Trayvon Martin: Are Make My Day Laws a Good Idea?

[olevetonahill]

It's what we're here for!

But seriously, philf's account, assuming it is accurate, sheds some light on things. Nonetheless, it still seems to makes Zimmerman look "at fault" (in a general if not legal sense) even though he may well not have set out to kill Martin. It shows at the very least why we need trained, professional policemen, and that Zimmerman was not one, and that he had no business going around armed and acting like one. Whoever said "mansalughter" might be on the mark, though I am too tired to think seriously about it.

When I was a cop about 1/2 the TRAINED cops on the force scarred the **** out of ME.

[olevetonahill]

Eh. Zimmerman's lawyer says he's not going to attempt to use the "Stand Your Ground" law as a defense because it wouldn't apply. I think we can safely categorize that as "not rumor."
ONE statement by an attorney does NOT represent the "FACTS " of this case.

[Frozen Sooner]

So, you would believe a defense attorney at the beginning of his case?


ONE statement by an attorney does NOT represent the "FACTS " of this case.

Yes, as it happens, when a DEFENSE attorney makes a public statement that a particular defense does not apply to his client, I would tend to believe him. Otherwise, it's an incredibly stupid thing to say. Poisoning the jury pool against a defense you anticipate using is generally considered what lawyers call "a bad move."

Obviously I don't take a statement of innocence or a statement claiming a defense applies at face value, but there's a reason why admissions against interest are considered particularly trustworthy.

[olevetonahill]

Yes, as it happens, when a DEFENSE attorney makes a public statement that a particular defense does not apply to his client, I would tend to believe him. Otherwise, it's an incredibly stupid thing to say. Poisoning the jury pool against a defense you anticipate using is generally considered what lawyers call "a bad move."

Obviously I don't take a statement of innocence or a statement claiming a defense applies at face value, but there's a reason why admissions against interest are considered particularly trustworthy.

Dont know where ya got that he wont use that defense, According to this he Is going to.
Why I said Rumors Versus FACTS bro

Zimmerman claimed self defense all along, and this weekend the lawyer counseling him, Craig Sonner, told ABC News that he was likely to invoke Florida's controversial stand-your-ground law in his defense.


http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-lead-prosecutor-says-george-zimmerman-030349598--abc-news.html

[Frozen Sooner]

From sources like this, directly quoting him as saying it doesn't apply.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html


Meanwhile, a lawyer for the man at the center of the death investigation said Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply to the shooting that killed the teen.
"In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, Zimmerman's attorney.



From your link it appears Sonner has changed his mind. He's set himself up for a nice malpractice lawsuit with his previous comments if Zimmerman doesn't get off now. His comments are admissible against Zimmerman under the Florida Rules of Evidence (Fl. Stat. 90.803(18)(d)).


Also, it's kind of notable that the author of the law says it doesn't apply here:
linky dink (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/)

Now, I wasn't there that night. I don't know what went down or who attacked whom. The 911 calls sound pretty bad for Zimmerman, but there's apparently an eyewitness who claims Martin was the aggressor. I think the way the police handled things--at least, what I've head about how they handled things--regardless of Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, was kind of messed up. That's all I have to say about that.

[olevetonahill]

Thats My point tho Mike This is all just rumor and speculation on reporters parts IMHO.

You have One article saying He wont use it and another saying he will.

Im sad this happened , But Ima wait and see.

[olevetonahill]

From sources like this, directly quoting him as saying it doesn't apply.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html





And am I wrong in thinking that "Stand your Ground" means just that?

[Frozen Sooner]

Thats My point tho Mike This is all just rumor and speculation on reporters parts IMHO.

You have One article saying He wont use it and another saying he will.

Im sad this happened , But Ima wait and see.

I don't disagree overall. I just disagreed with characterizing a statement by the defense attorney, who's presumably directly interviewed his client, against his client's interest as nothing but rumor.

[Frozen Sooner]

And am I wrong in thinking that "Stand your Ground" means just that?

Gimme a minute and I'll see if I can find the text of the statute.

[Frozen Sooner]

There you go:
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and


(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.



(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or


(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or


(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or


(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.



(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.


(5) As used in this section, the term:

(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.


(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.


(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.





Fla. Stat. Ann. § 776.013 (West)

I bolded the section that I think you'd want to use here.

[olevetonahill]

So then according to the Bolded part it is an applicable defense?

[jkjsooner]

I was surprised that he made that statement - and I heard it with my own 2 ears - but I do not think he would have made it unless he meant it. I believe it's generally safe to say that a person who starts trouble cannot claim self-defense when the situation goes sour. And "stand your ground" is part of the self-defense defense.

I agree that this should be the case but I don't see anything in the wording of the law that would limit its application here.

In my opinion, if you chase someone down, words are exchanged, and a fight ensues (even if the punches are thrown first by the other guy) you've lost your right to use deadly force (unless of course the other guy pulls a weapon first).

The problem is I don't see this in the law.

This is where I think the law needs to be reworked. There is a difference between initiating a conflict (even if the initiation is just verbal) and being attacked in a dark alley. This law is asking for simple bar fights to end in deadly force.

[jkjsooner]

Since the New Black Panther Party has put a hit out on Zimmerman, I suppose the feds will be arresting them for solicitation of murder as they would any other criminal that offers money for murder.

Let's not get carried away. They've put a reward for a citizen's arrest of Zimmerman.

My guess is that this is highly illegal although I find the whole idea of citizen's arrest to be legally confusing. Either way it's not exactly "a hit" unless you think that the unspoken intent was for someone to murder Zimmerman.

It would be interesting to see how the authorities are handling this. My guess is that they view it as an attention seeking stunt and considering the tensions in this case they wouldn't see it worth pursuing at this time.

[Frozen Sooner]

So then according to the Bolded part it is an applicable defense?

I think the "reasonable" bit is going to be tough based on what we've heard so far. Whether he acted reasonably or not is going to be a question for the jury, though.

[olevetonahill]

I think the "reasonable" bit is going to be tough based on what we've heard so far.

Which brings up another point in my mind
If and Moren likely WHEN charges are brought. where will they find an UNBIASED jury?

[olevetonahill]

Let's not get carried away. They've put a reward for a citizen's arrest of Zimmerman.

My guess is that this is highly illegal although I find the whole idea of citizen's arrest to be legally confusing. Either way it's not exactly "a hit" unless you think that the unspoken intent was for someone to murder Zimmerman.

It would be interesting to see how the authorities are handling this. My guess is that they view it as an attention seeking stunt and considering the tensions in this case they wouldn't see it worth pursuing at this time.

Read what they said HERE

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2012/03/new_black_panther_party_offers.html

[jkjsooner]

Read what they said HERE

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2012/03/new_black_panther_party_offers.html

That does sound more serious that the reports I saw. That can't be tolerated.

[olevetonahill]

That does sound more serious that the reports I saw. That can't be tolerated.
Yup. They gonna go HUNTING him !
Im sure the PoPo know where he is if and when they want him .

[jkjsooner]

I think the "reasonable" bit is going to be tough based on what we've heard so far. Whether he acted reasonably or not is going to be a question for the jury, though.

I see nothing in the law that states his actions prior to the conflict must be reasonable. It just states that he must "reasonably believe it is necessary to do so to prevent death." It would appear to me that Zimmerman would only need to reasonably feel threatened right before shooting Martin.

On second reading of the law, at least there is the phrase "person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity". That should prevent any sort of mutual fight ending in justifiable murder as both parties are no longer acting lawfully once the fight started.

It would be hard to apply that phrase against Zimmerman as nobody can prove that Zimmerman ever acted unlawfully prior to the shooting.


I still say the law needs major reworking. There should be some type of phrase about the person acting reasonably prior to the altercation and certain actions prior to the incident should exclude the use of "stand your ground" provisions. At some point (i.e. when you chase some innocent person down) you should lose some of the more lenient provisions and should meet a stricter self defense criteria.

No matter what went down, Zimmerman played a role in escalating the conflict. As the author of the law stated, this is now a situation where the law was applied as intended but the actual wording means more than what the author intended.

[Turd_Ferguson]

[QUOTE=Frozen Sooner;3464822]I think the "reasonable" bit is going to be tough based on what we've heard so far.good question. I've been wondering if Zimmerman is brought up on charges, does the attorney have any legal avenues to take after the POTUS has intervened in the case?

[TUSooner]

[QUOTE=olevetonahill;3464823]good question. I've been wondering if Zimmerman is brought up on charges, does the attorney have any legal avenues to take after the POTUS has intervened in the case?
Geez. Intervened? He uttered some innocuous piffle about ascertaining what really happened. Meh. But anyway, if there is a jury trial, you can be sure that the lawyers will endeavor to l find the 12 most uninformed people in the state of Florida to ensure that no juror was influenced by any of the many public comments by presidents and non-presidents alike.

[LiveLaughLove]

Let's not get carried away. They've put a reward for a citizen's arrest of Zimmerman.

My guess is that this is highly illegal although I find the whole idea of citizen's arrest to be legally confusing. Either way it's not exactly "a hit" unless you think that the unspoken intent was for someone to murder Zimmerman.

It would be interesting to see how the authorities are handling this. My guess is that they view it as an attention seeking stunt and considering the tensions in this case they wouldn't see it worth pursuing at this time.

The story you are referring to was a later story. On their first day of protests they were holding up a poster that said "WANTED : DEAD OR ALIVE". The poster was what my reference to a hit was about.

[sappstuf]

[QUOTE=Turd_Ferguson;3464837]
Geez. Intervened? He uttered some innocuous piffle about ascertaining what really happened. Meh. But anyway, if there is a jury trial, you can be sure that the lawyers will endeavor to l find the 12 most uniformed people in the state of Florida to ensure that no juror was influenced by any of the many public comments by presidents and non-presidents alike.

Innocuous piffle is Obama's specialty...

[Curly Bill]

[QUOTE=TUSooner;3464840]

Innocuous piffle is Obama's specialty...

LOL...and I thought TU was a Brack fan?

[Frozen Sooner]

I see nothing in the law that states his actions prior to the conflict must be reasonable. It just states that he must "reasonably believe it is necessary to do so to prevent death." It would appear to me that Zimmerman would only need to reasonably feel threatened right before shooting Martin.

On second reading of the law, at least there is the phrase "person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity". That should prevent any sort of mutual fight ending in justifiable murder as both parties are no longer acting lawfully once the fight started.

It would be hard to apply that phrase against Zimmerman as nobody can prove that Zimmerman ever acted unlawfully prior to the shooting.


I still say the law needs major reworking. There should be some type of phrase about the person acting reasonably prior to the altercation and certain actions prior to the incident should exclude the use of "stand your ground" provisions. At some point (i.e. when you chase some innocent person down) you should lose some of the more lenient provisions and should meet a stricter self defense criteria.

No matter what went down, Zimmerman played a role in escalating the conflict. As the author of the law stated, this is now a situation where the law was applied as intended but the actual wording means more than what the author intended.

He would need to reasonably believe that he was in danger of death or great physical harm. Zimmerman outweighed the kid by a large margin. The kid was armed with a packet of skittles. It's going to be tough to convince a jury that Zimmerman reasonably feared death or great physical injury. When we're talking great physical injury, we're not talking a beat-down here.

[Frozen Sooner]

Which brings up another point in my mind
If and Moren likely WHEN charges are brought. where will they find an UNBIASED jury?

Another reason Zimmerman's lawyer is an idiot. I'm sure they can find 12 people somewhere who don't know what's going on. Hell, they found a jury for every OJ trial.

[Frozen Sooner]

Several more fact questions for the jury, by the way:

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or


(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or


(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.





