Free Stuff

[MamaMia]

Best explanation of what is happening in America that I have heard.

CAN THE USA SURVIVE GIVEN THE FOLLOWING?

The folks who are getting free stuff, don't like the folks who are paying for the free stuff, because the folks who are paying for the free stuff can no longer afford to pay for both the free stuff and their own stuff.

The folks who are paying for the free stuff want the free stuff to stop, and the folks who are getting the free stuff want even more free stuff on top of the free stuff they are already getting!

Now... The people who are forcing the people to pay for the free stuff have told the people who are RECEIVING the free stuff, that the people who are PAYING for the free stuff, are being mean, prejudiced, and racist.

So... The people who are GETTING the free stuff have been convinced they need to hate the people who are paying for the free stuff by the people who are forcing some people to pay for their free stuff, and giving them the free stuff in the first place.

We have let the free stuff giving go on for so long that there are now more people getting free stuff than paying for the free stuff.

Now understand this. All great democracies have committed financial suicide somewhere between 200 and 250 years after being founded. The reason?The voters figured out they could vote themselves money from the treasury by electing people who promised to give them money from the treasury in exchange for electing them.
Thomas Jefferson said it best: "The democracy (Republic) will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

The United States officially became a Republic in 1776, 235 years ago. The number of people now getting free stuff outnumbers the people paying for the free stuff. We have one chance to change that On Nov 6th, 2012. Failure to change that spells the end of the United States as we know it.

ELECTION 2012 IS COMING
"A Nation of Sheep Breeds a Government of Wolves"

What is needed?

Obama:Gone
Borders: Closed
Language: English only
Culture: Constitution, and the Bill of Rights
Drug Free: Mandatory Drug Screening before Welfare
NO freebies to: Non-Citizens

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Language: English only
Culture: Constitution

What fear do people have of non English speakers? 98% of the nation speaks English anyways, and besides, there's no Constitutional provision for "x language only".

[Turd_Ferguson]

And here come the libs with sand in there vaginas in 3...2...



Edit: Dammit...Late again.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

And here come the libs with sand in there vaginas in 3...2...



Edit: Dammit...Late again.
Can you answer my question? Also, I find it ironic that "libs have sand in there vaginas" but the entire op is well...a lot of sand in the vagina about how bad life is under Obama.

[Midtowner]

The people getting the free stuff? Hell with them. Try the middle class who pays a larger portion of their income in taxes and gets no free stuff while those at the top of the food chain pay much lower taxes.

We could quickly eliminate unemployment by offering folks two choices: work or starve. I'd be willing to take their kids into state custody, so that's good too.

But those at the top? Screw 'em. They've manipulated the system to where their incomes have increased hugely over the last couple decades while the middle class has stagnated. Taxes need to go up and entitlements need to go down. There's no other way to preserve the Republic.

[Midtowner]

Can you answer my question? Also, I find it ironic that "libs have sand in there vaginas" but the entire op is well...a lot of sand in the vagina about how bad life is under Obama.

Especially when none of the tax hikes he's bitching about actually happened. Talk about butthurt over nothing.

[yermom]

here is some interesting reading on this subject:

http://www.cagle.com/2012/04/five-reasons-why-the-very-rich-have-not-earned-their-money/

another:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-16/u-s-minimum-wage-lower-than-in-lbj-era-needs-a-raise.html

CEOs make more and more money, the people actually working make less than they did in compared to cost of living when minimum wage was established

i don't know many rational people that want more "free stuff"

less corporate greed and corporate control of the government would be nice

[8timechamps]

The people getting the free stuff? Hell with them. Try the middle class who pays a larger portion of their income in taxes and gets no free stuff while those at the top of the food chain pay much lower taxes.

We could quickly eliminate unemployment by offering folks two choices: work or starve. I'd be willing to take their kids into state custody, so that's good too.

But those at the top? Screw 'em. They've manipulated the system to where their incomes have increased hugely over the last couple decades while the middle class has stagnated. Taxes need to go up and entitlements need to go down. There's no other way to preserve the Republic.

What's ironic is that your attitude of the people getting the free stuff is the same attitude the people at the top have about the middle-class.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Especially when none of the tax hikes he's bitching about actually happened. Talk about butthurt over nothing.A liberal muslim homosexual ACLU lawyer professor and abortion doctor was teaching a class on Karl Marx, known atheist

”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Marx and accept that he was the most highly-evolved being the world has ever known, even greater than Jesus Christ!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, pro-life Navy SEAL champion who had served 1500 tours of duty and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all military decision made by the United States stood up and held up a rock.

”How old is this rock, pinhead?”

The arrogant professor smirked quite Jewishly and smugly replied “4.6 billion years, you stupid Christian”

”Wrong. It’s been 5,000 years since God created it. If it was 4.6 billion years old and evolution, as you say, is real… then it should be an animal now”

The professor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of Origin of the Species. He stormed out of the room crying those liberal crocodile tears. The same tears liberals cry for the “poor” (who today live in such luxury that most own refrigerators) when they jealously try to claw justly earned wealth from the deserving job creators. There is no doubt that at this point our professor, DeShawn Washington, wished he had pulled himself up by his bootstraps and become more than a sophist liberal professor. He wished so much that he had a gun to shoot himself from embarrassment, but he himself had petitioned against them!

The students applauded and all registered Republican that day and accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. An eagle named “Small Government” flew into the room and perched atop the American Flag and shed a tear on the chalk. The pledge of allegiance was read several times, and God himself showed up and enacted a flat tax rate across the country.

The professor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. Two weeks later he died of the gay plague AIDS and was tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

Semper Fi.
p.s. close the borders

[Turd_Ferguson]

A liberal muslim homosexual ACLU lawyer professor and abortion doctor was teaching a class on Karl Marx, known atheist

”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Marx and accept that he was the most highly-evolved being the world has ever known, even greater than Jesus Christ!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, pro-life Navy SEAL champion who had served 1500 tours of duty and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all military decision made by the United States stood up and held up a rock.

”How old is this rock, pinhead?”

The arrogant professor smirked quite Jewishly and smugly replied “4.6 billion years, you stupid Christian”

”Wrong. It’s been 5,000 years since God created it. If it was 4.6 billion years old and evolution, as you say, is real… then it should be an animal now”

The professor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of Origin of the Species. He stormed out of the room crying those liberal crocodile tears. The same tears liberals cry for the “poor” (who today live in such luxury that most own refrigerators) when they jealously try to claw justly earned wealth from the deserving job creators. There is no doubt that at this point our professor, DeShawn Washington, wished he had pulled himself up by his bootstraps and become more than a sophist liberal professor. He wished so much that he had a gun to shoot himself from embarrassment, but he himself had petitioned against them!

The students applauded and all registered Republican that day and accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. An eagle named “Small Government” flew into the room and perched atop the American Flag and shed a tear on the chalk. The pledge of allegiance was read several times, and God himself showed up and enacted a flat tax rate across the country.

The professor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. Two weeks later he died of the gay plague AIDS and was tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

Semper Fi.
p.s. close the border****'n the crack a little early today eh?

[olevetonahill]

Hit'n the crack a little early today eh?

Think him an ST been spending em some Quality time together

[MamaMia]

A liberal muslim homosexual ACLU lawyer professor and abortion doctor was teaching a class on Karl Marx, known atheist

”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Marx and accept that he was the most highly-evolved being the world has ever known, even greater than Jesus Christ!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, pro-life Navy SEAL champion who had served 1500 tours of duty and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all military decision made by the United States stood up and held up a rock.

”How old is this rock, pinhead?”

The arrogant professor smirked quite Jewishly and smugly replied “4.6 billion years, you stupid Christian”

”Wrong. It’s been 5,000 years since God created it. If it was 4.6 billion years old and evolution, as you say, is real… then it should be an animal now”

The professor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of Origin of the Species. He stormed out of the room crying those liberal crocodile tears. The same tears liberals cry for the “poor” (who today live in such luxury that most own refrigerators) when they jealously try to claw justly earned wealth from the deserving job creators. There is no doubt that at this point our professor, DeShawn Washington, wished he had pulled himself up by his bootstraps and become more than a sophist liberal professor. He wished so much that he had a gun to shoot himself from embarrassment, but he himself had petitioned against them!

