Think back...When Mike Stoops was our DC

[MamaMia]

what is your opinion about how we were defending against the pass on a consistent basis? Thats one of my biggest concerns.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Alright mama..First name off all the great passing offenses in the big 12 when Mike was coaching..

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The problem that you have when you talk about MS's pass defenses is that the level of talent gets in the way. You have 2 Thorpe award winners and 2 Butkus winners that were in that shell. Honestly, the only real way to evaluate now versus then is to use 1999 as your baseline when the corners weren't very good.

Our pass efficiency defense in 99 was ranked 46 out of 114 teams.

Passing offenses faced

#17 Texas (L)
#18 Colorado (L)
#34 Notre Dame (L)
#43 aTm (W)

And yes, I'd say that right now our secondary talent is bizarrely similar to how it was in 1999. The only difference is that our "pee wee" woods plays free safety, not corner.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Texas Tech went from averaging 250 passing yards per game against the Sooners when Mike Stoops was at Oklahoma to 350 passing yards per game since Brent Vulnerables took over. And Texas Tech was already performing well offensively at that time, so it's not merely a factor of them getting even better over the years.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

I think overall game-planning is a bigger factor than specifically pass defense. And for the most part, Brent Vulnerables fails on both accounts on way too many occasions. Mike Stoops also brought things to the table on both offense and special teams in terms of things that can be exploited. That's something that has never been demonstrated from Brent Vulnerables, at least publicly noticeable.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Clarifying my talent statement here: I just think there was more talent in the secondary across the board from 2000-2004 than there is now. Polamalu, TGRW, Terrence Newman, Sean Taylor, Ed Reed, Philip Buchanan were all contemporaries. Heck even Champ Bailey was 1999.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Mike Stoops also brought things to the table on both offense and special teams in terms of things that can be exploited. That's something that has never been demonstrated from Brent Vulnerables, at least publicly noticeable.

I have no idea what this means. If you spent 1/2 the amount of time making your sentences coherent as you did in coming up with 3rd grade playground names, it would help all of us on this board out.

[NormanPride]

Snap...

[thecrimsoncrusader]

I have no idea what this means. If you spent 1/2 the amount of time making your sentences coherent as you did in coming up with 3rd grade playground names, it would help all of us on this board out.

If you can't comprehend that, you're not very bright. Or let me put it another way, I'm the person that knows what he is talking about; you're that other person.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Texas Tech went from averaging 250 passing yards per game against the Sooners when Mike Stoops was at Oklahoma to 350 passing yards per game since Brent Vulnerables took over. And Texas Tech was already performing well offensively at that time, so it's not merely a factor of them getting even better over the years.

So the skill level of Texas Tech increasing over the years has nothing to do with that?

[NormanPride]

Wasn't that when they got Welker and Crabby? And once those guys left they started being bad again?

[SoonerTerry]

Alright mama..First name off all the great passing offenses in the big 12 when Mike was coaching..

^this^

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

If you can't comprehend that, you're not very bright. Or let me put it another way, I'm the person that knows what he is talking about; you're that other person.

So now you've just decided that time isn't to be spent clarifying and explaining what you meant. You are just going to spend ALL your time on 3rd grade playground insults. The fact that you went Pee Wee Herman on this one does give you some points for originality though.

[FaninAma]

Texas Tech went from averaging 250 passing yards per game against the Sooners when Mike Stoops was at Oklahoma to 350 passing yards per game since Brent Vulnerables took over. And Texas Tech was already performing well offensively at that time, so it's not merely a factor of them getting even better over the years.

Are you saying TT under Leach only threw for 250 a game. I call bull crap on that. Also Texas under applewhite, KSU, And Missouri were good passing teams. In fact the league as whole had more balanced offenses then which in my opinion are more difficult to defend and stop than the current offenses used by most Big 12-2-1-1+2 teams.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Wasn't that when they got Welker and Crabby? And once those guys left they started being bad again?

Welker (2000-3) was before Crabtree (2006-8), the major difference was what they had in the other receiver slots.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

No guys, let's just recreate 2000 all over again..Hire back the same coaches and it will all be the same...And also, remember that old high school girlfriend? if you would have just stayed with her, you would be a lot happier, so you should look her back up again...I bet she is still skinny and hawt.

[SoonerTerry]

If you can't comprehend that, you're not very bright. Or let me put it another way, I'm the person that knows what he is talking about; you're that other person.

The funny thing about this is that it was edited.

[NormanPride]

I couldn't remember when Welker was, thanks. I thought he was 02-05.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Are you saying TT under Leach only threw for 250 a game. I call bull crap on that. Also Texas under applewhite, KSU, And Missouri were good passing teams. In fact the league as whole had more balanced offense then which in my opinion are more difficult to defend and stop than the current offenses used by most Big 12-2-1-1+2 teams.

Hmm..I'm seeing Missouri as the 72nd ranked passing team and KState at almost 60th...Texas could wing the ball around but they couldn't decide on a quarterback...

[rock on sooner]

If you can't comprehend that, you're not very bright. Or let me put it another way, I'm the person that knows what he is talking about; you're that other person. Wow, did you hurt your arm
patting yourself on the back?

[thecrimsoncrusader]

So the skill level of Texas Tech increasing over the years has nothing to do with that?

Not by 100+ passing yards per game and Texas Tech was putting up big time numbers against everyone but Oklahoma until Brent Vulnerables took over. Things were wrong right out of the gate in the 2004 season when Oklahoma's corners' were lined up 12 to 15 yards off the LOS in the Bowling Green game and the Sooners haven't looked back since and have been worse because of it. OU went from giving up 230 passing yards against Texas Tech to 369 passing yards in just one year and that went far beyond just losing some great personnel from the 2003 squad. There was a schematic and philosophical change under Brent Vulnerables and ultimately, a schematic and philosophical failure.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

There was a schematic and philosophical change under Brent Vulnerables and ultimately, a schematic and philosophical failure.

Great information..Tell me what the schematic and philosophical changes were.

[sooner59]

After seeing OU getting torched for 40+ points so many times in the past several years, I'm game for anything that will shake it up. I just don't trust the defense anymore. I watch OU games with a feeling in my stomach that we are always just about to give up a huge play. I say bring him in. If it doesn't work. Oh well, it was a nice try. If it does work, everybody will shut up and be happy (except for the 80% of our fanbase that are just d-bags on a daily basis). Sorry if I don't get all angry that we were disappointing on defense this year and something might actually be done about it. I mean, I'm sure after struggling at the great program of Arizona, Mike probably doesn't have any desire to win. I like his fire, if he adds nothing more to the program than that alone.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I know if he does come back and it doesn't work out, I won't be one of those fans that gloat in his failure and enjoy a "I told you so" attitude on message boards..

[sooner59]

I know if he does come back and it doesn't work out, I won't be one of those fans that gloat in his failure and enjoy a "I told you so" attitude on message boards..

I knew that already. But you are one of the few who don't carry that attitude.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Texas Tech's passing yards from 2000 to 2003 against Oklahoma's defense under Mike Stoops:

2000: 248
2001: 254
2002: 224
2003: 230

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Texas Tech went from averaging 250 passing yards per game against the Sooners when Mike Stoops was at Oklahoma to 350 passing yards per game since Brent Vulnerables took over. And Texas Tech was already performing well offensively at that time, so it's not merely a factor of them getting even better over the years.

I would just like to point out that these stats are wrong. The number for BV is at 325/game with this year's total skewing it up from 300. The 350 number is what we've been giving up in Lubbock.

Year Passing Yards Points Rushing
2004 369 13 65
2005 232 23 109
2006 250 24 31
2007 420 34 53
2008 361 21 88
2009 388 41 188
2010 136 7 182
2011 452 41 145

[NormanPride]

Then Derrick Strait left.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

And by then, Leach's teams were full of Leach's recruits..

[NormanPride]

Year Passing Yards Points Rushing
2009 388 41 188
2011 452 41 145

http://arch.413chan.net/Jesus_Christ_how_horrifying-(n1293125748065).jpg

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Great information..Tell me what the schematic and philosophical changes were.

