Trayvon Martin: Are Make My Day Laws a Good Idea?

[Midtowner]

It seems that in the wake of the well-publicized Trayvon Martin killing, the Defendant, while clearly not acting in a responsible manner, i.e., going to the perceived threat and then shooting, may still not be held criminally liable for his actions. There have been several less well-publicized cases in Florida as well where this was the case.

In light of this, shouldn't the Florida legislature amend the law to eliminate stand-your-ground provisions when folks aren't on their own property or places of business?

[Curly Bill]

So...I can't defend myself unless I'm at home or at work? Bull crap on that!

[sappstuf]

It depends.. Is he a Christian Taliban?

[Bourbon St Sooner]

All shooters are Christian Taliban until proven otherwise.

[Curly Bill]

All shooters are Christian Taliban until proven otherwise.

Ima go shoot somebody then. I always wanted to join a cool club.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

If I had a rock band, I'd name it Christian Taliban.

[Curly Bill]

I'd name my rock band: The Hand-wringing Liberals!

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Ima go shoot somebody then. I always wanted to join a cool club.

I don't think you actually have to shoot anybody. To the DailyKos folks, anybody that goes to Church on Sundays meets the definition.

[Curly Bill]

I don't think you actually have to shoot anybody. To the DailyKos folks, anybody that goes to Church on Sundays meets the definition.

I don't go to church but I'm very anxious to shoot somebody, can I still join?

[SoonerProphet]

This doesn't have anything to do with gun/self-defense advocacy. It has everything to do with some dipsh*t who has a Charles Bronson complex and a bassackward police department in F*ckstick Florida.

[Curly Bill]

This doesn't have anything to do with gun/self-defense advocacy. It has everything to do with some dipsh*t who has a Charles Bronson complex and a bassackward police department in F*ckstick Florida.

Quit trying to spoil our fun!

[ictsooner7]

So...I can't defend myself unless I'm at home or at work? Bull crap on that!

Defend youself from a bag of skittles? This guy is a self appointed neighborhood watch, he has called 911 around 50 times over the last 3 or 4 months. He FOLLOWED this kid, even after 911 told him not to. The kid was walking to his home in that neighborhood. The kid was running FROM him. He is yelling help, help when he was shot. There is no self defense here and that is the problem, anyone can say it was self defense I was scared. I have never felt the need to carry a gun, I can take care of myself without having one. It should be taken off the books.

[ictsooner7]

This doesn't have anything to do with gun/self-defense advocacy. It has everything to do with some dipsh*t who has a Charles Bronson complex and a bassackward police department in F*ckstick Florida.

hear hear

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I don't go to church but I'm very anxious to shoot somebody, can I still join?

Eh why not? I guess it helps to blow up sompum ever onceinawile just so folks don't fergit ya.

[OULenexaman]

Defend youself from a bag of skittles? This guy is a self appointed neighborhood watch, he has called 911 around 50 times over the last 3 or 4 months. He FOLLOWED this kid, even after 911 told him not to. The kid was walking to his home in that neighborhood. The kid was running FROM him. He is yelling help, help when he was shot. There is no self defense here and that is the problem, anyone can say it was self defense I was scared. I have never felt the need to carry a gun, I can take care of myself without having one. It should be taken off the books. where in the **** did you come up that story? There are no eyewitness's of that account you just posted. What a dip****.

[Curly Bill]

Defend youself from a bag of skittles? This guy is a self appointed neighborhood watch, he has called 911 around 50 times over the last 3 or 4 months. He FOLLOWED this kid, even after 911 told him not to. The kid was walking to his home in that neighborhood. The kid was running FROM him. He is yelling help, help when he was shot. There is no self defense here and that is the problem, anyone can say it was self defense I was scared. I have never felt the need to carry a gun, I can take care of myself without having one. It should be taken off the books.

I picture you as someone that couldn't defend themself against an overly frisky puppy.

[ictsooner7]

where in the **** did you come up that story? There are no eyewitness's of that account you just posted. What a dip****.

You are a ****ing moron. Have you not heard the neighbors 911 call that clearly has him calling for help then a gunshot? Have you not heard the 911 call from HIM that says he's running and the dispatcher says are you chasing him?, he answers yes, the dispatcher says don't do that?

Just look it up dumbass.

[ictsooner7]

I picture you as someone that couldn't defend themself against an overly frisky puppy.

There you go, thinking we liberals are pussies. I got through high school without much problem in a almost 50/50 intergrated high school cause i beat a kid up as a sophomore, he was taken to the hospital to have his face x-rated to see if I broke anything. At my 30 yr high school reunion, I had to tell someone how started to say in high school I saw the you give someone the worst *** whippin I've ever seen, don't bring it up, I'm not proud of it.

So yes, I can take very good care of myself without a gun.

[Midtowner]

where in the **** did you come up that story? There are no eyewitness's of that account you just posted. What a dip****.

You should try to read about the story we're actually talking about instead of offering up such ignorant and wrong commentary.

[ictsooner7]

where in the **** did you come up that story? There are no eyewitness's of that account you just posted. What a dip****.

Incase your too slow or stupid to look it up,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOpGAOXL5Uk


Via NPR.org: "Now that 911 recordings show how a white Florida man continued to follow a 17-year-old black boy even after police advised him not to — and captured the sound of the man killing the unarmed youth with a shot to the chest — Trayvon Martin's family wants the FBI to take over the investigation into his killing...".*

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/20/10774247-trayvon-martins-final-phone-call-he-said-this-man-was-watching-him

Updated at 8:01 a.m. ET: A 17-year-old boy whose death has sparked national outrage fearfully told his girlfriend over the phone moments before he was shot to death that he was being followed, contradicting the shooter's self-defense claim, the family’s lawyer said Tuesday afternoon.

Benjamin Crump, the lawyer for Trayvon Martin's, held a news conference on Tuesday to discuss the teen's phone records in the hours before he was shot in the gated Twin Lakes, Fla. community on Feb. 26. Crump said Martin, a black teenager, had gotten caught in the rain and had put on his hoodie, unaware he was being followed by neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, NBCMiami.com reported.

"He's just a kid trying to get home from the store and get out of the rain, that's it, nothing else," Crump said.

Martin was unarmed and had gone to a nearby store to pick up a bag of Skittles and an iced tea when the confrontation occurred. Earlier on Tuesday, ABC News reported that Martin's girlfriend said she they were on the phone together at the time.

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," the girlfriend, who was not identified, told ABC. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, the parents of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed Florida teen shot dead by a neighborhood watch volunteer, tell TODAY's Matt Lauer they want justice for their son and want the shooter, George Zimmerman, arrested.
Call logs from Martin's phone confirm he spoke with the 16-year-old girlfriend interviewed by ABC News minutes before his death, the news station reported.

More than 435,000 people, many alerted by tweets from celebrities such as movie director Spike Lee and musician Wyclef Jean, signed a petition on Change.org, a social action website, calling for the arrest of Martin's shooter, George Zimmerman, who has claimed he acted in self-defense. On Monday, the Justice Department and FBI announced they opened an investigation into the shooting.

Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' law could complicate Martin case

Although Martin initially told his girlfriend he wasn't going to run, he eventually did, she said, but the stranger managed to corner him.

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

[OULenexaman]

so where is this eyewitness? I have read nothing about a true eye witness. 2 dippers here.

[Curly Bill]

There you go, thinking we liberals are pussies. I got through high school without much problem in a almost 50/50 intergrated high school cause i beat a kid up as a sophomore, he was taken to the hospital to have his face x-rated to see if I broke anything. At my 30 yr high school reunion, I had to tell someone how started to say in high school I saw the you give someone the worst *** whippin I've ever seen, don't bring it up, I'm not proud of it.

So yes, I can take very good care of myself without a gun.

You spin a pretty good yarn. All part of being able to be a good troll I guess.

[Midtowner]

I picture you as someone that couldn't defend themself against an overly frisky puppy.

http://villagethinker.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/internet_tough_guy_-_because_its_easy_to_be_a_6_foot_4_olympic_powerli fter_and_streetfighting_god_from_behind_the_confin es_of_a_keyboard.jpg

[Curly Bill]

Saweeeet! Midtowner has a picture of Icky!

[yermom]

how does this case apply to the "make my day" laws?

if the kid was running away from him i don't think a change in the law would do much, would it?

[SCOUT]

There you go, thinking we liberals are pussies. I got through high school without much problem in a almost 50/50 intergrated high school cause i beat a kid up as a sophomore, he was taken to the hospital to have his face x-rated to see if I broke anything. At my 30 yr high school reunion, I had to tell someone how started to say in high school I saw the you give someone the worst *** whippin I've ever seen, don't bring it up, I'm not proud of it.

So yes, I can take very good care of myself without a gun.
Did you really just claim to be tough because you beat some kid up when you were 15? Wow.

[Curly Bill]

Did you really just claim to be tough because you beat some kid up when you were 15? Wow.

You better step back, you're asking for a butt-whoopin from our resident tough guy liberal.

[OU68]

It should be taken off the books.

Because some dip$hit shot a kid? Really? Bet you believe the Repubs are making up all the Fast & Furious charges too.

[Midtowner]

how does this case apply to the "make my day" laws?

if the kid was running away from him i don't think a change in the law would do much, would it?

Yes. Many places have requirements that unless you're in your home or sometimes place of business, you have a duty to retreat until you can't anymore before using deadly force. In Florida, any time you raise the defense of self-defense, the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you didn't have fear of being killed or suffering serious bodily harm.

That's a tough burden for the state to overcome in he said/she said sorts of situations.

Without the public outcry here, Zimmerman would have very likely gotten away with murder. He still might.

[OU68]

Without the public outcry here, Zimmerman would have very likely gotten away with murder. He still might.

No he won't - they have the 911 call he placed and the dispatcher told him not to pursue - he doesn't have a leg to stand on. And I do agree with this law - you shouldn't have to let someone beat you half to death before you can defend yourself.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Not to mention that the legal defense of the shooter is going to drag every possibly applicable ruling and legislation out there in the pursuit of his defense. Just because they're defending their client on the basis of X law or Y ruling does NOT mean that the circumstances are within the scope of the law or ruling nor that the guy's gonna skate just because his defense is screaming that X or Y applies.

I love using specific circumstances to advance a political position. Gives me wood.

[ictsooner7]

No he won't - they have the 911 call he placed and the dispatcher told him not to pursue - he doesn't have a leg to stand on. And I do agree with this law - you shouldn't have to let someone beat you half to death before you can defend yourself.

The problem lies with who is deciding what is self-defense after the fact. You should be able to defend yourself before taking a beating, but not to kill someone because you feel threatened. I remember an interview with a tea party guy at a rally in DC totally empty park in the backgroung and he was complaining he felt threatened and wish he had his gun. The interveiwer asked by who? No one is around. He said I just feel threatened without my gun.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Which has dick to do with the circumstances in this thread. Have a tasty red herring.

Who decides it? A court of law based on the facts at hand, referenced within the scope of the legislation existing and any supporting case law. That's the whole reason they're there. Quit trying to paint a demon out of this and let the judicial body do what the judicial body was designed to do instead of using a tragic instance to drive your dogma of eliminating legislation based on your personal beilefs.

[OU68]

The problem lies with who is deciding what is self-defense after the fact. You should be able to defend yourself before taking a beating, but not to kill someone because you feel threatened. I remember an interview with a tea party guy at a rally in DC totally empty park in the backgroung and he was complaining he felt threatened and wish he had his gun. The interveiwer asked by who? No one is around. He said I just feel threatened without my gun.

A few years ago an older man shot a guy in a road rage incident - the younger guy was coming at him telling him he was going to beat him - it's not black & white, I agree. But still don't think it warrants changing the law.

[KABOOKIE]

This Trayvon Martin has to be the dumbest kid in the world. Who takes a bag of skittles to a gun fight? Plus according to you liburals Trayvon should have retreated before trying to defend himself. This is thinnning of the heard.

[ictsooner7]

Which has dick to do with the circumstances in this thread. Have a tasty red herring.

Who decides it? A court of law based on the facts at hand, referenced within the scope of the legislation existing and any supporting case law. That's the whole reason they're there. Quit trying to paint a demon out of this and let the judicial body do what the judicial body was designed to do instead of using a tragic instance to drive your dogma of eliminating legislation based on your personal beilefs.

If charges are never filed then the judicial body can't do what the judicial body was designed to do. That's my point. They can use the law as cover not to charge them.

[ictsooner7]

This Trayvon Martin has to be the dumbest kid in the world. Who takes a bag of skittles to a gun fight? Plus according to you liburals Trayvon should have retreated before trying to defend himself. This is thinnning of the heard.

Sigh...........................

How was he trying to defend himself? He did "retreat" and got shot.

[TUSooner]

If I had a rock band, I'd name it Christian Taliban.

Make sure Santorum hasn't copyrighted it first! :)

[TitoMorelli]

There you go, thinking we liberals are pussies. I got through high school without much problem in a almost 50/50 intergrated high school cause i beat a kid up as a sophomore, he was taken to the hospital to have his face x-rated to see if I broke anything. At my 30 yr high school reunion, I had to tell someone how started to say in high school I saw the you give someone the worst *** whippin I've ever seen, don't bring it up, I'm not proud of it.