Fla. Stat. Ann. § 776.041 (West)

Subsection 2 seems to indicate that a person who initiates an encounter isn't able to invoke the self-defense justification (which includes the "stand your ground" provisions.) Did Zimmerman provoke the encounter by chasing Martin down with a gun?

Did Zimmerman attempt to withdraw from the situation?

Blah blah de blah.

Again, I have no opinion on Zimmerman's guilt or innocence as yet. My sole purpose here was to disagree with blanket condemnation of "Stand your ground" laws based on this case.

[Turd_Ferguson]

I see nothing in the law that states his actions prior to the conflict must be reasonable. It just states that he must "reasonably believe it is necessary to do so to prevent death." It would appear to me that Zimmerman would only need to reasonably feel threatened right before shooting Martin.

On second reading of the law, at least there is the phrase "person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity". That should prevent any sort of mutual fight ending in justifiable murder as both parties are no longer acting lawfully once the fight started.

It would be hard to apply that phrase against Zimmerman as nobody can prove that Zimmerman ever acted unlawfully prior to the shooting.


I still say the law needs major reworking. There should be some type of phrase about the person acting reasonably prior to the altercation and certain actions prior to the incident should exclude the use of "stand your ground" provisions. At some point (i.e. when you chase some innocent person down) you should lose some of the more lenient provisions and should meet a stricter self defense criteria.

No matter what went down, Zimmerman played a role in escalating the conflict. As the author of the law stated, this is now a situation where the law was applied as intended but the actual wording means more than what the author intended.

He would need to reasonably believe that he was in danger of death or great physical harm. Zimmerman outweighed the kid by a large margin. The kid was armed with a packet of skittles. It's going to be tough to convince a jury that Zimmerman reasonably feared death or great physical injury. When we're talking great physical injury, we're not talking a beat-down here.I guess the catch phrase for this incident is "he was armed with skittles". How about fist, feet and teeth? How do we know Zimmerman wasn't knocked down then got kicked in the face? Isn't feet considered a deadly weapon?

[OU_Sooners75]

Funny thing is...had this been a black on black or a mexican killing a white...we would not have a thread that is 14+ pages long on this board.

[C&CDean]

Funny thing is...had this been a black on black or a mexican killing a white...we would not have a thread that is 14+ pages long on this board.

What is it? With all the carrying on I thought it was a white killing a black? Personally, IDGAS about it and don't watch any national news so I don't know.

[TUSooner]

[QUOTE=sappstuf;3464842]

LOL...and I thought TU was a Brack fan?
Don't push me, son!
:D

[OULenexaman]

What is it? With all the carrying on I thought it was a white killing a black? Personally, IDGAS about it and don't watch any national news so I don't know. 1 juror found....

[Frozen Sooner]

I guess the catch phrase for this incident is "he was armed with skittles". How about fist, feet and teeth? How do we know Zimmerman wasn't knocked down then got kicked in the face? Isn't feet considered a deadly weapon?

How do we know he was? You're making facts up out of whole cloth. Generally, an armed man facing an unarmed man isn't reasonably in fear of his life. That's why it would be tough (though not impossible) under the facts as then reported to call the homicide justified by self-defense.

However, I just got on to mention that the version of facts now reported by the Orlando Sentinel would, I think, lead a jury to believe that he was in reasonable fear for his life from an unarmed assailant. The facts the OS are reporting are that Zimmerman was walking away and said that there was no problem when Martin punched him, knocked him down, got on top of him, and repeatedly bashed his head into the pavement. Of course, on those facts, you ALSO don't need a "stand your ground" bill: Zimmerman WAS retreating, and normal self-defense applies. On those facts, I would likely vote to acquit as well.

Note that I am not saying the facts as reported are the actual facts. They do seem consistent with both Martin and Zimmerman's injuries, though.

[ictsooner7]

I don't know if this has been discussed on here or not.

If Trayvon Martin had a gun, couldn't he have shot and killed Zimmerman and used the stand your ground law? Zimmerman did follow him and confront him.

[Frozen Sooner]

I posted the statute. Without more facts, no.

[hawaii 5-0]

Just goes to show.........don't bring Skittles to a gunfight.



5-0

[C&CDean]

OK, somebody help me out. Which one was black, which was white?

[Frozen Sooner]

I think one was an illegal immigrant.

[C&CDean]

OK, now you're funnin' with me.

I have to assume "Trayvon" was black. I have no clue about "Zimmerman" but I'd assume he's white. Am I correct on my assumptions?

[Mississippi Sooner]

OK, now you're funnin' with me.

I have to assume "Trayvon" was black. I have no clue about "Zimmerman" but I'd assume he's white. Am I correct on my assumptions?

His dad is white and his mom is some sort of Hispanic. Being in Florida, I'd guess Cuban.

[C&CDean]

His dad is white and his mom is some sort of Hispanic. Being in Florida, I'd guess Cuban.

A white dude and a Cuban lady name their kid "Trayvon?" Nuh uh. Why would Al Sharpton GAS about a white/cuban dubloon?

[Mississippi Sooner]

A white dude and a Cuban lady name their kid "Trayvon?" Nuh uh. Why would Al Sharpton GAS about a white/cuban dubloon?

No, no. The Zimmerman guy, the shooter, is the half-white half-Hispanic one.

[pphilfran]

A white dude and a Cuban lady name their kid "Trayvon?" Nuh uh. Why would Al Sharpton GAS about a white/cuban dubloon?

No....no....no.....no!

The white dude and Cuban had the shooter as a rugrat...the kid that got plugged was black...

[TitoMorelli]

I guess some people just grieve differently---



MARCH 26--The mother of Trayvon Martin has filed two applications to secure trademarks containing her late son’s name, records show.

Sabrina Fulton is seeking marks for the phrases “I Am Trayvon” and “Justice for Trayvon,” according to filings made last week with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. In both instances, Fulton is seeking the trademarks for use on “Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin,” and other products.

The March 21 USPTO applications, each of which cost $325, were filed by an Orlando, Florida law firm representing Fulton.


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Zimmerman is an American white half-Latino. His mom's nationality is/was Peruvian. She wasn't present at the incident.

[Frozen Sooner]

I thought Zimmerman was a white full-blooded Hispanic who took his stepfather's name.

[C&CDean]

Well hell then, it can't be racist or a hate crime. Nothing to see here...other than a bunch of thugs offering a reward - dead or alive - for some caucuban. Meh.

[Mississippi Sooner]

Caucuban. I like that.

[Turd_Ferguson]

How do we know he was? You're making facts up out of whole cloth. Generally, an armed man facing an unarmed man isn't reasonably in fear of his life. That's why it would be tough (though not impossible) under the facts as then reported to call the homicide justified by self-defense.

However, I just got on to mention that the version of facts now reported by the Orlando Sentinel would, I think, lead a jury to believe that he was in reasonable fear for his life from an unarmed assailant. The facts the OS are reporting are that Zimmerman was walking away and said that there was no problem when Martin punched him, knocked him down, got on top of him, and repeatedly bashed his head into the pavement. Of course, on those facts, you ALSO don't need a "stand your ground" bill: Zimmerman WAS retreating, and normal self-defense applies. On those facts, I would likely vote to acquit as well.

Note that I am not saying the facts as reported are the actual facts. They do seem consistent with both Martin and Zimmerman's injuries, though.I'm making up facts??? My point was this...if you get in a fight with somebody and they get the best of you, then start kicking you in the head...it's an even playing field now. If you have a machete, a big *** buck knife, a sawed off broom stick or a pistol in your pocket...you can use it to protect yourself. Am I right?

[Turd_Ferguson]

Zimmerman is an American white half-Latino. His mom's nationality is/was Peruvian. She wasn't present at the incident.Heh! I was wondering if you going to chime in...I'm sure you've been doing some deep digging to make sure he wasn't mexican...[greendudewithbigteef]

[olevetonahill]

Sounding Moren more like Self defense to me , But again Ill wait till all the facts are knowm

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html

[Turd_Ferguson]

Also Monday, an attorney for Martin's mother confirmed that she filed trademark applications for two slogans containing her son's name: "Justice for Trayvon" and "I Am Trayvon." The applications said the trademarks could be used for such things as DVDs and CDs.

The trademark attorney, Kimra Major-Morris, said in an email that Fulton wants to protect intellectual property rights for "projects that will assist other families who experience similar tragedies."
Asked if Fulton had any profit motive, the attorney replied: "None."


Read more: http://newsok.com/fight-claims-pot-put-fla.-teens-side-on-defense/article/feed/364009#ixzz1qGbTevAw

Mmmm Hmmm...

[cccasooner2]

Both sides got the PR machines cranked up. Why don't they just set a deadline (pun intended) and put it to a popular nationwide vote. If it's not unanimous, Zimmerman goes free. :D

[AlboSooner]

Only one side has the president on their side, the Miami Heat, most of the media, and Al Sharpton and his racial tension seeking hyenas.

[hawaii 5-0]

Isn't this the same State that recently let the baby-killing mama free?


Also, if you're armed with a bag of Skittles and attack someone who's stalking you is that assault and battery? Attempted murder?

I'm having trouble finding the weapons classification for a bag of Skittles.

5-0

[AlboSooner]

Was the bag of skittles the reason why he killed that guy? I know some people will come with fresh anger after watching the Daily Show, but the bag of skittles is pretty meaningless in this case.


We can never have an honest adult conversation about justice, race an so on, without somebody somewhere making a mockery of the situation. I don't know how everybody is so sure that Zimmerman, shot Treyvon because he was black. Somebody, who has no interest in justice, put that spin there.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Was the bag of skittles the reason why he killed that guy? I know some people will come with fresh anger after watching the Daily Show, but the bag of skittles is pretty meaningless in this case.


We can never have an honest adult conversation about justice, race an so on, without somebody somewhere making a mockery of the situation. I don't know how everybody is so sure that Zimmerman, shot Treyvon because he was black. Somebody, who has no interest in justice, put that spin there.You have to understand,...5-0 thinks she's trolling, so you have to latch onto her stink bait so she can laugh and say "Gotcha!"...The skittles is lame and she knows it, but she'll keep throwing it out there because it makes sense to her...

[AlboSooner]

You have to understand,...5-0 thinks she's trolling, so you have to latch onto her stink bait so she can laugh and say "Gotcha!"...The skittles is lame and she knows it, but she'll keep throwing it out there because it makes sense to her...

My comment was general in nature, as many in the media have used the skittles as a springboard to show how monstrous and racist the killing was. The skittles serve as contrast: innocent young black boy armed with a bag of skittles was shot by racist white man carrying a firearm, who is free because of a conservative law.


This has taken a racial (political) spin, which somebody not interested in justice and unity has placed it there. I don't think elements from the right would benefit from such a move.

[Turd_Ferguson]

My comment was general in nature, as many in the media have used the skittles as a springboard to show how monstrous and racist the killing was. This has taken a racial spin, which somebody not interested in justice and unity has placed it there. I don't think elements from the right would benefit from such a move.Careful now...your gonna make icky and 5-0 blow a gasket talk'n **** like that...

[Wishboned]

Isn't this the same State that recently let the baby-killing mama free?


Also, if you're armed with a bag of Skittles and attack someone who's stalking you is that assault and battery? Attempted murder?

I'm having trouble finding the weapons classification for a bag of Skittles.

5-0


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/TheRainKing/Links/1264625657_D9mmrainbow.jpg

[AlboSooner]

If this story had no made-up racial angle, it would have never made national news. Media thought "white kills blacks" and jumped on it.

Meanwhile in Obama's city.....

