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okie52
1/11/2012, 05:34 PM
PARIS — It wasn't yet 8 a.m. when police knocked on Monique Pouille's door, searched her home and took her away — all because she recharged cell phones for illegal migrants.

The 59-year-old volunteer with several groups in the Calais region of northern France was put behind bars and interrogated for three hours before being freed.

The French government forbids aiding illegal migrants and sets quotas for arrests of those who do as it tries to control growing clandestine immigration. This year's target: 5,000 arrests.

Authorities contend the measure is aimed at those who profit financially from those in France illegally. However, the recent episode exemplifies what humanitarian associations and others contend is a concerted effort to harass volunteers who provide a lifeline, or a simple kindness, to illegal aliens in a new dimension of the crackdown on illegal immigration.

"I think the idea is to send out a strong message, 'Watch out, danger,' and that is scandalous," said Pouille's lawyer, Bruno Dubout, noting other cases in which volunteer workers have been questioned by police, or charged.

Humanitarian associations plan demonstrations in front of court houses in major cities around France on April 8 to protest what they say is the "crime of solidarity."

The associations cite an article in the code governing foreigners' right to remain in France that forbids anyone from facilitating or trying to facilitate "the entry, movement or irregular (illegal) stay of a foreigner in France." Doing so is punishable by up to five years in prison and a 30,000-euro fine. But few, if any, activists like Pouille are charged with a crime and spend significant time in prison.


Quota for arrests
An addendum on immigration in the 2009 Finance Law sets a quota for arrests of those who "assist" illegal aliens: 5,000 in 2009, 5,500 in 2011.

The Immigration Ministry, created when President Nicolas Sarkozy took office in 2007, proudly makes public its yearly expulsion quota — the goal of 26,000 expulsions in 2008 went far beyond to 29,796 — but, until now, there had been no talk of quotas for those who help illegals.

Immigration Minister Eric Besson says the measure is "indispensable" for combating smugglers who profit from migrants — a priority of the center-right government priority.

"Is patriotism something you like only when it is brandished by Barack Obama?" Besson asked opposition lawmakers last week in the lower house as Socialists prepared a measure to modify the wording of the article on assistance. It is to be debated April 30.


"In France today there is a real climate of intimidation against those who help" illegal aliens, Catherine Coutelle, a Socialist lawmaker behind the bid to modify the law, said by telephone.

She said the move to change the law was partly inspired by a movie out this month in France, "Welcome," the story of a Calais swimming instructor who teaches an illegal alien how to swim so he can cross the Channel to Britain.

Up to 1,800 migrants hoping to sneak into Britain in trucks can be found at any one time in the Calais region, gathered in makeshift camps since the leveling of a Red Cross shelter in Sangatte in 2002. Volunteers like Monique Pouille try to ease their suffering.

Volunteers 'tracked'
"We feel that volunteers are being surveyed, tracked ... for insignificant reasons" to discourage working with illegal aliens, said the Rev. Jean-Pierre Boutoille, a Catholic priest who has long helped migrants in Calais.

Police finally paid a visit to her house Feb. 25. She told the association she works with, Terre d'errance (Land of Roaming), that "they knew a lot about me and the association." No charges were filed. She could not be reached for an interview.

Jean-Claude Lenoir, a middle school teacher in Calais and vice president of the association Salam, was arrested in November as police, with dogs and a helicopter, rounded up migrants. He appeared in court Feb. 25 in nearby Boulogne-sur-Mer for alleged verbal abuse of police — which he denies — but the proceedings were postponed until June.

Some 10 days ago, a young woman driving two migrants to a hospital, wearing a vest identifying her as a Salam volunteer, was detained for four hours, Lenoir said, adding "there is pressure, harassment."

At the southern end of France, in the Mediterranean port city of Marseille, police descended on an Emmaus community Feb. 17, in search of illegal aliens, a day after the arrest of one man without papers who had been given lodging there. An official from the organization was held six hours for questioning, Emmaus said. No charges were filed.

