So, today is Muhammad Ali's birthday. (A dose of anti-Ali elixir.)

[TUSooner]

He's 70, but looks more like 90.

I'll give him full credit for being one of the best fighters of all time, and surely the greatest of his time. But I also have to give him "credit" for a few other things:

disrespecting the USA by refusing to serve;

embracing and popularizing a hateful and perversely racist version of Islam;

making sportsmanship, grace, humility, and respect for opponents old-fashioned and scorned by many in following generations;

giving birth to the culture of "me" in sports. Yes, I give him the credit for stupid touchdown dances, prancing and dancing after routine plays, taunting, showboating, chest-thumping, and other forms of endless, juvenile self-promotion by athletes in all sports.

I also blame him for the glorification and legitimization of "attitude" -- you know the attitude I mean: "I am ME and I am BAD, and it's all about ME. So respect ME, and I don't owe you nothin'."

Before Ali, such manifestations of arrogance were frowned upon. After Ali, they have become mainstream. Maybe it was inevitable without him, but he is the symbol of those things for me.

I hope Mr. Ali will forgive me for not fawning all over him like most other people are doing today. I realize he has done more good things for some people than I probably ever will, and that he has brought hope to many people (even while superficially inflating the pride and anger of others). I know he could probably punch me into another dimension of space and time even at his age.

Most of all, I realize I do not know the real Muhammad Ali and that I lack the qualification and authority to pass judgment on the man. So I hope he enjoys the day and the rest of a long and happy life.

But still, I'll always relish the night Smokin' Joe knocked him down, and I will always resent him for being a trailblazer down a path I wish sports and society had not traveled.



[ :livid: ] And you kids stay off my lawn!! [/ :livid: ]

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Well said! +1

[47straight]

TUS, while I agree that too often we lionize someone for their achievements and overlook their shortcomings (Steve Jobs, etc.), I disagree on a few things.

He refused to serve as an objector, which is a privilege we extend to pacifists and members of various religions. Did Ali refuse to serve in national service, or other capacities, that such objectors are supposed to do in lieu of military service?

While the Nation of Islam does have its faults, it seems unfair to slant him as a member. It seems to have made him a better person.

In terms of a "me" mentality of sports, he was a boxer. That's not a team sport.

[nighttrain12]

But still, I'll always relish the night Smokin' Joe knocked him down, and I will always resent him for being a trailblazer down a path I wish sports and society had not traveled.


Or better yet, when Larry Holmes just beat the living CRAP out of him for 10 straight rounds and he was forced to quit while sitting on his stool. That was a great night in boxing history!

To paraphrase the great Eddie Murphy as the old Muhammad Ali, 'I admire your show Cosell, and I like you style (then losing his train of thought), ol' McDonald had a farm, ee ya, ee ya, oh!'

[TUSooner]

TUS, while I agree that too often we lionize someone for their achievements and overlook their shortcomings (Steve Jobs, etc.), I disagree on a few things.

[1]He refused to serve as an objector, which is a privilege we extend to pacifists and members of various religions. Did Ali refuse to serve in national service, or other capacities, that such objectors are supposed to do in lieu of military service?

[2]While the Nation of Islam does have its faults, it seems unfair to slant him as a member. It seems to have made him a better person.

[3]In terms of a "me" mentality of sports, he was a boxer. That's not a team sport.

Your first and third points crossed my mind and merit consideration, but the Nation of Islam thing... Well, he chose it. And I am not sure it made him "better" -- better than what? Better than if he had become a Christian or a Buddhist or something without an overtly racist agenda?

I criticize the public figure but do not condemn the man.

[OULenexaman]

"His mama name him Clay, I'ma call him Clay.":excitement:

[Pricetag]

Man, you lyin'! You ain't never met Martin Luther the King!

[8timechamps]

I met Ali once in Washington DC. It was about 20 years ago, and he was already mentally absent. I asked for an autograph, because I was starstruck and really wanted an autograph. He would only sign it on a "Nation of Islam" pamphlet. Still have it and will pass it to my kids one day, but I thought that was weird.

