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SicEmBaylor
2/19/2012, 07:35 PM
Most people have probably never heard of Roger Stone, but he's a titan in the world of GOP consulting.


Roger J. Stone Jr, the celebrated political consultant, lobbyist and strategist, and youngest staffer on Richard Nixon’s 1972 re-election campaign, announced Wednesday that he has quit the Republican Party. Stone - who has been noted for his use of opposition research for Republican candidates - is now registered as a Libertarian.

From the StoneZone.com:

“I registered to vote as a Republican the same day I turned 18. I registered so I could vote for Richard Nixon's re-election in 1972. I was excited to join the party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, and Reagan. For one year before leaving for college I served on the Westchester (NY) Republican County Committee.

While living in Washington's Virginia suburbs, I served on the Arlington County Republican Committee and later the Alexandria Republican City Committee. I served as Young Republican National Chairman from 1977-1979 having been elected in Nashville to follow in the footsteps of Congressman Herbert Warburton, Congressman John Ashbrook, Congressman Donald E. "Buz" Lukens, and Governor Don Sundquist.

I have worked on the campaign staff of Republican candidates in twelve national Republican Presidential campaigns. I was the youngest staffer at President Nixon's 1972 re-election committee, famously known as the Committee to Re-elect the President, or CREEP, as it became known.

In 1976, I was appointed National Director of Youth For Reagan by Senator Paul Laxalt, chairman of Citizens For Reagan. In 1980, I served as Northeast Regional Political Director for Ronald Reagan serving with skilled political operatives like Charlie Black, Frank Donatelli, Drew Lewis, J. Kenneth Klinge, Lou Kitchin, Paul Manafort and 1968 Reagan campaign veterans Frank Whetstone and Anderson Carter.

In 1984 I reprised this role in the Reagan-Bush re-election campaign, taking on Ohio in addition to the northeastern states. I worked for Jack Kemp for president in 1988. Later in 1988, I took the title of Senior Consultant and flew to California at the direction of Bush campaign manager Jim Baker to salvage California where George H.W. Bush beat Governor Mike Dukakis by a thin one percent.

I'm happy to say I sat out the Bush 41 re-election campaign. It was a total fiasco Without Roger Ailes the campaign fizzled. In 2000, I went to Miami-Dade to supervise recount efforts, again at the request of James A. Baker III. The rest is, of course, history.

In 1976 conservative activists like National Review Publisher Bill Rusher, direct-mail genius Richard Viguerie and former Harvard College Republican Chairman and Nixon administration OEO Director Howard Philips began arguing for the abandonment of the Republican party for a new third party, largely because of the influence of the Rockefeller-Ford wing of the GOP. I argued in barrooms across Washington against this plan because I remembered Barry Goldwater's admonition to conservatives at the 1960 Republican Convention that "this Party's our historic home. If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, lets get to work."

I have always enjoyed being in the party of giants like Roscoe Conkling, Eisenhower, Theodore Roosevelt, Robert A. Taft, Thomas E. Dewey, Joe McCarthy, Henry Cabot Lodge and his brother Governor John Davis Lodge, Everett Dirksen, Caleb Boggs, John Williams, Homer Capehart, Bill Jenner, Nelson Rockefeller, George Murphy, Barry Goldwater, Walter Judd, Bill Scranton, Strom Thurmond, Jack Kemp, Bob Dole, Tom Kean, and Hamilton Fish Sr. and Jr.

Like every good Republican I hated FDR, Eleanor Roosevelt, Tip O'Neill, George McGovern, Jimmy Carter, and Teddy Kennedy. I have a tattoo of Richard Nixon on my back not because I admire his policies, but because I admire his drive and resilience.

On Monday, I left the Republican Party changing my Florida voter registration to the Libertarian Party. There are 25,000 of us registered Libertarians in Florida.

Sadly, Eisenhower, Nixon, and Reagan wouldn't recognize today's Republican Party. The GOP went from being a Main Street party under Ronald Reagan to being the Wall Street Party again under both Bush's. Bush 41 broke his "no new taxes" pledge and President George W. Bush's new entitlement programs and reckless spending made us the party of big spending and big government.

Meanwhile social conservatives in the party demand Litmus tests on issues like abortion and gay marriage equality from those who share their conservative economic and foreign policy views making a cohesive coalition of social and economic conservatives ultimately impossible.

