When Does Life Begin ??

[soonercruiser]

Reference the arguments about the state's "Personhood" Bill....here is an interesting editorial from Saturday's Daily Oklahoman.

http://newsok.com/article/3654132


Physician asks, are some humans not?
BY DOMINIC PEDULLA, M.D. Oklahoman 0 Published: March 3, 2012

I still remember the first concept taught in my medical school embryology textbook: “Human life begins when the sperm and egg unite, creating a new human organism; human life begins at conception.” This fundamental fact of biology is tenacious and relentless — unchangeable despite all the ideology, deception and technocratic thinking in the world.

And it seems to me this is precisely the point of Senate Bill 1433’s attempt to restore the correct understanding of when life begins and what human life really is. Human beings are human from the moment human life begins — from the first moment the human organism exists. To be considered human you must be a human being, right? And clearly you are that from the moment human existence begins, right? Well then, after the union of the sperm and egg, if all you have is a human being (a human organism), is it really so shocking to say “person”?

A lot might be said on the reasons it has become necessary to restore a correct understanding of the nature and origins of human life. But perhaps it suffices only to say that just as in times past the law sought to enfranchise certain classes of human beings that had been unjustly deprived of their basic human rights, now it’s time to re-enfranchise — re-humanize, really — the unborn human being in the eyes of the public.


Certain practices have dulled our consciences to the need to respect the most innocent, vulnerable and defenseless human beings in our midst — the unborn — and the Personhood Act strives to gently remind us to do just that. Far from criminalizing anything or anyone, this bill represents more of a decriminalizing; it helps us all realize the vulnerable and even quasi-criminal status of the unborn in our society, many of whom already carry a veritable “death sentence.”

Our good and honorable lawmakers ought to be lauded for speaking so loudly on behalf of those effectively without a voice.

So it takes neither a rocket scientist nor a Ph.D. embryologist to realize that this bill is a good thing, something that ought to be supported. I’m in favor of it because I’m in favor of anything that reminds us not to trample on the dignity of any class of human beings, no matter how useful someone might consider them.

Yes, human organisms are human beings. They are so from the beginning of their biological existence. They deserve the respect worthy of persons.

Pedulla, of Edmond, is medical director of the Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center.

Our good and honorable lawmakers ought to be lauded for speaking so loudly on behalf of those effectively without a voice.

[hawaii 5-0]

When I saw that phrase 'good and honorable lawmakers' I knew it was bogus.

I think we need to see Dr. Dominic Pedulla's birth certificate.


5-0

[soonercruiser]

When I saw that phrase 'good and honorable lawmakers' I knew it was bogus.

I think we need to see Dr. Dominic Pedulla's birth certificate.


5-0

A respectful reference!
Something that we all could benefit from using more.
:dispirited:

[cccasooner2]

I would have thought the Bible would have been more specific about such an important issue.

[Curly Bill]

I'm not weighing in on this one, but I look forward to some heated debate and a little bit of name-calling out of this thread.

[badger]

I like that doctors are being taught about the first stages of life, but do we need a bill to teach the rest of us?

Can't doctors simply make this a universally known truth rather than legislators who mostly have no medical training whatsoever (mostly, not all. I know there's some doctors and dentists and nurses mixed in there occasionally) saying it via a bill?

[pphilfran]

When cells are dividing it is alive...

The better question is when human life begins...

[TUSooner]

I'm going to say....


4 o'clock

[pphilfran]

I'm going to say....


4 o'clock

Nice...

I say 5 pm on a Friday....

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I'm not weighing in on this one, but I look forward to some heated debate and a little bit of name-calling out of this thread.

Whore

[pphilfran]

Nag!

[Curly Bill]

Butt-munch!

[rock on sooner]

Butt-munch!
I thought you were going to wait for the name calling!

[jkjsooner]

Can't doctors simply make this a universally known truth rather than legislators who mostly have no medical training whatsoever

It doesn't take any more than a high school biology class to know that a fertilized egg is alive and has the full genetic code to reproduce into a full functioning adult. You don't need doctors to weigh in on this and if you do want experts you can do a lot better than someone with an M.D.

The real question isn't one of science but one of philosophy. Is a single cell or a grouping of a few undifferentiated cells as much a human as an embryo that has a developing nervous system? Does a cell that has the complexity of bacteria constitute a living human being ? Is potential enough to define what is a human being?

What about genetic tests where you take a single cell from a multi-cell embryo? Have you created an identical twin and then destroyed the twin?

Science can provide insight but ultimately these are questions of philosophy, religion, and ethics.

[Curly Bill]

I thought you were going to wait for the name calling!

