PDA

View Full Version : The Wisconsin Recall Thread, Part 2



hawaii 5-0
1/17/2012, 11:15 PM
Just an update on what's happening........

Today the Recall Petitions were due. Over a million signatures were turned in. K500+ were needed.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/recall18-8g3r7ui-137489833.html


"The sheer number of signatures being filed against Walker - nearly as many as the total votes cast for the governor in November 2010 and almost twice as many as those needed to trigger a recall election - ensure the election will be held."


4 other Wisconsin legislators will also face recall elections as well as the Lt. Governor.


Looks like Wisconsin wants their State back.


5-0

hawaii 5-0
1/18/2012, 01:58 AM
No telling when this will be all played out, with the signature verification, the lawsuits, appeals, primary selection of candidates and finally the new elections.

My guess it'll be next Fall.

5-0

okie52
1/18/2012, 02:02 AM
Just an update on what's happening........

Today the Recall Petitions were due. Over a million signatures were turned in. K500+ were needed.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/recall18-8g3r7ui-137489833.html


"The sheer number of signatures being filed against Walker - nearly as many as the total votes cast for the governor in November 2010 and almost twice as many as those needed to trigger a recall election - ensure the election will be held."


4 other Wisconsin legislators will also face recall elections as well as the Lt. Governor.


Looks like Wisconsin wants their State back.


5-0

Sounds like they deserve what they get.

sappstuf
1/18/2012, 07:48 AM
Yes, that Wisconsin is a shining beacon of freedom to the world...



'Mickey Mouse’ OK for Walker recall

Signatures of names like Mickey Mouse and Adolf Hitler are being considered valid on recall petitions of Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker as long as they are properly dated, a government board indicated Tuesday.

“We will flag them, but we will not strike them without challenge,” said board elections specialist David Buerger, when asked whether Mickey Mouse’s signature could count. He added that in previous petitions, Hitler’s name was only struck because the address was in Germany, not due to the name itself.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70429.html#ixzz1joVFPMsL

hawaii 5-0
1/18/2012, 10:13 AM
Yes, that Wisconsin is a shining beacon of freedom to the world...




Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70429.html#ixzz1joVFPMsL



Now it's up to Walker to prove that Mickey Mouse and Hitler don't live in Wisconsin.

There's gotta be at least 500,000 Hitlers in Milwaukee alone.

5-0

TheHumanAlphabet
1/18/2012, 10:49 AM
Looks like the unions are crying for "momma" and want to steal the election... What a disservice to Wisky and the costs! Why not wait to have your chance at the next official go 'round?

hawaii 5-0
1/18/2012, 10:56 AM
While the petitions were being delivered Walker wasn't even in the State. He was in NYC at a $2,500 per plate fundraiser held by the ex-head of AIG. Remember them? They stole billions of taypayer's money before going belly up.


The Wisky Recall petitioners gathered almost 2 million signatures in just 60 days in the middle of Wisconsin Winter. No small task.

5-0

TheHumanAlphabet
1/18/2012, 11:01 AM
Just go to a Packer game, not a problem picking up lots of people...

badger
1/18/2012, 01:35 PM
Just go to a Packer game, not a problem picking up lots of people...

Or a casino. Wisconsin is loaded with Indian reservations and there's a casino on every one I think.

Or a Badger game. UW is in Madison and the entire campus is crazy levels of liberal.

Despite the high sig count, I do not expect Gov. Walker to be recalled unless something major happens between now and the election.

TheHumanAlphabet
1/18/2012, 01:47 PM
Actually, the things Walker did are working and working well. Cities have gone down, budgeting is much easier for cities and school boards. I think local taxes may also fall. Recent story in one of Wisconsin papers even praised Walker's efforts as working. Don't know what will happen with all the outside money flowing in, but it isn't as rosey for the anti's as 5-0 would have people think.

badger
1/18/2012, 02:17 PM
Actually, the things Walker did are working and working well. Cities have gone down, budgeting is much easier for cities and school boards. I think local taxes may also fall. Recent story in one of Wisconsin papers even praised Walker's efforts as working. Don't know what will happen with all the outside money flowing in, but it isn't as rosey for the anti's as 5-0 would have people think.

My grandparents who have lived up there their entire lives told me the same thing last month, that suddenly they don't need to go through the union-chosen healthcare provider, but get the exact same coverage from a company like United Healthcare at a fraction of the cost to the taxpayers.

Sounds like there was lots of kickback shenanigans going on with union contracts, and it unfortunately took a budget crisis to uncover it.

I do think that Walker was overly aggressive in pushing his agenda, but part of the outcomes seems to have benefited the state.

ictsooner7
1/18/2012, 02:31 PM
Looks like the unions are crying for "momma" and want to steal the election... What a disservice to Wisky and the costs! Why not wait to have your chance at the next official go 'round?

Just like acorn stole it for Obama? It hasn't even happened yet and you are already crying like a little girl. Why is it when you people are voted out, you cry foul? Why didn't you people follow your advise in California with Grey Davis? It is democracy at work, if it was a dem being recalled you'd be cheering.

okie52
1/18/2012, 02:56 PM
Just like acorn stole it for Obama? It hasn't even happened yet and you are already crying like a little girl. Why is it when you people are voted out, you cry foul? Why didn't you people follow your advise in California with Grey Davis? It is democracy at work, if it was a dem being recalled you'd be cheering.

No dems crying foul over elections? Gore/W ring any bells?

badger
1/18/2012, 03:13 PM
No dems crying foul over elections? Gore/W ring any bells?

Yeah, fouls are cried often in elections, or state questions, or petitions, or anything else involving anything as heated as politics.

Just have to have faith sometimes that the process will be carried out fairly and that the will of voters will be done. Simply whining before/during/after the fact does no good.

I have no doubt that Wisconsin will have a recall election, even if it is discovered that some people signed petitions 50 times each or signed fakes names with fake addresses. However, without a major event, Gov. Walker will remain Gov. Walker after the recall election, IMHO. Why? A few reasons:

1- Who is the alternative.
When Gray Davis was up for recall, there were two strong candidates --- Arnold and Lt. Gov. Cruz Busta... whatever his name was. There were also tons of name candidates out there that people had heard of, including the late Gary Coleman and someone named Michael Jackson who was not THE Michael Jackson. If people are going to feel strongly enough to vote out the sitting governor, they also have to feel strongly about who his replacement is. Right now, no major candidate has emerged.

2- People like to vote for the status quo unless they have a huge reason not to.
In California, the situation was apparently getting too frustration, to the point of people not being able to afford to live, even without the national recession we're currently camped in. In Wisconsin, an overzealous governor pushed his agenda a little bit too far. That alone, IMHO, will not cause a majority of voters to oust a governor. It has to personally impact a voter before they will be moved away from status quo... taxes unaffordably high, unemployed for far too long, blackouts, roads that impassable, police/fire not being available in emergencies, etc.

3- Worry about shenanigans.
You will hardly ever find someone who is motivated enough to vote in state elections who does not have some level of state pride. That said, if Wisconsin voters think that they are being pushed too much by non-Wisconsin people (read: unions bombarding them when endless ads), they will absolutely vote against the recall. Gov. Walker and his supporters absolutely must hammer this point home, or at least create doubt in voter's minds --- get reports of recall petitions being supported by groups based elsewhere, tell voters where the money for ad campaigns is coming from if it's outside of wisconsin --- to the point that they are angry.

I am not saying Gov. Walker will not be recalled. I am saying that at this point in time, the recall petitioners have not made their case to the point that they need to in order to get a majority of voters to recall Walker.

okie52
1/18/2012, 03:23 PM
Yeah, fouls are cried often in elections, or state questions, or petitions, or anything else involving anything as heated as politics.

Just have to have faith sometimes that the process will be carried out fairly and that the will of voters will be done. Simply whining before/during/after the fact does no good.

I have no doubt that Wisconsin will have a recall election, even if it is discovered that some people signed petitions 50 times each or signed fakes names with fake addresses. However, without a major event, Gov. Walker will remain Gov. Walker after the recall election, IMHO. Why? A few reasons:

1- Who is the alternative.
When Gray Davis was up for recall, there were two strong candidates --- Arnold and Lt. Gov. Cruz Busta... whatever his name was. There were also tons of name candidates out there that people had heard of, including the late Gary Coleman and someone named Michael Jackson who was not THE Michael Jackson. If people are going to feel strongly enough to vote out the sitting governor, they also have to feel strongly about who his replacement is. Right now, no major candidate has emerged.

2- People like to vote for the status quo unless they have a huge reason not to.
In California, the situation was apparently getting too frustration, to the point of people not being able to afford to live, even without the national recession we're currently camped in. In Wisconsin, an overzealous governor pushed his agenda a little bit too far. That alone, IMHO, will not cause a majority of voters to oust a governor. It has to personally impact a voter before they will be moved away from status quo... taxes unaffordably high, unemployed for far too long, blackouts, roads that impassable, police/fire not being available in emergencies, etc.

3- Worry about shenanigans.
You will hardly ever find someone who is motivated enough to vote in state elections who does not have some level of state pride. That said, if Wisconsin voters think that they are being pushed too much by non-Wisconsin people (read: unions bombarding them when endless ads), they will absolutely vote against the recall. Gov. Walker and his supporters absolutely must hammer this point home, or at least create doubt in voter's minds --- get reports of recall petitions being supported by groups based elsewhere, tell voters where the money for ad campaigns is coming from if it's outside of wisconsin --- to the point that they are angry.

I am not saying Gov. Walker will not be recalled. I am saying that at this point in time, the recall petitioners have not made their case to the point that they need to in order to get a majority of voters to recall Walker.