That's all I have.

[Frozen Sooner]

He refused to serve as an objector, which is a privilege we extend to pacifists and members of various religions. Did Ali refuse to serve in national service, or other capacities, that such objectors are supposed to do in lieu of military service?

Didn't serve in any other capacity. He applied for Conscientious Objector status and the Draft Board denied the application. The Supreme Court overturned his conviction because the Draft Board did not provide him with any reason why they denied C.O. status.


While the Nation of Islam does have its faults, it seems unfair to slant him as a member. It seems to have made him a better person.

He also left the NoI later and became a mainstream Muslim, if I remember right.


In terms of a "me" mentality of sports, he was a boxer. That's not a team sport.

An excellent point.

I certainly don't hold his refusal to serve in Vietnam against him.

The showboating is something I could find distasteful, but like you said: it's an individual sport, not a team sport.

[picasso]

I've always had a problem with the way he treated Joe Frazier. It went beyond showmanship. Even after Frazier helped him out when he wasn't allowed to fight.

Pretty ****ty there Ali.

[TUSooner]

***
He also left the NoI later and became a mainstream Muslim, if I remember right....


Are you thinking of Malcom X?

[Frozen Sooner]

Are you thinking of Malcom X?

No, though Malcolm X did the same thing.

[Mississippi Sooner]

Ali did convert to Sunni Islam back in the mid-70s, just as Malcolm X did before him. In fact, I think there was sort of a small defection from NOI to Sunni around that time due to a power vacuum in leadership in the NOI. I guess Farrakhan got that all fixed up later.

[olevetonahill]

Didn't serve in any other capacity. He applied for Conscientious Objector status and the Draft Board denied the application. The Supreme Court overturned his conviction because the Draft Board did not provide him with any reason why they denied C.O. status.



He also left the NoI later and became a mainstream Muslim, if I remember right.



An excellent point.

I certainly don't hold his refusal to serve in Vietnam against him.

The showboating is something I could find distasteful, but like you said: it's an individual sport, not a team sport.

Why? he broke the Law.

[Lott's Bandana]

His relationship with Cosell is one of the great sports memories of my childhood. Even with all his flaws, I loved the man and was crushed when Ken Norton broke his jaw. I also adored Reggie Jackson, for probably the same reasons. I think I respected these black athletes because they weren't all "talk" about their challenges, sporting or otherwise...they actually backed up their bravado with their performances.

I agree that Ali treated Frazier terribly. What a revelation to find out what a gentleman Joe turned seemed to be...even after all the abuse.

[stoopified]

HAPPY 70TH

[8timechamps]

Why? he broke the Law.

I am questioning that as well. Maybe it's because I served, but I have a problem with any citizen that dodged the draft. I don't have any issue with any person that didn't serve outside of the draft era, but if your country asked you serve, and you avoided it (yet still reaped the benefits of your nations freedom), that's an issue. Not to get too political because I don't want this to be in the political forum, but I can't make sense of that.

[Wishboned]

Do you consider John Wayne in the same way? He got a family deferment for WWII, but it was mostly a career decision. A career that he built on playing the hero, when in real life he avoided his duty.

[Frozen Sooner]

Why? he broke the Law.


I am questioning that as well. Maybe it's because I served, but I have a problem with any citizen that dodged the draft. I don't have any issue with any person that didn't serve outside of the draft era, but if your country asked you serve, and you avoided it (yet still reaped the benefits of your nations freedom), that's an issue. Not to get too political because I don't want this to be in the political forum, but I can't make sense of that.

We don't know that he broke the law. The draft board denied him conscientious objector status, but failed to state on what grounds. The Supreme Court overturned the conviction as a result. So far of what I know of his religious beliefs, his status as a conscientious objector was genuine.

That's without going into the relative merits and morality of a draft.