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View Full Version : How Can You Want Less Govt. Intrusion But Support Govt. Sanctioned Prayer In Schools?



lexsooner
2/18/2012, 06:53 PM
It would seem that those who want less government intrusion in our lives would be the most opposed to school officials having anything to do with leading prayers in schools or otherwise having involvement in their kids' religious activities or beliefs. Yet the opposite appears true. Can anyone explain this?

Turd_Ferguson
2/18/2012, 07:06 PM
There is Govt. sanctioned prayer's in school?

C&CDean
2/18/2012, 08:07 PM
OK. Is it ****tard starts a dumbass thread night or what?

olevetonahill
2/18/2012, 08:23 PM
I once ordered a Pizza with anchovies
I wont do that again

Turd_Ferguson
2/18/2012, 08:39 PM
I once ordered a veggie burger.
I won't do that again.

hawaii 5-0
2/18/2012, 08:55 PM
Real pizza has anchovies.

I love real pizza.

Do the math.

5-0

hawaii 5-0
2/18/2012, 08:57 PM
I once ordered a veggie burger.
I won't do that again.


I know better, from seeing other people suffer.

Didja swell up like a toad?

5-0

jkjsooner
2/24/2012, 04:12 PM
It would seem that those who want less government intrusion in our lives would be the most opposed to school officials having anything to do with leading prayers in schools or otherwise having involvement in their kids' religious activities or beliefs. Yet the opposite appears true. Can anyone explain this?

I'll answer this. I don't think anyone wants government mandated prayer nor do I think many would want the school (an extension of the government) to force a child to partake in a prayer.

I would guess some would say that a teacher has a right to act on his or her own behalf in leading a prayer so long as students could opt out. They would see this as less government intrusion as the teacher has more freedom to act on her own behalf and the students who can opt out experience no more or less government intrusion.

I don't see it this way but I'm sure some do.

okie52
2/24/2012, 04:16 PM
Real pizza has anchovies.

I love real pizza.

Do the math.

5-0

Absolutely.

yermom
2/24/2012, 04:28 PM
I'll answer this. I don't think anyone wants government mandated prayer nor do I think many would want the school (an extension of the government) to force a child to partake in a prayer.

I would guess some would say that a teacher has a right to act on his or her own behalf in leading a prayer so long as students could opt out. They would see this as less government intrusion as the teacher has more freedom to act on her own behalf and the students who can opt out experience no more or less government intrusion.

I don't see it this way but I'm sure some do.

it doesn't really work that way, not in the classroom anyway

badger
2/24/2012, 04:45 PM
I think it has to do with the fact that it's disallowed. It's like having a sanctioned day for kids to wear jeans instead of school uniforms, or seniors trying to get their schools to allow for a prank day, or a skip day.

So, I think that's the difference here. Allowing something that's currently disallowed.

jkjsooner
2/24/2012, 05:43 PM
it doesn't really work that way, not in the classroom anyway

I was just trying to project some possible alternative ways to view the situation. Like I said, it's not how I view it.

Soonerjeepman
2/28/2012, 03:03 PM
I'd say it's more the fact it's disallowed...

example..we have a school uniform..although we are a public school...based out of poor..gang related situations...uniforms are cheaper..

anyways..we allow the muslim girls to wear whatever they want because it is their RELIGIOUS belief.....but don't allow Christians to pray..hmm....religious persecution? and unfair...

jkjsooner
2/28/2012, 06:08 PM
anyways..we allow the muslim girls to wear whatever they want because it is their RELIGIOUS belief.....but don't allow Christians to pray..hmm....religious persecution? and unfair...

Who said we don't allow Christians to pray? You want your kid to pray in school nobody will stop him as long as he/she does it at a time that is not disruptive to the learning process. If your kid wants to form some prayer group nobody will stop him.

The question comes in when a school representative leads some type prayer or endorses some type of official prayer (even if it's led by a student).

OU_Sooners75
2/28/2012, 06:36 PM
Who said we don't allow Christians to pray? You want your kid to pray in school nobody will stop him as long as he/she does it at a time that is not disruptive to the learning process. If your kid wants to form some prayer group nobody will stop him.

The question comes in when a school representative leads some type prayer or endorses some type of official prayer (even if it's led by a student).

Is that why they have stopped the "pray at the poll" where kids would show up early at school and meet at the flag pole to say a prayer before school?

