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View Full Version : Will someone please remind me what we are supposed to be doing in Afghanistan?



TUSooner
2/22/2012, 09:29 AM
Anyone? If it's "reforming" a bass-ackward nation of fanatics with hair triggers, perhaps we need to step back and think that over.

hawaii 5-0
2/22/2012, 10:28 AM
Our goal, in my mind, was to get bin Laden,

Time to get out before more American lives are lost.

5-0

jkjsooner
2/22/2012, 10:38 AM
Maybe I'm naive but I never understood why nation building is a prerequisite in these situations. I know it worked well after WW2 and maybe a lack of it was a problem after WW1 but I still don't get why we can't just say you harbored and protected those who attacked us and we're removing you. Let them rebuild under the promise that if you harbor terrorists again we will again bomb the crap out of you.

We didn't need to reform the country to make life he'll for Al Quida.

C&CDean
2/22/2012, 10:42 AM
hmmmmm. Y'all praise your boy for getting the troops out of Iraq, and y'all praised him for beefing it up in Afghanistan. Why don't you axe him what we be doing there.

sappstuf
2/22/2012, 10:53 AM
Since Biden said that the Taliban is not our enemy a couple of months ago, I'm not even sure why...

TUSooner
2/22/2012, 11:13 AM
Maybe I'm naive but I never understood why nation building is a prerequisite in these situations. I know it worked well after WW2 and maybe a lack of it was a problem after WW1 but I still don't get why we can't just say you harbored and protected those who attacked us and we're removing you. Let them rebuild under the promise that if you harbor terrorists again we will again bomb the crap out of you.

We didn't need to reform the country to make life he'll for Al Quida.

Europe after WW2 was , more-or-less RE-building. There was some vestige of liberal democracy, or people at least understood what liberal democracy was, and they desired it. In Afghanistan, too many people embrace dark-age Islam, and it's pretty much a waste of time trying to get the institutions of liberal democracy to take root in that toxic soil. And getting them to give up their opium is, pardon the choice of words, a pipe dream. In short, it's a culture of oppression and violence and ever shall be. I'd think we could keep an eye out for burgeoning terrorist camps, etc., without wasting men and money in that stinking **** hole.

5thYearSooner
2/22/2012, 11:14 AM
Keeping an eye on Nuclear armed pakistan and playing with those remote controlled toy planes..

sappstuf
2/22/2012, 11:21 AM
Europe after WW2 was , more-or-less RE-building. There was some vestige of liberal democracy, or people at least understood what liberal democracy was, and they desired it. In Afghanistan, too many people embrace dark-age Islam, and it's pretty much a waste of time trying to get the institutions of liberal democracy to take root in that toxic soil. And getting them to give up their opium is, pardon the choice of words, a pipe dream. In short, it's a culture of oppression and violence and ever shall be. I'd think we could keep an eye out for burgeoning terrorist camps, etc., without wasting men and money in that stinking **** hole.

We would have to bomb them up to the stone age and that is certainly a problem..

okie52
2/22/2012, 11:21 AM
Europe after WW2 was , more-or-less RE-building. There was some vestige of liberal democracy, or people at least understood what liberal democracy was, and they desired it. In Afghanistan, too many people embrace dark-age Islam, and it's pretty much a waste of time trying to get the institutions of liberal democracy to take root in that toxic soil. And getting them to give up their opium is, pardon the choice of words, a pipe dream. In short, it's a culture of oppression and violence and ever shall be. I'd think we could keep an eye out for burgeoning terrorist camps, etc., without wasting men and money in that stinking **** hole.

We rebuilt Japan too well....

How do we leave Afghanistan? Do we bomb them back to the stone age (which wouldn't take much) or just leave? I am for us getting out of there. If they attack us again we blow the he11 out of them. 11 years is long enough.

I'm hoping to get Sapp and the boys home.