The students applauded and all registered Republican that day and accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. An eagle named “Small Government” flew into the room and perched atop the American Flag and shed a tear on the chalk. The pledge of allegiance was read several times, and God himself showed up and enacted a flat tax rate across the country.

The professor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. Two weeks later he died of the gay plague AIDS and was tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

Semper Fi.
p.s. close the borders Crib notes please?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Borders: Closed

There are 325 ports of entry into the U.S., with 1 million people passing through these ports each and every day. No one is closing the borders.

[okie52]

What fear do people have of non English speakers? 98% of the nation speaks English anyways, and besides, there's no Constitutional provision for "x language only".

That's easy enough to do...it's called an amendment. No more schools or federal or state agencies being required to print bilingual literature or teachers to teach in espanol.

Some looneys feel like its our duty to teach illegals in their native tongue...can you imagine anyone being that stupid?

[okie52]

There are 325 ports of entry into the U.S., with 1 million people passing through these ports each and every day. No one is closing the borders.

It can be easily done by just training and hiring enough people to cover the ports....other countries already do it. Of course there are some that just prefer open borders and very limited immigration checks so they can get their family here from ****hole countries...not really very good for this country because these illegals are often poorly educated, non English speaking with a poor future earning capacity that will be a perpetual drain on the US infrastructure.

[Midtowner]

A liberal muslim homosexual ACLU lawyer professor and abortion doctor was teaching a class on Karl Marx, known atheist

”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Marx and accept that he was the most highly-evolved being the world has ever known, even greater than Jesus Christ!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, pro-life Navy SEAL champion who had served 1500 tours of duty and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all military decision made by the United States stood up and held up a rock.

”How old is this rock, pinhead?”

The arrogant professor smirked quite Jewishly and smugly replied “4.6 billion years, you stupid Christian”

”Wrong. It’s been 5,000 years since God created it. If it was 4.6 billion years old and evolution, as you say, is real… then it should be an animal now”

The professor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of Origin of the Species. He stormed out of the room crying those liberal crocodile tears. The same tears liberals cry for the “poor” (who today live in such luxury that most own refrigerators) when they jealously try to claw justly earned wealth from the deserving job creators. There is no doubt that at this point our professor, DeShawn Washington, wished he had pulled himself up by his bootstraps and become more than a sophist liberal professor. He wished so much that he had a gun to shoot himself from embarrassment, but he himself had petitioned against them!

The students applauded and all registered Republican that day and accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. An eagle named “Small Government” flew into the room and perched atop the American Flag and shed a tear on the chalk. The pledge of allegiance was read several times, and God himself showed up and enacted a flat tax rate across the country.

The professor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. Two weeks later he died of the gay plague AIDS and was tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

Semper Fi.
p.s. close the borders

Glenn Beck's wettest dream here.

Genius.

My only regret is that I can only give you one spek for this.

[Midtowner]

What's ironic is that your attitude of the people getting the free stuff is the same attitude the people at the top have about the middle-class.

We live in a country where the ruling class' income has dramatically increased over the last couple decades all while the middle class' income has stagnated while the middle class has worked harder and harder. One of the functions of government is to regulate the exploitation of the masses for the common good. Not to protect corporate profits and ensure the ruling class get ridiculous returns on their investment without having to give back to the society which made it all possible.

The useful idiots on this board amaze me.

VERY NSFW:

2c3_V3vMeIc

[Curly Bill]

Glenn Beck's wettest dream here.

Genius.

My only regret is that I can only give you one spek for this.

Betcha I took away more than you gave him.

[olevetonahill]

Betcha I took away more than you gave him.

Heh
There are times I miss running that Bolivian Travel agency :unconscious:

[OULenexaman]

Hit'n the crack a little early today eh? SCS=Sure Crack Smoker

[cleller]

Heck, Midtowner-
You crack loose a great post about work or starve, then put up a vid with Bill Maher. You're getting bi-polar. :biggrin:

(of course, I could not watch the Maher, thing, maybe it was off his beaten path)

[pphilfran]

We live in a country where the ruling class' income has dramatically increased over the last couple decades all while the middle class' income has stagnated while the middle class has worked harder and harder. One of the functions of government is to regulate the exploitation of the masses for the common good. Not to protect corporate profits and ensure the ruling class get ridiculous returns on their investment without having to give back to the society which made it all possible.

The useful idiots on this board amaze me.

VERY NSFW:



Pretty accurate...

The rich have mode out like bandits...the poor have taken it in the shorts (some being self inflicted)...while the middle class has tread water or made slight gains...though the number in the middle class has grown significantly...

I don't know the answer but I do know that Obama's plan to add even more pages to the tax code is the opposite direction that needs to be taken...

[Midtowner]

Heck, Midtowner-
You crack loose a great post about work or starve, then put up a vid with Bill Maher. You're getting bi-polar. :biggrin:

(of course, I could not watch the Maher, thing, maybe it was off his beaten path)

I feel about the same with regards to the lazy poor as I do the greedy and pampered elite. If this country is going to survive, this whole notion of the elites living off the bounty of their wage slaves and the poor living off the fruits of the system in general isn't going to work. We are going to have to have SOME social services, particularly for the poor, the elderly who have worked and the disabled. The rest of that system needs DEEP cuts.

At the other end of the spectrum, the wealthy in this society are coddled. They are allowed to set up, for example, massive derivitives schemes which tank the entire stock market, the portfolios and retirement accounts of the middle class, etc., but the banks themselves are deemed too big to fail and then bailed out by the taxpayers only to invest their free money overseas. Screw 'em. I want the taxes on the ultrawealthy to go up. Way up. Partly out of my sense of moral indignation at what they've done to the rest of us and partly because as a country which is borrowing 40 cents on the dollar spent at the federal level, while cuts in services will help, someone is going to have to pay more taxes also. We spend enough on defense and have a stable enough government that I'd defy you to find a more stable country in the world to park significant assets.

[Midtowner]

I don't know the answer but I do know that Obama's plan to add even more pages to the tax code is the opposite direction that needs to be taken...

I'm fine with that. Those pages won't apply to me. They'll apply to the ultrawealthy who are already employing hordes of accountants to minimize their tax liability. If anything, the added cost of compliance will create jobs in the private marketplace. Aren't we all in favor of creating jobs?

ETA: You do know that most of those pages are not in the Tax Code, but in the regulations and opinions which have come into being because of creative, sometimes shady practices by aforementioned hordes of tax accountants, right?

[pphilfran]

A little personal tidbit...

My Dad is in the VA nursing home in Lawton...$3000 grand a month (locals were charging right at $4000 prior to our moving him)...

He currently has assets over 80k...once he gets below 80k he will get an addition couple of hundred knocked off the $3000..

So far everything is good...

Last month they come up to me and say I don't have any disabilities listed for Dad...they tell me everybody that has ever served in the military has some kind of disability...

I tell them that he never had any military related problems...he was in pilot training for the B29 when the war ended and never went overseas...

Pilot! That is good for at least a 10% disability...at least! hearing loss they claim...

But Dad never had any hearing related problems...

Don't matter, we will test him...

But he is 88....

Dad is now receiving $200 additional a month...

I love our government...

[pphilfran]

I'm fine with that. Those pages won't apply to me. They'll apply to the ultrawealthy who are already employing hordes of accountants to minimize their tax liability. If anything, the added cost of compliance will create jobs in the private marketplace. Aren't we all in favor of creating jobs?

Not that type of job...

One of my goals would be to bankrupt H&R Block...

[Midtowner]

Not that type of job...

One of my goals would be to bankrupt H&R Block...

I recently gave my CPA the boot and did my taxes this year on TaxAct. I have a much better than average knowledge about taxes, deductions, etc., could probably figure most folks' tax liability with a tax statute book and a few sheets of paper, so it's a no brainer for me.

