Barry vs Israel

[Mazeppa]

April 6, 2012
Obama's anti-Israel 'hot mic' moment
Ed Lasky

Anti-Israel activist Ali Abunimah in 2008

"Over the years since I first saw Obama speak I met him about half a dozen times, often at Palestinian and Arab-American community events in Chicago including a May 1998 community fundraiser at which Edward Said was the keynote speaker. In 2000, when Obama unsuccessfully ran for Congress I heard him speak at a campaign fundraiser hosted by a University of Chicago professor. On that occasion and others Obama was forthright in his criticism of US policy and his call for an even-handed approach to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

The last time I spoke to Obama was in the winter of 2004 at a gathering in Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood. He was in the midst of a primary campaign to secure the Democratic nomination for the United States Senate seat he now occupies. But at that time polls showed him trailing.

As he came in from the cold and took off his coat, I went up to greet him. He responded warmly, and volunteered, "Hey, I'm sorry I haven't said more about Palestine right now, but we are in a tough primary race. I'm hoping when things calm down I can be more up front." He referred to my activism, including columns I was contributing to the The Chicago Tribune critical of Israeli and US policy, "Keep up the good work!"

But Obama's gradual shift into the AIPAC camp had begun as early as 2002 as he planned his move from small time Illinois politics to the national scene. In 2003, Forward reported on how he had "been courting the pro-Israel constituency."

As Charles Krauthammer and others have warned: Obama's second term will likely be one where Israel is pressured as never before by an American administration (and I might add, Iran is ignored, the Muslim Brotherhood continues to be welcomed at the WH, etc).

We have already seen the flexibility doctrine in action-just look at statements made before AIPAC audiences and elsewhere that have been retracted within 48 hours (status of Jerusalem; having "Israel's back").

Stanley Kurtz called Obama "Senator Stealth" back in 2008 after reviewing Obama's history of concealing his agenda. Now we have President Stealth.

[soonercruiser]

His agenda is now being exposed by his "open mics" and his actions.
The questions is....will the Zombies awaken, or continue to vote for him?

[cleller]

Something Samuel L Jackson said may have hit home. At least with Obama.
quoting below:

Obama ain’t scary at all. N****** don’t have beers at the White House. N****** don’t let some white dude, while you in the middle of a speech, call [him] a liar. A n***** would have stopped the meeting right there and said, "Who the **** said that?"

'I hope Obama gets scary in the next four years,' Mr Jackson added, 'cuz he ain’t gotta worry about getting re-elected.'

[diverdog]

April 6, 2012
Obama's anti-Israel 'hot mic' moment
Ed Lasky

Anti-Israel activist Ali Abunimah in 2008

"Over the years since I first saw Obama speak I met him about half a dozen times, often at Palestinian and Arab-American community events in Chicago including a May 1998 community fundraiser at which Edward Said was the keynote speaker. In 2000, when Obama unsuccessfully ran for Congress I heard him speak at a campaign fundraiser hosted by a University of Chicago professor. On that occasion and others Obama was forthright in his criticism of US policy and his call for an even-handed approach to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

The last time I spoke to Obama was in the winter of 2004 at a gathering in Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood. He was in the midst of a primary campaign to secure the Democratic nomination for the United States Senate seat he now occupies. But at that time polls showed him trailing.

As he came in from the cold and took off his coat, I went up to greet him. He responded warmly, and volunteered, "Hey, I'm sorry I haven't said more about Palestine right now, but we are in a tough primary race. I'm hoping when things calm down I can be more up front." He referred to my activism, including columns I was contributing to the The Chicago Tribune critical of Israeli and US policy, "Keep up the good work!"

But Obama's gradual shift into the AIPAC camp had begun as early as 2002 as he planned his move from small time Illinois politics to the national scene. In 2003, Forward reported on how he had "been courting the pro-Israel constituency."

As Charles Krauthammer and others have warned: Obama's second term will likely be one where Israel is pressured as never before by an American administration (and I might add, Iran is ignored, the Muslim Brotherhood continues to be welcomed at the WH, etc).

We have already seen the flexibility doctrine in action-just look at statements made before AIPAC audiences and elsewhere that have been retracted within 48 hours (status of Jerusalem; having "Israel's back").

Stanley Kurtz called Obama "Senator Stealth" back in 2008 after reviewing Obama's history of concealing his agenda. Now we have President Stealth.

I could give a flying **** about Israel. Let them fight their own battles and leave us the hell alone.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

I could give a flying **** about Israel. Let them fight their own battles and leave us the hell alone.
This. We have virtually no national interest in helping Israel.

[yermom]

or at least call them on their bull**** sometimes

[Turd_Ferguson]

*Making notes of the anti-semite's on the board...*

[olevetonahill]

*Making notes of the anti-semite's on the board...*
End Times my Friend, End Times

[Midtowner]

This. We have virtually no national interest in helping Israel.

