Saints bounty program

[jk the sooner fan]

no idea if this has been discussed here

interesting article on the Saints bounty program for injuries inflicted on other players.......amazing contrast given the fact that there are quite a few retired/ex NFL-ers suing the league for injuries

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/17545489/nfl-saints-bounty-program-paid-defenders-for-vicious-hits

i'll be curious to see how the league handles this

[swardboy]

Greg Williams is the Rams new DC....but not for long I think. Fisher is facing his first real test as head coach there.

The Saints are going to get hammered: Head coach turns his head, GM doesn't heed owner's directive to clean it up. Not good.

[VA Sooner]

Nasty business this NFL is. Going to be outrage throughout the league and you can bet revenge on the Saints.

[badger]

I'm a closet wrestling fan, so I read Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson's book like 10 years ago and it mentions his days of playing football at Miami. There was a booster that would talk to the defense before games about the bounties on the opposing players for the biggest hits on them, such as FSU's Charlie Ward.

So... in a nutshell, like the NFL twitter world is saying, there have always been bounties and not just in the NFL. It's just now they're getting caught. Whoops.

[hawaii 5-0]

I'm a closet wrestling fan, so I read Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson's book like 10 years ago and it mentions his days of playing football at Miami. There was a booster that would talk to the defense before games about the bounties on the opposing players for the biggest hits on them, such as FSU's Charlie Ward.

So... in a nutshell, like the NFL twitter world is saying, there have always been bounties and not just in the NFL. It's just now they're getting caught. Whoops.


Makes sense to me. Just surprising it took so long to come to light.

5-0

[BoulderSooner79]

I have to think this is common in the league or else it could not have gone on for so long. Players move between teams every season, so one would think ex-players would talk. Especially players that got cut or traded against their will.

[jk the sooner fan]

yeah i think the sentiment is common - but with money attached to it?

[cccasooner2]

no idea if this has been discussed here.....

i'll be curious to see how the league handles this

I'll be iinterested in the civil lawsuits against the Saint's organization by say a Kurt Warner. Although "The league absolved Saints owner Tom Benson of any blame, but said the investigation showed Payton and general manager Mickey Loomis knew about the bounty program.", I think the attorneys will run with the GM guilt. Should be fun for all those unemployed attorneys. :)

[Eielson]

It's not something I like to hear, and the NFL should move to stop these kinds of things, but if the hits were legal, I don't think much should come of it. Something will, though. I think this idea is pretty common. I think I remember hearing the Ravens had something like this on Mendenhall when they actually ended his season.

Illegal hits that cause injury should be punished severely, but I feel that way regardless of whether or not there was a bounty involved.

[AlboSooner]

"There has always been behavior like this" doesn't suffice as an answer to why was this allowed, and how will the league deal with this.

[SoonerorLater]

I think this largely an issue created by the information age. I would think not only is this widespread it's been going on for a long time. In this respect Football is a lot like sausage. You just want it served up on a plate in front of you. You don't want to see how it's made.

[StoopTroup]

I'm surprised Chris Simms didn't sue OU for the abuse he took from us every year in the Cotton Bowl. We PWNED him back then. Good Times. :D

As much as I don't really care for Whorns, I did feel bad for Chrissy when he injured his spleen at Tampa Bay. That was brutal.

[StoopTroup]

In this respect Football is a lot like sausage. You just want it served up on a plate in front of you. You don't want to see how it's made.

I've gotten close enough to see how the NFL makes its sausage. You are right but I will say this....for everything that might turn your stomach there still is the other half of the process that makes it special and keeps many folks sinking their teeth into it.

I think they are real good at balancing their brand and keeping folks hungry for it. It's to bad that they don't try to make it so good that you don't care how it's made. When or if they ever are able to do that again....they will really be able to say they are America's Game.

[Scott D]

The interesting footnote to this story is that now the NFL is investigating the Washington Redskins for the four years prior to the timeline of their Saints investigation. The person at the center of that investigation? Yep. Greg Williams again.

[cccasooner2]

The interesting footnote to this story is that now the NFL is investigating the Washington Redskins for the four years prior to the timeline of their Saints investigation. The person at the center of that investigation? Yep. Greg Williams again.

Gee, I guess that would make him sorry at least twice.

[5noubus]

This just made me sick. The article I read said so much $ for putting a specific player out of the game and so much $$ for that player being "carted off".
It was so obvious in the playoff game against farve that it was ridiculous.
I think the same motivation could be created by saying so much $ for each sack without trying to kill or severely injure players. I'm sure there is some form of this in college football - gotta be a a way to stop it.

[jk the sooner fan]

so does the NFL use this sort of thing defending itself against the players lawsuit for injuries?