Really haven't followed the recalls all that closely. I certainly don't have a dog in this fight other than I don't think government unions are a right. It may be ultimately the best thing and I have seen some information provided that shows some advantages to government unions. But when they start declaring it as a right they lose me. Now private sector wise I do feel it is a right...at least to collectively bargain should a group choose to do so.

badger
1/18/2012, 03:26 PM
My only dog in this fight is that Wisconsin is my birth state and I have lots of family and friends up there, so I have a soft spot for it. It was my Wisconsin upbringing that makes me a more moderate Republican compared to a lot of Republicans I've seen in Oklahoma.

okie52
1/18/2012, 03:53 PM
I do watch the "70's" show.

TheHumanAlphabet
1/18/2012, 04:26 PM
I am watching this election somewhat as I am an unrepresented tax payer of Oneida county, Wisconsin. Meaning, my family owns lake front property and we get the shaft because they know only "non-state" people can afford lake front property and we can't vote... Ha! Those rich sombitches! ;)

KABOOKIE
1/18/2012, 04:31 PM
The Wisky Recall petitioners gathered almost 2 million signatures in just 60 days in the middle of Wisconsin Winter. No small task.

5-0

An impossible task if you ask me. Smells of fraud.

hawaii 5-0
1/18/2012, 11:43 PM
Remember the 14 Senate members that ran away to Chicago to avoid a vote to end collective bargaining for public employees?

Well, all 14 are still serving and prepresenting the people who elected them.

Meanwhile 2 of Walker's rubber stamp Republicans have been tossed on their ears and now 4 more are being recalled.

Some kind of fraud going on, that's for sure.

5-0

hawaii 5-0
1/18/2012, 11:49 PM
An impossible task if you ask me. Smells of fraud.


Gosh ! Could it possibly be some people overstepped their responsibilities to their constituents and are now paying the price for their misdeeds?

I'm sure some of the signatures will be tossed. There will still be more than enough to override any challenges to their authenticity.

Now it's up to the lawyers for awhile. Then we'll see what the people in Wisconsin want to do with their State.

5-0

SoonerNate
1/19/2012, 02:04 AM
These recall people should be shot. Do you know how much money this recall election is costing that state? And for what? All because they disagree with someone legitimately elected by the people.

Union folks = Sore losers.

SicEmBaylor
1/19/2012, 02:55 AM
Wisconsin is a yankee state; therefore, I do not give a flying rat's pancreas.

badger
1/19/2012, 09:57 AM
Wisconsin is a yankee state; therefore, I do not give a flying rat's pancreas.

Nah, it's a rust belt state and thus, one that matters in presidential elections but matters little in other matters as its population moves to the south seeking jobs and fewer months of freezing snowy weather.

Bourbon St Sooner
1/19/2012, 01:12 PM
Let me know when Wisconsin is getting recalled from the Union. I'll vote for that.

KABOOKIE
1/19/2012, 03:50 PM
Remember the 14 Senate members that ran away to Chicago to avoid a vote to end collective bargaining for public employees?

Well, all 14 are still serving and prepresenting the people who elected them.

Meanwhile 2 of Walker's rubber stamp Republicans have been tossed on their ears and now 4 more are being recalled.

Some kind of fraud going on, that's for sure.

5-0

Woopee ****ing doo. Dems and big unions are just as stupid and corrupt as the repubs and big business you dillweeds want ousted via grass roots from the minority percentage of the voters. Fraud and a bunch a sore ****ing losers is all it is. Getting butt hurt because the union coffers and scams are drying up. Big unions are actually destroying the very cause they once fought for with their own greed. **** 'em.

badger
1/19/2012, 04:13 PM
Remember the 14 Senate members that ran away to Chicago to avoid a vote to end collective bargaining for public employees?

Well, all 14 are still serving and prepresenting the people who elected them.

Meanwhile 2 of Walker's rubber stamp Republicans have been tossed on their ears and now 4 more are being recalled.

Some kind of fraud going on, that's for sure.

5-0

It really was a victory for both sides, but not as much of a victory as either side wanted.

Republicans wanted to gain just one more Senate seat to get a quorum-proof majority, while Democrats wanted three more Senate seats to reclaim a simple majority.

Neither side got all of what they wanted, which was probably the best outcome that all of Wisconsin could hope for.

It was probably a big economic boost to Wisconsin to be the prettiest girl at the prom in this national agenda issue by the unions. They spent like $30 million on that recall effort (NOT including the current recall, just the Senate recall last year!) to get their message out to other states that were thinking of doing similar collective bargaining stuff that they wouldn't stand for it. The fact that Wisconsin got to be the center of attention, well, more money spent on them for this!

Alas, there is a much bigger fish to fry than Gov. Walker in 2012, and that's the national elections, not these little state elections. So, that's another reason I don't think this new recall effort will be successful. The unions need to focus on maintaining a majority in the real Senate (no offense to state Senates) and trying to get some control to Dems back in the House... and most importantly the power of veto with the president needs to be maintained, or there's gonna be a lot more rubber stamping than you saw in Wisky that will have a much larger impact on unions.

TitoMorelli
6/5/2012, 09:55 PM
Just an update on what's happening........

Today the Recall Petitions were due. Over a million signatures were turned in. K500+ were needed.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/recall18-8g3r7ui-137489833.html


"The sheer number of signatures being filed against Walker - nearly as many as the total votes cast for the governor in November 2010 and almost twice as many as those needed to trigger a recall election - ensure the election will be held."


4 other Wisconsin legislators will also face recall elections as well as the Lt. Governor.


Looks like Wisconsin wants their State back.


5-0


Should be getting to be close to suppertime in Hawaii---

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c88/iheartschlitz/EatingCrow.jpg

olevetonahill
6/5/2012, 09:57 PM
No telling when this will be all played out, with the signature verification, the lawsuits, appeals, primary selection of candidates and finally the new elections.

My guess it'll be next Fall.

5-0

Seems you were wrong on all points

soonercruiser
6/5/2012, 10:01 PM
Wisconsin wins freedom from the Pubic Employee Unions!
:smiley_simmons:

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/5/2012, 10:16 PM
Wisconsin wins freedom from the Pubic Employee Unions!
:smiley_simmons:If we can only rid ourselves of the bums in nov....

sappstuf
6/5/2012, 10:40 PM
Gosh ! Could it possibly be some people overstepped their responsibilities to their constituents and are now paying the price for their misdeeds?

I'm sure some of the signatures will be tossed. There will still be more than enough to override any challenges to their authenticity.

Now it's up to the lawyers for awhile. Then we'll see what the people in Wisconsin want to do with their State.

5-0

The Dems wanted to take control of the Senate. Fail.
The Dems wanted to recall the judge. Fail.
The Dems wanted to recall the governor. Fail

And spent millions doing it...

That is an all-time trifecta of failure.

sappstuf
6/5/2012, 10:45 PM
Weeping Barrett supporter on CNN: "Democracy died tonight."

http://seattlest.com/attachments/seattle_dan/cartman_scott.jpg

KABOOKIE
6/5/2012, 11:18 PM
Imagine that. The recall went down just like the original vote. What's next cry babies? Another recall? Boo ****ing hoo. In the words of your dear king, "Your side lost. Get over it."

SicEmBaylor
6/5/2012, 11:25 PM
http://seattlest.com/attachments/seattle_dan/cartman_scott.jpg
lol, funny, someone posted a video clip of that guy on CNN and that exact Cartman clip was my response. :D

Sooner98
6/5/2012, 11:49 PM
Bump

Sooner98
6/5/2012, 11:53 PM
Republicans: Saving the United States of America from the Democratic Party since 1861.

SicEmBaylor
6/6/2012, 12:06 AM
Republicans: Saving the United States of America from the Democratic Party since 1861.
**** you.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/6/2012, 12:22 AM
Republicans: Saving the United States of America from the Democratic Party since 1861.But the commies never quit.

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 12:25 AM
I love the spin coming from the White House..


While tonight’s outcome was not what we had hoped for – no one can dispute the strong message sent to Governor Walker.

There was a strong message sent..

125,000 more people(and counting) voted for Walker than they did previously because he stood up to money stealing unions.

Wait. That isn't what they meant??

GrapevineSooner
6/6/2012, 12:46 AM
That was $60 million well spent by the unions.

SCOUT
6/6/2012, 12:53 AM
I love the spin coming from the White House..

There was a strong message sent..

125,000 more people(and counting) voted for Walker than they did previously because he stood up to money stealing unions.

Wait. That isn't what they meant??
The message from the majority of voters only counts when it fits the narrative.

hawaii 5-0
6/6/2012, 01:12 AM
Seems you were wrong on all points



Wrong.

The elections were earlier than planned. The recall petitions, verifications, lawsuits, etc. primary selections went all as planned.

I haven't seen the final results yet but it seems to not be as close projected.

Most people knew who they wanted months ago and a lot just thought the whole thing was unnecessary.

We'll see when Walker goes after the state employees exempted this last go 'round.


I dunno about the recall of the state legislators.

Goes to show that a 7:1 money advantage (mostly from out of state) can buy an election.

Well see if it translates to a national level.

Oh, and BTW, Walker will soon be indicted for having employees campaign illegally while he was in charge of Milwaukee.

Some of those questioned have already worked out plea bargains.

5-0

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/6/2012, 01:19 AM
Wrong.

The elections were earlier than planned. The recall petitions, verifications, lawsuits, etc. primary selections went all as planned.

I haven't seen the final results yet but it seems to not be as close projected.

Most people knew who they wanted months ago and a lot just thought the whole thing was unnecessary.

We'll see when Walker goes after the state employees exempted this last go 'round.


I dunno about the recall of the state legislators.

Goes to show that a 7:1 money advantage (mostly from out of state) can buy an election.

Well see if it translates to a national level.

Oh, and BTW, Walker will soon be indicted for having employees campaign illegally while he was in charge of Milwaukee.

Some of those questioned have already worked out plea bargains.

5-0Overspending towards bankruptcy by a state doesn't bother you much, it seems. Not a surprise.

hawaii 5-0
6/6/2012, 01:44 AM
Overspending towards bankruptcy by a state doesn't bother you much, it seems. Not a surprise.