Sadly the difference between the two major parties has become rhetorical. Under the Democrats you're going to hell. Under the Republicans, you are still going to hell but you are going more slowly.

To real conservatives the freedom of the individual is paramount. No one should be able to tell you what you can eat, drink, smoke, or marry, or what kind of gun you can own. We don't want to be snooped on by an all-knowing big brother government. That is the essence of liberty. The Republican Party has become both a party of big government but also an authoritarian party that would tell us how to live.

That the Republican Party can only produce Mitt Romney who was an independent during the Reagan-Bush years (and only converted to conservatism after serving one term as governor never intending to run for re-election while always planning to run for president), Newt Gingrich, a thrice married ego-maniac with delusions of grandeur and Rick Santorum, a religious fanatic, who would tell other people how to live, as presidential candidates proves the GOP may be going the way as the Whigs.

I fervently hoped that Donald Trump would run for president. Trump is a big thinker, with the kind of toughness and guile you need to be a successful negotiator and a successful president. While it is popular among elites to snicker at Trump his connection to average Americans and working people cannot be denied. As Neil Cavuto of Fox Business News said "No one draws ratings like Trump."

To put it bluntly the Republican Party is hopelessly f*cked up.

My first experience with the Libertarian Party was in New York where a small faction of anarchists held a state convention while refusing to allow all candidates access to the rules and a list of the voting delegates. Joe Stalin would have been proud of the tactics used to nominate a non-libertarian registered Republican who had only recently run as a candidate for the left-wing Green Party. But these childish tactics are not the norm in the largely democratic Libertarian Party. I have found Libertarian Party activists in California, Texas, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Colorado, Washington, and Michigan have proven to be democratic, reasonable, dedicated and interested in victory.

The Libertarian Party stands for both economic and personal freedom. Libertarians oppose spending, debt, taxes, big government, and costly foreign wars where our national interests are not clear. We support a woman's right to choose an abortion, gay marriage equality, and the legalization of marijuana.

The Ron Paul revolution shows me a Libertarian moment is coming. It will gather momentum in 2012 and most likely manifest itself in 2016. Ron Paul's incredibly strong support among young voters is the tip-off. American voters have never been offered a presidential candidate who took conservative positions on fiscal issues like spending, debt, and taxes, while taking freedom-based (i.e. liberal) positions on choice, gay marriage, and drug-law reform. This is clearly where a majority of Americans are.

I voted for Ron Paul in the Florida Republican Primary in my last official act as a Republican. I leave the GOP with a heavy heart. Theodore Roosevelt left the party in 1912 and he came back. Ron Paul left the party in 1988 and he came back. I don't think I will have the opportunity to come back. As the Republicans were to the Whigs in 1852, the Libertarians are to the Republicans.

Goodbye Grand Old Party.”

Roger Stone

soonerhubs
2/19/2012, 08:02 PM
Excellent write up.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/20/2012, 12:38 AM
Super, Sicem, if Dear Leader is re-elected, the whole country is SO screwed. Don't vote 3rd party, and thereby award the Obear another license to steal...and persecute.

soonerhubs
2/20/2012, 06:39 AM
Fall in line with our corrupt and misguided establishment to defeat another corrupt establishment.

No thanks!

yermom
2/20/2012, 07:51 AM
Super, Sicem, if Dear Leader is re-elected, the whole country is SO screwed. Don't vote 3rd party, and thereby award the Obear another license to steal...and persecute.

we might as well change the name if he wins

something like "USSA" sounds catchy

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/20/2012, 11:10 AM
we might as well change the name if he wins

something like "USSA" sounds catchyName changing will be the least of our worries.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/20/2012, 11:13 AM
I'll buy your 3rd party crap and wonder how Obama got re-elected, SicemThat's some heads-up politics there, guy!

XingTheRubicon
2/20/2012, 11:53 AM
Yeah, if todays Pubs could only be more like Reagan, you know, the guy who didn't mention the word "AIDS" in public until 40,000 citizens had died from the disease.


Today's politicians don't suck as bad as we'd want to imagine...the American people suck. These guys are just trying to cater to us, the most entitled, divided, and spoiled group of people on Earth.

TUSooner
2/20/2012, 12:31 PM
My favorite part:

Meanwhile social conservatives in the party demand Litmus tests on issues like abortion and gay marriage equality from those who share their conservative economic and foreign policy views making a cohesive coalition of social and economic conservatives ultimately impossible.... The Republican Party has become both a party of big government but also an authoritarian party that would tell us how to live.