Pretty much. I really don't see what the big deal with Israel is. Step back for a moment from the fact that they're supposedly an ally. What did they ever do for the United States?

[olevetonahill]

Pretty much. I really don't see what the big deal with Israel is. Step back for a moment from the fact that they're supposedly an ally. What did they ever do for the United States?
So yer sayin we should not help any one who hasnt done anything for us 1st?

Good thinkin

Get us out the UN . Bring our troops home from Every foriegn country . Secure our Borders and tell the world to **** off dip ****s.

Got cha

[diverdog]

So yer sayin we should not help any one who hasnt done anything for us 1st?

Good thinkin

Get us out the UN . Bring our troops home from Every foriegn country . Secure our Borders and tell the world to **** off dip ****s.

Got cha

If a meteorite hits Israel and wiped it off the map it would not affect us one iota. Same meteor hits Japan or Korea or England it would pretty much put our economy in the chitter. We have no compelling interest in Israel and our 45 years of entanlement with them has cost us dearly. They are a two bit nation that does not deserve the stage they have gotten with the worlds only super power. We need to fix things in our own hemisphere.

[Midtowner]

So yer sayin we should not help any one who hasnt done anything for us 1st?

Good thinkin

Get us out the UN . Bring our troops home from Every foriegn country . Secure our Borders and tell the world to **** off dip ****s.

Got cha

Pretty much.

--at least that's what our founding fathers would think.

[Turd_Ferguson]

If a meteorite hits Israel and wiped it off the map it would not affect us one iota. Same meteor hits Japan or Korea or England it would pretty much put our economy in the chitter. We have no compelling interest in Israel and our 45 years of entanlement with them has cost us dearly. They are a two bit nation that does not deserve the stage they have gotten with the worlds only super power. We need to fix things in our own hemisphere.You don't know **** about ****...

[diverdog]

You don't know **** about ****...

We hnave spent over a trillion dollars in that part of the world to buy peace. Let me ask you do you think that is money well spent?

I have been to Israel....have you?

[olevetonahill]

We hnave spent over a trillion dollars in that part of the world to buy peace. Let me ask you do you think that is money well spent?

I have been to Israel....have you?
Just because youve been there, That makes you an expert on the region?

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

You don't know **** about ****...
Feel free to enlighten us

[diverdog]

Just because youve been there, That makes you an expert on the region?

Nope but I sure as **** have a good feel for what is going on. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that our foreign policy in that part of the world is ****ed up.

For instance, I spent a month at Taif RSAFB in Saudi. The US built the base, it is supplied with US fighters and guess what is its purpose? To attack Israel. That is ****ed up and it is something e average American has no idea that is going on.

We were at Ramon AFB in Israel which was built by a joint US project. Do you know what one of its purposes is? Yeah to shoot down Saudi Fighters with US combat aircraft.

Do you think the Israeli's gives a **** about US interest? If you say yes you would be wrong. They act out of their own self interest and there have been many times that it has hurt us. I am pretty sure they gave Bush II some ****ty intel that caused us to go into Iraq and take out their biggest enemy.

I don't hate Israelis and I don't hate the Arabs. What I hate is that for 54 years of my life we have backed both sides, spent over a trillion dollars to buy peace in that **** hole and they hate us more than ever. I want the **** out and I do not want to look back.

[yermom]

the country wastes a lot of money on the military industrial complex, but a lot of insiders get rich "buying peace"

[soonercruiser]

If a meteorite hits Israel and wiped it off the map it would not affect us one iota. Same meteor hits Japan or Korea or England it would pretty much put our economy in the chitter. We have no compelling interest in Israel and our 45 years of entanlement with them has cost us dearly. They are a two bit nation that does not deserve the stage they have gotten with the worlds only super power. We need to fix things in our own hemisphere.

Please keep this rule in mind!

For the libs, it's all about the money...the cost!
To he11 with morality!
Only do the right thing if it's in your "plan".
:dispirited:

[diverdog]

Please keep this rule in mind!

For the libs, it's all about the money...the cost!
To he11 with morality!
Only do the right thing if it's in your "plan".
:dispirited:

You are such a hypocrite. If we went into the Congo or Sudan or any of the myriad of other places in the world where there is genocide you would scream bloody murder. This has nothing to do with morality and everything about what is best for America.

[8timechamps]

We do have interests in Israel, and it's well-being:

Israel has more companies listed on the NASDAQ than any country outside of the US. More than China, Europe and India combined. To boil it down, Israel is an educated (something like the 3rd or 4th most educated population on the planet), and it's people have disposable income. In other words, the tech industry does, in fact, rely in part on Israel. Whether it be as a contributor to the NASDAQ, or the contribution to the tech industry as a whole, there are reasons we have interests in Israel.

[yermom]

wait, the Jews have money?

[8timechamps]

wait, the Jews have money?

Shhhh. Don't tell anyone.