Teddy Roudaut, communications officer for Emmaus France, said there is no legal definition for someone who assists those without papers, so the law can be applied "to someone who serves soup or ... gives lodging to someone."

He insisted that Emmaus, an international organization, does not defend smugglers "but the law is so fuzzy it can apply to us."

There is no global count of the number of volunteers around France who have been detained by police, but said Roudaut of Emmaus, "We're obviously afraid that we're becoming a reservoir for (the Immigration Ministry's) quota."

yermom
1/11/2012, 07:06 PM
what's that? you are injured? could i see some ID before i drive you to the hospital?

okie52
1/11/2012, 07:43 PM
what's that? you are injured? could i see some ID before i drive you to the hospital?

Can hospital workers help? Probably better to leave him on the side of the road.

SicEmBaylor
1/11/2012, 08:03 PM
what's that? you are injured? could i see some ID before i drive you to the hospital?

I'm okay with this. I think France has the right idea. If you so much as give an illegal the time of day then you ought to suffer consequences on a truly unimaginable scale. It's draconian, but it's ultimately the only way you're going to serious crack down on the Mexican plague.

Curly Bill
1/12/2012, 09:56 AM
Finally the French are doing something right.

bigfatjerk
1/12/2012, 10:13 AM
The French have had screwed up immigration issues for a long time. Honestly I don't see illegal immigration as a bad thing if you don't have welfare. Or you would have to make a law where illegals cannot be eligible for welfare in any possible way.

Jacie
1/12/2012, 10:16 AM
No more "ooh la la" . . .

KantoSooner
1/12/2012, 10:22 AM
While I agree with the French in principle on this one, a much simpler method is available: make it impossible to get work. You do this two ways:

1. Workplace inspections. You'd need procedures, probable cause, yadda yadda, because you don't want some beetle browed government workers taking this as carte blanche to go rousting workplaces. And most government workers are just socialist/communist enough to enjoy the prospect of disrupting for-profit endeavours.

2. Lock up the managers and owners who hire illegals and start fining them and forfeiting their personal belongings. How many roofing contractors would risk THEIR house to hire some 'off the books' Messicans? How many South Texas cotton farmers would look the other way while their managers hired illegals if it meant 'buhbye' to the big house and six months in an orange jump suit pickinig up trash beside the highway?

This stuff isn't complicated and you don't need to focus on some granny giving a thirsty man a glass of water on a hot day.

sooner_born_1960
1/12/2012, 10:25 AM
There is probably a joke somewhere in there, about how France has a history of rolling out the red carpet for illegal German immigration.

KantoSooner
1/12/2012, 12:05 PM
...or English, Viking, Spanish, Dutch, Italian...and the list goes on.

they're about overdue to lose track of their national sovereignty and having to ask the Anglo-Saxon nations to get their flashlights and come help look for it.

Bourbon St Sooner
1/12/2012, 01:53 PM
If our illegals were coming from North Africa I would probably favor more Draconian measures as well.

pphilfran
1/12/2012, 05:33 PM
While I agree with the French in principle on this one, a much simpler method is available: make it impossible to get work. You do this two ways:

1. Workplace inspections. You'd need procedures, probable cause, yadda yadda, because you don't want some beetle browed government workers taking this as carte blanche to go rousting workplaces. And most government workers are just socialist/communist enough to enjoy the prospect of disrupting for-profit endeavours.

2. Lock up the managers and owners who hire illegals and start fining them and forfeiting their personal belongings. How many roofing contractors would risk THEIR house to hire some 'off the books' Messicans? How many South Texas cotton farmers would look the other way while their managers hired illegals if it meant 'buhbye' to the big house and six months in an orange jump suit pickinig up trash beside the highway?

This stuff isn't complicated and you don't need to focus on some granny giving a thirsty man a glass of water on a hot day.

The are a couple of million firms that have more than 5 employees...how do you propose we effectively audit that number of firms?

I understand that auditing must be part of the plan...it is complicated due to size of the project...

http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html

KantoSooner
1/12/2012, 05:55 PM
I'd use Everify and then you're left with spot checks. No way you can visit every employer. But you can make the consequences bad enough that people won't risk it.