But H&R does a valuable service. They cost much less than CPAs do and they tend to do a fair job of things since the process is automated. For most folks, despite what is said, taxes are not very complicated.

[pphilfran]

I recently gave my CPA the boot and did my taxes this year on TaxAct. I have a much better than average knowledge about taxes, deductions, etc., could probably figure most folks' tax liability with a tax statute book and a few sheets of paper, so it's a no brainer for me.

But H&R does a valuable service. They cost much less than CPAs do and they tend to do a fair job of things since the process is automated. For most folks, despite what is said, taxes are not very complicated.

It is not too difficult...I also do my own

But there is something wrong when a multibillion dollar cottage industry popped up to help a large part of the population do their taxes...

I would annihilate the current code...

[pphilfran]

I do not consider H&R Block a value added company...

[Curly Bill]

It is not too difficult...I also do my own

But there is something wrong when a multibillion dollar cottage industry popped up to help a large part of the population do their taxes...

I would annihilate the current code...

Totally in agreement!!!

[Turd_Ferguson]

You can bet there is lots of money in the pockets of lobbyist against tax reform...

[Midtowner]

It is not too difficult...I also do my own

But there is something wrong when a multibillion dollar cottage industry popped up to help a large part of the population do their taxes...

I would annihilate the current code...

I don't care how simple our tax code is. A large part of our population cannot add or subtract or understand concepts like gross income vs. net income. H&R Block is here to stay. There are just too many dummies out there. I really did like using TaxAct though. It does the arithmetic and saves the info I entered for next year so that I'll have a much quicker go of it. I'm now paying peanuts for what I used to pay my CPA $600 or so per year to do.

[pphilfran]

I don't care how simple our tax code is. A large part of our population cannot add or subtract or understand concepts like gross income vs. net income. H&R Block is here to stay. There are just too many dummies out there. I really did like using TaxAct though. It does the arithmetic and saves the info I entered for next year so that I'll have a much quicker go of it. I'm now paying peanuts for what I used to pay my CPA $600 or so per year to do.

I have used Turbo Tax for over a decade...being a long term user put me on the list for the first paperless return trial...that was probably around 1998...

You need to think outside the box..a consumption tax (has flaws) would not require Joe Belowaverage to file a return...so Joe wouldn't need to add...

In Tyler I was setting up a SPC quality program..simple chit...three readings (variation from spec), add em up, average and then plot...I did all the control limits and "heavy" calculations...gave em calculators and they broke or lost em so.... I put every possible answer combination at the bottom of the sheet...it worked...

But when it came to pay...they could spot a 2 cent shortage within seconds....

[cleller]

A little personal tidbit...

My Dad is in the VA nursing home in Lawton...$3000 grand a month (locals were charging right at $4000 prior to our moving him)...

He currently has assets over 80k...once he gets below 80k he will get an addition couple of hundred knocked off the $3000..

So far everything is good...

Last month they come up to me and say I don't have any disabilities listed for Dad...they tell me everybody that has ever served in the military has some kind of disability...

I tell them that he never had any military related problems...he was in pilot training for the B29 when the war ended and never went overseas...

Pilot! That is good for at least a 10% disability...at least! hearing loss they claim...

But Dad never had any hearing related problems...

Don't matter, we will test him...

But he is 88....

Dad is now receiving $200 additional a month...

I love our government...

My mom is in the same situation, at the $4000/month level. Believe me, we've worked and helped with her for 10 years to keep her out of a nursing home, but now there is no alternative.

Because she lived a frugal life, never had a single luxury, and saved all her life -she has had the funds available to pay for this. We are barely able to pay the monthly tab with her income and assets.

Its a little disconcerting when you know that nearly everyone else there is a Medicaid patient. Hopefully, we will not have to go that route, it just doesn't seem right.

[LiveLaughLove]

A few things.

1. The reason for english only (and I'm not saying I agree totally, but to some extent) is melding in to the society vs staying multi-cultural. Most citizens that came here from other countries over time learned our language to adapt to their new country. Hispanics these days are not even attempting to do so. This is causing them to remain basically as citizens of a different country just living here.

2. The rich today are far richer than in the past? Really? So Getty, Ford, Rockefeller, the railroad barons, the cattle barons of old, those folks weren't hugely rich compared to their middle and lower class contemporaries? I don't think there is much difference, though I don't know the exact numbers. What is new is this loathing of the rich. We used to respect and wish to emulate the rich. Now we just want to bring them down to our level. If they are rich they must be crooked. Poppycock.

I don't want the rich to cheat or do illegal things, but could be that rich people (congress) made the tax code so extremely complicated for the very reason of being able to game the system? Make the tax code one page, you eliminate this.

3. I would wager that the poor income has gone up in proportion or more than any groups income. Our poor are the richest poor in the world. They have cell phones, internet, xbox's, nike tennis shoes, plenty of baggy pants, and on and on. Do they want more? Sure. Do they want to do less to get it? Absolutely.

This is the Democrat power base. This is the reason this problem will never go away.

[LiveLaughLove]

here is some interesting reading on this subject:

http://www.cagle.com/2012/04/five-reasons-why-the-very-rich-have-not-earned-their-money/

another:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-16/u-s-minimum-wage-lower-than-in-lbj-era-needs-a-raise.html

CEOs make more and more money, the people actually working make less than they did in compared to cost of living when minimum wage was established

i don't know many rational people that want more "free stuff"

less corporate greed and corporate control of the government would be nice

On the Bloomberg link, raising the minimum wage does nothing, NOTHING. It is pandering plain and simple. When an expense of any kind occurs to a business there will be two reactions. Employees will lose their jobs (cut backs) to trim costs, and prices of goods and services will be raised (inflation). Business owners will use a minimum wage increase to raise prices (and usually even higher than the employee costs). Then the minimum wage increase will not buy any more goods or services for that employee than it did in the first place.

Minimum wage is for entry level jobs, it was never meant to earn your career living from. It's for my kids that live at home. It's not for my adult kids that are out on their own. If they were still earning minimum wage I'd slap 'em up side the head. My 18 year old makes $11 an hour and it took her all of 30 minutes to find that job.

Now, "the people that actually work". CEO's don't actually work? Rich people don't work... actually? This is such class warfare bunk that it stagger's me that someone can actually type this out and not stop and hit the backspace key and never send it in the first place. CEO's aren't born CEO's. We have the most self made millionaires/billionaires in the world. They work VERY stinking hard to get there. Every one of 'em? No, I'm sure you can find some anecdotal cases of people that inherited their CEO status, but not many. It's an absurd statement to say they don't work, actually.

Most people in welfare lines are completely rational, and are completely for as many freebies as they can get. They won't turn it down.

It's always corporate greed. What about actors greed? or professional athletes greed? They make far more than just about anybody on the planet, and are always wanting more on the backs of the middle class and poor (the movie go-ers and ticket purchasers). Actors "actually work" far less hours than a normal person for those millions per film.

[yermom]

the actor or athlete that makes millions of dollars isn't cutting jobs, wages or benefits of other people to make more money

kudos for actually clicking on that link, but i'm not sure you really read or understood it ;)

[Bourbon St Sooner]

But H&R does a valuable service. They cost much less than CPAs do and they tend to do a fair job of things since the process is automated. For most folks, despite what is said, taxes are not very complicated.

Seriously? After they do your taxes real cheap (almost always simple returns mind you) they rip you off with their payday loans. They know people getting the Earned Income credit won't mind paying extra to get their money now, so they charge ridiculous fees and interest on what amounts to a secured short term loan. That company's a ****in scam. They prey off the same people that the banks did with those sub-prime loans. And it all government sanctioned.

[Midtowner]

Seriously? After they do your taxes real cheap (almost always simple returns mind you) they rip you off with their payday loans. They know people getting the Earned Income credit won't mind paying extra to get their money now, so they charge ridiculous fees and interest on what amounts to a secured short term loan. That company's a ****in scam. They prey off the same people that the banks did with those sub-prime loans. And it all government sanctioned.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

[pphilfran]

A few things.