They put that to a stop real quick when I was in high school.

The point being...the US government is turning their head to some religion while scorning others for practicing their beliefs in public.

Midtowner
2/28/2012, 06:38 PM
I'd say it's more the fact it's disallowed...

example..we have a school uniform..although we are a public school...based out of poor..gang related situations...uniforms are cheaper..

anyways..we allow the muslim girls to wear whatever they want because it is their RELIGIOUS belief.....but don't allow Christians to pray..hmm....religious persecution? and unfair...

Does your religion decree that you be able to wear jeans and a FUBU shirt to school?

OU_Sooners75
2/28/2012, 06:44 PM
Does your religion decree that you be able to wear jeans and a FUBU shirt to school?

No, my religion prays to the Fonz!

(would insert youtube video clip, but damn youtube makes you go to a new site for them). Stupid copyright laws...LOL

OhU1
2/28/2012, 09:35 PM
The whole "get government out of our lives" mantra is not a true Republican position, if it ever has been. Republicans love government, they just want to use its power in other areas from the Dims. I'd wager that at least 50% of current Repubs and Tea Party folk would be overjoyed with daily mandated Christian prayer in the schools. After all, whats the harm? The majority in the U.S. are good Christian people so if you don't like it sit still and be quiet for 5 minutes.

Turd_Ferguson
2/29/2012, 08:29 AM
I'd wager that at least 50% of current Repubs and Tea Party folk would be overjoyed with daily mandated Christian prayer in the schools.Psst...your ignorance is showing.

Midtowner
2/29/2012, 08:34 AM
I don't see it this way but I'm sure some do.

I don't really care how you or anyone else sees it. The SCOTUS has pretty clearly defined the relationship between religion and schools. Yes, there are some doddering neanderthals who believe otherwise, but it's a fact vs. opinion type of a situation. In such a situation, fact wins.

TUSooner
2/29/2012, 08:51 AM
I am definitely in favor of anchovies, on pizza and a few other places as well.

TUSooner
2/29/2012, 08:54 AM
**** [A]t least 50% of current Repubs and Tea Party folk would be overjoyed with daily mandated Christian prayer in the schools. After all, whats the harm? The majority in the U.S. are good Christian people so if you don't like it sit still and be quiet for 5 minutes. I get many emails from family members and other "right-thinking people" that say exactly that.

Turd_Ferguson
2/29/2012, 09:04 AM
I get many emails from family members and other "right-thinking people" that say exactly that.You get many? Can you show one?

Bourbon St Sooner
2/29/2012, 04:57 PM
My kids pray in school every day. Of course they go to Catholic school. Those other schools that I pay for aren't worth a flying ****.

Also, I'm not for anchovies but capers are the awesome.

stoops the eternal pimp
2/29/2012, 05:06 PM
My kids pray at school every day...They just aren't made to..

OhU1
2/29/2012, 09:13 PM
Psst...your ignorance is showing.
Yeah, 50% is absurdly low. That would be the population at large. I would venture among proclaimed conservatives the number would be 80% +

Midtowner
2/29/2012, 10:08 PM
My kids pray in school every day. Of course they go to Catholic school. Those other schools that I pay for aren't worth a flying ****.

Also, I'm not for anchovies but capers are the awesome.

I went to Catholic schools.. the only time I prayed was when it got me out of class...

yermom
2/29/2012, 10:20 PM
I get many emails from family members and other "right-thinking people" that say exactly that.

i like this one that's making the rounds

http://blog.beliefnet.com/watchwomanonthewall/files/2012/02/God-why-do-you-allow-so-much-violence-in-schools1.jpg

AlboSooner
2/29/2012, 10:23 PM
My kids pray at school every day...They just aren't made to..

Reason is not allowed. getouttahere

SoonerAtKU
3/1/2012, 11:42 AM
i like this one that's making the rounds

http://blog.beliefnet.com/watchwomanonthewall/files/2012/02/God-why-do-you-allow-so-much-violence-in-schools1.jpg

Fonts! Even God is bad at mixing fonts in his emails.

Turd_Ferguson
3/1/2012, 11:57 AM
i like this one that's making the rounds

http://blog.beliefnet.com/watchwomanonthewall/files/2012/02/God-why-do-you-allow-so-much-violence-in-schools1.jpgRight, so that's saying "mandatory prayer in schools"?...Thanks for making my point.

