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View Full Version : Bullied Ohio student fatally shoots classmate, wounds four others



badger
2/27/2012, 03:24 PM
Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=13&articleid=20120227_13_0_CHARDO818686)

At times like this I think back to school days when everyone was bullied and everyone bullied everyone else to some degree.

I don't think the answer is to try to squish bullying. I think the answer is to try to convince kids that no matter how low they feel now, it gets better. Just make it through one day at a time and you'll be outta school before you know it and away from the childish bullying that torments you to the point of wanting to kill others :(

TUSooner
2/27/2012, 03:53 PM
Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=13&articleid=20120227_13_0_CHARDO818686)

At times like this I think back to school days when everyone was bullied and everyone bullied everyone else to some degree.

I don't think the answer is to try to squish bullying. I think the answer is to try to convince kids that no matter how low they feel now, it gets better. Just make it through one day at a time and you'll be outta school before you know it and away from the childish bullying that torments you to the point of wanting to kill others :(

Bullies DO suck, and such aszholes should be opposed and discouraged whenever possible by whoever is in a position to do it. Nonetheless, you inevitably have to ignore a lot of **** in life,* and you might as well start learning that lesson in school.


*Otherwise I might have committed 2 violent assaults and caused some unlawful property damage on the way to work today.

cleller
2/27/2012, 08:20 PM
This whole thing seems to be getting worse all the time. It seems like these huge high schools make the problems even worse.

These "bullies" are pathetic, too. I'd love to take them back 35 years and let them meet my big brothers. THEY may have bullied me, but no one else did.

tulsaoilerfan
2/27/2012, 09:07 PM
Most bullies are nothing but big pusses; if you call them out or fight back they will pee all over themselves

SicEmBaylor
2/27/2012, 09:25 PM
I have very little sympathy for these kids. You got teased a little? Boo-f'n-hoo. That's absolutely no excuse to start shooting and killing innocent kids. None whatsoever. There is never ever any reason to ever go on a rampage and shoot innocent people...ever. I'm not condoning bullying by any means, but I think focusing on the bullying sends the wrong message....it takes some of the blame away from the shooter and distributes it to a bunch of stupid kids who should have acted better.

This is why teachers should be allowed to carry on school grounds. Hell, even if it is against the law, I would still do it if I were a teacher. I'd rather illegally carry and potentially save my life and the life of my students and deal with the consequences later.

If a kid is bullying you then do what kids have done since cave man days, beat the snot out of the kid. Hell, get a golf club and crack his knee caps on the way home from school one day. But don't f'n kill anyone and don't take a damned gun to school and shoot innocent kids. It makes me sick when a kid is deprived of a chance to grow up and experience life because some little **** got teased and decided to start massacring people.

StoopTroup
2/27/2012, 09:46 PM
SicEm: Day 2 as a Teacher.....Federal Firearms Violation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1_EoRZOVes

SicEmBaylor
2/27/2012, 09:50 PM
SicEm: Day 2 as a Teacher.....Federal Firearms Violation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1_EoRZOVes

Not the least bit relevant.

This is a firearms instructor. As such, he's routinely handling his weapon. Now of course he's a moron for having it loaded in the first place but that's beside the point that this has little to do with what I said.

A normal school teacher would never ever have cause to pull the gun out or handle it unless there was an active shooter. The gun being kept secure in a briefcase, purse, locked drawer, etc. isn't going to just "go off." This is an apples/oranges comparison.

ouwasp
2/27/2012, 10:58 PM
My wife and I are both teachers... she's at a high school, I'm jr high. Whenever I hear about one of these horrific events, I shake my head. It really could happen anywhere, but thank goodness it's rare. But then we have to go through a bunch of Sky-is-falling staff development Lockdown drills. Necessary evils I suppose. But the hand-wringing was really bad right after Columbine. I was teaching at the elementary level at the time, suddenly it was like teaching at Ft. Knox! Everything was locked. We were gonna keep the boogeyman out! At a faculty meeting, I pointed out the threat was from within, not from some malevolent mystery prowling outside. This was met with silence, then more hand-wringing.

Myself? I keep a T-ball bat in a filing cabinet. If the worst ever happens, I'll go down swinging. Or just maybe the gunboy will have his brains put on display...

nighttrain12
2/27/2012, 11:14 PM
I think it remains to be seen in this instance whether this was a 'bullied' kid or he was just mad at a few people.