Nothing in my post suggests a lack of fiscal responsibility.

I'm constantly amused by idiots that try to tell me what I think.

The results were 53% to 46%.

Almost half the State believe Walker is a crook and a scoundrel.


Spin away. Just don't try to tell me what I believe. Keep your opinions yours. I'll keep mine, thank you.

5-0

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 04:30 AM
Wrong.

The elections were earlier than planned. The recall petitions, verifications, lawsuits, etc. primary selections went all as planned.

I haven't seen the final results yet but it seems to not be as close projected.

Most people knew who they wanted months ago and a lot just thought the whole thing was unnecessary.

We'll see when Walker goes after the state employees exempted this last go 'round.


I dunno about the recall of the state legislators.

Goes to show that a 7:1 money advantage (mostly from out of state) can buy an election.

Well see if it translates to a national level.

Oh, and BTW, Walker will soon be indicted for having employees campaign illegally while he was in charge of Milwaukee.

Some of those questioned have already worked out plea bargains.

5-0

http://rlv.zcache.com/pairity_sticker_democratic_cry_babies_party_seal-p217735059662733711envb3_400.jpg

What this election goes to show is when you lower property taxes, keep schools from laying off massive numbers of teachers, close a $3.6 billion budget deficit without raising taxes, and even create a $154 million budget surplus for the current budget cycle you are rewarded with an easy victory in an election.

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 04:40 AM
Another thing this fiasco for the Dems proved is that unions are finished. Since Wisconsin no longer does the union's dirty work and take out dues for them, the Wisconsin chapter of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees fell to 28,745 in February from 62,818 in March 2011.

A drop of 34,000 members in less than a year??

Even union members don't want to be in the union.

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 04:51 AM
I posted this back in August.. Only thing I could possibly add is slapping around their mom in public.


Except it didn't work. Overall vote totals were 52-48% in favor of the Repubs.

The Left in Wisconsin are going to have to face some hard facts. Scott Walker, for all practical purposes, kicked sand in their face. Then took their lunch money. Now he's nailing their girlfriend....

MamaMia
6/6/2012, 06:31 AM
We know darn good and well the anti Walker voters were trying a lot harder than the pro Walker people were and they still lost.

jk the sooner fan
6/6/2012, 07:15 AM
hey Hawaii 5-0

here's some salt for your crow:


With over 99-percent of the vote counted, the Republican Walker led Democrat Tom Barrett 53-46 percent, with Brookfield kidney specialist Hari Trivedi getting the other one-percent. Walker’s victory margin was slightly bigger than when he first defeated Barrett in 2010.

http://www.piercecountyherald.com/event/article/id/45873/

marfacowboy
6/6/2012, 07:52 AM
If Scott Walker's policies were in place during the most trying moments in Oklahoma history, the state would be behind Mississippi today.

marfacowboy
6/6/2012, 08:01 AM
Wrong.


Goes to show that a 7:1 money advantage (mostly from out of state) can buy an election.

Well see if it translates to a national level.


This is the big issue. Money....elections are now going to be about 1) who has the deepest pockets, and 2) the best propagandists.
The whole system is so scummy. There's no honor in it whatsoever.

marfacowboy
6/6/2012, 08:04 AM
Another thing this fiasco for the Dems proved is that unions are finished. Since Wisconsin no longer does the union's dirty work and take out dues for them, the Wisconsin chapter of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees fell to 28,745 in February from 62,818 in March 2011.

A drop of 34,000 members in less than a year??

Even union members don't want to be in the union.

There's a lot of corruption and issue with many unions. But let's not forget why we have unions and how workers were exploited in this nation. One of the first groups to unionize and strike were cowboys. Perhaps our most treasured, American icon. They were exploited by big owners and corporate ranches, particularly ranches bought up by easterners. Rail workers, miners, many of which faced the wrath of private security forces like Pinkerton's if they tried to organize and improve conditions.

Tulsa_Fireman
6/6/2012, 08:05 AM
What, you think that's new?

Please.

Sooner98
6/6/2012, 08:10 AM
This is the big issue. Money....elections are now going to be about 1) who has the deepest pockets, and 2) the best propagandists.
The whole system is so scummy. There's no honor in it whatsoever.

In 2008, Obama out-spent McCain 2 to 1. Therefore, there's no honor in his presidency, right?

okie52
6/6/2012, 08:14 AM
If Scott Walker's policies were in place during the most trying moments in Oklahoma history, the state would be behind Mississippi today.

Evidently Wisconsin was more afraid of being bankrupt with barretts and union policies.

marfacowboy
6/6/2012, 08:19 AM
In 2008, Obama out-spent McCain 2 to 1. Therefore, there's no honor in his presidency, right?

I don't think there's much. He's increased drone strikes, maintains unilateral control over an assassination list that can include American citizens, buddied up to Wall Street and enjoyed the benefits of their ill-gotten gains. He's no socialist. Anyone that says that is so completely ignorant it's laughable. He's a master capitalist. But conservatives don't like him, because he's not their guy, and he's black. And most conservatives just don't have the balls to admit it.

Tulsa_Fireman
6/6/2012, 08:22 AM
Stoopit black peepole

marfacowboy
6/6/2012, 08:25 AM
In 2008, Obama out-spent McCain 2 to 1. Therefore, there's no honor in his presidency, right?

And I'd say men like Eisenhower, Bradley, Robert E. Lee, Lincoln, Chief Joseph, John Muir...those were men of honor. We don't have many that I can name these days.

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 08:47 AM
There's a lot of corruption and issue with many unions. But let's not forget why we have unions and how workers were exploited in this nation. One of the first groups to unionize and strike were cowboys. Perhaps our most treasured, American icon. They were exploited by big owners and corporate ranches, particularly ranches bought up by easterners. Rail workers, miners, many of which faced the wrath of private security forces like Pinkerton's if they tried to organize and improve conditions.

That has no bearing on what unions do now. Unions had worked with the government to force people to pay dues regardless if they wanted to be in the union or not. In another words, they exploited them. No longer will that happen in Wisconsin.

Strange that you don't believe workers should be given a choice in the matter.

There are many things that once served a useful purpose, but are no longer needed or wanted. The unions, apparently, are just the latest example.

Tulsa_Fireman
6/6/2012, 08:51 AM
You're right, because the right to peaceably assemble is so outdated.

Sooner98
6/6/2012, 08:58 AM
jy8FSyI_Djg

marfacowboy
6/6/2012, 09:04 AM
That has no bearing on what unions do now.

History is always relevant, and one of the reasons it's relevant in this case, and all cases involving unions, is to provide historical perspective as a counterpoint to the current demonization of all unions. This isn't just about Wisconsin. This is part of a much larger battle occurring across the nation.


Strange that you don't believe workers should be given a choice in the matter.

Where did I say that? I didn't.


There are many things that once served a useful purpose, but are no longer needed or wanted. The unions, apparently, are just the latest example.

A generalization and false. If anything, the recent massive transfer of wealth to a very small minority is proof that, more than ever, we need mechanisms to help the working class. And now we have a whole new class of exploited workers, illegal immigrants. It's fascinating to me how Republicans that aren't business owners bemoan the situation with immigration, yet, their brethren that own businesses hypocritically thrive off the very thing their party attacks.

cleller
6/6/2012, 09:06 AM
jy8FSyI_Djg

Wow, I woke up this morning and had no idea that the USA and democracy were over and done with.

Tulsa_Fireman
6/6/2012, 09:07 AM
Funny how it sneaks up on you, ain't it?

"Oooga booga! Got yo democracy! HAR HAR."

cleller
6/6/2012, 09:24 AM
As a hypothetical question, if you had the resources to build a manufacturing plant, and wanted to build in the US if at all possible, how would union issues affect your decision?

It may be a stretch, but lets say you had all good intentions of paying as high wages as you could, treat employees well, and play by the rules. Would you be more likely to undertake this in a state where you had to deal with unions?

I would never try to establish such a business if I was going to have to deal with a union, just too many headaches.

pphilfran
6/6/2012, 09:31 AM
As a hypothetical question, if you had the resources to build a manufacturing plant, and wanted to build in the US if at all possible, how would union issues affect your decision?

It may be a stretch, but lets say you had all good intentions of paying as high wages as you could, treat employees well, and play by the rules. Would you be more likely to undertake this in a state where you had to deal with unions?

I would never try to establish such a business if I was going to have to deal with a union, just too many headaches.

Most new plants go up as non union...

They will base pay on what union plants pay...some jobs might get a little less and some a little more but they average out to be basically the same...

The associates at the Goodyear Lawton plant make more as tire builders than what union shops pay tire builders...after union dues are paid a tire builder at Goodyear Lawton will get 2-3 dollars more per hour than a union shop...

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 09:33 AM
History is always relevant, and one of the reasons it's relevant in this case, and all cases involving unions, is to provide historical perspective as a counterpoint to the current demonization of all unions. This isn't just about Wisconsin. This is part of a much larger battle occurring across the nation.

Where did I say that? I didn't.

A generalization and false. If anything, the recent massive transfer of wealth to a very small minority is proof that, more than ever, we need mechanisms to help the working class. And now we have a whole new class of exploited workers, illegal immigrants. It's fascinating to me how Republicans that aren't business owners bemoan the situation with immigration, yet, their brethren that own businesses hypocritically thrive off the very thing their party attacks.

There is no demonization of unions, there is only ineptitude of unions. 37K people stopped paying dues and left the Wisconsin chapter of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees in less than a year when given the choice. They obviously feel the union does not benefit them or represent them. You seem very unhappy they have the choice.

All your hyperbole doesn't change the fact that unions in Wisconsin now have the same basic rights as federal workers. Big deal. What scares the public employee unions is that if other states follow Wisconsin and stop enforcing dues payments it really will spell the end for them just as it has in my example above. Their racket of exploitation is coming to an end.