So yes, I can take very good care of myself without a gun.

So you're saying that porn was involved too?

[olevetonahill]

There you go, thinking we liberals are pussies. I got through high school without much problem in a almost 50/50 intergrated high school cause i beat a kid up as a sophomore, he was taken to the hospital to have his face x-rated to see if I broke anything. At my 30 yr high school reunion, I had to tell someone how started to say in high school I saw the you give someone the worst *** whippin I've ever seen, don't bring it up, I'm not proud of it.

So yes, I can take very good care of myself without a gun.


Now hold up a Minute
Anyone who can Make a Kid get an "X_RATED " Face is a pretty mean old boy IMHO

Did you really just claim to be tough because you beat some kid up when you were 15? Wow.

[OU68]

If charges are never filed then the judicial body can't do what the judicial body was designed to do. That's my point. They can use the law as cover not to charge them.

You're going to put Midtowner out of a job if you throw out every law that can be be misused.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

If charges are never filed then the judicial body can't do what the judicial body was designed to do. That's my point. They can use the law as cover not to charge them.

And there's multiple options that go beyond actually having the State drop criminal charges on the head of the shooter. So again, how is that "using the law as cover"? The law is the law. If the guy shot the kid and is within the scope of the law criminally, then why would the State charge the guy anyway? That's not the law as a cover, that's the judicial and executive body of the State executing the law as designed, based on the evidence at hand. This PLUS the ability of the family to pursue grievance civilly versus the shooter.

In other words, the weight of action rests in the hands of the family of the deceased and the facts of the case. Not in the flashy "look at me" call for justice coming from Wyclef and some other batch of retards. While the facts of the matter are bandied about like a political flag, what's lost in all the hype is the recourse of the family and the State. It's not about what COULD happen, that's yet another fallacy. It's about what SHOULD happen, based on the facts of the case and the letter of the law.

For example, I COULD fart in my hand and sniff it. I SHOULD do my checkbook instead. Does my bank raise hell and get celebrity support if I decide to fart in my hand? Turn this into an issue of race and a waving flag in support of hate crime legislation because I'm a white man and my turds are brown?

Let Lady Justice reign.

[KABOOKIE]

Sigh...........................

How was he trying to defend himself? He did "retreat" and got shot.

He didn't retreat. When asked what "was he doing here" instead of saying "I live right over there", he attacked this guy. It was only after he got shot did he yell for help. Stupid. Don't attack people and you won't get shot. Don't walk around looking for trouble acting all billy bad *** of the neighborhood and people won't stop to ask just WTF you are. Stupid.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

But but but...

The execution of the law to defend one's self was used as a cover so this guy could kill in cold blood!

This guy is a gun-toting maniac hating and killing young black youth because of his racist right-wing views!

If they don't put this guy in prison FOREVAR it's a complete and absolute miscarriage of justice and indicative of the law being yet another example of these right-wing lunatics pushing their personal dogma into making our country an obscene "Old West" utopia of brutality!

What right did he have to be carrying a gun in the FIRST place!? There's examples of right-wing tea party maniacs already feeling (unjustifiably) literally FEARFUL without carrying their sidearms like modern day Wyatt Earps!

He's just a young black man in a predominantly white community. He's already oppressed and fearful of the racism he faces on a daily basis! How else SHOULD he react to this threat to his person and wellbeing?

SKITTLES DON'T KILL. CRAZY HONKIES WITH OMG EVIL SIDEARMS KILL.

Now that the counter-argument is all out in the open, can we please carry on?

[ictsooner7]

He didn't retreat. When asked what "was he doing here" instead of saying "I live right over there", he attacked this guy. It was only after he got shot did he yell for help. Stupid. Don't attack people and you won't get shot. Don't walk around looking for trouble acting all billy bad *** of the neighborhood and people won't stop to ask just WTF you are. Stupid.

No.................................why was he being followed in the first place? How do you know he was asked "what was he doing here?"? He did not attack him, and the yelling for help was BEFORE the shot, listen to it again. Looking for trouble?, he went to get some skittles and an iced tea and was walking home.

[ictsooner7]

But but but...

The execution of the law to defend one's self was used as a cover so this guy could kill in cold blood!

This guy is a gun-toting maniac hating and killing young black youth because of his racist right-wing views!

If they don't put this guy in prison FOREVAR it's a complete and absolute miscarriage of justice and indicative of the law being yet another example of these right-wing lunatics pushing their personal dogma into making our country an obscene "Old West" utopia of brutality!

What right did he have to be carrying a gun in the FIRST place!? There's examples of right-wing tea party maniacs already feeling (unjustifiably) literally FEARFUL without carrying their sidearms like modern day Wyatt Earps!

He's just a young black man in a predominantly white community. He's already oppressed and fearful of the racism he faces on a daily basis! How else SHOULD he react to this threat to his person and wellbeing?

SKITTLES DON'T KILL. CRAZY HONKIES WITH OMG EVIL SIDEARMS KILL.

Now that the counter-argument is all out in the open, can we please carry on?

Which one is dead and which one is alive? He lived in that neighborhood, why would anyone stop him in the first place?

[Curly Bill]

Skittles make me hyper, so I'm guessing this kid was all hopped-up on Skittles and iced tea. I think it can be agreed that 9 out of 10 people would have shot him!

[KABOOKIE]

What this country need is more emotional knee jerk reaction laws. How about this one?

Make it a crime to carry skittles in your back pocket and look like a thug. That will prevent further shootings like this. Same logic.

[olevetonahill]

Which one is dead and which one is alive? He lived in that neighborhood, why would anyone stop him in the first place?

And again you misreport
You really are stoopid aint ya.

[ictsooner7]

And again you misreport
You really are stoopid aint ya.

You're really into calling me stupid aren't you?

Does it make you feel smarter?

[olevetonahill]

You're really into calling me stupid aren't you?

Does it make you feel smarter?
Naw, I just like pointing out the obvious:unconscious:

[Curly Bill]

You're really into calling me stupid aren't you?

Does it make you feel smarter?

You'll have to forgive Vet, we have an abusive environment at the hideout. He/we then take it out on other people. We recognize our problem, but it's more than we can overcome at this point. Bear with us please...

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Which one is dead and which one is alive? He lived in that neighborhood, why would anyone stop him in the first place?

Neighborhood watch, wasn't it?

In my opinion, that's the true question. If the municipality or state has legislation for the establishment and duty of sanctioned neighborhood watch organizations, was the actions that took place within the scope of duty of said neighborhood watch, backed by the "stand your ground" law once things escalated.

Point being, the stage is set, the actors in place. What happened happened. NOW it's up to the state to sift through the law with the investigation of the act in hand to see if and how the law was broken. You can humanize it, you can demonize it, you can wave a flag or you can cut a line in the sand, but regardless of what you do it's pandering to personal opinion and political position to do anything less (or more) than to review the applicable law, review and understand the investigation into the circumstances surrounding the event, and apply the law(s) as needed to the case at hand.

THAT is justice. Not the race card. Not the II Amendment card. Not who's dead or who's alive. Not anything else but the facts and the applicable laws. The minute one does more than this is the minute he transitions from a pursuit of justice to grandstanding and posturing.

[Midtowner]

What this country need is more emotional knee jerk reaction laws. How about this one?

Make it a crime to carry skittles in your back pocket and look like a thug. That will prevent further shootings like this. Same logic.

Maybe it should be illegal for black folks to wear hoodies? I mean a hoodie...hood...gang...drugs... you get the word association.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Make sure Santorum hasn't copyrighted it first! :)

Heh. Well maybe you can attend one of his rallies this week and he'll pray for you.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

There you go, thinking we liberals are pussies. I got through high school without much problem in a almost 50/50 intergrated high school cause i beat a kid up as a sophomore, he was taken to the hospital to have his face x-rated to see if I broke anything. At my 30 yr high school reunion, I had to tell someone how started to say in high school I saw the you give someone the worst *** whippin I've ever seen, don't bring it up, I'm not proud of it.

So yes, I can take very good care of myself without a gun.

I can't believe people are ignoring the pure gold that is this post.

I wonder if icky can make a 1000 yard shot. For all we know he could be a warrior princess also.

[olevetonahill]

icky is erroneously saying the Kid LIVED there. He dint, he was Visiting his Dad who did. The Kid was an UNKNOWN to any of em at the time this went down

[olevetonahill]

You're really into calling me stupid aren't you?

Does it make you feel smarter?
Oh and ya got to admit saying Ya made a Kid get an X_RATED face was pretty ****in stoopid

[Curly Bill]

I can't believe people are ignoring the pure gold that is this post.

I wonder if icky can make a 1000 yard shot. For all we know he could be a warrior princess also.

It has crossed my mind that Icky could be an LAS troll. ;)

[Turd_Ferguson]

I like how Icky knows exactly how things went down. LMAO.....what a troll.

Hey icky...if ya come to one of the TG's this year...don't give me an X-Rated face....please!

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I miss LAS.

Like a sore dick.

[Turd_Ferguson]

I miss LAS.

Like a sore dick.Imagine having a sore dick and an X-Rated face....now that'd **** ya off...

[jkjsooner]

Neighborhood watch, wasn't it?

In my opinion, that's the true question. If the municipality or state has legislation for the establishment and duty of sanctioned neighborhood watch organizations, was the actions that took place within the scope of duty of said neighborhood watch, backed by the "stand your ground" law once things escalated.

Your posts just emphasize the problem. If what this guy did was legal then there is a huge problem with the law.

Neighborhood watch guys shouldn't be following and cornering people. If some man who was not a uniformed police officer cornered me I'd fight back for my own safety. If the law gives that man a free pass to kill me then there is a huge problem with the law.

I don't know the technicalities of the law. I do know that the fact that the police didn't initially charge the guy is a huge warning sign right there. Obviously someone in the police department seems to think the law might protect him.

TF, maybe I'm misreading your posts but you seem to imply that the law will be enforced and however it turns out is good because it's the law and all. That just seems absurd to me.

[jkjsooner]

icky is erroneously saying the Kid LIVED there. He dint, he was Visiting his Dad who did. The Kid was an UNKNOWN to any of em at the time this went down

The implication was that the kid did not belong there. Whether it was the kid's normal residence or his dad's residence makes no difference. He did belong in that neighborhood (not that it should matter either way).

A kid shouldn't be followed by a crazy armed guy just because he's unknown.

[OU_Sooners75]

I am not all that familiar with the story...but here is the legal definition of self-defense:


self-defense n. the use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger. Self-defense is a common defense by a person accused of assault, battery, or homicide. The force used in self-defense may be sufficient for protection from apparent harm (not just an empty verbal threat) or to halt any danger from attack, but cannot be an excuse to continue the attack or use excessive force. Examples: an unarmed man punches Allen Alibi, who hits the attacker with a baseball bat. That is legitimate self-defense, but Alibi cannot chase after the attacker and shoot him or beat him senseless. If the attacker has a gun or a butcher knife and is verbally threatening, Alibi is probably warranted in shooting him. Basically, appropriate self-defense is judged on all the circumstances. Reasonable force can also be used to protect property from theft or destruction. Self-defense cannot include killing or great bodily harm to defend property, unless personal danger is also involved, as is the case in most burglaries, muggings or vandalism.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Self-Defense

With that all said....

If the guy was following the victim, which has been said he was, then this is no longer a self-defense claim as the accused is suggesting.

The accused will likely lose in a trial setting.

[olevetonahill]

The implication was that the kid did not belong there. Whether it was the kid's normal residence or his dad's residence makes no difference. He did belong in that neighborhood (not that it should matter either way).

A kid shouldn't be followed by a crazy armed guy just because he's unknown.

So yer sayin a Neighbor hood watch shouldnt be watching the Neighborhood?
Gotcha

[jkjsooner]

Police say they have not charged Zimmerman because they have no evidence to contradict his story that he shot in self-defense.

Let's go through the facts. The kid was unarmed. Zimmerman followed the kid through the neighborhood even after the 911 dispatcher told him not to. This means that Zimmerman was the one who made initial contact.

These are all known to the police yet they're unsure if a law has been broken. This means that either the law sucks or the police have a misunderstanding about how the law should be applied.

[olevetonahill]

Let's go through the facts. The kid was unarmed. Zimmerman followed the kid through the neighborhood even after the 911 dispatcher told him not to. This means that Zimmerman was the one who made initial contact.

These are all known to the police yet they're unsure if a law has been broken. This means that either the law sucks or the police have a misunderstanding about how the law should be applied.

Theres another Option
Maybe None of us has all the FACTS

[jkjsooner]

If the guy was following the victim, which has been said he was, then this is no longer a self-defense claim as the accused is suggesting.


Up to this point the police seem to disagree. They've known all along the guy was following the victim.

[Ike]

All I have to say is if I knew this guy was in my neighborhood watch, I'd probably be putting up a for sale sign.