STEP started it! So...I kinda waited.

[TUSooner]

Nice...

I say 5 pm on a Friday....

Well, I get off at 4, so when I hear the church bells at St. Pat's start to chime, I cheer up nicely. :)

[LiveLaughLove]

These ethisists say human life doesn't even begin, after birth. So it's still ok to abort. I mean, why not? It's always just been an imaginary line as to where it really begins anyway.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/healthscience/2012/March/Ethicists-Argue-for-After-Birth-Abortion/

[Ike]

What about genetic tests where you take a single cell from a multi-cell embryo? Have you created an identical twin and then destroyed the twin?



Or in the case of a chimera, which one died?

[SoonerAtKU]

According to Disney, it begins when you defy your phony mother and blackmail a dashing rogue to help you out of your tower to see some floating lights.

[ictsooner7]

Reference the arguments about the state's "Personhood" Bill....here is an interesting editorial from Saturday's Daily Oklahoman.

http://newsok.com/article/3654132

It has to be implanted into the uterus to be viable. The right wants to claim life starts at conception so they can outlaw birth control as well as abortion.

Implantation and Pregnancy
Fertilization occurs when a sperm penetrates the egg - and this typically takes place in one of the fallopian tubes. The fertilized egg then travels to uterus and implants in the uterine lining. At this point, the egg - and developing placenta - begin to release hCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin). The presence of hCG will help facilitate the continued production of progesterone - essential for a fertile, hospitable environment for the implanted egg. The hormone hCG will increase - and show up in a woman's blood and urine - making hCG a prime marker for pregnancy detection. Home pregnancy tests function by detecting hCG in a woman's urine.

[KantoSooner]

I prefer to think that life begins when the man (of course) decides to have intercourse with the woman (it has nothing to do with her intent, as women, it is well known, are simply passive vessels, breathlessly awaiting injection of his manly essence).
Thus, men, being pigs in the main, ironically should count as thousands of lives each; since most of us have that intent, oh baby yeah!, many times a day.

[LiveLaughLove]

I prefer to think that life begins when the man (of course) decides to have intercourse with the woman (it has nothing to do with her intent, as women, it is well known, are simply passive vessels, breathlessly awaiting injection of his manly essence).
Thus, men, being pigs in the main, ironically should count as thousands of lives each; since most of us have that intent, oh baby yeah!, many times a day.

Just say no to drugs.

[KantoSooner]

Yeah, but I really couldn't resist injecting (ahem) some levity. Such a heavy topic and so guaranteed to cause friction.

[LiveLaughLove]

Yeah, but I really couldn't resist injecting (ahem) some levity. Such a heavy topic and so guaranteed to cause friction.
Agree with that. And it goes nowhere.

[oudavid1]

Like begins when you hear "Tress Way in kickoff formation for the Sooners".

[cccasooner2]

Agree with that. And it goes nowhere.

It's a kinder-gentler ObamaFest board.

[OhU1]

I once trolled on a feminist board and posted something to the effect that a women should have the right to choose up to a day after the baby is born. Someone actually responded that this "might be going too far."

[StoopTroup]

A sperm is alive. A woman's egg is alive. Neither are a baby. They are the building blocks that if they are introduced to each other can lead to a baby.

For me, the answer is once the egg is fertilized....you have a baby on the way. A fertilized egg cannot protect itself. It is protected by the woman who carries it. Once the process of a fertilized egg is taking place your instincts as a human kick in. Many Women get morning sickness, others it doesn't hit them until they notice that they have missed their period. In most the cases I truly think most Women change as soon as they think they might be pregnant.

Now, how do they change? Do some suddenly feel they are with child or do they freak out knowing that bastard they slept with knocked them up and they are going to need to talk with them as to how their lives have just changed.

Sometimes people immediately feel they have been blessed and others feel they have made a huge mistake. When you feel you have made a mistake...this is important Men so listen close....it means that you had no intentions in your heart to get this Woman pregnant. You never took the time to get to know her and you now are in a very difficult position as if you tell her that you want to do the
Right thing....it doesn't exactly sound like Love at First Sight. Matter of fact probably all it was was pure lust. Do not make an offer of marriage to her in order to make it right. If she decides to have the baby, do not think automatically that she is trying to trap you either. She may just not want to have an abortion. If a Woman carries the baby to term, you may experience feelings that you want to be closer to the child. If you do, you have the right to do so even if she is dating someone else.

