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Midtowner
1/30/2012, 02:41 PM
State Representative Corey Holland, Marlow (R), has proposed HB 2598. This bill would do away with both multiyear contracts and tenure for college faculty and administration (I'm not sure whether football coaches count as faculty, but they probably do). The effect of this bill would be to quickly destroy any chance for the state of Oklahoma to attract or keep quality faculty at our universities... and does anyone think Stoops (or even Castiglione) would tolerate 1 year contract maximums? Nope. They'd be gone.

Again, our legislature is proposing something which is beyond stupid. This likely dies in committee, but to even be dumb enough to propose something like this... wow.

SoonerPride
1/30/2012, 02:50 PM
Double face palm.

Hopefully Boren and Hargis squash this in about 5 seconds.

Both state universities would be decimated by this legislation.

badger
1/30/2012, 02:53 PM
Double face palm.

Hopefully Boren and Hargis squash this in about 5 seconds.

Both state universities would be decimated by this legislation.

Don't worry about higher ed. Boren and Hargis have a very unified stance when it comes to dealing with the legislature.

The boneheaded bills are always talked about before session starts in the media... and then they are quickly discarded when session starts.

As for faculty and professors in general, it's a job and there are worse places to work than the state of Oklahoma.

StoopTroup
1/30/2012, 02:54 PM
Best way to handle this is to ask him if those things you are concerned about would or could happen.

http://www.okhouse.gov/District.aspx?District=51

Follow the bill...

http://www.okhouse.gov/District.aspx?District=51


Higher education; stating legislative intent that certain boards of regents adopt certain employment policies and procedures; effective date.

StoopTroup
1/30/2012, 02:55 PM
HB2599
Higher education; stating legislative intent that certain boards of regents adopt a system of post-tenure faculty evaluation and review; effective date.

StoopTroup
1/30/2012, 02:56 PM
Holland has been busy...

HB2600








School elections; changing election dates for members of board of education; effective date; emergency.

Midtowner
1/30/2012, 02:57 PM
Still.. these are the idiots the people keep electing to office. I know we want to keep electing Republicans, but why on Earth do these people get elected? No one better will run?

I mean I could write a Republican piece of campaign literature in my sleep. You say you want to cut taxes, make abortion illegal, ensure academic freedom so that teachers won't be punished for teaching intelligent design, do "tort reform" (whatever that may be), and be in favor of "small government," and you get elected.

Oh, and no matter what your actual profession is, you've got to bill yourself as a "small businessman."

StoopTroup
1/30/2012, 02:58 PM
HB2597 LOL

Amusements and sports; eliminating lottery funding for higher education and career and technology education; effective date.

Midtowner
1/30/2012, 02:59 PM
http://www.okhouse.gov/Members/Pictures/Corey-Holland2x175.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NDdXiTwXFas/TS0-SC_YrBI/AAAAAAAAAfc/U0bv9Tu9Rv0/s400/sloth_goonies-431x300.jpg

The resemblance..

StoopTroup
1/30/2012, 03:01 PM
I know we want to keep electing Republicans, but why on Earth do these people get elected? No one better will run?


I'd re-access your position on electing only Republicans. Gridlock and Non-Partisan Bills seem to have been a good way to get representation to everyone with out our Country being completely liberal or Conservative. It's called moderation.

Midtowner
1/30/2012, 03:05 PM
I'd re-access your position on electing only Republicans. Gridlock and Non-Partisan Bills seem to have been a good way to get representation to everyone with out our Country being completely liberal or Conservative. It's called moderation.

Moderation is fine. I'm all for it. In fact, I thought the best the state gov't ever worked was with one house Democrat and one Republican. Trouble is, the Republicans have been very disciplined and on-message for about 20 years. Democrats during that time were just... whatever they were. Their message got so watered down that Okie Dems are kind of like Republican-Lite. We may have an outspoken OKC or Tulsa liberal in either body from time to time, but that doesn't really happen that often and they tend to retire quickly (Andrew Rice).