[jkjsooner]

Theres another Option
Maybe None of us has all the FACTS

I never said I have all of the facts. The facts I mentioned can't be disputed.

It's really hard to reconcile those facts with any scenario in which Zimmerman was actually defending himself.

[OU_Sooners75]

Up to this point the police seem to disagree. They've known all along the guy was following the victim.

I really don't care what the police thinks...if the evidence hits the DA's desk, the charges will be coming.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Your posts just emphasize the problem. If what this guy did was legal then there is a huge problem with the law.

Neighborhood watch guys shouldn't be following and cornering people.

This. A thousand times. But the scope of duty as established by any legislation concerning Neighborhood Watches is unknown. Is this within the scope of duty? Are there restrictions on whether or not neighborhood watch participants are allowed to carry a firearm in the pursuit of their duties? Point being, most of the screaming about the circumstances of what happened is about race, gun control (or a lack thereof), or how this stand your ground law is a travesty. I have yet to see anything address the actual applicability of the law. And there's a reason, because that will be decided by the filing of the AG in a court of law.


If some man who was not a uniformed police officer cornered me I'd fight back for my own safety. If the law gives that man a free pass to kill me then there is a huge problem with the law.

As well you should. But is this the case or a generalization based on the publically known elements of the case? Again, a matter to be determined by the investigation, by review of the investigation, and pursuit in a court of law.


I don't know the technicalities of the law. I do know that the fact that the police didn't initially charge the guy is a huge warning sign right there. Obviously someone in the police department seems to think the law might protect him.

Possibly. Either that or the facts at hand after the investigation under applicable law shows the man to either not be at fault or not be in a position for arrest until completion of the investigation and discovery of potential charges.


TF, maybe I'm misreading your posts but you seem to imply that the law will be enforced and however it turns out is good because it's the law and all. That just seems absurd to me.

Why? The law is the will of the people. And if found that no charges will be filed in this matter because of the laws, the people (the state) were not grieved. Dead kid or not. Then it is solely a matter of legislative change, not a lynch mob and a demand to prosecute something that was again, within the scope of the law. That'd be no different than arresting you for spitting on the sidewalk where interpretation of the law allows you to spit on the sidewalk, even though the majority deems it wrong. That is beyond the purview of the state. All the hype, all the cries of injustice, all the crap is just that. Crap.

THAT is the point to where those who feel they've been grieved should move to change the legislation. All these cries to either hang or protect this guy are just rumblings for the sake of rumbling. Either he broke the law or he didn't. End of discussion.

[jkjsooner]

So yer sayin a Neighbor hood watch shouldnt be watching the Neighborhood?
Gotcha

There's a difference between watching and following a kid around the neighborhood.

[Turd_Ferguson]

There's a difference between watching and following a kid around the neighborhood.That makes absolutely no sense.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

No?

Does THIS make sense?

I bet he was following him for GAY INTERRACIAL SEX

[jkjsooner]

Why? The law is the will of the people. And if found that no charges will be filed in this matter because of the laws, the people (the state) were not grieved. Dead kid or not. Then it is solely a matter of legislative change, not a lynch mob and a demand to prosecute something that was again, within the scope of the law.

I'm not asking for a lynch mob nor am I asking for prosecution outside of the law. I'm saying that if the law does in fact protect this guy then the law needs to change.

The will of the people does not remove my right to be outraged over injustice. (And I'm saying "injustice" in a more general sense than just a question of whether the law was followed.)

[jkjsooner]

That makes absolutely no sense.

From wikipedia.


Neighborhood watches are not vigilante organizations. When suspecting criminal activities, members are encouraged to contact authorities and not to intervene.

And that's when an actual crime is underway...

Are you saying it's the role of a neighborhood watch to following everyone they don't recognize around? Are you saying we want grown men following kids around? You don't see how this could cause a problem?

What would you do if you saw a grown man following your kid around?

[KABOOKIE]

Maybe it should be illegal for black folks to wear hoodies? I mean a hoodie...hood...gang...drugs... you get the word association.

The difference between you/media/liberals and me is I didn't make it a race issue.

[diverdog]

I can't believe people are ignoring the pure gold that is this post.

I wonder if icky can make a 1000 yard shot. For all we know he could be a warrior princess also.

What is the wind, wind direction and temp? I get the value and you are a dead mofo.

[SoonerAtKU]

All I have to say is if I knew this guy was in my neighborhood watch, I'd probably shoot him and claim self-defense.

Who in the world wouldn't believe that the guy came at me, bro?

[OU68]

I'm not asking for a lynch mob nor am I asking for prosecution outside of the law. I'm saying that if the law does in fact protect this guy then the law needs to change.

The will of the people does not remove my right to be outraged over injustice. (And I'm saying "injustice" in a more general sense than just a question of whether the law was followed.)

So, if the FACTS result in his being declared innocent, the law will have "protected" him - isn't that the idea?

[jkjsooner]

So, if the FACTS result in his being declared innocent, the law will have "protected" him - isn't that the idea?

Are you saying that I can't be outraged that the law protects the person who appears to have instigated the conflict?

edit: if that happens to be the case

[OU68]

Are you saying that I can't be outraged that the law protects the person who appears to have instigated the conflict?

edit: if that happens to be the case

Not at all - if he was not justified (due to being threatened), then he will be convicted. Again, this is not an easy area - how do you prove you retreated "enough" if you're in one of those states?

[cleller]

Let the thing play out some. If Zimmerman was the "aggressor" in the incident, maybe the stand your ground provision can't be applied.

Not much evidence to go on, some folks say they overhead part of it on a cell phone, Zimmerman's statement. Zimmerman's main problem is Martins actions prior to the shooting don't look like something that would warrant confrontation, when the police had already been called.

Sounds like a good case for a grand jury.

[jkjsooner]

Let the thing play out some. If Zimmerman was the "aggressor" in the incident, maybe the stand your ground provision can't be applied.

Not much evidence to go on, some folks say they overhead part of it on a cell phone, Zimmerman's statement. Zimmerman's main problem is Martins actions prior to the shooting don't look like something that would warrant confrontation, when the police had already been called.

Sounds like a good case for a grand jury.

That's the problem. All indications (and it is backed up by 911 calls) is that Zimmerman followed the kid around the neighborhood and ultimately killed him. These two things are known yet the police have stated over and over again that they have no proof that Zimmerman wasn't defending himself.

The fact that the police seem to think they may not have a case is troublesome. After all, most cases won't be as clear cut. There won't be 911 calls that clearly show that the shooter was following the victim.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

The fact that the police seem to think they may not have a case is troublesome. After all, most cases won't be as clear cut. There won't be 911 calls that clearly show that the shooter was following the victim.

Why? They simply execute the law as written. And there is NOTHING about the lack of an arrest that suggests the investigation is not being pursued or that the investigation is being reviewed for the applicability of charges. You're assuming.

[Midtowner]

Not at all - if he was not justified (due to being threatened), then he will be convicted. Again, this is not an easy area - how do you prove you retreated "enough" if you're in one of those states?

Wrong. The state will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't fear death or bodily harm.

So basically, he can make a bunch of **** up and the state will have to disprove that before he can be convicted.

[Midtowner]

After all, most cases won't be as clear cut. There won't be 911 calls that clearly show that the shooter was following the victim.

Even this case wouldn't be as clear cut. Without the publicity and the independent federal investigations, the police being quite quick to dismiss this as self-defense would likely never have looked at the 911 tapes, let alone canvassed the neighborhood.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

So now we're assuming the police are INTENTIONALLY dismissing the investigation?

You need to change your name to Superman. Able to leap to tall conclusions in a single bound.

[cleller]

By the way, has anyone heard whether Martin actually lived in that gated community, or had a legit reason for being there? The stories I've read have left that out.

To cover themselves, the police dept really should have taken Zimmerman in for a formal statement, etc. Not sure the size of this dept, it may just be lack of experience. I'm sure they'll be made at least secondary scapegoats, one way or another.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

THEY HATE BLACK PEOPLE OMG

[TUSooner]

Is it possible, that some people are so protective and fearful about their gun rights, and so afraid of "liberals" (and hoodies) that they would ignore all the available evidence in an effort to excuse a simple case of foul, cold-blooded murder by a pathetic, moronic, vigilante? Judging from some of the arguments posted in this thread, it sure seems like it.

And is it really better to excuse a loser for shooting a kid than to agree with a bunch of angry liberals (even if they're right)? Seems like that is also the case.

Geez, at some point, even argument for the sake of argument is no longer appropriate.


NOTE: I refer to the available evidence as of this posting. And I'm pretty sure that even Florida law does not allow to you to create and initiate a dangerous situation, like by following someone, and then claim self-defense.

Some of you seem to be creeping near to asserting that "[_____] people scare me, so I should be able to shoot all of them within range."

[C&CDean]

Wrong. The state will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't fear death or bodily harm.

So basically, he can make a bunch of **** up and the state will have to disprove that before he can be convicted.

You mean like Ersland?

[yermom]

i've seen the type of person that will be a total busybody and would totally follow around/engage a person they thought was maybe up to no good or didn't belong there

i could also see that same person shooting at someone that was running away in the heat of the moment

what is the background of the shooter? were they licensed to carry? did they have some sort of law enforcement background?

i don't know the facts, but i can see it going down a lot of ways.

i also highly doubt the deceased was saying things like "gee, sir, my father lives down the lane, and i have purchased this bag of Skittles for my little brother. a good day to you!"

[TUSooner]

By the way, has anyone heard whether Martin actually lived in that gated community, or had a legit reason for being there? The stories I've read have left that out....

Well, that's different. If he was in a "whites only" area without his work papers, he should have expected to be shot.

Wait, are we talking about Florida in 2012 or South Africa in 1965?

[cleller]

Well, that's different. If he was in a "whites only" area without his work papers, he should have expected to be shot.

Wait, are we talking about Florida in 2012 or South Africa in 1965?

Geez, what a complex. That was a completely sensible question with bearing on the case. Why try to create controversy for no reason?

I simply asked why he was were he was. Walking home? What? Where's the controversy in that? Then you have to spout off about "white's only" and South Africa. Why is that? Brother, you are wearing your troubles on your sleeve.

If you read my posts, they show that I believe there is little to support Zimmerman's claims. If it turns out Martin has family in the gated community, is will further support that.

[TUSooner]

Before I move on to better pursuits, like drinking a couple of bottles of delicious Monk's Ale.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/241/monksale.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/monksale.jpg/)

Let me just say that, I do not know exactly what happened, and I don't advocate lynching the shooter. Not at all, and I condemn the mob that wants to do that. But the lengths of speculation people want to go to -- automatically -- in an effort to excuse a tragic killing are bizarre and paranoid to a disturbing degree. And I know this started as a thread about Florida's law, but I don't know exactly what that really is.

And as an aside having nothing in particlar to do with this thread, Midtowner is undermining my previously valid theory that it's the rightwing-lunies who start all the flaming threads. :rolleyes::nonchalance:

[TUSooner]

Geez, what a complex. That was a completely sensible question with bearing on the case. Why try to create controversy for no reason?

I simply asked why he was were he was. Walking home? What? Where's the controversy in that? Then you have to spout off about "white's only" and South Africa. Why is that? Brother, you are wearing your troubles on your sleeve.
You talked about having a"legitimate reason" to be walking a street in the United States of America. That phrase spurred me on, although I realize you probably didn't mean it that way. I don't think you're advocating apartheid, but think about why a person should need a "legitimate" reason to be out walking in the USA.

[jkjsooner]

Why? They simply execute the law as written.

Who is "they"? Why are you turning it around as if I'm saying the police is at fault? In the statement you quoted I was saying that the law is troublesome if it's going to be interpreted as the police has interpreted it.


I'm not bitching about the police here. I'm bitching about the law or at least the police's interpretation of the law.


And there is NOTHING about the lack of an arrest that suggests the investigation is not being pursued or that the investigation is being reviewed for the applicability of charges. You're assuming.

I'm going by what the police department has stated.

[jkjsooner]

Wrong. The state will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't fear death or bodily harm.

And this is where the law is completely B.S. When I lived in DC I would often be approached in my alley from people asking for money. Every time I felt a little threatened. If fearing bodily harm was the only requirement then I could have killed a bunch of them.

At the minimum these laws need to be rewritten to indicate that the situation would have caused a reasonable/rational person to fear bodily harm. That would mean that a crazy arse guy who's following an unarmed kid around a neighborhood would not be protected even if his crazy arse did feel threatened.

[cleller]

You talked about having a"legitimate reason" to be walking a street in the United States of America. That phrase spurred me on, although I realize you probably didn't mean it that way. I don't think you're advocating apartheid, but think about why a person should need a "legitimate" reason to be out walking in the USA.

A gated community is different than a city street. It is private property, and as such not a place the the general public is invited. It actually is not a city street. The communities generally are obligated to maintain all roads, etc, themselves. A big difference.

It gets irksome when people try to fly racist labels at you for absolutely no reason, other than make their point on a message board. Its plain uncivil. This makes twice in one day. On another thread I made the mistake of saying I thought public schools were awful, resulting in someone accusing me of racism. What about all this First Amendment protection? And just to state publicly, I know TUSooner is not some random hack, I just felt the need to respond to what I perceived as an unsupported accusation.