Chicago Weekend Shootings: 10 Dead, At Least 40 Wounded (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/19/10-dead-chicago-shootings-_n_1362604.html)

9-year old girl shot by gang cross fire. (http://dimewars.com/Video/9-Year-Old-Girl-Playing-Jump-Rope-Killed-by-Gang-Crossfire-in-Chicago---RIP-ANGEL.aspx?bcmediaid=8dbded96-82a9-49e9-bab9-4babc201d610)

Illinois has very very strict gun laws: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Illinois



It is clear, and a fact now that Zimmerman is Hispanic.

[StoopTroup]

Geraldo is on Fox news trying to outlaw the Hoodie.


Geraldo: "THE HOODIE IS AS MUCH RESPONSIBLE FOR TRAYVON MARTIN'S DEATH AS GEORGE ZIMMERMAN WAS." :bull_head:

Geraldo goes on to say that had Trayvon Martin dressed more appropriately, George Zimmerman would not have killed him.

He was not even challenged on his statements by the "Fox and Friends" hosts!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTMyb15bfAE

[StoopTroup]

YOU CAN NOT REHABILITATE THE HOODIE ! ! !

[cleller]

Firstly, I do believe race was a factor in Zimmerman's thinking. However, age and sex were probably equally important factors.

Its interesting that people are OK with age and sex profiling.

[OULenexaman]

Anyone catch the New Black Panthers on AC 360 last night. They have a 10K bounty out for Zimmerman. That is one whacked out group of people.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Everything points to self defense and that Trayvon was the aggressor. Zimmerman was walking away after losing Trayvon and it was Trayvon that attacked Zimmerman. The forensics mentioned proves Zimmerman was on his back with injuries to the face and the back of the head. Plus, Trayvon is becoming a more and more uncivil person with the latest information about his suspensions, drugs and other uncivil actions.

I'll wait to see if there are any retractions if this turns out to be true...

I seriously doubt anyone will backtrack from the vitriol they spewed...I bet it is used as an excuse to implement more anti-gun laws.

Sounds like true and true self-defense now.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Anyone catch the New Black Panthers on AC 360 last night. They have a 10K bounty out for Zimmerman. That is one whacked out group of people.

But they are fine upstanding citizens working as poll watchers...

[Curly Bill]

Anyone catch the New Black Panthers on AC 360 last night. They have a 10K bounty out for Zimmerman. That is one whacked out group of people.

Like they could come up with $10,000 between the whole bunch of em!

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Awww, shucks. Poor lil' Trayvon was breaking the law.

843.20 Harassment of participant of neighborhood crime watch program prohibited; penalty; definitions.—(1) It shall be a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083, for any person to willfully harass, threaten, or intimidate an identifiable member of a neighborhood crime watch program while such member is engaged in, or traveling to or from, an organized neighborhood crime watch program activity or a member who is participating in an ongoing criminal investigation, as designated by a law enforcement officer.
(2) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person which causes substantial emotional distress in that person and serves no legitimate purpose.
(b) “Organized neighborhood crime watch program activity” means any prearranged event, meeting, or other scheduled activity, or neighborhood patrol, conducted by or at the direction of a neighborhood crime watch program or the program’s authorized designee.
History.—s. 2, ch. 2004-18.

[olevetonahill]

Read what they said HERE

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2012/03/new_black_panther_party_offers.html


Anyone catch the New Black Panthers on AC 360 last night. They have a 10K bounty out for Zimmerman. That is one whacked out group of people.

Yea I posted the Link to what they were sayin a few pages back

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/onr/resources/publications/2011/NWIntrobookletrev610.pdf.pdf

And apparently the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office wants Neighborhood Watchmen to be informed as to what constitutes "suspicious activity". They even go as far as to list said examples on page 10. And at number four on the countdown...


A person with seemingly no purpose, wandering around or loitering in the neighborhood.

But I thought he noticed the kid because he was black. Go figure.

[OULenexaman]

they was dam funny to see and hear....laughed my *** off last night.

[StoopTroup]

Which ones of you are the White Panthers?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Which ones of you are the White Panthers?

we're called voters...

[cleller]

The times sure are changing on this thread. A few days ago you couldn't ask Trayvon's shoe size without being clobbered by his protectors. He seems to have been going thru some big changes lately in attitude and appearance. His N-word twitter account, or whatever that is, sounds like he was wanting to viewed as a tough.

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer

[TUSooner]

The times sure are changing on this thread. A few days ago you couldn't ask Trayvon's shoe size without being clobbered by his protectors. He seems to have been going thru some big changes lately in attitude and appearance. His N-word twitter account, or whatever that is, sounds like he was wanting to viewed as a tough.

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer

Some people change their minds when exposed to facts, other press on blindly, refusing to let mere knowledge disturb their certain beliefs. I hope I am one of the former.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Some people change their minds when exposed to facts, other press on blindly, refusing to let mere knowledge disturb their certain beliefs. I hope I am one of the former.

I'm not.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/10/3/33898d08-fa18-49a5-b242-1afdb2572b33.jpg

KILL WHITEY

[TUSooner]

I'm not into thinking about stuff. Cuz it's rilly haaaard.
I think we knew that already.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

ur werds hurt mah brane owwww

[jumperstop]

I've avoided posting in this thread because I don't like getting into dicussions where nobody knows all the facts. I'll just say this though. Whether or not Zimmerman was a racist doesn't matter. Whether or not Martin was a weedhead gangster thug doesn't matter. Set aside the media spectical it is, dude still got killed wrongly....Not necessarily illegally, probably not in fact since it was said he was beating on Zimmerman, but anyone who thinks it's right for a neighborhood watch to confront someone they think is suspicious, causing them to attack you to the point you have to defend your self from them with deadly force is stupid. The kid had the right to be doing whatever he was doing and shouldn't have been confronted for any reason and if he has to be, do it in a professional way. I almost said in a law enforcement way but even they suck it up sometimes.

I haven't read this entire thread, but I did read early on in it that people were saying "I bet Martin wasn't like 'Gee sir, my dad just lives over there'" The other side to that is I bet Zimmerman wasn't like "Young lad, may I ask what you're doing out this evening?" Both probably went about things the wrong way...Dude died unfairly, whether or not he was a druggy. I think Zimmerman should serve and was WAY wrong in killing the kid, but will he under the law? Probably not.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if someone started following me around in a neighborhood I was walking in, I would probably be a little scared too. And if confronting innocent people and attempting to make some citizens arrest is ok in this country, that's ****ed up. You call the police as a neighborhood watch, not attempt to deal with the problem yourself. It's neighborhood WATCH, not neighborhood attempt to arrest and get my *** beat to the point I have to kill a kid....

[okie52]

Trayvon for president!!!!!!

[olevetonahill]

Trayvon for president!!!!!!
Why?
His Daddy already the Pres.

[okie52]

Why?
His Daddy already the Pres.

:congratulatory:he already said if he had a son.....

[KABOOKIE]

Dey's kilt my boy. Now dey's tryin to kill his reppootashun.

[sappstuf]

One thing we do know is that Zimmerman was a white, racist, Republican....

Oh wait...

He was a Hispanic, err, misunderstood Democrat....

http://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/photo3-540x220.jpg

[hawaii 5-0]

We do know that Zimmerman stalked another person. He was told not to continue following the other person. He disregarded instructions and shot and killed the person he was stalking.

Subsequently he was not arrested or charged with any offense.


After that there's tons of speculation.

5-0

[olevetonahill]

We do know that Zimmerman stalked another person. He was told not to continue following the other person. He disregarded instructions and shot and killed the person he was stalking.

Subsequently he was not arrested or charged with any offense.


After that there's tons of speculation.

5-0

YOU Know this huh?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

We live in a gated circle drive with 60 lots. During the early years we lived here, Maria's brother, Felipe, would visit occasionally. He was a virile looking Mexican in his twenties, usually wearing cowboy boots and a cowboy hat. Worked roofing, dry wall, & home remodeling.

It was very common, and still is, for folks in the neighborhood to walk around the circle for after-dinner exercise and just to get out of the house to enjoy the usually great California weather.

So when Felipe visited, he would sometimes go for a walk around the block, cowboy boots and all.

There were three times within a period of a year, I would get a knock at my door with Felipe and a security guard standing on the front porch. All three times, the security guard said something like, "We got a call about someone in the neighborhood who didn't look like he belonged. Does he belong to you?"

"Yes, he's my brother-in-law."

Guard gives a forced smile, tip of the hat, and goes back to his patrol car.

[Seamus]

Why?
His Daddy already the Pres.

Knuckles sore from all that dragging?

[hawaii 5-0]

YOU Know this huh?


Well, it's public record. Transcripts and police reports have been published.

Are there parts of what I listed that you disagree with?

5-0

[olevetonahill]

Knuckles sore from all that dragging?

No they in pretty good shape from knocking the hell out of Mouthy Libs

[Wishboned]

We do know that Zimmerman stalked another person. He was told not to continue following the other person. He disregarded instructions and shot and killed the person he was stalking.

Subsequently he was not arrested or charged with any offense.


After that there's tons of speculation.

5-0


He wasn't arrested, but he was handcuffed, placed in the back of a patrol car, treated for his injuries, and then taken to the police station where he was questioned for 5 hours.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57405476/what-happened-right-after-trayvon-martins-shooting/

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

[TUSooner]

I've avoided posting in this thread because I don't like getting into dicussions where nobody knows all the facts. I'll just say this though. Whether or not Zimmerman was a racist doesn't matter. Whether or not Martin was a weedhead gangster thug doesn't matter. Set aside the media spectical it is, dude still got killed wrongly....Not necessarily illegally, probably not in fact since it was said he was beating on Zimmerman, but anyone who thinks it's right for a neighborhood watch to confront someone they think is suspicious, causing them to attack you to the point you have to defend your self from them with deadly force is stupid. The kid had the right to be doing whatever he was doing and shouldn't have been confronted for any reason and if he has to be, do it in a professional way. I almost said in a law enforcement way but even they suck it up sometimes.

I haven't read this entire thread, but I did read early on in it that people were saying "I bet Martin wasn't like 'Gee sir, my dad just lives over there'" The other side to that is I bet Zimmerman wasn't like "Young lad, may I ask what you're doing out this evening?" Both probably went about things the wrong way...Dude died unfairly, whether or not he was a druggy. I think Zimmerman should serve and was WAY wrong in killing the kid, but will he under the law? Probably not.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if someone started following me around in a neighborhood I was walking in, I would probably be a little scared too. And if confronting innocent people and attempting to make some citizens arrest is ok in this country, that's ****ed up. You call the police as a neighborhood watch, not attempt to deal with the problem yourself. It's neighborhood WATCH, not neighborhood attempt to arrest and get my *** beat to the point I have to kill a kid....
THIS^

I don't care who shot whom, some of the thoughtless posts in this thread are just plan ****. It's like every bit of fact that puts Martin in a bad light causes rejoicing and brings all the laughing n***** haters out of the closet, or out from under their own pointy hoods. As if their prejudices are confirmed and justified by anything that makes the dead guy like look like he somehow "deserved it." Well, I guess they're just being honest, after all. Between these ****-heads and the howling lynch-mob (led by the begging-to-still-be-relevant Sharpton-Jackson duo) it's a wonder there aren't more people dead. FPOMF is what this is.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Speaking of thoughtless post that are just plain ****...