Maybe this will force union leaders to realize they are not doing their jobs and no longer have the trust of the public or their membership.

dwarthog
6/6/2012, 09:51 AM
jy8FSyI_Djg


For some reason when watching that video, this excerpt from Aliens sprang to mind... NSFW

dsx2vdn7gpY

KantoSooner
6/6/2012, 09:57 AM
If the primary justification for unions and collective bargaining is to provide some balance to bargaining power between workers and bosses, then it's a bit weird in the case of public workers; since they are essentially demanding to be protected from the depredations of the public (including themselves).

Given their historic affiliatioin with one and only one political party, public employee unions come very close, for me, of not passing the smell test. They just don't feel like legitimate organizations.

TitoMorelli
6/6/2012, 10:27 AM
kS0Dqz2P1sk

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 10:44 AM
kS0Dqz2P1sk

It WAS important until they lost...

GrapevineSooner
6/6/2012, 10:45 AM
There's a lot of corruption and issue with many unions. But let's not forget why we have unions and how workers were exploited in this nation. One of the first groups to unionize and strike were cowboys. Perhaps our most treasured, American icon. They were exploited by big owners and corporate ranches, particularly ranches bought up by easterners. Rail workers, miners, many of which faced the wrath of private security forces like Pinkerton's if they tried to organize and improve conditions.

I fully recognize the role of unions in our nation's history and just why they were formed.

These days, unions are fighting for common sense laws to protect the welfare of laborers. They're fighting for pensions that I'm betting the vast majority of us in the private sector don't get. Pensions that, in some state and city governments, becomes an albatross when it's time to trim the fat.

They're also fighting against Right to Work laws, such as the one just recently enacted in Indiana. If unions are so good and beneficiary, shouldn't a worker of sound mind and judgement be allowed to decide whether a union is good for them or not?

And to all those, like 5-0, that are whining about the spending advantages that Walker supposedly enjoyed (and I highly doubt it was by a 7-to-1 advantage)...umm...didn't your side start all this recall crap?

hawaii 5-0
6/6/2012, 10:47 AM
hey Hawaii 5-0

here's some salt for your crow:



http://www.piercecountyherald.com/event/article/id/45873/

No crow for me, thank you.

I said that there would be petition drives to recall Walker. People lined up to disagree that they would get enough votes.

Then when the signatures were turned in, people said most would be discounted. Almost a million were collected and just a few were thrown out.

Did I offer any crow to the posers who were wrong?

I'm not shocked Walker won. I'm surprised he won by 7%. I thought it would be 2 or 3% regardless of who won.



There were a lot of people on both sides that thought a recall election was out of order. That there weren't grounds for a recall and it was a waste of time and money. There's the difference.

All that money from both sides and the results were essentially the same. Interesting.

Walker has pledged to work forward with both sides. We'll see.

Meanwhile the John Doe investigation continues....

5-0

hawaii 5-0
6/6/2012, 10:49 AM
Whining???

There's no whining on this Board.

Today's a new day.

5-0

Sooner98
6/6/2012, 11:15 AM
The liberal War on Women continues, unabated:

http://www.examiner.com/article/madison-protester-threatens-lt-gov-kleefisch-we-re-coming-after-her

hawaii 5-0
6/6/2012, 11:32 AM
The liberal War on Women continues, unabated:

http://www.examiner.com/article/madison-protester-threatens-lt-gov-kleefisch-we-re-coming-after-her


That's really uncouth. That guy is an extremist.

According to the article there were 100 pages of death threats to all the legislators. I doubt the Libs wrote all of them.

5-0

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 11:34 AM
I would urge you to actually check on Scott Walker's popularity in Wisconsin right now. Independents are distancing themselves from him like crazy as are most moderate Republicans.

Your spin doesn't mean squat in Wisconsin. BTW, the trickle effect is happening now in Michigan and Ohio.


5-0

Trump/ Cecil 2012

What does my spin mean now?

marfacowboy
6/6/2012, 11:34 AM
There is no demonization of unions, there is only ineptitude of unions.

Oh, please. That's ridiculous. I could copy and past 1000 pages of quotes, stories, etc. supporting my point, but what would be the point? Both sides are dug in. There's no point in debate or discussion, because both sides are too far apart. The ideological divide is simply too great. The winners will be the one's with the most money, and that will likely be the Republicans.
The "racket of exploitation" works both ways, and anyone that believes that corruption and exploitation are the exclusive domain of just one group is either stone cold drunk, stupid or willfully ignoring reality.

marfacowboy
6/6/2012, 11:39 AM
I fully recognize the role of unions in our nation's history and just why they were formed.

These days, unions are fighting for common sense laws to protect the welfare of laborers. They're fighting for pensions that I'm betting the vast majority of us in the private sector don't get. Pensions that, in some state and city governments, becomes an albatross when it's time to trim the fat.

They're also fighting against Right to Work laws, such as the one just recently enacted in Indiana. If unions are so good and beneficiary, shouldn't a worker of sound mind and judgement be allowed to decide whether a union is good for them or not?

And to all those, like 5-0, that are whining about the spending advantages that Walker supposedly enjoyed (and I highly doubt it was by a 7-to-1 advantage)...umm...didn't your side start all this recall crap?

I'm cognizant of the problems, but in some cases, particularly in the case of USPS, they were forced by law to unnecessarily fund things years in advance.
I fully understand corruption in unions, but I also fully understand how people are exploited. As a business owner, I've always felt the most logical solution to the whole mess was to create more employee equity. Not options. Real equity. Make employees vested owners, and give them a democratic voice in the affairs of the company.
I created a cloud computing company in 2003 that I sold in December. We used that model, and we never lost a single employee. Everyone was paid well and they're all still with the company, albeit under different ownership. It's about creating a good work environment where people can take pride in their work and enjoy the financial success of the company. There was never a union, because there didn't need to be a union. People were happy, because they were treated fairly and were true stake holders.

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 11:41 AM
Oh, please. That's ridiculous. I could copy and past 1000 pages of quotes, stories, etc. supporting my point, but what would be the point? Both sides are dug in. There's no point in debate or discussion, because both sides are too far apart. The ideological divide is simply too great. The winners will be the one's with the most money, and that will likely be the Republicans.
The "racket of exploitation" works both ways, and anyone that believes that corruption and exploitation are the exclusive domain of just one group is either stone cold drunk, stupid or willfully ignoring reality.

You have pointedly ignored the fact that 10s of thousands of union members have left in the last year when no longer forced to pay dues. Why is that?

hawaii 5-0
6/6/2012, 11:43 AM
For all those really interested in Wisconsin politics there were other recall elections.


Also on the recall ballot were Lt. Gov. Rebecca Kleefisch and four state Senate seats. Kleefisch defeated her Democratic opponent, Madison firefighter and union president Mahlon Mitchell, in the nation's first-ever recall election of a lieutenant governor.


Three Senators retained their seats. However one, John Lehman (D-Racine) defeated incumbent Van Wanggaard in a tight race. The majority was less than 1,000 votes so a recount is likely. A Dem win would give a majority in the Senate to the Dems and oust Scott Fitzgerald as Speaker. It would also force Gov. Walker to actually work with the Democrats to pass legislation instead of ramrodding bills through like before, under protest.

Meanwhile the John Doe investigation continues.....

5-0

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 11:49 AM
For all those really interested in Wisconsin politics there were other recall elections.


Also on the recall ballot were Lt. Gov. Rebecca Kleefisch and four state Senate seats. Kleefisch defeated her Democratic opponent, Madison firefighter and union president Mahlon Mitchell, in the nation's first-ever recall election of a lieutenant governor.


Three Senators retained their seats. However one, John Lehman (D-Racine) defeated incumbent Van Wanggaard in a tight race. The majority was less than 1,000 votes so a recount is likely. A Dem win would give a majority in the Senate to the Dems and oust Scott Fitzgerald as Speaker. It would also force Gov. Walker to actually work with the Democrats to pass legislation instead of ramrodding bills through like before, under protest.

Meanwhile the John Doe investigation continues.....

5-0

Not really. The Wisconsin Senate is already out of session until 2013 with a lot of seats up for grabs before then in the November elections. With the districts redrawn, most expect the Repubs to pick back up at least 2 more seats.

So it is a victory of sorts.. A very hollow victory. But when that is all you have to show for 10s of millions of dollars, I guess it is something.

hawaii 5-0
6/6/2012, 11:50 AM
What does my spin mean now?


When I posted that note Walker's popularity was 30%. See those two words right now? That's what it meant then.

Your spin is that it's an old post. Nothing more.

5-0

hawaii 5-0
6/6/2012, 11:52 AM
Not really. The Wisconsin Senate is already out of session until 2013 with a lot of seats up for grabs before then in the November elections. With the districts redrawn, most expect the Repubs to pick back up at least 2 more seats.

So it is a victory of sorts.. A very hollow victory. But when that is all you have to show for 10s of millions of dollars, I guess it is something.


What it means is that Walker won't be calling any 'midnight emergency' sessions of the legislature to move his bills through.

5-0

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/6/2012, 11:54 AM
[QUOTE=hawaii 5-0;3482243]Nothing in my post suggests a lack of fiscal responsibility.
I'm constantly amused by idiots that try to tell me what I think.
The results were 53% to 46%.
Almost half the State believe Walker is a crook and a scoundrel.
Spin away. Just don't try to tell me what I believe. Keep your opinions yours. I'll keep mine, thank you.
5-0[/QUOTE


Govt. unions forever entitled to a free lunch on the backs of the private sector?

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 11:59 AM
When I posted that note Walker's popularity was 30%. See those two words right now? That's what it meant then.

Your spin is that it's an old post. Nothing more.

5-0

Or it means that you visit left websites that had poor polling data or were searching for anything to try to validate your position..