[diverdog]

We do have interests in Israel, and it's well-being:

Israel has more companies listed on the NASDAQ than any country outside of the US. More than China, Europe and India combined. To boil it down, Israel is an educated (something like the 3rd or 4th most educated population on the planet), and it's people have disposable income. In other words, the tech industry does, in fact, rely in part on Israel. Whether it be as a contributor to the NASDAQ, or the contribution to the tech industry as a whole, there are reasons we have interests in Israel.

And their economy would be in the toilet without our freign aid. Israel does need us to defend them and they need to stand alone.

[SoonerProphet]

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/blog/2012/04/09/j-street-and-the-israeli-lobby/

[Bourbon St Sooner]

**** Israel and **** the Arabs! We've wasted too much time and resources in that ****hole!

[sappstuf]

And their economy would be in the toilet without our freign aid. Israel does need us to defend them and they need to stand alone.

They are the size of New Jersey surrounded by dictators and terrorists..

Besides, have you seen their women in uniform?? They should never stand alone.

[diverdog]

They are the size of New Jersey surrounded by dictators and terrorists..

Besides, have you seen their women in uniform?? They should never stand alone.

They have beautiful women but they are not friendly. In fact, on the whole I found Israelis to be arrogant and ill mannered.

[Curly Bill]

wait, the Jews have money?

Why do you think Brack wants to raise taxes so high? To take money from the Jews. Then of course he can give said money to his fellow muslims.

[OULenexaman]

In fact, on the whole I found Israelis to be arrogant and ill mannered. Like Rahm Emanuel??

[8timechamps]

And their economy would be in the toilet without our freign aid. Israel does need us to defend them and they need to stand alone.

Like I said, we have an interest in Israel. You should do some research on the subject.

[diverdog]

Like I said, we have an interest in Israel. You should do some research on the subject.

Some. It haS about 60% of NJ GDP. It is certainly not enough to dominate our foreign policy like it does.

[8timechamps]

Some. It haS about 60% of NJ GDP. It is certainly not enough to dominate our foreign policy like it does.

I don't consider our foreign policy to be "dominated" by Israel, do you? Could be give less to Israel? Sure, I think we could give less to a lot of countries, but just like many of the countries we do give aid to, we have interests there.

The last figure I saw, said we give Israel about $3 billion a year. No matter how you slice it, that's a lot of money, but (as I pointed out in another thread) our contribution to the two wars we are still involved with is over $130 billion a year. My point being that right now, our foreign aid to Israel is on the low end of the totem pole of things that should be re-addressed.

[StoopTroup]

If a Meteor hit Israel rather than some Middle Eastern Country wiped them off the face of the Earth...it wouldn't put an end to Israel.

I think many of you who don't read the Bible or believe in it have some really wild ideas about what might happen.

I think you might be better off dropping the idea of Israel and just going with "The Holy Land".

America will always protect the Holy Land and unless you go Hitler on the Jewish People....right after that Meteor hits...there will be a massive attempt to restore whatever is left of the area and even if there is nothing....it will remain the Holy Land.

This idea of that we have wasted to much time and resources is just crazy. It's what sets us apart from the Muslim World. It always has. It always will.

The only way it ever doesn't....the reading of the Bible and Churches in America will be outlawed and I don't ever see that happening. Russia tried it and failed. China? We know that isn't happening either. Just because their Leader is the way he is...it doesn't mean it's people follow him in regards to a higher power. It's man's nature.

Muslims may want to try and take that piece of real estate at whatever cost....but they haven't ever been able to do it and they weren't even willing to help Saddam keep control of Iraq. They eat their own there and always have. The Israelis....they are tough but they understand that we support them.

If every Israelis were gone in Israel Tmorrow....the rest of the Jewish people would be pushing to restore Israel just like America did after Katrina hit New Orleans.

I know some folks though restoring New Orleans was a waste of Money and maybe parts of it was....but the idea that America would abandon one of our busiest Sea Ports is as crazy as any idea that the Jewish People and the Christians in this World are ever going to abandon the Holy Land.

[StoopTroup]

Those who worry about "Barry's" involvement are just about as crap pot as Ed Lansky who wrote that article.

[diverdog]

I don't consider our foreign policy to be "dominated" by Israel, do you? Could be give less to Israel? Sure, I think we could give less to a lot of countries, but just like many of the countries we do give aid to, we have interests there.

The last figure I saw, said we give Israel about $3 billion a year. No matter how you slice it, that's a lot of money, but (as I pointed out in another thread) our contribution to the two wars we are still involved with is over $130 billion a year. My point being that right now, our foreign aid to Israel is on the low end of the totem pole of things that should be re-addressed.

Yes I do believe Israel dominates our foreign policy. How many shows has CBS 60 Minutes done on Israel vs England or China? How about the nightly news? When you live overseas you rarely hear about Israel. Look at how many times we have had a peace process and some sort of Camp David Accords. It seems every President since I have been born has try to buy peace in that part of the world.