You'd probably kiss a pretty woman even if you thought she might have a cold.

You wouldn't sleep with a woman, no matter how hot, if you thought she had AIDS.

It's not always the odds, sometimes it's the consequences.

SicEmBaylor
1/12/2012, 06:15 PM
You wouldn't sleep with a woman, no matter how hot, if you thought she had AIDS.


Eh...some are more desperate than others.

TheHumanAlphabet
1/12/2012, 08:17 PM
Finally the French are doing something right.

+1

SanJoaquinSooner
1/12/2012, 11:13 PM
The phrase "12 million illegal" actually refers to the number of copyright violations committed by Okie in copying and pasting articles about illegal immigration.

Jesus Christ, Okie. Two separate threads about illegal immigration in France, within 30 minutes of each other? You really needed two separate threads about France? Really?


Here is where all of you are off-base: Government isn't the solution, it's the problem. "Let's see, how can we inhibit economic activity to solve our problems?" That's what government does. Would a newly created Stasi help grow the economy?


For example, between the bracero program and the 1987 immigration reform bill, 25 million Mexicans came to the U.S. illegally and 23 million returned to Mexico, leaving 2 million or so who received amnesty and a green card. As part of the deal, employers would have to verify eligibility to work by completing a government created I-9 employment verification form. Before 1987, employers couldn't legally require an employee to "prove" eligibility. Surely this would solve the "problem." Gov't is so good at solving problems.

What did it do? It merely embedded corruption into the fabric. Eight years later, in 2005, the head of Social Security Admin estimated that 2/3 of those working illegally were in payroll systems that paid FICA taxes. ... Just like Prohibition corrupted police departments, politicians, and everyday, hard-working folks, prohibition of workers without I-9 verification corrupted the workplace.

If you gotta have a social security number and a ID to work then that's what they went and got.

Kanto, you do realize, don't you, that e-verify does not verify anyone's identity.

The solution is in the system of free enterprise. Get government out of it. Have private companies set up "red-card" centers to process worker visas and let employers decide who the best qualified are. Gov't bureaucrats should be good public servants and get out of the way. And start funding their own damned pensions.

Okie, really, instead of putting all your energy into protecting welfare benefits from illegal aliens, you should devote it to getting rid of the welfare state.

Y'all need to quit blaming hard-working migrants for plight of unemployed non-workers who lay on the couch and eat a package of oreos each day while watching TV. Thank God for remote controls. The government doesn't owe anyone a job!


Migrant workers dont take jobs from lower class Americans, they CREATE jobs for middle class jobs for Americans. Economic consequences are dynamic, not static. Increasing efficiency of labor creates opportunities for businesses to expand and for new businesses to be created.

And Sic em, you're a Ron Paul "work-in-progress". The guy is all about liberty, not establishing a Stasi. Let's see, maybe we need full-time officers posted at all major businesses and one tenant in every apartment building designated as a watchdog reporting to an area representative of the Volkspolizei, er, Sheriff Joe. And then we need informants who watch every relative or friend who stay the night at another's place. You never know, they may be illegal.

SCOUT
1/12/2012, 11:36 PM
I love the argument you are making San. The illegals kept breaking the laws we put in place to stop them so we should stop trying to stop them.

E-Verify does a lot more to validate identity than the I-9. It isn't perfect but it is a step in the right direction.

SanJoaquinSooner
1/13/2012, 12:34 AM
I love the argument you are making San. The illegals kept breaking the laws we put in place to stop them so we should stop trying to stop them.

E-Verify does a lot more to validate identity than the I-9. It isn't perfect but it is a step in the right direction.

That's not the argument I'm making. We should stop trying to make it illegal to work because a free market of labor is a good thing whereas a black market of labor embedds corruption into the fabric of society.

okie52
1/13/2012, 01:03 AM
Haha San Juan-you'd be in jail in France.

Yep I thought it would be good to show how illegals are viewed with disdain worldwide....even in liberal France (and most of Europe for that matter). This panacea of illegal immigration you preach is just so much hogwash as seen by countries that are suffering from it now in Europe.