Also, as far as standing up to bullies, some kids will never be able to do that, they just don't have it in them.

StoopTroup
2/27/2012, 11:16 PM
Not the least bit relevant.

This is a firearms instructor. As such, he's routinely handling his weapon. Now of course he's a moron for having it loaded in the first place but that's beside the point that this has little to do with what I said.

A normal school teacher would never ever have cause to pull the gun out or handle it unless there was an active shooter. The gun being kept secure in a briefcase, purse, locked drawer, etc. isn't going to just "go off." This is an apples/oranges comparison.

Not at all. It's an exact rendition of what would happen if you were a Teacher with a gun. There have been studies on this. It's all real. You are way out of touch with reality. :D

StoopTroup
2/27/2012, 11:20 PM
BTW....I thought we had fixed all of this back in the Bush Administration. You know....that time period between Columbine and the V-Tech Massacre.

Honestly. We have a lot of guns out there and anyone can buy ammo in this free Country. I know we all express outrage when these things happen but I don't think arming Teachers is the right approach.

SicEmBaylor
2/27/2012, 11:40 PM
Not at all. It's an exact rendition of what would happen if you were a Teacher with a gun. There have been studies on this. It's all real. You are way out of touch with reality. :D
This is utterly and totally ridiculous. I barely know where to begin other than to say that it's patently absurd to assume that teachers would be fiddling with their firearms in front of their class much less the off-chance that an accident happens and the weapon is fired.

Every single day we come into contacts with lots of people who are legally carrying a concealed firearm. They're at restaurants, movie theaters, the mall, wal-mart, etc. etc. When was the last time you heard of someone who had a CHL license discharging their weapon in public? *crickets*

Crossing the threshold onto school property doesn't make a licensed carrier any more likely to have an accident; in fact, I believe it would make them even more cautious and less likely to make a mistake.


I know we all express outrage when these things happen but I don't think arming Teachers is the right approach.
There is a difference between "arming teachers" and allowing teachers who are legally licensed to carry at school the same way they'd carry anywhere else they are. Every time this argument comes up, people act as if teachers are bumbling fools who are totally incapable of properly handling a firearm. My opinion of public school teachers is pretty low, but I have enough faith in them to believe that they could safely carry at school in the same manner they carry other places.

Do you know long it took police and SWAT to respond to Columbine and get into the school? It was shameful, and that wasn't unique to Columbine. SWAT and police act like a bunch of pu**ies in this situation. Yes, it's dangerous to enter a building with shooters when you don't know where they are. Deal with it. The military does that every single day in Afghanistan and Iraq. Grow a f'n pair and get into the building as fast as you can with what you have and what information you can gather in the time it takes you to get out of the SWAT bus and into the building.

Even assuming that cops and SWAT immediately entered the building, it still takes a considerable amount of time for them to respond. It's usually too late by the time the police get there.

I would go to school feeling a hell of a lot safer if I knew my teacher had a revolver in her purse and she knew how to use it if some lunatic came through the door looking to shoot up the class.

picasso
2/27/2012, 11:44 PM
Geez, now I know what I should have done back in 8th grade. I should have taken a shotgun to the entire 9th grade football team. That woulda taught them for smashing me into the ground like a little grease spot as the 8th grade QB. Happened in the scrimmage every day at the end of practice.
They also forearmed us in the thighs as we loaded the bus every day to go out to the practice fields. 8th grade was a bitch I tell ya.

StoopTroup
2/27/2012, 11:52 PM
Geez, now I know what I should have done back in 8th grade. I should have taken a shotgun to the entire 9th grade football team. That woulda taught them for smashing me into the ground like a little grease spot as the 8th grade QB. Happened in the scrimmage every day at the end of practice.
They also forearmed us in the thighs as we loaded the bus every day to go out to the practice fields. 8th grade was a bitch I tell ya.

Either that or your Teacher should have been armed and sawed you in half the moment you went for your gun. :D ;)

cleller
2/28/2012, 09:10 AM
The problem I see with teachers and guns is that just that with every extra gun that is in a school, the odds of an accident or theft of the gun increase. Then you have the problem of what calibre, ammo, etc would be "safe". The reason it will never happen is: suppose at teacher shoots at the "bad kid", the round goes right thru him, and kills a "good kid". Not an unlikely scenario. The school district would be sued into eternity.