How is the imminent arrest of Judge Prosser coming along?

sappstuf
6/6/2012, 12:01 PM
What it means is that Walker won't be calling any 'midnight emergency' sessions of the legislature to move his bills through.

5-0

He doesn't need to.

Besides, everyone has seen that his policies have been good for Wisconsin and that is the main reason he was easily reelected.

As you said yourself:


Let's see how things progress this Fall. Instead of initiating most of his Budget Cutting Bill's measures last Spring when the Bill was passed and later ruled on by the Supreme Court, Walker decided to wait till the Recall Elections were over and things had cooled off a bit.

Once the changes take effect we'll see how the public reacts.


5-0

Trump/ Perry's fistula 2012

The public reacted by overwhelmingly voting for Walker again.

Bourbon St Sooner
6/6/2012, 12:27 PM
The political operatives, Wisconsin media outlets and poll workers thank all the outside agitators for this incredible waste of taxpayer dollars.

Can we all agree now that recalls are stupid?

KantoSooner
6/6/2012, 12:53 PM
Yes, looking for common ground, agreeing that recalls are stupid is a pretty good place to start. Most political terms are pretty short to start with. If you have a moron in office, build your campaign to defeat him in the event he decides to run again.
Recalls should be reserved for cases where the office holder is beyond the pale. Like if he was shooting smack at his seat in the legislature, while it was in session. or if he decided to open fire on other legislators with his handgun. Someone like a Blagoyovich. (or however the db's name is spelled.)

marfacowboy
6/6/2012, 03:28 PM
You have pointedly ignored the fact that 10s of thousands of union members have left in the last year when no longer forced to pay dues. Why is that?

I haven't ignored anything. I haven't been asked for an opinion on this issue. But just to be clear, since apparently the larger points of my earlier posts have either been ignored or not understood, I'm not defending unions. I even provided an alternative. I simply believe there are several key things that deserve some attention. One, there is (despite the lank rebuttal) an overall demonization of unions and along with this comes demonization and marginalization of the rights of workers to organize. And two, you cannot ignore the history, lest you care to repeat it. If you're not going to have unions, there have to be other ways to protect the rights of workers.
Senior management is driven, in most cases, to keep wages as low as possible and get as much as possible out of each worker. This almost always, without protections, leads to issues. And don't tell me minimum wage is a living wage and such a protection. It most assuredly is not. Try living on minimum wage and see how you like it.

Bourbon St Sooner
6/6/2012, 03:33 PM
Well, there's already a process to deal with guys that do something illegal in office. You also have checks on power with the Legislature and Judiciary. If you don't like what this guy is doing, win the next election and change the laws. There's usually a 2 year cycle of legislatures a least for a portion of the legislature. If the dude did something really egregious, the electorate can throw all of his buddies in the legislature out in two short years.

Apparently the electorate didn't think this dude did anything very bad, but the taxpayers spent a lot of money to feed the frenzy of a few folks out there.

cleller
6/6/2012, 06:59 PM
For good or bad, it feels like unions are going, going, almost gone.

With all the talk in businesses these days being focused on speed, being nimble, adaptive, unions seem problematic. The reality is the companies that are involved in the trades that have been associated with unions no longer are willing or able to deal with them. They will operate where they can find non-union labor, period.

States like Wisconsin are realizing this.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/6/2012, 07:11 PM
For good or bad, it feels like unions are going, going, almost gone.

With all the talk in businesses these days being focused on speed, being nimble, adaptive, unions seem problematic. The reality is the companies that are involved in the trades that have been associated with unions no longer are willing or able to deal with them. They will operate where they can find non-union labor, period.

States like Wisconsin are realizing this.A VERY big problem is the situation where a state does not have right to work laws. IOW, if you allow unions, ONLY union people are allwed to work in certain industries. If competition isn't allowed, the employer must go out of state or out of country if the unions get to be too burdensome, in one way or another.

After all, the job of the employer is to make money, and if labor costs are prohibitive, adjustments in the labor situation are necessary.

soonercruiser
6/6/2012, 09:10 PM
For all those really interested in Wisconsin politics there were other recall elections.


Also on the recall ballot were Lt. Gov. Rebecca Kleefisch and four state Senate seats. Kleefisch defeated her Democratic opponent, Madison firefighter and union president Mahlon Mitchell, in the nation's first-ever recall election of a lieutenant governor.


Three Senators retained their seats. However one, John Lehman (D-Racine) defeated incumbent Van Wanggaard in a tight race. The majority was less than 1,000 votes so a recount is likely. A Dem win would give a majority in the Senate to the Dems and oust Scott Fitzgerald as Speaker. It would also force Gov. Walker to actually work with the Democrats to pass legislation instead of ramrodding bills through like before, under protest.
Meanwhile the John Doe investigation continues.....

5-0

Yah! Working with other people....kinda like Obama didn't on the healthcare bill.
I got your "slant"!

AND!!!! Maybe this means that the Dems will actually stay in their seats, and not leave the state....abandoning their responsibility to vote on behalf of their constituents.
:offended:

soonercruiser
6/6/2012, 09:24 PM
I fully recognize the role of unions in our nation's history and just why they were formed.

These days, unions are fighting for common sense laws to protect the welfare of laborers. They're fighting for pensions that I'm betting the vast majority of us in the private sector don't get. Pensions that, in some state and city governments, becomes an albatross when it's time to trim the fat.

They're also fighting against Right to Work laws, such as the one just recently enacted in Indiana. If unions are so good and beneficiary, shouldn't a worker of sound mind and judgement be allowed to decide whether a union is good for them or not?

And to all those, like 5-0, that are whining about the spending advantages that Walker supposedly enjoyed (and I highly doubt it was by a 7-to-1 advantage)...umm...didn't your side start all this recall crap?

That line about how much was spent is a bunch of bull crap!
When you count in all the costs of starting the recall procedure, getting signatures, all the lead-up busing in of protesters from out od state, and all the outside of the state commerical purchases by the unions and Dem Party....it's almost a wash!

To the left...no lie is too big when it comes to saving their collective a**es.

soonercruiser
6/6/2012, 09:30 PM
I don't think there's much. He's increased drone strikes, maintains unilateral control over an assassination list that can include American citizens, buddied up to Wall Street and enjoyed the benefits of their ill-gotten gains. He's no socialist. Anyone that says that is so completely ignorant it's laughable. He's a master capitalist. But conservatives don't like him, because he's not their guy, and he's black. And most conservatives just don't have the balls to admit it.

Don't ya just love it when a Left Wing lemming trys to think at all, let alone think like a conservative. FAIL!
:smiley_simmons:
It just isn't in the brain cells to think that the Party might not be more important than the future of the country for our grandchildren.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/6/2012, 09:32 PM
When you count in all the costs of starting the recall procedure, getting signatures, all the lead-up busing in of protesters from out of state, and all the outside of the state commerical purchases by the unions and Dem Party....

To the left...no lie is too big when it comes to saving their collective a**es.The govt. union folks don't appear to give a whit whether the state can afford their salaries, pensions, health care and any other benefits or not. And, certainly don't want to make ANY sacrifices, like the Private Sector must suffer.

marfacowboy
6/6/2012, 09:41 PM
Don't ya just love it when a Left Wing lemming trys to think at all, let alone think like a conservative. FAIL!
:smiley_simmons:
It just isn't in the brain cells to think that the Party might not be more important than the future of the country for our grandchildren.

You're a complete idiot.

cleller
6/6/2012, 10:02 PM
jy8FSyI_Djg

I keep being reminded of this guy crying about how "democracy died tonight".

He's standing outside in the USA, after a free election decided (for the second time) who would govern, voicing his opinion freely without fear of reprisal; and he thinks democracy is dead.

diverdog
6/6/2012, 10:10 PM
A VERY big problem is the situation where a state does not have right to work laws. IOW, if you allow unions, ONLY union people are allwed to work in certain industries. If competition isn't allowed, the employer must go out of state or out of country if the unions get to be too burdensome, in one way or another.

After all, the job of the employer is to make money, and if labor costs are prohibitive, adjustments in the labor situation are necessary.

And what about senior management who suck companies dry of cash? Want an example.....GE!

sappstuf
6/7/2012, 05:48 AM
I haven't ignored anything. I haven't been asked for an opinion on this issue. But just to be clear, since apparently the larger points of my earlier posts have either been ignored or not understood, I'm not defending unions. I even provided an alternative. I simply believe there are several key things that deserve some attention. One, there is (despite the lank rebuttal) an overall demonization of unions and along with this comes demonization and marginalization of the rights of workers to organize.

Of course you are defending unions and no one is marginalizing the rights of workers to organize. What the workers do have now is the ability to decide to pay their dues or not. That might be taking power away from the union, but it is giving the power to the worker. It is an odd argument to place yourself in that the union should have the power and not the worker.


And two, you cannot ignore the history, lest you care to repeat it.

I love when people trot out this saying.. It doesn't mean anything unless what you are talking about is still relevant. Try going around to some youth and say "Don't forget to hobble your horse at night and always keep your powder dry." It isn't relevant today in the age of vehicle and airplanes and internet. Alternatively, saying an army fights on its stomach is just as true today as when Napoleon first said it. The union is becoming increasingly irrelevant as keeping your powder dry.


If you're not going to have unions, there have to be other ways to protect the rights of workers.

Senior management is driven, in most cases, to keep wages as low as possible and get as much as possible out of each worker. This almost always, without protections, leads to issues. And don't tell me minimum wage is a living wage and such a protection. It most assuredly is not. Try living on minimum wage and see how you like it.

You certainly have a point there and the answer is right in front of you. The union was very good at improving work conditions and making industries raise safety standards and lowered the number of hours a person had to work in a week and of course wages. But who does the majority of those things now and then enforces their regulation? The federal government does and they do it far more efficient than the union ever could when fighting isolated battles. When the federal government was weak on regulation a union was needed. When the federal government is strong on regulation and protection of the worker then the unions become increasingly irrelevant, which they have.

