Rate the POTI: Start with Teddy [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

SicEmBaylor

5/4/2012, 01:27 AM

Leave off Obeary-

Reagan
Coolidge
Harding
Ike
Bush senior
Kennedy
Truman
Nixon
W
Der Schlickmeister
Teddy Roosevelt
Carter
FDR
Hoover
LBJ
Wilson

I don't know squat about Taft, so I don't know where I would put him.

The fact that you don't know squat about one of the most fundamentally conservative Presidents in American history is both telling and sad though not at all surprising considering your neocon proclivities.

SanJoaquinSooner

5/4/2012, 01:33 AM

Those bombs saved countless lives, and ended the WWII. 2nd best DPOTUS in the last century, maybe the best one, IMO.

Is it certain that he had to drop the bombs on heavily populated cities to convince them to surrender?

SicEmBaylor

5/4/2012, 03:15 AM

Is it certain that he had to drop the bombs on heavily populated cities to convince them to surrender?
I'm not sure dropping them on heavily populated cow pastures would have had the same effect.

We should have dropped a 3rd just for good measure.

SicEmBaylor

5/4/2012, 03:20 AM

The middle-of-the-pack is meangingless, so I'll give my top 5 and bottom 5.

Top 5 (from best to least):

1. Coolidge
2. Taft
3. Reagan
4. Clinton
5. Ike

Bottom 5 (from least to worst):
5. Wilson
4. W. Bush
3. Nixon
2. FDR
1. LBJ

diverdog

5/4/2012, 06:21 AM

FDR is number one and it ain't even close.

diverdog

5/4/2012, 08:26 AM

YOU FORGOT FORD!!! LMAO

Midtowner

5/4/2012, 09:05 AM

FDR
Wilson
Roosevelt
Truman
Reagan
McKinley
Nixon
Clinton
Ike
Bush I
JFK
Coolidge
Taft
Ford
Carter
Johnson
Bush Jr.
Hoover
Harding

diverdog

5/4/2012, 09:20 AM

FDR
Wilson
Roosevelt
Truman
Reagan
McKinley
Nixon
Clinton
Ike
Bush I
JFK
Coolidge
Taft
Ford
Carter
Johnson
Bush Jr.
Hoover
Harding

Great list except I would move Ike above Nixon. History is starting to see that he was a much better president than previously thought.

Nixon is one of my favorites after he left office. I do not think you would find a more humble and eloquent man than Nixon. His views on foreign policy were almost always spot on and he was an absolutely brilliant writer.

Teddy is the President that is by far my favorite. He had such an incredibly personality and was a real force of nature. TR set the tone for American policy for the following 100 years. Other than Jefferson I do not think there was a smarter man to occupy the White House. It would have been fun to get those two together. TR is the President that I most identify myself with and a personal hero.

KantoSooner

5/4/2012, 09:24 AM

Okie Dokey.

No Washington? No Lincoln?

And, for Goodness Sake, NO JAMES K. POLK ('Manifest Destiny' 'a continental republic')

For shame people, for shame.

Midtowner

5/4/2012, 10:05 AM

I was under the impression that this was a 20th/21st century list.

If that's the case, Washington/Jefferson/FDR/Lincoln at the top of the list and Buchanan at the bottom.

virginiasooner

5/4/2012, 10:09 AM

We should have dropped a 3rd just for good measure.

We only had two.

virginiasooner

5/4/2012, 10:13 AM

Great list except I would move Ike above Nixon. History is starting to see that he was a much better president than previously thought.

Nixon is one of my favorites after he left office. I do not think you would find a more humble and eloquent man than Nixon. His views on foreign policy were almost always spot on and he was an absolutely brilliant writer.

Teddy is the President that is by far my favorite. He had such an incredibly personality and was a real force of nature. TR set the tone for American policy for the following 100 years. Other than Jefferson I do not think there was a smarter man to occupy the White House. It would have been fun to get those two together. TR is the President that I most identify myself with and a personal hero.

I'd move LBJ up to behind Truman, just for the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. Reagan and Wilson need to be moved down a few spots, but I'm not sure how far. And Coolidge needs to move down the list to ahead of Hoover.

Midtowner

5/4/2012, 10:52 AM

BillyBall

5/4/2012, 11:19 AM

Okie Dokey.

No Washington? No Lincoln?

And, for Goodness Sake, NO JAMES K. POLK ('Manifest Destiny' 'a continental republic')

For shame people, for shame.