KantoSooner
2/22/2012, 11:40 AM
At first, the goal was to eliminate AQ/Bin Laden and their ability to operate out of there. Then the planners looked at what had caused the mess in the first place and concluded, not unreasonably, that the war against the Soviets had wrecked the traditional power structure and left the place a void into which the Taliban and AQ walked. So, we decided to try and leave something behind that would at least rival that evil duo. In my view, we're about to conclude that, without a hard-*** local warlord who can face down the Talibs and isnt interested in harboring AQ, we're SOL.
Should we have gone in, after OBL? Absolutely. Should we be concerned about what happens when we leave? Absolutely. But I'm not sure we can do much about it; given the lack of a decent-ish war lord conveniently hanging around.
For all those of you who want the troops home now, I'm with you, but rest assured that in so doing we GUARANTEE future terrorist attacks on our territory/people being organized/trained/run from that country.
There isn't an easy answer to this.

sappstuf
2/22/2012, 12:00 PM
We rebuilt Japan too well....

How do we leave Afghanistan? Do we bomb them back to the stone age (which wouldn't take much) or just leave? I am for us getting out of there. If they attack us again we blow the he11 out of them. 11 years is long enough.

I'm hoping to get Sapp and the boys home.

I'll be home for football season!

okie52
2/22/2012, 12:02 PM
We may suffer some terrorist attacks from Afghanistan after we leave but, if so, then we are only delaying the inevitable and still losing lives and spending an inordinate amount of money in the process.

If we are hit by the Afghanis-AQ-Taliban in the future I would hope we would bomb them into the stone age (heh, I know they're almost there now) and run special ops, etc...

Of course we have punished the taliban, et al, for a long time. Maybe a peace treaty with them now would help matters.

okie52
2/22/2012, 12:02 PM
I'll be home for football season!

Excellent!!!!!

diverdog
2/22/2012, 01:38 PM
I'll be home for football season!

Not if I have anything to do with it.

KantoSooner
2/23/2012, 11:36 AM
Okie, I'm essentially with you, but, absent bases there or in surrounding countries, forget special ops. It's one thing to scoot across a border from your base, or to insert from a submarine onto a shore line; quite another to helicopter across ten hours of hostile airspace. Basically it can't be done.
So, you're left with running a god-awful big CIA operation. Possible, but not without cost and also not capable of exerting pin-point military action in most cases.
Bombing has it's place, but is not terribly effective against people who are not establishing much in the way of bricks and mortar.
When we lost Masood, we lost a last best chance for a semi-acceptable warlord. I'm not seeing another candidate on the horizon; though that's no reason to stop looking.

Most likely scenario? The country becomes a giant Kashmir only with Iran and the 'Stans joining in the meddling. And, every five to ten years some really big atrocity will be given birth to there.

Genghiz Khan may have had the best solution when he leveled an Afghan city, killed everything down to the insects and built a pyramid of heads as a warning to the surrounding territory. Enjoyed peace for almost a generation.

okie52
2/23/2012, 11:47 AM
Okie, I'm essentially with you, but, absent bases there or in surrounding countries, forget special ops. It's one thing to scoot across a border from your base, or to insert from a submarine onto a shore line; quite another to helicopter across ten hours of hostile airspace. Basically it can't be done.
So, you're left with running a god-awful big CIA operation. Possible, but not without cost and also not capable of exerting pin-point military action in most cases.
Bombing has it's place, but is not terribly effective against people who are not establishing much in the way of bricks and mortar.
When we lost Masood, we lost a last best chance for a semi-acceptable warlord. I'm not seeing another candidate on the horizon; though that's no reason to stop looking.

Most likely scenario? The country becomes a giant Kashmir only with Iran and the 'Stans joining in the meddling. And, every five to ten years some really big atrocity will be given birth to there.

Genghiz Khan may have had the best solution when he leveled an Afghan city, killed everything down to the insects and built a pyramid of heads as a warning to the surrounding territory. Enjoyed peace for almost a generation.

Kanto, heh, I'm with Genghis.

KantoSooner
2/23/2012, 12:23 PM
Yes, The Ur-Kahn. Man of action, bon vivant, eater of his own grandmother, ancestor to almost 25% of modern day Asians, Libertarian (very few rules in his domain, essentially unquestioned loyalty and a readiness to step spritely to your horse when beckoned. The rest was up to you.)

It's almost always worth asking, WWGD? (What Would Genghiz Do?)

okie52
2/23/2012, 12:34 PM
I like that...WWGD?

sappstuf
2/23/2012, 11:55 PM
The Taliban urged Afghans Thursday to target foreign military bases and kill Westerners in retaliation for burnings of copies of the Quran at NATO's main base in the country as a third day of violent protests began.


