I Love the Nanny State

[LiveLaughLove]

Obama is about to make farmers criminals or go broke. Good job nanny.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/25/rural-kids-parents-angry-about-labor-dept-rule-banning-farm-chores/

Kids on farms will not be allowed to do chores on those farms. I grew up on a farm. There's no way this will be a good ruling.

And they are replacing 4h and ffa safety training with, you got, federal government required safety training.

[pphilfran]

Just freeing up a few jobs for the illegals...

[yermom]

i don't understand the end game on this one

what problem are they fixing, exactly?

[Mississippi Sooner]

I know what my dad would have said if I would have told him the government says I don't have to go fix the fence or haul hay.

[LiveLaughLove]

i don't understand the end game on this one

what problem are they fixing, exactly?

The end game is more control over a small politically impotent class that has a lot of money.

Farmers are safe to **** off, they have no political Clout because they are too small in number and are generally conservative. A perfect power grab for Obama.

Of course this is just another small step in the degradation of our freedoms.

[olevetonahill]

I worked on the Ranch/Farm when I was a Kid. Dint have a food stamp card to buy a soda pop and or a candy bar with

[LiveLaughLove]

I know what my dad would have said if I would have told him the government says I don't have to go fix the fence or haul hay.


I shudder to think what my dad would have done. Our farm was a farm of racing greyhounds, but we had all livestock on it. We didn't do much "farming" but there were a ton of chores every day.

We couldn't have survived if he had to pay employees and all of the extra government fees that go with it.

[OULenexaman]

This is just beyond stupid.....no right reason what so ever behind it.

[cleller]

I think the whole idea is stupid, also, just more government intrusion. However, some of the wording:

"Prohibited places of employment,” a Department press release read, “would include country grain elevators, grain bins, silos, feed lots, stockyards, livestock exchanges and livestock auctions.”

...makes it sound like the main crackdown will be on places that actually hire kids, and pay them as employees. Still stupid, but maybe there will be lots of ways around this. I doubt there would be any enforcement on individual family farms.

What's funny is places feedlots would probably actually be more afraid of hiring an American 17 year old than your average illegal alien.

[Position Limit]

farms. some of the biggest welfare queens out there. we want that money yo, but dont regulate us yo!!! nanny state. obtuse drama queens... carry on

[LiveLaughLove]

farms. some of the biggest welfare queens out there. we want that money yo, but dont regulate us yo!!! nanny state. obtuse drama queens... carry on

Im all for doing away with subsidize and having you actually pay the true value of a loaf of bread on the open market. Something tells me you wouldn't like it. Nice attack though.

I suppose you don't have a problem with the regulation then. Good for you, there's a government job waiting for you. Enjoy.

[Position Limit]

Im all for doing away with subsidize and having you actually pay the true value of a loaf of bread on the open market. Something tells me you wouldn't like it. Nice attack though.

I suppose you don't have a problem with the regulation then. Good for you, there's a government job waiting for you. Enjoy.

i would just hedge the crap out of that exposure and buy hoagies. you not so much. you say off with the subsidy and no problem with market price of bread and i wouldnt like it? i say off with the mexicans and enjoy the market price of your tomato. me thinks you'd weep and wail either way. or you could explain your hedge against the brave new world. i'm interested.

[diverdog]

The end game is more control over a small politically impotent class that has a lot of money.

Farmers are safe to **** off, they have no political Clout because they are too small in number and are generally conservative. A perfect power grab for Obama.

Of course this is just another small step in the degradation of our freedoms.


Good lord. Explain to me why farmers should be exempt from child labor laws that apply to every other business in this country?

And your note about congress picking on farmers is nonsense. The ag community is the beneficiary of a lot of federal help....see farm bill.

[Position Limit]

Good lord. Explain to me why farmers should be exempt from child labor laws that apply to every other business in this country?

And your note about congress picking on farmers is nonsense. The ag community is the beneficiary of a lot of federal help....see farm bill.

good luck on an explanation. i'm still waiting on him to explain how removing a price subsidy on crop will make me fear the new price of bread. or sugar. especially sugar. must be voodoo economics. i guess in bizarro world removing of price support causes prices to go up.

[yermom]

Good lord. Explain to me why farmers should be exempt from child labor laws that apply to every other business in this country?

And your note about congress picking on farmers is nonsense. The ag community is the beneficiary of a lot of federal help....see farm bill.

babysitters and lawnmowers are next

[OU_Sooners75]

I think the whole idea is stupid, also, just more government intrusion. However, some of the wording:

"Prohibited places of employment,” a Department press release read, “would include country grain elevators, grain bins, silos, feed lots, stockyards, livestock exchanges and livestock auctions.”

...makes it sound like the main crackdown will be on places that actually hire kids, and pay them as employees. Still stupid, but maybe there will be lots of ways around this. I doubt there would be any enforcement on individual family farms.

What's funny is places feedlots would probably actually be more afraid of hiring an American 17 year old than your average illegal alien.

Ever been to a grain elevator, gainr bin or solo, a livestock auction, stockyard, or any other place that was named?

You do not find kids working there. What you do find is kids there with their parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles.

This isnt targeting places like those from hiring kids. This is targeting farms saying that kids are not allowed to do farm work in those areas.

This law is bull****! My first job was when I was 13. It was for an old farmer (a guy that took my brother and I to our first OU football game). We hauled hay. We feed cattle. We helped with livestock in all manners (birth, feeding, cleaning stalls, etc).