I would rather see us focus on Brazil and India vs Israel.

BTW our foreign aid to Israel is closer to $10 billion dollars than $3 billion. We use some awfully slick accounting practices to hide the rest of the aid. Most of it is in military hardware.

[8timechamps]

Yes I do believe Israel dominates our foreign policy. How many shows has CBS 60 Minutes done on Israel vs England or China? How about the nightly news? When you live overseas you rarely hear about Israel. Look at how many times we have had a peace process and some sort of Camp David Accords. It seems every President since I have been born has try to buy peace in that part of the world.

I would rather see us focus on Brazil and India vs Israel.

BTW our foreign aid to Israel is closer to $10 billion dollars than $3 billion. We use some awfully slick accounting practices to hide the rest of the aid. Most of it is in military hardware.

First, our foreign policy isn't "dominated" by Israel. Just because you see a 60 minutes report doesn't make it so, if you can show me some kind of viable source that backs up your statement, I'd be more than happy to educate myself. Have we tried to broker peace in the region? Sure, and for good reason. Do we consider Irael an ally? Sure. Is our government's foreign policy dominated by Israel? No. We have far too many pokers in the fire worldwide to focus the majority of our foreign policy on any one country.

Second, (again), please link to your source of our $10 billion expenditure annually on Israel. I think you're going to find that number very hard to prove from an official source. We don't allocate anywhere near that much money toward Israel.

I agree, living overseas, you don't hear much about Israel. But, living here (in the USA), I don't hear any more/less of Israel. In fact, just about the only time I hear about Israel is when people talk about how worthless it is, and how we pump money into it for no reason.

I'm not Jewish, or particularly too religious, but after reading somewhere online a few years ago that we were giving $10 trillion a year to Israel (I'm serious, just Google it, there are a lot of very misinformed folks out there...not that it's too surprising to see), I decided to really research what and why we actually give.

[diverdog]

First, our foreign policy isn't "dominated" by Israel. Just because you see a 60 minutes report doesn't make it so, if you can show me some kind of viable source that backs up your statement, I'd be more than happy to educate myself. Have we tried to broker peace in the region? Sure, and for good reason. Do we consider Irael an ally? Sure. Is our government's foreign policy dominated by Israel? No. We have far too many pokers in the fire worldwide to focus the majority of our foreign policy on any one country.

Second, (again), please link to your source of our $10 billion expenditure annually on Israel. I think you're going to find that number very hard to prove from an official source. We don't allocate anywhere near that much money toward Israel.

I agree, living overseas, you don't hear much about Israel. But, living here (in the USA), I don't hear any more/less of Israel. In fact, just about the only time I hear about Israel is when people talk about how worthless it is, and how we pump money into it for no reason.

I'm not Jewish, or particularly too religious, but after reading somewhere online a few years ago that we were giving $10 trillion a year to Israel (I'm serious, just Google it, there are a lot of very misinformed folks out there...not that it's too surprising to see), I decided to really research what and why we actually give.

Champs I am driving back to Delaware from NC so it will be a bit before I get back to you.
Here is a link to read:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

[8timechamps]

Champs I am driving back to Delaware from NC so it will be a bit before I get back to you.
Here is a link to read:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

I think I see what your saying, based on reading the article. While the official reported amount of foreign aid is around $3 billion, there are more funds going into things like loans, military projects, etc. that put that total higher. Fair point.

[AlboSooner]

Israeli lobby in US spends tons of money in pro-Israeli PR = Americans believe somehow Israel is an ally of America, and America has interests that need protection in Israel.

PR works people. You spend money, you get results. Just ask Santorum how he liked going against Romney.

I can't think of one instance when Israel sent soldiers to help the US fight a war.

[diverdog]

Israeli lobby in US spends tons of money in pro-Israeli PR = Americans believe somehow Israel is an ally of America, and America has interests that need protection in Israel.

PR works people. You spend money, you get results. Just ask Santorum how he liked going against Romney.

I can't think of one instance when Israel sent soldiers to help the US fight a war.

Yeah it is pretty much a one way street and I do not consider them an ally. They are more like a protectorate of the US.

[SoonerProphet]

We do not have an formal alliance with the state of Israel.

[yermom]

that would explain that whole spy clemency thing that's going on

[8timechamps]

My argument was never about any alliance we had with the Israelis, or whether or not they would join us in combat. My argument is that we do have interests in Israel. Personally, I don't believe we have much of anyone we can depend on in a military sense. Sure, there are nations that contribute when we ask them to, but there isn't any single US ally that could stand on their own if it came down to that.

[Midtowner]

My argument was never about any alliance we had with the Israelis, or whether or not they would join us in combat. My argument is that we do have interests in Israel. Personally, I don't believe we have much of anyone we can depend on in a military sense. Sure, there are nations that contribute when we ask them to, but there isn't any single US ally that could stand on their own if it came down to that.