1. The reason for english only (and I'm not saying I agree totally, but to some extent) is melding in to the society vs staying multi-cultural. Most citizens that came here from other countries over time learned our language to adapt to their new country. Hispanics these days are not even attempting to do so. This is causing them to remain basically as citizens of a different country just living here.

2. The rich today are far richer than in the past? Really? So Getty, Ford, Rockefeller, the railroad barons, the cattle barons of old, those folks weren't hugely rich compared to their middle and lower class contemporaries? I don't think there is much difference, though I don't know the exact numbers. What is new is this loathing of the rich. We used to respect and wish to emulate the rich. Now we just want to bring them down to our level. If they are rich they must be crooked. Poppycock.

I don't want the rich to cheat or do illegal things, but could be that rich people (congress) made the tax code so extremely complicated for the very reason of being able to game the system? Make the tax code one page, you eliminate this.

3. I would wager that the poor income has gone up in proportion or more than any groups income. Our poor are the richest poor in the world. They have cell phones, internet, xbox's, nike tennis shoes, plenty of baggy pants, and on and on. Do they want more? Sure. Do they want to do less to get it? Absolutely.

This is the Democrat power base. This is the reason this problem will never go away.

This data is from the IRS...AGI income...I pulled it together a couple of years ago....1993-2007 (I think there is data out for 2008 at the current time)

Those making under 20k a year saw their income drop...12% less returns for the wage group but the total pay decreased 23%

20k - 50k...this group grew by 16% and total wages grew 18%

50k - 200k...this group grew by 128% and total wages grew by 165% (about matched inflation)

200k m- 1 mill...grew by 347% and total wages grew by 349%

1 mill and over...490% more returns with total pay up by 721%...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/agichange.jpg

[Midtowner]

The rich getting richer while the poor are getting poorer.

--in ancient to modern history, that has always been a recipe for disaster.

[MamaMia]

We own a small business and we've been incorporated since 2000. They say that the IRS and state audits are done randomly but I don't believe that. I think hey target small businesses. We were audited 5 times in a 7 year period from 1998 to 2005 and were never found to be cheating. For safeties sake, not only do we not do our own taxes anymore, but since then we felt we had no choice but to hire a tax attorney keep track of everything. Every quarter. just getting all the information together that she needs is a huge headache.

[pphilfran]

Let's see who got hit during the recession...comparing 2007-2009

1. 2.5 million less returns filed
2. Over half of those lost returns came in the 1 -$5000 range
3. Only "growth" in number or returns came in the 5-25000 group and the 100k-200k group
4. Those making over 500k got creamed
- Number of returns dropped by 1/3
- Total AGI dropped by about 40%

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html


http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/agi2007-2009.jpg

[diverdog]

Let's see who got hit during the recession...comparing 2007-2009

1. 2.5 million less returns filed
2. Over half of those lost returns came in the 1 -$5000 range
3. Only "growth" in number or returns came in the 5-25000 group and the 100k-200k group
4. Those making over 500k got creamed
- Number of returns dropped by 1/3
- Total AGI dropped by about 40%

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html


http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/agi2007-2009.jpg

That would be realtors and developers. I know tons of them that got "creamed".

[okie52]

That would be realtors and developers. I know tons of them that got "creamed".

I've got a few developer friends in Edmond that have been killing it.

[8timechamps]

We live in a country where the ruling class' income has dramatically increased over the last couple decades all while the middle class' income has stagnated while the middle class has worked harder and harder. One of the functions of government is to regulate the exploitation of the masses for the common good. Not to protect corporate profits and ensure the ruling class get ridiculous returns on their investment without having to give back to the society which made it all possible.

The useful idiots on this board amaze me.

VERY NSFW:

2c3_V3vMeIc

useful idiot?

It was an observation, not a political stance. (you sure read a lot into a few words.). And if you really think about it, it's the truth. Which, in my opinion, is part of the problem.

Since you seem well aware of the problem, what is the solution? Our current structure promotes the poor staying poor, and the rich keeping their wealth. This problem didn't pop up overnight, and it's not going away quickly.

[8timechamps]

A little personal tidbit...

My Dad is in the VA nursing home in Lawton...$3000 grand a month (locals were charging right at $4000 prior to our moving him)...

He currently has assets over 80k...once he gets below 80k he will get an addition couple of hundred knocked off the $3000..

So far everything is good...

Last month they come up to me and say I don't have any disabilities listed for Dad...they tell me everybody that has ever served in the military has some kind of disability...

I tell them that he never had any military related problems...he was in pilot training for the B29 when the war ended and never went overseas...

Pilot! That is good for at least a 10% disability...at least! hearing loss they claim...

But Dad never had any hearing related problems...

Don't matter, we will test him...

But he is 88....

Dad is now receiving $200 additional a month...

I love our government...

This is the kind of **** that has us where we are today. Unfortunately, your story isn't that rare.

Also, I'm a veteran, I need to figure out what disability I have. Can you send me a phone number for this place? :)

[okie52]

useful idiot?

It was an observation, not a political stance. (you sure read a lot into a few words.). And if you really think about it, it's the truth. Which, in my opinion, is part of the problem.

Since you seem well aware of the problem, what is the solution? Our current structure promotes the poor staying poor, and the rich keeping their wealth. This problem didn't pop up overnight, and it's not going away quickly.

Hey, he was coming around on illegals....maybe in time he won't hate all of us rich people.

[8timechamps]

Hey, he was coming around on illegals....maybe in time he won't hate all of us rich people.

So, I shouldn't tell him about my illegal maid and gardener?

[MamaMia]

If it were not for the highly successful rich people, who pay a higher percentage in taxes than us middle class people do, none of us would have jobs, or people to pay us for whatever service we provide. I'm all for everyone paying the same percentage of taxes on their gross income and forcing the politicians to spend less.

[Curly Bill]

If it were not for the highly successful rich people, who pay a higher percentage in taxes than us middle class people do, none of us would have jobs, or people to pay us for whatever service we provide. I'm all for everyone paying the same percentage of taxes on their gross income and forcing the politicians to spend less.

This ^^^^

[diverdog]

This is the kind of **** that has us where we are today. Unfortunately, your story isn't that rare.

Also, I'm a veteran, I need to figure out what disability I have. Can you send me a phone number for this place? :)

Champs pm me and I will to help you with your claim. I am a DAV and I can point you in the right direction if you have a claim.

I am still fighting on getting mine bumped after my second surgery.

[diverdog]

O
A little personal tidbit...

My Dad is in the VA nursing home in Lawton...$3000 grand a month (locals were charging right at $4000 prior to our moving him)...

He currently has assets over 80k...once he gets below 80k he will get an addition couple of hundred knocked off the $3000..

So far everything is good...

Last month they come up to me and say I don't have any disabilities listed for Dad...they tell me everybody that has ever served in the military has some kind of disability...

I tell them that he never had any military related problems...he was in pilot training for the B29 when the war ended and never went overseas...

Pilot! That is good for at least a 10% disability...at least! hearing loss they claim...

But Dad never had any hearing related problems...

Don't matter, we will test him...

But he is 88....

Dad is now receiving $200 additional a month...

I love our government...

To be perfectly honest with you your dad probably did suffer some hearing loss. My dad was a military pilot and his hearing is bad. They did not wear hearing protection back then and those engines are loud.

[MamaMia]

People are so sick and tired of all the high taxes that record numbers are denouncing their American citizenship.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

That would be realtors and developers. I know tons of them that got "creamed".

Probably the biggest factor at the upper end is the stock market. 08 & 09 weren't good years for capital gains. That probably ramped up again in 10 - 11.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

We own a small business and we've been incorporated since 2000. They say that the IRS and state audits are done randomly but I don't believe that. I think hey target small businesses. We were audited 5 times in a 7 year period from 1998 to 2005 and were never found to be cheating. For safeties sake, not only do we not do our own taxes anymore, but since then we felt we had no choice but to hire a tax attorney keep track of everything. Every quarter. just getting all the information together that she needs is a huge headache.