Why he was there is a pertinent question. If it was for a valid reason, Zimmerman looks all the worse.

[Midtowner]

I simply ask why he was were he was. Walking home? What? Where's the controversy in that? Then you have to spout off about "white's only" and South Africa. Why is that? Brother, you are wearing your troubles on your sleeve.

From Mother Jones:


Martin, a Miami native, was visiting his father in Sanford and watching the NBA All-Star game at a house in a gated Sanford community, the Retreat at Twin Lakes. At halftime, Martin walked out to the nearby 7-Eleven to get some Skittles and Arizona Iced Tea. On his return trip, he drew the attention of Zimmerman, who was patrolling the neighborhood in a sport-utility vehicle and called 911 to report "a real suspicious guy."

So he was a guest of a resident of the neighborhood. He had gone to the local 7-11 to get some Skittles and was on his way back.

[ictsooner7]

From Mother Jones:



So he was a guest of a resident of the neighborhood. He had gone to the local 7-11 to get some Skittles and was on his way back.

SON of a resident. Now going to the 7-11 and getting skittles is a theatening move?

[hawaii 5-0]

I suspect Zimmerman simply thought that Martin had a Kenyan birth certificate.


5-0

[Turd_Ferguson]

I suspect Zimmerman simply thought that Martin had a Kenyan birth certificate.


5-0You're a real ****'n piece of work...ain't ya.

[cleller]

The Zimmerman family is going all out to portray the shooter as Hispanic: "George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends"

I hesitate to call Zimmerman a trigger-happy zealot, for obvious reasons. I don't want to be called a racist twice in one thread for different reasons. Once for daring to ask a question about the victim, or a second time for calling the suspect trigger happy.

The easy way out is obvious.
The real culprits are, predictably, the police:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/22/trayvon-martin-shooting-hispanic-black_n_1371693.html

I have to allow, though, they opened themselves up to this. When one person kills another, you take them downtown, let them call a lawyer, and take a formal statement. Then you make a big show of how you are investigating, and will turn the results over to the DA.
The DA is the guy that gets paid to make these decisions. He chose to run for the office. Let him earn his salary.

[okie52]

I suspect Zimmerman simply thought that Martin had a Kenyan birth certificate.


5-0

I'll bet he thought he was Hawaiian.

[Midtowner]

The Zimmerman family is going all out to portray the shooter as Hispanic: "George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends"

I hesitate to call Zimmerman a trigger-happy zealot, for obvious reasons. I don't want to be called a racist twice in one thread for different reasons. Once for daring to ask a question about the victim, or a second time for calling the suspect trigger happy.

The easy way out is obvious.
The real culprits are, predictably, the police:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/22/trayvon-martin-shooting-hispanic-black_n_1371693.html

I have to allow, though, they opened themselves up to this. When one person kills another, you take them downtown, let them call a lawyer, and take a formal statement. Then you make a big show of how you are investigating, and will turn the results over to the DA.
The DA is the guy that gets paid to make these decisions. He chose to run for the office. Let him earn his salary.

Unless you're David Prater. Then, you're an ******* for prosecuting someone who kills a black kid in cold blood.

[hawaii 5-0]

I'll bet he thought he was Hawaiian.


You should educate yourself on what being 'Hawaiian' means. You just make yourself look ignorant.

Unless you're of Hawaiian blood, you're not Hawaiian. If your great great grandfather was born in Hawaii and didn't have Hawaiian blood, he's not Hawaiian.

Obama, tho born here, has never claimed to be 'Hawaiian'. He's Hapa, ie. 'half'. Mixed blood, in his case half haole and half popolo.

You're not being either cute or funny, just plain stupid.

Yes, if you call someone a ****ing coon before you shoot him, you're racist.

5-0

[okie52]

You should educate yourself on what being 'Hawaiian' means. You just make yourself look ignorant.

Unless you're of Hawaiian blood, you're not Hawaiian. If your great great grandfather was born in Hawaii and didn't have Hawaiian blood, he's not Hawaiian.

Obama, tho born here, has never claimed to be 'Hawaiian'. He's Hapa, ie. 'half'. Mixed blood, in his case half haole and half popolo.

You're not being either cute or funny, just plain stupid.

Yes, if you call someone a ****ing coon before you shoot him, you're racist.

5-0

Ha ha...Now now....simmer down there jack lord. So if you're born in Hawaii you're not a Hawaiian? Well that's downright unamerican...can't think of another one of the 57 states that would be so unfriendly.

[Turd_Ferguson]

You should educate yourself on what being 'Hawaiian' means. You just make yourself look ignorant.

Unless you're of Hawaiian blood, you're not Hawaiian. If your great great grandfather was born in Hawaii and didn't have Hawaiian blood, he's not Hawaiian.

Obama, tho born here, has never claimed to be 'Hawaiian'. He's Hapa, ie. 'half'. Mixed blood, in his case half haole and half popolo.

You're not being either cute or funny, just plain stupid.

Yes, if you call someone a ****ing coon before you shoot him, you're racist.

5-0So, your saying he called him a coon before he shot him?

[Midtowner]

So, your saying he called him a coon before he shot him?

9OT7olbN5JI

Go to 2:21

[hawaii 5-0]

Ha ha...Now now....simmer down there jack lord. So if you're born in Hawaii you're not a Hawaiian? Well that's downright unamerican...can't think of another one of the 57 states that would be so unfriendly.


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. No Hawaiian Blood, no Hawaiian.

You do understand that Hawaii was a Kingdom in the late 1800's?

5-0

[hawaii 5-0]

So, your saying he called him a coon before he shot him?


I didn't say anyone called anyone anything.

If you read between the lines, it's your imagination, not mine.

5-0

[okie52]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. No Hawaiian Blood, no Hawaiian.

You do understand that Hawaii was a Kingdom in the late 1800's?

5-0

Sounds like you're living with a bunch of racists...get out while you can.

[StoopTroup]

Yeah that tape does kind of sound like Zimmerman said that. The 911 tape also has him saying something like these guys seem to always get away with this stuff. I'm guessing that Zimmerman really had knowledge of crimes within the Community and felt like either many of them had gone unsolved or that many residents were living in fear in the Community. I think that just having a Neighborhood Watch kind of proves that some residents were trying to help reduce crime.

I heard a news report that stated that Zimmerman had called 911 over 22 times in the last year or so reporting suspicious activity.

All of this said, it could be that the police and the DA were maybe taking things slow in regards to filing charges against Zimmerman?

Of those 22 calls he made, I wonder how many of them were about a black male being suspicious?

Also I heard a liberal view on this that does kind of spin things in a direction that did get me to asking if this situation had been a Black Guy calling 911 complaining about a suspicious White Guy and he had followed the guy and it had ended the way the Zimmerman calls have ended, would the black caller/shooter have been arrested?

This is a heck of a mess and IMO proves that America has some pretty long strides to be made before we can claim that Racism is dead in this Country and I kind of agree with TU in that we are talking about a kid that was walking from his relative's Home to the Store for a snack and a drink. Unless you see him doing something suspicious why not just follow him and observe?

To me it seems like Zimmerman put that kid on trial the instant he saw him. I've done it too but I never confront, I just observe. Get as much info as possible and help the police check things out. Neighborhood Watch is to help put a stop to crime, you know prevent crime. Now Zimmerman has a neighbor who he has killed one of his relatives(?) or at the very least a friend.

To not see the sadness of this situation surely is the worst crime IMO. Saying you are ready to shoot the next person you think is suspicious walking in your neighborhood doesn't seem like a very smart thing to say.

[StoopTroup]

Sounds like you're living with a bunch of racists...get out while you can.

I've been to Ohau and spoke with locals. We stayed over on the West Side while there and it seemed there were quite a few folks that were permanent residents living there. The Books I have read about Hawaii are pretty clear that the original inhabitants of Hawaii were of Polynesian Desecent. From what I have read they felt the Mainland of America indeed did invade and take over the Islands of Hawaii. That said, it would seem that they have decided to try and embrace the Declaration of Independance, The US Constitution, The Bill of Rights and asked that we be respectful of the many historical and cultural things that are pertinent to the Hawaiian Islands. As far as I can tell, 5-0 has learned to embrace it all since moving there. He seems happy even though he must watch Sooner Games on TV.

I get the feeling that he has to deal with much less rascism there than most Okies.

[okie52]

I've been to Ohau and spoke with locals. We stayed over on the West Side while there and it seemed there were quite a few folks that were permanent residents living there. The Books I have read about Hawaii are pretty clear that the original inhabitants of Hawaii were of Polynesian Desecent. From what I have read they felt the Mainland of America indeed did invade and take over the Islands of Hawaii. That said, it would seem that they have decided to try and embrace the Declaration of Independance, The US Constitution, The Bill of Rights and asked that we be respectful of the many historical and cultural things that are pertinent to the Hawaiian Islands. As far as I can tell, 5-0 has learned to embrace it all since moving there. He seems happy even though he must watch Sooner Games on TV.

I get the feeling that he has to deal with much less rascism there than most Okies.

Well you did just say Okies...not hapa or haole or popolo or whatever label the Hawaiians think you are entitled to. No wonder Obama is so confused.

[LiveLaughLove]

Very sad situation. The shooter appears to have committed murder and should be punished.

Now I say appears because we are only hearing part of the story from a media that felt it necessary to label the races of the killer and the victim. When they do that they are working a bias that makes me also suspect their reportage.

Murder is illegal. We don't need the nanny state to make or unmake laws because of one case. The law against murder is already covered. If the Guy is guilty, he will be judged appropriately and put in jail or on death row and rightly so.

The guys family says he is Hispanic and al sharpton is ginning up emotions and sounds like he has forgotten how to speak. Seems racist of him to try and sound "ghetto" when he is speaking to a black audience. We already know he is a charlaten, now we know he is a racist opportunist.

[hawaii 5-0]

So when does ****ing coon not mean ****ing coon???

I'm not counting when some raccoon sneaks onto your back porch and steals the fish you just caught.


Spin and deflect away !!!!

I think this was a hate crime, pure and simple.

5-0

[Midtowner]

Very sad situation. The shooter appears to have committed murder and should be punished.

Now I say appears because we are only hearing part of the story from a media that felt it necessary to label the races of the killer and the victim. When they do that they are working a bias that makes me also suspect their reportage.

Murder is illegal. We don't need the nanny state to make or unmake laws because of one case. The law against murder is already covered. If the Guy is guilty, he will be judged appropriately and put in jail or on death row and rightly so.

The guys family says he is Hispanic and al sharpton is ginning up emotions and sounds like he has forgotten how to speak. Seems racist of him to try and sound "ghetto" when he is speaking to a black audience. We already know he is a charlaten, now we know he is a racist opportunist.

Trouble is that the current law in Florida makes it likely that even if he is charged, he'll be acquitted. The state is going to have to prove by clear and convincing evidence that Zimmerman did not fear death or serious bodily harm. Most other states require you to retreat if you reasonably can before using deadly force. Florida law actually allowed this idiot to follow Martin through the neighborhood and pursue him until he shot him.

[cleller]

Maybe its my ears, speakers, I don't know. I couldn't understand what the guy said during the recording. Sadly, it seems he was just to over-involved. His gun toting bravado masked some underlying weakness under pressure. Subtract his lack of common sense and perspective, and this happens.

Neighborhood watch groups are great. I've seen them do some excellent work. Armed self appointed patrols are a bad idea.

[yermom]

Trouble is that the current law in Florida makes it likely that even if he is charged, he'll be acquitted. The state is going to have to prove by clear and convincing evidence that Zimmerman did not fear death or serious bodily harm. Most other states require you to retreat if you reasonably can before using deadly force. Florida law actually allowed this idiot to follow Martin through the neighborhood and pursue him until he shot him.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html


(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

i don't see where harassing someone until a confrontation starts and then shooting them applies here

[ictsooner7]

Where or not he said coon is going to be just like obama’s birth certificate. Those who don’t want to think or believe he said it will never hear it. It wouldn’t matter how much evidence you have, they just won’t want to believe it.

[jkjsooner]

i don't see where harassing someone until a confrontation starts and then shooting them applies here

You may be right but the statements made by the police department imply that they view the law differently.

We know from the tapes that the kid was unarmed, that Zimmerman was following him, and that the kid at one point was running away from Zimmerman. Without this crazy law that in itself is enough to throw out any reasonable self defense argument and have Zimmerman arrested on the spot.

The law needs to be reviewed and reworked. As it has been interpreted, you can make a strong argument that both Zimmerman and Martin both at different times felt sufficiently threatened to warrant deadly force.

It appears to me that this law is just asking for simple misunderstandings to escalate into "justifiable" homicide.

[jkjsooner]

I'd like to know what kind of statement that Zimmerman made to the police. Did they not ask him how the confrontation started?

I'm sorry but if you are the one following someone else, you have a tough road to climb to convince me that the other man (child) was the one who instigated the confrontation.