[olevetonahill]

THIS^

I don't care who shot whom, some of the thoughtless posts in this thread are just plan ****. It's like every bit of fact that puts Martin in a bad light causes rejoicing and brings all the laughing n***** haters out of the closet, or out from under their own pointy hoods. As if their prejudices are confirmed and justified by anything that makes the dead guy like look like he somehow "deserved it." Well, I guess they're just being honest, after all. Between these ****-heads and the howling lynch-mob (led by the begging-to-still-be-relevant Sharpton-Jackson duo) it's a wonder there aren't more people dead. FPOMF is what this is.

Glad to see you have such a Low opinion of some of us Bro

I for one Only point out Trayvons prior troubles with Glee because of the way The Media tried to Hype this thing from the start
Z was a White Racist POS , Poor lil Trayvon was all innocent and only gettin him some skittles .

Sure I LAUGH at all of those that Rushed to Judgement on either side of this deal

Sad part is a Kid is dead Yet most posters just want to point out How Racist and hateful other posters are

[olevetonahill]

For those that care to read it Heres the initial Police report

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/03/trayvon-martin-shooting-death-initial-police-reports.html?cid=6a00d83451b4ba69e2016303576100970 d

[Mississippi Sooner]

I'll tell ya what this whole thing has reminded me of from the start. Do any of you remember the story from back in the 1980s called Bonfire of the Vanities by Tom Wolfe? No, I'm not talking about that craptastic movie of the same name, but the novel.

One of the primary plot points of the story was that this rich white guy accidentally ran over and killed a young black man who was with another young black man who was attempting to set up an ambush to rob the white guy. Because the rich white guy was having a tryst with his mistress when all this went down, he didn't call an ambulance or report it to the police, and the young black guy died.

In the meantime, a reporter looking for a big break, who works for a newspaper that will do anything to generate more sales, gets wind of the story and decides to really run with it. As the story progresses, the young guy who got killed, who wasn't as bad as the other kid, but still just a young dude, all in all, suddenly becomes a beloved honor student who was Ivy League bound and was going to lead his family out of the projects. The rich white dude, who basically just got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, becomes this soulless racist who views minorities as something less than human. It was a real indictment of the New York media scene at the time, and a harbinger of the national media scene of the future.

In other words, life sometimes imitates art to a tee.

[jkjsooner]

I've avoided posting in this thread because I don't like getting into dicussions where nobody knows all the facts. I'll just say this though. Whether or not Zimmerman was a racist doesn't matter. Whether or not Martin was a weedhead gangster thug doesn't matter. Set aside the media spectical it is, dude still got killed wrongly....Not necessarily illegally, probably not in fact since it was said he was beating on Zimmerman, but anyone who thinks it's right for a neighborhood watch to confront someone they think is suspicious, causing them to attack you to the point you have to defend your self from them with deadly force is stupid. The kid had the right to be doing whatever he was doing and shouldn't have been confronted for any reason and if he has to be, do it in a professional way. I almost said in a law enforcement way but even they suck it up sometimes.

I haven't read this entire thread, but I did read early on in it that people were saying "I bet Martin wasn't like 'Gee sir, my dad just lives over there'" The other side to that is I bet Zimmerman wasn't like "Young lad, may I ask what you're doing out this evening?" Both probably went about things the wrong way...Dude died unfairly, whether or not he was a druggy. I think Zimmerman should serve and was WAY wrong in killing the kid, but will he under the law? Probably not.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if someone started following me around in a neighborhood I was walking in, I would probably be a little scared too. And if confronting innocent people and attempting to make some citizens arrest is ok in this country, that's ****ed up. You call the police as a neighborhood watch, not attempt to deal with the problem yourself. It's neighborhood WATCH, not neighborhood attempt to arrest and get my *** beat to the point I have to kill a kid....

Best post in this entire thread.

[TUSooner]

Glad to see you have such a Low opinion of some of us Bro

I for one Only point out Trayvons prior troubles with Glee because of the way The Media tried to Hype this thing from the start
Z was a White Racist POS , Poor lil Trayvon was all innocent and only gettin him some skittles .

Sure I LAUGH at all of those that Rushed to Judgement on either side of this deal

Sad part is a Kid is dead Yet most posters just want to point out How Racist and hateful other posters are

You know Howard, it IS sad that I do have a low opinion of some of the posters around here. Maybe if I knew a little more about them, like I do about you after reading about 40 zillion of your posts, I would not be so harsh. But I'm just pretty ****in' damn tired of some of the **** passed off as discussion by people who don't care to think or consider anything that's doesn't mesh with their already iron-clad opinions. And there IS some hateful racist **** that needs calling out. But I know it's pointless, cuz nobody will concede the slightest error, much less admit that their viewpoint needs even the slightest adjustment. And of course, it IS just the internet, so one mustn't expect too much! So I think I'll just step away for awhile... before I get carried away.

[OULenexaman]

I'll tell ya what this whole thing has reminded me of from the start. Do any of you remember the story from back in the 1980s called Bonfire of the Vanities by Tom Wolfe? No, I'm not talking about that craptastic movie of the same name, but the novel.

One of the primary plot points of the story was that this rich white guy accidentally ran over and killed a young black man who was with another young black man who was attempting to set up an ambush to rob the white guy. Because the rich white guy was having a tryst with his mistress when all this went down, he didn't call an ambulance or report it to the police, and the young black guy died.

In the meantime, a reporter looking for a big break, who works for a newspaper that will do anything to generate more sales, gets wind of the story and decides to really run with it. As the story progresses, the young guy who got killed, who wasn't as bad as the other kid, but still just a young dude, all in all, suddenly becomes a beloved honor student who was Ivy League bound and was going to lead his family out of the projects. The rich white dude, who basically just got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, becomes this soulless racist who views minorities as something less than human. It was a real indictment of the New York media scene at the time, and a harbinger of the national media scene of the future.

In other words, life sometimes imitates art to a tee. I found a better one jkjs

[pphilfran]

You know Howard, it IS sad that I do have a low opinion of some of the posters around here. Maybe if I knew a little more about them, like I do about you after reading about 40 zillion of your posts, I would not be so harsh. But I'm just pretty ****in' damn tired of some of the **** passed off as discussion by people who don't care to think or consider anything that's doesn't mesh with their already iron-clad opinions. And there IS some hateful racist **** that needs calling out. But I know it's pointless, cuz nobody will concede the slightest error, much less admit that their viewpoint needs even the slightest adjustment. And of course, it IS just the internet, so one mustn't expect too much! So I think I'll just step away for awhile... before I get carried away.

Then don't toss everyone into the same barrel... instead just reply to those that you disagree with...

[olevetonahill]

You know Howard, it IS sad that I do have a low opinion of some of the posters around here. Maybe if I knew a little more about them, like I do about you after reading about 40 zillion of your posts, I would not be so harsh. But I'm just pretty ****in' damn tired of some of the **** passed off as discussion by people who don't care to think or consider anything that's doesn't mesh with their already iron-clad opinions. And there IS some hateful racist **** that needs calling out. But I know it's pointless, cuz nobody will concede the slightest error, much less admit that their viewpoint needs even the slightest adjustment. And of course, it IS just the internet, so one mustn't expect too much! So I think I'll just step away for awhile... before I get carried away.

While Ill be one of the 1st to admit that there is still Racism in this country, I'd like to point out that it is Nowhere near as bad as its been in even the recent past

I think what You see as Blatant racism is Nothing more than a lot of folk sick and tired of the Sharptons and Jesse Js ,theNews Media and the White appoligist that run this **** in the ground until Most folk just get sick of hearing it, and Pop off something thats better left unsaid


I still posit that one of the biggest Problems facing this country today is 24/7 News from every angle a reporter can aim for

[pphilfran]

You will never be able to legislate out racism...

As each older generation dies out the amount of racism will decline...if someone hates blacks they will not change their mind until until they are pushing up daisies...

[olevetonahill]

You will never be able to legislate out racism...

As each older generation dies out the amount of racism will decline...if someone hates blacks they will not change their mind until until they are pushing up daisies...

Racism will always be with us
Dont matter if its Whites hating the Blacks, Blacks hating the White, Messicans hatin the Whites AND blacks ..

Every race is gonna think they have a gripe and Blame a Different race for their Probs

[OULenexaman]

While Ill be one of the 1st to admit that there is still Racism in this country, I'd like to point out that it is Nowhere near as bad as its been in even the recent past

I think what You see as Blatant racism is Nothing more than a lot of folk sick and tired of the Sharptons and Jesse Js ,theNews Media and the White appoligist that run this **** in the ground until Most folk just get sick of hearing it, and Pop off something thats better left unsaid


I still posit that one of the biggest Problems facing this country today is 24/7 News from every angle a reporter can aim for Interesting......now what if the KKK suddenly surfaced on this? Kinda like the New Black Panthers have.....I'll just duck..

[olevetonahill]

Interesting......now what if the KKK suddenly surfaced on this? Kinda like the New Black Panthers have.....I'll just duck..

Good point
Most of us only think of Racism as Whites hating Blacks

The BP's are a Prime example of the reverse

[OULenexaman]

I think the BP's are just pissed that the KKK actually invented the hoodie.

[pphilfran]

Racism will always be with us
Dont matter if its Whites hating the Blacks, Blacks hating the White, Messicans hatin the Whites AND blacks ..

Every race is gonna think they have a gripe and Blame a Different race for their Probs

True...but the total number of racists will decline as the older generations die off...

[sappstuf]

We do know that Zimmerman stalked another person. He was told not to continue following the other person. He disregarded instructions and shot and killed the person he was stalking.

Subsequently he was not arrested or charged with any offense.


After that there's tons of speculation.

5-0

No he wasn't.. From the transcript..


Are you following him?

Zimmerman:

Yeah.

911 dispatcher:

OK. We don’t need you to do that.

That isn't being instructed to do anything.. If that is something "we do know", we don't know much.

[olevetonahill]

Speakin of Racism, Is this Not it? This from the Kids Facebook or Twitter er some **** .

He has on there
" Made Nigga"

Is that term used in the Mafia way? as in a Made Man ?


2618

[pphilfran]

Speakin of Racism, Is this Not it? This from the Kids Facebook or Twitter er some **** .

He has on there
" Made Nigga"

Is that term used in the Mafia way? as in a Made Man ?


2618

I think that is the pic that is not actually him...

[Curly Bill]

I think the BP's are just pissed that the KKK actually invented the hoodie.

OK...this is funny! Maybe not PC, not that I ever care about that carp, but funny.

[olevetonahill]

I think that is the pic that is not actually him...
May not be, I was told it was . But Hell What do I know

[pphilfran]

May not be, I was told it was . But Hell What do I know

I don't know for sure but I think that is the pic everyone has been talking about...

[sappstuf]

I don't know for sure but I think that is the pic everyone has been talking about...

That picture is not him.

This picture is him.

http://www.drudgereport.com/tz.jpg

[OULenexaman]

dead before that grille got completed.....dats a dayum shame.

[cccasooner2]

Do the McLains now have a freebie or more to shoot anyone that looks at them a little "differently"? How are they to know whether their pictures were released by a person or persons unknown that associates them to their address tweeted?

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10902897-couple-lives-in-fear-after-their-address-tweeted-as-george-zimmermans

[SCOUT]

Do the McLains now have a freebie or more to shoot anyone that looks at them a little "differently"? How are they to know whether their pictures were released by a person or persons unknown that associates them to their address tweeted?

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10902897-couple-lives-in-fear-after-their-address-tweeted-as-george-zimmermans
Here is another link on that story. I thought this quote was interesting.

When William Zimmerman pleaded with the man who tweeted the address, the man responded, "Black power all day. No justice, no peace" along with an obscenity.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/28/elderly-couple-forced-out-home-after-tweet-claims-killer-trayvon-miller-lives/#ixzz1qONII6KM?test=latestnews

[OULenexaman]

That one is gonna cost ya Spikey boy...