"Our brave people must target the military bases of invader forces, their military convoys and their invader bases," read an emailed Taliban statement released by the insurgency's spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid.

Two Americans have been killed already and it is Friday morning here, things will only get worse the next couple of days.

I'm sure glad the Taliban isn't our enemy..

yermom
2/24/2012, 12:18 AM
WTF were they thinking on that deal?

if we can't keep straight which holy books to burn, maybe we shouldn't be there at all

ouwasp
2/24/2012, 01:08 AM
I'm with TUSooner on this one. Pull out, and while we're on the way out remind anyone that might understand the concept the we still have satellites watching their dungheap and plenty of cruise missiles.

If they wish to embrace the Taliban and their godforsaken Allah after we have exposed them to the premise of civil rights for this past decade, then so be it. There truly is no hope for them. And if they sneeze at us, the next time a Republican gets in the WH we'll rain death on them again.

okie52
2/24/2012, 01:29 AM
Two Americans have been killed already and it is Friday morning here, things will only get worse the next couple of days.

I'm sure glad the Taliban isn't our enemy..

Sorry to hear that.

I saw where an okie died just the other day sapp. Take care.

diverdog
2/24/2012, 12:30 PM
Since Biden said that the Taliban is not our enemy a couple of months ago, I'm not even sure why...

Per se. Lol

I am not sure what his point was in making that statement. My guess is that there are many factions of the Taliban and there are some that we can deal with to negotiate a peace.

Sooner_Bob
2/24/2012, 01:43 PM
So were those folks using the Koran to pass notes or not? I've heard they were and that's what initiated the burning . . . if it's so sacred why "deface" it with notes and stuff?

Soonerjeepman
2/24/2012, 02:29 PM
. Maybe a peace treaty with them now would help matters.

really? a PEACE treaty? you think these terrorist would recognize and abide by a peace treaty? I'm hopeful you were joking...

Soonerjeepman
2/24/2012, 02:31 PM
So were those folks using the Koran to pass notes or not? I've heard they were and that's what initiated the burning . . . if it's so sacred why "deface" it with notes and stuff?

can't be true...the king obama apologized for our military's actions....:nonchalance:

TUSooner
2/24/2012, 02:40 PM
can't be true...the king obama apologized for our military's actions....:nonchalance:
Oh. Come. On. ANY Prez worth a crap, including either of the Bushes, would have done the same. It's a simple act to try to protect American lives from dangerous loonies. Was he supposed to say "They shoulda peed on 'em to put out the fire, too!" The fact that you mock it only shows that your obsessive hatred of Obama has clogged your brain gears.

That said, the overreaction by the Afghans to this Koran deal is just more evidence for getting our guys out and monitoring the squalid situation from cruise-missile distance.

okie52
2/24/2012, 03:13 PM
really? a PEACE treaty? you think these terrorist would recognize and abide by a peace treaty? I'm hopeful you were joking...

Not joking at all. We basically made a deal in Iraq with the powers that be that greatly curtailed the insurgency. We've made treaties with many nations that we fought...even those stinking limies. If the Taliban don't honor the treaty then we blow them (or their host country) into oblivion. I don't see where hanging out in Afghanistan and suffering casualities and exorbitant costs is to our benefit. Do you?

yermom
2/24/2012, 04:37 PM
So were those folks using the Koran to pass notes or not? I've heard they were and that's what initiated the burning . . . if it's so sacred why "deface" it with notes and stuff?

i don't care what they burn, but why do it in the open?

soonercruiser
2/24/2012, 09:56 PM
Oh. Come. On. ANY Prez worth a crap, including either of the Bushes, would have done the same. It's a simple act to try to protect American lives from dangerous loonies. Was he supposed to say "They shoulda peed on 'em to put out the fire, too!" The fact that you mock it only shows that your obsessive hatred of Obama has clogged your brain gears.

That said, the overreaction by the Afghans to this Koran deal is just more evidence for getting our guys out and monitoring the squalid situation from cruise-missile distance.

Wow! I find myself in the unusual situation of agreeing with both statements.
But, it's really getting sad! They desecrate our flag, that's OK by them; and then they get upset over us buring a conservative book.

AlboSooner
2/24/2012, 10:58 PM
All this might have never happened if CIA says to FBI: hey some known terrorists are in the country, and might hijack planes, you know the guys yall been chasing since the USS Cole.