I would say self-employed folks are mostly the ones getting audited. For those of us getting a paycheck the gov't already gets W2 filings, mortgage interest filings, interest from banks, capital gains and dividends. So they can pretty much verify the return with the info they already have. That's not the same for self-employed folks.

[Midtowner]

Since you seem well aware of the problem, what is the solution? Our current structure promotes the poor staying poor, and the rich keeping their wealth. This problem didn't pop up overnight, and it's not going away quickly.

There are lots of solutions. First, we have to limit the amount of government money an able-bodied/able-minded individual can receive in their lifetime. If you're on and off of welfare in order to work the system, after 36 months (lifetime), you should receive ZERO state aid. Starvation can be a terrific motivator. I'll bet if we cut folks off of welfare, there'll be a lot less work which Americans will no longer do.

Gotta make sure those jobs are available by getting rid of all the illegal aliens.

Finally, impose a more fair rate on the very wealthy. Reinstate the estate tax at amounts exceeding $1MM instead of $5MM, etc. The tax code needs to be written to produce the income we need for the government we want. Not to protect the accumulation of assets by our ruling class. We need more tax revenue, they have it. I'm not saying that we redistribute that money to anyone. It needs to be used to pay our debt.

[pphilfran]

O

To be perfectly honest with you your dad probably did suffer some hearing loss. My dad was a military pilot and his hearing is bad. They did not wear hearing protection back then and those engines are loud.

Possibly...but he never wore a hearing aid...never has had a problem hearing even now at age 88...

[pphilfran]

People are so sick and tired of all the high taxes that record numbers are denouncing their American citizenship.

You have a link....

[olevetonahill]

You have a link....

Mostly Expats living abroad,

1800 aint much of a record to me tho

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/16/us-usa-citizen-renounce-idUSBRE83F0UF20120416

[LiveLaughLove]

There are lots of solutions. First, we have to limit the amount of government money an able-bodied/able-minded individual can receive in their lifetime. If you're on and off of welfare in order to work the system, after 36 months (lifetime), you should receive ZERO state aid. Starvation can be a terrific motivator. I'll bet if we cut folks off of welfare, there'll be a lot less work which Americans will no longer do.

Gotta make sure those jobs are available by getting rid of all the illegal aliens.

Finally, impose a more fair rate on the very wealthy. Reinstate the estate tax at amounts exceeding $1MM instead of $5MM, etc. The tax code needs to be written to produce the income we need for the government we want. Not to protect the accumulation of assets by our ruling class. We need more tax revenue, they have it. I'm not saying that we redistribute that money to anyone. It needs to be used to pay our debt.

Mostly good ideas.

Problem 1. If people are taken off of welfare, able bodied or no, the media will start running sob stories of kids starving, parents in the streets, etc. and the hew and cry will be enormous and politically painful for wimpy politicians.

Problem 2. The Dems have too huge of a voting advantage with illegals to ever allow us to actually get rid of them. Will. Never. Happen.

Problem 3. I don't mind more taxes for debt reduction. Estate taxes, I am loath, to lower personally. I can't stand the idea of the government getting half of my wealth just because I decide to croak. I am working to leave my kids and wife something, not the freaking government. And certainly not HALF!. I could live with 10% maybe. Too many family farmers have to sell their traditional homes to corporate farms just to pay the estate taxes. Nothing should have to be sold just so it can be given to the government. It's absurdly ridiculous. Even if it were going to debt reduction, my family shouldn't have to be saddled with that problem regardless of my or their worth.

[pphilfran]

Mostly Expats living abroad,

1800 aint much of a record to me tho

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/16/us-usa-citizen-renounce-idUSBRE83F0UF20120416

Thanks

[Soonerjeepman]

Mostly good ideas.

Problem 1. If people are taken off of welfare, able bodied or no, the media will start running sob stories of kids starving, parents in the streets, etc. and the hew and cry will be enormous and politically painful for wimpy politicians.

one of the biggest facilitators of all the bulls#$t out there...so screw 'em...

[Ton Loc]

one of the biggest facilitators of all the bulls#$t out there...so screw 'em...

F' the media. Those dicks are the one's responsible for filling everyone up with so much BS rhetoric that no one, left or right, really knows what’s going on. Most people choose their team, line up their media outlets with their team, then go about espousing the rhetoric that Fox, CNN, MSN, Rush, or any other blowhard talked about that day. How the regular people are supposed to solve a problem they can't see because of the massive amounts of interference between them and the truth is something the government, big corp, etc never wants to lose because they can continue to operate in a shroud of secrecy you're never going to be privy to.

And wrap...I feel better now.

[OU68]

F' the media. Those dicks are the one's responsible for filling everyone up with so much BS rhetoric that no one, left or right, really knows what’s going on. Most people choose their team, line up their media outlets with their team, then go about espousing the rhetoric that Fox, CNN, MSN, Rush, or any other blowhard talked about that day. How the regular people are supposed to solve a problem they can't see because of the massive amounts of interference between them and the truth is something the government, big corp, etc never wants to lose because they can continue to operate in a shroud of secrecy you're never going to be privy to.

And wrap...I feel better now.

A common complaint in the local paper is about "uninformed voters" - but you're exactly right, do you watch FOX and NBC and split the difference? Is Trayvon a baby-faced 12 year old with skittles, or a gold-toothed, tatted thug??

[usmc-sooner]

I think the rich get richer and the poor get poorer is due to natural selection not tax loop holes. The rich are like pro athletes, they probably make up a very small percentage of the population, the poor are like the kid who just didn't have the ability to compete in sports at the low levels.
The poor bitching about the rich (to me) is like me bitching about me not getting to share carries with Adrian Peterson or I don't get the girls that Tom Brady can.

I've been to a lot of other places, if you can't make it here you deserve to be poor. I think it's a personal choice.

[LiveLaughLove]

I think the rich get richer and the poor get poorer is due to natural selection not tax loop holes. The rich are like pro athletes, they probably make up a very small percentage of the population, the poor are like the kid who just didn't have the ability to compete in sports at the low levels.
The poor bitching about the rich (to me) is like me bitching about me not getting to share carries with Adrian Peterson or I don't get the girls that Tom Brady can.

I've been to a lot of other places, if you can't make it here you deserve to be poor. I think it's a personal choice.

Well said.

[Chuck Bao]

I guess that I deserve to be poor. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bitching about it because I'm probably much happier not having a big house to clean or a sports car to maintain or a boat that needs to be taken out on the lake. I'm unemployed. I don't even qualify for a credit card. I can't afford insurance and my pill bill is a thousand a month. I still pay my taxes and get no public assistance. Okay, I did one time when I put my land on furlough under the soil conservation program.

[LiveLaughLove]

I guess that I deserve to be poor. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bitching about it because I'm probably much happier not having a big house to clean or a sports car to maintain or a boat that needs to be taken out on the lake. I'm unemployed. I don't even qualify for a credit card. I can't afford insurance and my pill bill is a thousand a month. I still pay my taxes and get no public assistance. Okay, I did one time when I put my land on furlough under the soil conservation program.

Pick topics you are interested in writing about. Sign up for a free google adwords account. Use the keyword tool inside it and get ideas for keywords that rank 2400 searches per month-ish. Use those keyword terms in some blog posts. Post them at InfoBarrel.com (you have to make a free account there too and will need paypal). Do this once a day for 30, 60, 90 or more days (until you get tired of doing it). You won't get rich, but after a while if you picked decent keywords, you will start making some money. Nice thing is you will make money from these blog posts for a few years to come. Can pay for those meds with it.

In a few months, save that money, and start your own affiliate website. Pick something that you are interested in selling (Amazon sells almost everything). Start your blog, put up a couple of good 1200-1500 word reviews of a couple of products you want to sell. Make an amazon affiliate account (easiest one to start with). Remember, long tail keywords that get around 2400 searches per month and that have less than 300,000 webpages of competition. This is the important part.