That the Republican Party can only produce Mitt Romney who was an independent during the Reagan-Bush years..., Newt Gingrich, a thrice married ego-maniac with delusions of grandeur and Rick Santorum, a religious fanatic, who would tell other people how to live, as presidential candidates proves the GOP may be going the way as the Whigs.

SoonerPride
2/20/2012, 12:33 PM
Their race to the bottom continues unabated.

I'm not the only one with that viewpoint.

They are kamikaze-ing themselves screaming holy scripture and racial epithets as they flame out.

KantoSooner
2/20/2012, 12:42 PM
Mind you that the Dems long ago utterly sold their azzes to the unions and welfare recipients.
So, it's about even at this stage.

thus we have a race that any decent Republican candidate who could fog a mirror should be able to win by 20 points going away....and it'll be a dog fight that Obama will very likely win.

What's that old saw about tragedy and farce?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/20/2012, 01:16 PM
Your fear is showing, Libz. OH PLEEZE, tell us who you think we should choose for the R nominee. haha

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/20/2012, 01:21 PM
Mind you that the Dems long ago utterly sold their azzes to the unions and welfare recipients.
So, it's about even at this stage.

thus we have a race that any decent Republican candidate who could fog a mirror should be able to win by 20 points going away....and it'll be a dog fight that OBAMA VERY LIKELY WILL WIN.

What's that old saw about tragedy and farce?only if some foolish, vindictive or paid-off perceived conservative is a 3rd party candidate.

Curly Bill
2/20/2012, 01:40 PM
Yeah, if todays Pubs could only be more like Reagan, you know, the guy who didn't mention the word "AIDS" in public until 40,000 citizens had died from the disease.


Today's politicians don't suck as bad as we'd want to imagine...the American people suck. These guys are just trying to cater to us, the most entitled, divided, and spoiled group of people on Earth.

The ol we get what we deserve angle? I tend to agree with ya to a large degree on that.

soonercruiser
2/20/2012, 01:44 PM
WOW!
You scared me for a moment.....I thought that it was Litt Romney!
:playful:

SanJoaquinSooner
2/20/2012, 02:23 PM
Super, Sicem, if Dear Leader is re-elected, the whole country is SO screwed. Don't vote 3rd party, and thereby award the Obear another license to steal...and persecute.

Even if Obama wins, I don't expect the donks to take both houses. They might not take either. I would expect a stalemated second term.

badger
2/20/2012, 02:30 PM
Super, Sicem, if Dear Leader is re-elected, the whole country is SO screwed. Don't vote 3rd party, and thereby award the Obear another license to steal...and persecute.

If the Republicans don't sweep everything in 2012, it will not be the end of the world.

Unchecked one-sided governments lead to wacky legislation and unpopular ideas forced down our throats (like Obamacare).

Pick a winning battle here: Cheer on having a Republican majority House or Republican majority Senate if you can't have a Republican president.

SoonerPride
2/20/2012, 02:41 PM
unpopular ideas forced down our throats (like Obamacare).


The majority of Americans favor the Affordable Care Act and the individual mandate.

It's not unanimous but is hardly unpopular.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/14/cnn-poll-support-rises-for-health-insurance-mandate/

Midtowner
2/20/2012, 02:47 PM
The majority of Americans favor the Affordable Care Act and the individual mandate.

It's not unanimous but is hardly unpopular.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/14/cnn-poll-support-rises-for-health-insurance-mandate/

Sometimes it takes time for facts to catch up to demagoguery.

badger
2/20/2012, 02:53 PM
The majority of Americans favor the Affordable Care Act and the individual mandate.

It's not unanimous but is hardly unpopular.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/14/cnn-poll-support-rises-for-health-insurance-mandate/

I like that you are acknowledging that it is not unanimous, but I would like you to try to be a bit more on this one --- they aren't forcing the legislation through now. They forced it through in 2010.

I will also give and take a bit in this debate: Many unpopular ideas - unpopular when passed by Congress - have passed the history books test. Voters might have hated some things that our elected leaders decided for us at the time, but in retrospect, they were good decisions. Perhaps the same thing will be said after awhile about Obamacare.