Midtowner
3/1/2012, 12:06 PM
i like this one that's making the rounds

http://blog.beliefnet.com/watchwomanonthewall/files/2012/02/God-why-do-you-allow-so-much-violence-in-schools1.jpg

God not allowed in public schools? Y'all just like to make **** up to see what sticks.

Soonerjeepman
3/1/2012, 02:41 PM
Does your religion decree that you be able to wear jeans and a FUBU shirt to school?

what does that mean? the Muslim girls are supposed to be covered head to toe..and they are exempt from the REQUIREMENT to wear a uniform due to their religious beliefs..therefor allowing them to practice their religious beliefs in a public school...but we don't allow Christian students to hold any public prayer service in school...student lead or not...

guess I don't see that as equal or fair...and for what it's worth...I'm not advocating a full blown time for prayer..but if students or a group want to so be it...it'd be interesting to see if some Muslim's challenged to have their prayer time...how the courts would react..

Guess I'm not getting your connection...

SoonerAtKU
3/1/2012, 03:06 PM
Christian students are not required by their religion to hold public prayer service. Also, you be sure and let me know the next time school administration rushes on the field at the end of a high school football game and breaks up the group prayers that happen there.

Midtowner
3/1/2012, 04:08 PM
what does that mean? the Muslim girls are supposed to be covered head to toe..and they are exempt from the REQUIREMENT to wear a uniform due to their religious beliefs..therefor allowing them to practice their religious beliefs in a public school...but we don't allow Christian students to hold any public prayer service in school...student lead or not...

You don't understand the law here. Don't worry, that's not uncommon. The fact is that you do have First Amendment religious rights which are protected in the school environment. Student-led prayer is perfectly permissible. You can't use it (or any other sort of religious observance) to disrupt the classroom environment though. See you at the pole http://www.syatp.com/ (the flagpole, not the stripper or fireman pole) has been a popular student-led prayer movement since the early 90s. You're simply wrong about your belief that Christian students are somehow being marginalized though.


guess I don't see that as equal or fair...and for what it's worth...I'm not advocating a full blown time for prayer..but if students or a group want to so be it...it'd be interesting to see if some Muslim's challenged to have their prayer time...how the courts would react..

Many Muslim students observe prayer 5 times per day. Schools are required to make reasonable accommodations. Typically, that simply means they get to go out into the hall and do their thing. Some schools find it better to allow those Muslim students to utilize closets for praying so they don't disturb other children or subject themselves to bullying.


Guess I'm not getting your connection...

My connection is that while Islam decrees that females dress a certain way, your religion is silent on school uniforms or other attire. If you had a Sikh student, he'd be able to wear his turban as well as possibly carry a ceremonial knife (probably one which couldn't be removed from its holder. You can carry your Bible, lead prayers at reasonable times and do whatever religious stuff you want to do so long as it's not disruptive. That's your protected constitutional right.

TUSooner
3/1/2012, 04:18 PM
i like this one that's making the rounds

http://blog.beliefnet.com/watchwomanonthewall/files/2012/02/God-why-do-you-allow-so-much-violence-in-schools1.jpg

I haven't got that one... yet. Maybe I'll have midtowner reply for me.

SoonerAtKU
3/1/2012, 05:01 PM
Indeed TU, those are some mighty fine windmills that Jeep is tilting at.

stoops the eternal pimp
3/1/2012, 05:31 PM
As a Christian, I can tell you that most people that get their panties in a bunch about praying in schools don't pray with their kids at home..

AlboSooner
3/1/2012, 11:21 PM
As a Christian, I can tell you that most people that get their panties in a bunch about praying in schools don't pray with their kids at home..

are you me?

C&CDean
3/2/2012, 12:05 PM
are you me?

With at least 100% certainty I can state that he is not you.

For the numbnuts stating "80% of conservatives want mandated prayer in schools" I can only say watcha smokin? I'm a conservative and I'd be pissed if my kids were forced to pray. I'd guess most conservatives feel the same way.

Why? For many of the same reasons the uber-heathens on here start foaming at the mouth over this issue. What kind of prayer are they gonna be forced to say? Who's gonna lead this prayer? A Baptist? Catholic? Methodist? Jew? Muslim?

