This guy is trying to take a job from a REAL American

[cccasooner2]

kinda-sorta

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/24/11369925-can-an-illegal-immigrant-become-a-lawyer?lite

[Dio]

seems pretty simple here:

1) get citizenship/ legal status
2) get job

As a country, do we really want important legal decisions being driven by people who aren't even citizens?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

What Dio says. He should not be allowed to practice law. Let him become legal, then reapply.

[Curly Bill]

seems pretty simple here:

1) get citizenship/ legal status
2) get job

As a country, do we really want important legal decisions being driven by people who aren't even citizens?

Why not? We elected one to be POTUS. LOL

[jkjsooner]

What Dio says. He should not be allowed to practice law. Let him become legal, then reapply.

I agree but there should be some sort of speedy avenue for people in his shoes to become citizens or to get some type of permanent work visa.

We can talk tough all we want but this guy didn't choose to come here and he may not even have the tools necessary to function in his home country. Once we allowed his parents to raise him in this country I think we took on the moral obligation to accept him as an American.

[Midtowner]

If someone comes here after the age of 18, I say eff 'em. If they're brought over here as children, what do we expect them to do? Wait until they're 18, get themselves back to wherever "home" is, then apply for citizenship? That's not very pragmatic.

[okie52]

If someone comes here after the age of 18, I say eff 'em. If they're brought over here as children, what do we expect them to do? Wait until they're 18, get themselves back to wherever "home" is, then apply for citizenship? That's not very pragmatic.

If they can't get a job or benefits what are they going to do?

[jkjsooner]

If they can't get a job or benefits what are they going to do?

Do you think it's ethical to deny them the ability to work when they were brought over here as a young child, probably have limited knowledge of their home culture, and might not even speak the language?

This particular man was nine when his parents brought him over so I'm sure his Spanish is still pretty good but it would still be asking a lot to expect him to assimilate back into Mexican society.


This is all why we need to remove the incentives for those to come over illegally but when we do that we need protections for the innocents who were caught up in this.

In some respects the system failed this guy from both ends. He was allowed to stay (whether legal or not) and spend no telling how much putting himself through school. He was allowed to study his butt off to pass the bar only to be denied after passing it.

[pphilfran]

Our immigration policy created this problem...

No benefits, no school, no jobs to illegals....and we don't have this problem...

What happens if Pedro and his little lady are over with proper work visas and the little lady dominoes while working the field?

[okie52]

Do you think it's ethical to deny them the ability to work when they were brought over here as a young child, probably have limited knowledge of their home culture, and might not even speak the language?

This particular man was nine when his parents brought him over so I'm sure his Spanish is still pretty good but it would still be asking a lot to expect him to assimilate back into Mexican society.


This is all why we need to remove the incentives for those to come over illegally but when we do that we need protections for the innocents who were caught up in this.

In some respects the system failed this guy from both ends. He was allowed to stay (whether legal or not) and spend no telling how much putting himself through school. He was allowed to study his butt off to pass the bar only to be denied after passing it.

Completely ethical. At what point did this guy realize he was here illegally? Did he just wake up to that fact after he finished law school or did he know it when he was 10?

[jkjsooner]

Our immigration policy created this problem...

No benefits, no school, no jobs to illegals....and we don't have this problem...

What happens if Pedro and his little lady are over with proper work visas and the little lady dominoes while working the field?

I'm not sure what dominoes means but I agree with the first two paragraphs.

I think the solution is a combination of amnesty and tough laws against hiring undocumented workers. I don't know why that can't be agreed upon. It's a compromise that gives both sides something and really would solve the problem.

Obviously amnesty by itself won't work. Reagan tried that and the results were completely predictable but if we remove the incentive for more people to come at the same time the results would not be a repeat of what we had back in the '80s.

I know some people don't like rewarding those who came here illegally but there really is no better solution. (We can't deport them all and removing such a large number from the workforce immediately via tough hiring laws would be very disruptive to the economy.) And let's be honest most of them are just hard working people trying to make life a little better for their families.

If full amnesty isn't palatable I think there should at least be partial amnesty for folks like this guy - with tougher hiring enforcement as well.

[okie52]

I'm not sure what dominoes means but I agree with the first two paragraphs.

I think the solution is a combination of amnesty and tough laws against hiring undocumented workers. I don't know why that can't be agreed upon. It's a compromise that gives both sides something and really would solve the problem.

Obviously amnesty by itself won't work. Reagan tried that and the results were completely predictable but if we remove the incentive for more people to come at the same time the results would not be a repeat of what we had back in the '80s.

I know some people don't like rewarding those who came here illegally but there really is no better solution. (We can't deport them all and removing such a large number from the workforce immediately via tough hiring laws would be very disruptive to the economy.) And let's be honest most of them are just hard working people trying to make life a little better for their families.