The Republican brand is strong here. It'll take many years to undo that. Oklahoma tends to be a state which gravitates towards a name brand. We were a Democrat state for 90-something years. It could be another 70 years or so of Republican control before there's a shift in the other direction. Our voters aren't thinking people who carefully weight their options and choose the person most likely to do the least damage. Our voters are loyal and go with the name-brand they think should win.

okie52
1/30/2012, 03:13 PM
It is really a conservative brand more than a party brand...it just takes states a while to recognize when their party has shifted. There are still more registered dems in OK than repubs (although that may change soon).

okie52
1/30/2012, 03:21 PM
State Representative Corey Holland, Marlow (R), has proposed HB 2598. This bill would do away with both multiyear contracts and tenure for college faculty and administration (I'm not sure whether football coaches count as faculty, but they probably do). The effect of this bill would be to quickly destroy any chance for the state of Oklahoma to attract or keep quality faculty at our universities... and does anyone think Stoops (or even Castiglione) would tolerate 1 year contract maximums? Nope. They'd be gone.

Again, our legislature is proposing something which is beyond stupid. This likely dies in committee, but to even be dumb enough to propose something like this... wow.

Tenure.....are these lifetime tenures?

Should professors not be subject to review? Multiyear contracts would probably be good to keep but even then review should be part of the process.

StoopTroup
1/30/2012, 03:22 PM
Tulsa Liberal?

This Town is so republican that I'm surprized they didn't call it the Republican Capital of the World after the oil business moved to Houston and Tulsa had to get rid of their old motto, "Oil Capital of the World".....LMAO

Midtowner
1/30/2012, 03:25 PM
I don't believe the Oklahoma Democrats really ever had much of a brand. A few of 'em favored this, a few that. If you run as a Republican in Oklahoma, absent a couple standouts, you can count on the same aforementioned Republican core values as part of their message.

Here's a typical interchangable Oklahoma Republican campaign commercial:

UP2WdquUqAA

Christian values, small businessman, etc. I know Jon, and would vote for him if he was in my district because he's really one of the more brilliant folks I know. Top of his class at OCU Law (ad doesn't mention he's a lawyer, does it?). The thing is though that if you just repeat the same lines over and over.. Christian values, family values, etc., then people will vote for you because of the strong Republican brand.

Midtowner
1/30/2012, 03:27 PM
Tenure.....are these lifetime tenures?

Should professors not be subject to review? Multiyear contracts would probably be good to keep but even then review should be part of the process.

Do you think we're going to hold on to our top researchers when they can get unlimited tenure in 49 states?

I think most tenure contracts have a mandatory retirement age though.

Midtowner
1/30/2012, 03:28 PM
Here's another one:

_aG-GLAiGdk&

StoopTroup
1/30/2012, 03:34 PM
Tenure.....are these lifetime tenures?

Should professors not be subject to review? Multiyear contracts would probably be good to keep but even then review should be part of the process.

I think the idea to make these changes is that "Tenure" makes the job of a Prof permanent.

Now....if you don't think that the Profs at these Schools don't go around reviewing each other....I think you might not have ever known anyone that was a Prof. They are required to meet certain criteria each year. Also....if they suddenly do something really wrong....they can be suspended or fired. They just can't be fired for no other reason than they have been there to long or you don't like them. I really don't think Profs suddenly wake up stupid....they just wake up on the other side of an issue and then they spend time and energy worrying about being entrapped because some new guy wants to get rid of them and hire his Nephew and 3 other folks who will work for less and be loyal to him.

Multi Year contracts and Tenure are good things. Change is good too but doing it because you can isn't the best thing either. You want to get rid of a Prof with Tenure? You are going to have to have just cause and work for it.

I think it's just an attempt to make it easier to fire folks that might make you uncomfortable or not agree with you.

badger
1/30/2012, 03:35 PM
Tulsa Liberal?

This Town is so republican that I'm surprized they didn't call it the Republican Capital of the World after the oil business moved to Houston and Tulsa had to get rid of their old motto, "Oil Capital of the World".....LMAO

Tulsa is home to some of the bluest areas of this red state, mind you.


Still.. these are the idiots the people keep electing to office. I know we want to keep electing Republicans, but why on Earth do these people get elected? No one better will run?