Religion should be kept at the house/church, however, if some kids want to get together and pray during free time it should be allowed as long as it doesn't disrupt others. The schools should not designate any special "prayer time" or anything else. Just allow it.

soonercruiser
3/2/2012, 02:32 PM
I don't really care how you or anyone else sees it. The SCOTUS has pretty clearly defined the relationship between religion and schools. Yes, there are some doddering neanderthals who believe otherwise, but it's a fact vs. opinion type of a situation. In such a situation, fact wins.

I "assume" that you are referring to the school administrations, school boards, city or state governments, and courts that have mandated that Muslims have time & a place to pray?
;)

Midtowner
3/2/2012, 02:45 PM
I "assume" that you are referring to the school administrations, school boards, city or state governments, and courts that have mandated that Muslims have time & a place to pray?
;)

Surely you can understand that there is a difference between accommodating religion and school-sponsored religion.

TVKaleen
3/2/2012, 03:58 PM
Surely you can understand that there is a difference between accommodating religion and school-sponsored religion.

Sure I can tell the difference. If it is Christian then it is obviously sponsoring Christian religion and if it is any other religion it is accommodation.

Of course the same arguement people make for why there can't be time set aside for Christian prayer should be made for why there can't be time set aside for Islamic or Pagan or whatever beliefs. After all, can't they just pray at anytime that doesn't disrupt normal class procedures. Any accommodation is by it's very nature "sponsorship".

OhU1
3/2/2012, 04:53 PM
The schools should not designate any special "prayer time" or anything else. Just allow it.

Dean for President! I am going to write your name in on my ballot on Tuesday.

SoonerAtKU
3/2/2012, 05:05 PM
Sure I can tell the difference. If it is Christian then it is obviously sponsoring Christian religion and if it is any other religion it is accommodation.

Of course the same arguement people make for why there can't be time set aside for Christian prayer should be made for why there can't be time set aside for Islamic or Pagan or whatever beliefs. After all, can't they just pray at anytime that doesn't disrupt normal class procedures. Any accommodation is by it's very nature "sponsorship".

Do you really not know about Muslim prayer requirements? It's not just a "when you have time" situation, exactly. When you read up a bit on the process, or when you can show me evidence of a Christian requirement regarding the time and manner of prayer, let's talk again.

TVKaleen
3/6/2012, 01:54 PM
Do you really not know about Muslim prayer requirements? It's not just a "when you have time" situation, exactly. When you read up a bit on the process, or when you can show me evidence of a Christian requirement regarding the time and manner of prayer, let's talk again.

You mistake not giving a #$#@ about their problems as being ignorant. I understand fully their religious beliefs. Now, I'm an old faith practicing human-sacrificing worshipper of the old Carthaginian gods... would you please accommodate my religious beliefs and provide a suitable human sacrifice before the next full moon? Virgins are preferred.

LiveLaughLove
3/6/2012, 02:12 PM
Always the double standard. Christianity is a second class citizen.

http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/292494/unc-greensboro-declares-christianity-not-religion-jay-schalin

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/02/bbc_chief_admits_anti-christian_bias.html

Along with WASP men, it's the last group it's ok to be openly bigoted toward.

SoonerAtKU
3/6/2012, 02:34 PM
You mistake not giving a #$#@ about their problems as being ignorant. I understand fully their religious beliefs. Now, I'm an old faith practicing human-sacrificing worshipper of the old Carthaginian gods... would you please accommodate my religious beliefs and provide a suitable human sacrifice before the next full moon? Virgins are preferred.

No, but if you want to take some time off of work on a Sunday so that you can eat a piece of your god and drink some of his blood so that you can see your pets after you die, I have no problem with that.

We can both be ridiculous! Huzzah!

KantoSooner
3/6/2012, 03:57 PM
And you win points for use of the word 'Huzzah!'. Kudos, sir. Excelsior!

SoonerLaw09
3/6/2012, 04:23 PM
No, but if you want to take some time off of work on a Sunday so that you can eat a piece of your god and drink some of his blood so that you can see your pets after you die, I have no problem with that.

We can both be ridiculous! Huzzah!

It's a good thing for you that you're making fun of Christians. If you were to say something similar about Islam, I'd fear for your safety.

KantoSooner
3/6/2012, 05:17 PM
You're absolutely right about that. Why, in this country, it's been over a hundred years since Christian mobs killed non-believers. (and I do say, '...in this country...' with care since Christian mobs have killed non-believers, explicitly for non-belief, in other countries within the last decade or so. And, if you want to look into Africa, within the last week or two.)
Still, the Muslims and Hindus are currently the poster children for violent religious intolerance.