There is also another way these things go. Some people immediately think that the right thing to do is go see a Doctor and have that unholy freak of nature that will ruin both of your lives sucked out, killed and disposed of like it was a tumor. It is not a tumor. It is a child. Avoid this at all costs unless you are psychologically able to handle it like it is a tumor. You will need to really do some soul searching in order to convince yourself that you are doing the right thing because you aren't. You are killing a small child. You not only
are killing a small child you are trying to convince yourself that you aren't and then asking someone else to vacuum up your mistake from that whore you blew your wad into.

Once you have disposed of the child you have broken one of God's Commandments. Once it hits you...don't freak. Get some counseling. You're not the first to make this mistake and you won't be the last but you probably will change the way you view abortion unless you are a total psychopath.

Abortion is wrong. Avoid it at all costs. There are plenty of people who can't
have kids and would love the chance to raise your child as their own. Please don't kill your child. It wasn't a mistake. It might not be a gift or blessing to you but it will be for someone.

[badger]

I prefer to think that life begins when the man (of course) decides to have intercourse with the woman (it has nothing to do with her intent, as women, it is well known, are simply passive vessels, breathlessly awaiting injection of his manly essence).
Thus, men, being pigs in the main, ironically should count as thousands of lives each; since most of us have that intent, oh baby yeah!, many times a day.

The reason why schools have to teach abstinence during sex ed.

[SoonerorLater]

Dr. Pedulla needs to go back to med school. Life doesn't necessarily begin with the union of an egg and sperm. One can retrospectively go back and say that every viable fetus or baby began with the union of a sperm and egg. But one can't say every union of an egg and sperm equals life.

The vast majority of people have never heard of a molar pregnancy. Also, most spontaneous abortions are non viable genetic issues with the fetus.

No but looking to the future we can't say which will and which won't so we exercise diligence on the side of caution.

[soonercruiser]

It has to be implanted into the uterus to be viable. The right wants to claim life starts at conception so they can outlaw birth control as well as abortion.

Implantation and Pregnancy
Fertilization occurs when a sperm penetrates the egg - and this typically takes place in one of the fallopian tubes. The fertilized egg then travels to uterus and implants in the uterine lining. At this point, the egg - and developing placenta - begin to release hCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin). The presence of hCG will help facilitate the continued production of progesterone - essential for a fertile, hospitable environment for the implanted egg. The hormone hCG will increase - and show up in a woman's blood and urine - making hCG a prime marker for pregnancy detection. Home pregnancy tests function by detecting hCG in a woman's urine.

Ever heard of a tubal pregnancy ict??
Quick! Goggle it! Cut & Paste a response.

[soonercruiser]

Dr. Pedulla needs to go back to med school. Life doesn't necessarily begin with the union of an egg and sperm. One can retrospectively go back and say that every viable fetus or baby began with the union of a sperm and egg. But one can't say every union of an egg and sperm equals life.

The vast majority of people have never heard of a molar pregnancy. Also, most spontaneous abortions are non viable genetic issues with the fetus.

Is this the plumber's opinion???
I really can't help that you don't agree with what Dr. Pedulla was taught in med school.
I do remember what I was taugh in dental school. We did have at least one year of common classes with the meds back then...including embryology.......just so we knew what we were talking about.

[sappstuf]

Yeah, but I really couldn't resist injecting (ahem) some levity. Such a heavy topic and so guaranteed to cause friction.

Mmmmm friction...

[StoopTroup]

I truly think if we could get politics, Religious Entities and The SCOTUS to step aside that Researchers and Doctors could vary well come up with
a very good explanation of what exceptions and conditions would possibly warrant a Woman being in danger and allowing an Abortion to take place. It is indeed unfortunate that with all of the facts and knowledge we have regarding all of this that we can't come up with an outcome that could please Politicians, Religious Entities and The SCOTUS and put this topic to bed once and for all.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

When Uncle Sam e-verifies you.

[hawaii 5-0]

So shall we outlaw IUDs?

They create a hostile enviroment for the fertilized ovum. The ovum doesn't implant itself into the uterus and is discarded with the next female period.

5-0

[soonercruiser]

I truly think if we could get politics, Religious Entities and The SCOTUS to step aside that Researchers and Doctors could vary well come up with
a very good explanation of what exceptions and conditions would possibly warrant a Woman being in danger and allowing an Abortion to take place. It is indeed unfortunate that with all of the facts and knowledge we have regarding all of this that we can't come up with an outcome that could please Politicians, Religious Entities and The SCOTUS and put this topic to bed once and for all.

It's too late, Stoop!
The cat is out of the bag - Genie is out of the bottle!

There are soooooo many "in-vested" interests that the "Truth" will be hard to find.