If full amnesty isn't palatable I think there should at least be partial amnesty for folks like this guy - with tougher hiring enforcement as well.

Our fearless leader fought an AZ law that punished people that knowingly employed illegals. Fortunately the SC overwhelmingly upheld the AZ law that was signed by none other than Obama's own Secretary of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano.

Take away the illegals jobs and benefits and most will leave. Reward them with citizenship and you just continue the cycle.

[OULenexaman]

I'm not sure what dominoes means. Let's try with....the bun in the oven is done and on the table.

[yermom]

so a lawyer from another country can't practice law in the US even if they pass the bar? they have to be a citizen?

[pphilfran]

so a lawyer from another country can't practice law in the US even if they pass the bar? they have to be a citizen?

I believe it would be a state issue...

[Petro-Sooner]

I'm not sure what dominoes means. Let's try with....the bun in the oven is done and on the table.

Learn something new everyday.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

seems pretty simple here:

1) get citizenship/ legal status
2) get job

What Dio says. He should not be allowed to practice law. Let him become legal, then reapply.

I'm not sure how this is simple. With the guidance of an attorney, might qualify for legal status if he marries a female U.S. citizen. Other than that, how would he be qualified to apply?

I've heard innumerable times, "go home and get in line," but there would need to be a line for which he's qualified for that advice to make sense.

[OU_Sooners75]

I'm not sure how this is simple. With the guidance of an attorney, might qualify for legal status if he marries a female U.S. citizen. Other than that, how would he be qualified to apply?

I've heard innumerable times, "go home and get in line," but there would need to be a line for which he's qualified for that advice to make sense.

http://www.us-immigration.com/us-citizenship-and-naturalization-application.jsp?gclid=CPjX94Tr1a8CFQu4tgodFn9Adg

It may be a tedious process, but it isn't hard to file an application to become a US Citizen or for a US Green Card.


My grandmother came over here from England after WWII, marrying my grandfather via the Trans-Atlantic Phone line. Just because she was married to a US National didnt mean she would get the fast track to Citizenship. It took her 13 years to gain full US Citizenship. Until that happened, she had her green card. Had they divorced, there was a chance she would have been deported.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://www.us-immigration.com/us-citizenship-and-naturalization-application.jsp?gclid=CPjX94Tr1a8CFQu4tgodFn9Adg

It may be a tedious process, but it isn't hard to file an application to become a US Citizen or for a US Green Card.


My grandmother came over here from England after WWII, marrying my grandfather via the Trans-Atlantic Phone line. Just because she was married to a US National didnt mean she would get the fast track to Citizenship. It took her 13 years to gain full US Citizenship. Until that happened, she had her green card. Had they divorced, there was a chance she would have been deported.

You're right, it isn't hard to file an application. But it is hard to be qualified for approval. Other than marrying a U.S. citizen, on what basis could he be approved?


It's like a 12 year old can fill out an application for a drivers license, but that doesn't imply the application will be approved. You got to be qualified.

[5thYearSooner]

"They came on tourist visas, which they overstayed"
Since he was only 9 I don't see it as a violation he committed.

We have doctors and engineers from other countries who are not citizens. I don't know if there is a work visa for non US citizens but if there is one, he should apply for work visa and if meets the criteria he should be given a Visa. He says
"“For me, it’s very important to show that I have been a contributing member of society (the) entire time I have lived in this country,” “ … there’s no reason why I shouldn’t be allowed to contribute even more … with a green card.”"
IMO, Giving green card to this guy sets a bad example. Its unfair to those who legally came and are waiting to get their Green Card and it encourages people to overstay their Visas.
Here is a thought, Imagine a good international student who decides to overstay his/her student visa..Will he be given Green Card as he/she is Good student and human?
A lot of international students apply for the work permit and wait in the line and get their Green Card. As a "pardon" this guy should be allowed to apply for work visa and stand in line for his turn to get Green Card.
The Undocumented(illegal) Immigrants issue should be taken up case by case (no criminal history) and they should be given work visa(if eligible).

[SanJoaquinSooner]

"They came on tourist visas, which they overstayed"
Since he was only 9 I don't see it as a violation he committed.

We have doctors and engineers from other countries who are not citizens. I don't know if there is a work visa for non US citizens but if there is one, he should apply for work visa and if meets the criteria he should be given a Visa. He says
"“For me, it’s very important to show that I have been a contributing member of society (the) entire time I have lived in this country,” “ … there’s no reason why I shouldn’t be allowed to contribute even more … with a green card.”"
IMO, Giving green card to this guy sets a bad example. Its unfair to those who legally came and are waiting to get their Green Card and it encourages people to overstay their Visas.
Here is a thought, Imagine a good international student who decides to overstay his/her student visa..Will he be given Green Card as he/she is Good student and human?
A lot of international students apply for the work permit and wait in the line and get their Green Card. As a "pardon" this guy should be allowed to apply for work visa and stand in line for his turn to get Green Card.
The Undocumented(illegal) Immigrants issue should be taken up case by case (no criminal history) and they should be given work visa(if eligible).