Going to smaller and faster middle linebackers, soft coverage by the cornerbacks, less blitzing by the nickelback, over complicating the defense to the point of causing confusion for the Sooner defensive personnel. Just ask Donta, Brodney or Antonio on the confusion part.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Great information..Tell me what the schematic and philosophical changes were.

This is about the only thing that he's said that is correct. Of course, everyone conveniently forgets WHY we had to do them.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Good answer....How many great passing offenses were in the big 12 back then? How many spread offenses?

[thecrimsoncrusader]

I would just like to point out that these stats are wrong. The number for BV is at 325/game with this year's total skewing it up from 300. The 350 number is what we've been giving up in Lubbock.

Year Passing Yards Points Rushing
2004 369 13 65
2005 232 23 109
2006 250 24 31
2007 420 34 53
2008 361 21 88
2009 388 41 188
2010 136 7 182
2011 452 41 145

Yeah, 325 is really great and 25 yards is a huge difference when already over 300+ passing yards per game being allowed. No wait.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Good answer....How many great passing offenses were in the big 12 back then? How many spread offenses?

Just keep ignoring Texas Tech then. OK.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

So you were saying there was 1.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Going to smaller and faster middle linebackers, soft coverage by the cornerbacks, less blitzing by the nickelback, over complicating the defense to the point of causing confusion for the Sooner defensive personnel. Just ask Donta, Brodney or Antonio on the confusion part.

See, this is where I get confused. All 3 of those guys were gone after the 2004 season. We ran the exact same defense in 2004 that we ran in 2003. We didn't change the scheme until 2005 when we only had 3 scholarship DBs available for spring practice. At that point we went from the 4-2-5 to the 4-3-4 because we didn't have the personnel to run the 4-2-5 any more.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I was just thinking, do you remember them toying around with the 4-4 in the spring just so we could field a full defense. Good times. Good times.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So you were saying there was 1.

Yes and that 1 went what 7-5 for 3 straight years?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I was just thinking, do you remember them toying around with the 4-4 in the spring just so we could field a full defense. Good times. Good times.

Yeah and I remember that not lasting long..

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Yeah, 325 is really great and 25 yards is a huge difference when already over 300+ passing yards per game being allowed. No wait.

It was more of a commentary on the accuracy of the stats you are using to back up your arguments. The 3rd grade name calling was the clue to look them up and see if you were lying.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Yeah and I remember that not lasting long..

Well, yeah. Even Bomar lit that D up. I just find it rather disquieting that we can't recruit to whatever scheme we settle on. Pelini runs that 4-3-4 to death and manages to get kids that fit it.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

5 best offenses faced each year in the early 2000s in conference when the defenses were highly ranked..the rankings and () means a loss...The last 2 were Venables worst ranked defenses and the offensive rankings they faced in conference...
5 best offenses
2000- 6,14,33,49,65
2001-(12), 33,38, 47, 103
2002-4,(21),( 47), 48, 58
2003-1, (17),20, 32,36

2008-4,6,8,(9), 12
2011-(2),(3),6,11,(15)

[SoonerTerry]

5 best offenses faced each year in the early 2000s in conference when the defenses were highly ranked..the rankings and () means a loss...The last 2 were Venables worst ranked defenses and the offensive rankings they faced in conference...
5 best offenses
2000- 6,14,33,49,65
2001-(12), 33,38, 47, 103
2002-4,(21),( 47), 48, 58
2003-1, (17),20, 32,36

2008-4,6,8,(9), 12
2011-(2),(3),6,11,(15)


Bingo!!

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Well, yeah. Even Bomar lit that D up. I just find it rather disquieting that we can't recruit to whatever scheme we settle on. Pelini runs that 4-3-4 to death and manages to get kids that fit it.


This is my biggest issue..recruiting and evaluation...I've haven't been interested in recruiting until this season...And people just assume Xs and Os problems because we are Oklahoma and it can't be that we aren't that much more talented than everyone else...

[thecrimsoncrusader]

See, this is where I get confused. All 3 of those guys were gone after the 2004 season. We ran the exact same defense in 2004 that we ran in 2003. We didn't change the scheme until 2005 when we only had 3 scholarship DBs available for spring practice. At that point we went from the 4-2-5 to the 4-3-4 because we didn't have the personnel to run the 4-2-4 any more.

I shouldn't have said "schematically", I should have just left it at "philosophically". If you don't think there was a huge philosophical shift from the 2003 to 2004 seasons, I would watch some games again from both seasons again. There was a reason that Donta, Brodney and Antonio and really, the defense as a whole performed poorly compared to their talent levels and it wasn't due to personnel losses from the 2003 season.

Brent Vulnerables is like the Landry Jones of defensive coordinators, he can have these truly epic performances or truly epic failures. What Oklahoma needs though is a defensive coordinator that is somewhere in between those two extremes, so they don't have those egg laying contests twice in a season each season. Oklahoma can't be great on defense each and every game, but they could certainly be more consistent.

Do you honestly think that Brent Vulnerables has gotten the job done at an acceptable level at Oklahoma over the years and particularly this season? Now the offense has been just as guilty this season in the losses (slow first half starts and turnovers), but that's for a different discussion.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Right now, the big 12 conference is the old WAC...high powered offenses with average/mediocre defenses..

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I shouldn't have said "schematically", I should have just left it at "philosophically". If you don't think there was a huge philosophical shift from the 2003 to 2004 seasons, I would watch some games again from both seasons again. There was a reason that Donta, Brodney and Antonio and really, the defense as a whole performed poorly compared to their talent levels and it wasn't due to personnel losses from the 2003 season.

Brent Vulnerables is like the Landry Jones of defensive coordinators, he can have these truly epic performances or truly epic failures. What Oklahoma needs though is a defensive coordinator that is somewhere in between those two extremes, so they don't have those egg laying contests twice in a season each season. Oklahoma can't be great on defense each and every game, but they could certainly be more consistent.

Do you honestly think that Brent Vulnerables has gotten the job done at an acceptable level at Oklahoma over the years and particularly this season? Now the offense has been just as guilty this season in the losses (slow first half starts), but that's for a different discussion.

My biggest concern is, and I'm not pro or anti venables, is him getting the players he needs to run the defense...And I think the idea that Mike Stoops will change that when he had his own recruiting problems is wrong...But if they do rehire him, I hope that I am wrong.

[Sooner_Bob]

No guys, let's just recreate 2000 all over again..Hire back the same coaches and it will all be the same...And also, remember that old high school girlfriend? if you would have just stayed with her, you would be a lot happier, so you should look her back up again...I bet she is still skinny and hawt.

I'm still skinny and hawt.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I shouldn't have said "schematically", I should have just left it at "philosophically". If you don't think there was a huge philosophical shift from the 2003 to 2004 seasons, I would watch some games again from both seasons again. There was a reason that Donta, Brodney and Antonio and really, the defense as a whole performed poorly compared to their talent levels and it wasn't due to personnel losses from the 2003 season.

Brent Vulnerables is like the Landry Jones of defensive coordinators, he can have these truly epic performances or truly epic failures. What Oklahoma needs though is a defensive coordinator that is somewhere in between those two extremes, so they don't have those egg laying contests twice in a season each season. Oklahoma can't be great on defense each and every game, but they could certainly be more consistent.

Do you honestly think that Brent Vulnerables has gotten the job done at an acceptable level at Oklahoma over the years and particularly this season? Now the offense has been just as guilty this season in the losses (slow first half starts and turnovers), but that's for a different discussion.

Now this is a cogent post with good points (although the childish naming still takes away from your argument).

The biggest difference between 2003 and 2004 was how we played on the road (and its one point that no one brings up but is a fact BV's defenses til this year played better at home than on the road). On defense, we lost a Thorpe award winner and a Butkus award winner from the previous year. However, at linebacker we replaced Lehman with Rufus but we never did replace Strait until the 3rd quarter of the aTm game when they put Marcus Walker in the game for Wolfe. From that point on, we allowed 7/3/0/3 until the USC game where we gave up 7 and then the offense spotted them 28 points and at that point everyone caved. That is my point about how good this D can be with the right personnel.