The Columbine response was a disgrace, and it did not go unnoticed. Since that time police departments across the country have been training heavily on a concept most often called "hall boss". The idea is that if something like this happens, as soon as 2-3 officers arrive on the scene, there will be no waiting around for SWAT, etc. They are going in to end the situation as fast as possible.

The effort is to make the training similar all across the county, as when something like this happens, it is not unusual to have officers from different jurisdictions all arriving at the same time. (city, county, state)

badger
2/28/2012, 09:24 AM
I wonder why it's only a guy thing when it comes to school shootings, it seems. I know that most incarcerated people and those convicted of gun-related crimes are guys, but hell, here in Oklahoma we have the highest female incarceration rate.

Maybe when us little ladies are off getting our "this is a tampon" speech from the guidance counselor, another counselor could talk to the little guys about bullying and standing up for yourself in a non-violent way.

It seems like when girls get bullied, including getting cyber-bullied these days, they don't look to retaliate, they look to commit suicide. When boys get bullied, they get even through violence.

Thoughts?

SicEmBaylor
2/28/2012, 09:46 AM
The problem I see with teachers and guns is that just that with every extra gun that is in a school, the odds of an accident or theft of the gun increase. Then you have the problem of what calibre, ammo, etc would be "safe". The reason it will never happen is: suppose at teacher shoots at the "bad kid", the round goes right thru him, and kills a "good kid". Not an unlikely scenario. The school district would be sued into eternity.
There doesn't need to be any discussion at all as to what type of gun or caliber is acceptable because the school shouldn't be formally involved in the issue. The only thing that needs to happen is to allow licensed teachers with a CHL to do what they do everywhere else -- carry their firearm. I go back to the fact that this issue of accidental shooting is absurd, and I'd like to know why teachers who otherwise safely carry their weapon outside the school are supposedly unable to do so in the school.

Sure the school district is opening themselves up to additional liability, but they're likely going to get sued anyway when there are half a dozen dead children in the hallway riddled with bullets by a lunatic that could have been stopped by a properly licensed and armed teacher. If I were the school, I'd worry more about keeping kids safe in the case of an attack and less about their financial liability. You can't put a price tag on a kid's life.

The Columbine response was a disgrace, and it did not go unnoticed. Since that time police departments across the country have been training heavily on a concept most often called "hall boss". The idea is that if something like this happens, as soon as 2-3 officers arrive on the scene, there will be no waiting around for SWAT, etc. They are going in to end the situation as fast as possible.


The effort is to make the training similar all across the county, as when something like this happens, it is not unusual to have officers from different jurisdictions all arriving at the same time. (city, county, state)

This is very good news. It's just too bad it took something like Columbine for it happen.

SicEmBaylor
2/28/2012, 09:51 AM
I wonder why it's only a guy thing when it comes to school shootings, it seems. I know that most incarcerated people and those convicted of gun-related crimes are guys, but hell, here in Oklahoma we have the highest female incarceration rate.

Maybe when us little ladies are off getting our "this is a tampon" speech from the guidance counselor, another counselor could talk to the little guys about bullying and standing up for yourself in a non-violent way.

It seems like when girls get bullied, including getting cyber-bullied these days, they don't look to retaliate, they look to commit suicide. When boys get bullied, they get even through violence.

Thoughts?

I seem to recall that there was one girl a few years ago who either did or was planning to shoot up her school. It may be my imagination though.

It seems odd to me that girls are the ones who internalize their emotions and allow that negativity to eat away at them to the point of suicide. I would think that girls would be the ones to allow their emotions to lash out at others...especially innocent people. Boys are the ones I'd expect to internalize their emotions to the point they commit suicide.

HOWEVER, there are exceptions to the typical profile of a school shooter. Ours was a straight-A student, good looking, preppy, very popular with his classmates, attended church regularly, was from a mid-middle class family, etc. etc. Totally the opposite of the mold.

TUSooner
2/28/2012, 09:52 AM
I wonder why it's only a guy thing when it comes to school shootings, it seems. I know that most incarcerated people and those convicted of gun-related crimes are guys, but hell, here in Oklahoma we have the highest female incarceration rate.

Maybe when us little ladies are off getting our "this is a tampon" speech from the guidance counselor, another counselor could talk to the little guys about bullying and standing up for yourself in a non-violent way.

It seems like when girls get bullied, including getting cyber-bullied these days, they don't look to retaliate, they look to commit suicide. When boys get bullied, they get even through violence.