I can tell you this much. If it was not for that experience of my life, I would not be a hard *** worker as I am today.

[StoopTroup]

God forbid you mow your own yard

Also, work smarter not harder.

[OU_Sooners75]

farms. some of the biggest welfare queens out there. we want that money yo, but dont regulate us yo!!! nanny state. obtuse drama queens... carry on

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about do you?

It costs a lot of money to make that bread you like making a sandwich with. It costs a lot of labor hours to get that steak placed on your outdoor grill. It takes a lof of time and money get the food on your table.

And in doing so, the prices of the wheat, cattle, grains, etc are extremely low. Farmers do not make a good living. They work their asses off feeding the handout kings and queens of this world for little to no money.

Do they get a lot of grants and stuff? Yes. But those are mainly for upgrades, like farming equipment and storage spaces. The grants they get do not directly them buy a brand new house or to put food on their table.

The grants and handouts that farmers get are a lot better for American (and the world) than the handouts so many other Americans that are lazy and would rather not work get.

[OU_Sooners75]

God forbid you mow your own yard

Also, work smarter not harder.

What the **** are you talking about?

[StoopTroup]

If it hadn't been for me hanging out with my Father in the ER I wouldn't have ever been the smart worker I am now.

[OU_Sooners75]

Good lord. Explain to me why farmers should be exempt from child labor laws that apply to every other business in this country?

Because they are targeting farm chores for the farmers own children...thats why. In other words, they are entering into the family home and telling someone what they can and cannot make their children do.

[OU_Sooners75]

If it hadn't been for me hanging out with my Father in the ER I wouldn't have ever been the smart worker I am now.

Anyone can be a smart worker...and everyone should be. But the saying of being a hard worker isnt necessarily about finding hard work to do. It means working hard at whatever job you do.

Jesus bro.....go clear your mind.

[pphilfran]

If you are under 18 you cannot legally use a commercial cardboard compactor...

I would imagine that lawnmowers should be off limits to minors...

[C&CDean]

Anybody arguing the merit of any of Obama's ideas is a complete and total retard. This one is no exception.

[Position Limit]

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about do you?

It costs a lot of money to make that bread you like making a sandwich with. It costs a lot of labor hours to get that steak placed on your outdoor grill. It takes a lof of time and money get the food on your table.

And in doing so, the prices of the wheat, cattle, grains, etc are extremely low. Farmers do not make a good living. They work their asses off feeding the handout kings and queens of this world for little to no money.

Do they get a lot of grants and stuff? Yes. But those are mainly for upgrades, like farming equipment and storage spaces. The grants they get do not directly them buy a brand new house or to put food on their table.

The grants and handouts that farmers get are a lot better for American (and the world) than the handouts so many other Americans that are lazy and would rather not work get.

you seem confused. let my try to help. labor costs would remain the same. some might argue they would drop. unskilled labor is subjected to worldwide market place over a long enough timeline. so the only real variable to change would be the underlying crop that produces the hoagie roll. that underlying crop would be subjected to the same market the rest of the world sells crop for (in most cases cheaper). but famers here enjoy more forms of price support other than grants. trade tarriffs, tax breaks, protectionism etc...

and cry me a river about the plight of the poor farmer. first of all they are'nt supposed to make it big. they're farmers for crying out loud. and if they cant figure out a way to live in comfort with all that is available too them via the us government well that's on them. my father in law is cattle rancher and makes out great after all of the gov "handout" bull****.tax breaks, depreciation etc... farmers are wellfare queens that lavish in the handouts that you wail against for everybody else. like most on the right they want their handout with no questions asked.

let the weeping and wailing continue. reality be damned!!!!

[Sooner5030]

^^^please take depreciation expense off of your rant. It is not unique to farmers and many different methods of calculating depreciation have been accepted under GAAP for like 70 years now.

[OU_Sooners75]

you seem confused. let my try to help. labor costs would remain the same. some might argue they would drop. unskilled labor is subjected to worldwide market place over a long enough timeline. so the only real variable to change would be the underlying crop that produces the hoagie roll. that underlying crop would be subjected to the same market the rest of the world sells crop for (in most cases cheaper). but famers here enjoy more forms of price support other than grants. trade tarriffs, tax breaks, protectionism etc...

and cry me a river about the plight of the poor farmer. first of all they are'nt supposed to make it big. they're farmers for crying out loud. and if they cant figure out a way to live in comfort with all that is available too them via the us government well that's on them. my father in law is cattle rancher and makes out great after all of the gov "handout" bull****.tax breaks, depreciation etc... farmers are wellfare queens that lavish in the handouts that you wail against for everybody else. like most on the right they want their handout with no questions asked.

let the weeping and wailing continue. reality be damned!!!!

You do realize that what is given to them has to go to the farm, not their personal lives right?

If the farmers demanded a fair price, everyone in this nation would starve to death!

[pphilfran]

You do realize that what is given to them has to go to the farm, not their personal lives right?

If the farmers demanded a fair price, everyone in this nation would starve to death!

I don't think so....

[OU_Sooners75]

I don't think so....

Yeah they would. grain and beef prices are down right now. And if the farmers demanded a fair market price, the price of goods would go way up.

But we all know the Government wouldn't let that happen.

[pphilfran]

What do farmers do when they don't have kids...

How about when the little tyke is 5 years old...what happens when he grows up and moves away?

I am not a fan of the proposed work limits..