Just think of the $Billions that the drug companies make every year pushing the Pill. They entice the docs with bennies to get them to continue using it.
Just look at the $Billions that are being promised for embryonic research.
And, believe me as working on the OUHSC, there is a lot of scrambling for research $$ going on.

We have friend who works for one of the biggest drug companies - and was a sales person back when the pill was being developed.
He told us that at the point that very significant side effects were being recognized during their research, the company merely cut the dosage down and placed it on the market.

[okie52]

When Uncle Sam e-verifies you.

LOL.

For illegals, for sure.

[jkjsooner]

I truly think if we could get politics, Religious Entities and The SCOTUS to step aside that Researchers and Doctors could vary well come up with
a very good explanation of what exceptions and conditions would possibly warrant a Woman being in danger and allowing an Abortion to take place. It is indeed unfortunate that with all of the facts and knowledge we have regarding all of this that we can't come up with an outcome that could please Politicians, Religious Entities and The SCOTUS and put this topic to bed once and for all.

This seems like a dangerous proposition. What if they exclude some rare circumstance? Would the doctors be forced to allow the mother to die because it's not one of the predefined exceptions?

This would be micromanaging the medical profession. Why not just state that if the doctor feels the mother is at risk than he can end the pregnancy?

[jkjsooner]

There are plenty of people who can't
have kids and would love the chance to raise your child as their own.

That is good advice now. However, before Roe vs. Wade this wasn't the case at all. So if we outlawed abortions we could easily end up back in a situation where we have a surplus of orphans.

Not making a pro-abortion statement. I'm not saying killing is more morally acceptable than putting kids in orphanages. Just adding bits of info.

[ictsooner7]

A sperm is alive. A woman's egg is alive. Neither are a baby. They are the building blocks that if they are introduced to each other can lead to a baby.

For me, the answer is once the egg is fertilized....you have a baby on the way. A fertilized egg cannot protect itself. It is protected by the woman who carries it. Once the process of a fertilized egg is taking place your instincts as a human kick in. Many Women get morning sickness, others it doesn't hit them until they notice that they have missed their period. In most the cases I truly think most Women change as soon as they think they might be pregnant.

Now, how do they change? Do some suddenly feel they are with child or do they freak out knowing that bastard they slept with knocked them up and they are going to need to talk with them as to how their lives have just changed.

Sometimes people immediately feel they have been blessed and others feel they have made a huge mistake. When you feel you have made a mistake...this is important Men so listen close....it means that you had no intentions in your heart to get this Woman pregnant. You never took the time to get to know her and you now are in a very difficult position as if you tell her that you want to do the
Right thing....it doesn't exactly sound like Love at First Sight. Matter of fact probably all it was was pure lust. Do not make an offer of marriage to her in order to make it right. If she decides to have the baby, do not think automatically that she is trying to trap you either. She may just not want to have an abortion. If a Woman carries the baby to term, you may experience feelings that you want to be closer to the child. If you do, you have the right to do so even if she is dating someone else.

There is also another way these things go. Some people immediately think that the right thing to do is go see a Doctor and have that unholy freak of nature that will ruin both of your lives sucked out, killed and disposed of like it was a tumor. It is not a tumor. It is a child. Avoid this at all costs unless you are psychologically able to handle it like it is a tumor. You will need to really do some soul searching in order to convince yourself that you are doing the right thing because you aren't. You are killing a small child. You not only
are killing a small child you are trying to convince yourself that you aren't and then asking someone else to vacuum up your mistake from that whore you blew your wad into.

Once you have disposed of the child you have broken one of God's Commandments. Once it hits you...don't freak. Get some counseling. You're not the first to make this mistake and you won't be the last but you probably will change the way you view abortion unless you are a total psychopath.

Abortion is wrong. Avoid it at all costs. There are plenty of people who can't
have kids and would love the chance to raise your child as their own. Please don't kill your child. It wasn't a mistake. It might not be a gift or blessing to you but it will be for someone.

No you're wrong. It has to be implanted in the uterine lining.


Implantation and Pregnancy
Fertilization occurs when a sperm penetrates the egg - and this typically takes place in one of the fallopian tubes. The fertilized egg then travels to uterus and implants in the uterine lining. At this point, the egg - and developing placenta - begin to release hCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin). The presence of hCG will help facilitate the continued production of progesterone - essential for a fertile, hospitable environment for the implanted egg. The hormone hCG will increase - and show up in a woman's blood and urine - making hCG a prime marker for pregnancy detection. Home pregnancy tests function by detecting hCG in a woman's urine.

[jkjsooner]

No you're wrong. It has to be implanted in the uterine lining.