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://threadbombing.com/data/media/3/naggers.jpg

[jkjsooner]

Speakin of Racism, Is this Not it? This from the Kids Facebook or Twitter er some **** .

He has on there
" Made Nigga"

I used to argue this same thing but I no longer view it that way. Many members of ethnic groups will use derogatory words to each other in such a way. I knew a Japanese girl who would use such a term with other Japanese friends (all good natured) but you better not call them that if you are not Japanese. It's just a part of human nature.

Frankly, I've heard white people call each other crackers before as well. It's not the same as if a black person called us a cracker - especially in a derogatory way.

But I also think there is another side to this. People should step back and look at the context when a term is used. For example, if a white kid has all black friends he could easily use the word from above to refer to them and it might be considered acceptable within the group. If a black person out of the group heard it he may be offended but after being given the context he should not be as it wasn't used to degrade someone but instead used in a "belonging" way.


All that said, I do agree with Bill Cosby when he criticizes the use not because it's so inflammatory. Rather it really doesn't present those who use it in a positive manner and might make others feel empowered to use it in a derogatory way.

[LiveLaughLove]

I used to argue this same thing but I no longer view it that way. Many members of ethnic groups will use derogatory words to each other in such a way. I knew a Japanese girl who would use such a term with other Japanese friends (all good natured) but you better not call them that if you are not Japanese. It's just a part of human nature.

Frankly, I've heard white people call each other crackers before as well. It's not the same as if a black person called us a cracker - especially in a derogatory way.

But I also think there is another side to this. People should step back and look at the context when a term is used. For example, if a white kid has all black friends he could easily use the word from above to refer to them and it might be considered acceptable within the group. If a black person out of the group heard it he may be offended but after being given the context he should not be as it wasn't used to degrade someone but more as used in a "belonging" way.


All that said, I do agree with Bill Cosby when he criticizes the use not because it's so inflammatory. Rather it really doesn't present those who use it in a positive manner and might make others feel empowered to use it in a derogatory way.

In other words, it's stupid? I agree.

[cccasooner2]

Frankly, I've heard white people call each other crackers before as well. It's not the same as if a black person called us a cracker - especially in a derogatory way.

I prefer the term ofay when used in a great way.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I used to argue this same thing but I no longer view it that way. Many members of ethnic groups will use derogatory words to each other in such a way. I knew a Japanese girl who would use such a term with other Japanese friends (all good natured) but you better not call them that if you are not Japanese. It's just a part of human nature.

Frankly, I've heard white people call each other crackers before as well. It's not the same as if a black person called us a cracker - especially in a derogatory way.

But I also think there is another side to this. People should step back and look at the context when a term is used. For example, if a white kid has all black friends he could easily use the word from above to refer to them and it might be considered acceptable within the group. If a black person out of the group heard it he may be offended but after being given the context he should not be as it wasn't used to degrade someone but instead used in a "belonging" way.


All that said, I do agree with Bill Cosby when he criticizes the use not because it's so inflammatory. Rather it really doesn't present those who use it in a positive manner and might make others feel empowered to use it in a derogatory way.

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/7/73/JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg/618px-JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg

[LiveLaughLove]

Goodness, the Obama Campaign is now saying that Republicans are the ones politicizing Martins death!

The amount of gall that requires is staggering on the same day as a Democrat member of congress wore a hoodie (Along with every other liberal media member and politician) on the House floor and was reprimanded.

Unfreakingbelievable, except that they know the media overall will compliantly go along with it and chastise the Republicans. Just wow.

This has been politicized from day one because it fit the meme, even though it really doesn't fit the meme.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

WHERE ALL DE WHITE WIMMEN AT?

[LiveLaughLove]

Not politicized for sure:


http://patdollard.com/2012/03/congresswoman-cant-quite-remember-name-of-young-white-female-murder-victim-of-equal-concern-to-martin-case/#ooid=BnaWthNDqVDJJBvnUJZY26Gx-l2oR-kV]

[LiveLaughLove]

It's actually getting embarrassing watching the race hustlers work their mojo and not give a rip about actual due process or if it will further hurt the country itself by division.

[olevetonahill]

Not politicized for sure:


http://patdollard.com/2012/03/congresswoman-cant-quite-remember-name-of-young-white-female-murder-victim-of-equal-concern-to-martin-case/#ooid=BnaWthNDqVDJJBvnUJZY26Gx-l2oR-kV]

Did she get all her talkin points from Icky?

[LiveLaughLove]

Could you make this stuff up if you tried?

After attending an anti-violence demonstration in support of Trayvon Martin, a college student goes to his ex-girlfriends dorm room, punches her out, and kidnaps her.

It's becoming surreal.

[StoopTroup]

It's actually getting embarrassing watching the race hustlers work their mojo and not give a rip about actual due process or if it will further hurt the country itself by division.

So you don't think that an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth hasn't been a part of due process in this Country? Seriously?

[jkjsooner]

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/7/73/JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg/618px-JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg

If you think my post deserves a facepalm I think I deserve an explanation why.

I think I made my case pretty well. I presented arguments on both sides. I stated that in many (not just black) groups they turn derogatory comments around and use them in a way that is not considered derogatory. (I don't know the exact reason but you can probably find plenty of literature in sociology about it.) I turned the argument around and stated that members within those groups should always consider context when others use those terms. I also turned it around and gave an example of people within those groups who do not feel that the use of those terms is advisable as it puts those people in a bad light.

I'm guessing you think it was some sort of liberal rant but that only leads me to conclude that you didn't read past the first couple of sentences.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

When do you assume your captaincy?

Of the USS Failwrong Jumpstoassumptions?

[KABOOKIE]

What sad is watching the race pimps of this board go down with their ship of hate seemingly mad because this story of big bad republican white hate is a big ****ing sham.

This is partly why I am soooo ready for Obama to be gone. Disagree? Then you're a racist! It's getting old you pathetic losers.

[Turd_Ferguson]

What sad is watching the race pimps of this board go down with their ship of hate seemingly mad because this story of big bad republican white hate is a big ****ing sham.

This is partly why I am soooo ready for Obama to be gone. Disagree? Then you're a racist! It's getting old you pathetic losers.Heh. So true. Amazing how the Democrats have kept the minorities under their thumb for so long...

[Turd_Ferguson]

THIS^

I don't care who shot whom, some of the thoughtless posts in this thread are just plan ****. It's like every bit of fact that puts Martin in a bad light causes rejoicing and brings all the laughing n***** haters out of the closet, or out from under their own pointy hoods. As if their prejudices are confirmed and justified by anything that makes the dead guy like look like he somehow "deserved it." Well, I guess they're just being honest, after all. Between these ****-heads and the howling lynch-mob (led by the begging-to-still-be-relevant Sharpton-Jackson duo) it's a wonder there aren't more people dead. FPOMF is what this is.N***** haters? Pointy hoods? You need to get out more...and quit hat'n your own color...

[jkjsooner]

When do you assume your captaincy?

Of the USS Failwrong Jumpstoassumptions?

Okay, clearly you have no interest in actually discussing anything. It looks like you're taking Turd's lead so I'll let you continue with your typical one line insults.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Okay, clearly you have no interest in actually discussing anything. It looks like you're taking Turd's lead so I'll let you continue with your typical one line insults.Nobody leads the Fireman...Nobody.

[cccasooner2]

Very bloody, NSFW.

http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003--abc-news-topstories.html

[sappstuf]

When do you assume your captaincy?

Of the USS Failwrong Jumpstoassumptions?

She is a fine ship. Or so I have heard.. I've never seen it.

[EnragedOUfan]

so where is this eyewitness? I have read nothing about a true eye witness. 2 dippers here.

After reading through your posts and responses to ictSooner7, did you actually think and put into thought before your post? Do you post on facts? Do you know how to research and look things up? Just curious because ictSooner7 owned you......

[EnragedOUfan]

1. What on God's green earth gave Zimmerman the impulse to run after Martin when a 911 dispatcher told him not too?

2. Where was Martin shot? In the front or in the back? I'm not for sure on where...I've read shot in the chest, but not for sure if this is correct.

3. Did Zimmerman really have time to **** his weapon? Did he have time to load a magazine? Was the weapon already loaded?

4. I can only see self defense in this scenario: Zimmerman chased Martin, approached him. Martin turned around and slugged him out of fear and anger. Zimmerman fell, Martin jumped on him or attempted to, but Zimmerman shot him. Or, Martin then turned around and ran, but Zimmerman shot him out of anger and fear as well, which to me is no longer self defense and instead cold blooded murder since Martin was running.

5. But after reading about Zimmerman's video of being brought into the police station just now and how he had no obvious signs of a broken nose or bloodied anything, things are about to get interesting.....

[sappstuf]

1. What on God's green earth gave Zimmerman the impulse to run after Martin when a 911 dispatcher told him not too?

2. Where was Martin shot? In the front or in the back? I'm not for sure on where...I've read shot in the chest, but not for sure if this is correct.

3. Did Zimmerman really have time to **** his weapon? Did he have time to load a magazine? Was the weapon already loaded?

4. I can only see self defense in this scenario: Zimmerman chased Martin, approached him. Martin turned around and slugged him out of fear and anger. Zimmerman fell, Martin jumped on him or attempted to, but Zimmerman shot him. Or, Martin then turned around and ran, but Zimmerman shot him out of anger and fear as well, which to me is no longer self defense and instead cold blooded murder since Martin was running.

5. But after reading about Zimmerman's video of being brought into the police station just now and how he had no obvious signs of a broken nose or bloodied anything, things are about to get interesting.....

The dispatcher never said any such thing. Read the transcript.

[Midtowner]

The dispatcher never said any such thing. Read the transcript.

Listen to the call.

[sappstuf]

Listen to the call.

Read the transcript.


911 dispatcher:

Are you following him?

Zimmerman:

Yeah.

911 dispatcher:

OK.

We don’t need you to do that.

That isn't a direction.. It is a suggestion.

[hawaii 5-0]

Read the transcript.



That isn't a direction.. It is a suggestion.



It's the old "Gee Mom, you told me not to eat all the cookies. You didn't say not to eat most the cookies" defense.


Lame.

Zimmerman lost his self-defense card when he left the safety of his SUV and pursued Martin on foot. He became a stalker.

5-0

[LiveLaughLove]

So you don't think that an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth hasn't been a part of due process in this Country? Seriously?

I think jumping to conclusions before ALL of the facts are in is not due process. I think the race hustlers have no place in society except to exploit things like this for their own power and greed. Sharpton is the worst of the lot and MSNBC sees fit to give the man a TV show.

I'll take Tawana Brawley for $500 Alex. He isn't interested in an eye for eye. He is interested in eyes on him.

Sadly, for Trayvon Martins sake it's become a circus. Heck, his own mother is even in one of the three rings now.

[LiveLaughLove]

It's the old "Gee Mom, you told me not to eat the cookies. You didn't say not to eat all the cookies" defense.


Lame.

Zimmerman lost his self-defense card when he left the safety of his SUV and pursued Martin on foot. He became a stalker.

5-0

Because you know ALL of the facts all the way from Hawaii. Very cognizant of you. I guess the police are just buffoons that can't see what you do, or racists that are covering for a whitey, well, semi-whitey?

[LiveLaughLove]

1. What on God's green earth gave Zimmerman the impulse to run after Martin when a 911 dispatcher told him not too?

2. Where was Martin shot? In the front or in the back? I'm not for sure on where...I've read shot in the chest, but not for sure if this is correct.

3. Did Zimmerman really have time to **** his weapon? Did he have time to load a magazine? Was the weapon already loaded?