[diverdog]

Because they are targeting farm chores for the farmers own children...thats why. In other words, they are entering into the family home and telling someone what they can and cannot make their children do.

I am not against farm chores but there are jobs on a farm that kids should not be doing like driving motorized vehicles until they are 16 or older. I drove a pick up and a tractor when I was nine. That is not safe.

[diverdog]

You do realize that what is given to them has to go to the farm, not their personal lives right?

If the farmers demanded a fair price, everyone in this nation would starve to death!

pfft:

Milk and sugar would go down a lot. Get rid of ethanol and corn would tank. It is not such a big secret that the family farm is going the way of the dinosaur and it does not make a big difference in the price of food. If I were a farmer I would cater to the local niche markets.

[Chuck Bao]

I agree that this is stupid. I think tractors are also included in the age-inappropriate administrative regulation. At age 12, my dad put me on a tractor or driving hay trucks. By age 14, I was on the back of a hay truck and recruited my junior high/high school friends to work with me running a hay crew.

I agree with Clellar in that I highly doubt there would be any enforcement on individual family farms, at least not in Oklahoma. Our local police and elected county sheriff and district attorney wouldn't dare try to interfere with kids doing their farm chores. Hell, I was driving old hay trucks on the highway when I was 12 and they looked the other way.

4H will still exist. FFA will still exist. Who cares if they want to do a federal training course that won't allow under 18 to do farm work anyway? Yeah, I agree that it is incredibly stupid and unnecessary waste of taxpayers money in adopting this new regulation.

[Sooner5030]

most subsidies are for crop insurance and corn. The rest is pretty small in comparison. I hate Nebraska.....F them and their corn.....and Iowa too. BTW Iowa, Illinois and Neb are probably pretty high on the subsidy list. Cotton and dairy are on the list. Not sure why someone mention tomatoes earlier though.

And there is nothing wrong with a 15 year old operating some machinery. It depends on that particular 15 year old, the machinery and the supervision/training by the parents. Either way, i'd trust the parents judgment over the USDA/DOT.

[C&CDean]

Here's what I've learned so far from this thread:

There's a ****pot of people who know nothing about the farming business. Chuck ain't one of them.

All the farmers I know don't fit in the "gubmint subsidy" category. I know 1 or 2 who cop money from "programs" and even I; a couple years ago after an ice storm where I lost 3 miles of fence, about 100 fruit producing pecan trees that averaged $400 per tree per year, and lost some calves, finally got my first government check. It was almost $1,400. Less than the price of a single bull. Yeah buddy, us farmers are gettin' rich on gubmint programs. Meh.

Big corn gets all the $$. "Farmers" don't get ****.

[diverdog]

Here's what I've learned so far from this thread:

There's a ****pot of people who know nothing about the farming business. Chuck ain't one of them.

All the farmers I know don't fit in the "gubmint subsidy" category. I know 1 or 2 who cop money from "programs" and even I; a couple years ago after an ice storm where I lost 3 miles of fence, about 100 fruit producing pecan trees that averaged $400 per tree per year, and lost some calves, finally got my first government check. It was almost $1,400. Less than the price of a single bull. Yeah buddy, us farmers are gettin' rich on gubmint programs. Meh.

Big corn gets all the $$. "Farmers" don't get ****.

Dean:

Between 1995-2010 Oklahoma got $5.4 billion in farm subsidies. Most of that I suspect flows to big ag and are wheat subsidies. Here is link if you want to know who gets what:

http://farm.ewg.org/region.php?fips=40000

Out of our family my mom and dad are the only ones who still have a farm but they lease it out and are absentee land owners. The rest of our family lost everything. You just cannot make it on a family farm anymore unless you are highly specialized. Oil has kept a lot of farmers a float that would have normally gone under.

I have not read the regs but there is merit to child labor laws and farming. I know families that lost kids from farm accidents....tractors rolling over being one. The chemicals that are used on modern day farms especially up here in the east are very dangerous and kids should not be around them. I saw a cancer statistic that showed the rate of cancer for Maryland farmers and I was stunned. Farming is the only business that I know that is exempt from child labor laws and that puts a target on there back.

I would be curious to know why it is popping up know and what is driving it. If I were a betting man I would say it is probably from the hiring of migrant workers and some unscrupulous hiring on the part of big ag veggie farmers in California. Of course it could be propaganda from the Farm Bureau and the real regs are not as bad as advertised. None the less I am going to see if I can find the regs and see what they say.

[diverdog]

Here is the official press release from the Dept of Labor.

http://www.dol.gov/opa/media/press/whd/WHD20111250.htm

Based on my reading the proposed regs will not hit the Federal Register until September. So no one knows what is in them. The regs are not new and they are being updated from laws on the books from 1970. The press release also states that this does not affect family farms.

[OULenexaman]

Based on my reading the proposed regs will not hit the Federal Register until September. So no one knows what is in them. Kinda like Obamacare? So now we get Obamafarm. You gotta be $hittin me.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Obama is about to make farmers criminals or go broke. Good job nanny.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/25/rural-kids-parents-angry-about-labor-dept-rule-banning-farm-chores/

Kids on farms will not be allowed to do chores on those farms. I grew up on a farm. There's no way this will be a good ruling.

And they are replacing 4h and ffa safety training with, you got, federal government required safety training.


The proposal is a bad idea - employers should be able to hire whoever they determine is the most qualified. Period. Leave gov't out of it.