What interests do we have in Israel? Show your work.

[okie52]

My argument was never about any alliance we had with the Israelis, or whether or not they would join us in combat. My argument is that we do have interests in Israel. Personally, I don't believe we have much of anyone we can depend on in a military sense. Sure, there are nations that contribute when we ask them to, but there isn't any single US ally that could stand on their own if it came down to that.

Oh I think the Brits could take care of themselves pretty well.

[5thYearSooner]

What interests do we have in Israel? Show your work.

More like obligation to protect Jews after what Hitler did?

The Four major religions in terms of number of followers are Christianity and Islam followed by Hinduism and Judasim.

Christians have a lot of countries they could go to if they are being persecuted(EU,NA - Christian Majority)
Muslims have a lot of countries they could go to.(Saudi,UAE etc - Muslim Majority)
Hindus have India and Nepal(Hindu Majority)

There is no country where Jews are in majority.(Need for Israel)

I agree there are so many small religions that fall into same category but none of them are under threat like Jews(and to some extent Hindus) from other religions(mostly Islam)

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

The Four major religions in terms of number of followers are Christianity and Islam followed by Hinduism and Judasim.

What?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

Jews can go to anywhere in the developed world and not be prosecuted, last time I checked the pogroms are well gone. The only other religion which has its own "homeland" is Juche, LOL

[LiveLaughLove]

Israel provides us a ton of stuff behind the scenes about the middle east. Intel from Mossad is almost daily.

Also they are our buffer in the region. We use them like they use us. As long as Arab eyes are focused on them, they aren't focused on us as much.

You may not think that warrants them getting the help they get from us (I would agree that's debatable), but they do actually do things of value for us.

Something like 80% of cut diamonds to the USA come through Israel too. Just an interesting little tidbit.

[Midtowner]

More like obligation to protect Jews after what Hitler did?

The Four major religions in terms of number of followers are Christianity and Islam followed by Hinduism and Judasim.

Christians have a lot of countries they could go to if they are being persecuted(EU,NA - Christian Majority)
Muslims have a lot of countries they could go to.(Saudi,UAE etc - Muslim Majority)
Hindus have India and Nepal(Hindu Majority)

There is no country where Jews are in majority.(Need for Israel)

I agree there are so many small religions that fall into same category but none of them are under threat like Jews(and to some extent Hindus) from other religions(mostly Islam)

Why does the wish to preserve world religions merit billions of dollars (maybe trillions?) spent by the U.S. taxpayer?

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Also they are our buffer in the region. We use them like they use us. As long as Arab eyes are focused on them, they aren't focused on us as much.

I'd argue that Arab eyes associate us with Israel 90% of the time, we go pretty much hand in hand.

[SoonerProphet]

Israel provides us a ton of stuff behind the scenes about the middle east. Intel from Mossad is almost daily.

yes, and their perspectives have colored our perceptions for decades. which many would argue is not a a source of reliable or objective analysis.

[8timechamps]

What interests do we have in Israel? Show your work.

Read the entire post.



We do have interests in Israel, and it's well-being:

Israel has more companies listed on the NASDAQ than any country outside of the US. More than China, Europe and India combined. To boil it down, Israel is an educated (something like the 3rd or 4th most educated population on the planet), and it's people have disposable income. In other words, the tech industry does, in fact, rely in part on Israel. Whether it be as a contributor to the NASDAQ, or the contribution to the tech industry as a whole, there are reasons we have interests in Israel.

[8timechamps]

Oh I think the Brits could take care of themselves pretty well.

In a short lived conflict, the Brits are fine. Should they ever encounter a conflict with China, they wouldn't fare quite so well. Of course, the chance that they would ever find themselves in an armed conflict of that size and scale is very, very slim.

[8timechamps]

Why does the wish to preserve world religions merit billions of dollars (maybe trillions?) spent by the U.S. taxpayer?

I can only assume you mean spending total (as opposed to annual), because trillions is pushing it even for a total contribution.

Just so I know where you stand, is it just Israel you oppose foreign aid, or is it every country in the world we send aid?

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

I can only assume you mean spending total (as opposed to annual), because trillions is pushing it even for a total contribution.

Just so I know where you stand, is it just Israel you oppose foreign aid, or is it every country in the world we send aid?
Not answering for Midtowner, but the usefulness of foreign aid is highly questionable, especially in Africa where aid may be hindering development rather than helping it. Over $1 trillion in aid to Africa since 1970, yet the people are poorer in terms of real income. Corrupt heads of state siphoning of aid or totally seizing all of it, failing institutions and lack of infrastructure to properly deliver aid, as well as using the aid as a crutch. Lots of free money keeps inflation and debt high, and keeps bad governments in power. We can't solve Israel, Palestine or DRC's problems, and throwing money at the problem certainly doesn't help.