4. I can only see self defense in this scenario: Zimmerman chased Martin, approached him. Martin turned around and slugged him out of fear and anger. Zimmerman fell, Martin jumped on him or attempted to, but Zimmerman shot him. Or, Martin then turned around and ran, but Zimmerman shot him out of anger and fear as well, which to me is no longer self defense and instead cold blooded murder since Martin was running.

5. But after reading about Zimmerman's video of being brought into the police station just now and how he had no obvious signs of a broken nose or bloodied anything, things are about to get interesting.....

Havent' heard anyone say he "ran" after him. You have a link to that?

The police said the evidence on the scene fit with Zimmerman and as many as 6 other eyewitnesses. I would say he was shot therefore in the front since he was on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into the cement (According to the witnesses)

The weapon almost assuredly had to be loaded already. No crime in that. It's legal if you have the proper permitting. Since they haven't charged him for that, I would say he does.

Zimmerman said he was attacked from behind as he was going back to his vehicle. Not sure of witnesses saw that part or not. Once more, he didn't run after or charge Martin (at least nowhere that I have read).

The 3 page police report listed him as having a bloody nose (possibly broken), and blood and grass on the back of his head.

Where did you read what you are sighting? It's very much at odds with everything I have read to this point.

[okie52]

Because you know ALL of the facts all the way from Hawaii. Very cognizant of you. I guess the police are just buffoons that can't see what you do, or racists that are covering for a whitey, well, semi-whitey?

It's against the law for a Haole or sepania to follow a Hawaiian in Hawaii, and if confronted,the hawaiian can beat the follower to death. People that live in Hawaii have a difficult time understanding US mainland laws.

[sappstuf]

It's the old "Gee Mom, you told me not to eat all the cookies. You didn't say not to eat most the cookies" defense.


Lame.

Zimmerman lost his self-defense card when he left the safety of his SUV and pursued Martin on foot. He became a stalker.

5-0

Lame.

I don't need you to respond.

[okie52]

Lame.

I don't need you to respond.

Cultural differences from a state that's in Asia.

[sappstuf]

Cultural differences from a state that's in Asia.

What in the heck are you doing up so early? Or late...

[OULenexaman]

After reading through your posts and responses to ictSooner7, did you actually think and put into thought before your post? Do you post on facts? Do you know how to research and look things up? Just curious because ictSooner7 owned you...... dip **** alert....Fireman has a nice shiny new ship waiting for you to board.

[jkjsooner]

Havent' heard anyone say he "ran" after him. You have a link to that?

We do know at one point that Martin ran from Zimmerman. Zimmerman said so in the 911 call. If you are only referring to the confrontation then I agree.



The police said the evidence on the scene fit with Zimmerman and as many as 6 other eyewitnesses. I would say he was shot therefore in the front since he was on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into the cement (According to the witnesses)


The lead investigator also wanted Zimmerman to be charged be he was overruled by the prosecutor - not because of Zimmerman's innocence but because they believed they didn't have neough to convict.


Once more, he didn't run after or charge Martin (at least nowhere that I have read).

Considering we know Martin was running from Zimmerman at one point, the only way Zimmerman could have kept up with him is by either running after him or following him in his car. Both are very threatening moves.


There's enough in Zimmerman's 911 call for me to conclude that Zimmerman's actions went way beyond anything I would consider reasonable. He became a vigilante and in my opinion went beyond any action that self defense laws were meant to protect (unless Martin produced a weapon).

If he's going to chase a kid around a neighborhood he should be man enough to defend himself without pulling his gun.

Zimmerman created a situation that would have made most reasonable people feel very threatened.


And before someone states otherwise, I'm not making any assumptions here that can't be ascertained from Zimmerman's own 911 call.

[Midtowner]

Read the transcript.

That isn't a direction.. It is a suggestion.

Grasping at straws, are we?

[sappstuf]

Grasping at straws, are we?

Grasping at straws? Please.

I know a thing or two about clear and concise orders... "Ok, we don't need you to do that" is nothing of the sort. He wasn't directed to do anything.

"Sir, do not follow him." That is an order.

He did a lot wrong that night, but he didn't receive direction from the operator, which means he couldn't have disregarded it. Saying he did is a stretch.

[cccasooner2]

That isn't a direction.. It is a suggestion.

It depends on what your definition of is is. I think that excuse was used before by some funny guy.

[hawaii 5-0]

Lame.

I don't need you to respond.


That's exactly what Zimmerman thought to the 911 person.

5-0

[jkjsooner]

Grasping at straws? Please.

I know a thing or two about clear and concise orders... "Ok, we don't need you to do that" is nothing of the sort. He wasn't directed to do anything.

"Sir, do not follow him." That is an order.

He did a lot wrong that night, but he didn't receive direction from the operator, which means he couldn't have disregarded it. Saying he did is a stretch.

Technically you are correct but the fact that you are so focused on such a technicality obfuscates the point that Zimmerman didn't follow the advice of the 911 operator.

Either way the 911 operator doesn't have authority to order someone so the difference is pretty much meaningless.


I'd bet if you had a run in with a law enforcement officer and he used passive language such as this I doubt he would listen to your pleas about it being a suggestion when you did what he asked you not to do. A judge might let you go if you actually had a recording to prove that he used suggestive language but the cop at the scene probably wouldn't see it the same way.

[SCOUT]

I have a question regarding the "stalking" everyone keeps talking about. If you pay someone to watch your neighborhood, don't you think they should? If the police tell him that he doesn't need to follow the person, that is probably contrary to what his employer has told him. I am not sure I would be willing to pay someone to stand out in our neighborhood with a cell phone and do nothing else. If there is a an unknown person wandering the streets, I think where he is going is pertinent information. The police may have been on the way, or frankly, they might not. 911 calls are prioritized like anything else. Zimmerman even says, "They always get away with this." Perhaps a non-response isn't unusual. Sure that is all speculation but so is most everything else in this thread!

I guess my basic question is, what do you think the job of a neighborhood watch/security guard should be?

[jkjsooner]

I have a question regarding the "stalking" everyone keeps talking about. If you pay someone to watch your neighborhood, don't you think they should?

Who's getting paid here? Zimmerman was a self appointed leader of his neighborhood watch from everything I've read. It wasn't an official position.

There's a big difference between neighborhood watch and a security guard. Security guards usually have some sort of official uniform. It is clear who they are what their role is.

I doubt it was clear at all to Martin what role Zimmerman had (or thought he had).


I think some of you guys misunderstand the role of a neighborhood watch.

[sappstuf]

Technically you are correct but the fact that you are so focused on such a technicality obfuscates the point that Zimmerman didn't follow the advice of the 911 operator.

Either way the 911 operator doesn't have authority to order someone so the difference is pretty much meaningless.


I'd bet if you had a run in with a law enforcement officer and he used passive language such as this I doubt he would listen to your pleas about it being a suggestion when you did what he asked you not to do. A judge might let you go if you actually had a recording to prove that he used suggestive language but the cop at the scene probably wouldn't see it the same way.

I'm not technically correct, I am correct.

And you are right the 911 operator doesn't have that authority. But there are about 20 posters on this board that think this all started when he didn't follow the direction of the 911 operator. I am happy to see that we agree that they are all wrong because there was no direction.

Legally, what does it matter that he didn't follow the advice if the advice had no legal authority? The case against him is weak.. I'm not trying to obsuscate anything. It already is.. I'm just pointing out what they think is clear, isn't.

[jkjsooner]

Legally, what does it matter that he didn't follow the advice if the advice had no legal authority? The case against him is weak..

You may be right about the case against him but in my opinion that's a failure of the law.

The more lenient aspects of self defense laws were not intended to apply to someone whose actions provoked the incident. No matter who you think is most at fault for provoking the incident, in my eyes there's no doubt that Zimmerman played a role.

If I got in my car and started following guys around my neighborhood it's not going to take long before I provoke a fight. It might be from a fight or flight instinct or it might be because I've seriously pissed the guy off. Either way, if all such fights ended in deadly force then I think we have a problem.

I think I'm going to go to a bar tonight and stare at some guy for as long as it takes to tick him off. When he comes at me I'm going to pull a gun and shoot him. How about that? Is that the society we want to live in?

Note: I'm not literally going to do that in case someone feels the need to contact authorities.

[sappstuf]

You may be right about the case against him but in my opinion that's a failure of the law.

The more lenient aspects of self defense laws were not intended to apply to someone whose actions provoked the incident. No matter who you think is most at fault for provoking the incident, in my eyes there's no doubt that Zimmerman played a role.

If I got in my car and started following guys around my neighborhood it's not going to take long before I provoke a fight. It might be from a fight or flight instinct or it might be because I've seriously pissed the guy off. Either way, if all such fights ended in deadly force then I think we have a problem.

I think I'm going to go to a bar tonight and stare at some guy for as long as it takes to pick him up. When he comes at me I'm going to pull a flesh gun and shoot him. How about that? Is that the society we want to live in?

Note: I'm not literally going to do that in case someone feels the need to contact authorities.

A stunning admission...

;)

[Frozen Sooner]

You will never be able to legislate out racism...

As each older generation dies out the amount of racism will decline...if someone hates blacks they will not change their mind until until they are pushing up daisies...

People still steal **** and murder people too.

[jkjsooner]

A stunning admission...

;)

I read the bolded part of my quote and you actually had me fooled into believing that I accidentally wrote that. I was about to go into full defensive mode. :-)

[Midtowner]

Grasping at straws? Please.

I know a thing or two about clear and concise orders... "Ok, we don't need you to do that" is nothing of the sort. He wasn't directed to do anything.

"Sir, do not follow him." That is an order.

He did a lot wrong that night, but he didn't receive direction from the operator, which means he couldn't have disregarded it. Saying he did is a stretch.

You're starting to sound like a defense attorney. Want to change careers?

[cccasooner2]

Looked like self defense to me.


http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/south-carolina-teen-brutal-soccer-attack-earns-assault-103322121.html

[jkjsooner]

Looked like self defense to me.


http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/south-carolina-teen-brutal-soccer-attack-earns-assault-103322121.html

I liked how the ref showed the red card at the end. Ya think?

The other girl should have pulled out a gun and shot her.

[okie52]

I liked how the ref showed the red card at the end. Ya think?

The other girl should have pulled out a gun and shot her.

Agreed.

[pphilfran]

I would have yelled she has had enough and then dialed 911 and waited for the police to arrive..

[Turd_Ferguson]

I would have yelled she has had enough and then dialed 911 and waited for the police to arrive..Yeah, well let's picture this scenario with nobody to come in and stop it...

[REDREX]

Al Sharpton is a joke----He sure likes to talk

[cccasooner2]

Another, but LA knows how to bring the house down. http://news.yahoo.com/911-caller-arrested-deadly-police-shooting-074541485.html

[Turd_Ferguson]

Another, but LA knows how to bring the house down. http://news.yahoo.com/911-caller-arrested-deadly-police-shooting-074541485.htmlAnother what?

[cccasooner2]

Another what?

Another heartwarming/heartworming story.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Another heartwarming/heartworming story.Instead of trying to be coy, why don't you say what you mean...

[sappstuf]

You're starting to sound like a defense attorney. Want to change careers?

Nah.. When I get back from Afghanistan, I think the Navy is sending me to Italy for 3 years. I will keep my day job.. :)

[Turd_Ferguson]

Nah.. When I get back from Afghanistan, I think the Navy is sending me to Italy for 3 years. I will keep my day job.. :)Thank you for your service and God bless.

[soonerhubs]

I just want to say how happy I am that an adulterous reverend had come to peach and race bait during these stressful times.