However, I don't think there's any doubt that voters were unhappy when this was shoved down their throats in 2010, hence the giant turnover in Congress from Dem to Rep that cost the left its majority in the House and nearly cost it the Senate, too.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/20/2012, 02:55 PM
If the Republicans don't sweep everything in 2012, it will not be the end of the world.

Unchecked one-sided governments lead to wacky legislation and unpopular ideas forced down our throats (like Obamacare).

Pick a winning battle here: Cheer on having a Republican majority House or Republican majority Senate if you can't have a Republican president.I'm glad I was born when I was. What's going on now prescribes Trouble ahead, and prolly pretty soon.

SoonerPride
2/20/2012, 02:58 PM
I like that you are acknowledging that it is not unanimous, but I would like you to try to be a bit more on this one --- they aren't forcing the legislation through now. They forced it through in 2010.

I will also give and take a bit in this debate: Many unpopular ideas - unpopular when passed by Congress - have passed the history books test. Voters might have hated some things that our elected leaders decided for us at the time, but in retrospect, they were good decisions. Perhaps the same thing will be said after awhile about Obamacare.

However, I don't think there's any doubt that voters were unhappy when this was shoved down their throats in 2010, hence the giant turnover in Congress from Dem to Rep that cost the left its majority in the House and nearly cost it the Senate, too.

As Midtowner noted
Sometimes it takes time for facts to catch up to demagoguery.

It may have been unpopular at the time because the right did a great job of scaring the hell out of people with talk of "death panels" and other nonsense.

Once people learned more about it, they liked it.

Curly Bill
2/20/2012, 03:29 PM
As Midtowner noted

It may have been unpopular at the time because the right did a great job of scaring the hell out of people with talk of "death panels" and other nonsense.

Once people learned more about it, they liked it.

By people, you mean losers like you that need government to take care of them?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/20/2012, 04:39 PM
By people, you mean losers like you that need government to take care of them?I dunno if "loser" is considered a personal insult, but your clarity is laudable.

Midtowner
2/20/2012, 04:54 PM
By people, you mean losers like you that need government to take care of them?

Do you have health insurance?

XingTheRubicon
2/20/2012, 04:56 PM
By people, you mean losers like you that need government to take care of them?

pretty much

Turd_Ferguson
2/20/2012, 05:02 PM
Do you have health insurance?Do your employees?

Midtowner
2/20/2012, 05:14 PM
Do your employees?

Under the Affordable Care Act, I believe they will.

How about you, do you have health insurance?

Sooner5030
2/20/2012, 05:16 PM
almost no one has Health "insurance". Pooling selective/routine/preventive care costs with everyone else is not f-ing insurance.....it's a managed health care plan. We just call it insurance so the frogs don't realize the water is getting warmer.

/sorry for the threadjack

Midtowner
2/20/2012, 05:19 PM
almost no one has Health "insurance". Pooling selective/routine/preventive care costs with everyone else is not f-ing insurance.

/sorry for the threadjack

The ACA is going to fix a lot of that by mandating a lot more coverage. Yes it is insurance. You're equivocating as the definition of the word. Auto insurance is no different. I am insured when I am at fault, but unless I carry special UM, I have to depend on the idiot who hits me not being too much of an idiot to carry minimum liability or nothing at all.

Sooner5030
2/20/2012, 05:26 PM
The ACA is going to fix a lot of that by mandating a lot more coverage. Yes it is insurance. You're equivocating as the definition of the word. Auto insurance is no different. I am insured when I am at fault, but unless I carry special UM, I have to depend on the idiot who hits me not being too much of an idiot to carry minimum liability or nothing at all.

Which is why universal coverage will never be affordable. I'd actually support a VA baseline coverage for everyone (with a new 4% healthcare tax paid by everyone with wages) to cover non-selective care. If you don't like the VA level service than pay out of pocket for insurance.

But if you're gonna include Ritalin, Birth Control, Prozac, Viagra, C-T machines and everything else to help your friends in big PHARMA, Med Tech and FSA then hell no.

And Health Insurance / Car Analogies don't work very well. Do you want state farm to pay for your f-ing oil change or tire replacement?

KantoSooner
2/20/2012, 05:35 PM
Would it be too much to ask that we have a debate on this issue? (considering that we never actually had one though we all talked about the positiioning that was leading up to the debate).