A domain is about $11. Web hosting is about $7 /month on Bluehost. Very cheap for a business. Now you're not unemployed any longer. :)

[Chuck Bao]

Pick topics you are interested in writing about. Sign up for a free google adwords account. Use the keyword tool inside it and get ideas for keywords that rank 2400 searches per month-ish. Use those keyword terms in some blog posts. Post them at InfoBarrel.com (you have to make a free account there too and will need paypal). Do this once a day for 30, 60, 90 or more days (until you get tired of doing it). You won't get rich, but after a while if you picked decent keywords, you will start making some money. Nice thing is you will make money from these blog posts for a few years to come. Can pay for those meds with it.

In a few months, save that money, and start your own affiliate website. Pick something that you are interested in selling (Amazon sells almost everything). Start your blog, put up a couple of good 1200-1500 word reviews of a couple of products you want to sell. Make an amazon affiliate account (easiest one to start with). Remember, long tail keywords that get around 2400 searches per month and that have less than 300,000 webpages of competition. This is the important part.

A domain is about $11. Web hosting is about $7 /month on Bluehost. Very cheap for a business. Now you're not unemployed any longer. :)

Thank you LiveLaughLove for such a useful suggestion. I always thought that I could teach at the university level. I once had an offer from Southeastern, but I don't think that I have the patience to teach. I imagine that it is really annoying. I'll just stay unemployed. And, I'm not bitching about it because I don't care. If I can afford to go to sports events and spend half each year in Thailand then who am I to complain about my pill bill? Back to the main topic of freeloaders.

[diverdog]

Mostly good ideas.

Problem 1. If people are taken off of welfare, able bodied or no, the media will start running sob stories of kids starving, parents in the streets, etc. and the hew and cry will be enormous and politically painful for wimpy politicians.

Problem 2. The Dems have too huge of a voting advantage with illegals to ever allow us to actually get rid of them. Will. Never. Happen.

Problem 3. I don't mind more taxes for debt reduction. Estate taxes, I am loath, to lower personally. I can't stand the idea of the government getting half of my wealth just because I decide to croak. I am working to leave my kids and wife something, not the freaking government. And certainly not HALF!. I could live with 10% maybe. Too many family farmers have to sell their traditional homes to corporate farms just to pay the estate taxes. Nothing should have to be sold just so it can be given to the government. It's absurdly ridiculous. Even if it were going to debt reduction, my family shouldn't have to be saddled with that problem regardless of my or their worth.

I do not think number 3 is quite accurate. Only about 1% of the population pays the so called death tax. Most farmers that I know do not have a million dollars in actual assets and all the farmers that I know lost their farms to corporate interest because they went belly up.

If you are worried about paying the death tax then you need a good trust/estate planning lawyer and trust advisor. Or you can help your wife and die this year. :tennis:

[Midtowner]

Mostly good ideas.

Problem 1. If people are taken off of welfare, able bodied or no, the media will start running sob stories of kids starving, parents in the streets, etc. and the hew and cry will be enormous and politically painful for wimpy politicians.

Can't take care of your kid? Foster care is the answer. We need to break the cycle of poverty. That should involve taking children away from poor [lazy] parents.


Problem 2. The Dems have too huge of a voting advantage with illegals to ever allow us to actually get rid of them. Will. Never. Happen.

Illegals vote?


Problem 3. I don't mind more taxes for debt reduction. Estate taxes, I am loath, to lower personally. I can't stand the idea of the government getting half of my wealth just because I decide to croak.

First off, right now, you have to have a $5MM+ estate to pay estate taxes. Second, half? 35% is the top rate. Please at least Google the Estate tax before making such claims.


I am working to leave my kids and wife something, not the freaking government. And certainly not HALF!. I could live with 10% maybe. Too many family farmers have to sell their traditional homes to corporate farms just to pay the estate taxes. Nothing should have to be sold just so it can be given to the government. It's absurdly ridiculous. Even if it were going to debt reduction, my family shouldn't have to be saddled with that problem regardless of my or their worth.

Family farms are not generally worth $5MM. Corporate farms? Well they're corporate, hence the estate tax doesn't apply. Easy peasy.

[Midtowner]

I think the rich get richer and the poor get poorer is due to natural selection not tax loop holes. The rich are like pro athletes, they probably make up a very small percentage of the population, the poor are like the kid who just didn't have the ability to compete in sports at the low levels.
The poor bitching about the rich (to me) is like me bitching about me not getting to share carries with Adrian Peterson or I don't get the girls that Tom Brady can.

I've been to a lot of other places, if you can't make it here you deserve to be poor. I think it's a personal choice.

Bull****. While yes, it is possible for a few folks to break into that top 1%, it is largely dependent on family money and family wealth. Over the past two decades, 80% of the new income Americans have received has gone to 1% of the population. No. The ultra-rich have rigged the system to keep us wage slaves working making very little progress towards our own wealth while the system greatly favors already established wealth.

You want social darwinism? Great. Let's set up a system which taxes ALL INCOME equally. Yeah, I know, I know, the talking points yesterday said that investment income actually isn't income. Funny enough, it still spends just like income.

[Sooner5030]

Bull****. While yes, it is possible for a few folks to break into that top 1%, it is largely dependent on family money and family wealth. Over the past two decades, 80% of the new income Americans have received has gone to 1% of the population. No. The ultra-rich have rigged the system to keep us wage slaves working making very little progress towards our own wealth while the system greatly favors already established wealth.

You want social darwinism? Great. Let's set up a system which taxes ALL INCOME equally. Yeah, I know, I know, the talking points yesterday said that investment income actually isn't income. Funny enough, it still spends just like income.

Not to be a dick but Capital gains are taxed as income.....just not as wages. They have their unique rate which I do not like but the tax on capital gains is an income tax and are settled when you file your income taxes.

[LiveLaughLove]

Can't take care of your kid? Foster care is the answer. We need to break the cycle of poverty. That should involve taking children away from poor [lazy] parents.

I don't disagree, but I know the stories that would be told on the TV, and the demagoguery that would be slammed on any politician that dared to advocate it.



Illegals vote?

They aren't supposed to. I wasn't really talking about them voting as illegals. I mean the Dem's keep trying to find ways to legalize them so they can vote for them.




First off, right now, you have to have a $5MM+ estate to pay estate taxes. Second, half? 35% is the top rate. Please at least Google the Estate tax before making such claims.

Family farms are not generally worth $5MM. Corporate farms? Well they're corporate, hence the estate tax doesn't apply. Easy peasy.

50%, 35% same same to me (sorry I didn't bother googling it to be perfectly accurate, the tenor remains the same). It's too freaking much when the government did nothing to deserve it. 10% max. I pay God 10%. These morons don't need any more than that. IF that were all they could have and no way to possibly get any more, I think they would find a way to make government work.

I just saw an article yesterday about how the average government worker makes twice what his contemporary in civilian life makes. That is completely unacceptable.

[Chuck Bao]

I do not think number 3 is quite accurate. Only about 1% of the population pays the so called death tax. Most farmers that I know do not have a million dollars in actual assets and all the farmers that I know lost their farms to corporate interest because they went belly up.

If you are worried about paying the death tax then you need a good trust/estate planning lawyer and trust advisor. Or you can help your wife and die this year. :tennis:

I agree. A little estate planning and most people (read farming families) can avoid inheritance taxes. I owned a few hundred acres even before graduating from high school. The real point is that I didn't really own it or never will because it was ground into me what the family land really meant in blood, sweat and tears. I'd rather die from starvation than sell that land. I guess that I should start the process of giving that part to one of my nieces. Thanks for the reminder.

[Midtowner]

Not to be a dick but Capital gains are taxed as income.....just not as wages. They have their unique rate which I do not like but the tax on capital gains is an income tax and are settled when you file your income taxes.

Splitting hairs.. yes, it's under section 61, but it's not taxed like just about everything else there is.