[AlboSooner]

We must never judge a policy, or law based on the abuses made in its name.

[olevetonahill]

Obama: 'If I Had A Son, He Would Look Like Trayvon'

I dont see it

2615

[Curly Bill]

Obama: 'If I Had A Son, He Would Look Like Trayvon'

I dont see it

2615

Yeah, this kid doesn't look dorky enough to be Brack's, or even be related to Brack.

[OULenexaman]

Obama: 'If I Had A Son, He Would Look Like Trayvon'

I dont see it

2615 Pre skittles or post skittles?

[jkjsooner]

We must never judge a policy, or law based on the abuses made in its name.

First off this is just a nonsense statement. If a law is so poor that it's easily abused then I'll judge it.

The second part is that this might not even be an abuse of the law. According to the wording of the law, if Zimmerman ever felt threatened he had the right to use deadly force. I don't see anything in the law that excludes cases where he followed and scared the living crap out of the kid before feeling threatened himself.

It's a poor law.


A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

The English seem to have a much better handle on this. There is no way that Zimmerman could have met the criteria under this.


In English law the focus of the test is whether the defendant is acting reasonably in the particular situation. There is no specific requirement that a person must retreat in anticipation of an attack. Although some withdrawal would be useful evidence to prove that the defendant did not want to fight, not every defendant is able to escape. In R v Bird (1985) 1 WLR 816 the defendant was physically attacked, and reacted instinctively and immediately without having the opportunity to retreat.

[AlboSooner]

First off this is just a nonsense statement. If a law is so poor that it's easily abused then I'll judge it.

The second part is that this might not even be an abuse of the law. According to the wording of the law, if Zimmerman ever felt threatened he had the right to use deadly force. I don't see anything in the law that excludes cases where he followed and scared the living crap out of the kid before feeling threatened himself.

It's a poor law.
I have not read the law. I was just making a general statement. It seemed to you like a nonsense statement, which means you support the idea that we must judge a law based on the abuses made in its name. You rock bro.
Looks like you're trying to find a target to vent your internet outrage; sorry not getting into this media-fed weekly outrage case.

ciao.

[KABOOKIE]

Trayvon did not retreat. He stood his ground and decided punching Mr. Zimmerman about the face was the best way to deal with the percieved threat. We cannot have people like Trayvon out running loose thinking that everyone that ask them a question needs to be beat to a pulp.

[Midtowner]

We must never judge a policy, or law based on the abuses made in its name.

Are you kidding? That's exactly how we judge policy and law. And who is to say it's an abuse? The law specifically allows you to meet force with perceived force and gives no duty to retreat. It is a law which can and does result in unnecessary loss of life.

[Midtowner]

Trayvon did not retreat. He stood his ground and decided punching Mr. Zimmerman about the face was the best way to deal with the percieved threat. We cannot have people like Trayvon out running loose thinking that everyone that ask them a question needs to be beat to a pulp.

So said Zimmerman. As we saw in the Ersland case, murderers lie (and not very well).

If the account Martin's girlfriend gives regarding their conversation is to be believed, Zimmerman's a liar. He was also the aggressor. Still, under this law, Zimmerman is most likely a free man.

[sappstuf]

Obama: 'If I Had A Son, He Would Look Like Trayvon'

I dont see it

2615

He must have his mother's ears....

[LiveLaughLove]

Did Obama actually speak on another case that is currently still active?

If he did he is grossly (once more) out of bounds. I guess the al sharpton in him just can't help it.

As for the case itself, the girlfriend could just as easily be lying as Zimmerman could be. I don't know which is telling the truth. That's for the police to ascertain. I am leaning toward thinking Zimmerman should be arrested and charged with murder, but once more, I don't trust the medias biased reporting.

As for the audio, haven't listened but ict is partially right, he just couldn't help himself with his bias. Its just as possible that people so inclined ARE hearing coon when its not there. I don't know yet.

Zimmerman shouldn't have followed the kid closely. He should have from a distance and not engaged the kid. I have a distinct feeling the kid was aggressive himself at some point, but that was caused by Zimmerman.

If the police are being discriminatory then the feds have lots of options. If the law is too vague tighten it up, but make sure that's the case.

Obama, sharpton and the race profiteers and baiters need to SHUT UP!

[olevetonahill]

9OT7olbN5JI

Go to 2:21

I heard NOTHING at the 2;21 mark?

Never heard the word "Coon" at all and I listened

[sappstuf]

Well, that's different. If he was in a "whites only" area without his work papers, he should have expected to be shot.

Wait, are we talking about Florida in 2012 or South Africa in 1965?

Ol' George doesn't appear to be white to me...

http://www.loop21.com/sites/loop21c.your-majesty.com/files/George-Zimmerman-mugshot.jpg

[ictsooner7]

Obama: 'If I Had A Son, He Would Look Like Trayvon'

I dont see it

2615

I thought Strom Thurmond said that.

[ictsooner7]

Ol' George doesn't appear to be white to me...

http://www.loop21.com/sites/loop21c.your-majesty.com/files/George-Zimmerman-mugshot.jpg

but, he does appear to be crazy.............

[olevetonahill]

but, he does appear to be crazy.............

And you know the CRAZY dont ya.

[LiveLaughLove]

I'm on my phone so can't do the link, maybe someone can for me. Its an Orlando sentinal story linked at drudge. It says Zimmerman is Spanish speaking Hispanic with black family members. I only mention since race is an issue (although it actually has nothing to do with whether or not it was murder).

There is a young eyewitness that describes Zimmerman being on his back and being attacked. The kid said one or both yelled for help before the shot. Also the police said Zimmerman had blood on his face and grass on his back and head(I believe).

This is completely different than what has been related here so far. Now it appears possible that Zimmerman was defending himself. Should he have confronted the kid? No. Should the kid have attacked him? No.

I'm thinking manslaughter now with a plea. And the race baiters will make a lot of money, and Obama will score some political points. The police chief will lose his job. The Zimmermans will have to hide and relocate. And more laws limiting our freedoms will be enacted. Oh and did you hear? Rush Limbaugh is responsible.

[pphilfran]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story

The Sanford Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager, did not instigate the encounter but has received death threats and moved out of his home, his father told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

George Zimmerman, 28, has not been arrested, something that has put him and the Sanford Police Department at the center of a firestorm. Critics say Trayvon, who was visiting family from his home in Miami, was a victim of racial profiling.

Zimmerman's father, 64-year-old Robert Zimmerman of Lake Mary, delivered a one-page letter to the Sentinel on Thursday, saying that the depiction of his son in the media has been cruel and misleading.

George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, the statement says.

"He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever ...," the letter says. "The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth."

The letter does not provide details about what happened Feb. 26 on a walkway in the gated community where George Zimmerman lives and where Trayvon was visiting. But it does challenge one basic assumption of the family's lawyers: that Zimmerman's intent when he got out of his sport utility vehicle was to confront Trayvon after calling police to report a suspicious person.

"At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon," the letter said, "everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."

Police have released little information about what happened that night and no details about how Trayvon and Zimmerman came to be face to face.

No one disputes that Zimmerman called police from his SUV, then left it and encountered Trayvon on foot as the teenager returned from a 7-Eleven candy run.

Before an officer arrived, Trayvon and Zimmerman got into a fight, according to police, and witnesses heard one or both calling for help, and Zimmerman shot Trayvon once with a 9 mm handgun.

Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. Police found blood on his face and the back of his head as well as grass on the back of his shirt.

That jibes with what Cheryl Brown's teenage son witnessed while walking his dog that night. Thirteen-year-old Austin stepped out his front door and heard people fighting, he told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

"I heard screaming and crying for help," he said. "I heard, 'Help me.' "

It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground.

The boy said he is not sure who called for help. After a moment, his dog escaped, and he turned to catch it and a few seconds later heard a gunshot, he said.

"When I heard the shot, the screaming stopped," he said.

He then rushed inside and told his sister to call police.

In his letter, Robert Zimmerman wrote that what happened that night was "tragic … and very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family and the entire community have been forever changed."

George Zimmerman has not talked publicly about what happened, his father said, because that's the advice police gave him. Both Zimmerman families have moved out of their homes, at least temporarily, Robert Zimmerman said, because they've received death threats.

Police on Tuesday turned the case over to the State Attorney's Office, saying they did not have evidence to justify George Zimmerman's arrest on a charge of manslaughter.

Prosecutors will now likely spend several weeks studying the case before making a decision on whether to charge Zimmerman.

Sanford police Chief Bill Lee Jr. told the Sentinel on Thursday night that he has invited the U.S. Department of Justice and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to review the investigation.

"It's an open book," Lee said. "If they want to look at what we did and how we did it and what information we have, they're welcome to it."

The FDLE has received a letter from the State Attorney's Office asking agents to review the case, spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger said.

Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling."

Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.

More than 400 people gathered Wednesday at a Sanford church, where black community leaders and Baltimore evangelist Jamal Bryant again demanded that Zimmerman be arrested.

Some of Trayvon's family members are expected to be a news conference this morning called by Orlando attorney Natalie Jackson, who is representing the family.

Another rally is scheduled for Monday outside the Seminole County Courthouse. And a call has been issued for people to rally March 26 during the Sanford City Council meeting.

Staff writers Susan Jacobson and Jeff Weiner contributed to this report. [email protected] or 407-650-6394.



Statement of Robert Zimmerman, father of Neighborhood Watch volunteer:

“The tragic events of February 26 are very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family, and the entire community have been forever changed.

The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting are false and extremely misleading. Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas.

George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends. He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. One black neighbor recently interviewed said she knew everything in the media was untrue and that she would trust George with her life. Another black neighbor said that George was the only one, black or white, who came and welcomed her to the community, offering any assistance he could provide. Recently, I met two black children George invited to a social event. I asked where they met George. They responded that he was their mentor. They said George visited them routinely, took them places, helped them, and taught them things and that they really loved George. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth.

The events of February 26 reported in the media are also totally inaccurate. Out of respect for the on-going investigation, I will not discuss specifics. However, the media reports of the events are imaginary at best. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.

Our entire family is deeply sorry for the loss of Trayvon. We pray for the Martin family daily. We also pray that the community will grieve together and not be divided by more unwarranted hate.

The Zimmerman family will have no further contact with the media prior to the resolution of the investigation. It would be greatly appreciated if the media would respect our privacy.”

[LiveLaughLove]

Thanks kindly phil

[okie52]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story

The Sanford Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager, did not instigate the encounter but has received death threats and moved out of his home, his father told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

George Zimmerman, 28, has not been arrested, something that has put him and the Sanford Police Department at the center of a firestorm. Critics say Trayvon, who was visiting family from his home in Miami, was a victim of racial profiling.

Zimmerman's father, 64-year-old Robert Zimmerman of Lake Mary, delivered a one-page letter to the Sentinel on Thursday, saying that the depiction of his son in the media has been cruel and misleading.

George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, the statement says.

"He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever ...," the letter says. "The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth."

The letter does not provide details about what happened Feb. 26 on a walkway in the gated community where George Zimmerman lives and where Trayvon was visiting. But it does challenge one basic assumption of the family's lawyers: that Zimmerman's intent when he got out of his sport utility vehicle was to confront Trayvon after calling police to report a suspicious person.

"At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon," the letter said, "everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."

Police have released little information about what happened that night and no details about how Trayvon and Zimmerman came to be face to face.

No one disputes that Zimmerman called police from his SUV, then left it and encountered Trayvon on foot as the teenager returned from a 7-Eleven candy run.

Before an officer arrived, Trayvon and Zimmerman got into a fight, according to police, and witnesses heard one or both calling for help, and Zimmerman shot Trayvon once with a 9 mm handgun.

Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. Police found blood on his face and the back of his head as well as grass on the back of his shirt.

That jibes with what Cheryl Brown's teenage son witnessed while walking his dog that night. Thirteen-year-old Austin stepped out his front door and heard people fighting, he told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

"I heard screaming and crying for help," he said. "I heard, 'Help me.' "

It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground.

The boy said he is not sure who called for help. After a moment, his dog escaped, and he turned to catch it and a few seconds later heard a gunshot, he said.

"When I heard the shot, the screaming stopped," he said.

He then rushed inside and told his sister to call police.

In his letter, Robert Zimmerman wrote that what happened that night was "tragic … and very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family and the entire community have been forever changed."

George Zimmerman has not talked publicly about what happened, his father said, because that's the advice police gave him. Both Zimmerman families have moved out of their homes, at least temporarily, Robert Zimmerman said, because they've received death threats.

Police on Tuesday turned the case over to the State Attorney's Office, saying they did not have evidence to justify George Zimmerman's arrest on a charge of manslaughter.

Prosecutors will now likely spend several weeks studying the case before making a decision on whether to charge Zimmerman.

Sanford police Chief Bill Lee Jr. told the Sentinel on Thursday night that he has invited the U.S. Department of Justice and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to review the investigation.

"It's an open book," Lee said. "If they want to look at what we did and how we did it and what information we have, they're welcome to it."

