need-those-high-oil-prices

[diverdog]

Interesting article on Shell Oils foray into oil shale.


Oil Shale Reserves: Stinky Water, Sweet OilA Daily Reckoning White Paper Report
By Dan Denning
You won’t think much of Rio Blanco County if you ever drive through it. In fact, unless you take a right turn off Interstate-70 West at Rifle, head north on Railroad Avenue and then west on Government road to Colorado state highway number thirteen, odds are you’ll never even step foot in Rio Blanco County.
But even if you keep heading west toward Grand Junction, through the town of Parachute and the shuttered oil shale refineries from the 1970s, you’ll see the Book Cliffs geologic formation on your right. For miles and miles. It’s a bleak landscape. Almost lunar. At first glance, it’s the kind of land you’d never want to explore, much less settle down in.
Oil Shale Reserves : America’s Strategic Future
In the small world of geologists, though, the region is well-known. In fact, you might even say it’s the single
most important patch of undeveloped, unloved, and desolate looking land in America. But you’d never guess this particular corner of the Great American Desert may play an integral role in America’s strategic future just by looking at it. You’d never guess that the whole stretch of brown, red, and orange land contains enough recoverable oil and gas to make you forget about the Middle East for the rest of time.





There are places in Rio Blanco County like Stinking Water Creek, named after the smelly mix of oil and water the first white settlers found there, that tell you oil’s always been around the Rocky Mountains. It’s just not always been easy to find. It’s one thing to find oil that bubbles out of the ground in liquid form. It’s quite another to drill a thousand feet down, and encounter oil locked up tight inside a greasy rock.
The first seeping pools of oil were discovered in Western Colorado as far back as 1876, the year the state entered the Union. But exploration didn’t get serious until drillers settled in the town of Rangely in Rio Blanco County.
By 1903, thirteen different drillers had come and gone in Rangely. According to the local museum, the only six wells that actually struck oil were producing just two to ten barrels of oil a day. Hardly a Spindeltop, the gusher that launched the Texas oil-boom on January 10th, 1901, and immediately began producing 100,000 barrels per day.
The energy reserves of the Piceance Basin, upon which Rio Blanco County sits, contain massive petroleum reserves of a very unusual nature: Oil shale.
Oil Shale Reserves : A Congressional Legacy
Most of the nation’s oil shale reserves rest under the control of the U.S. government – a legacy of a 95-year old Congressional Act. In 1910, Congress passed the Pickett Act, which authorized President Taft to set aside oil- bearing land in California and Wyoming as potential sources of fuel for the U.S. Navy. Taft did so right away. The Navy was in the process of switching from coal burning ships to oil burning ships. And the U.S. military, conscious of the expanding role of America in the world, needed a dependable supply of fuel in case of a national emergency.


Read more: Oil Shale Reserves (http://dailyreckoning.com/oil-shale-reserves/#ixzz1v4igNo3G) http://dailyreckoning.com/oil-shale-reserves/#ixzz1v4igNo3G


http://dailyreckoning.com/oil-shale-reserves/

[soonercruiser]

Yep, domestic production does a lot of good things. As you've heard me preach before, 2/3 of our trade deficit is from imported oil.

Okie,
Here is a supportive story from Oklahoma.



Oklahoma tax collections continue to be robust, finance official says
Oklahoma is on an economic roll, Oklahoma's secretary of finance and revenue says. By Michael McNutt | Published: May 15, 2012 Oklahoman

Continued strong sales tax collections are continuing to help fuel Oklahoma's robust economic growth, a state finance official said Tuesday.

“Sales taxes were up almost 8 percent for the month and beat the official estimate by the same percentage,” said Preston Doerflinger, who serves as secretary of finance and revenue on Gov. Mary Fallin's Cabinet.
“This has been one of our strongest areas of growth all year.”

Earlier this year, the governor and lawmakers agreed to a supplemental appropriation that redirected $92.6 million in surplus oil funds to meet special needs, such as restoring $5,000 bonuses for Nationally Certified teachers and reimbursing local governments for disaster assistance. It also funded common education insurance benefits and a state trooper academy.

"I'm happy to announce that the oil surplus will be sufficient to fund those needs with money to spare,” Doerflinger said. “Already, $67.7 million in oil revenues have been redirected. We expect the remaining $24.9 million will be paid out of May collections.”

Taking away the diverted oil taxes, the state has had double-digit growth for seven of the first 10 months of this fiscal year, which ends June 30, he said.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-tax-collections-continue-to-be-robust-finance-official-says/article/3675749


But, then again, it's "dirty" oil money!
(sarcasm)

[Skysooner]

Has to be Saudi Arabia since they wanted me to head the effort and they only operate in Saudi.

[jkjsooner]

You won’t think much of Rio Blanco County if you ever drive through it. In fact, unless you take a right turn off Interstate-70 West at Rifle, head north on Railroad Avenue and then west on Government road to Colorado state highway number thirteen, odds are you’ll never even step foot in Rio Blanco County.

I thought for sure after reading this first sentence they had to be talking about eastern Colorado. Looks from Google images that Rio Blanco County has some mighty fine scenery.

[jkjsooner]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-02-23/the-saudis-need-those-high-oil-prices

It still sounds like they control the game. We can't extract oil at nearly the cost that they can.

Maybe they need $70 / barrel to break even but it's not an unheard of business practice to temporarily take losses to force your competitor out of business. And in their case, "taking losses" means from the government balance sheet prospective. They'd still be turning a hefty profit from the oil business itself.

It might not be in their best interest when it comes to oil competition but I do think that they manipulate prices to control alternative energy competition.

[okie52]

It still sounds like they control the game. We can't extract oil at nearly the cost that they can.

Maybe they need $70 / barrel to break even but it's not an unheard of business practice to temporarily take losses to force your competitor out of business. And in their case, "taking losses" means from the government balance sheet prospective. They'd still be turning a hefty profit from the oil business itself.

It might not be in their best interest when it comes to oil competition but I do think that they manipulate prices to control alternative energy competition.



Well they have the ultimate power...at least the Saudis do as far as being the cheapest on extraction costs. One reason I am for much more of our transporation being switched to NG...that is basically a regional product and we have a ton of it.