WE MUST 'BRAINWASH' PEOPLE ON GUNS

[Whet]

Holder is a radical, one of many in the Obama administration:

Breitbart.com has uncovered video from 1995 of then-U.S. Attorney Eric Holder announcing a public campaign to "really brainwash people into thinking about guns in a vastly different way."

Holder was addressing the Woman's National Democratic Club. In his remarks, broadcast by CSPAN 2, he explained that he intended to use anti-smoking campaigns as his model to "change the hearts and minds of people in Washington, DC" about guns.
"What we need to do is change the way in which people think about guns, especially young people, and make it something that's not cool, that it's not acceptable, it's not hip to carry a gun anymore, in the way in which we changed our attitudes about cigarettes."
Holder added that he had asked advertising agencies in the nation's capital to assist by making anti-gun ads rather than commercials "that make me buy things that I don't really need." He had also approached local newspapers and television stations, he said, asking them to devote prime space and time, respectively, to his anti-gun campaign.
Local political leaders and celebrities, Holder said, including Mayor Marion Barry and Jesse Jackson, had been asked to help. In addition, he reported, he had asked the local school board to make the anti-gun message a part of "every day, every school, and every level."
Despite strict gun control efforts, Washington, DC was and remains one of the nation's most dangerous cities for gun violence, though crime has abated somewhat since the 1990s.
Holder went on to become Deputy Attorney General in the Clinton administration, and currently serves as Attorney General in the Obama Administration.


http://content.bitsontherun.com/previews/vvy0FSoM-svqBtzyp

[OU_Sooners75]

Yeah, he thinks guns are so bad, he was willing to sign off on selling guns to drug lords in Mexico!

[cleller]

Yeah, he thinks guns are so bad, he was willing to sign off on selling guns to drug lords in Mexico!

That was a real bright spot on his resume. "Able to assess long-range implications of decisions."

[Curly Bill]

No surprise there. It's been known for a long time that Holder is rabidly anti-gun.

[KantoSooner]

Can I be a hunter, gun owner, 2nd Amendment rights supporter....and still not feel comfortable with every drunken moron in my town 'packing iron' and truculent about it?

How about this: gun rights but, it you commit a crime and are even in possession of a gun while doing so, we give you a minimum of, oh, say five years in the slam to think about it?

[Midtowner]

1995... meh.

[okie52]

Can I be a hunter, gun owner, 2nd Amendment rights supporter....and still not feel comfortable with every drunken moron in my town 'packing iron' and truculent about it?

How about this: gun rights but, it you commit a crime and are even in possession of a gun while doing so, we give you a minimum of, oh, say five years in the slam to think about it?


Isn't that already the case?

[OU68]

1995... meh.

Really? Ever heard of Fast and Furious - the name Brian Terry mean anything to you?

[Midtowner]

What Holder said in 1995 and what that has to do with an ill-advised ATF operation which happened between 2006 and 2011 are two totally unrelated things.

-- so meh.

[OU68]

What Holder said in 1995 and what that has to do with an ill-advised ATF operation which happened between 2006 and 2011 are two totally unrelated things.

-- so meh.

Ill-advised? Now that's funny.

[KantoSooner]

Isn't that already the case?

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Last I was involved in the discussion was back in the mid 1980's.

[Midtowner]

Ill-advised? Now that's funny.

Perhaps it was a slight understatement.

[Midtowner]

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Last I was involved in the discussion was back in the mid 1980's.

It is the case with many crimes. Maybe most or all.

[OU68]

Actually, I hope that Obama/Holder continue to stonewall the congressional investigation of the DOJ - I would laugh my arse off if this turns out to be Obama's Watergate. Oh wait, no one died in Watergate...

[OU_Sooners75]

What Holder said in 1995 and what that has to do with an ill-advised ATF operation which happened between 2006 and 2011 are two totally unrelated things.

-- so meh.

You got your lips wrapped around Obama's twang pretty tightly...you turning blue yet from lack of oxygen?

[Curly Bill]

You got your lips wrapped around Obama's twang pretty tightly...you turning blue yet from lack of oxygen?

Heh

[Midtowner]

You got your lips wrapped around Obama's twang pretty tightly...you turning blue yet from lack of oxygen?