Thoughts?

Would it be too easy just to say that guys are stupid that way? I think you could build a good case to support the proposition that males between the ages of (say) 16 and 24 are the greatest menace to the human race in all of history: Young, strong, impulsive, easily manipulated by both threats and appeals to their "manhood", sexually charged, generally confused, and usually deluded by the illusion of immortality.

badger
2/28/2012, 10:13 AM
Girls definitely don't internalize stuff totally... that's why they bawl endlessly and get overly dramatic while boys try their best to never cry in public, lest they look less manly or whatever.

Bullying, suicides and even some school shootings seem to rely on the "don't tell anyone" policy. As in, "I'm going to do this and don't you dare tell anyone." I remember reading that someone who knew the Colombine shooters was warned to stay away from the school that morning.

Perhaps, like most police agencies, schools need ways for kids to "snitch/tattle/nark/etc" without having to deal with the repercussions of being outed as the snitcher.

EDIT: A story of my own on "snitching:" We were watching this totally bland and boring civil war thing that was apparently an expensive borrowed boxed set from another teacher that the history teacher was borrowing for class use. Anyway a student decided, as a joke, to hide the tape so we wouldn't have to watch it and I was sitting in the front of the classroom and saw them do it. It wasn't a very good hiding spot, so I didn't think much of it.

As much as I disliked this teacher, after watching him panick about the missing tape for awhile the next class period, searching hopelessly in all of the wrong spots, I decided to relieve him quietly of his suffering and removed the tape from its hiding spot and put it back with the others before any other students arrived... and as was my luck, he walked in just as I was putting it back.

He furiously demanded to know how hid the tape. If I had known that he was going to be that anal about it, I never would have un-hid it. I had no obligation to give it back, it wasn't my tape and it wasn't my responsibility and I wasn't the one who took it. I just thought that it was painless way to do the right thing --- to quietly return the tape and not have to deal with it personally.

I have a feeling that many others have felt the same way about being a "snitch." They know what the right thing to do is, but they need an easier way to do the right thing... a "no questions asked" way, especially when it's something as serious as life or death situations.

SicEmBaylor
2/28/2012, 10:24 AM
EDIT: A story of my own on "snitching:" We were watching this totally bland and boring civil war thing that was apparently an expensive borrowed boxed set from another teacher that the history teacher was borrowing for class use. Anyway a student decided, as a joke, to hide the tape so we wouldn't have to watch it and I was sitting in the front of the classroom and saw them do it. It wasn't a very good hiding spot, so I didn't think much of it.

As much as I disliked this teacher, after watching him panick about the missing tape for awhile the next class period, searching hopelessly in all of the wrong spots, I decided to relieve him quietly of his suffering and removed the tape from its hiding spot and put it back with the others before any other students arrived... and as was my luck, he walked in just as I was putting it back.

He furiously demanded to know how hid the tape. If I had known that he was going to be that anal about it, I never would have un-hid it. I had no obligation to give it back, it wasn't my tape and it wasn't my responsibility and I wasn't the one who took it. I just thought that it was painless way to do the right thing --- to quietly return the tape and not have to deal with it personally.

I have a feeling that many others have felt the same way about being a "snitch." They know what the right thing to do is, but they need an easier way to do the right thing... a "no questions asked" way, especially when it's something as serious as life or death situations.

He probably hid it because you went to a yankee school and had to listen to government-approved yankee propaganda about the War of Northern Aggression. The kid that hid that tape is a southern patriot!

badger
2/28/2012, 10:31 AM
He probably hid it because you went to a yankee school and had to listen to government-approved yankee propaganda about the War of Northern Aggression. The kid that hid that tape is a southern patriot!

It was actually a girl that did it. If it was a guy, they might have just taken the tape, played floor hockey with it, and then i REALLY wouldn't have said or done anything about it.

SicEmBaylor
2/28/2012, 10:36 AM
It was actually a girl that did it. If it was a guy, they might have just taken the tape, played floor hockey with it, and then i REALLY wouldn't have said or done anything about it.

A southern belle she is! She single?

badger
2/28/2012, 10:50 AM
A southern belle she is! She single?

Um, I went to K-12 school in rural Wisconsin. You know, hence the name "badger?"

SicEmBaylor
2/28/2012, 10:58 AM
Um, I went to K-12 school in rural Wisconsin. You know, hence the name "badger?"