Whet
2/26/2012, 12:01 PM
Let's bring our guys and gals home now! The military has done great things there and accomplished the job they were sent in to do.

Last summer we hired a student intern, who was an Army Ranger in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Listening to his experiences in Afghanistan convinced me it was past time to leave.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/26/2012, 01:56 PM
See posts 4, 6, 10, 24, 26 and 32.

okie52
2/26/2012, 03:46 PM
Afghan protesters attack U.S. base


KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) – Demonstrators hurled grenades at a U.S. base in northern Afghanistan, and a gun battle left two Afghans dead and seven NATO troops injured Sunday in the escalating crisis over the burning of Muslim holy books at an American airfield.


Last week, during a protest in Nangarhar province in the east, two other U.S. troops were killed when an Afghan soldier turned his gun on them.


The attack on the base came a day after two U.S. military advisers — a lieutenant colonel and a major — were found dead after being shot in the head in their office at the Interior Ministry in the heart of the capital. The building is one of the city's most heavily guarded buildings, and the slayings raised doubts about safety as coalition troops continue their withdrawal.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-02-25/afghan-quran-protests/53240476/1

MR2-Sooner86
2/26/2012, 07:13 PM
We should've been out of that ****hole almost 10 years ago.

KantoSooner
2/27/2012, 10:24 AM
I don't have a 'solution' to the problem, but here are some things I think about:

1. The longer we have forces there, the more of those service personnel will be injured or killed. Either by direct combat or in accidents.

2. Without our forces there, the country will be used as a recruitment, training and support base for operations against us; either against our overseas assets or against our homeland. The central government there is simply too weak and too unmotivated to stop it from happening.

3. Since the intelligence 'reforms' under Carter, forced by the Church committee, our human intelligence capacity has been gutted. Considering that it takes 15-25 years to put an effective agent into an opposing organization, we are years away, if ever, from being able to exert any influence on or to monitor what the various extremist groups are doing. Signals Intelligence is dandy, but doesn't tell you squat about what is going on in the heads of your opponents. For that you need to have his best childhood friend drinking tea with him and 'sharing'...and then writing reports to Langley when he goes home at night. And that, friends, takes time, money, persistence, patience and a measured ability to overlook little things like maybe some drug trafficking on the part of said buddy. This can be done, if you start early enough with your guy. It can't really be done on the quick when you are, in essence approaching a drug dealer, for example, and offering to pay him to rat his friends out.

4. The opposing groups in Afghanistan are not apt to build buildings or other installations convenient for bombing or attack by missile.

5. Thus we are left with the almost certainty that, when we take our military boot off their throats, these groups will immediately begin to reconstitute a terror projection capabilty and one that we will be unable to accurately predict, interdict, destroy or punish from afar.

Crappy situation. Made worse by these groups' likely possession, now or in the future, of nasty bio/chem agents.

That's our new normal. It's a lovely little war.

Midtowner
2/27/2012, 10:30 AM
I think we went about this thing all wrong. The biggest problem with conquering that part of the world is that the people are pacified by their religion. Their particular religion makes it impossible for them to be pacified by outsiders. I don't think there's anything wrong with Islam per se, but supplanting it with something else or another brand of Islam which was less hostile to outsiders (e.g., the brand practiced in Indonesia) would have been the way to go.

KantoSooner
2/27/2012, 10:43 AM
I think it goes beyond religion or sect. I believe that the Pashtun, from whom the Taliban are largely recruited, are Sunni....as are the Indonesians.
Living in a tribal structure, however, makes working with anyone outside of their tribe very difficult. There's a zero sum game mindset that is difficult to overcome.
Perhaps, had we had the foresight to stay engaged (and to get a bit dirty and bloody when appropriate) following the anti-Soviet war, we could have influenced the course of events...or at least built up ties with various contenders for power. But we walked away, preferring to enjoy our 'peace dividend'.
Again, I am not able to prescribe a neat solution now, but I think we need to consider the consequences before we walk away again.

Midtowner
2/27/2012, 02:42 PM
I think it goes beyond religion or sect. I believe that the Pashtun, from whom the Taliban are largely recruited, are Sunni....as are the Indonesians.