So can you provide a nexus between what Holder said in 2005 and the ATF eff-up in an operation which happened between '06 (before Holder was even in office) and 2011? Or are you just going to pass out personal attacks 'cuz you got nothing else?

[OU68]

So can you provide a nexus between what Holder said in 2005 and the ATF eff-up in an operation which happened between '06 (before Holder was even in office) and 2011? Or are you just going to pass out personal attacks 'cuz you got nothing else?

I know you're trying to deflect this by pointing out that Bush also had an operation "like" this going - I think the difference is the magnitude of what Holder approved, the stank got so bad that local agents felt it necessary to blow the whistle.

[Midtowner]

I know you're trying to deflect this by pointing out that Bush also had an operation "like" this going - I think the difference is the magnitude of what Holder approved, the stank got so bad that local agents felt it necessary to blow the whistle.

I'm not trying to deflect anything. Certainly F&F was a monumental effup. The connection, however, to what Holder said in 1995 is, however, unestablished by anyone. I asked for someone to provide a nexus. I haven't seen it.

[cleller]

So can you provide a nexus between what Holder said in 2005 and the ATF eff-up in an operation which happened between '06 (before Holder was even in office) and 2011? Or are you just going to pass out personal attacks 'cuz you got nothing else?

According to CBS News, Operation Fast and Furious began in Sept 2009, 6 months after Holder became AG.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-31727_162-10009697.html

At any rate, its Holder's responsibility. His probable lies to Congress about what he knew and when seem darn serious to me. To the media, not so much.

[OU68]

After 9/11 he said this:
In addition to background checks on all gun sales, records used to check the eligibility of an individual to purchase a firearm should include whether the potential buyer is on an FBI or other law enforcement watch list of suspected terrorists. …

Congress must take immediate action to close these two gaping loopholes in the law. Our national security requires it. And the public should demand it.

So, If I want to sell a shotgun to my adult child, I should have to pay for him to go through a background check?

[Midtowner]

According to CBS News, Operation Fast and Furious began in Sept 2009, 6 months after Holder became AG.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-31727_162-10009697.html

At any rate, its Holder's responsibility. His probable lies to Congress about what he knew and when seem darn serious to me. To the media, not so much.

And what the hell does that have to do with what he said in '95?

I don't deny that Holder here looks incompetent at best and culpable at worst. I just see zero nexus between '95 and this except for Republican talking point memos.

[OU68]

"What we need to do is change the way in which people think about guns, especially young people, and make it something that's not cool, that it's not acceptable, it's not hip to carry a gun anymore, in the way in which we changed our attitudes about cigarettes." Establishes Holder as anti-gun. If you can't connect the dots between this and moving a couple thousand guns across the border without any way to track them on the other side, well, there isn't much else to say.

[Midtowner]

"What we need to do is change the way in which people think about guns, especially young people, and make it something that's not cool, that it's not acceptable, it's not hip to carry a gun anymore, in the way in which we changed our attitudes about cigarettes." Establishes Holder as anti-gun. If you can't connect the dots between this and moving a couple thousand guns across the border without any way to track them on the other side, well, there isn't much else to say.

There's nothing to say because there is absolutely no nexus. Next fake outrage please...

[cleller]

And what the hell does that have to do with what he said in '95?

I don't deny that Holder here looks incompetent at best and culpable at worst. I just see zero nexus between '95 and this except for Republican talking point memos.

Just keeping the record straight. You had depicted Fast and Furious as something that began prior to Holder becoming AG, and deflected his responsibility.

I'm still stuck on the irony of unleashing hundreds of guns into the hands of the very people our agents are trying to combat. Then trying to duck the blow-back.

[Turd_Ferguson]

There's nothing to say because there is absolutely no nexus. Next fake outrage please...Did you just learn the word "Nexus" today? I guess the word "Connection" is beneath you...

[Midtowner]

Just keeping the record straight. You had depicted Fast and Furious as something that began prior to Holder becoming AG, and deflected his responsibility.

Yes, it's been going on since '06 and it hasn't been successful. Not the most brilliant thing for the AG to not do anything about, but this operation was quite a bit beneath him bureaucratically. It was an ATF operation, not a DOJ one. He definitely should have stopped it, but I'd stop short of saying he's responsible for the whole mess. I mean, maybe in a 'buck stops here' sense, but did he design and implement the program and have intimate knowledge of the facts on the ground? No one is even suggesting he did.