I'm not sure you saw the "Start with Teddy"...

Ike

5/4/2012, 11:47 AM

<---: 1st

All others: Last.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/4/2012, 12:35 PM

The fact that you don't know squat about one of the most fundamentally conservative Presidents in American history(Taft) is both telling and sad though not at all surprising considering your neocon proclivities.I know that the MSM hates him with a passion reserved for people like Reagan and Harding, but I just didn't know much about him. Tell us his strong points.

Also, I left out Jerry Ford, but nobody seemed to notice, huh? Your inclusion of Clinton at the top is sad. He's embarrassing, and I'm surprised you don't think so.

edit: sorry Diverdog, I decided to look at your posts, and corngrats, YOU noticed I left off Ford. Bully!...or, should I say beary?

KantoSooner

5/4/2012, 01:42 PM

I'm not sure you saw the "Start with Teddy"...
Nope, apparently not. Or we can just rack it up to historical dyslexia of some sort.

Hmm, Kind of a soft spot for Hoover, our last truly capitalist president, and considering that FDR's azz got saved by WWII, who knows if the New Deal was really necessary, but FDR's got to be there, too; he rolled up ownership of the planet for us for about a generation and a half. Good genes. Teddy I. Teddy II not so much.
All told, you'd be hardpressed to not vote for Ike. He pretty much formed our current international persona and got our economy back into normalcy without too much hoopla. Yep, Ike.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/4/2012, 02:00 PM

[QUOTE=KantoSooner;3474726] ...Hoover, our last truly capitalist president...

Explain this please. Kthanks

diverdog

5/4/2012, 02:07 PM

I know that the MSM hates him with a passion reserved for people like Reagan and Harding, but I just didn't know much about him. Tell us his strong points.

Also, I left out Jerry Ford, but nobody seemed to notice, huh? Your inclusion of Clinton at the top is sad. He's embarrassing, and I'm surprised you don't think so.

edit: sorry Diverdog, I decided to look at your posts, and corngrats, YOU noticed I left off Ford. Bully!...or, should I say beary?

I wasn't laughing at you. He just seems to be left off everyones list. I actually liked the guy and he should get kudo's for bringing the nation back together.

diverdog

5/4/2012, 02:10 PM

Nope, apparently not. Or we can just rack it up to historical dyslexia of some sort.

Hmm, Kind of a soft spot for Hoover, our last truly capitalist president, and considering that FDR's azz got saved by WWII, who knows if the New Deal was really necessary, but FDR's got to be there, too; he rolled up ownership of the planet for us for about a generation and a half. Good genes. Teddy I. Teddy II not so much.
All told, you'd be hardpressed to not vote for Ike. He pretty much formed our current international persona and got our economy back into normalcy without too much hoopla. Yep, Ike.

Kanto:

People have no idea how hard it was for FDR to fight WWII. The war killed him in the end. I vote him number one in this list for his shear leadership through one of the worst wars in human history. Go visit his library and you will have an entirely different opinion of the man.

I went to Ike's home outside of Gettysburg a few years ago with my scout troop. Everyone talked about how smart of a man he was and how he was one of the nicest people you would ever meet. Until Kennedy got shot you could go out an visit him. He loved people and he loved farming.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/4/2012, 02:19 PM

I wasn't laughing at you. He just seems to be left off everyones list. I actually liked the guy and he should get kudo's for bringing the nation back together.Ford was likeable, and Chevy Chase did his best to make sure Ford wouldn't get much support. He lost to Carter, fergodssakes!

SicEmBaylor

5/4/2012, 02:49 PM

I know that the MSM hates him with a passion reserved for people like Reagan and Harding, but I just didn't know much about him. Tell us his strong points.

Also, I left out Jerry Ford, but nobody seemed to notice, huh? Your inclusion of Clinton at the top is sad. He's embarrassing, and I'm surprised you don't think so.

edit: sorry Diverdog, I decided to look at your posts, and corngrats, YOU noticed I left off Ford. Bully!...or, should I say beary?

I did not know the 'MSM' had such a strong position on Taft one way or the other. I think I can certainly count on one hand the number of times I've ever heard anyone mention Taft.

KantoSooner

5/4/2012, 02:58 PM

Kanto:

People have no idea how hard it was for FDR to fight WWII. The war killed him in the end. I vote him number one in this list for his shear leadership through one of the worst wars in human history. Go visit his library and you will have an entirely different opinion of the man.