Difference is, in Indonesia, Islam looks a lot more like a western religion than it does in, say, Afghanistan. People don't really identify as Sunni or Shia, they're just Muslims. Since ancient times, religion has been an important tool in pacifying conquered peoples, that is, folks you could immediately destroy militarily, but couldn't afford to keep constantly occupied. Think Gaul, the British Isles, or the Middle Eastern kingdoms under Rome. Supplanting local religion with something vastly or slightly different was key to keeping populations docile. To adapt, even local pagan customs like Christmas trees and solstice celebrations were absorbed.

It seems like we could have placed a greater priority on bribing the correct religious officials to spout some pro-US/freedom rhetoric, or at least dispose of troublesome clerics. Overcoming the religious leaders is a huge obstacle over there. The only way to "fix" Afghanistan is to transform its backward, non-Western-compatible style of Islam into something we see in the more developed and westernized Islamic countries.

Turd_Ferguson
2/27/2012, 02:53 PM
Difference is, in Indonesia, Islam looks a lot more like a western religion than it does in, say, Afghanistan. People don't really identify as Sunni or Shia, they're just Muslims. Since ancient times, religion has been an important tool in pacifying conquered peoples, that is, folks you could immediately destroy militarily, but couldn't afford to keep constantly occupied. Think Gaul, the British Isles, or the Middle Eastern kingdoms under Rome. Supplanting local religion with something vastly or slightly different was key to keeping populations docile. To adapt, even local pagan customs like Christmas trees and solstice celebrations were absorbed.

It seems like we could have placed a greater priority on bribing the correct religious officials to spout some pro-US/freedom rhetoric, or at least dispose of troublesome clerics. Overcoming the religious leaders is a huge obstacle over there. The only way to "fix" Afghanistan is to transform its backward, non-Western-compatible style of Islam into something we see in the more developed and westernized Islamic countries.


Living in a tribal structure, however, makes working with anyone outside of their tribe very difficult. There's a zero sum game mindset that is difficult to overcome.
Perhaps, had we had the foresight to stay engaged (and to get a bit dirty and bloody when appropriate) following the anti-Soviet war, we could have influenced the course of events...or at least built up ties with various contenders for power. But we walked away, preferring to enjoy our 'peace dividend'.
Again, I am not able to prescribe a neat solution now, but I think we need to consider the consequences before we walk away again.I bet you make all the correct play calls on Monday morning...

Midtowner
2/27/2012, 03:16 PM
I bet you make all the correct play calls on Monday morning...

Okay?

KantoSooner
2/27/2012, 05:51 PM
Midtowner, recall the Bali bombing and Abu Sayyaf (in the PI, but inspired and organized by Malaysians and Indons). Aceh province, Indonesia is known as 'Mecca's front porch'. East Timore was essentially a Muslim ethnic cleansing of Christians as have been several other assaults elsewhere in the Indon archepelago. There have also been numerous individual and small group Islamic radicals in both Malaysia and Indonesia, as well as the Philippines (I lump them together, along with the three Southern provinces of Thailand because that swath of mostly islands is the ethnic Malay world and is best treated, culturally, as a unit). They aren't exceptionally peaceful.
What they do have is well established civil societies and relatively strong and widely accepted central governments. In the case of all of them, bombers going to prison meet with a good deal of public approval...at the same time you can turn out a nice riot crowd to chant 'Death To America'.
(Nice side note: the Irish pub I used to frequent in the Bangsar district of Kuala Lumpur was run by IRA refugees who the Malaysian government had given asylum mostly to **** the Brits off... and then they were allowed to run their bar only with a secret police minder in attendance at all times. Fun!)
I still think it's more the societal structure than the religion that is keeping the lid on in SE Asia.
And that's good as it's one of the most delightful areas of the world. (Keep your head on a swivel when you walk around alone, however.)