[Sooner5030]

Splitting hairs.. yes, it's under section 61, but it's not taxed like just about everything else there is.

Yes I know.....I was just in one of those smarty pants moods. I actually wish CGs were taxed at each individual's marginal rate after wages. It might help prevent malinvestment.....and raise some revenue.

[diverdog]

I agree. A little estate planning and most people (read farming families) can avoid inheritance taxes. I owned a few hundred acres even before graduating from high school. The real point is that I didn't really own it or never will because it was ground into me what the family land really meant in blood, sweat and tears. I'd rather die from starvation than sell that land. I guess that I should start the process of giving that part to one of my nieces. Thanks for the reminder.

Put the land into a trust.

[Midtowner]

50%, 35% same same to me (sorry I didn't bother googling it to be perfectly accurate, the tenor remains the same). It's too freaking much when the government did nothing to deserve it. 10% max. I pay God 10%. These morons don't need any more than that. IF that were all they could have and no way to possibly get any more, I think they would find a way to make government work.

I just saw an article yesterday about how the average government worker makes twice what his contemporary in civilian life makes. That is completely unacceptable.

Actually, the tithing thing is an interesting tangent. The original Biblical tithe was paid to the Levites, a landless tribe of Israel which handled many of the ministerial functions of state. The Levites, in turn, gave 10% of their revenue to actually maintaining the Temple. Since our clergy is now out of the government business, why do we tithe more than 1% (10% of 10%) to the church?

That said, 35% is the same rate you'd pay on ordinary income. You didn't earn your inheritance, it's a windfall. It's income. Particularly since we're only talking about amounts in excess of 5 million dollars. And actually, those morons do need that. That's why we're running massive deficits. Both tax hikes and services cuts are the only answer.

I don't think folks will really start to understand what government costs until we actually make them pay what it costs. The estate tax seems to be about the most painless way for the government to obtain revenue.

[badger]

I really don't blame the free stuff for the financial issues. I blame the "buy now pay later" mentality that griped people of all classes, and the government.

People and the government weren't living within their means when the recession happened. They were living paycheck to paycheck AND maxing out the credit cards.

Unless there's an honest to goodness emergency, there's no excuse for spending what you don't have, regardless of whether you're wealthy, poor, middle class or the government.

Sorry if someone already said that in the first few pages.

[pphilfran]

Go back to weaning your pups...

[badger]

Go back to weaning your pups...

Never wake a sleeping baby badger... or any sleeping badger. In fact, just stay away from badgers. I hear they're quite huffy when sleep-deprived.:mad:

[usmc-sooner]

Bull****. While yes, it is possible for a few folks to break into that top 1%, it is largely dependent on family money and family wealth. Over the past two decades, 80% of the new income Americans have received has gone to 1% of the population. No. The ultra-rich have rigged the system to keep us wage slaves working making very little progress towards our own wealth while the system greatly favors already established wealth.

You want social darwinism? Great. Let's set up a system which taxes ALL INCOME equally. Yeah, I know, I know, the talking points yesterday said that investment income actually isn't income. Funny enough, it still spends just like income.

Bull****, if someone's parent's or family is part of that 1% they have every right to pass that onto their children. What I have when I die is going to my kids, and people can bitch about it all they want.

Like my athlete argument Adrian Peterson was born with genetics that very few are given. Should I stand around whining about God giving him and his family better genetics than mine? No. It's a simple fact of life people are born different with different gifts, into different economic status.

It to me is like natural selection the cream rises to the top, no matter how good you are you may not attain super wealth but you can do very well.

[yermom]

you can do a lot better if your parents are rich

[Sooner5030]

you can do a lot better if your parents are rich

Is it because they were rich or because the traits and attributes that made them rich also allowed them to successfully raise their children?

[diverdog]

Bull****, if someone's parent's or family is part of that 1% they have every right to pass that onto their children. What I have when I die is going to my kids, and people can bitch about it all they want.

Like my athlete argument Adrian Peterson was born with genetics that very few are given. Should I stand around whining about God giving him and his family better genetics than mine? No. It's a simple fact of life people are born different with different gifts, into different economic status.

It to me is like natural selection the cream rises to the top, no matter how good you are you may not attain super wealth but you can do very well.

You realize your odds are 1 in 100 don't you. And that is just to get into the top 1%. To get to the super wealthy it is more like 1 in 250,000.

Most people who are super wealthy have a combination of intellect, hard work and most of all luck.

The biggest reason we have death taxes is to level the playing ground. If we did not have them you would create a class of people who are the idle rich. One only has to look back in history to see how that has worked out in those countries who have allowed it to happen. I think it also forces innovation and makes people continually try to get better. That is why you see some very wealthy people like Gates and Buffett leave almost nothing to their kids.

The current $5 million exclusion takes care of about 99.99% of the population.

[usmc-sooner]

you can do a lot better if your parents are rich

you can also do better if you're 7' tall and built like Shaq

[8timechamps]

There are lots of solutions. First, we have to limit the amount of government money an able-bodied/able-minded individual can receive in their lifetime. If you're on and off of welfare in order to work the system, after 36 months (lifetime), you should receive ZERO state aid. Starvation can be a terrific motivator. I'll bet if we cut folks off of welfare, there'll be a lot less work which Americans will no longer do.

Gotta make sure those jobs are available by getting rid of all the illegal aliens.

Finally, impose a more fair rate on the very wealthy. Reinstate the estate tax at amounts exceeding $1MM instead of $5MM, etc. The tax code needs to be written to produce the income we need for the government we want. Not to protect the accumulation of assets by our ruling class. We need more tax revenue, they have it. I'm not saying that we redistribute that money to anyone. It needs to be used to pay our debt.

That's what I was fishing for. I'm with you on pretty much all of this, except that I think the tax code needs to be greatly simplified (and you may feel the same, I just couldn't tell from this post).

I can't stand the idea of wealth redistribution, and while no candidate is going to come out and say those words, that's the thinking behind some of the politicians.

I guess I'm of the opinion that jobs will lift us out of this situation. Taxes do need to be addressed, but jobs would go a long way in providing a way out.

[cleller]

Somewhere today, a guy spent an hour pushing around wet cement, so some chick he'll never meet could pick up a couple bags of chips and a couple fountain drinks for her illegitimate kids.

That's how it really works, unfortunately.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

I think the rich get richer and the poor get poorer is due to natural selection not tax loop holes. The rich are like pro athletes, they probably make up a very small percentage of the population, the poor are like the kid who just didn't have the ability to compete in sports at the low levels.
The poor bitching about the rich (to me) is like me bitching about me not getting to share carries with Adrian Peterson or I don't get the girls that Tom Brady can.

I've been to a lot of other places, if you can't make it here you deserve to be poor. I think it's a personal choice.
Except life isn't a sports game, the losers don't miss carries, they miss years off their lives and suffer a very low quality of life. Are there those who make poor decisions, ignore opportunities that are afforded to them and "deserve" do be poor? Undoubtedly. However, you're belief that America is somehow immune from the formation of an underclass, or poverty inherited across generations, is misplaced. Social mobility here is in fact lower than in many European countries, study and article (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?_r=1&sq=mobility&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all)

[usmc-sooner]

life is a life game not a sports game but in both you have the same things happen. The most successful and productive move ahead and to the top, they then have **** to leave to their kids and heirs. You don't need studies, it's beyond simple.

If you're not smart enough work harder, if you're smarter then work smarter and not harder.

[LiveLaughLove]

Except life isn't a sports game, the losers don't miss carries, they miss years off their lives and suffer a very low quality of life. Are there those who make poor decisions, ignore opportunities that are afforded to them and "deserve" do be poor? Undoubtedly. However, you're belief that America is somehow immune from the formation of an underclass, or poverty inherited across generations, is misplaced. Social mobility here is in fact lower than in many European countries, study and article (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?_r=1&sq=mobility&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all)

This is anecdotal, but I have a good friend named Andi from Albania. He moved here without speaking any english. He went to UCO and was a freshman for 3 years, he dropped out. He made pizzas for Mazios and rode a bicycle to work even in the cold winters. A friend at his church gave him an old Cadillac to drive that honked when it was raining. He had every right to fail and go on public assistance.