No worries -- there are term limits in Oklahoma. But yes, without them, we'd probably continue electing the incumbent into eternity... which can be said for any state, any party, any level of government.


Holland has been busy...

There are lots of state reps and senators that will file tons of bills only to have most of it never leave committee. When seeing what they file, check also to see how much of their crap has actually been noticed by anyone other than the clerk accepting the filings :D

okie52
1/30/2012, 03:51 PM
I don't believe the Oklahoma Democrats really ever had much of a brand. A few of 'em favored this, a few that. If you run as a Republican in Oklahoma, absent a couple standouts, you can count on the same aforementioned Republican core values as part of their message.

Here's a typical interchangable Oklahoma Republican campaign commercial:

UP2WdquUqAA

Christian values, small businessman, etc. I know Jon, and would vote for him if he was in my district because he's really one of the more brilliant folks I know. Top of his class at OCU Law (ad doesn't mention he's a lawyer, does it?). The thing is though that if you just repeat the same lines over and over.. Christian values, family values, etc., then people will vote for you because of the strong Republican brand.

Repubs are pushing the conservative brand. I remember Fallin's embarrassing ad when she 1st ran for US rep....something to the effect of "Faith, Family, Freedom". Dems have a harder time pushing conservative brand because of the national candidates they are often forced to embrace. Yet we did have a "Henry" and another may appear again.

okie52
1/30/2012, 03:56 PM
I think the idea to make these changes is that "Tenure" makes the job of a Prof permanent.

Now....if you don't think that the Profs at these Schools don't go around reviewing each other....I think you might not have ever known anyone that was a Prof. They are required to meet certain criteria each year. Also....if they suddenly do something really wrong....they can be suspended or fired. They just can't be fired for no other reason than they have been there to long or you don't like them. I really don't think Profs suddenly wake up stupid....they just wake up on the other side of an issue and then they spend time and energy worrying about being entrapped because some new guy wants to get rid of them and hire his Nephew and 3 other folks who will work for less and be loyal to him.

Multi Year contracts and Tenure are good things. Change is good too but doing it because you can isn't the best thing either. You want to get rid of a Prof with Tenure? You are going to have to have just cause and work for it.

I think it's just an attempt to make it easier to fire folks that might make you uncomfortable or not agree with you.

I knew some profs when I was at OU but none really since that time. I had profs that stayed current on their given subjects and others that didn't.

These profs might be fired for some type of conduct external to teaching but not really for the performanceor content of their teaching.

I am not saying get rid of tenured professors or even the process but it is in the vacuum of academia. Private sector wise there are very few places where you aren't at risk to lose your job.

badger
1/30/2012, 04:13 PM
Repubs are pushing the conservative brand. I remember Fallin's embarrassing ad when she 1st ran for US rep....something to the effect of "Faith, Family, Freedom". Dems have a harder time pushing conservative brand because of the national candidates they are often forced to embrace. Yet we did have a "Henry" and another may appear again.

I really think Jari Askins would have fared better if there wasn't such an anti-Dem sentiment going around nationwide in 2010. I voted for her, and I had only voted for a Democrat once before in my life (full disclosure --- I have been eligible to vote for about 10 years hehe)

SoonerTerry
1/30/2012, 04:25 PM
I am not saying get rid of tenured professors or even the process but it is in the vacuum of academia. Private sector wise there are very few places where you aren't at risk to lose your job.

^This

If there is no chance of a person loosing a job, what is the incentive to push yourself, become better at what you do. I am in a field where I am one of only 1800 or so qualified people in the world to do my job, and if I started mailing it in it wouldn't be long before I was in jeopardy of loosing my job.

okie52
1/30/2012, 04:28 PM
I really think Jari Askins would have fared better if there wasn't such an anti-Dem sentiment going around nationwide in 2010. I voted for her, and I had only voted for a Democrat once before in my life (full disclosure --- I have been eligible to vote for about 10 years hehe)

Jari Askins is a committed public servant. I didn't vote for her over a couple of issues but I have always respected her commitment and usually her judgement. I had hoped Fallin would employ her services and for a while I thought she might...

On that topic I think I saw where Andrew Rice was leaving the state.

badger
1/30/2012, 04:41 PM
On that topic I think I saw where Andrew Rice was leaving the state.