[Eielson]

This just made me sick. The article I read said so much $ for putting a specific player out of the game and so much $$ for that player being "carted off".
It was so obvious in the playoff game against farve that it was ridiculous.
I think the same motivation could be created by saying so much $ for each sack without trying to kill or severely injure players. I'm sure there is some form of this in college football - gotta be a a way to stop it.

They should have been punished severely for that regardless of whether or not there was a bounty. That was ridiculous.

[Aries]

I think the same motivation could be created by saying so much $ for each sack without trying to kill or severely injure players.

Interestingly, that already violates league rules as well. Even if the money comes from other players, it is considered to violate cap rule spending.

[badger]

Is it the information age, or is it the fact that these players have an average career length of three seasons and have absolutely reason to keep their mouths shut when the NFL stops feeding their bank accounts to the tune of hundreds of thousands (usually millions) of dollars?

Coaches get to stay in the pro game much longer than players do. Perhaps coaches would be wise to remember this next time they do something that might have repercussions after they unceremoniously cut/trade/??? the veterans in the offseason.

[Breadburner]

This has been going on for years.....

[picasso]

Just another reason to hate the Saints.

[ashley]

This has been common for many teams for years and years.. It is just beer money. Plus many teams pay a hundred toe fumbles caused, recoveries, tackles behind the 20 on kickoff's and on and on. Players don't think it's a big deal at all.

[Blue]

Just another reason to hate the Saints.

Who dat gonna break dem legs!? Who dat?

Black and Gold Superbowl!

[GDC]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. It's football.

[Scott D]

This has been common for many teams for years and years.. It is just beer money. Plus many teams pay a hundred toe fumbles caused, recoveries, tackles behind the 20 on kickoff's and on and on. Players don't think it's a big deal at all.

that's not quite the same thing as paying $10k to the guy who knocks an opposing qb out of the game.

[ashley]

that's not quite the same thing as paying $10k to the guy who knocks an opposing qb out of the game.
Yes it is the same thing. But, I will admit if the words injure was used, and it apparently was, it was wrong. They will be hammered badly.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Why doesn't the NFL just change the game to 2 hand touch if they are worried about lawsuits? What are the ratings going to be for that?

You watch the NFL for the big hits just like people watch NASCAR for the crashes.

[badger]

I think it's a big deal to the NFL because of the threat of concussion and injury-related litigation. They are really afraid that with everything in life that causes concussions and brain damage, that they are getting targeted especially because of their money pit status.

The NFL, to avoid being sued into oblivion, needs to have a firm stance against anything that seems to encourage injuries, especially the head-type injuries.

It doesn't matter what product they're selling, they are going to have to discourage this type of behavior to avoid potentially huge payouts to every ex-player that spent one second on an NFL roster.

I don't fault the ex-players for suing, nor do I fault the NFL for taking a hardline stance on this issue. There's a lot of money at stake on both sides.

[TUSooner]

Random thoughts:

"Everybody does it" = BS excuse; bounties are against the rules because they are wrong

A player could earn his bounty with a legal hit. Have the Saints been guilty of more illegal hits than other teams? I don't see it, so I think it's far from certain that they were encouraged to play "dirty." Still, rewards for knock-outs and cart-offs can't be too good.

The Saints' defense has not been very good at tackling or covering or the other ordinary stuff NFL defenses are supposed to do, so I doubt the bounty program had much effect.

The sheer violence of collisions in American football no longer thrills me, given that we now know guys are getting their brains slammed around inside their heads and suffering permanent damage. Face it, the game is moving away from that and toward pass-happy "basketball on grass." It'll still be a fun and violent game, and not for sissies. (By the way, NASCAR could have a fiery crash every 10 laps and I still would not watch it. To me, it's the most dreadfully boring "sport" ever.)

As much as I love NFL and college football, I have really started to enjoy Rugby Union and Aussie rules football.

You hate my Saints? No problem; it's sports. Hate away! (Just don't bomb the stadium.)

[StoopTroup]

I say....this is pro sports. it's the NFL and the Players League to sort this out.

[colleyvillesooner]

Random thoughts:

"Everybody does it" = BS excuse; bounties are against the rules because they are wrong

A player could earn his bounty with a legal hit. Have the Saints been guilty of more illegal hits than other teams? I don't see it, so I think it's far from certain that they were encouraged to play "dirty." Still, rewards for knock-outs and cart-offs can't be too good.

The Saints' defense has not been very good at tackling or covering or the other ordinary stuff NFL defenses are supposed to do, so I doubt the bounty program had much effect.