I'm still stuck on the irony of unleashing hundreds of guns into the hands of the very people our agents are trying to combat. Then trying to duck the blow-back.

I'm not sure how that's irony, but it's kind of a typical and expected thing for a politician to do. I'll think much worse of Holder when Clinton and Gingrich go ahead and take the blame for passing the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

[OU68]

[QUOTE=Midtowner;3463027]Yes, it's been going on since '06 and it hasn't been successful. Not the most brilliant thing for the AG to not do anything about, but this operation was quite a bit beneath him bureaucratically. It was an ATF operation, not a DOJ one. He definitely should have stopped it, but I'd stop short of saying he's responsible for the whole mess. I mean, maybe in a 'buck stops here' sense, but did he design and implement the program and have intimate knowledge of the facts on the ground? No one is even suggesting he did.

Then why is he stonewalling congress?

"Terry Frieden of CNN reported that Holder coughed up “hundred of pages” of documents. Assuming that means Holder did not produce more than 1,000 documents, the Justice Department is still far from compliance with lawful congressional subpoenas.

Republican Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, has subpoenaed 80,000 pages of documents concerning Fast and Furious. Holder has only provided about 7,000 pages. He has, however, given all 80,000 to his internal investigator — DOJ’s Office of Inspector General.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/17/friday-document-dump-holders-doj-releases-more-on-fast-and-furious/#ixzz1parn1XNw

[Midtowner]

Then why is he stonewalling congress?

Couldn't tell you. Any answer you or I had to such a question would be pure speculation.

[OU68]

Couldn't tell you. Any answer you or I had to such a question would be pure speculation.

Actually I hope they continue this strategy - the closer to November this finally breaks, the better for ABO.

[diverdog]

Actually I hope they continue this strategy - the closer to November this finally breaks, the better for ABO.

I wouldn't hold my breath. Holder may resign but that will be it.

[OU_Sooners75]

So can you provide a nexus between what Holder said in 2005 and the ATF eff-up in an operation which happened between '06 (before Holder was even in office) and 2011? Or are you just going to pass out personal attacks 'cuz you got nothing else?

There is no need to define or provide a nexus between anything.

Holder is just as crooked as any other politician in this country!

And for any person to defend anything Obama at this point in his Presidency is just a brainwashed turd that cannot think for him or her self.

The fact that the Media has had field days against the right and their many gaffs and **** ups, while barely mentioning the gafs and **** ups by the left is appalling.

Why cant we have a news agency be straight down the damn middle and provide people with news and nothing more?

[sappstuf]

Ill-advised? Now that's funny.

You know what else was ill-advised? The ATF had actually caught the guy that ended up killing Brian Terry.. Caught him red-handed..


Inspectors said they found illegal materials including an "AK type, high capacity drum magazine loaded with 74 rounds of 7.62 ammunition underneath the spare tire." They also noted ledgers including a "list of firearms such as an AR15 short and a Bushmaster" and a "reference about money given to 'killer.'"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57400267-10391695/prime-gunwalking-suspect-was-held-by-atf-but-released-documents-show/


They let him go if he promised to cooperate.. They never heard from him again.... Well. Until he killed Brian Terry with other illegal guns.

That wasn't the only embarrassment either...


In a related case also run by ATF's Phoenix office, CBS News has reported a grenade parts trafficker named Jean Baptiste Kingery was caught smuggling 114 disassembled grenades in a tire in 2010, but was released. The same prosecutors faulted in Fast and Furious allegedly refused to bring charges saying grenade parts are "novelty items" and the case "lacked jury appeal." Mexican authorities arrested Kingery a year later at a stash house with enough materials for 1,000 grenades.

[Midtowner]

There is no need to define or provide a nexus between anything.

Sure there is. You want to title a thread after a 12-year-old speech and relate that to something which occurred between 2006 and 2011.

Should Holder resign? I don't know his reasons for not being immediately cooperative with Congress. It could be that he doesn't know and wants to complete an internal investigation first. If he's simply not cooperating to not cooperate, there are plenty of other folks who could fill his shoes and he needs to step down.

[OU68]

Sure there is. You want to title a thread after a 12-year-old speech and relate that to something which occurred between 2006 and 2011.