However, your claim appears incorrect. It has nothing to do with chores by kids growing up on a farm.

It says: The FLSA also provides a complete exemption for youths employed on farms owned by their parents.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Because they are targeting farm chores for the farmers own children...thats why. In other words, they are entering into the family home and telling someone what they can and cannot make their children do.

Literacy is a wonderful thing.

[ictsooner7]

I promised myself I wasn’t coming back but you idiots make this too much fun. Yet another rightwing blog made up lie you idiots fell hook line and sinker for. You people are laughable. In the regulation the second paragraph says this exempts kids working on farms owned by their parents. What a bunch of idiots you people are, laughable. People like you should not be allowed to vote, so stupid you can't even find the truth.



http://thegraph.com/2012/04/us-labor-department-is-not-banning-children-from-doing-farm-chores/

The department is proposing updates based on the enforcement experiences of its Wage and Hour Division, recommendations made by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, and a commitment to bring parity between the rules for young workers employed in agricultural jobs and the more stringent rules that apply to those employed in nonagricultural workplaces. The proposed regulations would not apply to children working on farms owned by their parents.

[olevetonahill]

Well there we have it, We done been skooled

[C&CDean]

People like you should not be allowed to vote, so stupid you can't even find the truth.The proposed regulations would not apply to children working on farms owned by their parents.

a) Did you type that first sentence with a straight face? Really?

b) What about farms owned by the neighbor, or their uncle?

c) You don't have to worry about responding since your commie *** is going to time out for being both ignorant and insulting.

[olevetonahill]

a) Did you type that first sentence with a straight face? Really?

b) What about farms owned by the neighbor, or their uncle?

c) You don't have to worry about responding since your commie *** is going to time out for being both ignorant and insulting.

Can ya make that a Perma?
Plus when I was a Kid I worked for my best Friends Dad. Id been screwed by this , Cause I was just a poor kid. and that 2 bucks a day I made was very welcome

[Soonerjeepman]

Ever been to a grain elevator, gainr bin or solo, a livestock auction, stockyard, or any other place that was named?

You do not find kids working there. What you do find is kids there with their parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles.

This isnt targeting places like those from hiring kids. This is targeting farms saying that kids are not allowed to do farm work in those areas.

This law is bull****! My first job was when I was 13. It was for an old farmer (a guy that took my brother and I to our first OU football game). We hauled hay. We feed cattle. We helped with livestock in all manners (birth, feeding, cleaning stalls, etc).

I can tell you this much. If it was not for that experience of my life, I would not be a hard *** worker as I am today.

AGREED...I worked at a grain elevator/crop fertilizer place...during college...I was the YOUNGEST guy there...at 20...

[OULenexaman]

somebody just got their specker cutoff....

[Bourbon St Sooner]

farms. some of the biggest welfare queens out there. we want that money yo, but dont regulate us yo!!! nanny state. obtuse drama queens... carry on

What do farm subsidies have to do with whether the regulation is good or not? Are you defending the regulation or just trying to bash farmers for getting subsidies? Tell us why it's a good regulation. I'm no fan of farm subsidies, but just because farms are subsidized doesn't mean every whim the gov't wants to impose on them is a good idea.

[badger]

I have been removed from America's Dairyland for awhile, but the way things were going up there, a lot of family farms were going out of business because it was just getting to damn expensive for the price they were getting for milk and livestock, compared to the rising costs of feed, farmland, equipment, etc.

There are definitely some farm jobs that kids can handle without it being excessive. One that immediately comes to mind if feeding calves. People that haven't done it definitely need to. When they're little, you feed them out of a giant bottle after they lick you with their giant tongues. Seriously, the cutest thing ever. It's not like every farm job out there is carrying bales of hay on your back or something.

Really, I wonder if the reason behind this is that Obama wants to down another hurdle to having year-round school. Why don't we have year-round school like other countries? Kids needed to help with farming season. If kids don't need to help with farming season... year-round school. Hmm...

[yermom]

eff that. i want summer breaks from work.

summer breaks for everyone!

[pphilfran]

Let me get this straight...it is not harmful for a child to do certain chores at home...but is so harmful when working outside the family farm that the work must be legislated out of existence...

[Mississippi Sooner]

I would just like to say that if you are running a goat farm, then you are pretty much living in a nanny state. Ya know?

[OU_Sooners75]

pfft:

Milk and sugar would go down a lot. Get rid of ethanol and corn would tank. It is not such a big secret that the family farm is going the way of the dinosaur and it does not make a big difference in the price of food. If I were a farmer I would cater to the local niche markets.

Not sure if you realize this or not, but the corn that is used for Ethanol is not the same corn that you eat.

Just wanted to point that out for you. But im sure you knew this since you think you know something about everything.

[pphilfran]

Not sure if you realize this or not, but the corn that is used for Ethanol is not the same corn that you eat.

Just wanted to point that out for you. But im sure you knew this since you think you know something about everything.

True...but what are they going to plant if they are not planting "ethanol" corn?

How many acres are going to be freed up? All of that acreage is going to sit idle?

[okie52]

Its really been hard for Icky to last on this board.

Maybe Holder should investigate.

[Curly Bill]

Its really been hard for Icky to last on this board.

Maybe Holder should investigate.

Only if icky is black. Otherwise he's gonna have to fend for himself.

[pphilfran]

Its really been hard for Icky to last on this board.

Maybe Holder should investigate.

I have to hand it to him...he lasted longer this time than I thought possible...