Read this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1195695/index.htm


The NFL alleges that by the time New Orleans reached the NFC Championship Game against the Vikings on Jan. 24, 2010, the stakes had risen to the point that middle linebacker and defensive captain Jonathan Vilma personally offered a $10,000 bounty to any player who knocked Minnesota quarterback Brett Favre out of the game. (SI's attempts to reach Vilma were unsuccessful.)

Over four quarters that Sunday at the Superdome, Favre was hit repeatedly and hard. The league later fined Saints defensive linemen Bobby McCray and Anthony Hargrove a total of $25,000 for three separate improper hits, and NFL vice president of officiating Mike Pereira said the Saints should have been flagged for a brutal high-low mashing by McCray and defensive lineman Remi Ayodele in the third quarter. Favre suffered a badly sprained left ankle on that play and had to be helped off the field. On the New Orleans sideline, Hargrove excitedly slapped hands with teammates, saying, "Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!"

An on-field microphone directed toward the sideline caught an unidentified defender saying, "Pay me my money!"

Favre returned to the game but was hobbled. The Saints won 31--28 in overtime, and two weeks later they defeated the Colts 31--17 in Super Bowl XLIV, a victory for an embattled city that was one of the most uplifting moments in recent NFL history. But the excessive hits on Favre in the title game, and on Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner a week earlier in New Orleans's 45--14 divisional playoff victory, prompted an off-and-on two-year league investigation that culminated last Friday in a caustic and blistering report implicating Williams and Saints players in a pay-for-performance program that operated far outside the bounds of league rules.

[TUSooner]

Read this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1195695/index.htm

Oh yeah. Favre was probably the worst case; Curt Warner was too, though I don't recall any fines associated with him. Well, I asked the question and got an answer. I never said the "legal-hit bounty" case was a STRONG one. :wink:

I am disappointed with the Saints, because whatever mitigating factors one could dream up, they did wrong, and they paid guys to hurt other players. It's cheating in the worst way.

Although I will still be a Saints fan (just as Switzer's downfall could not make me stop loving the Sooners), this makes me feel not-so-good about my team.

EDIT: Good read, by the way. It piszes me off.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

So what's the incentive to get $10,000 in bounty money if you're going to get fined $25,000? The incentive was to make it to the Super Bowl not to collect some trivial bounty. And you can bet that if the Vikings had a chance to take out Brees, they would have taken it. Brees plays a different game than Farve though.

I've obviously never played in the NFL, but when you listen to guys that have played you have to wonder if you can play in the NFL with the way the NFL says they want you to play. I don't think you can go out there any other way than full bore.

[badger]

Random thoughts:

- NFL fines and suspensions for bad hits will discourage bounty programs in the future, because pocket change (hundreds or a few thousand) is nothing compared to a game check/NFL fine or the PR hit (think endoresement dealios) that comes with being labeled a "dirty player."

- We never would have found out if it weren't for the fact that ex-players don't have reason to stay silent. Look for more anti-NFL crap that you find even more repulsive to be talked about when the concussion/injury class action suits enter testimony stages. Players might keep things "within the family" when they are on rosters, but after getting unceremoniously cut, traded or forced into retirement due to injury, money doesn't just talk, it will make people talk.

- If the bounties didn't involve purposefully injuring players, we'd be giggling or applauding this instead of being upset about it. We just can't help but zoom in on the glaring error of some of these situations, can we? If we didn't, Michael Vick could be seen as a small business owner, not a dog killer. Really, that is the bad part of this entire thing. Who really cares if there are little incentives for playing a little bit harder, getting an extra fumble or INT? If it wasn't about sending players off on carts or taking them outta the game and it was just about making "good" plays, we'd be like "Cool! Can you tell us more?"

- Hurry up and render your verdict, Roger Goodell. I feel like we're waiting to hear how much the Aggies and Tigers have to pay to leave for the SEC. $30 million is the rumor! The actual amount is... $12 million. So right now, we're at MEGA SUSPENSIONS FOR PLAYERS AND COACHES! THE BIGGEST FINES IN LEAGUE HISTORY! WILL THE COACHES AND GM BE FIRED?! NO DRAFT PICKS FOR OR BROCCOLI FOR ONE SEASON! And then, we're gonna be brought back down to reality, so I'd rather they just get it over with and announce the punishment so they can move on.

[pphilfran]

You don't want bounties but I think it is overblown...

A player ain't hitting harder because of a bounty...

A player will still go for a bad ankle with or without a bounty...

How many of those helmet stickers in college are due to a huge hit that puts a guy out of a game?

[Scott D]

Why doesn't the NFL just change the game to 2 hand touch if they are worried about lawsuits? What are the ratings going to be for that?

You watch the NFL for the big hits just like people watch NASCAR for the crashes.