The FDLE has received a letter from the State Attorney's Office asking agents to review the case, spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger said.

Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling."

Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.

More than 400 people gathered Wednesday at a Sanford church, where black community leaders and Baltimore evangelist Jamal Bryant again demanded that Zimmerman be arrested.

Some of Trayvon's family members are expected to be a news conference this morning called by Orlando attorney Natalie Jackson, who is representing the family.

Another rally is scheduled for Monday outside the Seminole County Courthouse. And a call has been issued for people to rally March 26 during the Sanford City Council meeting.

Staff writers Susan Jacobson and Jeff Weiner contributed to this report. [email protected] or 407-650-6394.



Statement of Robert Zimmerman, father of Neighborhood Watch volunteer:

“The tragic events of February 26 are very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family, and the entire community have been forever changed.

The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting are false and extremely misleading. Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas.

George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends. He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. One black neighbor recently interviewed said she knew everything in the media was untrue and that she would trust George with her life. Another black neighbor said that George was the only one, black or white, who came and welcomed her to the community, offering any assistance he could provide. Recently, I met two black children George invited to a social event. I asked where they met George. They responded that he was their mentor. They said George visited them routinely, took them places, helped them, and taught them things and that they really loved George. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth.

The events of February 26 reported in the media are also totally inaccurate. Out of respect for the on-going investigation, I will not discuss specifics. However, the media reports of the events are imaginary at best. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.

Our entire family is deeply sorry for the loss of Trayvon. We pray for the Martin family daily. We also pray that the community will grieve together and not be divided by more unwarranted hate.

The Zimmerman family will have no further contact with the media prior to the resolution of the investigation. It would be greatly appreciated if the media would respect our privacy.”

This article sure doesn't square with many opinions on this board.

[pphilfran]

Thanks kindly phil

Anytime...

[Midtowner]

This article sure doesn't square with many opinions on this board.

It doesn't really square with Zimmerman's actions that night either.

[olevetonahill]

This article sure doesn't square with many opinions on this board.

Its called a "Rush to Judgement"

[okie52]

It doesn't really square with Zimmerman's actions that night either.

How so?

[pphilfran]

It doesn't really square with Zimmerman's actions that night either.

Just more wood for the fire...

[Curly Bill]

This article sure doesn't square with many opinions on this board.

You mean the expected knee-jerk liberal cries of racism and injustice and so on?

[okie52]

Its called a "Rush to Judgement"

It has been amazing for all of these "due process" standard bearers that are currently supporting the lynch mob.

[okie52]

You mean the expected knee-jerk liberal cries of racism and injustice and so on?

Something like that. Zimmerman may be guilty of everything they "think" he is guilty of doing...but so far I haven't seen any facts that support that view.

[Curly Bill]

Something like that. Zimmerman may be guilty of everything they "think" he is guilty of doing...but so far I haven't seen any facts that support that view.

Facts! Pfffft, what are those? Peeps have their agendas to follow!

[jkjsooner]

I heard NOTHING at the 2;21 mark?

Never heard the word "Coon" at all and I listened

It seemed pretty clear to me.

[yermom]

How so?


"At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon," the letter said, "everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."

you know, except when he was on the phone with 911 being recorded

[okie52]

Facts! Pfffft, what are those? Peeps have their agendas to follow!

I don't know but we have 8 pages of posts on what a lot of people are sure that happened.

[okie52]

you know, except when he was on the phone with 911 being recorded

No, I don't know. I listened to the recording. What did I miss that incriminates Zimmerman?

[okie52]

It seemed pretty clear to me.

It did...was it in code?

Maybe a transcriptionist will ultimately provide the clear cut details that have escaped so many.

[ictsooner7]

And you know the CRAZY dont ya.

the more i'm on here the more I'm learning it.

[StoopTroup]

I can understand this whole idea of getting the folks who feel this was a racist act by Zimmerman out of the way as if they can't prove it was racially modivated, it would seem that the Feds don't have any business getting involved? It has to be racially modivated in order for it to be Federally Investigated is why you are seeing so many folks outside Florida commenting on it's laws.

That said, Oklahoma's Law sounds much different than Florida's. For those that haven't taken the Concealed Carry Classes or at least Studied them, I would if I were you as it's my understanding that ignorance of the law isn't much of an excuse and if you ever go stalking a person after calling 911 and you end up killing them after being told not to follow them or retreat....you are probably going to need a bunch of candle burners outside of the place they give you your Death by Injection Shot or a last minute call from Mary Fallin to save your life so that you can enjoy the prison food you'll be eating for the rest of your life. If you are lucky you cell mate might be the Pharmacist in OKC and you'll at least have someone that thinks like you do as a cell mate for the rest of your life.

I've heard the 911 tape and I could clearly hear Zimmerman say these guys always get away with this stuff. Add to the fact that he told the 911 operator the kid was black and wearing a hoodie in the rain and looking suspicious and told not to follow the kid...it's pretty clear to me that Zimmerman took it upon himself to go from Neighborhood Watch Person to Police Officer tracking down the kid he thought was suspicious.

Other things that do bother me are that the Media isn't helping this case when they show pictures of this kid that are 5 years old. Some folks who would seem to support Florida's Law and throw out any idea that a Person of Mexican, Cuban or Latin decent can't be a racist, are empowered to call foul on the many folks who feel that Racism was involved. Some say that once Zimmerman did confront the kid while stalking him even though the 911 Dispatcher told him not to, he found that this kid he felt was getting away with something was around a foot taller than him and over 200 lbs and an athletic football player.

Since Zimmerman was packing a gun he obviously didn't feel threatened until he got to close to this kid and suddenly things turned against him. Maybe listening to the 911 Operator would have been a good idea? Taking some kid's life after stalking him and then having to not only live with it on your conscience and also have America split on whether you acted correctly or incorrectly? Not a spot I'd want to put myself in.

At the end of this, I guess we will see how this turns out but if there is anything that comes from it that is positive, I hope it's that this tragedy informs people so that people who walk the streets unarmed don't get slauthered by folks who have guns on them that are tracking them. If you are told the police are on the way, let them handle it. If you are walking in a place folks don't know who you are, when approached, don't act like you are armed. You wouldn't attack a police officer so why attack a neighborhood watch person?

It seems both these idiots have ruined each others lives for absolutely no reason. One is deaf
d and the other has to live with it. Pretty damn sad.

[jkjsooner]

Facts! Pfffft, what are those? Peeps have their agendas to follow!

Okay, let's go back to what we know from the 911 call:


George Zimmerman followed Martin.
At one point Martin was running away from Zimmerman.
Martin was unarmed.



The assertion from the father that Zimmerman did not follow Martin is contradicted by Martin's own words on the 911 tape.

There are other accounts that conflict with the account given in that article.


Martin must have been pretty slick - baiting Zimmerman into following him (even while he ran away from Zimmerman) so that he could untimately spring the trap with his bag of Skittles.

[Curly Bill]

Okay, let's go back to what we know from the 911 call:

George Zimmerman followed Martin.
At one point Martin was running away from Zimmerman.
Martin was unarmed.


The assertion from the father that Zimmerman did not follow Martin is contradicted by Martin's own words on the 911 tape.

There are other accounts that conflict with the account given in that article.


Martin must have been pretty slick - baiting Zimmerman into following him (even while he ran away from Zimmerman) so that he could untimately spring the trap with his bag of Skittles.

Glad you've got it all figured out. I guess you'll be heading on down to Florida and staightening this whole mess out? See ya when ya get back.

[jkjsooner]

It seems both these idiots have ruined each others lives for absolutely no reason. One is deaf
d and the other has to live with it. Pretty damn sad.

Yeah, that Trayvon Martin is such an idiot. He should have never gone to the store to buy Skittles.

I forgot that we teach our kids to always obey that stranger who has been following you around the neighborhood. Wait, that isn't what we teach our kids?

I sure hope Trayvon gets his hearing back.

[jkjsooner]

Glad you've got it all figured out. I guess you'll be heading on down to Florida and staightening this whole mess out? See ya when ya get back.

Okay, you tell me then. Considering the above facts, how can you spin it so that it was a legitimate case of self defense?

Clearly Martin wanted to get away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman's owns word indicate that.

If Martin did in fact attack Zimmerman, you can only conclude that he did so out of fear for his own life. You can't really jive the fact that he ran from Zimmerman with any other conclusion.

The funny thing is that had Martin been armed he would have had plenty of justification under Florida law to kill Zimmerman.

[okie52]

Okay, you tell me then. Considering the above facts, how can you spin it so that it was a legitimate case of self defense?

Well lets see...a neighborhood watch captain follows a stranger in his neighborhood. The stranger doesn't like being followed and attacks the neighborhood watch captain.
The Neighborhood watch captain defends himself and shoots the stranger.

How about that, Sherlock?

Surely, ballistics will be able to tell about the range of the gun firing, powder spray, etc... to either corroborate or dispel Zimmermans account.

[Curly Bill]

Okay, you tell me then. Considering the above facts, how can you spin it so that it was a legitimate case of self defense?

Clearly Martin wanted to get away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman's owns word indicate that.

If Martin did in fact attack Zimmerman, you can only conclude that he did so out of fear for his own life. You can't really jive the fact that he ran from Zimmerman with any other conclusion.

The funny thing is that had Martin been armed he would have had plenty of justification under Florida law to kill Zimmerman.

But see, there ya go: I'm not trying spin it at all. I wasn't there, and quite a bit of the so-called facts seem to be in dispute, so rather than a rush to judgement Ima wait and see what happens.

[KABOOKIE]

Okay, you tell me then. Considering the above facts, how can you spin it so that it was a legitimate case of self defense?

Clearly Martin wanted to get away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman's owns word indicate that.

If Martin did in fact attack Zimmerman, you can only conclude that he did so out of fear for his own life. You can't really jive the fact that he ran from Zimmerman with any other conclusion.

The funny thing is that had Martin been armed he would have had plenty of justification under Florida law to kill Zimmerman.

Clearly you've fallen for the media hype. :rolleyes:

Don't start beating people up who ask a question and you won't get shot. Plain and simple.

[Midtowner]

The funny thing is that had Martin been armed he would have had plenty of justification under Florida law to kill Zimmerman.

Without question. Anytime a law exists which could place two individuals encountering one another in a position where they are both legally allowed to kill the other is a bad law. Period.

Under this law, I guess dueling, i.e., pistols and ten paces would be legit.

[jkjsooner]

But see, there ya go: I'm not trying spin it at all. I wasn't there, and quite a bit of the so-called facts seem to be in dispute, so rather than a rush to judgement Ima wait and see what happens.

I said "the above facts" which was in reference to my previous post. These are not in dispute. The 911 call and Zimmerman's own words attest to them.

Martin was not armed.
Zimmerman followed Martin.
Martin ran from Zimmerman.

Zimmerman stated the second and third fact in his call. The first fact has never been disputed and it would have been obvious to the police had Martin been armed.

[olevetonahill]

It seemed pretty clear to me.

There were NO words spoken at the 2;21 mark when I listened. Care to Isolate it?
Seriously I heard NOTHING

[jkjsooner]

Well lets see...a neighborhood watch captain follows a stranger in his neighborhood. The stranger doesn't like being followed and attacks the neighborhood watch captain.
The Neighborhood watch captain defends himself and shoots the stranger.

How about that, Sherlock?

But Martin was running from Zimmerman at some point. At the point where they came face to face it seems that any action on Martin's side (whether it be because he felt threatened or simply pissed off) would be justified.

If you follow someone around a neighborhood like that you're asking for trouble unless you are a uniformed police officer.


Surely, ballistics will be able to tell about the range of the gun firing, powder spray, etc... to either corroborate or dispel Zimmermans account.

I don't think there's a question here. I'm pretty sure it has been established that the firing was at close range.

[jkjsooner]

There were NO words spoken at the 2;21 mark when I listened. Care to Isolate it?
Seriously I heard NOTHING

I don't have the savvy to isolate it. It's at 2:21. He muttered it so it was not in his normal voice but it seemed very clear to me.

[olevetonahill]

I don't have the savvy to isolate it. It's at 2:21. He muttered it so it was not in his normal voice but it seemed very clear to me.

Im not doubting you hear something
Just sayin I dont hear a dayum thing

[StoopTroup]

It has been amazing for all of these "due process" standard bearers that are currently supporting the lynch mob.

I think that the reason you see that is that Florida Law is probably what's really on trial here?

Even many folks who seemed to want to square off with other posters on this board seem to be at least informing themselves as more and more information comes out.

If you like Florida's Laws vs say the State you live in, then I can see where agendas will come in to play very easily. If you say like or understand your State's Laws and think they are flawless then I can see folks trying to protect the law they have and might even feel should be the Law in every US State. Thus...another agenda.

Then there are folks that may even just look at this mess and ask, "Just what were the real details? What could have been done differently to give the Police time to get to the scene and sort this out before there was bloodshed?"