Everify alone won't cure illegal immigration but along with punishing employers, sanctuary cities, removing illegals benefits, schooling, medical, etc...the old USA won't look near as inviting now will it? And if we took it to where France is now even enablers like you might think twice before aiding and abetting these invaders.

SanJoaquinSooner
1/13/2012, 01:44 AM
Haha San Juan-you'd be in jail in France.

Yep I thought it would be good to show how illegals are viewed with disdain worldwide....even in liberal France (and most of Europe for that matter). This panacea of illegal immigration you preach.

I didn't know it's against the law in France to advocate changing visa laws. But defenders of cradle-to-grave welfare states are rarely free-market libertarians.

And there you go again, misrepresenting my views. I'm against illegal immigration.

okie52
1/13/2012, 01:57 AM
Teaching classes for illegals might not be viewed so favorably in France.

Hell, you're for no immigration laws, period. If we had 100,000,000 Mexicans working here it would be fine by you. Are you for removing all benefits available for illegals such as education, healthcare, welfare, birthright citizenship, etc...if we granted them temporary visas?

olevetonahill
1/13/2012, 02:06 AM
That's not the argument I'm making. We should stop trying to make it illegal to work because a free market of labor is a good thing whereas a black market of labor embedds corruption into the fabric of society.

You tell em jaun

pphilfran
1/13/2012, 08:39 AM
I'd use Everify and then you're left with spot checks. No way you can visit every employer. But you can make the consequences bad enough that people won't risk it.

You'd probably kiss a pretty woman even if you thought she might have a cold.

You wouldn't sleep with a woman, no matter how hot, if you thought she had AIDS.

It's not always the odds, sometimes it's the consequences.

Without auditing at random intervals all of the laws in the world won't stop them from hiring illegals...

That is the problem with most of our regulations....it all looks good on paper but when it comes time to initiate the program it falls on it's face due to poor auditing and and followup ...

Everything was in place to stop Madoff but it took years due to inadequate auditing...
The BP oil spill was significantly worse due to inadequate auditing...
People drive drunk knowing the severe consequences for their actions...

Like I said it is a needed part of the system but it is not nearly as effective or simple as you make it...

SanJoaquinSooner
1/13/2012, 09:33 AM
Teaching classes for illegals might not be viewed so favorably in France.

Hell, you're for no immigration laws, period. If we had 100,000,000 Mexicans working here it would be fine by you. Are you for removing all benefits available for illegals such as education, healthcare, welfare, birthright citizenship, etc...if we granted them temporary visas?

I work for a private, non-profit -- not USCIS. It's ridiculous to expect me to check for legal presence.

Your industry is the worst, Okie! Do your retailers (gasoline stations) check for legal presence when they sell gasoline? No. Do they check to see if the driver is licensed? No. Do they check to see if the car is properly insured? No. Do they check to see if the auto registration is expired? No. Do they check to see if the driver is under the influence of alcohol or drugs? No.

Must be your industry's fault that 40,000 people each year are killed in auto accidents.

I guess Gov't bureaucrats need to crack down on the oil industry.

KantoSooner
1/13/2012, 09:40 AM
San, I think we're essentially on the same page here. We don't audit everyone's taxes, but most people pay. That's about the level of compliance you can expect on hiring illegals. You balance the burden of some sort of rational rules/enforecment and t hen get on down the road.
We've got a 2,000 mile border with these folks, there's going to be some level of interaction, no matter how much the 'Murca Firsters might prefer to deny it.

bigfatjerk
1/13/2012, 10:16 AM
The problem with immigration isn't really an immigration problem it's a welfare problem.

okie52
1/13/2012, 10:23 AM
I work for a private, non-profit -- not USCIS. It's ridiculous to expect me to check for legal presence.

Your industry is the worst, Okie! Do your retailers (gasoline stations) check for legal presence when they sell gasoline? No. Do they check to see if the driver is licensed? No. Do they check to see if the car is properly insured? No. Do they check to see if the auto registration is expired? No. Do they check to see if the driver is under the influence of alcohol or drugs? No.