Perhaps Jesse Jackson should threaten to castrate Zimmerman. I mean isn't that what he said about our current President? That man does nothing but cast a pall of skepticism on any "cause" he endorses. He and Al Sharpton are the worst attention whores on this planet.

[StoopTroup]

I'm not technically correct, I am correct.

And you are right the 911 operator doesn't have that authority. But there are about 20 posters on this board that think this all started when he didn't follow the direction of the 911 operator. I am happy to see that we agree that they are all wrong because therhttp://www.ostrichheadinsand.com/images/ostrich_head_in_sand.jpge was no direction.

Legally, what does it matter that he didn't follow the advice if the advice had no leUgal authority? The case against him is weak.. I'm not trying to obsuscate anything. It already is.. I'm just pointing out what they think is clear, isn't.

I'm with Turd on the Thanking you for your Service. Seeing folks continue to serve our Country when they may or may not agree with the Current Commander in Chief is a sign that America isnt dead or dying or in trouble. I had a close friend that did a good portion of his Servce in Sicily. Enjoy your time there and take care of yourself.

As far as me being one of the 20 that think Zimmerman shouldn't have followed Martin. It's just how the Law is here in Oklahoma. I understand the Law in Florida is different but seeing this turn into bloodshed for absolutely no reason is pretty sad. Whether or not you think Zimmerman was right to act as he did, isn't it pretty obvious now that there is a huge disconnect between folks in America and it isn't going to make Zimmerman's Life better now that Martin hasn't gotten away with whatever he thought was going to happen. Martin is dead and Zimmerman is a household name over night that has divided Black and White overnight.

I also do think a lot of folks don't put themselves in a good situation but the Streets of America should remain to be free. I do feel a good portion of this disconnect is that there isn't mandatory service for Americans in the Military. A good portion of tradegies like these would possibly stop as people will learn to have a bit more respect for other people. Zimmerman wasn't afraid of Martin because he was armed and he observed Martin long enough to obviously get the feeling he had the power in this situation. By the accounts we are hearing now is that he was wrong and when Martin. Confronted Zimmerman about him tracking him, he ended up having to shoot Martin to save himself from an a$$ whooping and possibly having his own gun turned on him. Right or wrong, Zimmerman wasn't very smart IMO. He should know how to protect himself better than to end up in a struggle like he did. Now he will probably need to disappear.

Just my opinion but the neighborhood watch kind of turned against him as it seems some folks in the neighborhood didn't know who he was either. Let's say some of the folks that decided to call in and not follow these guys were just as worried about a Hispanic Man in the Neighborhood wielding a gun. Zimmerman should have protected his own property and at the very least just stayed with his property. If Martin had drawn Zimmerman away from his Home purposely, Zimmerman left his stuff as an easy target. Zimmerman seemed to care about property more than Human Life and he's darn lucky he's not dead IMO.

He should have left it to the Police that the operator had told him were on the way. They are trained to handle these situations. Now Zimmerman has made himself a target whether you or anyone likes it or not.

This isn't Afghanastan. It's the Streets of America. We shouldn't be trying to turn our streets into a battleground.

[Sooner_Bob]

SKITTLES DON'T KILL. CRAZY HONKIES WITH OMG EVIL SIDEARMS KILL.



And pencils make spelling mistakes . . . ;)

[soonercruiser]

Nah.. When I get back from Afghanistan, I think the Navy is sending me to Italy for 3 years. I will keep my day job.. :)

Italy!!!
Need family?
PM me.
:tennis:

[soonercruiser]

I just want to say how happy I am that an adulterous reverend had come to peach and race bait during these stressful times.

Perhaps Jesse Jackson should threaten to castrate Zimmerman. I mean isn't that what he said about our current President? That man does nothing but cast a pall of skepticism on any "cause" he endorses. He and Al Sharpton are the worst attention whores on this planet.

I been sitting back and thinking (not too hard) about this activity in FL.
I really believe that these two clowns are now not only causing more racial division in the country, but also inciting racial hatred towards a goal of (at least) riots in the big cities.

I've been in College and post grad school, in the military, had & have many Black associates, friends, and patients that I do free care for........
**BUT....if they keep up this envy and race-baiting....I really believe that there will be a big backlash in the white and Hispanic communities in the future. This will ultimately be counter-productive for the Black community.

No one likes a complainer! And, many folks like myself have had our fill of it!
Many are sick and tired, of people being sick and tired....
:nonchalance:

[Pricetag]

Responsible people should be allowed to carry guns to protect themselves. George Zimmerman is not a responsible person.

This is as much an issue about respecting the gun as it is anything else. IMO (and I don't own any firearms), you can't allow that gun to embolden you to do anything you wouldn't, were it not there. Once you go down that path, you're headed for trouble.

I don't think George Zimmerman would have approached someone like Trayvon Martin without his gun, and he was not prepared for what happened when it got out of hand.

I don't blame Trayvon Martin for becoming nervous/scared/angry about his being followed. Fisticuffs are not justified without an overt threat or a first strike by the other party, IMO. I doubt that George Zimmerman was that much of a threat, or that he threw the first punch. The possibility of the other party being armed is yet another reason to avoid any kind of fight if at all possible.

At what point in a fist fight does one fear for his or her own life? For me, unless the other guy has his hands on my throat, I don't think I fear for my life, but who knows?

IMO, a firearm gives the person in possession of it so much power over an unarmed person that the onus is on the armed person not to mess up, because his mess up is so much more potentially dangerous. He bears the blame if he is even close to responsible for creating a situation in which he uses it, even if he uses it in fear of his own life.

I don't think this is murder, but I do think Mr. Zimmerman ought to pay some sort of criminal price for the end result. Something like what happens to a drunk driver who ends up killing someone. It doesn't matter whether he meant for it to happen or not, there is a price to pay. The possibility of a civil judgment rings hollow, IMO, because I don't think there will be anything left to collect after defense is paid for in whatever trials happen.

[Sooner_Bob]

So when does ****ing coon not mean ****ing coon???

I'm not counting when some raccoon sneaks onto your back porch and steals the fish you just caught.


Spin and deflect away !!!!

I think this was a hate crime, pure and simple.

5-0

I hate . . . hate crimes.

A crime is a crime and one should not hold a higher punishment because of the race of those involved . . .

[Sooner_Bob]

Trouble is that the current law in Florida makes it likely that even if he is charged, he'll be acquitted. The state is going to have to prove by clear and convincing evidence that Zimmerman did not fear death or serious bodily harm. Most other states require you to retreat if you reasonably can before using deadly force. Florida law actually allowed this idiot to follow Martin through the neighborhood and pursue him until he shot him.

When you start pursuing someone you become the aggressor . . . . this law won't protect Zim IMO.

[Sooner_Bob]

Still, under this law, Zimmerman is most likely a free man.

How?

[yermom]

Responsible people should be allowed to carry guns to protect themselves. George Zimmerman is not a responsible person.

This is as much an issue about respecting the gun as it is anything else. IMO (and I don't own any firearms), you can't allow that gun to embolden you to do anything you wouldn't, were it not there. Once you go down that path, you're headed for trouble. I don't think George Zimmerman would have approached someone like Trayvon Martin without his gun, and he was not prepared for what happened when it got out of hand.

I don't blame Trayvon Martin for becoming nervous/scared/angry about his being followed. Fisticuffs are not justified without an overt threat or a first strike by the other party, IMO. I doubt that George Zimmerman was that much of a threat, or that he threw the first punch. The possibility of the other party being armed is yet another reason to avoid any kind of fight if at all possible.

At what point in a fist fight does one fear for his or her own life? For me, unless the other guy has his hands on my throat, I don't think I fear for my life, but who knows?

IMO, a firearm gives the person in possession of it so much power over an unarmed person that the onus is on the armed person not to mess up, because his mess up is so much more potentially dangerous. He bears the blame if he is even close to responsible for creating a situation in which he uses it, even if he uses it in fear of his own life.

I don't think this is murder, but I do think Mr. Zimmerman ought to pay some sort of criminal price for the end result. Something like what happens to a drunk driver who ends up killing someone. It doens't matter whether he meant for it to happen or not, there is a price to pay. The possibility of a civil judgment rings hollow, IMO, because I don't think there will be anything left to collect after defense is paid for in whatever trials happen.

i agree with this for the most part, except, from reports he was bashing his head into the concrete. if that was the case, i'd say he should be afraid for his life

the other thing is, if you are responsibly carrying, you should be even more vigilant to avoid confrontation than normal.

if you set aside the race-fueled and anti-gun controversy, really there is probably a lot for society to learn from this case

[AlboSooner]

i agree with this for the most part, except, from reports he was bashing his head into the concrete. if that was the case, i'd say he should be afraid for his life

the other thing is, if you are responsibly carrying, you should be even more vigilant to avoid confrontation than normal.

if you set aside the race-fueled and anti-gun controversy, really there is probably a lot for society to learn from this case

Agree with this.

The race bait, and anti-gun rhetoric muddied the waters, in case that is clear in one aspect: Treyvon's death was not warranted.

As a gun owner I always pray I never ever ever have to use it on anybody. I don't think I would even use it if I was in danger. I would only use it to protect my family from violence. I am not going to kill someone over a wallet, or a car.

[olevetonahill]

i agree with this for the most part, except, from reports he was bashing his head into the concrete. if that was the case, i'd say he should be afraid for his life

the other thing is, if you are responsibly carrying, you should be even more vigilant to avoid confrontation than normal.

if you set aside the race-fueled and anti-gun controversy, really there is probably a lot for society to learn from this case
Agreed Dave. Take out all the hate from both sides and lets look at this rationally

[jumperstop]

I hate . . . hate crimes.

A crime is a crime and one should not hold a higher punishment because of the race of those involved . . .

A hate crime is not just a crime, it's a crime against someone else because of their race. I will say most media labeled hate crimes aren't actually hate crimes though. They are usually just a crime involving the death of a minority...

[cleller]

Agreed Dave. Take out all the hate from both sides and lets look at this rationally

But don't forget to make a quick buck or two.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/happened-trayvon-martin-hoodies-cafe-press-144936770.html

[Midtowner]

When you start pursuing someone you become the aggressor . . . . this law won't protect Zim IMO.

The law specifically does not require Zimmerman to retreat. If, as Zimmerman's story goes, he cornered Martin and then Martin attacked, basically, either Martin or Zimmerman would have been privileged at that time to use deadly force because it'd be reasonable to fear death or serious bodily harm.

That's kind of my main point. Any law which allows both folks involved in a conflict to use deadly force is a poorly written law. Hell.. unless Florida law specifically bans dueling, then two folks doing the whole pistols and ten paces at high noon thing would both be privileged to pull the trigger.

[Sooner_Bob]

A hate crime is not just a crime, it's a crime against someone else because of their race. I will say most media labeled hate crimes aren't actually hate crimes though. They are usually just a crime involving the death of a minority...

We'll just have to agree to disagree . . . trying to stipulate a reason for a crime and labeling it worse due to a person's race isn't getting us anywhere.

Well, except further perpetuation of racial division around the country . . .

There are tons of folks around who make their living off of this division and would freak if we could all actually get along.

[Sooner_Bob]

The law specifically does not require Zimmerman to retreat. If, as Zimmerman's story goes, he cornered Martin and then Martin attacked, basically, either Martin or Zimmerman would have been privileged at that time to use deadly force because it'd be reasonable to fear death or serious bodily harm.

That's kind of my main point. Any law which allows both folks involved in a conflict to use deadly force is a poorly written law. Hell.. unless Florida law specifically bans dueling, then two folks doing the whole pistols and ten paces at high noon thing would both be privileged to pull the trigger.