[Doged]

First I'll point out the obvious. We don't have a DC named Brent "Vulnerables". Critical comments are fine and to be expected, but disrespect of that nature toward the Sooner coaching staff should appear only on aggie boards, not Sooner fan boards.

Secondly, while I'm not against Mike Stoops returning as DC, I think that is highly unlikely and also doubt the impact that change would make. While Coach Venebles certainly isn't perfect in his implementation of the defense, I agree with those saying a recent lack of recruiting success has had more of an impact. Simply having 1 or 2 highly skilled defenders is no longer enough to contain the offenses the team faces week in and week out. We badly need something more on the order of 5 or 6 highly skilled defenders to contain every opponent every week, and that's a personnel mix that is no doubt nearly impossible to collect.

[Salt City Sooner]

Now this is a cogent post with good points (although the childish naming still takes away from your argument).

The biggest difference between 2003 and 2004 was how we played on the road (and its one point that no one brings up but is a fact BV's defenses til this year played better at home than on the road). On defense, we lost a Thorpe award winner and a Butkus award winner from the previous year. However, at linebacker we replaced Lehman with Rufus but we never did replace Strait until the 3rd quarter of the aTm game when they put Marcus Walker in the game for Wolfe. From that point on, we allowed 7/3/0/3 until the USC game where we gave up 7 and then the offense spotted them 28 points and at that point everyone caved. That is my point about how good this D can be with the right personnel.
I'd also add that one thing we never replaced in '04; 2 guys by the names of Tommie Harris & Dusty Dvoracek. This defense (& any defense, for that matter) is exponentially better when they get pressure by the front 4 w/o having to send extra guys. Leach's offense is borderline impossible to defend when you start having to blitz. Harris left after '03, & Dusty got kicked off the team a couple of games into '04 & there goes hands down 2 of the best DT's of the Stoops era. A difference maker there is in-valuable (for further proof, see OU finishing @ #8 in the nation in total defense in '09 w/ GK playing at his best alongside a healthy Adrian Taylor), & honestly, it didn't surprise me a bit to see SC light us up like they did. Heck, OU got into a shootout with OSU that year when they had Donovan-frickin Woods at QB & now you're going to give Leinart & co. a try? I'll take trainwrecks waiting to happen for $500, Alex.

[FaninAma]

5 best offenses faced each year in the early 2000s in conference when the defenses were highly ranked..the rankings and () means a loss...The last 2 were Venables worst ranked defenses and the offensive rankings they faced in conference...
5 best offenses
2000- 6,14,33,49,65
2001-(12), 33,38, 47, 103
2002-4,(21),( 47), 48, 58
2003-1, (17),20, 32,36

2008-4,6,8,(9), 12
2011-(2),(3),6,11,(15)

Hmmmm, Texas plays in the same league we play in and they were ranked 14th in total defense this year. Once they get their offensive woes figured out they will own Brent and the RRS, too.

OSU has less defensive talent than OU but their DC schemes to overcome this with all-out blitzes and other aggressive tactics that result in turnovers. In other words, he schemes around his personnel. That concept is foreign to Venables.

[Augusta_Sooner]

My biggest concern is, and I'm not pro or anti venables, is him getting the players he needs to run the defense...And I think the idea that Mike Stoops will change that when he had his own recruiting problems is wrong...But if they do rehire him, I hope that I am wrong.

Don't know about that STEP........

Derrick Strait - 4 yr starter, 2-time All-American, recipient of the 2003 Bronko Nagurski Trophy, and the 2003 Jim Thorpe Award his senior season. He holds a team record with five fumble recoveries in a single season. He was named to the Sports Illustrated All-Decade Team in 2009. 3rd rd draft pick by the Jets (started for a couple of yrs I believe).

Roy Williams - Bronko Nagurski and Jim Thorpe Award winner in 2001. 1st rd selection by Dallas, 5 straight pro-bowls. Not sure if he was recruited by Stoops & Co., but if not, Mike Stoops did a heck of a job coaching him.

Brodney Poole - 2nd rd pick by the Browns. Started as a sophomore in 2003, earning All-Big 12 honors. 3rd team All-American in 2004 and was on the Bronko Nagurski and Jim Thorpe watch lists.

OU has had no one approach the level of productivity as these guys when they played under Mike Stoops. Don't forget, OU's defense shutout FSU in the nat'l title game. Even though Snoop Minnis was suspended, the defense still pitched a shutout. Bowden even commented afterwards that FSU had no answers for OU's defense that night. It's a good thing Mike Stoops' defense was outstanding because the offense only scored 13 pts. The point is that under Mike Stoops, the defense was aggressive and forced turnovers, not read and react until you have to blitz. Don't forget about guys like Michael Thompson, he was a heck of a player under Stoops. I think he was recruited by Blake, but excelled in Stoops' defensive schemes.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Hmmmm, Texas plays in the same league we play in and they were ranked 14th in total defense this year. Once they get their offensive woes figured out they will own Brent and the RRS, too.

OSU has less defensive talent than OU but their DC schemes to overcome this with all-out blitzes and other aggressive tactics that result in turnovers. In other words, he schemes around his personnel. That concept is foreign to Venables.

Can you please show me the stats that show that OSU is better at generating turnovers CONSISTENTLY year over year compared to us? It wasn't that long ago that OU was #1 in the nation in turnover margin.

As for Texas, I hate to break it to you but they have better players than we do. Vaccaro and Acho would easily start for us.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

It was more of a commentary on the accuracy of the stats you are using to back up your arguments. The 3rd grade name calling was the clue to look them up and see if you were lying.

I would say that going off of memory and stating the 350 versus the 325 is pretty damn close given that both are over 300+ yards per game. Certainly a hell of a lot more accurate than you would be able to recall.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Don't know about that STEP........

Derrick Strait - 4 yr starter, 2-time All-American, recipient of the 2003 Bronko Nagurski Trophy, and the 2003 Jim Thorpe Award his senior season. He holds a team record with five fumble recoveries in a single season. He was named to the Sports Illustrated All-Decade Team in 2009. 3rd rd draft pick by the Jets (started for a couple of yrs I believe).

Roy Williams - Bronko Nagurski and Jim Thorpe Award winner in 2001. 1st rd selection by Dallas, 5 straight pro-bowls. Not sure if he was recruited by Stoops & Co., but if not, Mike Stoops did a heck of a job coaching him.

Brodney Poole - 2nd rd pick by the Browns. Started as a sophomore in 2003, earning All-Big 12 honors. 3rd team All-American in 2004 and was on the Bronko Nagurski and Jim Thorpe watch lists.

OU has had no one approach the level of productivity as these guys when they played under Mike Stoops. Don't forget, OU's defense shutout FSU in the nat'l title game. Even though Snoop Minnis was suspended, the defense still pitched a shutout. Bowden even commented afterwards that FSU had no answers for OU's defense that night. It's a good thing Mike Stoops' defense was outstanding because the offense only scored 13 pts. The point is that under Mike Stoops, the defense was aggressive and forced turnovers, not read and react until you have to blitz. Don't forget about guys like Michael Thompson, he was a heck of a player under Stoops. I think he was recruited by Blake, but excelled in Stoops' defensive schemes.

These are Mike Stoops Recruiting classes

Year|Games Played|Wins
1999|157|136

Brandon Everage 54|48
Derrick Strait 54|48
Matt McCoy 10|8
Michael Thompson 39|32

2000 57|51
Brandon Shelby 40|35
Darren Stephens 0|0
Michael Freeman 0|0
Terrance Simms 17|16
Vernon Maxwell 0|0

2001 73|64
Avery Shine 0|0
Bobby Klinck 0|0
Eric Bassey 49|42
Jowahn Poteat 24|22
Justin Williams 0|0

2002 87|73
Aaron Miller 0|0
Brodney Pool 33|29
Jason Carter 48|38
Micheal Hawkins 6|6

2003 90|73

Chijioke Onyenegecha 24|19
Darien Williams 39|30
Donte Nicholson 27|24
Tony Cade 0|0

2004 55|45
Brett Bowers 14|12
Lendy Holmes 41|33

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I would say that going off of memory and stating the 350 versus the 325 is pretty damn close given that both are over 300+ yards per game. Certainly a hell of a lot more accurate than you would be able to recall.