Must be your industry's fault that 40,000 people each year are killed in auto accidents.

I guess Gov't bureaucrats need to crack down on the oil industry.

Teaching a class for "migrant workers" is the same as selling gasoline? Hahahaha.

Midtowner
1/13/2012, 10:36 AM
Without auditing at random intervals all of the laws in the world won't stop them from hiring illegals...

That is the problem with most of our regulations....it all looks good on paper but when it comes time to initiate the program it falls on it's face due to poor auditing and and followup ...

Everything was in place to stop Madoff but it took years due to inadequate auditing...
The BP oil spill was significantly worse due to inadequate auditing...
People drive drunk knowing the severe consequences for their actions...

Like I said it is a needed part of the system but it is not nearly as effective or simple as you make it...

It was one of the big aims of the Bush White House to defund a lot of regulatory agencies to the point where they couldn't do their job. Heck, in many SEC legal offices, they didn't even have working copiers. They had to take copy jobs to Kinko's. How the hell do we expect those folks to go toe-to-toe with Wall Street law firms, the highest paid lawyers in the world?

It's not much different elsewhere. I don't blame the 'pubs for this, it just happened on their watch. Agencies have been starved, and now compliance is crap. We can't allow the industries to police themselves or we're going to have another Deep Water Horizon sort of incident.

As for migrant workers, E-Verify sounds just fine. We also shouldn't be in the business of paying welfare benefits to illegals. Just take their kids into state custody if they come here illegally with no plan to care for their kids. There are lots of folks wanting to adopt.

pphilfran
1/13/2012, 01:25 PM
It was one of the big aims of the Bush White House to defund a lot of regulatory agencies to the point where they couldn't do their job. Heck, in many SEC legal offices, they didn't even have working copiers. They had to take copy jobs to Kinko's. How the hell do we expect those folks to go toe-to-toe with Wall Street law firms, the highest paid lawyers in the world?

It's not much different elsewhere. I don't blame the 'pubs for this, it just happened on their watch. Agencies have been starved, and now compliance is crap. We can't allow the industries to police themselves or we're going to have another Deep Water Horizon sort of incident.

As for migrant workers, E-Verify sounds just fine. We also shouldn't be in the business of paying welfare benefits to illegals. Just take their kids into state custody if they come here illegally with no plan to care for their kids. There are lots of folks wanting to adopt.

In many cases the fed passed much of the auditing on to the producer...DOT testing for tires is done in house...there are standards to be tested to but there are few, if any, in house audits by DOT...if there is a problem in the field they look at the producers data during the investigation...no way in hell they know if the data is accurate or even manufactured...

Dale Ellis
1/13/2012, 02:45 PM
what's that? you are injured? could i see some ID before i drive you to the hospital?

Charging cell phones for illegals or helping someone laying injured on the road....(making weighing motion with my hands).........yea, those are the exact same thing. You don't want to get left of the road to die in France, don't sneak into France illegally, problem solved.

cccasooner2
1/13/2012, 03:43 PM
I take back all the bad things I've ever said about France. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Dale Ellis
1/13/2012, 04:16 PM
I wish some of the libs on this site had as much sympathy and empathy for the legal citizens of a country as they do for the people who sneak into said countries illegally.
Hell I work pay taxes etc, and the libs on this site want to suck me dry, yet Juan Mexicallieshmoe, sneaks across the boarder illegally and he gets all the handouts. I know, "what are we supposed to do, let him die in the streets?" Well if we did I can promise you their would be a lot fewer of them trying to sneak into the country.

Midtowner
1/13/2012, 04:56 PM
In many cases the fed passed much of the auditing on to the producer...DOT testing for tires is done in house...there are standards to be tested to but there are few, if any, in house audits by DOT...if there is a problem in the field they look at the producers data during the investigation...no way in hell they know if the data is accurate or even manufactured...

That's probably a big problem in the tire biz, particularly with brands like Cooper. A young man in my fraternity chapter was killed when his tire failed a few years ago. I've heard some of the stuff turned up in research and discovery by his family's attorneys. Very disturbing stuff about that particular brand...