[AlboSooner]

George Bush said to the world after 9/11 that the UK was America's greatest ally, and best friend. I believe him.

America's infatuation with Israel is a result of pro-Israel propaganda in the media, movies, and politics, and the religious rights. obsession with Armageddon scenarios and the idea that somehow Israel's fate is tied to Armageddon.

Many countries have companies in the stock market. I don't see the president swearing allegiance to every country who has companies in the stock market. The Mossad rides in the coattails of the CIA.

[okie52]

In a short lived conflict, the Brits are fine. Should they ever encounter a conflict with China, they wouldn't fare quite so well. Of course, the chance that they would ever find themselves in an armed conflict of that size and scale is very, very slim.

Just depends on where they are fighting a war.....if someone was trying to invade the UK my money is on the Brits

[5thYearSooner]

What?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

Jews can go to anywhere in the developed world and not be prosecuted, last time I checked the pogroms are well gone. The only other religion which has its own "homeland" is Juche, LOL

Agree that Jews can go anywhere in the developed world and not be PERSECUTED. But the IF they were to be persecuted, then they need a country to go and live. Germany was pretty developed back then but still they were persecuted.
and FYI
http://www.translegal.com/common-mistakes/persecute-vs-prosecute
And Juche isnt a religion

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Agree that Jews can go anywhere in the developed world and not be PERSECUTED. But the IF they were to be persecuted, then they need a country to go and live. Germany was pretty developed back then but still they were persecuted.
and FYI
http://www.translegal.com/common-mistakes/persecute-vs-prosecute
And Juche isnt a religion
"Common mistake" as your link says, but I really guess you would want to get into a debate over semantics, since you are apparently poorly informed about the topic at hand. Where do you think persecution of Jews is a problem in the developed world? I realize Juche isn't purely a religion, but its included in most adherents lists. Hence why I included the "lol" afterwards...

[5thYearSooner]

"Common mistake" as your link says, but I really guess you would want to get into a debate over semantics, since you are apparently poorly informed about the topic at hand. Where do you think persecution of Jews is a problem in the developed world? I realize Juche isn't purely a religion, but its included in most adherents lists. Hence why I included the "lol" afterwards...


I agree that I didn't put Buddhism as a major religion, but they too want a country (Tibet) that is predominantly Buddhist.


-Antisemitism:
Germany WAS developed and persecuted Jews and I clearly used the word "if" when I talked about (future) persecution. May be you can read from Wikipedia about that too.
Anyways, imo, there is a good reason for every developed country to support Israel.

poorly informed about the topic at hand?? How did you come to that conclusion??

[Curly Bill]

I agree that I didn't put Buddhism as a major religion, but they too want a country (Tibet) that is predominantly Buddhist.


-Antisemitism:
Germany WAS developed and persecuted Jews and I clearly used the word "if" when I talked about (future) persecution. May be you can read from Wikipedia about that too.
Anyways, imo, there is a good reason for every developed country to support Israel.

poorly informed about the topic at hand?? How did you come to that conclusion??

Not speaking specifically to your case, but it usually just means you hold an opinion contrary to whomever says that to you.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

I agree that I didn't put Buddhism as a major religion, but they too want a country (Tibet) that is predominantly Buddhist.


-Antisemitism:
Germany WAS developed and persecuted Jews and I clearly used the word "if" when I talked about (future) persecution. May be you can read from Wikipedia about that too.
Anyways, imo, there is a good reason for every developed country to support Israel.

poorly informed about the topic at hand?? How did you come to that conclusion??
I came to that conclusion when you erroneously stated Judaism had the fourth largest religious following in the world.

German persecution of Jews has less to do with being a developed nation (yes, they were), more to do with the fact a merciless leader exploited horrendous political and economic conditions. I do not think in the current era that it is possible for such persecution to occur in the western world, that was my point on "developed" nations. If you can't see the difference in 1933 Germany and 2012 Germany or any other western nation in terms of development, there's not much I can say to you.

A good reason, such as?

[5thYearSooner]

I came to that conclusion when you erroneously stated Judaism had the fourth largest religious following in the world.

German persecution of Jews has less to do with being a developed nation (yes, they were), more to do with the fact a merciless leader exploited horrendous political and economic conditions. I do not think in the current era that it is possible for such persecution to occur in the western world, that was my point on "developed" nations. If you can't see the difference in 1933 Germany and 2012 Germany or any other western nation in terms of development, there's not much I can say to you.

A good reason, such as?

Ha ha ..Had you said I was poorly informed about the size of religious populations, you conclusion would have been correct.
The topic at hand isn't the size of the religions is it?

Also I never said persecution WILL happen..I clearly (repeatedly) said "if" persecution were to happen..I too don't think(and hope) in the current era it will happen..but IF it happens, then....

Germany was developed for that era (meaning..compared to other countries of THAT era)..no point comparing 1933 to 2012...

Also 70 -80 years is just a blip in the history..you never know how things could change..There are/were/will be always war mongers..