I went to Ike's home outside of Gettysburg a few years ago with my scout troop. Everyone talked about how smart of a man he was and how he was one of the nicest people you would ever meet. Until Kennedy got shot you could go out an visit him. He loved people and he loved farming.

FDR is a character who's fascinated me for a long time. I revere his wartime leadership (except for his pandering to Stalin when it was absolutely not necessary, but he was very sick by then and the 'body of work' outweighed selling eastern Europe into 50 years of slavery, I guess). What I don't revere is his authorship of inserting the government so deeply into the lives of individuals. And I don't buy that his policies really got us out of the depression, WWII did. So, I'm mixed on FDR. From the point of view of sheer impact, however, he's got to rated a 'great' president.

KantoSooner

5/4/2012, 03:00 PM

[QUOTE=KantoSooner;3474726] ...Hoover, our last truly capitalist president...

Explain this please. Kthanks

He was the last president who didn't fall back on big government solutions to economic hardships. Lost his presidency for it, but he didn't waver. We can't say that about Reagan, or either Bush. Ike had his heart somewhat in the right place with his distrust of the military/industrial complex. Nixon was an unrepentant big government guy.
So, that's what I was referring to.

SicEmBaylor

5/4/2012, 03:19 PM

[QUOTE=RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!;3474730]

He was the last president who didn't fall back on big government solutions to economic hardships. Lost his presidency for it, but he didn't waver. We can't say that about Reagan, or either Bush. Ike had his heart somewhat in the right place with his distrust of the military/industrial complex. Nixon was an unrepentant big government guy.
So, that's what I was referring to.

This is righteous; however, you may be giving Hoover a bit too much credit. He actually did support some limited-in-scope government programs to combat the depression. Certainly not to the extent of FDR but nonetheless.

8timechamps

5/4/2012, 05:23 PM

No love for Woodrow Wilson eh? He did some great things as POTUS, essentially the father of the U.S. dollar.

SicEmBaylor

5/4/2012, 05:45 PM

No love for Woodrow Wilson eh? He did some great things as POTUS, essentially the father of the U.S. dollar.

This is simply horrifying. The Federal Reserve Act has been the lubricant by which the size of our government has exploded while devaluing our currency and redistributing wealth.

Wilson's absurd and dangerous foreign policy views have provided both Republicans and Democrats with the blueprint by which we've conducted our foreign policy for decades. He replaced pragmatism on the world stage with idealism and put our nation on a path toward globalization and overseas empire at the expense of our treasury, sovereignty, and even individual liberty.

So, no, Wilson gets absolutely no love from me. However, Wilson's wife (I forget which one) was a member of the UDC so she gets some respect from me for that.

olevetonahill

5/4/2012, 06:02 PM

Best Prez. we ever had was Lincoln

8timechamps

5/4/2012, 08:09 PM

This is simply horrifying. The Federal Reserve Act has been the lubricant by which the size of our government has exploded while devaluing our currency and redistributing wealth.

Wilson's absurd and dangerous foreign policy views have provided both Republicans and Democrats with the blueprint by which we've conducted our foreign policy for decades. He replaced pragmatism on the world stage with idealism and put our nation on a path toward globalization and overseas empire at the expense of our treasury, sovereignty, and even individual liberty.

So, no, Wilson gets absolutely no love from me. However, Wilson's wife (I forget which one) was a member of the UDC so she gets some respect from me for that.

While I'll agree that the Fed is a monster (now), it once was a good idea.

Sic'em, I'm not sure if you're using Wikipedia for your opinions, or what, but before you are so critical of Wilson, you should look into the things he did to help this country. There's not a single president that is without blemish, and Wilson is certainly no different in that regard, but his positive actions greatly outweigh his negative ones.

SicEmBaylor

5/4/2012, 08:17 PM

Sic'em, I'm not sure if you're using Wikipedia for your opinions, or what, but before you are so critical of Wilson, you should look into the things he did to help this country. There's not a single president that is without blemish, and Wilson is certainly no different in that regard, but his positive actions greatly outweigh his negative ones.
lol, no, I don't get my opinions from Wikipedia. I've never outsourced my thinking to a community authored website.

It's kind of absurd to say that, despite what the Federal reserve and his foreign policy have evolved into, the good outweighs the bad. That's a bit like saying that, had it not been for starting WWII, Hitler actually did some pretty good things in Germany. You can't divorce the good from the bad so that you can only measure an individual based on the good.