The quality of trolls has really gone down over the years

[NormanPride]

Can you please show me the stats that show that OSU is better at generating turnovers CONSISTENTLY year over year compared to us? It wasn't that long ago that OU was #1 in the nation in turnover margin.

As for Texas, I hate to break it to you but they have better players than we do. Vaccaro and Acho would easily start for us.

And yet they were still getting torched by good offenses.

And I believe OSU has been near the top in turnovers for the past couple to three years.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Now this is a cogent post with good points (although the childish naming still takes away from your argument).

The biggest difference between 2003 and 2004 was how we played on the road (and its one point that no one brings up but is a fact BV's defenses til this year played better at home than on the road). On defense, we lost a Thorpe award winner and a Butkus award winner from the previous year. However, at linebacker we replaced Lehman with Rufus but we never did replace Strait until the 3rd quarter of the aTm game when they put Marcus Walker in the game for Wolfe. From that point on, we allowed 7/3/0/3 until the USC game where we gave up 7 and then the offense spotted them 28 points and at that point everyone caved. That is my point about how good this D can be with the right personnel.

The problem is the right personnel goes back to coaching and evaluation and that appears to be lacking. Oklahoma has been short of award winners on the defensive side of the ball since the departure of Mike Stoops.

Where I believe Mike Stoops was important going beyond the defensive side of the ball is he was the "devil on Bob Stoops' shoulders" in a manner of speaking. He would sometimes have the capability of pushing Bob Stoops into decisions he would not otherwise make. Mike Stoops was also very good at pointing out deficiences in opposing team's special teams units. Whether he does or not, this has not seemed to be the case with Brent Venables. While Mike Stoops had a poor stint at Arizona, he "almost" effectively gave Oklahoma two head coaches at the program in terms of capability and the same goes for Mark Mangino. Those are some excellent game-planners on both sides of the balll that quite frankly have never been replaced.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

And yet they were still getting torched by good offenses..

So, going to cite the 2001 KSU game, 2002 OSU and ATM games? Any others? Those seem to be the same 3 that people always mention, which isn't exactly a large test base. And the 2001 KSU game was nothing more than Bill Snyder knowing how to exploit the Sooner defense for what should be very obvious reasons.

[NormanPride]

The problem is the right personnel goes back to coaching and evaluation and that appears to be lacking. Oklahoma has been short of award winners on the defensive side of the ball since the departure of Mike Stoops.

Where I believe Mike Stoops was important going beyond the defensive side of the ball is he was the "devil on Bob Stoops' shoulders" in a manner of speaking. He would sometimes have the capability of pushing Bob Stoops into decisions he would not otherwise make. Mike Stoops was also very good at pointing out deficiences in opposing team's special teams units. Whether he does or not, this has not seemed to be the case with Brent Venables. While Mike Stoops had a poor stint at Arizona, he "almost" effectively gave Oklahoma two head coaches at the program in terms of capability and the same goes for Mark Mangino. Those are some excellent game-planners on both sides of the balll that quite frankly have never been replaced.

The two names you mentioned, Mike and Mark, were the worst recruiters we have had in decades.

[NormanPride]

So, going to cite the 2001 KSU game, 2002 OSU and ATM games? Any others? Those seem to be the same 3 that people always mention, which isn't exactly a large test base. And the 2001 KSU game was nothing more than Bill Snyder knowing how to exploit the Sooner defense for what should be very obvious reasons.

No, I was talking about the Texas defense this year, not the ones in the past. 2002 was not a good defense, though.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

No, I was talking about the Texas defense this year, not the ones in the past. 2002 was not a good defense, though.

The 2002 defense was as stout in the front 7 as any we've fielded. Where it suffered was at Safety (Everage injured and Bassey in over its head) and Bad Safeties = Bad Defense. That is how frajeelee a defense is.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

The two names you mentioned, Mike and Mark, were the worst recruiters we have had in decades.

I would say they made up for it in other areas and during their stint, there were no embarrassing blow-out losses caused by the defensive side of the ball. The only one that could be pointed out would be the 2002 OU/OSU game, but OU's offense only had like 6 points in the 1st half and the second half scoring output was due to OSU going into prevent defense playing not to lose instead of to win and allowing big plays to Trent Smith, which the game ended 38-28.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The problem is the right personnel goes back to coaching and evaluation and that appears to be lacking. Oklahoma has been short of award winners on the defensive side of the ball since the departure of Mike Stoops.

Where I believe Mike Stoops was important going beyond the defensive side of the ball is he was the "devil on Bob Stoops' shoulders" in a manner of speaking. He would sometimes have the capability of pushing Bob Stoops into decisions he would not otherwise make. Mike Stoops was also very good at pointing out deficiences in opposing team's special teams units. Whether he does or not, this has not seemed to be the case with Brent Venables. While Mike Stoops had a poor stint at Arizona, he "almost" effectively gave Oklahoma two head coaches at the program in terms of capability and the same goes for Mark Mangino. Those are some excellent game-planners on both sides of the balll that quite frankly have never been replaced.

I have no disagreements with you on incoming talent level. It is the #1 reason why I think BV needs to go (lack of talent at linebacker). However, I think you are remembering MS and Mangino way too fondly for what they did here. Here are Mangino's recruiting classes:

1999 0|0
Jon Hawk 0|0

2000 59|52
Clif Takawana 0|0
Howard Duncan 26|24
Jerod Fields 0|0
Wes Sims 33|28

2001 103|87
Brett Rayl 8|8
Clint Werth 0|0
Jerod Fields 6|5
Jon Hawk 0|0
Kelvin Chaisson 42|34
Vince Carter 47|40

2002 49|40
Abner Estrada 4|4
Chris Messner 44|35
Jeff Lebby 1|1
Steve Taylor 0|0


This does not include the following:

Jammal Brown (Move from DT), Chester/Bush some others that moved from TE, Kempenich who could have gotten a 6th year in 2001 and didn't return, Davin Joseph (committed after Mangino left).

[toast]

So, going to cite the 2001 KSU game, 2002 OSU and ATM games? Any others? Those seem to be the same 3 that people always mention, which isn't exactly a large test base. And the 2001 KSU game was nothing more than Bill Snyder knowing how to exploit the Sooner defense for what should be very obvious reasons.

I remember Missouri having a pretty good offensive performance with Brad Smith in '02.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I would say they made up for it in other areas and during their stint, there were no embarrassing blow-out losses caused by the defensive side of the ball. The only one that could be pointed out would be the 2002 OU/OSU game, but OU's offense only had like 6 points in the 1st half and the second half scoring output was due to OSU going into prevent defense playing not to lose instead of to win and allowing big plays to Trent Smith, which the game ended 38-28.

The reason we didn't score in the 1st half was that Mangino came out with 11 straight passes against the worst Run D in the nation. Once we started handing the rock to Q (who had over 1700 yards that year) we started moving the ball but we were down 21 points.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I would say they made up for it in other areas and during their stint

So this is an idea that has been thrown around here quite a bit. I'm okay with the thought of one person that only concentrates on evaluation and recruiting for different positions. The question is who. Cale Gundy is the recruiting coordinator and he has done fairly well with running back talent (though he has had his misses as well).

[NormanPride]

I would say they made up for it in other areas and during their stint, there were no embarrassing blow-out losses caused by the defensive side of the ball. The only one that could be pointed out would be the 2002 OU/OSU game, but OU's offense only had like 6 points in the 1st half and the second half scoring output was due to OSU going into prevent defense playing not to lose instead of to win and allowing big plays to Trent Smith, which the game ended 38-28.

We were playing with converted players in both the secondary and the OL when those guys left. DJ Wolfe had to be converted from a quality RB to a terrible corner just so we would have enough guys to field a team. The only reason our D and O didn't get MUCH worse than it could have in 05 was because those guys were gone.

I'm all for BV going. He's been a steadily poorer and poorer DC as the years go on, and it's time to change his position with the team. But Mike is definitely not the answer. We are thin enough in the secondary as it is!