Me? I kind of lean towards what I as a Concealed Carry Person need to do to avoid having to kill someone and still be able to help as a Neighborhood Watch Person? I know many folks solution is to move away from crime but then those same folks, many of them seem to be armed to the teeth even though they live in Rural areas, so it makes me laugh a bit when they say that is the answer. We all know that Sam Colt changed the way folks live in America and that many of us are going to defend ourselves whether we live in Cities or a Cave 500 miles from your nearest neighbor. It's just a different type of Neighborhood Watch.

We have had guns in America, before it became a Country and had it not been that way...it probably wouldn't be the U.S.A. right now or at the very least it would have taken us longer to get armed up enough to have fought for Independance and made this Country the 13 States that led to the 50 we have now.

We need guns in this Country and you'd think that we might have come around with Laws that were a bit more consistant than having 50 States still arguing over them. It's pretty crazy to call yourself the Greatest Country in the World when you are still arguing over the Constitution over 200 years after making it a right of the people.

[olevetonahill]

I don't have the savvy to isolate it. It's at 2:21. He muttered it so it was not in his normal voice but it seemed very clear to me.

Im sorry, I just listened 3 more times, All I hear at that point is some wind noise

[okie52]

But Martin was running from Zimmerman at some point. At the point where they came face to face it seems that any action on Martin's side (whether it be because he felt threatened or simply pissed off) would be justified.

If you follow someone around a neighborhood like that you're asking for trouble unless you are a uniformed police officer.



I don't think there's a question here. I'm pretty sure it has been established that the firing was at close range.

If you attack someone just because he is following you then you are guilty of assault...Zimmerman may have had a Barney fife mentality for all I know but that doesn't justify an assault on him unless Zimmerman had physically attacked the stranger.

Did Zimmerman overplay his hand by continuing to follow Martin...sounds like it since 911 told him to back off. But that doesn't justify him being assaulted by Martin...if that is what happened because for all we know Zimmerman could have assaulted Martin and then killed him...we just don't know the facts well enough until the police and other authorities release their information.

[StoopTroup]

Without question. Anytime a law exists which could place two individuals encountering one another in a position where they are both legally allowed to kill the other is a bad law. Period.

Under this law, I guess dueling, i.e., pistols and ten paces would be legit.

Anyone arguing with you about this is why things are so screwed up. These laws being complicated to the point that some in this Country walk free because they can afford decent Counsel vs a Law like Oklahoma's that does seem to try and reduce the "Quick Draw McGraw" mentality of Drunks in a Saloon settling their disputes outside the Bar where less folks are bound to be hurt would seem to be headed in the right direction IMO.

The Days where say you were brought to justice in front of a Hanging Judge that might clear a large Land Owner vs a guy that was just ridi g through town to get himself a bag of Skittles and a Sasparillo seem to be alive and well in Florida. :D

[okie52]

I think that the reason you see that is that Florida Law is probably what's really on trial here?

Even many folks who seemed to want to square off with other posters on this board seem to be at least informing themselves as more and more information comes out.

If you like Florida's Laws vs say the State you live in, then I can see where agendas will come in to play very easily. If you say like or understand your State's Laws and think they are flawless then I can see folks trying to protect the law they have and might even feel should be the Law in every US State. Thus...another agenda.

Then there are folks that may even just look at this mess and ask, "Just what were the real details? What could have been done differently to give the Police time to get to the scene and sort this out before there was bloodshed?"

Me? I kind of lean towards what I as a Concealed Carry Person need to do to avoid having to kill someone and still be able to help as a Neighborhood Watch Person? I know many folks solution is to move away from crime but then those same folks, many of them seem to be armed to the teeth even though they live in Rural areas, so it makes me laugh a bit when they say that is the answer. We all know that Sam Colt changed the way folks live in America and that many of us are going to defend ourselves whether we live in Cities or a Cave 500 miles from your nearest neighbor. It's just a different type of Neighborhood Watch.

We have had guns in America, before it became a Country and had it not been that way...it probably wouldn't be the U.S.A. right now or at the very least it would have taken us longer to get armed up enough to have fought for Independance and made this Country the 13 States that led to the 50 we have now.

We need guns in this Country and you'd think that we might have come around with Laws that were a bit more consistant than having 50 States still arguing over them. It's pretty crazy to call yourself the Greatest Country in the World when you are still arguing over the Constitution over 200 years after making it a right of the people.

I lean toward open carry...I am pretty sure Martin would not have attacked Zimmerman (if thats what happened) had he seen his gun holtered on his hip.

[cleller]

Im sorry, I just listened 3 more times, All I hear at that point is some wind noise

Unintelligible to me, too. Younger people can actually hear things that older folks cannot, no matter how hard they try. So after jkjsooner gets out of school today, he can bring his ipad by your room at "the home", and go over it.

[OULenexaman]

a fart?

[StoopTroup]

I don't have the savvy to isolate it. It's at 2:21. He muttered it so it was not in his normal voice but it seemed very clear to me.

I hear what you think is said there but I also understand that things we hear today can be tweaked easily via technology. If that's what you are using as evidence, fine but IMO, it's pretty weak unless the Feds and Florida Officials agree that it warrants being admissible. Until then, I think you are leaning towards a conspiracy and I'm not to sure which sides conspiracy.

[olevetonahill]

The dude speaks Plane as hell thru out the recording then Yall hear "****in Coon" in that ?

OK

[StoopTroup]

I lean toward open carry...I am pretty sure Martin would not have attacked Zimmerman (if thats what happened) had he seen his gun holtered on his hip.
I like the Concealed Carry but I can live with either as long as they don't legislate that I can't have a Concealed Weapon on me as well as an open carry weapon.

[jkjsooner]

Unintelligible to me, too. Younger people can actually hear things that older folks cannot, no matter how hard they try. So after jkjsooner gets out of school today, he can bring his ipad by your room at "the home", and go over it.

I am not in school and I would bet every one of you guys have better hearing than I have. I have almost no hearing in my left ear.

[Curly Bill]

Having studied all the evidence and taken the "facts" into account...I'm pretty sure the shot was fired from the grassy knoll.

[ictsooner7]

Having studied all the evidence and taken the "facts" into account...I'm pretty sure the shot was fired from the grassy knoll.

by one russian, one mob hit man and one cia agent

[Ike]

Just listened to one 911 recording for the incident where you hear someone clearly yelling for help (many times) just before the gunshot. I am having a hard time believing that an armed man in an altercation would yell for help like that. It's difficult for me to conclude that the voice yelling for help belongs to anyone but Trayvon Martin...although I have heard it reported elsewhere that the police were claiming it was Zimmerman that was yelling.

While it's clear all of the neighbors were too scared to go outside and help, it sure would be nice if one or more had at least looked out the window.

[rock on sooner]

The dude speaks Plane as hell thru out the recording then Yall hear "****in Coon" in that ?

OK

Vet, the 911 tape was played on CNN and I listened very closely, and I'm with you,
I couldn't make out what was said, even though Anderson Cooper tried to prompt
everyone to hear the offensive statement. It's gonna take a LOT of techie stuff to
clean that up!

[jkjsooner]

The dude speaks Plane as hell thru out the recording then Yall hear "****in Coon" in that ?

OK

You've never muttered a word while on the phone? You've never been talking to a girl and muttered "bitch" in a way that she may hear you but you can also deny it?

There's a reason the term exists.

mut·ter/ˈmətər/
Verb:
Say something in a low or barely audible voice, esp. in dissatisfaction or

[olevetonahill]

Just listened to one 911 recording for the incident where you hear someone clearly yelling for help (many times) just before the gunshot. I am having a hard time believing that an armed man in an altercation would yell for help like that. It's difficult for me to conclude that the voice yelling for help belongs to anyone but Trayvon Martin...although I have heard it reported elsewhere that the police were claiming it was Zimmerman that was yelling.

While it's clear all of the neighbors were too scared to go outside and help, it sure would be nice if one or more had at least looked out the window.
Ike, Do you have a Link for that recording?

[KABOOKIE]

Where or not he said coon is going to be just like obama’s birth certificate. Those who don’t want to think or believe he said it will never hear it. It wouldn’t matter how much evidence you have, they just won’t want to believe it.

Likewise just like Bush was supposedly AWOL despite the overwhelming evidence against it (even manufactured) some people just want to believe it to fit their agenda. So, whether he said it or not, YOU believe it because the media tells you so.

[olevetonahill]

You've never muttered a word while on the phone? You've never been talking to a girl and muttered "bitch" in a way that she may hear you but you can also deny it?

There's a reason the term exists.

mut·ter/ˈmətər/
Verb:
Say something in a low or barely audible voice, esp. in dissatisfaction or

Stretch much?

[jkjsooner]

I hear what you think is said there but I also understand that things we hear today can be tweaked easily via technology.

That was supposedly an unedited version. You can find edited versions where they remove the lower frequency range to make it more clear. If you want to attack the validity of those then fine but they're simply passing it through a high pass filter.

I personally don't feel that saying something like "f'in coon" makes it a hate crime. Just because you are a racist doesn't mean that that is your motivation for killing someone.

If it is true that that version is unedited, there is no doubt in my mind that he did say that. The funny thing is that a ton of people think he said "f'ing punk" even though the second part sounds nothing at all like "punk".

[Ike]

Ike, Do you have a Link for that recording?

3rd audio file in the list.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

[sappstuf]

You've never muttered a word while on the phone? You've never been talking to a girl and muttered "bitch" in a way that she may hear you but you can also deny it?

There's a reason the term exists.

mut·ter/ˈmətər/
Verb:
Say something in a low or barely audible voice, esp. in dissatisfaction or

I see the focus of the investigation has changed...

Vet, can you confirm your location the evening of the shooting?

[jkjsooner]

Stretch much?

You're the one who claimed that it would make no sense for him to say something in a less audible manner than everything else he said. I'm just pointing out that it's a common practice and there is an often used word for just that.

How is pointing that out a stretch?

[olevetonahill]

3rd audio file in the list.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

Thanks Bro. Dont have time to listen now will later this evening



I see the focus of the investigation has changed...

Vet, can you confirm your location the evening of the shooting?

I have 2 dogs one Cat and a Bird that will confirm I was right here Durnk

[olevetonahill]

You're the one who claimed that it would make no sense for him to say something in a less audible manner than everything else he said. I'm just pointing out that it's a common practice and there is an often used word for just that.

How is pointing that out a stretch?

Yer stretching again, I never said it made "NO SENSE " I merely pointed out the obvious

[sappstuf]

I have 2 dogs one Cat and a Bird that will confirm I was right here Durnk

I tried interviewing them.. One of the barks sounded suspiciously like "honky"..

[jkjsooner]

Yer stretching again, I never said it made "NO SENSE " I merely pointed out the obvious

That's bullcrap. You were doing more than just making a statement. If you were just pointing out a statement of fact and not implying anything else it would have been a completely pointless comment.


The dude speaks Plane as hell thru out the recording then Yall hear "****in Coon" in that ?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I'm still waiting for a Bob Dylan joke.

[olevetonahill]

I tried interviewing them.. One of the barks sounded suspiciously like "honky"..
Prolly that Bitch weenie. you know how they are

[olevetonahill]

That's bullcrap. You were doing more than just making a statement. If you were just pointing out a statement of fact and not implying anything else it would have been a completely pointless comment.

**** off dip ****. I usually say exactly what I mean.
Unless Im baitin my hooks

[jkjsooner]

**** off dip ****. I usually say exactly what I mean.
Unless Im baitin my hooks

Fine. You said something that sure as heck seemed to be casting doubt that someone could speak plainly one minute while muttering something the next. I believe most would interpret your statement that way.


The dude speaks Plane as hell thru out the recording then Yall hear "****in Coon" in that ?

I'll just have to say that I misunderstood what you meant by that and that I'm completely confused by the message you were trying to express.

[Turd_Ferguson]

This thread would prolly be at 22 pages by now had it been a white guy that shot the kid...or maybe half that if it was a white kid that got shot...

[Turd_Ferguson]

I'll just have to say that I misunderstood what you meant by that and that I'm completely confused by the message you were trying to express.You could apply this to most of your reply post...

[StoopTroup]

This thread would prolly be at 22 pages by now had it been a white guy that shot the kid...or maybe half that if it was a white kid that got shot...

I actually think there might not be a thread at all if this was about a White Guy shooting a White Kid.

The thing is this has gone from a White Guy to a Mexican Guy shooting and Stalking an unarmed Black Kid to a Mexican Guy with a gun following a Black Kid until the Black Kid who didn't Know the Mexican Guy had a gun. It seems that Florida is OK with Mexican's Killing unarmed Black Kids.

I'm guessing that if this becomes the Norm in Florida that many Universities are going to have some great recruiting classes in the years to come from Parents that are just trying to save their 4.2 in the 40 kids with SEC Speed and Hands like a Venus Fly Trap.

[LiveLaughLove]

Where do you get that Florida is OK with this?

Because the Guy hasn't been convicted already (except by some of our posters)?

Florida has put a special prosecutor on it. That seems reasonable. By Obama stepping in the Guy is now almost assured to be convicted of something. Don't think Obama doesn't know that he carries weight by speaking to this. He knows and shame on him for interjecting himself in to it.