Those are only two of Wilson's many many problems; however, I'm interested to hear about all of this "good" that Wilson was supposedly responsible for.

SicEmBaylor

5/4/2012, 08:18 PM

dasf

8timechamps

5/4/2012, 10:30 PM

dasf

When I get some time, and you're in a better condition :), I'll post some info.

I only know a lot about Wilson because I have a client that is a distant relative, and he has talked my ear off about him. Seriously, I wasn't that interested to begin with, but EVERY TIME I meet with the guy, that's 99% of the discussion. I'm not sure if it was osmosis, or just the constant droning, but in time, I actually began to find interest in his stories.

Anyway, gone to my kid's baseball tourney this weekend, will post more (because I know you're so very excited to hear) probably Monday.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/5/2012, 12:47 AM

I did not know the 'MSM' had such a strong position on Taft one way or the other. I think I can certainly count on one hand the number of times I've ever heard anyone mention Taft.Well, back before you were born, and prolly when you were young, I heard several nagative opinions of him, and never anything positive, from the media. Tell us some of his strong points, pls.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/5/2012, 12:53 AM

...And I don't buy that his policies really got us out of the depression, WWII did. So, I'm mixed on FDR. From the point of view of sheer impact, however, he's got to rated a 'great' president.If negative impact is equal to positive impact to you, then I guess he can be called Great. I personally think his policies were ludicrous, pathetic and damaging, and great is the wrong adjective.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/5/2012, 12:58 AM

[QUOTE=RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!;3474730]

He was the last president who didn't fall back on big government solutions to economic hardships. Lost his presidency for it, but he didn't waver. We can't say that about Reagan, or either Bush. Ike had his heart somewhat in the right place with his distrust of the military/industrial complex. Nixon was an unrepentant big government guy.
So, that's what I was referring to.We(I) should research, but it seems to me Hoover did several nannystate things before he lost the election to an other nannystater, FDR. If I catch enough crap for saying this, or if nobody confirms what I said in this post, I might be curious enough to read up more on Hoover.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/5/2012, 01:09 AM

The quote below is from Kanto, not me. I'm not sure why Sicem put my name there, instead of Kanto, but he did, and what Kanto said does not reflect what I think about Hoover.
---------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

He was the last president who didn't fall back on big government solutions to economic hardships. Lost his presidency for it, but he didn't waver. We can't say that about Reagan, or either Bush. Ike had his heart somewhat in the right place with his distrust of the military/industrial complex. Nixon was an unrepentant big government guy.
So, that's what I was referring to.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/5/2012, 01:13 AM

Woodrow Wilson was a disaster for America and the world, unfortunately. I too would like to hear some of what Wilson did that was actually good.

SicEmBaylor

5/5/2012, 02:09 AM

[QUOTE=KantoSooner;3474746]We(I) should research, but it seems to me Hoover did several nannystate things before he lost the election to an other nannystater, FDR. If I catch enough crap for saying this, or if nobody confirms what I said in this post, I might be curious enough to read up more on Hoover.
I didn't do that -- the tags were screwed up. Sorry.

cleller

5/5/2012, 08:19 AM

LBJ has to lose a few spots for escalating Vietnam while keeping our military's hands tied and killing 50,000 brave American men for no good reason. Whatever good he did eclipsed by the sheer stupidity of the Vietnam War.

LBJ and his Great Society brought on today's lack of self reliance, and destroyed the family unit as the primary source of support and security in America.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/5/2012, 01:29 PM

LBJ and his Great Society brought on today's lack of self reliance, and destroyed the family unit as the primary source of support and security in America.He was an especially stinky, Super Stinker, wasn't he? If an unnamed president was to resign in disgrace like LBJ, that would be his greatest (positive)achievement.

SanJoaquinSooner

5/5/2012, 06:44 PM

Well, allow me to remind all, that Hoover and Carter were engineers. Engineering is not good training for the U.S. Presidency.

Curly Bill

5/5/2012, 11:32 PM

Well, allow me to remind all, that Hoover and Carter were engineers. Engineering is not good training for the U.S. Presidency.

Nor is community organizer it would seem.

KantoSooner

5/7/2012, 08:50 AM

Rush, You will note that I used 'great' inside those little quotie things. That was to tip off readers that I was using the word in a sense other than it's first definition in the dictionary. In this case the reference was to the various 'Great Man' methods of interpreting history (which should be close to your heart as that is one of the major anti-socialist schools of interpretation). Under such a usage, FDR is undeniably 'great'. He formed our modern government, like it or don't. Hitler and Stalin would both be 'great' men as well. No one can argue that they dominated events around them for significant chunks of time. Think of Time's 'Person of the Year' and you've got the concept.