His wife got a job elsewhere, yeah. There goes another Democrat in the state Senate :P

okie52
1/30/2012, 04:45 PM
His wife got a job elsewhere, yeah. There goes another Democrat in the state Senate :P

I liked Brad Carson too but he seems to have dropped out of politics....I think he is working for Kaiser in Tulsa.

Midtowner
1/30/2012, 04:50 PM
^This

If there is no chance of a person loosing a job, what is the incentive to push yourself, become better at what you do. I am in a field where I am one of only 1800 or so qualified people in the world to do my job, and if I started mailing it in it wouldn't be long before I was in jeopardy of loosing my job.

Higher ed doesn't really compare well to for-profit business. There is still opportunity for advancement after tenure, and we're talking about mostly very driven people. The weeding out of bad characters really takes place in them obtaining tenure in the first place. It's no easy task. Once you're hired tenure track, the school generally underpays you and overworks you and requires that you publish this or research that, and most often, at the end of that three-year period or whatever, they tell you thanks but no thanks, PhDs in your field are a dime-a-dozen.
The folks who get tenure have to show that they're a value to the institution and that the institution should retain them.

And really, it's not even about that. The fact of the matter is that tenure exists in 49 other states. Try recruiting a quality faculty by promising no tenure. See how well that works.

Midtowner
1/30/2012, 04:51 PM
I liked Brad Carson too but he seems to have dropped out of politics....I think he is working for Kaiser in Tulsa.

I believe he was just confirmed as the top lawyer for the U.S. Army.

badger
1/30/2012, 04:55 PM
Higher ed doesn't really compare well to for-profit business. There is still opportunity for advancement after tenure, and we're talking about mostly very driven people. The weeding out of bad characters really takes place in them obtaining tenure in the first place. It's no easy task. Once you're hired tenure track, the school generally underpays you and overworks you and requires that you publish this or research that, and most often, at the end of that three-year period or whatever, they tell you thanks but no thanks, PhDs in your field are a dime-a-dozen.
The folks who get tenure have to show that they're a value to the institution and that the institution should retain them.

And really, it's not even about that. The fact of the matter is that tenure exists in 49 other states. Try recruiting a quality faculty by promising no tenure. See how well that works.

Tenure was apparently the reason why the professor went berserko in Alabama either last year or the year before. She reportedly was denied tenure and the shock to the system was... huge.

okie52
1/30/2012, 05:02 PM
I believe he was just confirmed as the top lawyer for the U.S. Army.

Good for him.

Midtowner
1/30/2012, 05:07 PM
Tenure was apparently the reason why the professor went berserko in Alabama either last year or the year before. She reportedly was denied tenure and the shock to the system was... huge.

Like I said, it's an incentive the universities are able to use to keep a lot of PhDs working for them on the cheap. Occasionally, they'll use it to retain the better candidates and that's when we all win.

I'd say the Alabama prof is a fine example of someone who was probably rightfully denied tenure due to her being a whackadoo.

jkjsooner
1/30/2012, 05:18 PM
^This

If there is no chance of a person loosing a job, what is the incentive to push yourself, become better at what you do. I am in a field where I am one of only 1800 or so qualified people in the world to do my job, and if I started mailing it in it wouldn't be long before I was in jeopardy of loosing my job.

Just to add a point, by "being better at what you do" has everything to do with research and almost nothing to do with teaching.

Midtowner
1/30/2012, 05:20 PM
Just to add a point, by "being better at what you do" has everything to do with research and almost nothing to do with teaching.

That has a lot to do with the fact that the states have backed off so much on funding that the universities depend on research grants to fund their programs. The way to fix that is better funding.. or if you're a student, attending the honors college is a good option.