[okie52]

Only if icky is black. Otherwise he's gonna have to fend for himself.

I don't think he is Black but Ill bet he wears a hoodie.

[okie52]

I have to hand it to him...he lasted longer this time than I thought possible...

3...4...times he has gone on vacation?

[OU_Sooners75]

True...but what are they going to plant if they are not planting "ethanol" corn?

How many acres are going to be freed up? All of that acreage is going to sit idle?

Right now, those that produce corn for ethanol is making it better than if they were growing something else.

I don't blame a farmer trying to make some money.

However, some people try to say that corn is corn...and the corn they turn into ethanol and other products is the same as corn that you buy to eat.

[okie52]

Right now, those that produce corn for ethanol is making it better than if they were growing something else.

I don't blame a farmer trying to make some money.

However, some people try to say that corn is corn...and the corn they turn into ethanol and other products is the same as corn that you buy to eat.

I thought ethanol lost a lot of its subsidies, or was it just the blenders?

[OU_Sooners75]

I thought ethanol lost a lot of its subsidies, or was it just the blenders?

Ethanol did lose their subsidies, but with the oil prices as high as they are, Ethanol is still very competitive with gas. So the farmers that are growing corn for ethanol, they are still making better money from it than most other grain producers.

The subsidies were there really to help build the industry...and so far it is able to stand without the help of the federal government subsidies. Especially since there is a federal law that assures a long term share of the fuel market.

[okie52]

Ethanol did lose their subsidies, but with the oil prices as high as they are, Ethanol is still very competitive with gas. So the farmers that are growing corn for ethanol, they are still making better money from it than most other grain producers.

The subsidies were there really to help build the industry...and so far it is able to stand without the help of the federal government subsidies. Especially since there is a federal law that assures a long term share of the fuel market.

You said it and that's the key...mandated ethanol inclusion as a fuel source. You don't really need subsidies with that mandate.

[pphilfran]

It is not standing on it's own feet if there are mandates...

This is the future...far, far, into the future...

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/26/epa-reduces-its-cellulosic-ethanol-mandate-again-for-2012/

Remember five years ago, when cellulosic ethanol was going to fill our tanks without eating into food crops? The Environmental Protection Agency does, because it's had to keep rolling back the minimum renewable fuel standards put into place by the passage of the 2005 Energy Policy Act (H.R. 6). 2012 will be no different than the last two years, when the EPA backed off cellulosic ethanol targets of 100 million gallons in tanks for 2010 and 250 million gallons in 2011, reducing those figures to just 6.5 million gallons for both years. The EPA has proposed setting the 2012 requirement at 12.9 million gallons.

Part of the problem, the EPA says, is that suppliers have not created the biorefineries and thus not generated the production volume that was projected in 2005 when H.R. 6 was signed by then-president George W. Bush. "What's the hold up?" asked Nebraska representative Lee Terry. "I would have expected mass production by now," he commented during a hearing in May. In March, President Obama indicated a desire to get four new cellulosic ethanol refineries up and running by 2013.

Under the original plan laid out in H.R. 6, the U.S. should be using 1 billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol in 2013, a number also likely to be rolled back due to the lack of fuel available on the market, though the EPA says it will continue to evaluate the market and remains optimistic that celluloic ethanol will play a larger role in the nation's fuel mix.

[OU_Sooners75]

It is not standing on it's own feet if there are mandates...

This is the future...far, far, into the future...

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/26/epa-reduces-its-cellulosic-ethanol-mandate-again-for-2012/

Remember five years ago, when cellulosic ethanol was going to fill our tanks without eating into food crops? The Environmental Protection Agency does, because it's had to keep rolling back the minimum renewable fuel standards put into place by the passage of the 2005 Energy Policy Act (H.R. 6). 2012 will be no different than the last two years, when the EPA backed off cellulosic ethanol targets of 100 million gallons in tanks for 2010 and 250 million gallons in 2011, reducing those figures to just 6.5 million gallons for both years. The EPA has proposed setting the 2012 requirement at 12.9 million gallons.

Part of the problem, the EPA says, is that suppliers have not created the biorefineries and thus not generated the production volume that was projected in 2005 when H.R. 6 was signed by then-president George W. Bush. "What's the hold up?" asked Nebraska representative Lee Terry. "I would have expected mass production by now," he commented during a hearing in May. In March, President Obama indicated a desire to get four new cellulosic ethanol refineries up and running by 2013.

Under the original plan laid out in H.R. 6, the U.S. should be using 1 billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol in 2013, a number also likely to be rolled back due to the lack of fuel available on the market, though the EPA says it will continue to evaluate the market and remains optimistic that celluloic ethanol will play a larger role in the nation's fuel mix.


True, but there are mandates on just about everything when it comes to the fuel market. No matter what the source of the fuel, oil, corn, etc.

[pphilfran]

Right now, those that produce corn for ethanol is making it better than if they were growing something else.

I don't blame a farmer trying to make some money.

However, some people try to say that corn is corn...and the corn they turn into ethanol and other products is the same as corn that you buy to eat.

I am not faulting the farmers...

There is no proof that ethanol saves a single gallon of crude...it probably does but I doubt if it saves much...and it really isn't any cleaner than some carbon based energy....

[pphilfran]

True, but there are mandates on just about everything when it comes to the fuel market. No matter what the source of the fuel, oil, corn, etc.