[NormanPride]

The reason we didn't score in the 1st half was that Mangino came out with 11 straight passes against the worst Run D in the nation. Once we started handing the rock to Q (who had over 1700 yards that year) we started moving the ball but we were down 21 points.

Kind of like the osu game this year?

[NormanPride]

So this is an idea that has been thrown around here quite a bit. I'm okay with the thought of one person that only concentrates on evaluation and recruiting for different positions. The question is who. Cale Gundy is the recruiting coordinator and he has done fairly well with running back talent (though he has had his misses as well).

Why don't we have a team of guys who do nothing but recruit? As far as I can tell, you can have tons of consultants that never see the kids, but they can do all the film and evaluation work they want.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

I remember Missouri having a pretty good offensive performance with Brad Smith in '02.

Brad Smith rushed for 213 yards, but he also completed under 50% of his passes for under 200 yards and threw 3 picks with 1 TD pass, so what he had was a darn good rushing performance, but not a good game overall. In the end, Missouri had 24 points in that game in Columbia and busted out the tall grass to try to neutralize OU's speed on defense. From what we have seen lately, that team would probably score 48 on Oklahoma's defense now.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

We were playing with converted players in both the secondary and the OL when those guys left. DJ Wolfe had to be converted from a quality RB to a terrible corner just so we would have enough guys to field a team. The only reason our D and O didn't get MUCH worse than it could have in 05 was because those guys were gone.

I'm all for BV going. He's been a steadily poorer and poorer DC as the years go on, and it's time to change his position with the team. But Mike is definitely not the answer. We are thin enough in the secondary as it is!

I'm actually for BV staying IF Martinez is canned and Mike Stoops comes in. BV and Mike Stoops make a great combo. Good LB coach and a good DB coach and together, I believe they can still kick tail and take names here and now. I just think BV as the main man is just to overwhelming for him. That's the only scenario where I would want to see BV stay on though.

[NormanPride]

I'm actually for BV staying IF Martinez is canned and Mike Stoops comes in. BV and Mike Stoops make a great combo. Good LB coach and a good DB coach and together, I believe they can still kick tail and take names hear and now. I just think BV as the main man is just to overwhelming for him. That's the only scenario where I would want to see BV stay on though.

I agree that BV is a great CO-DC, and that the full job has overwhelmed him. However, I don't think bringing Mike back will help that. I just don't have any confidence in his recruiting... I love his fire and intensity, though.

I think if we found a great secondary coach that was ready for co-dc duty we could salvage this, but I don't know that Brent would take it well.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

The reason we didn't score in the 1st half was that Mangino came out with 11 straight passes against the worst Run D in the nation. Once we started handing the rock to Q (who had over 1700 yards that year) we started moving the ball but we were down 21 points.

Wrong. The BIG failure in the first half was Chuck Long was having the Sooner receiving corps running slants, curls and drags against the 103rd ranked pass defense in the nation (whatever it was, it was horrible) despite those horrible passing statistics being created by mid to deep routes. Teams absolutely tore through OSU's pass defense leading up to the Oklahoma game, but Chuck Long kept opting for the short routes despite Nate Hybl actually being healthy that season.

Oklahoma started scoring in the 2nd half because OSU went into prevent. That was blantantly obvious if you were actually at that miserable game in Stoolwater. It was absolutely inexcusable for Nate to only have 211 passing yards that day against that atrocious pass defense (not his fault). OSU was 50th in the nation in rushing defense that year BTW.

[Okie35]

Alright mama..First name off all the great passing offenses in the big 12 when Mike was coaching..

This. More teams were running the option. The spread is incredibly hard to defend even the almighty SEC defenses get torched.

[StoopTroup]

Alright mama..First name off all the great passing offenses in the big 12 when Mike was coaching..

Dude....I think she just went and took a Valium and chugged a bottle of wine. Have very Merry Christmas...Dream about your hearts desire, Christmas Eve when you retire, Santa Claus will stop and I know he'll drop Exactly what you wanted from your chimney top. So be jolly, have a holiday as gay as holly. May the ones you love be near you with the laugh of friends to cheer you. When the church bells ring, Like the angels sing, And you hear the joyful hymn they chime, Hang a wish from me on your Christmas tree For a very Merry Christmas time.

[SoonerorLater]

I've wondered about the defense for some years now. You guys bring up some good points. Is it the general talent level? Our schemes? Defensive philosophy? I did a little bit of a comparison between the Mike Stoops 2002 defense and the 2010 Venables defense. Two teams with the same record.

Quick back of the envelope calculations show the 2002 OU team gave up about 15 points a game the 2010 team about 22 ppg. A difference to be sure but does that really account for what we think we see happening on the field today? If you take into consideration the increased number of possesions for the opposition it really is almost a wash. ( I didn't go into every game but I would say the difference is about 2-3 possesions a game. Not as much as I would have thought but still significant).

The main difference I see is the number of points that OU gave up in the games they WON. The 2 losses each team had for their respective years was almost identical, the 2002 team gave up 30 & 38 in their losses, the 2010 team gave up 36 & 30. Incidentally the two teams they lost to in 2002 OSU and ATM were worse or as bad as teams we lost to in 2010, ATM & Missouri. So why is the larger opinion that our defense was better under M Stoops?

I think it's the lack of as many dominating performances. The 2002 team had 5 games they allowed less then 10 points, two of which were shutouts, one allowing only a field goal. The 2010 team only two and routinely giving up 20 points in their wins. I think why we have the general impression that our defense sucks now is because of perceived softness ie. no dominating performances. Throw in giving up the big play here and there and we have people calling for Venables head even though he probably isn't giving up many more points per possession on the average then we did when Stoops was DC.

[OU_Sooners75]

what is your opinion about how we were defending against the pass on a consistent basis? Thats one of my biggest concerns.

Now, I loved a Mike Stoops defense as much as anyone...and I think he would do wonders once again if he was here....

But there was not many great passing teams in the Big 12. Tech and that was really it. The spread was barely filtering into the Big 12 at the time.

But he did do a pretty decent job at stopping the passing game of opposition minus two games.

That said, I think he can evaluate the talent he has better than the current defensive coaching staff. He did seem to be able to take a player from one position and make them good at another. Remember D.J Wolfe? And he is only one example.

[OU_Sooners75]

Anyway...the more I cool off, I think there is a mixture of things wrong with our team this year.

1. If Stoops and others are correct, then it seems our players have a sense of entitlement.
2. The coaches did not do a very good job in 3 games this year.

I am still for some changes, whatever changes those are...I guess I will leave up to Stoops, and hope he does initiate some changes, seeing as some people just don't want to hear fans opinions.

[StoopTroup]

Very few injuries in 1999 and 2000.

Mike did a great job of keeping our players on the field. So did Brent in 2008. Makes a heck of a difference. Sometimes you get lucky, other times you work through them and other times you are screwed and have to play with what you have left.

[toast]

I'm actually for BV staying IF Martinez is canned and Mike Stoops comes in. BV and Mike Stoops make a great combo. Good LB coach and a good DB coach and together, I believe they can still kick tail and take names here and now. I just think BV as the main man is just to overwhelming for him. That's the only scenario where I would want to see BV stay on though.

If MS does come back I truly hope "a great combo" is the result. One thing that people don't take into account much of is that MS had one thing that BV did not, and that was BV as an assistant coach.

[StoopTroup]

These are Mike Stoops Recruiting classes

Year|Games Played|Wins
1999|157|136

Brandon Everage 54|48
Derrick Strait 54|48
Matt McCoy 10|8
Michael Thompson 39|32

2000 57|51
Brandon Shelby 40|35
Darren Stephens 0|0
Michael Freeman 0|0
Terrance Simms 17|16
Vernon Maxwell 0|0

2001 73|64
Avery Shine 0|0
Bobby Klinck 0|0
Eric Bassey 49|42
Jowahn Poteat 24|22
Justin Williams 0|0

2002 87|73
Aaron Miller 0|0
Brodney Pool 33|29
Jason Carter 48|38
Micheal Hawkins 6|6

2003 90|73

Chijioke Onyenegecha 24|19
Darien Williams 39|30
Donte Nicholson 27|24
Tony Cade 0|0

2004 55|45
Brett Bowers 14|12
Lendy Holmes 41|33

I can see at least 5 guys in there that people here nearly came apart about. Bassey and Lendy Holmes probably got it the worst. It was sad as they were both pretty good players. They had some tough beats.