AlboSooner
2/27/2012, 10:33 PM
Impressive analysis by Kanto. Definitely has done his reading.

diverdog
2/27/2012, 10:41 PM
Midtowner, recall the Bali bombing and Abu Sayyaf (in the PI, but inspired and organized by Malaysians and Indons). Aceh province, Indonesia is known as 'Mecca's front porch'. East Timore was essentially a Muslim ethnic cleansing of Christians as have been several other assaults elsewhere in the Indon archepelago. There have also been numerous individual and small group Islamic radicals in both Malaysia and Indonesia, as well as the Philippines (I lump them together, along with the three Southern provinces of Thailand because that swath of mostly islands is the ethnic Malay world and is best treated, culturally, as a unit). They aren't exceptionally peaceful.
What they do have is well established civil societies and relatively strong and widely accepted central governments. In the case of all of them, bombers going to prison meet with a good deal of public approval...at the same time you can turn out a nice riot crowd to chant 'Death To America'.
(Nice side note: the Irish pub I used to frequent in the Bangsar district of Kuala Lumpur was run by IRA refugees who the Malaysian government had given asylum mostly to **** the Brits off... and then they were allowed to run their bar only with a secret police minder in attendance at all times. Fun!)
I still think it's more the societal structure than the religion that is keeping the lid on in SE Asia.
And that's good as it's one of the most delightful areas of the world. (Keep your head on a swivel when you walk around alone, however.)

Glad you met my cousins.

As they say....one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Erin go Bragh

OU_Sooners75
2/28/2012, 10:38 AM
Diver, you have an opinion on everything...don't you?

KantoSooner
2/28/2012, 10:51 AM
It was a wonderful place to live. Since I was selecting a site for and building the first overseas factory for my company, it was incumbent on me to 'get it right' (company owned by a Minnesota wheat farmer who had very little patience for things going wrong due to 'local customs').
So I read some and spent a lot of time driving around and talking to people.
One thing that Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia all share, coming from the British colonial experience is an Internal Security Act. Essentially, this handy little chunk of laws makes the Prime Minister and Chief Justice, acting together, empowered to get around habeas corpus. In other words, if they agree each year (it's an annual certification) that a person should be locked up, locked up he shall be. Without specific charges. And he stays locked up until such time as the PM and CJ feel he should go free. Some of the Islamic radicals from the late 1980's and early 1990's are still locked up on a little island off the coast near Penang.

Diver: before you get too happy with the Malaysians, consider that the Irishmen are essentially in lockup themselves. They can have their bar, but they have no passports and can't leave and the Malaysians have a very close security relationship with Britain, Australia and the US. I doubt the Irishmen can do much other than drink and fulminate.

sappstuf
2/29/2012, 10:24 PM
Per se. Lol

I am not sure what his point was in making that statement. My guess is that there are many factions of the Taliban and there are some that we can deal with to negotiate a peace.

I think he has actually making a very dumb statement that the Taliban could change and then they wouldn't be our enemies anymore.. Sorta like if the Nazis would have just been a little less Nazi like they wouldn't have been our enemy anymore... Dumb.

Anyway, I just ran across this highly ironic headline in the NYTimes this morning..


Beheadings Raise Doubts That Taliban Have Changed (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/world/asia/beheadings-in-afghanistan-are-grim-reminder-of-extremes-of-taliban-law.html?_r=4)

Gee... You think?

diverdog
2/29/2012, 10:59 PM
I think he has actually making a very dumb statement that the Taliban could change and then they wouldn't be our enemies anymore.. Sorta like if the Nazis would have just been a little less Nazi like they wouldn't have been our enemy anymore... Dumb.

Anyway, I just ran across this highly ironic headline in the NYTimes this morning..



Gee... You think?

I think we are in the middle of an opium war and we need to get out. Pick a side, give them weapons and let them kill each other.

KantoSooner
3/1/2012, 10:19 AM
Not that I think you can do much else, but that's exactly what we did in the mid-1980's. Didn't work out entirely perfectly.

TUSooner
3/1/2012, 10:41 AM
**** consider that the Irishmen are essentially in lockup themselves. They can have their bar, but they have no passports and can't leave and the Malaysians have a very close security relationship with Britain, Australia and the US. I doubt the Irishmen can do much other than drink and fulminate. I'm pretty sure they prefer the drinking. Just sayin'. Now, back to the discussion!

KantoSooner
3/1/2012, 12:03 PM
Ehhhh, not sure on that last. Pretty hard to determine which comes first for the Irishmen I know.

TUSooner
3/1/2012, 01:31 PM
Ehhhh, not sure on that last. Pretty hard to determine which comes first for the Irishmen I know.
Yeah. Come to think of it, based on the Irishmen I know, drinking and fulminating often to go hand in hand, the latter generally fueled by the former. :)