I know -- that's why I commented on the fact that you went to a yankee school. ;) The fact that she hid that disgusting yankee propaganda piece is proof positive she's a southern belle regardless of where she's from!

badger
2/28/2012, 11:09 AM
I know -- that's why I commented on the fact that you went to a yankee school. ;) The fact that she hid that disgusting yankee propaganda piece is proof positive she's a southern belle regardless of where she's from!

You know, that incident was like... 12 years ago or so. It might have been the American Revolution, not the Civil War. I really don't know.

My POINT was that there are many cases already (and anyone that remembers their own school days or deals regularly with kids probably can relate) that there is a trust barrier between adults and students at the K-12 level. Kids talk a lot more freely and see a lot more of their peers than their adult supervisors. So, there has to be some way to break down that communication and info barrier without just putting up more walls.

I think we can all agree that a bully deterrent is telling an adult. But, there's repercussions from that. What if you could tell adults without the usual "snitching" consequences? What if, like an adult anonymously calling 911 to report a shooting nearby, a student could call a tipster hotline to say that their friend is planning to commit suicide? Or that their classmate has a gun in their locker?

achiro
2/28/2012, 12:34 PM
There will always be bullying. The real key is teaching kids not to be a victim. Don't ever let anyone have that much power over you.

badger
2/28/2012, 01:50 PM
There will always be bullying. The real key is teaching kids not to be a victim. Don't ever let anyone have that much power over you.

What is the most effective way to teach them, though? Did "stick and stones" recitation really convince anyone here back when they were young?

Ton Loc
2/28/2012, 02:06 PM
Am I the only one who isn't surprised this doesnt happen more often? With the number of guns, drugs, alcohol, and stupid parents we have I always wonder.
BTW, bullies are bullies because people let them get away with it. All the other kids and all the teachers and administrators let it go to a point.

cleller
2/28/2012, 02:27 PM
Getting back to SicEm's plan for concealed carry in the schools, maybe Midtowner or TU could touch on the different liabilities at play. I think its possible that districts could have limited liability for injuries on their property, unless their are outrageously negligent, or act in bad faith. If the injuries came from an employee, that would all change.

I still think the odds would be greater of a teacher's gun being taken away, etc, and harm coming from that. Just playing the odds. Would the teachers even want too? Carrying a gun is uncomfortable, concealing it is even more uncomfortable.

Soonerjeepman
2/28/2012, 02:52 PM
t My opinion of public school teachers is pretty low, but I have enough faith in them to believe that they could safely carry at school in the same manner they carry other places.



thanks...I'm a public school teacher...guess we are worst than them they're provate skool techers..?...my opinion of baylor fans is pretty low as well....btw...I shoot my 9mm pistol, 9 mm rifle, shotgun, 30/30, .22 on a reg basis...

TUSooner
2/28/2012, 03:20 PM
You guys are not really taking Sic'Em seriously, are you? You know, he's just visiting our planet, and has not yet learned how human beings actually think and behave. So show him hospitality, but don't get carried away.

;)

MsProudSooner
2/28/2012, 04:27 PM
There will always be bullying. The real key is teaching kids not to be a victim. Don't ever let anyone have that much power over you.

That statement is the epitome of 'easier said than done'.

As much as I despise bullies, they don't deserve to die. Somehow, the conspiracy of silence has to be broken. Kids who witness bullying need to have a way to let people know about it without fearing repercussions.

Arming teachers is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. How many hours do police officers spend learning to use their weapons safely before they are allowed on the streets with weapons? How many hours a week or month do they spend maintaining their skills? Does anyone really think that teachers have time to do that on top of teaching 6 or 7 hours a day, grading papers and sponsoring extra-curricular activities?

Sicem', I'll just tell you the same thing that that I would tell that disgusting banker who told the waitress to 'get a real job'. Walk in their shoes for an entire school year and you would probably change your tune.

badger
2/28/2012, 04:40 PM
Kids who witness bullying need to have a way to let people know about it without fearing repercussions.

I've thought about this more after suggesting it, and I can already see the ways that the adults will try to make it less anonymous.

Leave a slip of paper on the teacher's desk? The teacher will go through and start matching handwriting to figure out who left it. Send an email or call? Trace the email or call.