Here are some things to consider:

1) The pre-Obama system was a system. It sucked, yes, but it was a system. One thing that sucked about it was that those of us who paid for insurance or directly for care also subsidized those folks who seem to show up at the ER for any and all maladies. Generally long after they are easily and cheaply treatable.
So, limited numbers of the population covered at an unreasonable cost that seems to have risen every year in my 50 years with no end in sight until every dollar in our economy would be sucked into teh medical system maw.

2. But we've got the best the world has to offer, yes? No. Not even close. Measure it however you want, our 'system' provides mediocre care and VERY mediocre results. We're sicker and pay more, than any comparable society on earth. And no, the Canadians and Brits are not clamoring to get into the US.

3. But Obama won't let us get the care we want from the Doctors we want. Maybe. I don't know. I do know that in many single payer systems (Japan and Australia, for two) you can get the procedures you want (okay, not nose jobs, but I sense that would not be a big sticking point) from the doctors you want. Choice, choice, choice all from a single payer, government run system that costs half what we pay.

Those are only three points that I think we ought to think about. Maybe there is a way to preserve the current system and control cost, extend coverage and improve performance. I'm willing to listen. But let's not pretend that pre-Obama everything was rosy except for a few stubborn cranks who refused to buy insurance. We had/have problems. A real debate would be nice. Not just a midnight kludge (thank you dems) vs. a head-in-the-sand refusal to address any problems (thank you reps).

Midtowner
2/20/2012, 05:38 PM
Which is why universal coverage will never be affordable. I'd actually support a VA baseline coverage for everyone (with a new 4% healthcare tax paid by everyone with wages) to cover non-selective care. If you don't like the VA level service than pay out of pocket for insurance.

But if you're gonna include Ritalin, Birth Control, Prozac, Viagra, C-T machines and everything else to help your friends in big PHARMA, Med Tech and FSA then hell no.

Universal coverage can work if the system is built to keep costs down through only covering certain things or by cutting the amounts they pay to providers. Pharma is an interesting area. Just about every country in the world tells pharma what they're going to get for their medications and pharma does business there anyhow. Why we are the only State which chooses to allow pharma to charge whatever it wants to charge is evidence that this system will probably collapse.

I'm anxious to see that happen so that we can look at Germany or Canada-like systems which take better advantage of economies of scale and are a lot less corruptible.


And Health Insurance / Car Analogies don't work very well. Do you want state farm to pay for your f-ing oil change or tire replacement?

Would I like to be given the run around until the statute of limitations runs out so someone can pay for my oil change, and have the fact that it is now covered by insurance increase the cost to $500? Nope.

Sooner5030
2/20/2012, 05:43 PM
Would it be too much to ask that we have a debate on this issue? (considering that we never actually had one though we all talked about the positiioning that was leading up to the debate).

Here are some things to consider:

1) The pre-Obama system was a system. It sucked, yes, but it was a system. One thing that sucked about it was that those of us who paid for insurance or directly for care also subsidized those folks who seem to show up at the ER for any and all maladies. Generally long after they are easily and cheaply treatable.
So, limited numbers of the population covered at an unreasonable cost that seems to have risen every year in my 50 years with no end in sight until every dollar in our economy would be sucked into teh medical system maw.

2. But we've got the best the world has to offer, yes? No. Not even close. Measure it however you want, our 'system' provides mediocre care and VERY mediocre results. We're sicker and pay more, than any comparable society on earth. And no, the Canadians and Brits are not clamoring to get into the US.

3. But Obama won't let us get the care we want from the Doctors we want. Maybe. I don't know. I do know that in many single payer systems (Japan and Australia, for two) you can get the procedures you want (okay, not nose jobs, but I sense that would not be a big sticking point) from the doctors you want. Choice, choice, choice all from a single payer, government run system that costs half what we pay.

Those are only three points that I think we ought to think about. Maybe there is a way to preserve the current system and control cost, extend coverage and improve performance. I'm willing to listen. But let's not pretend that pre-Obama everything was rosy except for a few stubborn cranks who refused to buy insurance. We had/have problems. A real debate would be nice. Not just a midnight kludge (thank you dems) vs. a head-in-the-sand refusal to address any problems (thank you reps).

I'd say everything pre-HMO was pretty rosy.....at least for those of us that actually paid out of pocket for routine/preventive and then paid a premium with a bunch of other folks just in case something catastrophic occurred that we couldn't afford. IT might not have been rosy for those that couldn't afford though. We did have indigent care facilities then also.