Workers have far more power today then when unions were at their height. Back then, workers didn't know what the factories two counties over were paying and would have a difficult time getting over there to find out. Today, you can search for jobs covering the entire planet. This gives workers, at least ones that have proven themselves a commodity, a strong hand.

This isn't demonization and what you characterize as marginalization is just progress. There is no question that the horse was marginalized by the automobile and if I pointed out that horses pooped everywhere and large cities had animal dung everywhere isn't demonization. It is a fact. The horse helped human for thousands of years.. But at a certain point, they were no longer needed. It happens and it is happening to the unions.

sappstuf
6/7/2012, 05:55 AM
And what about senior management who suck companies dry of cash? Want an example.....GE!

How dare you speak of Obama's Job Adviser like that... ;)

marfacowboy
6/7/2012, 06:58 AM
Of course you are defending unions and no one is marginalizing the rights of workers to organize.

Of course they are. We have Walker basically saying that was his goal. The Arizona-based Goldwater Institute and the Michigan-based Mackinac Center for Public Policy successfully shepherded five model bills through ALEC's Commerce, Insurance, and Economic Development Task Force—all targeting public-sector unions. You have dozens of quotes from Romney. You can deny it all you want, but everyone knows what's going on.





I love when people trot out this saying.. It doesn't mean anything unless what you are talking about is still relevant.

And that's precisely why I am saying it, because it still relevant. Let's take the current economic situation. Republicans love to trot out their austerity programs, and apparently in willful defiance or ignorance of history. “The boom, not the slump, is the right time for austerity.” So declared John Maynard Keynes 75 years ago, and he was right.

California, Spain and Great Britain for example, can borrow freely, at historically low interest rates. But they're doing just the opposite. When the private sector is frantically trying to pay down debt, the public sector should do the opposite, spending when the private sector can’t or won’t. Look at the economic history of the Great Depression. Look at the economic history of Oklahoma, a state heavily dependent on government jobs, and with private sectors (oil and gas) that have benefited heavily from the government. Free market my ***. What the Republicans want to do will actually make the economic crisis worse. History spells this out pretty clearly.



Try going around to some youth and say "Don't forget to hobble your horse at night and always keep your powder dry." It isn't relevant today in the age of vehicle and airplanes and internet. Alternatively, saying an army fights on its stomach is just as true today as when Napoleon first said it. The union is becoming increasingly irrelevant as keeping your powder dry.

Different is not the same. Historical economic policy in times of crisis is absolutely relevant, and the rights of workers are relevant. You learn from the history of unions, why we formed them and recognize these are likely trends in human behavior (taking unfair advantage). You examine what worked, what hasn't worked, and you craft a new alternative.





Workers have far more power today then when unions were at their height.

I don't disagree, but unions helped make this happen. Learn your history, and adapt your sociological practice based on history and current developments.


This isn't demonization and what you characterize as marginalization is just progress.

Well, I don't agree here. I think this is a sleight of hand. "Oh, no. We're not demonizing unions. This is just the process of change. Evolution." (Which would be an improper use of the term evolution, but people do it all the time.) But what they leave out is the process of change involves crushing the union, and from there, it's on to more privatization, since privatizing everything is the ultimate goal. The big goal here is not to crush the unions. The big goal is privatization.

soonercruiser
6/7/2012, 10:21 AM
Unions have demonized themselves....just like the UMW...and the miner's union official that tried to kill my father in WV.
(He wouldn't listen to them and slow down his work...)

Who could possibly be against workers having a free choice of whether they should join the union or not???

Why should any union be able to control any work force by requiring union membership before getting a job!
That is not "FREEDOM" of choice!
You libs are for "choice", aren't you???
:jaded:

KantoSooner
6/7/2012, 10:55 AM
Unions may once have served some purpose and, in any event, if creatures of free associatioin, should be beyond challenge.
But that's not the case with US unions. Here, they are thinly veiled fronts for organized crime and tools of extortion. They, along with the invention of the cargo container, are responsible for the destruction of the manufacturing sector in this country.
As such we should all loudly cheer their diminution and ultimate elimination.

And their aptly labelled bosses? They should be gathered up with Wall Street bankers, stripped naked and we should hold a national 'habensfeldtreiben' (look it up, it's amusing).

marfacowboy
6/7/2012, 10:58 AM
Unions may once have served some purpose and, in any event, if creatures of free associatioin, should be beyond challenge.
But that's not the case with US unions. Here, they are thinly veiled fronts for organized crime and tools of extortion. They, along with the invention of the cargo container, are responsible for the destruction of the manufacturing sector in this country.
As such we should all loudly cheer their diminution and ultimate elimination.

And their aptly labelled bosses? They should be gathered up with Wall Street bankers, stripped naked and we should hold a national 'habensfeldtreiben' (look it up, it's amusing).

You could say the same thing about most governments. All hierarchical organizations where large amounts of money flow in and out are subject to the same type of abuse and ultimate self-destruction.

KantoSooner
6/7/2012, 11:22 AM
I tend to agree. Though I like associating with my fellow humans, the trade offs in losses to my freedom are frequently of questionable worth.
That's why I prefer the smallest possible government.
Unions, likewise, are peachy, so long as they are utterly of free association and have no coercive power or authority.

soonercruiser
6/7/2012, 11:22 AM
"Power corrupts!
And, absolute power corrupts absolutely!"

That's what I miss about the military......"moving along" about every 5 years.
The troops needed some fresh blood (leadership) about every 5 years.

TERM LIMITS!!!!

C&CDean
6/7/2012, 11:25 AM
Unions may once have served some purpose and, in any event, if creatures of free associatioin, should be beyond challenge.
But that's not the case with US unions. Here, they are thinly veiled fronts for organized crime and tools of extortion. They, along with the invention of the cargo container, are responsible for the destruction of the manufacturing sector in this country.
As such we should all loudly cheer their diminution and ultimate elimination.

And their aptly labelled bosses? They should be gathered up with Wall Street bankers, stripped naked and we should hold a national 'habensfeldtreiben' (look it up, it's amusing).

Could not agree more.

jk the sooner fan
6/7/2012, 11:56 AM
my only insight into unions is my experience with NATCA - which has become so strong, via politics and extortion bully tactics - that they practically run the FAA

they are as counterproductive to good business sense as anything i've ever witnessed

employee unions in the federal workforce is absurd.......i could see the potential need for a union in a work area where safety is a key issue - but nowhere else

if 75% of the American workforce can survive employment without a union, then so can the other %

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/7/2012, 12:16 PM
Unions may once have served some purpose and, in any event, IF CREATURES OF FREE ASSOCIATION, should be beyond challenge.
But that's not the case with US unions. Here, they are thinly veiled fronts for organized crime and tools of extortion. They, along with the invention of the cargo container, are responsible for the destruction of the manufacturing sector in this country.
As such we should all loudly cheer their diminution and ultimate elimination...
Of course. Probably their worst feature is that you HAVE to use union people, instead of being able to choose not to use them.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/7/2012, 12:18 PM
my only insight into unions is my experience with NATCA - which has become so strong, via politics and extortion bully tactics - that they practically run the FAA

they are as counterproductive to good business sense as anything i've ever witnessed

employee unions in the federal workforce is absurd.......i could see the potential need for a union in a work area where safety is a key issue - but nowhere else

if 75% of the American workforce can survive employment without a union, then so can the other %Excellent

marfacowboy
6/7/2012, 01:51 PM
For what it's worth, and across a larger context, it seems there are several huge issues in our nation right now. I'd be interested in hearing the liberal and conservative views on each.

-A fragile economy with too much manufacturing being sent overseas.
-Too much government spending, but because of the delicate state of the economy, we are forced to sustain or even increase spending (by borrowing, if necessary, at super low interest rates). Remember, budgets and economics in major nation states do not work like budgets at home or in businesses, a not so subtle reality most people don't understand
-The unfortunate but inescapable fact there is no such thing as the "free-market" in these not-so-United States. The economy of the United States has always been completely dependent on government spending, from transportation, mining, agriculture and manufacturing. Read in today's NYT's about agricultural subsidies, particularly crop insurance. We've existed in a quasi-socialist model, minimally a hybridization of capitalism and socialism, from day one.
-And more related to the current discussion, an erosion of the middle class, which seems to me an issue that is undeniably tied to wage disparity.
-Dependence on a non-sustainable economic model, one that calls for growth ad infinitum in a world of finite resources.
-The erosion of communities, particularly strong neighborhood schools, libraries and locally owned businesses, although this does seem to be improving.
-And of course the spectre of terrorism, which could easily but uncomfortably be cured if we adopted the Israeli security model. Sometimes, hard core conservative measures are the only alternative.

pphilfran
6/7/2012, 02:15 PM
For what it's worth, and across a larger context, it seems there are several huge issues in our nation right now. I'd be interested in hearing the liberal and conservative views on each.

-A fragile economy with too much manufacturing being sent overseas.
-Too much government spending, but because of the delicate state of the economy, we are forced to sustain or even increase spending (by borrowing, if necessary, at super low interest rates). Remember, budgets and economics in major nation states do not work like budgets at home or in businesses, a not so subtle reality most people don't understand
-The unfortunate but inescapable fact there is no such thing as the "free-market" in these not-so-United States. The economy of the United States has always been completely dependent on government spending, from transportation, mining, agriculture and manufacturing. Read in today's NYT's about agricultural subsidies, particularly crop insurance. We've existed in a quasi-socialist model, minimally a hybridization of capitalism and socialism, from day one.
-And more related to the current discussion, an erosion of the middle class, which seems to me an issue that is undeniably tied to wage disparity.
-Dependence on a non-sustainable economic model, one that calls for growth ad infinitum in a world of finite resources.
-The erosion of communities, particularly strong neighborhood schools, libraries and locally owned businesses, although this does seem to be improving.
-And of course the spectre of terrorism, which could easily but uncomfortably be cured if we adopted the Israeli security model. Sometimes, hard core conservative measures are the only alternative.