What is it that makes the religions of herding peoples so prone to violence and rigid, male dominated hierarchy? Oh, wait! Could it be their derivation from the foundation myths of wandering tribes possessed of a sole, and easily stolen, source of wealth and generally ruled, ditatorially, by a 'Big Man'?

LiveLaughLove
3/6/2012, 05:41 PM
You're absolutely right about that. Why, in this country, it's been over a hundred years since Christian mobs killed non-believers. (and I do say, '...in this country...' with care since Christian mobs have killed non-believers, explicitly for non-belief, in other countries within the last decade or so. And, if you want to look into Africa, within the last week or two.)
Still, the Muslims and Hindus are currently the poster children for violent religious intolerance.

What is it that makes the religions of herding peoples so prone to violence and rigid, male dominated hierarchy? Oh, wait! Could it be their derivation from the foundation myths of wandering tribes possessed of a sole, and easily stolen, source of wealth and generally ruled, ditatorially, by a 'Big Man'?

I think I'll call you on this one. Where's the proof for this statement that Christians are killing people for non-belief in the last week or two? Or is this just moral equivalency hyperbole?

Remember, we are talking non-belief killings by Christians, not self defense from Muslims trying to kill them off. Now, hop to it young sportsman and show the proof of your statements.

KantoSooner
3/6/2012, 05:48 PM
February 27, 2012
Christian Youths Kill 2 Muslims In Nigeria Church Bombing Revenge

You can go do your own research. Hint: you can get lots of fun stuff under 'religiously motivated killings' on most search engines. Sadly, this sort of medieval b.s. goes on all the time.

LiveLaughLove
3/6/2012, 05:52 PM
February 27, 2012
Christian Youths Kill 2 Muslims In Nigeria Church Bombing Revenge

You can go do your own research. Hint: you can get lots of fun stuff under 'religiously motivated killings' on most search engines. Sadly, this sort of medieval b.s. goes on all the time.

Seriously? The best you have is a revenge killing against Muslims? That's not the standard you set pal. You said "killing explicitly for non-belief". That doesn't meet that bar.

Say what you mean and mean what you say. Revenge killings are done by atheists also, and are hardly the stuff of relgious extremism. Try again. This time meet your own standard you set.

KantoSooner
3/6/2012, 06:03 PM
Do.
Your.
Own.
Research.
I.
Am.
Not.
Your.
Grad.
Assistant.

And, really, when you get down to it, doesn't every murderer feel justified? The victim somehow always 'deserved it'.

LiveLaughLove
3/6/2012, 06:23 PM
I.
Really.
Have.
No.
Proof.
For.
What.
I.
Said.


I'm not condoning murder. I am simply requiring you to prove what you said earlier and you cannot do so. So you try and throw the burden of proof on me. Nice obfuscation.

Midtowner
3/6/2012, 07:04 PM
Sure I can tell the difference. If it is Christian then it is obviously sponsoring Christian religion and if it is any other religion it is accommodation.

Of course the same arguement people make for why there can't be time set aside for Christian prayer should be made for why there can't be time set aside for Islamic or Pagan or whatever beliefs. After all, can't they just pray at anytime that doesn't disrupt normal class procedures. Any accommodation is by it's very nature "sponsorship".

Oh that's horsecrap. A Christian can ask for the same exact accommodations. They don't because typically, that's not part of their religion. An accommodation isn't sponsorship, it's honoring the Free Exercise clause. Accommodations must be reasonable and non-disruptive. An accommodation does not include, for example, utilizing the school's PA system to have a school-wide student-led prayer.

Being treated fairly doesn't mean getting your way all the time.

KantoSooner
3/7/2012, 09:23 AM
No, LLL,
I made a statement, you called me on it, I provided proof, you then announced that you didn't like my proof.
I'm not required to continually go back the well until I find something that you like. You want to disagree, be my guest, but I gave you an example within 7 minutes of your challenge. That, alone, should indicate how plentiful the examples are.
Have a nice life.

TUSooner
3/7/2012, 09:52 AM
No, LLL,
I made a statement, you called me on it, I provided proof, you then announced that you didn't like my proof.
I'm not required to continually go back the well until I find something that you like. You want to disagree, be my guest, but I gave you an example within 7 minutes of your challenge. That, alone, should indicate how plentiful the examples are.
Have a nice life.