I think he would need a labor certification, and I don't know how he could get that without an employer offering him a job on the basis of being the most qualified applicant. Without a license to practice law, I don't know how that would work. I think one would need the license first before a labor certification could be granted. And I have no idea if attorney is a job category that qualifies for labor certication.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

well the Thunder beat (just by a pubic hair) the Mavericks this evening.

[soonercruiser]

GO SPURS!

[SanJoaquinSooner]

GO SPURS!

Yeah, Parker and Ginobili, just like Dirk, took roster spots from REAL Americans.

And the Thunder's Sefolosha and Ibaka did the same thing.

As a result, there are probably five more unemployed roundballers roaming the ghettos impregnating welfare women.

[yermom]

oh, snap

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Our politicians created this problem...



FIFY

[Bourbon St Sooner]

If he's a lawyer, send him home. We've got enough of those. If he cleans toilets he can stay.

[OULenexaman]

and mow lawns....

[jkjsooner]

Yeah, Parker and Ginobili, just like Dirk, took roster spots from REAL Americans.

And the Thunder's Sefolosha and Ibaka did the same thing.

As a result, there are probably five more unemployed roundballers roaming the ghettos impregnating welfare women.

I was wondering how the Thunder comment related to this thread. I now see it was a set up.

I do think that the "taking my job" argument doesn't really resonate when we're talking about the highest levels. Nobody really cares if some Indian takes a CEO position. The same with NBA players. If the job pays tens of millions of dollars then you should expect worldwide competition.

It's a different matter when we're discussing foreigners flooding the labor market and bringing down wages for someone laying drywall.

I suppose if I were an aspiring CEO or NBA player I might view it differently.

I've long said that there's a balance to strike. Our corporations need labor and our citizens need jobs that at least pay a living wage. Both sides should get consideration but to do that we (and every other country) needs the ability to set and enforce its immigration and labor policies.

I have absolutely nothing against the illegal immigrants. For the most part they come here to make life better for themselves and their families. They are very hard working and contribute tremendously. That being said, setting and enforcing an immigration policy is a right and responsibility of every country and it should not be construed as a personal attack on illegal immigrants.

[yermom]

so you are fine with immigrants making millions of dollars while talented former college players are selling insurance or something, but someone making whatever an immigration lawyer does is out of bounds?

[Turd_Ferguson]

I ain't never seen't nobody "lay drywall"...sounds tricky.

[Chuck Bao]

About 15 years ago, I hired an old man and his small horse with wagon for a day to take me around the ancient ruins of Pagan in modern day Burma. He said that he was a former university history professor and that he had ran afoul of the military running the country and lost his position. He said that his dream was to immigrate to the US and do yard landscaping work in Michigan. That is just so pitiful on so many levels.

[Turd_Ferguson]

About 15 years ago, I hired an old man and his small horse with wagon for a day to take me around the ancient ruins of Pagan in modern day Burma. He said that he was a former university history professor and that he had ran afoul of the military running the country and lost his position. He said that his dream was to immigrate to the US and do yard landscaping work in Michigan. That is just so pitiful on so many levels.No kidding! Michigan?! Ewww...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Chuck, not to hi-jack your thoughtful story, but why in the hell Michigan??? California, Arizona and Florida would seem to be more of a gardeners paradise...

[jkjsooner]

so you are fine with immigrants making millions of dollars while talented former college players are selling insurance or something, but someone making whatever an immigration lawyer does is out of bounds?

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

I'm not concerned about a CEO who lost his job to a foreigner. I'm not concerned about a college player who had to go play basketball in Europe. When you're looking at making tens of millions of dollars your argument about foreigners taking your job is weak.

We're not talking about flooding the labor pool to lower wages. That is not why the NBA gets elite European players. It's not why Hollywood uses an English leading man. It's not why the board of directors hires a German as CEO.

[pphilfran]

When I worked in Napanee, Canada I had a hell of time getting a work visa from Canada...

I needed a special expertise that no, or few, Canadians had...good on that...

The problem was I didn't have a degree...Goodyear had to pull strings or use payola to get me in...

On one of my visits back to the US the US customs dudes spotted my Cubans and confiscated them...bet the bastards smoked em....

[Chuck Bao]

Chuck, not to hi-jack your thoughtful story, but why in the hell Michigan??? California, Arizona and Florida would seem to be more of a gardeners paradise...