Universal "free" coverage creates problems that you may not be contemplating. Once we pool all our health care costs the only folks that get their money's worth are those that receive more services than what they pay in. Everyone wants to get their money's worth. This will create more visits to clinics and ERs since it is "free" or because your individual costs are free or at least fixed.

If there is no control to prevent Er/visit abuse then the system will collapse on FSA abuse.

Curly Bill
2/21/2012, 08:24 AM
Do you have health insurance?

I do, and I did it all without the help of the good ol US govt. Hard to believe right?

Midtowner
2/21/2012, 08:27 AM
I do, and I did it all without the help of the good ol US govt. Hard to believe right?

Do you like paying higher premiums because other people choose not to have insurance?

Curly Bill
2/21/2012, 08:30 AM
Do you like paying higher premiums because other people choose not to have insurance?

If you're trying to indicate I'm gonna get out cheaper when the govt is running things you're high.

badger
2/21/2012, 10:02 AM
If you're trying to indicate I'm gonna get out cheaper when the govt is running things you're high.

Perhaps it will be cheaper, perhaps it won't, but I suspect it won't be as readily accessible.

As a member of a Native American tribe, my family's entitled to free checkups. Alas, because every member of the tribe is also entitled, it's a six-month wait to schedule an appointment. The care is what you get elsewhere, and it's free, but there's a HUGE line in front of you to receive it at any given moment.

I suspect the same thing will happen when the government takes over. Thus, I suspect that people will still use the ER for their children's fevers and other non-emergencies, because this is not an era of patience and waiting in lines. This is the "I WANT IT NOW" era.

Curly Bill
2/21/2012, 10:05 AM
Perhaps it will be cheaper, perhaps it won't, but I suspect it won't be as readily accessible.

As a member of a Native American tribe, my family's entitled to free checkups. Alas, because every member of the tribe is also entitled, it's a six-month wait to schedule an appointment. The care is what you get elsewhere, and it's free, but there's a HUGE line in front of you to receive it at any given moment.

I suspect the same thing will happen when the government takes over. Thus, I suspect that people will still use the ER for their children's fevers and other non-emergencies, because this is not an era of patience and waiting in lines. This is the "I WANT IT NOW" era.

Ain't nothing free. Someone somewhere is paying for it. In the case of govt run/administered health care that someone will be us the people.

badger
2/21/2012, 10:20 AM
Ain't nothing free. Someone somewhere is paying for it. In the case of govt run/administered health care that someone will be us the people.

I get that political discussions require you to be careful with your wording, but when Walmart is handing out free samples of sausage on a weekend day, I'm not thinking about the high cost of low prices or whatever, that sliver of sausage is FREE.

The same can be said for the tribal healthcare plans. It's basically free to the user and that's what I meant.

Curly Bill
2/21/2012, 10:45 AM
Maybe I'm a pessimist but I believe in the basic economic concept: TINSTAFL

There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

Someone somewhere pays for everything. Someone paid for that hog used to make the sausage, someone paid for it's feed, someone paid to get it to butchered, someone paid to get it to Walmart and someone is paying the person handing out the free samples. It may be free to you on the surface, but someone somewhere is paying for your free sample.

In the case of govt run health care those of us who are employed and pay taxes will be paying for everyone elses "free" health care.

KantoSooner
2/21/2012, 10:58 AM
In the case of Indian Health, the indians 'paid' for this health care by agreeing to give up 3.8 million square miles of prime real estate. They do get some other stuff as well; although I think the government cheese ran out back in the early '90's.
Pretty good deal for the USofA, really.

JohnnyMack
2/21/2012, 11:14 AM
Your fear is showing, Libz. OH PLEEZE, tell us who you think we should choose for the R nominee. haha

When I imagine SicEm trying to explain the difference between a Libertarian and a Neo-Con to RLIMC, I imagine Rush with this look on his face.

http://pda.88000.org/wallpapers/18/Confused_Dog.jpg

Midtowner
2/21/2012, 11:22 AM
In the case of govt run health care those of us who are employed and pay taxes will be paying for everyone elses "free" health care.

First, "government run" is a misnomer. Under the Affordable Care Act, there is no public option. All healthcare will be purchased through private entities (aside from Medicaid/Medicare).