Anyways here is something off the topic to ponder..

Look at Afghanistan 40 -50 years ago..
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-08-19/world/afghan.untold_1_mohammad-zahir-shah-kabul-freedom?_s=PM:WORLD

I dont know how old you are but People who have seen that Afghanistan are still alive....

[Midtowner]

Many countries have companies in the stock market. I don't see the president swearing allegiance to every country who has companies in the stock market. The Mossad rides in the coattails of the CIA.

Exactly. If those companies want security, have 'em relocate to the U.S.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Ha ha ..Had you said I was poorly informed about the size of religious populations, you conclusion would have been correct.
The topic at hand isn't the size of the religions is it?

Also I never said persecution WILL happen..I clearly (repeatedly) said "if" persecution were to happen..I too don't think(and hope) in the current era it will happen..but IF it happens, then....

Germany was developed for that era (meaning..compared to other countries of THAT era)..no point comparing 1933 to 2012...

Also 70 -80 years is just a blip in the history..you never know how things could change..There are/were/will be always war mongers..

Anyways here is something off the topic to ponder..

Look at Afghanistan 40 -50 years ago..
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-08-19/world/afghan.untold_1_mohammad-zahir-shah-kabul-freedom?_s=PM:WORLD

I dont know how old you are but People who have seen that Afghanistan are still alive....
It seems relevant to the discussion at hand, but carry on.

You know I totally agree that you never know how things can change, hell the Jews went from being kicked out out of their own homes in the 30s and 40s to kicking ~700,000 Palestenians out of their homes in '48. For what its worth, I don't disagree with the principal existence of an Israeli state, just the manner in which they conduct their state. This idea that "they only can live in Israel without persecution" is ridiculous, though.

[5thYearSooner]

It seems relevant to the discussion at hand, but carry on.

You know I totally agree that you never know how things can change, hell the Jews went from being kicked out out of their own homes in the 30s and 40s to kicking ~700,000 Palestenians out of their homes in '48. For what its worth, I don't disagree with the principal existence of an Israeli state, just the manner in which they conduct their state. This idea that "they only can live in Israel without persecution" is ridiculous, though.

It might seem ridiculous now but in 30s and 40s that was legit. I know a lot of Jews moved here to USA and else where but still when people of a religion is targeted the way Jews were, it makes sense(imo) why they wanted Israel state.(How they got it is a different matter)

Also, I agree that the displacement of Palestinians gives them the right to claim their land (I see it as the continuation of religious wars in Jerusalem).

Since its a stale mate with both sides having compelling arguments, the international community mostly votes for status-quo and non provocation from either side.

Religion man Religion!!

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Since its a stale mate with both sides having compelling arguments, the international community mostly votes for status-quo and non provocation from either side.

Religion man Religion!!
Usually the international community votes in favor of Palestine, but the only international organization with any binding authority (Sec Council) has US veto for anything "anti-Israel", like a condemnation of Israeli expansion into the West Bank or Palestinian statehood.

[Chuck Bao]

I agree that I didn't put Buddhism as a major religion, but they too want a country (Tibet) that is predominantly Buddhist.

I'm a bit baffled by this statement.

According to Wikipedia, Buddhism was the world's largest religion in 1951 with 520mn adherents, compared to Christianity with 500mn. Now, it is ranked fourth behind Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. But increasing religious freedom in China, Vietnam among some other countries in the region and growing popularity of Buddhism in Europe and the US means that Buddhism may again become the largest religion of choice.

I have no idea why you mentioned Tibet, except for the exiled Dalai Lama and their fight against Chinese persecution and political freedom.

Buddhists have many countries that will support them, including Thailand (94.6% of the total population Buddhists), Cambodia (95%), Sri Lanka (70%), Burma (89%) and Laos (67%). In Vietnam, as many as 80% of the population ascribe to Tam Đạo ("Triple religion"): a mixture of Mahayana Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and ancestor worship. In Japan, estimates suggest that at least 84% subscribe to a mixture of Buddhism or Shinto. In China, 660mn or around 50% of the population believe in a mix of Buddhism, Taoism, ancestor worship and Chinese folk religions.

I don't know why I'm defending Buddhism because it is the one religion that really doesn't need to be defended or really takes itself too seriously. Okay, just forget this post.

And, I really wish that religion wouldn't enter into our national political discourse.

[8timechamps]

Many countries have companies in the stock market. I don't see the president swearing allegiance to every country who has companies in the stock market. The Mossad rides in the coattails of the CIA.



Exactly. If those companies want security, have 'em relocate to the U.S.

Look, I'm not arguing that we pour too much money into Israel, so I want to be clear on that. However, currently Israel has more companies listed on the NASDAQ than any other country (outside of the US). I'm not saying that's great, or that it sucks, I'm just saying that's how it is. Thus, there is a US interest in Israel. Like it, or not.