But that's the problem--when you leave for-profit entities to self-police, they're going to make a business decision. If it costs less to cheat and risk getting caught than it does to simply comply, the cheat and risk getting caught option will win every single time. That's the biggest problem with E-Verify. Cheaters will continue to cheat unless there's some real oversight, the cheaters will just adapt and we'll have done nothing more than employ an expensive fig leaf.

pphilfran
1/13/2012, 05:08 PM
That's probably a big problem in the tire biz, particularly with brands like Cooper. A young man in my fraternity chapter was killed when his tire failed a few years ago. I've heard some of the stuff turned up in research and discovery by his family's attorneys. Very disturbing stuff about that particular brand...

But that's the problem--when you leave for-profit entities to self-police, they're going to make a business decision. If it costs less to cheat and risk getting caught than it does to simply comply, the cheat and risk getting caught option will win every single time. That's the biggest problem with E-Verify. Cheaters will continue to cheat unless there's some real oversight, the cheaters will just adapt and we'll have done nothing more than employ an expensive fig leaf.

One of the groups I managed did competitor analysis on tires...Cooper was always near the bottom...ugly on the inside...

KantoSooner
1/13/2012, 05:43 PM
Everify is easy and cheap. It is not perfect, but adds a level of complication to living illegally in this country. Combine that with demanding some form of gov issue picture ID and you still won't catch all......but you'll have a decent start....and you can do it now at virtually no additional cost.

I don't get why we don't roll out simple, cheap and non-intrusive measures while we are arguing over the big, complex and expensive stuff with serious human rights and civil liberties concerns.

Seems like we as a people really don't want to get serious about this.

okie52
1/13/2012, 05:47 PM
Thats the problem. The people want to get serious about illegal immigration...the government and businesses don't.

pphilfran
1/13/2012, 06:16 PM
Everify is easy and cheap. It is not perfect, but adds a level of complication to living illegally in this country. Combine that with demanding some form of gov issue picture ID and you still won't catch all......but you'll have a decent start....and you can do it now at virtually no additional cost.

I don't get why we don't roll out simple, cheap and non-intrusive measures while we are arguing over the big, complex and expensive stuff with serious human rights and civil liberties concerns.

Seems like we as a people really don't want to get serious about this.

Our leadership does not do that on any other issue why should we think this should be any different?

KantoSooner
1/14/2012, 12:38 PM
Point well taken. Maybe because I'm older now and don't have enough time/energy left to devote to perfection, but getting something/anything done in the name of 'good enough' right now vs. not doing jack**** while you wrestle around on the floor trying for 'perfect' has an increasing attraction.
Screw it. If it doesn't work, we can change it. Minor and temporary embarassment at most. And we spend enough time embarrassed as it is, a little more won't hurt.

bigfatjerk
1/14/2012, 01:51 PM
Thats the problem. The people want to get serious about illegal immigration...the government and businesses don't.

Government has too much power involved to get out of the way and make the illegal immigration issue a moot point. I wouldn't mind having the use of an army at the border since we have the drug war, so we can basically use a large force to basically end the war on drugs and monitor what's coming across. But the USA is one of the few countries in the world that can probably be fine if it adds in population. Everywhere else in the world would love to have the population density we have in this country overall.

okie52
1/14/2012, 03:57 PM
Government has too much power involved to get out of the way and make the illegal immigration issue a moot point. I wouldn't mind having the use of an army at the border since we have the drug war, so we can basically use a large force to basically end the war on drugs and monitor what's coming across. But the USA is one of the few countries in the world that can probably be fine if it adds in population. Everywhere else in the world would love to have the population density we have in this country overall.

Bring the boys home and guard the border...I'd love it. Now you're going to get San Joaqin all upset with that kind of talk though.

The Russkies would be well below us as would the Canadians in pop density.