It would take me two days to answer all of those questions...

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/7/2012, 02:16 PM
haha marfac, you're properly schooled, and don't need any more input from the Lib's point of view.

KantoSooner
6/7/2012, 02:24 PM
Marfa,
Taking the luxury of addressing only one of your points, why do you think 'too much' manufacturing is being done overseas? Is there a right quantum of manufactured goods to import? How about exporting? Should we voluntarily restrict what we sell to the rest of the world? Should every country thus have at least one factory making each and every article that is needed or wanted in that country? (this last seems at odds with your concern regarding finite resources.)

You are absolutely correct in pointing out that our economy today is hybridized and contains a large dollop of governmental planning, regulation and general bureaucratic jiggery-pokery. Is this state of affairs, however, working well or in any way an argument in favor of continuing to run things this way? Is there any evidence that an official, elected or appointed, or, indeed, even a panel of experts can make macro- or micro-economic decisions that are superior in any way to the collective (gasp!) intelligence of individuals acting out of their own interest in a market? Yes, I know, Barry Commoner, The Tragedy Of The Commons, and all that, but are humans magically transformed and ridded of their self interest by the act of going to work for the government? To approximately the same degree, I would suspect, that priests are ridded of their sex drive by ordination.

I accept that it would be nigh impossible to enjoy the fruits of as complex an economy as our own without some degree of regulation. I also accept that government is the best agent to concuct and implement those regulations. Unless or until the laws of unintended consequences are repealed, however, it seems to me that we should (and more importantly our elected officials and their appointed minions) admit to being idiots in vast areas of endeavour and thus strive to get by with the least regulation possible and do our best to make such regulation as simple, compact and limited as possible. If not because we believe in human freedom above all other values then because we fear the results that we did not foresee.

Well, that's all I've got for the moment.

marfacowboy
6/7/2012, 03:15 PM
Marfa,
Taking the luxury of addressing only one of your points, why do you think 'too much' manufacturing is being done overseas? Is there a right quantum of manufactured goods to import? How about exporting? Should we voluntarily restrict what we sell to the rest of the world? Should every country thus have at least one factory making each and every article that is needed or wanted in that country? (this last seems at odds with your concern regarding finite resources.)

I think this is strictly an issue of cost. Apple, for example, can manufacture their required components exponentially cheaper overseas. We know that. There are cities constructed in some countries specifically for this purpose. Chips at one location, small screws required in the assembly are manufactured two miles down the road.
But one of the reasons we were able to prepare and win the Second World War was our manufacturing base. We no longer have that base, and I believe it's a matter of national security. Not just military security, but also economic. We're way too dependent on foreign goods.
I don't really know the answers to the other questions.


You are absolutely correct in pointing out that our economy today is hybridized and contains a large dollop of governmental planning, regulation and general bureaucratic jiggery-pokery. Is this state of affairs, however, working well or in any way an argument in favor of continuing to run things this way? Is there any evidence that an official, elected or appointed, or, indeed, even a panel of experts can make macro- or micro-economic decisions that are superior in any way to the collective (gasp!) intelligence of individuals acting out of their own interest in a market? Yes, I know, Barry Commoner, The Tragedy Of The Commons, and all that, but are humans magically transformed and ridded of their self interest by the act of going to work for the government? To approximately the same degree, I would suspect, that priests are ridded of their sex drive by ordination.

I think it's all about balance. Our economy functions at peak performance when government and the private sector are in balance. Regulation and the ability to operate as a private entity are balance. Regulation doesn't strangle business, but businesses aren't allowed to have free reign and trash entire ecosystems. I think there are periods when it's worked better than others, and there are periods where government has to spend more to prop up the economy. The Great Depression and Dust Bowl years are a prime example. I think our current economy is a prime example.


it seems to me that we should (and more importantly our elected officials and their appointed minions) admit to being idiots in vast areas of endeavour and thus strive to get by with the least regulation possible and do our best to make such regulation as simple, compact and limited as possible. If not because we believe in human freedom above all other values then because we fear the results that we did not foresee.

Yes, this is that whole "balance" thing. But we have now is this unfortunate and ridiculous polarization where neither side seems willing to be honest about things or willing to roll their sleeves up and do the hard work of rebuilding our country. It's all about winning elections and satisfying their donors.
I think there's a rational middle somewhere in this country. People that aren't just spewing Rush Limbaugh's or Al Sharpton's lank propaganda. If you're a real thinker, and really care about this country, your family and your community, you'll look beyond all the hyperbole and BS and try to do the right thing. That often means compromise or losing a narrow point for the greater good.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/7/2012, 03:30 PM
I think there's a rational middle somewhere in this country. People that aren't just spewing Rush Limbaugh's or Al Sharpton's lank propaganda. If you're a real thinker, and really care about this country, your family and your community, you'll look beyond all the hyperbole and BS and try to do the right thing. That often means compromise or losing a narrow point for the greater good.What a load! You don't understand Limbaugh and don't want to, preferring instead to equate him with misguided, stupid or looney folks that occupy your camp. It's silly, marfac. There is no moral equivalence between the Left and the Constitution.

KantoSooner
6/7/2012, 04:14 PM
Well, I was going to say that we've had mindless political posturing since the original Constitutional debate and 'the process' worked out pretty well in the end.

But I guess that point's kind of been made.

landrun
6/7/2012, 04:33 PM
employee unions in the federal workforce is absurd.......i could see the potential need for a union in a work area where safety is a key issue - but nowhere else


Very True.
I've always found it amazing how such an ignorant double standard can exist without the union supporters ever noticing.
The same people who argue that government can be trusted, and thus is the answer to our problems - argue at the same time that federal workers need to unionize against that same government!

It is also amazing to me that the left believe they should be able to force people to join a union in order to provide for their families. That is the typical idea of 'freedom' to the leftist.

marfacowboy
6/7/2012, 04:49 PM
What a load! You don't understand Limbaugh and don't want to, preferring instead to equate him with misguided, stupid or looney folks that occupy your camp. It's silly, marfac. There is no moral equivalence between the Left and the Constitution.

I understand him very well. He's an entertainer and someone who benefits financially from controversy and polarization, just like your buddy Sharpton.
Who said anything about "moral equivalency between the left and the constitution?" What left? Obama isn't a leftist. Most of the real leftists I know can't stand Obama.
You're just as rabid as those vegan, Luddite, "socialist" leftists you blather on and on about. The only difference is you're on the other extreme, but equally irrational.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/7/2012, 04:56 PM
I understand him very well. He's an entertainer and someone who benefits financially from controversy and polarization, just like your buddy Sharpton.
Who said anything about "moral equivalency between the left and the constitution?" What left? Obama isn't a leftist. Most of the real leftists I know can't stand Obama.
You're just as rabid as those vegan, Luddite, "socialist" leftists you blather on and on about. The only difference is you're on the other extreme, but equally irrational.You are acting like it's not in the interest or morals of fellow Leftists to lie about stuff. Are we surprised, here?

marfacowboy
6/7/2012, 06:27 PM
You are acting like it's not in the interest or morals of fellow Leftists to lie about stuff. Are we surprised, here?

Where do you get this stuff? What on earth could have possibly lead you to say this? Frankly, you don't make a lot of sense.

olevetonahill
6/7/2012, 06:29 PM
I understand him very well. He's an entertainer and someone who benefits financially from controversy and polarization, just like your buddy Sharpton.
Who said anything about "moral equivalency between the left and the constitution?" What left? Obama isn't a leftist. Most of the real leftists I know can't stand Obama.
You're just as rabid as those vegan, Luddite, "socialist" leftists you blather on and on about. The only difference is you're on the other extreme, but equally irrational.


Where do you get this stuff? What on earth could have possibly lead you to say this? Frankly, you don't make a lot of sense.

Do you think the 1st post i quoted makes any sense?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/7/2012, 06:40 PM
You are acting like it's not in the interest or morals of fellow Leftists to lie about stuff. Are we surprised, here?Marfac, since you can't figger it out, I'll post the comment you made that I was referring to:

"Who said anything about "moral equivalency between the left and the constitution?" What left? Obama isn't a leftist. Most of the real leftists I know can't stand Obama."-Marfac

marfacowboy
6/7/2012, 08:32 PM
Marfac, since you can't figger it out, I'll post the comment you made that I was referring to:

"Who said anything about "moral equivalency between the left and the constitution?" What left? Obama isn't a leftist. Most of the real leftists I know can't stand Obama."-Marfac

Yeah, and I never brought up the subject of morals and the Constitution. YOU DID. COMPLETELY OUT OF THE BLUE WITH NO POINT OF REFERENCE.
I think I've made it pretty clear people on both sides of the aisle are corrupt. Neither party or group has a monopoly on poor morals. It's just the human condition.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/7/2012, 09:21 PM
Yeah, and I never brought up the subject of morals and the Constitution. YOU DID. COMPLETELY OUT OF THE BLUE WITH NO POINT OF REFERENCE.
I think I've made it pretty clear people on both sides of the aisle are corrupt. Neither party or group has a monopoly on poor morals. It's just the human condition.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz OH HOW persuasive, marfac. We see you.

diverdog
6/7/2012, 09:55 PM
Yeah, and I never brought up the subject of morals and the Constitution. YOU DID. COMPLETELY OUT OF THE BLUE WITH NO POINT OF REFERENCE.
I think I've made it pretty clear people on both sides of the aisle are corrupt. Neither party or group has a monopoly on poor morals. It's just the human condition.

marfacowboy,

Arguing with clone is like pissing in the wind. It is futile.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/7/2012, 09:59 PM
marfacowboy,

Arguing with clone is like pissing in the wind. It is futile.True, trying to convince me to be a statist is really a waste of time. Govt. control of an economy is always a bad situation.

cleller
6/8/2012, 07:11 AM
Meanwhile, back in Wisconsin unemployment is down, there's the budget surplus and teachers ($72k/year) are paying some of their insurance and pension costs, like the rest of us.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/06/wisconsin-recall-fact-checking-the-walker-economy/

marfacowboy
6/8/2012, 07:57 AM
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz OH HOW persuasive, marfac. We see you.