[S00ner4life]

I think a great question is what will OU fans think if Mike Stoops comes back (which I think is unlikely) and things aren't much different? Under Mike Stoops OU got burned in 2001 by two deep touchdown catches by Eric Crouch and Rashaun Woods that lost both games. In 2002, Reggie McNeal and Josh Fields torched OU's secondary and of course the K-State debacle in 2003. I don't think any of those games except the Nebraska game in 2001, OU brought their A-game. I do think when Bob and Mike were together there was more consistency. The defense especially in 2000 of course along with '01,'02 and '03 was suffocating.

In 2004 was what was the beginning of the defense becoming really inconsistent, at times looking good against probably bad offenses and giving up big plays in other games. The Bedlam game, the A&M game were very prescient of what would happen against USC. In retrospect I wonder if the years of 2004-2007 were small drop off periods for OU because they lost so many great players on offense but particularly on defense. They lost Torrance Marshall, Rocky Calmus, Derrick Strait, Woolfolk, Lehman, Roy Williams, Tommie Harris.

I currently wonder if OU is going through a drop off on both sides of the both through the losses of the players that played in 2008 although Alexander, Lewis and Fleming, Broyles were on those teams. I do think OU's offensive line has suffered since losing talented and physical guys like Loadholt, Robinson, Williams, Walker and Cooper. They also lost the greatest quarterback in the school's history along with good receivers in Juaquin Igleasias, Manny Johnson, a freshman Ryan Broyles and Jermaine Gresham at tight end who was probably the best receiver of those three at the time.

The defense in 2008 although inconsistent was good and I'll go ahead and say it was probably the strongest defense OU has had since 2003. They got burned by Texas but they played well against Florida, well enough to win. If the offense executed in the first half in the red zone,they might have been up on the Gators 28-7 which could have completely changed the trajectory of that game obviously. Tebow had has worst passing performance at Florida until they lost to Alabama a year later. The defensive line had Auston English, Jeremy Beal, Frank Alexander, Demarcus Granger and of course Gerald McCoy. The linebackers were Travis Lewis, Ryan Reynolds, and Keenan Clayton who plays in the NFL currently. The defensive backs had a good year with Dominique Franks and Brian Jackson, Nic Harris, Lendy Holmes and Quinton Carter.

Overall I think the coaching staff needs to fix things. I think Bob needs to stop being such a head coach sometimes and needs to really get back in there and coach defense because I know he can and he has for Oklahoma and when he was one of the top defensive coordinators at Florida. I just think sometimes it's hard to have great team after great team because great players leave one way or the other and sometimes it's hard to replace them.

I don't think Brent Venables is the greatest coach in the world but I don't think he is completely horrible either. His defense that he coached almost brought home Oklahoma's eighth national title in 2008. We were so close to winning it against Tim Tebow who was and is a thorn in everyone's side in college and the NFL. That game still bothers me a bit. I just wonder if OU is still reeling from the loss of players through graduation and the NFL. I think OU's main problems this year were coaching I agree with people in that regard but also not consistently controlling the line of scrimmage on the offensive and defensive side of the ball. I think all games are won and lost in the trenches.

[soonerbub]

Through the years it has always been the vogue on this board to "hate" on Mike and I have never understood it. The detractors always point to Eric Bassey (who made the NFL if only on special teams).

If you're going to criticize for Bassey you must give credit for pulling in Strait & Everage in half a recruiting period (I will always believe that the '99 recruiting class was the greatest in college football history considering the results & the fact that it was done in so little time not to mention the destruction of recruiting files by Boo).

People also blame Mike for the ksu debacle as he "changed" the gameplan with 48 hours to gametime after accepting the zona job--well sometimes sh!t happens.

To say the D from '03 to '04 did not change schematically is simply inaccurate. Pelini switched us to a base cover 3 and although we had success several cracks were exploited by opponents that year (besides texass that was a weak year overall for the Big XII as a whole).

I'm not gonna ramble on but one thing that makes up for perceived shortcomings with Mike is (was) his ability to demand 100% balls to the wall hair on fire EFFORT from his players. I can't count the number of times our D this year stoppped pursuing on long TDs this year around the 30 yard line (which is absolute ****ing bull****).

In Bob I trust but I can verify with Mike. BOOOOOMER

[cvsooner]

The reason we didn't score in the 1st half was that Mangino came out with 11 straight passes against the worst Run D in the nation. Once we started handing the rock to Q (who had over 1700 yards that year) we started moving the ball but we were down 21 points.Geez. Does that ever sound familiar. Only we never fixed it this time.

[soonerbub]

Mangino was leading the jayhawks to 1 win in 2002--that clusterfork was all on Chuck

[Breadburner]

How many points did we score against LSU and Florida in the NC's......

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Hmmmm, Texas plays in the same league we play in and they were ranked 14th in total defense this year. Once they get their offensive woes figured out they will own Brent and the RRS, too.

OSU has less defensive talent than OU but their DC schemes to overcome this with all-out blitzes and other aggressive tactics that result in turnovers. In other words, he schemes around his personnel. That concept is foreign to Venables.

Look at the talent texas is getting on the defensive side of the ball...corners, safeties, Dline, LBers...Big talent difference getting brought in.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Don't know about that STEP........

Derrick Strait - 4 yr starter, 2-time All-American, recipient of the 2003 Bronko Nagurski Trophy, and the 2003 Jim Thorpe Award his senior season. He holds a team record with five fumble recoveries in a single season. He was named to the Sports Illustrated All-Decade Team in 2009. 3rd rd draft pick by the Jets (started for a couple of yrs I believe).

Roy Williams - Bronko Nagurski and Jim Thorpe Award winner in 2001. 1st rd selection by Dallas, 5 straight pro-bowls. Not sure if he was recruited by Stoops & Co., but if not, Mike Stoops did a heck of a job coaching him.

Brodney Poole - 2nd rd pick by the Browns. Started as a sophomore in 2003, earning All-Big 12 honors. 3rd team All-American in 2004 and was on the Bronko Nagurski and Jim Thorpe watch lists.

OU has had no one approach the level of productivity as these guys when they played under Mike Stoops. Don't forget, OU's defense shutout FSU in the nat'l title game. Even though Snoop Minnis was suspended, the defense still pitched a shutout. Bowden even commented afterwards that FSU had no answers for OU's defense that night. It's a good thing Mike Stoops' defense was outstanding because the offense only scored 13 pts. The point is that under Mike Stoops, the defense was aggressive and forced turnovers, not read and react until you have to blitz. Don't forget about guys like Michael Thompson, he was a heck of a player under Stoops. I think he was recruited by Blake, but excelled in Stoops' defensive schemes.

In case you didnt see, look at the db's recruited on the previous page and then get back to me..

[Salt City Sooner]

I think a great question is what will OU fans think if Mike Stoops comes back (which I think is unlikely) and things aren't much different? Under Mike Stoops OU got burned in 2001 by two deep touchdown catches by Eric Crouch and Rashaun Woods that lost both games. In 2002, Reggie McNeal and Josh Fields torched OU's secondary and of course the K-State debacle in 2003. I don't think any of those games except the Nebraska game in 2001, OU brought their A-game. I do think when Bob and Mike were together there was more consistency. The defense especially in 2000 of course along with '01,'02 and '03 was suffocating.

In 2004 was what was the beginning of the defense becoming really inconsistent, at times looking good against probably bad offenses and giving up big plays in other games. The Bedlam game, the A&M game were very prescient of what would happen against USC. In retrospect I wonder if the years of 2004-2007 were small drop off periods for OU because they lost so many great players on offense but particularly on defense. They lost Torrance Marshall, Rocky Calmus, Derrick Strait, Woolfolk, Lehman, Roy Williams, Tommie Harris.