And, there's always the possibility of adults thinking that kids are lying, so who is to say they'll take the warning seriously. The good ol' boy system? It's in schools too. There was this absolutely appalling boy in the grade ahead of me who was the superintendent's son. His older brother was a nice guy, but I suspect his grades were inflated. Daddy's sons always got to start for their teams and didn't ever get into trouble.

jkjsooner
2/28/2012, 06:00 PM
I think in a lot of these cases it goes a lot further than just being bullied. In this case and with Dylan and Klebold there seemed to be some serious narcissistic traits. Their home lives seemed to be a mess. In Dylan and Klebold's cases there seemed to be neglect - at least the cluelessness of the parents suggests that.


As for bullying I think the biggest problem is the bully's parents. I can't count how many times I saw one kid bullying another with his parents right there. Too many parents think their kids are so wonderful that they can't see what their kids are doing right in front of them or they just pass it off as "kids being kids." Either way it just sickens me. My child is just 2 right now and I'm not the hardest on him but I can promise you if I ever hear him treating another kid with anything but respect he will learn his lesson. And I hope if it happens when I'm not around I will be told about it.

Jacie
2/28/2012, 07:49 PM
Who was being bullied at Columbine? Apparently, not the two young men who went on a killing spree.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm

What they did had nothing to do with bullying. There was no target group. They intended to kill everyone for reasons that had nothing to do with being bullied.

Perhaps this latest school shooting was about a student being bullied but we don't know that yet.

MsProudSooner
2/28/2012, 08:04 PM
I think in a lot of these cases it goes a lot further than just being bullied. In this case and with Dylan and Klebold there seemed to be some serious narcissistic traits. Their home lives seemed to be a mess. In Dylan and Klebold's cases there seemed to be neglect - at least the cluelessness of the parents suggests that.


As for bullying I think the biggest problem is the bully's parents. I can't count how many times I saw one kid bullying another with his parents right there. Too many parents think their kids are so wonderful that they can't see what their kids are doing right in front of them or they just pass it off as "kids being kids." Either way it just sickens me. My child is just 2 right now and I'm not the hardest on him but I can promise you if I ever hear him treating another kid with anything but respect he will learn his lesson. And I hope if it happens when I'm not around I will be told about it.

My grandson is 20 months old. The biggest kid in the daycare figured out by age 14 months that he could get what he wanted by force. The teacher's do their best to redirect him but sometimes they don't get there in time. One day he was determined to take my grandson's favorite toy from him. My grandson held on and finally just bent over and bit him. The kid left him alone for a long while after that. A few months later, my grandson was laying on the floor and this kid walked over and sat on him. My grandson was clearly unhappy about it. Even though he's not as big, he was able to stand up and in standing up the other kid fell down. But not all kids have that instinct to stand up for themselves.

olevetonahill
2/28/2012, 08:17 PM
You guys are not really taking Sic'Em seriously, are you? You know, he's just visiting our planet, and has not yet learned how human beings actually think and behave. So show him hospitality, but don't get carried away.

;)

Hes really Morks lil brother


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbEBErvW-Uc

ouwasp
2/28/2012, 08:32 PM
The latest I saw from Ohio (CBS Nat'l News) was that this was not tied to bullying; just a random, senseless crime committed by a boy with issues.

Like I said earlier, I teach at a jr high. Most everyday I eat lunch with our SRO (school resource officer...Do not call Steve a security guard) He's been a personal friend for over 20 yrs. Anyhow, his opinion is the term "bullying" has been prostituted... that parents howl at the slightest dispute between kids. They know it has become a push-button term.... so brother, they push that button.

I would not care to be armed with a firearm at school. I would be okay with our principal/asst. principal being armed. But a weapon strapped on the waist of some of our teachers would just be an invitation to a resident dumbazz to do something tragically stupid.

yermom
2/29/2012, 12:42 AM
i haven't personally been through it, but it's not like just anyone can get a permit to carry. there are classes, and extra rules. it's not like anyone says every teacher should be packing, just that ones with permits should be able to

knowing you have free reign of the place until the cops get there would have to have some factor in the planning of these things

as for standing up to bullies, it's not like we are talking about just little kids here. lots of high school students have the bodies of adults and the minds of children. physically, just imagine SicEm "standing up" to your average college football recruit that isn't a kicker...

SicEmBaylor
2/29/2012, 01:38 AM
I still think the odds would be greater of a teacher's gun being taken away, etc, and harm coming from that. Just playing the odds. Would the teachers even want too? Carrying a gun is uncomfortable, concealing it is even more uncomfortable.