That means nothing with regards to ethanol standing on it's own feet and surviving...

Would the ethanol industry survive (cost competitive) if there were no incentives or mandates to it's use?

[OU_Sooners75]

Also, one thing that people need to remember, it took a lot longer than 7 years for the oil refinery infrastructure to get into place, as it is today. Also the refineries were already in place by the time Gasoline and Diesel overtook the production of Kerosene.

[OU_Sooners75]

That means nothing with regards to ethanol standing on it's own feet and surviving...

Would the ethanol industry survive (cost competitive) if there were no incentives or mandates to it's use?

Actually I never said it stands on its own feet. I did say that it can stand without the subsidies though.

[OU_Sooners75]

That means nothing with regards to ethanol standing on it's own feet and surviving...

Would the ethanol industry survive (cost competitive) if there were no incentives or mandates to it's use?

As it gets more and more refined (as in more and more technologically able) yes. But like any other fledgling industry, it takes some time to hit its peak...and as long as the mandates are in place, then yes, they will be competitive...and that is not a bad thing.

But like anything else that the government wants to invest time and money in, if they pull the rug out from under them, it will falter.

The oil industry as a ton of mandates and incentives. Why shouldn't the newer industry as in ethanol have the chance to flourish as an alternative to oil?

[okie52]

It is not standing on it's own feet if there are mandates...

This is the future...far, far, into the future...

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/26/epa-reduces-its-cellulosic-ethanol-mandate-again-for-2012/

Remember five years ago, when cellulosic ethanol was going to fill our tanks without eating into food crops? The Environmental Protection Agency does, because it's had to keep rolling back the minimum renewable fuel standards put into place by the passage of the 2005 Energy Policy Act (H.R. 6). 2012 will be no different than the last two years, when the EPA backed off cellulosic ethanol targets of 100 million gallons in tanks for 2010 and 250 million gallons in 2011, reducing those figures to just 6.5 million gallons for both years. The EPA has proposed setting the 2012 requirement at 12.9 million gallons.

Part of the problem, the EPA says, is that suppliers have not created the biorefineries and thus not generated the production volume that was projected in 2005 when H.R. 6 was signed by then-president George W. Bush. "What's the hold up?" asked Nebraska representative Lee Terry. "I would have expected mass production by now," he commented during a hearing in May. In March, President Obama indicated a desire to get four new cellulosic ethanol refineries up and running by 2013.

Under the original plan laid out in H.R. 6, the U.S. should be using 1 billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol in 2013, a number also likely to be rolled back due to the lack of fuel available on the market, though the EPA says it will continue to evaluate the market and remains optimistic that celluloic ethanol will play a larger role in the nation's fuel mix.

Haha.

250,000,000 to 6,500,000. Now thats really hitting your mark.

[pphilfran]

As it gets more and more refined (as in more and more technologically able) yes. But like any other fledgling industry, it takes some time to hit its peak...and as long as the mandates are in place, then yes, they will be competitive...and that is not a bad thing.

But like anything else that the government wants to invest time and money in, if they pull the rug out from under them, it will falter.

The oil industry as a ton of mandates and incentives. Why shouldn't the newer industry as in ethanol have the chance to flourish as an alternative to oil?

Basically because I think it is a scam....

If we were starting off with sugarcane I could see it being competitive...

But starting with corn it can take as much in oil as is produced...it is not any cleaner...

Once cellulose based ethanol comes on line...hopefully... corn based is history...

In summary..

It is not cheaper
It is not cleaner
It is not the future

[okie52]

As it gets more and more refined (as in more and more technologically able) yes. But like any other fledgling industry, it takes some time to hit its peak...and as long as the mandates are in place, then yes, they will be competitive...and that is not a bad thing.

But like anything else that the government wants to invest time and money in, if they pull the rug out from under them, it will falter.

The oil industry as a ton of mandates and incentives. Why shouldn't the newer industry as in ethanol have the chance to flourish as an alternative to oil?

Ethanol could be $100 a gallon but if it is mandated to be included then we have to pay for it.

What are those oil industry mandates?

By incentives if you mean tax deductions then yes, the oil industry gets the same tax deductions as the rest of the manufacturing industry.

[pphilfran]

Haha.

250,000,000 to 6,500,000. Now thats really hitting your mark.

I laughed also...I am pretty sure companies got fined for not using enough even though there was not enough supply available...

[okie52]

I laughed also...I am pretty sure companies got fined for not using enough even though there was not enough supply available...

Yeah, I remember that article too. Haha.

[diverdog]

Right now, those that produce corn for ethanol is making it better than if they were growing something else.

I don't blame a farmer trying to make some money.

However, some people try to say that corn is corn...and the corn they turn into ethanol and other products is the same as corn that you buy to eat.

So it doesn't drive up the cost of feed for livestock?

[pphilfran]

Actually I never said it stands on its own feet. I did say that it can stand without the subsidies though.

I stand corrected...

[Sooner5030]

Ethyl Alcohol as a fuel was around long before gasoline and subsidies. Of course, you didn't have meet the BATF still requirements and inspection back then either......oh and you didn't have to use the corrosive denaturing additives back then either.

[olevetonahill]

I use chops fer my Ethel
Jes sayin :unconscious:

[OU_Sooners75]

Basically because I think it is a scam....

If we were starting off with sugarcane I could see it being competitive...

But starting with corn it can take as much in oil as is produced...it is not any cleaner...

Once cellulose based ethanol comes on line...hopefully... corn based is history...