I'd still like us to get to 150,000,000 or no more than 200,000,000.

yermom
1/14/2012, 04:52 PM
Charging cell phones for illegals or helping someone laying injured on the road....(making weighing motion with my hands).........yea, those are the exact same thing. You don't want to get left of the road to die in France, don't sneak into France illegally, problem solved.

i understand that your blind hatred for illegals makes it hard to pay attention when you read, so i'll quote the part i was referencing:


Some 10 days ago, a young woman driving two migrants to a hospital, wearing a vest identifying her as a Salam volunteer, was detained for four hours, Lenoir said, adding "there is pressure, harassment."


should employers verify immigration status? yes. should a citizen have to worry who they driving to the hospital? no.

sappstuf
1/14/2012, 10:51 PM
Bring the boys home and guard the border...I'd love it. Now you're going to get San Joaqin all upset with that kind of talk though.

The Russkies would be well below us as would the Canadians in pop density.

I'd still like us to get to 150,000,000 or no more than 200,000,000.

I want to occupy someplace nice like the Netherlands before we come back home.. ;)

Dale Ellis
1/15/2012, 03:19 PM
i understand that your blind hatred for illegals makes it hard to pay attention when you read, so i'll quote the part i was referencing:


I never said it should be a crime to help an illegal immigrant, I simply said:

You don't want to get left of the road to die in France, don't sneak into France illegally, problem solved.

Why do you people continue to put words in my mouth? My statement is 1000% accurate, if you don't want to be left on the road to die, in France, don't sneak into France illegally. I thought that's what the topic of this thread was all about.

SouthCarolinaSooner
1/16/2012, 12:56 AM
Government has too much power involved to get out of the way and make the illegal immigration issue a moot point. I wouldn't mind having the use of an army at the border since we have the drug war, so we can basically use a large force to basically end the war on drugs and monitor what's coming across. But the USA is one of the few countries in the world that can probably be fine if it adds in population. Everywhere else in the world would love to have the population density we have in this country overall.
Or we could de-fund organized crime and end the drug war by ending Prohibition, just like last time. Agree with the remainder of your post.




The Russkies would be well below us as would the Canadians in pop density.

I'd still like us to get to 150,000,000 or no more than 200,000,000.
I can't decide if this is hilarious or sick, thankfully it doesn't matter. Your fantasies of systematic, nationwide executions of enough liberals to cut the population down to your dream size would only be possible in Texas.

okie52
1/16/2012, 01:06 AM
No need to execute libs...actually a lot more libs than conservatives I would guess support reduced populations so you should be safe. Although I am a bit surprised you feel comfortable in South Carolina knowing how they feel about libs there.

You do understand how reduced birth rates work don't you? You've always seemed to struggle with that concept.

SCOUT
1/16/2012, 01:21 AM
I would like to hear the process by which we would reduce the population by 100,000,000. Are you volunteering to get it started?

SouthCarolinaSooner
1/16/2012, 01:22 AM
You do understand how reduced birth rates work don't you? You've always seemed to struggle with that concept.
I understand quite well, but I can also understand population projections.

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/uploadedImages/News/Chicago/Images/Urban/US%20Population%20Projections.jpg

Yet most importantly I value liberty, ergo the government should have absolutely no authority to reduce birth rates by any method.

okie52
1/16/2012, 02:14 AM
Government doesn't have to subsidize births either.

Education will be the ultimate key and hopefully the public will comprehend more is not better. Europe belatedly caught on and has gotten down to close to a zero growth birthrate. Unfortunately for them most countries like England, france, and Germany are already many times our population density. The good news for the US is that our birthrates have slowed in most races except for Hispanics. That and of course illegal immigration. Otherwise we might be holding steady or even reducing our population.

KantoSooner
1/16/2012, 11:09 AM
The US native born population has been at or below replacement rate for some time now. Our only growth has been through emigration. In this case, legal emigration has been enough to fuel growth, illegal has simply added to that trend.
Interestingly, Mexico is now approaching a 'no-growth' level of births per woman. As is much of Latin America.
Big growth is now only prevalent in Africa and the Islamic arc. Illiteracy and 'traditional values' seem to be the most typical correlation to high birth rates.