I haven't read it so I guess it could.

[yermom]

We'll just have to agree to disagree . . . trying to stipulate a reason for a crime and labeling it worse due to a person's race isn't getting us anywhere.

Well, except further perpetuation of racial division around the country . . .

There are tons of folks around who make their living off of this division and would freak if we could all actually get along.

i don't know how it's really worded, but the intent is that the crime is to send a message

like a white guy beating up a black guy that's trying to vote to discourage other blacks from voting, etc...

that part i can agree with. that's a bigger deal than just one person assaulting another.

if a white guy beats up a black guy and happens to use the N-word on him in the process, it's not really the same thing to me

again, i'm speaking as yermom, not as a lawyer here

[Tulsa_Fireman]

As a gun owner I always pray I never ever ever have to use it on anybody. I don't think I would even use it if I was in danger. I would only use it to protect my family from violence. I am not going to kill someone over a wallet, or a car.

Not me. KILL WHITEY

[TUSooner]

The law specifically does not require Zimmerman to retreat. If, as Zimmerman's story goes, he cornered Martin and then Martin attacked, basically, either Martin or Zimmerman would have been privileged at that time to use deadly force because it'd be reasonable to fear death or serious bodily harm.

That's kind of my main point. Any law which allows both folks involved in a conflict to use deadly force is a poorly written law. Hell.. unless Florida law specifically bans dueling, then two folks doing the whole pistols and ten paces at high noon thing would both be privileged to pull the trigger.

I think you are incorrect. If Z instigated by following M, he cannot 'stand his ground' but must withdraw or retreat, and the force against him must be fairly strong. (I forget the exact language.) Frozen Sooner quoted the Fla. self defense statute. It is different and more specific than the "stand your ground" statute .
I agree with your general criticism of the "s y g " law, however. It tends to encourage Wild West shootouts, which already happen between dope dealers (but curiously not among alcohol merchants -- go figure).

[soonercruiser]

Responsible people should be allowed to carry guns to protect themselves. George Zimmerman is not a responsible person.This is as much an issue about respecting the gun as it is anything else. IMO (and I don't own any firearms), you can't allow that gun to embolden you to do anything you wouldn't, were it not there. Once you go down that path, you're headed for trouble.


People like this, blabbing off there big mouths on something like this, without having all the facts are as guilty as any murderer. Watching the drive-by and LW media does not give you all the facts. No news source will have all the facts.
The Scripture even says that destroying a person's reputation is as good as murder.
Your opinion is just a valid as Jesse Jack-SON....and Al No-So-Sharpton.
Valid? NOT!
Let the facts become known, reviewed by a jury of his peers, then we will see.
But, hopefully not see "justice" like we did with O.J. Simpson!
:dispirited:

[soonercruiser]

Not me. KILL WHITEY

Please do not be so honest, as to post words that several other posters wish they could say!

[soonercruiser]

I think you are incorrect. If Z instigated by following M, he cannot 'stand his ground' but must withdraw or retreat, and the force against him must be fairly strong. (I forget the exact language.) Frozen Sooner quoted the Fla. self defense statute. It is different and more specific than the "stand your ground" statute .
I agree with your general criticism of the "s y g " law, however. It tends to encourage Wild West shootouts, which already happen between dope dealers (but curiously not among alcohol merchants -- go figure).

I think that you are wrong! (Just my opinion - no diff than yours)
If Zimmerman was a recognized member of a neighborhood watch, recognized by the local police (possibly even trained by the police auxilary - like here in OKC), he does have authority to "follow" within the "Watch" area.
We have no facts of what occurred after that. The only eye witness reports the kid on top pummeling Zimmerman.
That I heard a 911 recording of.

[StoopTroup]

As a gun owner I always pray I never ever ever have to use it on anybody. I don't think I would even use it if I was in danger. I would only use it to protect my family from violence.

I understand the protecting your Family but if you can't understand that you are a part of your Family and deserve to be protected....maybe you should sell the guns. I'd really rather see you think that statement through though so that your Family doesn't end up burying you because you hesitated when you knew you were in danger.

Honestly, if you have a gun and so does your attacker, make sure you play the game right.

[hawaii 5-0]

Why did the Sheriff and the Prosecuting Attorney quit?


5-0

[LiveLaughLove]

Why did the Sheriff and the Prosecuting Attorney quit?


5-0

Politics. It happens all of the time that people are forced to quit/resign over political pressure from a perceived wrong.

[hawaii 5-0]

Politics. It happens all of the time that people are forced to quit/resign over political pressure from a perceived wrong.


Thanks. I never heard.

5-0

[LiveLaughLove]

Thanks. I never heard.

5-0

You're welcome. I thought not since you asked.

[soonercruiser]

Why did the Sheriff and the Prosecuting Attorney quit?


5-0

I'd like to know more about this angle too.
If I'm like most of the posters here, I would make some conjecture based on my bias.
(Ah, what the heck!)
But, it also smells like someone WAS PUTTING PRESSURE ON THEM TO ARREST THE GUY, just "for looks".
And, maybe they refused, based on the interpretation of the state law, and the initial lack of evidence otherwise.
Again....just conjecture, as I haven't seen much news on this.

[Pricetag]

Flip flopper. If you're going to shout to the heavens how no one should talk without all the facts, then quit talking yourself.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Flip flopper. If you're going to shout to the heavens how no one should talk without all the facts, then quit talking yourself.Get over yourself...

[cleller]

Is anyone in this video are racist, intolerant, or simply non-objective? (scroll to bottom)

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/toure-apologizes-piers-morgan-meltdown-152149682.html

[Whet]

Oh, look it is all a contrived political frenzy:

OBAMA'S ALINSKY STRATEGY: WHO'S NEXT? (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/04/01/Obamas-Alinsky-Strategy-Whos-Next)

“If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.” The death of Trayvon Martin is a tragedy--as was the death of a 6-year-old girl named Aliyah Shell (photo above), caught in the crossfire of gang violence over St. Patrick’s Day weekend in Chicago.But Aliyah's story received very little coverage, despite the event being more recent than the Martin tragedy, and despite the fact that it happened in President Barack Obama’s very own Chicago on a weekend when 49 people were shot and 10 others were killed (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-weekend-mayhem-0320-20120320,0,3600888.story).
No mention of Aliyah from the president. No public outpouring for a young mother who sat untangling her daughter’s hair as shots rang out. Nothing. And yet...
“If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”
Why? Why would the president weigh in on this specific case at this specific time?
It’s not about wrong or right. It’s not about justice. It’s not about Trayvon Martin.

“The despair is there; now it’s up to us to go in and rub raw the sores of discontent, galvanize them for radical social change.”- Saul Alinsky
An interesting quote to consider, from the man who shaped the minds of those who shaped President Obama.
Now consider Obama’s former chief of staff Rahm Emanuel’s notorious statement: “You never want a serious crisis to go to waste.”
The meaning is the same. It is calculating and it is dangerous, part of a bigger picture--a multi-faceted war to divide America for the sole purpose of securing Obama's re-election and subsequent radical social change.
Look at the contrived conflicts on the left wing's political chessboard:

Move 1 Occupy Wall Street: the (self-appointed) 99% versus the 1%
Move 2 Contraceptive/abortifacient mandates: government versus religion
Move 3 Sandra Fluke: women versus conservatives (supposedly)
And now…

Move 4 Trayvon Martin: black versus "white" (so-called)
This is not complicated. President Obama is organizing. It’s that simple, and it’s straight out of the radical playbook:

“Once you organize people, they’ll keep advancing from issue to issue toward the ultimate objective: people power. We’ll not only give them a cause, we’ll make life goddamn exciting for them again — life instead of existence. We’ll turn them on...” – Saul Alinsky
This is not about Trayvon Martin. This is about divide and conquer. Hope and Change has been replaced with Us vs. Them. This about pitting Americans against Americans.
The despair is there... so, what’s Move 5?

[soonercruiser]

This!

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/SoonerCruiser_photos/Political/ObamaifIhadason.jpg

[pphilfran]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/02/nbc-news-trayvon-martin-internal-investigation_n_1396442.html

NBC News has launched an internal investigation into a story that ran on the "Today" show about the killing of Florida teenager, Trayvon Martin.

The Washington Post was the first to report news of the investigation.

The internal probe will investigate the editing completed on the audio recording of the 911 call George Zimmerman, the man who shot Martin to death, made to police minutes before he took action. The "Today" version of the call makes it sound as though Zimmerman volunteered the information that Martin was black. In actuality, the 911 officer asked if the "suspicious person" Zimmerman was calling about was "black, white or Hispanic."

News of Martin's death sparked a national outcry after it was reported that Zimmerman was not arrested nor thoroughly investigated after he shot Martin to death. The victim's family and activists have called for Zimmerman's arrest, claiming that Martin was racially profiled. Zimmerman, a self-appointed neighborhood watch volunteer, claimed he shot Martin in an act of self defense. Martin was walking home through a gated community in Sanford, Florida after visiting his father. He was carrying a bag of Skittles and iced tea.

The coverage of Martin's case has caused some conservative pundits to criticize the media for rushing to judgment about Zimmerman before necessary facts have surfaced. Ann Coulter compared George Zimmerman critics to the KKK, and Fox News pundit Liz Trotta criticized African American journalists who shared their personal reactions to news of Martin's death.

The omission of the 911 officer's question in "Today's" story paints a significantly different picture. NBC News told the Washington Post that they "launched an internal investigation into the editorial process surrounding this particular story."

[Turd_Ferguson]

Yeah, I'm sure they'll come back with an apology...like they care. They did it on purpose and got the effect they wanted...

I read an article yesterday about a speech pattern know it all...whatever they're called. Two of them, hired by the victim, say's that the recording of the screams show it to be a 52% probability it wasn't Zimmerman. They couldn't test Trayvon's voice pattern, as they didn't have one.

So, aren't they basically saying it's a 50/50 chance it was or wasn't him?

Give me a ****'n break.

[jumperstop]

Yeah, I'm sure they'll come back with an apology...like they care. They did it on purpose and got the effect they wanted...

I read an article yesterday about a speech pattern know it all...whatever they're called. Two of them, hired by the victim, say's that the recording of the screams show it to be a 52% probability it wasn't Zimmerman. They couldn't test Trayvon's voice pattern, as they didn't have one.

So, aren't they basically saying it's a 50/50 chance it was or wasn't him?

Give me a ****'n break.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57407964-504083/screams-on-911-call-not-george-zimmerman-forensic-voice-experts-say/


The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.


Nowhere does it say there was a 52% that it wasn't him...It says that the computer determined that the sample voice (wherever that came from) was only a 48% percent match to the voice on the 911 call...And nowhere it that article did it say they were paid for by the family. Although in all fairness you seem to care a lot more about this...

[OULenexaman]

It's been over a frickin month already........time to move the **** along.

[Turd_Ferguson]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57407964-504083/screams-on-911-call-not-george-zimmerman-forensic-voice-experts-say/



Nowhere does it say there was a 52% that it wasn't him...It says that the computer determined that the sample voice (wherever that came from) was only a 48% percent match to the voice on the 911 call...And nowhere it that article did it say they were paid for by the family. Although in all fairness you seem to care a lot more about this...Whatever Einstein...

[jkjsooner]

Whatever Einstein...

Can't handle someone pointing it out when you're wrong? Think you can draw incorrect conclusions without being challenged?

jumperstop pretty much rendered your whole rant meaningless.

[C&CDean]

24 ****ing pages on this POS punk? Y'all should be ashamed. Seriously.