I said it before but it needs to be repeated. The part of the scientific process that is relevant is trivial. You have an egg that gets fertilized and then is implanted in the ovary.

What you consider "a human life" is less a matter of science and more a matter of philosophy.

[ictsooner7]

I said it before but it needs to be repeated. The part of the scientific process that is relevant is trivial. You have an egg that gets fertilized and then is implanted in the ovary.

What you consider "a human life" is less a matter of science and more a matter of philosophy.

It has to be implanted into the uterine lining not the ovary. Ovary is where the eggs are released from. Once it is implanted into uterine lining an estimated 31 percent of implanted embryos later miscarry. Around 24 weeks is considered viable. The right wants to go back as early as possible to say its human life so they can impose their religious beliefs on us and outlaw contraception.

[jkjsooner]

It has to be implated into the uterine lining not the ovary. Ovary is where the eggs are released from.

That's what I meant. Okay, it's a trivial concept for those other than myself.

(If I had a dollar for every time I've said ovary instead of uterus I'd be, well, worth a few dollars. What's worse is my wife sent me out for tampons the other day and I came back with maxi pads.)

Anyway, my point remains that the question about what constitutes a human being (and that is the real question) is not really one of science. Science plays a role of course but it goes well beyond science.

[Ike]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/life-begins-at-conception-vs-life-begins-at-40,11556/


Point
Life Begins At Conception
By Marilyn Brewster, American Right To Life League

Life begins at the moment of conception. To say otherwise is not only to deny the word of God, but to defy science. An abortion takes the life of a living person, whether the procedure occurs in the first week of pregnancy or the last.

Some say abortion merely destroys the "potential" for life. Yet there is no point during the entire nine-month gestation period when the developing fetus is fundamentally different from the child that is ultimately born. A child in the embryonic stage may not have the physical appearance of a newborn baby, but the genetic material that will determine that child's sex, hair color and eye color is present from the time he or she is what a pro-abortion advocate would rather you look at as "a mass of undifferentiated cells."

Medical research shows that a baby's heart begins beating by Day 25, and electroencephalographic evidence demonstrates that a baby's brain is already functioning by the end of the sixth week. Still, neither of these checkpoints in early fetal development acceptably mark the beginning of life, for they are just points along a continuum of development--a continuum that starts the moment the egg is fertilized.

So how can the government dictate at what point an abortion can be performed? How can anyone say that at 24 weeks and 6 days, a child is not a viable human being, but at 25 weeks it is? The answer is simple: It's a human being from the start!

An unborn child is not part of a woman's body. It is a separate being, albeit one that depends on his or her mother for protection. Is there anyone who would argue that a mother cannot be held accountable for the life and death of an infant in her care? By the same token, a mother should be held responsible for the life of a child from the point of conception--the point at which life begins.

Counterpoint
Life Begins At 40!
By Irene Hasselbeck, Forty And Loving It

I'm sorry, but I must strongly disagree with Ms. Brewster. Life begins at 40!

For anyone out there about to turn the big four-oh and dreading it, let me assure you: I myself just hit the milestone earlier this year and, like a bottle of fine wine, I'm only getting better with age. As far as I'm concerned, 40 is when life really begins!

The truth is, you're only as old as you feel. And I've never felt better. Sure, gravity may be starting to kick in here and there, and the boobs may be a bit lower than back when I was in college, but I can still turn heads when I want to. And besides, I more than make up for it in wisdom and life experience! Oh, the things I know now that I didn't when I was younger! And more importantly, I know what I want, and I'm not afraid to get it.

And heck, I'm in some pretty good company. Among the beautiful ladies to turn 40 recently are Madonna, Sharon Stone, Jamie Lee Curtis and Michelle Pfeiffer. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't think any of these fabulously sexy women are retiring to the old folks' home, sitting in a rocking chair and knitting. Don't turn in your cards at middle age... The game has just begun to get interesting!

Okay, so I'm no spring chicken anymore. But I'm certainly no old hen, either! There's nothing holding me back from enjoying the best years of my life. I've paid my dues, and now it's time to sit back and enjoy the benefits. The mortgage is paid off, and within the next five years, the kids will have all moved out. For the first time in years, I'm free! My husband Chuck and I have the resources to float down the river of life with smiles on our faces.

As far as I'm concerned, it's only halftime, and as you know, the final two quarters of the game are always the most exciting!

So if you're nearing 40 and not looking forward to it, hear me out: A woman over 40 can do anything a younger woman can, only better! The way I see it, I'm twice as smart as I was when I was 20... and I've got a much higher credit limit! I am 40, hear me roar!