I currently wonder if OU is going through a drop off on both sides of the both through the losses of the players that played in 2008 although Alexander, Lewis and Fleming, Broyles were on those teams. I do think OU's offensive line has suffered since losing talented and physical guys like Loadholt, Robinson, Williams, Walker and Cooper. They also lost the greatest quarterback in the school's history along with good receivers in Juaquin Igleasias, Manny Johnson, a freshman Ryan Broyles and Jermaine Gresham at tight end who was probably the best receiver of those three at the time.

The defense in 2008 although inconsistent was good and I'll go ahead and say it was probably the strongest defense OU has had since 2003. They got burned by Texas but they played well against Florida, well enough to win. If the offense executed in the first half in the red zone,they might have been up on the Gators 28-7 which could have completely changed the trajectory of that game obviously. Tebow had has worst passing performance at Florida until they lost to Alabama a year later. The defensive line had Auston English, Jeremy Beal, Frank Alexander, Demarcus Granger and of course Gerald McCoy. The linebackers were Travis Lewis, Ryan Reynolds, and Keenan Clayton who plays in the NFL currently. The defensive backs had a good year with Dominique Franks and Brian Jackson, Nic Harris, Lendy Holmes and Quinton Carter.

Overall I think the coaching staff needs to fix things. I think Bob needs to stop being such a head coach sometimes and needs to really get back in there and coach defense because I know he can and he has for Oklahoma and when he was one of the top defensive coordinators at Florida. I just think sometimes it's hard to have great team after great team because great players leave one way or the other and sometimes it's hard to replace them.

I don't think Brent Venables is the greatest coach in the world but I don't think he is completely horrible either. His defense that he coached almost brought home Oklahoma's eighth national title in 2008. We were so close to winning it against Tim Tebow who was and is a thorn in everyone's side in college and the NFL. That game still bothers me a bit. I just wonder if OU is still reeling from the loss of players through graduation and the NFL. I think OU's main problems this year were coaching I agree with people in that regard but also not consistently controlling the line of scrimmage on the offensive and defensive side of the ball. I think all games are won and lost in the trenches.
I'll agree that '08 was a good bit better than they get credit for, mainly due to being constantly under the gun from atrocious special teams (namely KO returns) play. The '09 D was WAY better though. It unfortunately, however, was hung out to dry by the offensive struggles (largely due to injury). It reminded me a lot of the '01 D's situation (great D, shaky O ).

[wishbonesooner]

Mike's defenses were sound fundamentally. They tackled well, not nearly as many arm tackles as we see today. After Mike, we started having DB's like Chiijoke, who couldn't tackle my mother. They got burned deep, but not nearly as frequently as now, and rarely over the middle. BV's defenses have a hole in the middle of the field that any OC can scheme to beat.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Through the years it has always been the vogue on this board to "hate" on Mike and I have never understood it. The detractors always point to Eric Bassey (who made the NFL if only on special teams).

The problem on this board is that they force you to take an extreme -> Love or Hate. Most of it absolutely LOVE the way that Mike called the Tampa 2. The man was a genious on gameday with that defense. On the other hand, we HATE the way he got infatuated with "athletes" that couldn't cover a lick or that left after 1 year because they couldn't stand him.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Mike's defenses were sound fundamentally. They tackled well, not nearly as many arm tackles as we see today. After Mike, we started having DB's like Chiijoke, who couldn't tackle my mother. They got burned deep, but not nearly as frequently as now, and rarely over the middle. BV's defenses have a hole in the middle of the field that any OC can scheme to beat.

Agree. Agree. Mike recruited Chijoke.

The hole in the middle is the responsibility of the Linebackers. When we've had good linebackers, it disappears. When we haven't its huge. It was the exact same under Mike only we had 2 Butkus award winners there. Think about TM's INT in 2000, where was that ball thrown?

[LASooner]

The thing I remember was that in game defensive adjustments seemed to happen faster when Mike was there. Our current staff seems to adjust at the half, in the Mike/Brent days it seemed to happen at the quarters or quicker.

[Augusta_Sooner]

In case you didnt see, look at the db's recruited on the previous page and then get back to me..

In case you didn't notice, at least a half dozen of those players went to the NFL and that doesn't include guys like Thompson and Hawkins who had NFL talent but had their OU careers cut short due to injuries (Thompson) and homesick/headcase (Hawkins). Before he got injured, Stoops would put Thompson on the other team's biggest receiver and shut them down. Don't you think the NFL would have loved a guy like that? Thompson was on his way to the NFL until his accident. You need to remember something, because Stoops hit a home run (no, a grand slam) with the '99 class, the '00 class essentially became their backups. That's because 3 of the 4 players in the '99 class went on to be 4 and 3 year starters. Looking at the classes thereafter, he found guys like Poole (started 33 games & starter for the Browns), Bassey (started 49 games and drafted by Tampa), Shelby (started 40 games), Carter (started 48 games). Holmes was recruited as a WR, not a DB (someone should check their recruiting facts). But since his name was brought up.......Stoops converted him to DB and he played so well that he was given a shot by the Redskins. Doesn't sound like he had problems with recruting or coaching to me. What do you expect, for him to recruit nothing but All-Americans? There's a reason why he was offered a HC position to a BCS school after only 5 yrs at OU. Venables? You don't hear his name mentioned for any HC job, BCS or non-BCS school. Wonder why?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

at least half a dozen? Come on, look again..If you are talking about receiving camp invites, then I'll give that to you..And a lot of those guys you are mentioning as starters were starters because of default, not that they were great..


The problem on this board is that they force you to take an extreme -> Love or Hate. Most of it absolutely LOVE the way that Mike called the Tampa 2. The man was a genious on gameday with that defense. On the other hand, we HATE the way he got infatuated with "athletes" that couldn't cover a lick or that left after 1 year because they couldn't stand him.

This right here..I remember the frustration with Mike Stoops before he left and I remember saying, "The way we romanticize with coaches when they leave, we'll think he's the best ever and want him back in a few years."

If he comes back? Fine, I hope he does great here and we can all relive 11 years ago again...I just don't think it's necessary for him to come back so this program can win..

[NormanPride]

Agree. Agree. Mike recruited Chijoke.

The hole in the middle is the responsibility of the Linebackers. When we've had good linebackers, it disappears. When we haven't its huge. It was the exact same under Mike only we had 2 Butkus award winners there. Think about TM's INT in 2000, where was that ball thrown?

The thing I remember MOST about that play was the quote someone had after the game. TM hadn't made that play ONCE in practice, but he made it when it counted most and won us the game. Do you think the coaches would even play that kind of kid now? One that turns it on on gameday rather than in practice?

It's not just evaluation in High School, it's evaluation once they get here. How often have we seen a player (particularly LB) come in off the bench and play lights out, make a difference and help us win, only to go right back to the bench and never be seen again. Remember the fake punt that one JUCO killed single-handedly? That kind of play should get someone a shot. But we had stable, mediocre LBs in front of him and not enough balls to shake up the depth chart.

[FaninAma]

Why is Texas' defense so much better than ours statistically? Do they have better players? Not IMO. The biggest difference is coaching and defensive schemes.

[NormanPride]

No, they have better players overall. I think everyone in their secondary is going pro other than Gideon. Man, I'm gonna miss that guy like I miss Chrissy Simms.

[Augusta_Sooner]

at least half a dozen? Come on, look again..If you are talking about receiving camp invites, then I'll give that to you..And a lot of those guys you are mentioning as starters were starters because of default, not that they were great..



This right here..I remember the frustration with Mike Stoops before he left and I remember saying, "The way we romanticize with coaches when they leave, we'll think he's the best ever and want him back in a few years."

If he comes back? Fine, I hope he does great here and we can all relive 11 years ago again...I just don't think it's necessary for him to come back so this program can win..