And Midtowner, you're an educated person, you know as well as I do that you don't just say "relocate to the US if you want safety".

Albo, the countries that do have significant listings on the US exchanges are primarily in secure countries (Germany, Japan, etc). Israel sits in the worst region in the world (as far as "secure countries" are concerned).

Again, I'm not saying we should be sending the kind of money we send to Israel, in fact, I don't think we should be sending anybody (save for the UK) aid until we are in good shape at home. But that's just not the way it is.

What stumps me is the mentality that we should abandon Israel altogether. Why do people single out Israel? If it's because of the amount of aid, I understand. If there is another reason, I'd like to hear it.

[Midtowner]

And Midtowner, you're an educated person, you know as well as I do that you don't just say "relocate to the US if you want safety".

Halliburton relocated its corporate HQ to the UAE. Can you tell me why this is impossible?


Albo, the countries that do have significant listings on the US exchanges are primarily in secure countries (Germany, Japan, etc). Israel sits in the worst region in the world (as far as "secure countries" are concerned).

How much should the U.S. taxpayer spend to protect Fortune 500 companies and stock listings which really only benefit the top.1% or so of our country?


Again, I'm not saying we should be sending the kind of money we send to Israel, in fact, I don't think we should be sending anybody (save for the UK) aid until we are in good shape at home. But that's just not the way it is.

What stumps me is the mentality that we should abandon Israel altogether. Why do people single out Israel? If it's because of the amount of aid, I understand. If there is another reason, I'd like to hear it.

1) because of the amount of aid; and 2) the ration of **** we get from foreign governments for our unblinking support of this state simply isn't worth it. Now I'm fine selling Israel weapons (so long as they pay instead of the U.S. taxpayers), but the cost of doing business just isn't worth it. All things considered, there is no rational reason why we should consider our fate tied to theirs.

[8timechamps]

Halliburton relocated its corporate HQ to the UAE. Can you tell me why this is impossible?

It's possible, but you and I both know there is no way it's going to happen.




How much should the U.S. taxpayer spend to protect Fortune 500 companies and stock listings which really only benefit the top.1% or so of our country?

I don't follow you. Anyone that is invested in a mutual fund or stock that is listed on the NASDAQ is benefiting. My career is directly tied to the markets, as is the 13 people I employ and thousands of other US citizens.




1) because of the amount of aid; and 2) the ration of **** we get from foreign governments for our unblinking support of this state simply isn't worth it. Now I'm fine selling Israel weapons (so long as they pay instead of the U.S. taxpayers), but the cost of doing business just isn't worth it. All things considered, there is no rational reason why we should consider our fate tied to theirs.

From the aid standpoint, I agree. Do we really get a lot of **** from foreign governments outside of that region? What about protecting democracy? I think every president that has ever sat in the WH has said that is an important priority for our nation. Do I think that justifies the amount of aid? No. I'm like you, I'd be fine if we just sold weapons. And, I personally don't think our fate is tied to their fate. Israel can do just fine protecting it's own. I have no issue with leaving it at that.

I think my point is still being missed. Like it, or not. Support it, or not. The US does have interest in Israel. Do I like it? Not really. But, that's how it stands, and nothing you or I can do will change that.

[Midtowner]

For starters, I'm actually fine with our President not treating Israel like a sacred cow.

[5thYearSooner]

I'm a bit baffled by this statement.

According to Wikipedia, Buddhism was the world's largest religion in 1951 with 520mn adherents, compared to Christianity with 500mn. Now, it is ranked fourth behind Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. But increasing religious freedom in China, Vietnam among some other countries in the region and growing popularity of Buddhism in Europe and the US means that Buddhism may again become the largest religion of choice.

I have no idea why you mentioned Tibet, except for the exiled Dalai Lama and their fight against Chinese persecution and political freedom.

Buddhists have many countries that will support them, including Thailand (94.6% of the total population Buddhists), Cambodia (95%), Sri Lanka (70%), Burma (89%) and Laos (67%). In Vietnam, as many as 80% of the population ascribe to Tam Đạo ("Triple religion"): a mixture of Mahayana Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and ancestor worship. In Japan, estimates suggest that at least 84% subscribe to a mixture of Buddhism or Shinto. In China, 660mn or around 50% of the population believe in a mix of Buddhism, Taoism, ancestor worship and Chinese folk religions.

I don't know why I'm defending Buddhism because it is the one religion that really doesn't need to be defended or really takes itself too seriously. Okay, just forget this post.

And, I really wish that religion wouldn't enter into our national political discourse.

According to your wiki source its 4th largest, according to SCS's source its 2nd. Anyways its wiki. But Thanks for the information. And no need to "defend" Buddhism because no one is "attacking" it. We were discussing persecution and I wanted to use Tibet as an example. That's all. No pun intended.

When it comes to Israel there cant be a political debate without bringing religion into it because, the country and its foreign policy are based on religion.