Oh, that'd be stupid. I can't imagine a teacher walking around with a glock strapped to their hip all day -- that's absurd. My thought was that they would be securely locked away in a safe within the classroom or principal's office or at the very least a locked desk drawer.


thanks...I'm a public school teacher...guess we are worst than them they're provate skool techers..?...my opinion of baylor fans is pretty low as well....btw...I shoot my 9mm pistol, 9 mm rifle, shotgun, 30/30, .22 on a reg basis...
I honestly don't know if private school teachers are any better than public school teachers since I (more or less) never attended a private school. My assumption is that they probably are, at least to some degree, because the teachers unions become a non-factor. A private school can implement all sorts of accountability programs that a public school can not. If a public school is failing then the only consequence is that they receive more taxpayer money. If a private school fails then they go out business and cease operation. HOWEVER, I should have worded what I said better. It's public government-indoctrination centers that I have an issue with more than the individual teachers. There are certainly some fantastic public school teachers out there -- I can't deny that. Growing up, I would say that about 1/3 of the teachers I had were a credit to their profession. The other 2/3 were good well intentioned people who took the easy route and taught to the lowest common denominator. I blame the government more for that problem than I do the teacher.

As for your shooting ability, you say that as if you're trying to play 'gotcha' with me. This is somewhat perplexing given the fact that I'm the one defending your firearm competency whether it be on school grounds or at the shooting range.


You guys are not really taking Sic'Em seriously, are you? You know, he's just visiting our planet, and has not yet learned how human beings actually think and behave. So show him hospitality, but don't get carried away.

;)
I would do a lot less internet-arguing and a lot more "probing" if I were from another planet. ;)


Like I said earlier, I teach at a jr high. Most everyday I eat lunch with our SRO (school resource officer...Do not call Steve a security guard) He's been a personal friend for over 20 yrs. Anyhow, his opinion is the term "bullying" has been prostituted... that parents howl at the slightest dispute between kids. They know it has become a push-button term.... so brother, they push that button.
This reminds me of our middle school librarian who decided she was not a librarian at all and, in fact, a "multi media specialist." I always found this amusing since she had virtually no clue how to turn a computer on and often had to have someone come in and help her. If she needs a ridiculous politically correct government bureaucrat sanctioned title change to make her feel better about herself then more power to her.


I would not care to be armed with a firearm at school. I would be okay with our principal/asst. principal being armed. But a weapon strapped on the waist of some of our teachers would just be an invitation to a resident dumbazz to do something tragically stupid.
I completely agree. A teacher shouldn't actually have the gun strapped to their hip.



as for standing up to bullies, it's not like we are talking about just little kids here. lots of high school students have the bodies of adults and the minds of children. physically, just imagine SicEm "standing up" to your average college football recruit that isn't a kicker...
I only had a real problem with a bully once. From pre-school to 1st grade, I attended a Montessori school in Muskogee. We had this kid who was an absolute jackass. He had his little pack of 3-4 friends and he would just terrorize everyone on the playground. This went on for awhile until I finally had enough of his ****. He was bothering someone else, but I had enough so I walked up to him and just punched the **** out of him. Bloodied his nose and he stood there in total and utter shock. I start to back away because I wasn't going to stand around waiting for the return volley -- I back up quite a few feet when he reaches down and picks up this tupperware container with a hard edge/rim. He throws this **** right at me and hits me right above the eye. The f'n bastard threw tupperware! Tupperware! Anyway, it required my dad giving me 3 stitches and I have a scar to this day. =(

ouwasp
2/29/2012, 09:20 AM
I must add this... our SRO is a badged, 25 yr member of our local police dept. He is called out on typical police situations at all times.

TUSooner
2/29/2012, 10:54 AM
Did anybody notice that the cops are now saying the killer chose his victims randomly and that bullying was not a factor? Bullying was never an "excuse" by the way, just thought to be a factor. I'm pretty sure the useless little **** needs the maximum punishment provided by law.

badger
2/29/2012, 11:10 AM
Did anybody notice that the cops are now saying the killer chose his victims randomly and that bullying was not a factor? Bullying was never an "excuse" by the way, just thought to be a factor. I'm pretty sure the useless little **** needs the maximum punishment provided by law.