Should Holder resign? I don't know his reasons for not being immediately cooperative with Congress. It could be that he doesn't know and wants to complete an internal investigation first. If he's simply not cooperating to not cooperate, there are plenty of other folks who could fill his shoes and he needs to step down.

OK, let's start over - the thread is "Brainwash people on guns" - Holder's ATF allows thousands of weapons to flow to Mexican drug cartels at the height (in terms of violence) of the Mexican drug war with the intent of making Americans (like you) believe that gun dealers on the US border were supplying all those weapons to the drug cartels. Capice?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

This scares the beejebus out of me... I will get my concealed carry befor ethe summer is out... Probably add many items to my collection while I can...

[Midtowner]

OK, let's start over - the thread is "Brainwash people on guns" - Holder's ATF allows thousands of weapons to flow to Mexican drug cartels at the height (in terms of violence) of the Mexican drug war with the intent of making Americans (like you) believe that gun dealers on the US border were supplying all those weapons to the drug cartels. Capice?

Where do you get the intent from? Holder did not design, implement or oversee the program. He was aware of it, he could have stopped it, but he didn't. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of similarly situated operations going on in law enforcement which he is briefed on.

The ATF tends to get involved in high-risk/high-reward situations and often screws the pooch (Waco, anyone?) This was one of those times.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Hoder had any intent to use the findings of this or any other event to "brainwash" people against guns. There's just weak inference to something he said 12 years ago and further inference that he had more control over a program than any evidence even remotely suggests he did.

It's just the typical Republican BS talking point made-up story of the day from a few days ago.

1) Take something which happened.
2) Take it wildly out of context
3) Extrapolate facts from the out of context assumptions which have no supporting evidence
4) OUTRAGE!!!

And the moonbats will howl.

[OU68]

It's just the typical Republican BS talking point made-up story of the day from a few days ago.

1) Take something which happened.
2) Take it wildly out of context
3) Extrapolate facts from the out of context assumptions which have no supporting evidence
4) OUTRAGE!!!

And the moonbats will howl.

Yeah, Obama/Pelosi/Holder/Sotomayor/Bloomberg/Soros - there's no pattern there.

[Midtowner]

Yeah, Obama/Pelosi/Holder/Sotomayor/Bloomberg/Soros - there's no pattern there.

They all have vowels in their name?

Now you just look insane.

[Turd_Ferguson]

They all have vowels in their name?

Now you just look insane.Pot...meet Kettle.

[OU68]

They all have vowels in their name?

Now you just look insane.

So, you don't know those folks stand on gun control? Thanks for playing, end of discussion. :congratulatory:

[Midtowner]

So, you don't know those folks stand on gun control? Thanks for playing, end of discussion. :congratulatory:

They may be in favor of it. So what? Does that prove a conspiracy?

I'm in favor of gun control to a point as well. I guess that means I have regular conference calls with Mr. Soros?

[AlboSooner]

Looking to buy a Ruger SR9c, anybody have any experience with it?

[soonercruiser]

Unfortunately, along with the "ill-advised" program, and the "at best incompetence" of Holder, there is more smoke.
Does one really think that these people are really that stupid???
Or, could it be somehow a "ill-conceived" plan gone wrong????

There are plenty of folks out "there" that surmise that the anti-gun rhetoric of the Clintons (specifically Hillary'
s recent actions with the UN), Holder, etc. ....that there is a long-term plan to have some really bad stuff take place on our side of the border that would set off overwhelming public outrage to call for anti-gun legislation in Congress.

Until proven as total incompetence, and publicly admitted to by Holder and the ATF, I can only assume that this is as good a any "theory" theory out there.
Besides...it fits with the overall progressive plan to bring down the Republic, by way of gutting the Second Amendment.
With all the "transparency" in this administration, we won't know for a generation.

[OU68]

Unfortunately, along with the "ill-advised" program, and the "at best incompetence" of Holder, there is more smoke.
Does one really think that these people are really that stupid???
Or, could it be somehow a "ill-conceived" plan gone wrong????

There are plenty of folks out "there" that surmise that the anti-gun rhetoric of the Clintons (specifically Hillary'
s recent actions with the UN), Holder, etc. ....that there is a long-term plan to have some really bad stuff take place on our side of the border that would set off overwhelming public outrage to call for anti-gun legislation in Congress.