In summary..

It is not cheaper
It is not cleaner
It is not the future

Man, we are spinning this damn discussion all over the board!

Never said it was cheaper. Said it was competitive with the high oil prices right now.
Never said it was cleaner.
Never said it was the future. However, the ethanol industry is.

[OU_Sooners75]

So it doesn't drive up the cost of feed for livestock?

No, it doesnt drive up the cost of feed.

http://www.americancattlemen.com/articles/ethanol-impact-feed-prices


Despite unsupported and hysterical claims, the battle between ethanol production and food and feed resources is not a battle at all. In fact, it is a symbiotic relationship that promises to provide long term financial gain for livestock and ethanol producers alike.


First, it is critical that all sides in the debate agree to the facts. Ethanol production from corn is not leading to a shortage of grain for livestock feed. Quite the opposite is true. Because ethanol production produces both fuel and livestock feed, its quickly becoming a driving market force in the location and production of beef and dairy cattle.

...

In 2009, ethanol biorefineries converted 3.8 billion bushels of corn into a record 10.75 billion gallons of ethanol and a record 30.5 million metric tons of high-value livestock feed, distillers grains and corn gluten feed and meal. To put that into perspective, the 30.5 million metric tons of feed generated by the industry in 2009 is roughly equivalent to the total amount of grain fed to cattle in the nation’s feedlots.


This point is one that doesn’t get a lot of press attention, but is critical to both an informed debate on biofuels policy and the bottom lines of ethanol and livestock producers alike.

[okie52]

Man, we are spinning this damn discussion all over the board!

Never said it was cheaper. Said it was competitive with the high oil prices right now.
Never said it was cleaner.
Never said it was the future. However, the ethanol industry is.

I still didn't hear what those oil industry madates are?

The ethanol industry is the future?

[OU_Sooners75]

I still didn't hear what those oil industry madates are?

The ethanol industry is the future?

Not in oil industry, but there are some....especially hitting heating oil.

The ethanol industry may never take over oil, but it is indeed going to be part of the future, especially when more biocellulose refineries get up and online.

[yermom]

i'd rather be running a car on CNG

i don't want that ethanol poison in my car. and i don't like Monsanto making any more money.

[diverdog]

As it gets more and more refined (as in more and more technologically able) yes. But like any other fledgling industry, it takes some time to hit its peak...and as long as the mandates are in place, then yes, they will be competitive...and that is not a bad thing.

But like anything else that the government wants to invest time and money in, if they pull the rug out from under them, it will falter.

The oil industry as a ton of mandates and incentives. Why shouldn't the newer industry as in ethanol have the chance to flourish as an alternative to oil?

We had E85 forced on us in Delaware and I hate it. I had to spend hundreds of dollars to add filters to my fuel lines in my boat and it degraded the gas containers. No one up here likes E85 and it would not be used if it were not mandated.

[diverdog]

Not in oil industry, but there are some....especially hitting heating oil.

The ethanol industry may never take over oil, but it is indeed going to be part of the future, especially when more biocellulose refineries get up and online.

What are the mandates or subsidies on heating oil? The only one I know of is for poor people who use it to heat their home.

[OU_Sooners75]

We had E85 forced on us in Delaware and I hate it. I had to spend hundreds of dollars to add filters to my fuel lines in my boat and it degraded the gas containers. No one up here likes E85 and it would not be used if it were not mandated.

And yet, there are stations that do have pur gasoline. You do not have to run with E85. That said, pure gasoline is more expensive than any gas with ethanol.

[OU_Sooners75]

What are the mandates or subsidies on heating oil? The only one I know of is for poor people who use it to heat their home.

Google is a good research tool. Try using it instead of expecting everyone else to do the work for you.


lazy *** libtard! :)

[diverdog]

And yet, there are stations that do have pur gasoline. You do not have to run with E85. That said, pure gasoline is more expensive than any gas with ethanol.

Delaware is under a clean air mandate by the feds along with a bunch of other states along the I-95 corridor. We cannot get gas without E85 or E90. Even super premium is a blend.

[diverdog]

Google is a good research tool. Try using it instead of expecting everyone else to do the work for you.


lazy *** libtard! :)

I did and it said it was for the poor as I suspected. I heat my house with oil and there are months where it has cost me almost a grand to fill my tank.

[OU_Sooners75]

Delaware is under a clean air mandate by the feds along with a bunch of other states along the I-95 corridor. We cannot get gas without E85 or E90. Even super premium is a blend.

Weird, I have never been to Delaware, and yet I can find that it is not a mandatory E10 state....but nice try!

http://e0pc.com/DE.php

[OU_Sooners75]

I did and it said it was for the poor as I suspected. I heat my house with oil and there are months where it has cost me almost a grand to fill my tank.

So there are mandates. hmmmm

[okie52]

Not in oil industry, but there are some....especially hitting heating oil.

The ethanol industry may never take over oil, but it is indeed going to be part of the future, especially when more biocellulose refineries get up and online.

I'm unaware of any "mandates" as far as the inclusion of oil or ng as a fuel source. There has never been a need for it as the product sells itself.

I don't share your enthusiasm for ethanols future. It's been around for decades and still isn't a viable alternative and offers nothing to encourage its use (outside of gov subsidies).

[diverdog]

Weird, I have never been to Delaware, and yet I can find that it is not a mandatory E10 state....but nice try!

http://e0pc.com/DE.php

Well come up here and try to find gas without ethanol blend.