As more of his shooting victims die (was initially one, now it's either two or three), there is very little possibility that he will be tried as a minor. He's going to big boy prison with the adult murderers, or be labeled mentally insane the rest of his life. I think that Ohio has the death penalty, but I doubt they will seek it in this case, because there's the possibility of mental incompetence being argued here.

achiro
2/29/2012, 11:26 AM
So he went to a special school for troubled kids but his lawer says he is a good kid who's never been in trouble...how does that work exactly?

In the initial reports they were saying that he had been going with a girl from that school and she broke up with him a month or so ago, anyone know if that is still holding as truth?

TUSooner
2/29/2012, 11:29 AM
As more of his shooting victims die (was initially one, now it's either two or three), there is very little possibility that he will be tried as a minor. He's going to big boy prison with the adult murderers, or be labeled mentally insane the rest of his life. I think that Ohio has the death penalty, but I doubt they will seek it in this case, because there's the possibility of mental incompetence being argued here.

I think I heard his lawyer already planting the seed of insanity in the court of pubic opinion. Not sure if it was his lawyer. These punks need to be aware of the threat of life in big prison with the really hard-core bad guys. (Infer whatever puns you like.)

TUSooner
2/29/2012, 11:30 AM
As more of his shooting victims die (was initially one, now it's either two or three), there is very little possibility that he will be tried as a minor. He's going to big boy prison with the adult murderers, or be labeled mentally insane the rest of his life. I think that Ohio has the death penalty, but I doubt they will seek it in this case, because there's the possibility of mental incompetence being argued here.

Cherchez la femme, eh? :-/ sorry

badger
2/29/2012, 11:46 AM
Cherchez la femme, eh? :-/ sorry

I don't think it's a male or a female issue, if you are referring to potential jurors or judges, I think it's an issue like this... have you ever heard of any justice system in this country putting someone (beyond a reasonable doubt) labeled as "insane" to death for any reason? Or, even if they aren't labeled as insane, have you ever heard of a minor offender, even one tried as an adult, put to death for any crime, no matter how awful the crime is?

As for whether he was bullied or not... everyone is in high school, even the popular kids. It's part of being in high school. So, I don't buy the argument that he wasn't being bullied at all. Whether that was what set him off or not? No idea.

TUSooner
2/29/2012, 01:20 PM
I don't think it's a male or a female issue, if you are referring to potential jurors or judges, I think it's an issue like this... have you ever heard of any justice system in this country putting someone (beyond a reasonable doubt) labeled as "insane" to death for any reason? Or, even if they aren't labeled as insane, have you ever heard of a minor offender, even one tried as an adult, put to death for any crime, no matter how awful the crime is?

As for whether he was bullied or not... everyone is in high school, even the popular kids. It's part of being in high school. So, I don't buy the argument that he wasn't being bullied at all. Whether that was what set him off or not? No idea.
I was just referring - very lamely - to the report that his girlfriend had broken up with him, and facetiously suggesting that she's to blame. Totally unseriously. And as for the bullying, it stands to reason that an "outcast" probably was bullied to some degree by someone, as you say, but the reports are that he was not avenging himself on any particular bully; the victims were random.

nighttrain12
3/1/2012, 01:11 AM
There have been a LOT of conflicting reports in the news since this has happened. He is obviously guilty but for those still curious of his motives, I don't think we can say for sure yet. It likely will never be clear cut why he did it.

badger
3/1/2012, 01:18 PM
There have been a LOT of conflicting reports in the news since this has happened. He is obviously guilty but for those still curious of his motives, I don't think we can say for sure yet. It likely will never be clear cut why he did it.

I really hope that it's not one of those instances where kids do something stupid without putting any serious thought into it.

I mean, I think we can all remember times when we've done stuff like that as kids.

Personal example: Why did you press every button on the elevator? I dunno. Didn't you know that it might cause the elevator to be held up and prevent elderly and disabled and disabled elderly people form using the elevator? I dunno. Don't you know that this was a really bad thing to do? I dunno. Now the elevator will stop at every floor at it will take forever to get to the ground floor. Don't you realize how stupid and inconsiderate your action was? I dunno.

Killing someone? It shouldn't be an "I dunno" instance like a spur-of-the-moment childish stupidity thing like pressing every elevator button. You have to have a really serious reason. You have to think about it consciously. You have to know that it will have a severe outcome and that there will be severe consequences.