But he came here for the American Dream. No other country has that he is fond of saying. He started in a network marketing company with $47 that he put on his credit card. He worked his butt off in it.

His english is decent but his accent is thick at times. He is now almost a millionaire. He will be by next year. He takes 4-6 months of the year and goes to Europe and visits his family.

He would strongly disagree that Europe has better social mobility or better anything for that matter. He is a true blue American and he loves it here.

I have another friend from Iran that is very wealthy now from pizza joints. He came here with almost nothing to his name when the Shah was ousted.

The difference in these guys and most lower income Americans is they see all that America has to offer. Our lower income people and even middle income just don't see it. Maybe by that study we are less socially mobile, but it's our fault not the countries as a whole. It's there for the taking, you just have be ambitious enough to get off your duff and do it.

[Chuck Bao]

Good gosh, I'd be a multi-millionaire now if I had acted badly. I didn't and I have no regrets about that.

My house guests, Thai, British, South African and Americans, were having this conversation last night. My advice was to steal, cheat, lie, do what you have to do, and the only priority is health care and taking care of your loved ones' health care.

I can't get health insurance because the questions are 1) do you drink?, 2) do you smoke? and 3) do you ride a bike? Someone suggested that I should lie. I'm a terrible liar.

[jkjsooner]

You realize your odds are 1 in 100 don't you. And that is just to get into the top 1%. To get to the super wealthy it is more like 1 in 250,000.

Most people who are super wealthy have a combination of intellect, hard work and most of all luck.

The biggest reason we have death taxes is to level the playing ground. If we did not have them you would create a class of people who are the idle rich. One only has to look back in history to see how that has worked out in those countries who have allowed it to happen. I think it also forces innovation and makes people continually try to get better. That is why you see some very wealthy people like Gates and Buffett leave almost nothing to their kids.

The current $5 million exclusion takes care of about 99.99% of the population.

Exactly.

Here's the way I look at it and someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Return on investment generally outpaces inflation. I would suspect that it outpaces the growth of the money supply as well.

It would seem to me that that top 1% would just by sitting on their investments attain a higher and higher percentage of the nation's wealth. If left unchecked this would ultimately be extremely unhealthy.

Maybe this is a simplistic way of looking at it but I still think it gets the idea across.

This isn't about some form of socialism or fairness or anything like that. It's about avoiding a very unhealthy balance. Unhealthy imbalances tend to bring about extremism such as communism.

[LiveLaughLove]

The government isn't doing a death tax so that they can artificially social engineer money away from rich families. They couldn't give two hoots about the rich or the poor.

They want the money from the death tax to SPEND. It's political power plain and simple.

If they took the money from the death tax and had a lottery of some kind to distribute it to the middle and lower class citizenery, I might actually be for that. It would be interesting anyway.

"Here deary, those idle rich just donated $100,000 to you"

They don't want it for that or for lower the debt. They want it to spend, buy votes, nothing more.

[StoopTroup]

Best explanation of what is happening in America that I have heard.

CAN THE USA SURVIVE GIVEN THE FOLLOWING?

The folks who are getting free stuff, don't like the folks who are paying for the free stuff, because the folks who are paying for the free stuff can no longer afford to pay for both the free stuff and their own stuff.

The folks who are paying for the free stuff want the free stuff to stop, and the folks who are getting the free stuff want even more free stuff on top of the free stuff they are already getting!

Now... The people who are forcing the people to pay for the free stuff have told the people who are RECEIVING the free stuff, that the people who are PAYING for the free stuff, are being mean, prejudiced, and racist.

So... The people who are GETTING the free stuff have been convinced they need to hate the people who are paying for the free stuff by the people who are forcing some people to pay for their free stuff, and giving them the free stuff in the first place.

We have let the free stuff giving go on for so long that there are now more people getting free stuff than paying for the free stuff.

Now understand this. All great democracies have committed financial suicide somewhere between 200 and 250 years after being founded. The reason?The voters figured out they could vote themselves money from the treasury by electing people who promised to give them money from the treasury in exchange for electing them.
Thomas Jefferson said it best: "The democracy (Republic) will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

The United States officially became a Republic in 1776, 235 years ago. The number of people now getting free stuff outnumbers the people paying for the free stuff. We have one chance to change that On Nov 6th, 2012. Failure to change that spells the end of the United States as we know it.

ELECTION 2012 IS COMING
"A Nation of Sheep Breeds a Government of Wolves"

What is needed?

Obama:Gone
Borders: Closed
Language: English only
Culture: Constitution, and the Bill of Rights
Drug Free: Mandatory Drug Screening before Welfare
NO freebies to: Non-Citizens

Is this one of those emails that go around and pop up every 3-4 years?

[jkjsooner]

The government isn't doing a death tax so that they can artificially social engineer money away from rich families. They couldn't give two hoots about the rich or the poor.

Whether or not it is the intent, I think my point still stands.

You use the term "death tax" to imply that it is abnormal and punitive. There is nothing abnormal about taxing money as it changes hands. You can't give more than a certain amount of money to your kids without owing a gift tax. If your child works for you he/she must pay income taxes on that income.

I'm not sure why inheritence should be treated any differently. People say that they already paid taxes so they shouldn't have to pay it again but it's no different than any other transaction. Each dollar is taxed over and over again as it changes hands. If we only taxed money as it was being created we'd quickly run out of tax revenue.

In fact, in most cases estate taxes are treated much more favorably than almost any other form of asset transfer.

[pphilfran]

Exactly.

Here's the way I look at it and someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Return on investment generally outpaces inflation. I would suspect that it outpaces the growth of the money supply as well.

It would seem to me that that top 1% would just by sitting on their investments attain a higher and higher percentage of the nation's wealth. If left unchecked this would ultimately be extremely unhealthy.

Maybe this is a simplistic way of looking at it but I still think it gets the idea across.

This isn't about some form of socialism or fairness or anything like that. It's about avoiding a very unhealthy balance. Unhealthy imbalances tend to bring about extremism such as communism.

That has always been the case and will continue to be far into the future...

The larger your savings the faster you grow your net worth....

The poor don't have savings so they will always get further and further behind...

Unless...

We stop focusing our negativity on those that have been successful and move our focus into helping the less well off learn new skills that will allow them to compete on a world wide scale...

[LiveLaughLove]

Whether or not it is the intent, I think my point still stands.

You use the term "death tax" to imply that it is abnormal and punitive. There is nothing abnormal about taxing money as it changes hands. You can't give more than a certain amount of money to your kids without owing a gift tax. If your child works for you he/she must pay income taxes on that income.

I'm not sure why inheritence should be treated any differently. People say that they already paid taxes so they shouldn't have to pay it again but it's no different than any other transaction. Each dollar is taxed over and over again as it changes hands. If we only taxed money as it was being created we'd quickly run out of tax revenue.

In fact, in most cases estate taxes are treated much more favorably than almost any other form of asset transfer.

You didn't address what you quoted. Do they want the death tax to pay down the debt and stabilize our country? Or do they just want more to spend?

You and I both know the honest answer to that. That being the case, I oppose it strenuously.

I want the government to feel the hurt so they will start doing the right thing. Tough love sucks to do, but it works.

This country and a lot of the ne'er do Wells need a heavy dose of it.

[pphilfran]

Raising taxes on individuals and corporations will not make the US more competitive in the world market and will only force more companies to look at shipping jobs overseas..well, that will be the case as long as we continue to have trade agreements that are loaded to those outside of the US...

[soonercruiser]

THIS !

[Sooner5030]

Not necessarily a pro tax vs spending cut argument but I have always hated both property and inheritance taxes. I'd much rather have higher income/cap gains/sales and even a VAT before taxing property ownership and inheritance. It will never happen but I can always hope.

IMO