The Environmental Protection Agency announced that effective May 6th, 2006, federal regulators no longer require an oxygenate additive (which helps gasoline to burn more cleanly and efficiently) in smog-afflicted areas required to use reformulated gasoline (which includes Delaware). As a result, the additive methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE) is no longer required to be added to gasoline. But even before the EPA's announcement, refiners and distributors of gasoline sold in the Northeast Region had decided to drop the controversial additive, which has proven to contaminate soil and drinking water after leaking from underground storage tanks. Instead of dropping an additive altogether, refiners decided to substitute Ethanol in place of MTBE, in a 90% Gasoline/10% Ethanol blend (E10), for various reasons. Therefore, during the course of Spring/Summer 2006, E10 will be produced and distributed to the Delaware motoring public.
The Delaware Motor Fuel Tax Administration is working diligently, in conjunction with the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control, to educate retail gasoline station operators and the motoring public about the fuel composition change. Motor Fuel Tax is providing gas pump labels to all Retail Dealers, to insure that these stations are able to meet the labeling requirement of Gasoline Regulation B (3). After the initial distribution, Motor Fuel Tax will provide additional labels at a cost of $1.00 per label.

[diverdog]

So there are mandates. hmmmm

No it is not a mandate. It is a subsidy so the poor can heat their homes. It is also offered on electricity and natural gas.

[OU_Sooners75]

Well come up here and try to find gas without ethanol blend.

You do realize that it is almost the same way in Oklahoma, right? You can find it without ethanol, but it is getting rarer than ever.

Doesn't mean it is a clean air mandate or whatver....because Ethanol is not any cleaner than gasoline.


And Okie...I am not all that enthusatic about ethanol. I wish that Natural Gas would get a bigger piece of the pie.

[diverdog]

You do realize that it is almost the same way in Oklahoma, right? You can find it without ethanol, but it is getting rarer than ever.

Doesn't mean it is a clean air mandate or whatver....because Ethanol is not any cleaner than gasoline.


And Okie...I am not all that enthusatic about ethanol. I wish that Natural Gas would get a bigger piece of the pie.

Well if you can ever figure out what type of gas we buy in the East you are smarter than I am. Because of air pollution regulations we get 10 different blends of gas. All our gas pumps have emissions capture equipment to gather the fumes from fueling so it does not add to the ground level pollution. Most of the pollution in Delaware is not from Delaware but from the Ohio River Valley where all the coal fired plants are located plus we get a ton of auto emissions from Baltimore and DC.

I am all for conversion to NG.

[okie52]

And Okie...I am not all that enthusatic about ethanol. I wish that Natural Gas would get a bigger piece of the pie.

Sorry 75, I misunderstood.

[okie52]

Well if you can ever figure out what type of gas we buy in the East you are smarter than I am. Because of air pollution regulations we get 10 different blends of gas. All our gas pumps have emissions capture equipment to gather the fumes from fueling so it does not add to the ground level pollution. Most of the pollution in Delaware is not from Delaware but from the Ohio River Valley where all the coal fired plants are located plus we get a ton of auto emissions from Baltimore and DC.

I am all for conversion to NG.

He11 , diver, you should have put in your lease the right to use gas for your property...free energy.

[diverdog]

He11 , diver, you should have put in your lease the right to use gas for your property...free energy.

Can you do that?

It is actually moms lease but she is going to use it to fund the grandkids college.

[okie52]

Can you do that?

It is actually moms lease but she is going to use it to fund the grandkids college.

Most of the old leases had that provision in them for their farms. Don't see them much anymore because of the liability to the operators. Use to have (and some still do) the right to take the royalty in kind...a lot cheaper than getting it through your gas company.

[diverdog]

Most of the old leases had that provision in them for their farms. Don't see them much anymore because of the liability to the operators. Use to have (and some still do) the right to take the royalty in kind...a lot cheaper than getting it through your gas company.

Well there would also be the problem of building a pipeline from Kingfisher County Oklahoma all the way up to Delaware. If the Koch Brothers can't get Keystone done I do not have a chance in hell. LOL

[okie52]

Well there would also be the problem of building a pipeline from Kingfisher County Oklahoma all the way up to Delaware. If the Koch Brothers can't get Keystone done I do not have a chance in hell. LOL

Oh I thought you were talking about your land in Delaware.

[diverdog]

Oh I thought you were talking about your land in Delaware.

LOL

What land in Delaware? Hell I could by three farms in Oklahoma for what my half acre lot cost me in Delaware and I live in a blue collar neighborhood. Besides that the only gas we got up here is from chicken farts.

[okie52]

Supposedly the Marcellus extends over to DE. But it, like NJ, may never be drilled.

[diverdog]

Supposedly the Marcellus extends over to DE. But it, like NJ, may never be drilled.

I do not think it does and if it does it would be in Northern Delaware in the Chateau country. If that is the case you are right it would never be drilled. To many rich people live in that area.

[pphilfran]

Man, we are spinning this damn discussion all over the board!

Never said it was cheaper. Said it was competitive with the high oil prices right now.
Never said it was cleaner.
Never said it was the future. However, the ethanol industry is.

I didn't mean to imply you made those statements...

They are my statements..

[okie52]

I do not think it does and if it does it would be in Northern Delaware in the Chateau country. If that is the case you are right it would never be drilled. To many rich people live in that area.

NJ passed a Fracking ban.