The difference is that instead of just the folks with insurance paying for everyone, including those who don't have insurance, everyone will have to pitch in. Instead of folks financing their healthcare through the bankruptcy code, they'll be able to participate in insurance plans which will cover a lot of what is not covered now. Since the risk will be spread around more, everyone's cost should go down, especially with the 80/20 profit rule in place.

It's a win-win for everyone except for the deadbeats who want to finance their emergency healthcare by declaring bankruptcy or just not paying the bills.

Ton Loc
2/21/2012, 11:23 AM
In the case of govt run health care those of us who are employed and pay taxes will be paying for everyone elses "free" health care.

Just wondering, but who is paying for their healthcare now? I assumed I always paid for it in one way or another. I think you alluded to it in your post as TINSTAFL.

So I shouldn't have a problem with it now, but if Obama or someone else wants to try to do something where I'm no worse off than before I should get mad?

Sweet! Life is easy.

badger
2/21/2012, 11:41 AM
It's a win-win for everyone except for the deadbeats who want to finance their emergency healthcare by declaring bankruptcy or just not paying the bills.

I wonder... would health bills be considered like college bills when it comes to bankruptcy?

It's not like you can return a college education if you default on paying back student loans, which is the reasoning behind bankruptcy not clearing education debt burdens. In fact, I've heard that any form of attempting to default on student loans actually makes it worse (wage garnishment, higher up-front payments, etc).

Since the government is footing the college bills and will likely be footing some health bills, I could see this happening. The government likes to screw YOU, it doesn't like being screwed BY you.

StoopTroup
2/21/2012, 11:59 AM
Maybe I'm a pessimist

Maybe?

StoopTroup
2/21/2012, 12:15 PM
Just wondering, but who is paying for their healthcare now? I assumed I always paid for it in one way or another. I think you alluded to it in your post as TINSTAFL.

So I shouldn't have a problem with it now, but if Obama or someone else wants to try to do something where I'm no worse off than before I should get mad?

Sweet! Life is easy.Part of a little blog I always find interesting....

So Congress sits up on their golden thrones, deciding how much bread they’re going to take off your table, and what bargain rights someone who works 80-hours a week will be allowed to have, and how much Americans must sacrifice for the sake of improving the economy — while they relish in a veritable Roman orgy of money, perks and benefits.
It’s getting closer and closer to torches and pitchforks in the street outside the Capitol Building.

badger
2/21/2012, 12:19 PM
Part of a little blog I always find interesting....

So Congress sits up on their golden thrones, deciding how much bread they’re going to take off your table, and what bargain rights someone who works 80-hours a week will be allowed to have, and how much Americans must sacrifice for the sake of improving the economy — while they relish in a veritable Roman orgy of money, perks and benefits.
It’s getting closer and closer to torches and pitchforks in the street outside the Capitol Building.

I really wish that when the Republicans took office with the "Contract with America," that they had gotten federal office term limits imposed. I get that they're not a blanket solution to the lifelong politician problem, but they do help prevent some of the more notorious cases (like West Virginia's Sen. Byrd creating tons of things to immortalize himself)

StoopTroup
2/21/2012, 12:22 PM
I really wish that when the Republicans took office with the "Contract with America," that they had gotten federal office term limits imposed. I get that they're not a blanket solution to the lifelong politician problem, but they do help prevent some of the more notorious cases (like West Virginia's Sen. Byrd creating tons of things to immortalize himself)

I think I dislike the 6 Months to fully vested clause. There shouldn't be any clause. If we didn't give them so much they might learn to serve for citizenship instead of unlimited wealth and benefits.

soonercruiser
2/21/2012, 12:37 PM
I really wish that when the Republicans took office with the "Contract with America," that they had gotten federal office term limits imposed. I get that they're not a blanket solution to the lifelong politician problem, but they do help prevent some of the more notorious cases (like West Virginia's Sen. Byrd creating tons of things to immortalize himself)

I agree wholeheartedly!
And, I am from WV.
(Ted Kennedy died before he could eclipse Byrd. But, then again, Byrd fiddled around in another location!)
:tennis:

Curly Bill
2/21/2012, 12:49 PM
Just wondering, but who is paying for their healthcare now? I assumed I always paid for it in one way or another. I think you alluded to it in your post as TINSTAFL.

So I shouldn't have a problem with it now, but if Obama or someone else wants to try to do something where I'm no worse off than before I should get mad?