Until proven as total incompetence, and admitted to by Holder and the ATF, I can only assume that this is as good a theory any any theory out there.
Besides...it fits with the overall progressive plan to bring down the Republic, by way of gutting the Second Ammendment.

Sooner - you left out Pelosi, Reid, Bloomberg and Soros.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Besides...it fits with the overall progressive plan to bring down the Republic, by way of gutting the Second Amendment(sp).

Sheeesh.

"This is how the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a whimper."

Apathy amongst the masses will destroy us LOOOOOONG before veiled threats against the II Amendment.

[OU68]

Sheeesh.

"This is how the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a whimper."

Apathy amongst the masses will destroy us LOOOOOONG before veiled threats against the II Amendment.

Or "Four More Years" :playful:

[hawaii 5-0]

I'm all for 2nd Amendment Rights.

People should have the right to bear arms and protect themselves.

They don't have the right to stalk and kill someone because of the color of their skin.

5-0

[KABOOKIE]

People also don't have a right to start beating people up because someone ask them what are they doing here. Don't take a bag of skittles to a gun fight.

[soonercruiser]

I am withholding my opinion.
But, I heard an audio of an eye witness.... to a scuffle on the ground with the kid on top.
It was a neighbor looking out the window.

And, of course the usual suspects are crying racism...Al Not-So-Sharpton, Jesse....and the Black Panthers are planning a trip to make a citizens arrest.
I wonder if they will just show up with battons, like they did in Philly at the voting place?
I guess that Blacks will now have to hate middle-class Hispanics too.
(sarcasm)

[cccasooner2]

Ill-advised? Now that's funny.

I think he meant ATF had poor legal advise. Maybe Midtowner is saying he would have advised differently.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Let's see, '95 was two years after Ruby Ridge and Waco, which Holder had a hand in, and people were murdered in cold blood. Is that close enough? Add in Fast and Furious and you have an anti-second amendment *******.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

They don't have the right to stalk and kill someone because of the color of their skin.

5-0

Didn't happen like you "think". Everything points to self defense and that Trayvon was the aggressor. Zimmerman was walking away after losing Trayvon and it was Trayvon that attacked Zimmerman. The forensics mentioned proves Zimmerman was on his back with injuries to the face and the back of the head. Plus, Trayvon is becoming a more and more uncivil person with the latest information about his suspensions, drugs and other uncivil actions.

[StoopTroup]

Everything points to self defense and that Trayvon was the aggressor.

Everything? That's a lot of stuff. Even I don't think everything is pointing that direction. Honestly....there wasn't even a crime and Zimmerman was calling 911. Why call 911 because someone is walking through your neighborhood. I don't even stop to follow him after he passes my house. Now if I was looking out for someone who was out of town or a House Alarm in the Neighborhood went off.....I'd call 911. Seriously though...maybe Zimmerman might have been better off listening to the 911 operator and stop following Trayvon?

I'm not to much for going after Zimmerman as Florida is going to have plenty of these problems once it's OK to call 911 and say someone is suspicious and then you shoot them. I hope they get that worked out down there and they don't start some BS changing laws in States that have better laws than Florida.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Stoop,

Zimmerman was on neighborhood patrol. He is supposed to view and follow suspicious people in his gated neighborhood. Now what hasn't been said, and I wonder, did Trayvon live in this gated neighborhood or was he just short cutting? Also, what part of Zimmerman's back being on the ground and Trayvon banging his head on the concrete have you not read or listened to. There is a witness to this. If this was me, I was getting my head busted and I had access to a self defense gun, I would shoot as well.

[olevetonahill]

Stoop,

Zimmerman was on neighborhood patrol. He is supposed to view and follow suspicious people in his gated neighborhood. Now what hasn't been said, and I wonder, did Trayvon live in this gated neighborhood or was he just short cutting? Also, what part of Zimmerman's back being on the ground and Trayvon banging his head on the concrete have you not read or listened to. There is a witness to this. If this was me, I was getting my head busted and I had access to a self defense gun, I would shoot as well.

Bro, TM was stayin at his Dads GFs house when this happened, He was stayin there cause he had been kicked out of school for Pot