The NFL is already facing lawsuits from both former players and the surviving family members of former players that have committed suicide. Right now Goodell is in a position that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. The NFL is as popular as it's ever been, however potentially it's staring financial ruin in the face with the growing number of lawsuits of past issues of player safety.

In short, comparing "kangaroo court" payoffs (small amounts) for great hits, interceptions, fumbles forced and recovered, touchdowns, big plays is not the same as a situation where at least one coach is involved where 4-5 figure amounts are bandied about for knocking a player out of a game via injury, and a bonus on top of that if the player is taken off on a cart.

It's easy to say the money doesn't matter to a starter, but to that guy who is barely holding onto a roster spot that gets in on 4-6 plays a game? 10k is a lot of money to that guy...for the starter who is involved in that kind of activity it's more about the notoriety than the money. What makes this situation real ugly is the fact that the process was set in motion by the defensive coordinator, and apparently with the knowledge of both the head coach and the general manager who did nothing to stop it or nip it in the bud early. Yeah, the Saints are going to pay a steep price for it (likely more than Spygate), and if Goodell had been the Commissioner when Buddy Ryan ran his bounty system the Eagles would have been hit hard for it as well.

Last but not least, Big Hits does not = Dirty Hits with an intent to take someone out of a game.

[8timechamps]

You don't want bounties but I think it is overblown...

A player ain't hitting harder because of a bounty...

A player will still go for a bad ankle with or without a bounty...

How many of those helmet stickers in college are due to a huge hit that puts a guy out of a game?

That's the first thing I thought about when this story broke. It's the NFL, there are no slouches out there, and I'm pretty sure most of them bring everything they have on every tackle. I can't imagine adding a dollar figure to it would make it any more intense. Kind of speaks to the stupidity of a coach that thinks that way.

I really don't see why this is such a big story. I agree that it's wrong, but this has been around forever.

[OULenexaman]

And so now they fully admit it......put an * next to that SB Title.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Honestly..This doesn't really bother me..

[TUSooner]

And so now they fully admit it......put an * next to that SB Title.

Let's not get carried away. It was classless and wrong and against the rules etc. but it's not like they took knives and chains out on the field for a kids' soccer match. Really.

[GDC]

I can't believe this is even an issue.

[Curly Bill]

In a league where they won't even let defensive players hit the QB anymore how can anyone be surprised this is an issue?

[TUSooner]

A concise explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jfcwEpUNZc&feature=youtu.be&hd=1

It made me laugh.

[OULenexaman]

Let's not get carried away. It was classless and wrong and against the rules etc. but it's not like they took knives and chains out on the field for a kids' soccer match. Really. I was making a joke about it.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

The NFL is already facing lawsuits from both former players and the surviving family members of former players that have committed suicide. Right now Goodell is in a position that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. The NFL is as popular as it's ever been, however potentially it's staring financial ruin in the face with the growing number of lawsuits of past issues of player safety.

In short, comparing "kangaroo court" payoffs (small amounts) for great hits, interceptions, fumbles forced and recovered, touchdowns, big plays is not the same as a situation where at least one coach is involved where 4-5 figure amounts are bandied about for knocking a player out of a game via injury, and a bonus on top of that if the player is taken off on a cart.

It's easy to say the money doesn't matter to a starter, but to that guy who is barely holding onto a roster spot that gets in on 4-6 plays a game? 10k is a lot of money to that guy...for the starter who is involved in that kind of activity it's more about the notoriety than the money. What makes this situation real ugly is the fact that the process was set in motion by the defensive coordinator, and apparently with the knowledge of both the head coach and the general manager who did nothing to stop it or nip it in the bud early. Yeah, the Saints are going to pay a steep price for it (likely more than Spygate), and if Goodell had been the Commissioner when Buddy Ryan ran his bounty system the Eagles would have been hit hard for it as well.

Last but not least, Big Hits does not = Dirty Hits with an intent to take someone out of a game.

Oh I get the NFL's motivation. The NFL wants big hits because the fans want big hits but the NFL doesn't want lawsuits. It's kind of a hypocritical stance but it's what they are forced into due to the litigious nature of society in the US.

The righteous indignation by a lot of people is what I don't get. I mean, are you going to watch the NFL if it becomes a flag football league? People watch football for the big collisions and then feign indignation when something like this goes on.

[Frozen Sooner]

That's the first thing I thought about when this story broke. It's the NFL, there are no slouches out there, and I'm pretty sure most of them bring everything they have on every tackle. I can't imagine adding a dollar figure to it would make it any more intense. Kind of speaks to the stupidity of a coach that thinks that way.

Do you think it had anything to do with Roman Harper hitting Steve Smith well after the play was over, then picking a fight with him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZk2RVhFrOw

[TUSooner]

I was making a joke about it.

Oh... Then never mind!