Ike
1/31/2012, 03:33 PM
I'd just add 1 thing to this: Many research grants are for an institutions participation on large, multi-year, multi-university collaborative projects (Like say, the LHC, which has researchers from both OU and OSU). If I'm a grant reviewer for the NSF or the DOE (both of whom issue grants for that particular project), my likelihood of looking favorably upon OU and OSU for one of those grants will go down precipitously. Every year, there may be one or more new professors that will need to get up to speed on what is going with that experiment, or who may have entirely different priorities. Not to mention the grad students (who really do most of the work) who could be left twisting in the wind as they wonder every single year if they will have the same advisor next year. Hell no I wouldn't want to fund an institution for one of those projects. Short, sweet, tabletop experiments and projects that can go from grant proposal to published paper within a year is all I would ever consider funding. Too much risk of wasting money funding anything larger than that at an institution that only offers 1 year contracts.

pphilfran
1/31/2012, 03:42 PM
Do you think we're going to hold on to our top researchers when they can get unlimited tenure in 49 states?

I think most tenure contracts have a mandatory retirement age though.

I don't know jack chit about the subject...could it be that the other 49 states are the ones mucking up things?

Ike
1/31/2012, 04:15 PM
Looks like this guy also wants to have the legislature determine tuition and fees

HB2593
Higher education; providing for establishment of certain tuition and fee amounts by the Oklahoma Legislature; effective dates.

jkjsooner
1/31/2012, 05:13 PM
I don't know jack chit about the subject...could it be that the other 49 states are the ones mucking up things?

Does it really matter who is mucking it up? If the other 49 are giving tenure then Oklahoma darn well better do it or face dropping school rankings and prestige.

47straight
1/31/2012, 05:53 PM
I don't know jack chit about the subject...could it be that the other 49 states are the ones mucking up things?

Yes, but you don't want to be the first to drop it. Tenure in its present form probably could stand to be tossed out. But you don't want to be the first!

pphilfran
1/31/2012, 05:55 PM
Does it really matter who is mucking it up? If the other 49 are giving tenure then Oklahoma darn well better do it or face dropping school rankings and prestige.

I understand that part...not saying OK should dump tenure...only that if not having tenure is good then the other states would keep OK from moving into the better overall system....

Like I said I don't know chit about the subject...just a question...

okie52
1/31/2012, 05:56 PM
Kind of like the contracts that are given to college coaches...they may be outrageously overpaid but you better keep doing if you want to get and keep the good ones.

pphilfran
1/31/2012, 05:58 PM
Ok...my first attempt failed miserably...

If all 50 states and every university stopped tenure...would it be a benefit?

Ike
2/1/2012, 12:23 PM
It *might* be a benefit if the only function of the university is teaching.

I can see no upsides to research in dropping tenure. The only upside to dropping tenure at all is to make it easier to get rid of poor performing professors. Generally, that function is incorporated into the tenure review process itself. If you don't work your *** off, you aren't going to get it. The benefits of tenure to the general public are that tenured professors are essentially free to research whatever strikes their fancy. Controversial subjects are not off limits. They won't be putting their job at risk by accurately reporting their findings on a controversial matter (provided of course that they perform their research within the bounds of academic integrity). And that's a good thing.

As a grad student and postdoc working on a 500+ member collaboration, it was extremely rare to find the "lazy tenured professor". The tenured profs worked just as hard as anyone else, if not more so, and were just as dedicated as anyone else, if not more so. That's why they got tenure in the first place.

pphilfran
2/1/2012, 02:58 PM
Thanks, Ike...

soonercoop1
2/2/2012, 06:39 PM
Really surprised they haven't manned-up and taken back the ability to raise tuition from the regents...that was really chicken**** when they did that...not sure how long ago now...

cantwait48
2/3/2012, 12:26 PM
there are some really worthless tenured professors out there that I'm sure Universities would love to get rid of because they are dead weight. Teaching a little but not trying to bring in research money. Having said that this is becoming less and less of a problem because becoming a tenure track professor and actually getting tenure after getting the job is becoming so competitive. Basically tenure to me has become a reward for showing that you can establish your own research program and maintain it and having the security that when a new Dean is hired he is not going to come in and decide to replace everyone with someone else. I may just be lazy but I cannot imagine anyone wanting to be a research faculty at a University in this day and age, all you do is work with no fun and if you clear one hurdle there is a bigger one up ahead. The kind of people that are becoming faculty now a days are not going to quit working just because they have tenure, they did not have to do it in the first place, they could have went into another much more rewarding field but this is what they like to do so they are doing it.