I didn't ask why Michigan. Asking too many personal questions is something that you had to be very careful about in Burma, probably still is. I just supposed that he had family or friends in Michigan. Or, maybe he gave a tour to a rich American from Michigan who was as much impressed by his knowledge of history and high standard of English as I was and offered to support him through a work visa. Again, I'm appalled. It seems that a US university with a Southeast Asia studies department should have been the one sponsoring him.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

I'm not concerned about a CEO who lost his job to a foreigner. I'm not concerned about a college player who had to go play basketball in Europe. When you're looking at making tens of millions of dollars your argument about foreigners taking your job is weak.

We're not talking about flooding the labor pool to lower wages. That is not why the NBA gets elite European players. It's not why Hollywood uses an English leading man. It's not why the board of directors hires a German as CEO.

Jkj,

I had the worst nightmare last night. A foreign country flooded the U.S. markets with $3/barrel oil that was higher quality oil than the $100/barrel oil here in the U.S. All the folks selling the
$100/barrel oil lost their jobs so we the U.S. fell into a Great Depression! It was horrrrible!!!

But fortunately a very pleasant dream followed. A biological warfare accident killed all the workers in my city - except me. So I could take any vacated job I wanted! And being the only worker in town I could name my salary!



But seriously, jkj, you've been brainwashed by the communists that government is the solution to all things economic. Let government make decisions instead of the marketplace and we be ****ed. It is flawed thinking that a freer movement of labor causes more job loss than job gain. It is just the opposite. A free movement of labor could double economic activity and thereby create many many more jobs.

[jkjsooner]

Jkj,

I had the worst nightmare last night. A foreign country flooded the U.S. markets with $3/barrel oil that was higher quality oil than the $100/barrel oil here in the U.S. All the folks selling the
$100/barrel oil lost their jobs so we the U.S. fell into a Great Depression! It was horrrrible!!!

But fortunately a very pleasant dream followed. A biological warfare accident killed all the workers in my city - except me. So I could take any vacated job I wanted! And being the only worker in town I could name my salary!



But seriously, jkj, you've been brainwashed by the communists that government is the solution to all things economic. Let government make decisions instead of the marketplace and we be ****ed. It is flawed thinking that a freer movement of labor causes more job loss than job gain. It is just the opposite. A free movement of labor could double economic activity and thereby create many many more jobs.

Arguing that a sovereign country has the right to set and enforce its immigration laws is a communist idea? I think you just called a bunch of conservatives on this board communists.

As far as the meat of your argument, I don't buy it. It sounds like the same B.S. spewed by the guys in Chicago - you know the same ones who thought that regulation of derivates (or even fraud) was unnecessary. If we truly had free labor that may result in a net benefit world wide but I think it's absurd to think that we wouldn't be brought down to their level.

Frankly, since you mentioned goods in addition to labor, I'm not so sure that the verdict has been decided on ultra-globalization. Clearly many American's jobs have been displaced. I'm not so sure how much of the benefits we think we've seen are truly sustainable or have we simply masked the trouble with debt (trade deficits, etc.)

It's kind of like the idea that increasing government spending and cutting taxes is great for the economy. Sure, it is for a while just like living on a credit card can make you feel great for a while. We've been living on the globalization credit card for a while.

[jkjsooner]

I want to expand on my previous post. I'm not denying that free movement of goods and labor wouldn't be an improvement when looking at the entire worldwide economy. I'm denying that it would necessarily be an improvement to the US economy.

The funny thing is that I seem to be getting hammered from both sides here.

I've said that we do have a need for labor and that our immigration policy should reflect that. I've also been critical of those who view undocumented workers as anything other hard working people just trying to make life better for themselves and their families. I've also expressed support for the guy in the OP because of his individual circumstances and supported amnesty so long as we increase punishment for those who hire undocumented workers.

I've also expressed the opinion that every country has a right to set and enforce its immigration policy and that every country has an obligation to the welfare of its citizens first and any immigration policy should take this into consideration.

Apparently having a nuanced opinion that has elements of both sides of the political spectrum simply results in getting blasted from both sides. Oh well, it is what I believe.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Arguing that a sovereign country has the right to set and enforce its immigration laws is a communist idea? I think you just called a bunch of conservatives on this board communists.

Now jkj, I never said any such thing. Of course sovereign countries have rights to do stupid things. If North Korea wants only North Korean professors in their universities they have that right. Thank goodness that U.S. universities can hire the best in the world, even if it leaves some second rate OSU ph.d. without a university job. And consequently, we have the best universities in the world. Any list of top 100 universities in the world would have half or more from the U.S.

In fact, I never mentioned immigration in the post. Worker visas are commonly non-immigrant visas. In the university example, if they really like the foreigner and want to give him/her tenure, then they can sponsor the person for a green card.

The only economic reason to be against free movement of labor is if you are interested in protecting the welfare state. Free markets > welfare state.