As to Hoover, of course he was not 100% consistent. No one who actually governs can be. (Consider the economic apostasy of Reagan and Bush at the same time they are generally considered to be 'conservative' presidents). Hoover was, however, the last president I can think of who truly fought to preserve small government. He also did so at a time when the entire thinking class were unified in favor of central planning to a degree that is unimaginable today. Hooever was a rock star character in the 1920's. A tremendiously successful businessman AND a respected intellectual. He was sort of Bill Gates and Chris Christy all in one. The tragedy of Hoover's fall was that very likely no one could have 'solved' the market crash and great depression by the time he got into office. And thus, everything he did and stood for was discredited. It was 20 years before policies that even vaguely resembling his were resurrected under Goldwater and not until Reagan that anyone who honestly believed in more than a pittance of them was elected.

49r

5/7/2012, 11:11 AM

Is there an actual purpose to this exercise?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/7/2012, 01:41 PM

...As to Hoover, of course he was not 100% consistent. No one who actually governs can be. (Consider the economic apostasy of Reagan and Bush at the same time they are generally considered to be 'conservative' presidents). Hoover was, however, the last president I can think of who truly fought to preserve small government. He also did so at a time when the entire thinking class were unified in favor of central planning to a degree that is unimaginable today. Hooever was a rock star character in the 1920's. A tremendiously successful businessman AND a respected intellectual. He was sort of Bill Gates and Chris Christy all in one. The tragedy of Hoover's fall was that very likely no one could have 'solved' the market crash and great depression by the time he got into office. And thus, everything he did and stood for was discredited. It was 20 years before policies that even vaguely resembling his were resurrected under Goldwater and not until Reagan that anyone who honestly believed in more than a pittance of them was elected.What caught my eyes in accounts I've read about hoover before, was that he did, indeed, enact some nannystate, big govt. socialist type actions well before the election of '32, which were at odds with what he might have done conservatively before.

SicEmBaylor

5/7/2012, 01:49 PM

What caught my eyes in accounts I/ve read about hoover before, was that he did, indeed, enact some nannystate, big govt. socialist type actions well before the election of '32, which were at odds with what he might have done conservatively before.

Hoover was not an ideological conservative -- Hoover's conservatism was more innate/sub-textual. Ideological conservatism didn't really exist at that time. Hoover's "conservatism" was more like Ike's"conservatism." Hoover had no intention of enacting some sort of socialist agenda. His conservatism had more to do with his temperament than with his non-existent ideology which made him more open to small incremental policy changes in an attempt to correct the economy, but it was never about socialism.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/7/2012, 01:50 PM

Is there an actual purpose to this exercise?If you like FDR, LBJ, Wilson, Carter, etc., just go ahead and say so.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

5/7/2012, 02:50 PM

Hoover was not an ideological conservative -- Hoover's conservatism was more innate/sub-textual. Ideological conservatism didn't really exist at that time. Hoover's "conservatism" was more like Ike's"conservatism." Hoover had no intention of enacting some sort of socialist agenda. His conservatism had more to do with his temperament than with his non-existent ideology which made him more open to small incremental policy changes in an attempt to correct the economy, but it was never about socialism.We're(I'm) gonna have to study Hoover some. I had seen in the past several things he did that were nannystate...which turned me off about his presidency. It seemed he was grasping for straws after the stock market crash of '29, and tried all kinds of things, including Big Government stuff.

KantoSooner

5/7/2012, 03:40 PM

If you look for nannystate in Hoover, you'll probably find enough examples to justify the judgement. On the other hand, the guy was a serious devotee of a capitalist economy and knew how one worked. He was also fully on board with a small government ethos, in part as Sicem points out, because that was the accepted norm, but also, in my view, because he really believed that government was largely a waste of money and that, in any event, if you had to have government action, it could be better carried out at the state and local levels.

I tend to give him something of a pass on several of the items he tried during the opening wave of the depression because of the deafening drumbeat of central planning boosterism he was getting. Times were not good. Recall that MacArthur had had to use uniformed troops with bayonets to clear the capitol mall of striking veterans not long before.

Anyway, you can make your own judgement on him and his presidency. In my view, he's gotten shafted by history, so far, because he was the guy standing there holding it, when the bag turned out to be full of dog doo.