Or, as Samuel Johnson said when conversing with an obtuse person, "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."

TUSooner
3/7/2012, 10:01 AM
Dear whiny Christians: Please show me in the New Testament where our Lord said you were entitled to have everyone agree with you and to have the civil authority make it easy and painless for you to be a Christian. Then stop whining and claiming to be a martyr every time somebody says you can't have everything you want. Today the Church commemorates some real martyrs, so read about them (http://satucket.com/lectionary/Perpetua.htm), count your blessings, and stop making Jesus out to be the leader of a band of sniveling 4-year-olds.

LiveLaughLove
3/7/2012, 12:07 PM
No, LLL,
I made a statement, you called me on it, I provided proof, you then announced that you didn't like my proof.
I'm not required to continually go back the well until I find something that you like. You want to disagree, be my guest, but I gave you an example within 7 minutes of your challenge. That, alone, should indicate how plentiful the examples are.
Have a nice life.

Ah, but you provided no such proof and you know it. Your standard was "explicitly for non-belief" (your exact words). You were trying to set up a moral equivalency argument. The "they all do it" thing. I called BS, and you give me a revenge killing as your proof.

Revenge killings are as common as dirt by religious and non-religious folks. Sure you can find those easily. You can't find Christians today killing people "explicitly for non-belief" (your exact words). One or two may exist, but I have yet to find them, and you have yet to produce them.

So in conclusion as is typical, your mouth overloaded your butt. Your used to not being questioned, and just spouting any inane thing you want. Try again.

LiveLaughLove
3/7/2012, 12:11 PM
Dear whiny Christians: Please show me in the New Testament where our Lord said you were entitled to have everyone agree with you and to have the civil authority make it easy and painless for you to be a Christian. Then stop whining and claiming to be a martyr every time somebody says you can't have everything you want. Today the Church commemorates some real martyrs, so read about them (http://satucket.com/lectionary/Perpetua.htm), count your blessings, and stop making Jesus out to be the leader of a band of sniveling 4-year-olds.

We are entitled to speak our minds. At least currently we are. That's getting narrowed by the day however.

I'm sure you wouldn't begrudge us our free speech rights, would you?

I'll keep exercising mine, thanks. If you see that as being whiny or 4 year old, I'll take that as a compliment coming from you.

TUSooner
3/7/2012, 01:00 PM
We are entitled to speak our minds. At least currently we are. That's getting narrowed by the day however.

I'm sure you wouldn't begrudge us our free speech rights, would you?

I'll keep exercising mine, thanks. If you see that as being whiny or 4 year old, I'll take that as a compliment coming from you.

Then you should feel very much complimented indeed.

Midtowner
3/7/2012, 01:03 PM
So I'm curious... what discrimination is currently harming Christians and their right to exercise their religion? Be specific. Is it that other non-Christians are being accommodated where some are saying Christians are being discriminated against? What specific activities do folks want Christians to be able to perform? How are other non-Christians being allowed to do the things the Christians aren't?

ictsooner7
3/7/2012, 01:19 PM
Always the double standard. Christianity is a second class citizen.

http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-beta-cons/292494/unc-greensboro-declares-christianity-not-religion-jay-schalin

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/02/bbc_chief_admits_anti-christian_bias.html

Along with WASP men, it's the last group it's ok to be openly bigoted toward.

Regurgitating talking points.

Midtowner
3/7/2012, 01:41 PM
Regurgitating talking points.

I understand those two cases. Here's the thing though--in many cases, being a recognized student organization means that you have access to student activity fee money, usually paid out by the student government. To be eligible for that money, you have to meet a set of neutral criteria.

For example, from the OU Student Code of Conduct:


The student has the right to form, join and participate in any student organization or group without
regard to race, color, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, genetic information, age (40 or older),
religion, disability, political beliefs or status as a veteran. http://www.ou.edu/home/eoo.html and
http://www.ou.edu/home/misc.html

Recognition as a student organization entitles the organization to funding and use of the university's facilities subsidized by the student activity fee. This is the case at OU and probably most other schools in the country. This is also not a new issue.

Also, OU's Student Body Gov't Constitution forbids organizations from denying a student an officer position because of religion, but what's wrong with that?