The Guy will get jailtime no doubt and probably rightfully so. We will never know for sure now however, thanks to the racial politics.

[olevetonahill]

Fine. You said something that sure as heck seemed to be casting doubt that someone could speak plainly one minute while muttering something the next. I believe most would interpret your statement that way.



I'll just have to say that I misunderstood what you meant by that and that I'm completely confused by the message you were trying to express.

Ill say it again real slow
The dude speaks Plane as hell thru out the recording then Yall hear "****in Coon" in that ?

now See Im not inferring anything except the Dude was talking plane as hell. then there is NOTHING at the 2:21

[hawaii 5-0]

It was right after the part where he clearly says, "Look at that little monkey run."


5-0

[olevetonahill]

It was right after the part where he clearly says, "Look at that little monkey run."


5-0

Yer just making **** up.

[hawaii 5-0]

Yer just making **** up.


Others might call it 'fishin'.


5-0

[olevetonahill]

Others might call it 'fishin'.


5-0

Only Libs Bite tho:congratulatory:

[hawaii 5-0]

Only Libs Bite tho:congratulatory:


Turd's been on my line many times.

I wouldn't take him for a Lib.

I've been wrong.

5-0

[olevetonahill]

Turd's been on my line many times.

I wouldn't take him for a Lib.

I've been wrong.

5-0
Hell hes just been yankin yer Bobber

[Turd_Ferguson]

Turd's been on my line many times.

I wouldn't take him for a Lib.

I've been wrong.

5-0Don't nobody want none of your stink bait...

[cccasooner2]

A good law if you're the one doing the shooting, bad law if you're receiving the bullet.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

GeraldoRivera Justice will come to Zimmerman, but ... Parents Alert: hoodies can get your kid killed
1 day ago · reply · retweet · favorite

[SanJoaquinSooner]

GeraldoRivera Justice will come to Zimmerman, but ... Parents Alert: hoodies can get your kid killed
1 day ago · reply · retweet · favorite


Well Geraldo, if you're talking about legal justice, I'm not so sure.. The homocide was probably unjustified, but "probably" doesn't usually get you a conviction.

[hawaii 5-0]

When Geraldo is involved........Geraldo IS the story.

Much like Al Sharpton and Gloria AhWhatzhername.


5-0

[LiveLaughLove]

Since the New Black Panther Party has put a hit out on Zimmerman, I suppose the feds will be arresting them for solicitation of murder as they would any other criminal that offers money for murder.

I'm sure Eric Holder is signing the indictments as we speak to have them arrested.

Still I won't hold my breath.

And the unofficial list of people that should shut up is now: Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Obama, Allen West (first thing he's done that really ticks me off), and Jeb Bush.

I'm less and less convinced Zimmerman is guilty of anything beyond maybe manslaughter. There are now two witnesses that say he was getting beaten by Martin (don't you love how the media is only showing pictures of Martin at around 12 years old, no bias there).

[hawaii 5-0]

Martin was using a bag of Skittles and beating a stranger with a gun?

My guess is that it was Martin was the one fearing for his life and was doing whatever it took to save himself from an armed assailant.

Apparently it wasn't enough.


5-0

[hawaii 5-0]

[QUOTE=LiveLaughLove;3464636

And the unofficial list of people that should shut up is now: Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Obama, Allen West (first thing he's done that really ticks me off), and Jeb Bush.

[/QUOTE]


How convenient you left off Geraldo and Sean Hannity who have both stepped in (it).

5-0

[Turd_Ferguson]

My guess


5-0It ain't worth a ****...

[Turd_Ferguson]

How convenient you left off Geraldo and Sean Hannity who have both stepped in (it).

5-0I guess you don't see the difference between the ones you listed and the ones LLL listed?

[hawaii 5-0]

Fishy back for another nibble?


5-0

[Turd_Ferguson]

Fishy back for another nibble?


5-0Did somebody say you were a good troll...or are you just spew'n more ignernt ****?

[LiveLaughLove]

How convenient you left off Geraldo and Sean Hannity who have both stepped in (it).

5-0

Wow, no credit for putting Republicans on the list, just a slam for not putting a commentator and a semi-reporter on there, huh.

Well lets see, the people I listed are political people. Yes Hannity is a political pundit but that means squat as far as influence goes on something like this, but feel free to put him on your list or add him to mine. I didn't say it was a comprehensive be-all-end-all list.

As for Martin, it's very possible and in fact probable, that Zimmerman was not brandishing the gun at all. I seriously doubt the kid would have attacked him had he seen a gun in Zimmerman's hand or had Zimmerman announced he had one. Its very possible that Zimmerman didn't pull the gun until he was getting the beat down.

I still think Zimmerman is at fault for following too closely, but I am way less inclined to believe that it was racially motivated or that Zimmerman wanted to shoot the kid as has been implied all over the place. I also don't think the police acted in a racist way by not arresting Zimmerman right away given the witness testimony and the physical evidence they saw that night.

I wish Zimmerman would have not followed the kid too closely, and would have told him or shown him that he had a gun. Any of those, and the kid is still alive and Zimmerman isn't in hiding with a bounty on his head.

How convenient that you chose not to comment on the NBPP's bounty. Do you think they are committing a crime? Should Holder go after them? Will he?

[olevetonahill]

Fishy back for another nibble?


5-0


I love it when they imitate me .:playful:

[pphilfran]

Florida Governor Scott talking about the case this morning...

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/25/exp-sotu-gov-rick-scott-trayvon-martin.cnn

[yermom]

I wish Zimmerman would have not followed the kid too closely, and would have told him or shown him that he had a gun. Any of those, and the kid is still alive and Zimmerman isn't in hiding with a bounty on his head.


see, here is where it breaks down.

the philosophy i have always heard when you carry is not to pull your gun until you are ready to use it.

if you show your gun to someone not ready to shoot them, you are escalating to that point.

on the other hand, Zimmerman seems to have forgotten that he wasn't a cop. he's not supposed to apprehend anyone as far as i know.

the other thing about carrying a gun is that it's not really a good idea to start a fight while carrying one. if you lose, they have your gun. again, things escalate quickly at that point.

[pphilfran]

see, here is where it breaks down.

the philosophy i have always heard when you carry is not to pull your gun until you are ready to use it.

if you show your gun to someone not ready to shoot them, you are escalating to that point.

on the other hand, Zimmerman seems to have forgotten that he wasn't a cop. he's not supposed to apprehend anyone as far as i know.

the other thing about carrying a gun is that it's not really a good idea to start a fight while carrying one. if you lose, they have your gun. again, things escalate quickly at that point.

We do not know if he tried to apprehend the kid....we do not know if he pulled the gun prior to the confrontation...we do not know who started the confrontation...

[olevetonahill]

We do not know if he tried to apprehend the kid....we do not know if he pulled the gun prior to the confrontation...we do not know who started the confrontation...
Precisely. There is so much that "WE" dont know at this point.
The Prez, the Governor, The Man down the Street and Geraldo all need to step back and let the Investigation run its course.

[yermom]

i'm more commenting on what LLL said about showing him the gun

i'm willing to say that i think Zimmerman was not acting prudently though after ignoring the 911 operator about following the kid. he got a description and location of someone and then kept following him. if he wasn't so close, no altercation would have happened.

maybe not legally, but it seems to me, someone carrying a gun would want to avoid such encounters unless they want to end up shooting someone. he's not a cop.

[olevetonahill]

i'm more commenting on what LLL said about showing him the gun

i'm willing to say that i think Zimmerman was not acting prudently though after ignoring the 911 operator about following the kid. he got a description and location of someone and then kept following him. if he wasn't so close, no altercation would have happened.

maybe not legally, but it seems to me, someone carrying a gun would want to avoid such encounters unless they want to end up shooting someone. he's not a cop.
You make some valid points Bro

Maybe Z was just trying to keep him in sight and the Kid got all Confrontaional. We just dont Know at this point how much of it of went down

[pphilfran]

You make some valid points Bro

Maybe Z was just trying to keep him in sight and the Kid got all Confrontaional. We just dont Know at this point how much of it of went downPrecisely.

[LiveLaughLove]

see, here is where it breaks down.

the philosophy i have always heard when you carry is not to pull your gun until you are ready to use it.

if you show your gun to someone not ready to shoot them, you are escalating to that point.

on the other hand, Zimmerman seems to have forgotten that he wasn't a cop. he's not supposed to apprehend anyone as far as i know.

the other thing about carrying a gun is that it's not really a good idea to start a fight while carrying one. if you lose, they have your gun. again, things escalate quickly at that point.

I agree somewhat, but I believe stating he was carrying or just showing it would have discouraged Martin from attacking. I've always heard don't point the gun unless you are prepared to use it, but I must say, I am not licensed in carry conceal so not an expert.

I blame Zimmerman for Martins death. I think he should be punished for it. I don't see ANY racism as yet. I don't see ANY cover up by the police as yet. That could change if more actual evidence comes to light, and not race baiters rhetoric.

I don't know the laws enough to know if they need changing or modifying or eliminating. I like having a "make my day" law overall, because self defense is a fundamental right as far as i am concerned (not speaking to this case here, just overall).

[LiveLaughLove]

Precisely. There is so much that "WE" dont know at this point.
The Prez, the Governor, The Man down the Street and Geraldo all need to step back and let the Investigation run its course.

Exactly my point from day one. rush to judgement was almost immediate. He was a white racist southerner that shot this kid in cold blood for no reason and the white racist southerner police let him get away with it.

Well, that's not exactly appearing to be the case. They couldn't even get the shooters race correct.

As a side note, the media seems to think Martin was an 11-12 year old from the pictures they show and not a 17 year old football player. This doesn't matter in the case itself, but it's very interesting to see the media manipulate a story to push it toward their desired outcome in public opinion.

[cccasooner2]

How convenient that you chose not to comment on the NBPP's bounty. Do you think they are committing a crime? Should Holder go after them? Will he?

As far as you ofays are concerned, isn't that just heresay right now?

[hawaii 5-0]

Precisely. There is so much that "WE" dont know at this point.
The Prez, the Governor, The Man down the Street and Geraldo all need to step back and let the Investigation run its course.


I totally agree. Hopefully the truth will come out.

But we, as Bored Posters, are duty bound to speculate on what happened until the cows come home.

Fer instance, on the 911 call, what does Zimmerman mean when he says, "They always get away" ?????


5-0

[hawaii 5-0]

How convenient that you chose not to comment on the NBPP's bounty. Do you think they are committing a crime? Should Holder go after them? Will he?



I just read about the Black Panther's bounty. The Coconut Wireless out here is a little slow sometimes.

As I'm not a spokesperson for that organization I can't answer for them.

As a Bored Poster I can say it's a rediculous political raciast move to stir up hatred. I believe if Zimmerman was to ever be incarcerated there would always be a bounty on his head behind bars. He's notorious now and some brotha would get his 15 minutes by offing Zimmerman.


I saw on the news this morning, some analyist said generally speaking, that there is hatred of whites toward blacks, hispanics toward blacks, asians toward blacks and even a third of blacks show hatred toward other blacks.

Zimmerman doesn't have to be white to be a hater.

5-0

[AlboSooner]

As new evidence keeps surfacing, it seems that the make my day law was not even used in the case. It seems as of now that Zimmerman acted outside the provisions of the law. I turn back to that general point I made: never judge a law, or philosophy based on abuses made in its name. It is the height of irrationality to do so. A law's merit is not based on its misapplication.

[olevetonahill]

As new evidence keeps surfacing, it seems that the make my day law was not even used in the case. It seems as of now that Zimmerman acted outside the provisions of the law. I turn back to that general point I made: never judge a law, or philosophy based on abuses made in its name. It is the height of irrationality to do so. A law's merit is not based on its misapplication.
Dont you mean "As new RUMORS" keep surfacing?
Whats in the news isnt "Evidence"

[Frozen Sooner]

Eh. Zimmerman's lawyer says he's not going to attempt to use the "Stand Your Ground" law as a defense because it wouldn't apply. I think we can safely categorize that as "not rumor."

[Turd_Ferguson]

Eh. Zimmerman's lawyer says he's not going to attempt to use the "Stand Your Ground" law as a defense because it wouldn't apply. I think we can safely categorize that as "not rumor."So, you would believe a defense attorney at the beginning of his case?

[TUSooner]

Its called a "Rush to Judgement"
It's what we're here for!

But seriously, philf's account, assuming it is accurate, sheds some light on things. Nonetheless, it still seems to makes Zimmerman look "at fault" (in a general if not legal sense) even though he may well not have set out to kill Martin. It shows at the very least why we need trained, professional policemen, and that Zimmerman was not one, and that he had no business going around armed and acting like one. Whoever said "mansalughter" might be on the mark, though I am too tired to think seriously about it.

[TUSooner]

So, you would believe a defense attorney at the beginning of his case?

I was surprised that he made that statement - and I heard it with my own 2 ears - but I do not think he would have made it unless he meant it. I believe it's generally safe to say that a person who starts trouble cannot claim self-defense when the situation goes sour. And "stand your ground" is part of the self-defense defense.