Sweet! Life is easy.

Naw man, be happy. I mean with govt running the health care system I can't imagine how things could be worse.

StoopTroup
2/21/2012, 12:57 PM
I don't smoke and I seldom ever have a drink and they seem to be collecting a lot of money from that stuff. I think it should cover my healthcare.

Curly Bill
2/21/2012, 01:00 PM
I don't smoke and I seldom ever have a drink and they seem to be collecting a lot of money from that stuff. I think it should cover my healthcare.

Don't worry about a thing. The good ol US govt. has got this all taken care of, and I hear its free!

StoopTroup
2/21/2012, 01:04 PM
Don't worry about a thing. The good ol US govt. has got this all taken care of, and I hear its free!

I need a tooth fixed too.

Curly Bill
2/21/2012, 01:07 PM
I need a tooth fixed too.

I got one going bad as well. I for one welcome this brave new world where govt will take care of all our needs. I just hope I can hang on til this Obama care thing is fully functional so I can get it looked at for free.

StoopTroup
2/21/2012, 01:13 PM
I got one going bad as well. I for one welcome this brave new world where govt will take care of all our needs. I just hope I can hang on til this Obama care thing is fully functional so I can get it looked at for free.

At our age...you should be less worried about who is gonna pay for it and just be thankful that if you do have to pay anything.....over time it won't be that expensive for us. The youth of America want free healthcare and I am all for it....especially if it's by seniority. :D ;)

Mississippi Sooner
2/21/2012, 01:22 PM
Aww, come on. All a real cowboy needs to take care of a tooth problem is a bottle of whiskey and a pair of pliers.

Curly Bill
2/21/2012, 01:32 PM
Aww, come on. All a real cowboy needs to take care of a tooth problem is a bottle of whiskey and a pair of pliers.

I already have both of those things! I can't imagine how though, as neither was provided to me by our elected officials. It's quite a mystery???

badger
2/21/2012, 01:35 PM
And, I am from WV.

You must already have your tickets to a certain game in Morgantown this November :D

Ton Loc
2/21/2012, 01:47 PM
Don't worry about a thing. The good ol US govt. has got this all taken care of, and I hear its free!

Right on!

SicEmBaylor
2/21/2012, 06:25 PM
When I imagine SicEm trying to explain the difference between a Libertarian and a Neo-Con to RLIMC, I imagine Rush with this look on his face.

http://pda.88000.org/wallpapers/18/Confused_Dog.jpg
http://gifs.gifbin.com/1238157980_scanners_-_head_explosion.gif

SicEmBaylor
2/21/2012, 06:41 PM
No thanks!
Give him credit -- he can layout an inspirational argument. ;)


Your fear is showing, Libz. OH PLEEZE, tell us who you think we should choose for the R nominee. haha
I don't think a single liberal anywhere in the country is shaking in their boots over the prospect of a Santorum nomination. However, everyone should shake in their boots over a Santorum election unlikely as it may be.

only if some foolish, vindictive or paid-off perceived conservative is a 3rd party candidate.
http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/647-lol-wut.png


I don't smoke and I seldom ever have a drink and they seem to be collecting a lot of money from that stuff. I think it should cover my healthcare.
I highly suggest you drink more.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/21/2012, 08:53 PM
http://gifs.gifbin.com/1238157980_scanners_-_head_explosion.gifWell that's nice. I wonder where JohnnyMack has been hiding, and why either one of you think I wouldn't know the difference between a neo-con and a Libertarian...no, I really don't care what you think about that. What's important is stopping Obama's re-election.

Midtowner
2/21/2012, 10:44 PM
I wonder... would health bills be considered like college bills when it comes to bankruptcy?

I don't think so. Remember where the whole student loans are not dischargable thing came from. Back then, private banks were underwriting the loans, so they lobbied for free money and got it. It wasn't because the government was footing the bill back then (although they may have guaranteed the loans, I'd have to look into that one).

I'm a little more comfortable that the Dept. of Ed. has taken over the loan business. If the taxpayers are taking the risk, the taxpayers should get the profit.

StoopTroup
2/21/2012, 11:12 PM
I already have both of those things! I can't imagine how though, as neither was provided to me by our elected officials. It's quite a mystery???

If you run for office and pull your own tooth with pliers on TV...I will vote for you.