These complainers are asking for the entire student body to have to pay for religious activity which will be denied to any other student who wants to participate. How is that fair? How would you like to have a new sales tax be used to build a Seventh Day Adventist Church or a Mosque?

Now, if these orgs will simply open their membership up to non-religious people who won't join anyhow, they can get all the student activity money they qualify for. It's a bogus issue. Are atheists beating down the doors of the FCA?

KantoSooner
3/7/2012, 01:52 PM
Ah, but you provided no such proof and you know it. Your standard was "explicitly for non-belief" (your exact words). You were trying to set up a moral equivalency argument. The "they all do it" thing. I called BS, and you give me a revenge killing as your proof.

Revenge killings are as common as dirt by religious and non-religious folks. Sure you can find those easily. You can't find Christians today killing people "explicitly for non-belief" (your exact words). One or two may exist, but I have yet to find them, and you have yet to produce them.

So in conclusion as is typical, your mouth overloaded your butt. Your used to not being questioned, and just spouting any inane thing you want. Try again.

Didja read the article? Guess what, the dead had had nothing to do with the church bombing. The aggreived Christians made an assumption that they had been bombed by Muslims (a pretty damn good assumption if you ask me) and found a couple of handy Muslims to lynch.
Seems like a pretty cut and dried case of being murdered because you are not part of the right religious group.
And, as you say, it's a nasty fact of life that there's more than enough of this killing going on in the world.

One of my personal faves? Thai paratroopers (99% Buddhist) put the word out that Buddhist monks were going to have a 'self-defense' meeting in a town in one of the Southern, majority Muslim provinces. The predictable gaggle of Muslim community bully boys gathered and moved off into the night to attack the monks....right into a full-on military ambush. Machine guns and everything. It must've taken weeks for the paratroopers to chisel the smiles off their faces.
Or the Hindu nationalists in India burning Christian missionaries to death.
Or perhaps the most clear cut: the Serbians and Bosnians. People who are indistinguishable in ethnicity who slaughtered each other gayly when given the chance. Didn't even need a provocation.
And the common theme in all this mayhem? Three guesses and two don't count.

ictsooner7
3/7/2012, 02:37 PM
I understand those two cases. Here's the thing though--in many cases, being a recognized student organization means that you have access to student activity fee money, usually paid out by the student government. To be eligible for that money, you have to meet a set of neutral criteria.

For example, from the OU Student Code of Conduct:



Recognition as a student organization entitles the organization to funding and use of the university's facilities subsidized by the student activity fee. This is the case at OU and probably most other schools in the country. This is also not a new issue.

Also, OU's Student Body Gov't Constitution forbids organizations from denying a student an officer position because of religion, but what's wrong with that?

These complainers are asking for the entire student body to have to pay for religious activity which will be denied to any other student who wants to participate. How is that fair? How would you like to have a new sales tax be used to build a Seventh Day Adventist Church or a Mosque?

Now, if these orgs will simply open their membership up to non-religious people who won't join anyhow, they can get all the student activity money they qualify for. It's a bogus issue. Are atheists beating down the doors of the FCA?

You're missing my point here. The talking points being Regurgitated are - Always the double standard. Christianity is a second class citizen. Along with WASP men, it's the last group it's ok to be openly bigoted toward.




Originally Posted by LiveLaughLove
Always the double standard. Christianity is a second class citizen.

http://www.nationalreview.com/phi-be...on-jay-schalin

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/...tian_bias.html

Along with WASP men, it's the last group it's ok to be openly bigoted toward.

Of course he has rightwing websites to backup his claim. I'm a christain white male over 50, I'm not being openly bigioted against.


As for what you're saying about the articles, I agree with you.

jkjsooner
3/8/2012, 12:33 PM
We are entitled to speak our minds. At least currently we are. That's getting narrowed by the day however.

I'm sure you wouldn't begrudge us our free speech rights, would you?

I'll keep exercising mine, thanks. If you see that as being whiny or 4 year old, I'll take that as a compliment coming from you.

I'm confused. Please explain to me the connection between TUSooner stating that some Christians are whiny and the first amendment right to freedom of speech. Is TUSooner acting on behalf of the government and is he denying your right to speak, or is he just calling you whiny?

Does TUSooner have a first amendment right to call you whiny?

Fraggle145
3/8/2012, 01:10 PM
it doesn't really work that way, not in the classroom anyway

They didnt grow up in Owasso so they dont understand... Even if you can opt out you cant opt out.