Our discussion is finished.

marfacowboy
6/8/2012, 08:10 AM
Meanwhile, back in Wisconsin unemployment is down, there's the budget surplus and teachers ($72k/year) are paying some of their insurance and pension costs, like the rest of us.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/06/wisconsin-recall-fact-checking-the-walker-economy/

A ruse. Using some unorthodox, and deceiving accounting methods. He's simultaneously claiming there is a deficit so he can drop people from health insurance rolls. This man is a piece of manure.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/does-wisconsin-have-a-budget-deficit-4o3s9ro-137863973.html

To keep the possibility alive of making further cuts to state health programs, the Walker administration quietly certified to the federal government on Dec. 29 that the state had a deficit.
Federal law allows the state to drop tens of thousands of adults to save money on health care costs if the state can show it has a deficit. Walker has said he wants to cut health care spending in other ways, but hasn't ruled out dropping those 53,000 adults if the other methods aren't approved by the federal government.

To keep that option alive, state Administration Secretary Mike Huebsch wrote in a December letter to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services that the state would have an undisclosed deficit from Jan. 1 of this year through June 30, 2013.

In June, Walker and Republican lawmakers passed a balanced budget according to the measure that is always used for state budgets - cash accounting. That means essentially that the state will have cash left in its main account - an estimated balance of $68 million - when the budget ends on June 30, 2013. But the state's accounting method falls well short of those used by publicly traded companies. Those "generally accepted accounting principles" count not just whether the state has cash on hand but also whether it has made promises to pay money that it can't back out on.

Curly Bill
6/8/2012, 08:18 AM
While not particularly a fan of Gov. Walker, it did please me to see the union folks get bent over.

Tulsa_Fireman
6/8/2012, 09:16 AM
Why?

Curly Bill
6/8/2012, 01:31 PM
Why?

Unions no longer serve the purpose for which they were intended. They are now primarily political/money machines for their bosses and their donk overlords.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/8/2012, 01:49 PM
Unions no longer serve the purpose for which they were intended. They are now primarily political/money machines for their bosses and their donk overlords.Also, the idea of govt. employees(all govt. local, state & federal) being in unions is doomed to big problems, since their employer is the people of the country, taxpayers and voters. Even the ultra-lib FDR realized that public employment unions were destined for major problems.

soonercruiser
6/8/2012, 10:01 PM
Quote Rush....
You are acting like it's not in the interest or morals of fellow Leftists to lie about stuff. Are we surprised, here?



Where do you get this stuff? What on earth could have possibly lead you to say this? Frankly, you don't make a lot of sense.

Two words!
Barney's Frank!
:smiley_simmons:

badger
6/11/2012, 01:25 PM
kS0Dqz2P1sk

If I'm not mistaken, one of the people they prominently feature speaking about the importance of this recall is none other than Wisconsin Sen. Russ Feingold.

Of course he would say Wisconsin is important! And I also notice that he isn't included among those saying afterward that it wasn't important after all.

What this recall effort lacked, IMHO, was a strong opponent for Gov. Walker. They should have gotten Michael Moore (if only he were from Wisconsin and not Meatchicken) or someone prominent to oppose him... even ex-Gov. Jim Doyle would do the trick. Maybe roll out the corpse of fightin' Bob LaFollette.

I feel bad for the crying guy on national television saying that democracy died when Gov. Walker wasn't recalled, because I know that in the midst of all the overnight Capitol building campings, the fake doctors notes for teachers to skip work to protest, the impersonators of Kock calling up the governor's office, etc. etc., in the midst of all of that, there were people who were genuinely passionate about the state of Wisconsin and really believes that recalling Walker was what was best for the future of the state. NOT for the future of unions, NOT for the future of the Democratic Party, NOT for the future elections in 2012, but the future of Wis-CAHN-sin.

Now, I disagree that democratcy/USA/etc died with the recall failure, and I also disagree with the recall being best for Wisconsin, but I do feel bad for those that worked tirelessly for its efforts to come up empty handed, to not even have a close election, and to have the celebrity figures and national media basically dump the movement like they were Occupy or something. It's not fun to be yesterday's headline, and that's basically what happened to this recall effort. The Democratic Party and supporting groups and celebrities were suddenly like "Well, bye Wisconsin. We're off to Election 2012 matters that are far more important."

Sad. Not that they lost, but sad that they got abandoned by the groups that probably promised a full backing way back when CNN, the New York Times and others were flying into Madison to film the Capitol campers.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/11/2012, 01:38 PM
Sad that that saddens you. Those folks you are sad for apparently have 0 interest in a healthy economy, or any understanding of how it works.

badger
6/11/2012, 02:01 PM
Sad that that saddens you. Those folks you are sad for apparently have 0 interest in a healthy economy, or any understanding of how it works.

Even us heartless Republicans have to admire the hard work campaigners put in for causes they feel passionately about, even if they are campaigns that we heartless Republicans are staunchly opposed to.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/11/2012, 02:16 PM
Even us heartless Republicans have to admire the hard work campaigners put in for causes they feel passionately about, even if they are campaigns that we heartless Republicans are staunchly opposed to.You have sympathy for the German and Japanese troops in the WWII? I kinda do, but still, they HAD TO be dispatched. The survival of the country, with its laws and individual liberties is at stake, now. I don't think it should be understated or underappreciated. You have the heartless tag on the wrong group.

badger
6/11/2012, 04:41 PM
You have sympathy for the German and Japanese troops in the WWII?

Depends on which troops you are talking about. Are you talking about the SS that tortured the Jews for fun in concentration camps, or the kids that the Nazi army turned to when they ran out of adults to send off to war?

The same can be said here. I have no sympathy for the Michael Moores and the Jesse Jacksons who lost this recall battle. They were pounding their fists for the cameras for sound bites and photo ops. I have sympathy for the average joes from my beloved birth state that were led to believe that this was a battle they could win if they just campaigned a little harder, gave up more of their personal time, perhaps gave a little more of their money to fund the cause.

And the heartless tag was a joke, donchaknow (that's a WisCAHNsin phrase, had it long before Sarah Palin)

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
6/11/2012, 07:45 PM
Depends on which troops you are talking about. Are you talking about the SS that tortured the Jews for fun in concentration camps, or the kids that the Nazi army turned to when they ran out of adults to send off to war?

The same can be said here. I have no sympathy for the Michael Moores and the Jesse Jacksons who lost this recall battle. They were pounding their fists for the cameras for sound bites and photo ops. I have sympathy for the average joes from my beloved birth state that were led to believe that this was a battle they could win if they just campaigned a little harder, gave up more of their personal time, perhaps gave a little more of their money to fund the cause.

And the heartless tag was a joke, donchaknow (that's a WisCAHNsin phrase, had it long before Sarah Palin)Those people, the beloved Joe Sixpack Public Union Members, are still enemies of America, Land of Free and Home of Brave. They may be friends with you on a personal level, but would gladly have their damaging way in politics, and want nothing of shared sacrifice between private and public sector. They are ENTITLED, and the Private Sector IS NOT.

They were not forced into servitude, as were some of the German and Japanese troops. Those public union Democrats in WI who fought Gov. Walker, did so of their own choosing. They may be pleasant on the surface, but they are not friends of the Republic.

KantoSooner
6/12/2012, 08:57 AM
Badger,
Donchanoh? is as Minnesooooooooooooodah as it gets. Go wash down your lutefisk with a Leinenkugel, have a funnel cake and work snow removal in May and stop trying to hitch yer wagon to Little Ole and Big Swede. It isn't workin', donchanoh?
Uffdah! Sometimes ya chust can't tell people nothin'.
(paid my debt to society, did my time in the twin cities.)

badger
6/12/2012, 09:22 AM
lol. I was told that when I was either drunk (not in a long time, since baby and baby feedin') or really tired (now THAT happens a lot these days, hehe) that I sounded more and more northern. Hell, even when I type I can't help but add an "eh" to end of questions sometimes (and I know that Canadian, so don't bother reminding me).

I'd much rather discuss the merits of Wisconsin cheese than Wisconsin politics from here on out on SF.com.

Twin Cities, eh? I remember us driving into the Twin Cities from ruralness and seeing the thick cloud of smog surrounding your tallest buildings. Of course, down here it's probably look like clean air, hehe

KantoSooner
6/12/2012, 09:38 AM
It was a temporary spot for corporate ticket punching in the early 90's; I r an Okie. Nice place if you like, quite literally one morning, -40 degrees with a 55 mile per hour wind out of the NW. Yay. something like a -100 degree wind chill.
You could spit and watch it bounce on the sidewalk.
But I did enjoy having water in the lakes and rivers instead of liquid mud.

Mississippi Sooner
6/12/2012, 09:45 AM
You could spit and watch it bounce on the sidewalk.


Hey, that sounds like a great idea for a new wintertime sport.

TheHumanAlphabet
6/12/2012, 09:57 AM
I was in Michigan over last weekend and I kept hearing the word "rut-beer" for root beer... Hah!! The fine memories of my childhood summers on a farm near Chilton, WI.

soonercruiser
6/12/2012, 06:50 PM
Hey, that sounds like a great idea for a new wintertime sport.

Great idea!
And you could put handles on ice cubes and push them down a side walk where you have put a target or numbers like for shuffleboard!
No....wait.....that would just be another excuse to drink beer! (And, I don't mean rut-beer!)

Memories of Duluth, Minisota and Fitgers beer during my first military assignment.