I agree in that it's not necessary for Mike Stoops and Mike Stoops only to coach the defense. There are other coaches out there who could do great things at OU as well. I think that some of us just believe that the defense needs new direction. During Stoops' time, the defense was more aggressive, made plays, and there seemed to be less confusion amongst the players. Since his defenses were successful in bringing a nat' title to Norman in only his 2nd yr as DC, some ppl, including me, believe that he could come back to OU and improve the defense; so why not a 2nd go around? It worked for KSU with Snyder? I realize that the spread offense is more prevelant now, but if he's all that and a bag of chips as a DC, he should be able to slow down these offense enough to allow OU to have a chance to win. Those offense are going to pile up yards and some points, but the best defenses can slow them down and give their offense a chance. In BCS title games, OU's spread offenses have only scored, 13, 14, 19 and 14 pts. repsectively for an avg of 15 pts per game, depsite all the great players OU had on offense in those games. Look back at all the nat'l award winners, All-Americans, All-Big 12 players, NFL draft picks, etc. who played on those offenses. Yet, against some of the best defenses, they only averaged 15 pts per game in BCS title games running a spread offense. That shows you that the best DC/defenses can stop these offenses. Some ppl are better coordinators than head coaches. Maybe Mike Stoops is more DC material than HC material.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Why is Texas' defense so much better than ours statistically? Do they have better players? Not IMO. The biggest difference is coaching and defensive schemes.

Wow, provide some reasoning for why you don't think they have better players.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

In case you didn't notice, at least a half dozen of those players went to the NFL and that doesn't include guys like Thompson and Hawkins who had NFL talent but had their OU careers cut short due to injuries (Thompson) and homesick/headcase (Hawkins). Before he got injured, Stoops would put Thompson on the other team's biggest receiver and shut them down. Don't you think the NFL would have loved a guy like that? Thompson was on his way to the NFL until his accident. You need to remember something, because Stoops hit a home run (no, a grand slam) with the '99 class, the '00 class essentially became their backups. That's because 3 of the 4 players in the '99 class went on to be 4 and 3 year starters. Looking at the classes thereafter, he found guys like Poole (started 33 games & starter for the Browns), Bassey (started 49 games and drafted by Tampa), Shelby (started 40 games), Carter (started 48 games). Holmes was recruited as a WR, not a DB (someone should check their recruiting facts). But since his name was brought up.......Stoops converted him to DB and he played so well that he was given a shot by the Redskins. Doesn't sound like he had problems with recruting or coaching to me. What do you expect, for him to recruit nothing but All-Americans? There's a reason why he was offered a HC position to a BCS school after only 5 yrs at OU. Venables? You don't hear his name mentioned for any HC job, BCS or non-BCS school. Wonder why?

Lendy Holmes was recruited as an Athlete who "would get a shot at WR, but most likely will end up on defense" thus that is why he is listed as a DB unlike Perkins who was purely recruited as a WR.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

In case you didn't notice, at least a half dozen of those players went to the NFL and that doesn't include guys like Thompson and Hawkins who had NFL talent but had their OU careers cut short due to injuries (Thompson) and homesick/headcase (Hawkins). Before he got injured, Stoops would put Thompson on the other team's biggest receiver and shut them down. Don't you think the NFL would have loved a guy like that? Thompson was on his way to the NFL until his accident. You need to remember something, because Stoops hit a home run (no, a grand slam) with the '99 class, the '00 class essentially became their backups. That's because 3 of the 4 players in the '99 class went on to be 4 and 3 year starters. Looking at the classes thereafter, he found guys like Poole (started 33 games & starter for the Browns), Bassey (started 49 games and drafted by Tampa), Shelby (started 40 games), Carter (started 48 games). Holmes was recruited as a WR, not a DB (someone should check their recruiting facts). But since his name was brought up.......Stoops converted him to DB and he played so well that he was given a shot by the Redskins. Doesn't sound like he had problems with recruting or coaching to me. What do you expect, for him to recruit nothing but All-Americans? There's a reason why he was offered a HC position to a BCS school after only 5 yrs at OU. Venables? You don't hear his name mentioned for any HC job, BCS or non-BCS school. Wonder why?

The problem is that you are discounting the concept of a pipeline. You see, 4 years after a recruiting class OU continues to play football. To say that he struck gold in 1999 is factual. To say that he didn't have any problems recruiting when in 2004 we had 3 defensive backs in spring practice is where you are struggling. While Stoops is not responsible for guys like Thompson (although Simms was an injury risk in juco), he is FULLY responsible for guys like Hawkins. Whether someone can hack it in college AND be able to handle your coaching style is part of the recruiting process. The fact that he and Tony Cade almost got into fisticuffs tells us that he kinda failed at the personality aspect. I don't even want to begin to think what the ramifications of that would have been with the whole Leach/Mangino firings.

The second issue is that I listed games played on defense, not games started. Shelby is a perfect example of this concept, he was exclusively used as a dime/nickel back for most of those games. Poteat was similar his senior year. This doesn't include guys like Bassey and Carter who were thrust into starting roles that they weren't ready for and their performance suffered.

[Augusta_Sooner]

The problem is that you are discounting the concept of a pipeline. You see, 4 years after a recruiting class OU continues to play football. To say that he struck gold in 1999 is factual. To say that he didn't have any problems recruiting when in 2004 we had 3 defensive backs in spring practice is where you are struggling. While Stoops is not responsible for guys like Thompson (although Simms was an injury risk in juco), he is FULLY responsible for guys like Hawkins. Whether someone can hack it in college AND be able to handle your coaching style is part of the recruiting process. The fact that he and Tony Cade almost got into fisticuffs tells us that he kinda failed at the personality aspect. I don't even want to begin to think what the ramifications of that would have been with the whole Leach/Mangino firings.

The second issue is that I listed games played on defense, not games started. Shelby is a perfect example of this concept, he was exclusively used as a dime/nickel back for most of those games. Poteat was similar his senior year. This doesn't include guys like Bassey and Carter who were thrust into starting roles that they weren't ready for and their performance suffered.

Did it ever occur to you that recruits saw their chances of starting in front of Strait, Thompson and Everage were slim to none and maybe that's why some guys didn't come to OU? If you were a recruit looking at OU's depth chart in '00, you would have seen 3 guys starting now and for at least the next 2 years. Would you want to sit the bench for 2-3 yrs? Yes, Holmes was recruited to play WR; that's why he played WR for at least 2 yrs before moving to defense. If the coaches were on the fence about whether or not Holmes was a WR or DB, it wouldn't have taken them 2 yrs to figure that out. He got moved to DB because he couldn't beat out the WRs in front of him such as Iglesias, Johnson and Kelley, not because there was a chance he'd play DB. That makes no sense. 2 of those guys were NFL draft picks. Oh yeah, he couldn't catch either. He took a chance on Hawkins and it didn't work out, sometimes that happens.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Alabama, LSU, USC and other top programs do not or did not have that problem...Usually players want to go to a school turning out great players at their position...No excuse for 3

[sooneron]

In BCS title games, OU's spread offenses have only scored, 13, 14, 19 and 14 pts. repsectively for an avg of 15 pts per game, depsite all the great players OU had on offense in those games. Look back at all the nat'l award winners, All-Americans, All-Big 12 players, NFL draft picks, etc. who played on those offenses. Yet, against some of the best defenses, they only averaged 15 pts per game in BCS title games running a spread offense. That shows you that the best DC/defenses can stop these offenses.

In the case of the scores of 13, 14, & the other 14, a lot could be made of the starting qb's health.

Josh was beat to hell in the 01 OB and had surgery shortly after- his production had been waning... The same for Jason in NO '04 (his throwing motion was totally off in the champ game). Sam picked up his Heisman (IIRC) with a cast on his hand, but Stoops said he was "good to play".

Coincidentally, that 03/04 lsu defensive backfield was all senior and had 3 guys that played in the nfl at one time and one that is still producing. It was one of the best that I had ever seen.
Our 04 offense **** the bed in miami.

[Augusta_Sooner]

In the case of the scores of 13, 14, & the other 14, a lot could be made of the starting qb's health.

Josh was beat to hell in the 01 OB and had surgery shortly after- his production had been waning... The same for Jason in NO '04 (his throwing motion was totally off in the champ game). Sam picked up his Heisman (IIRC) with a cast on his hand, but Stoops said he was "good to play".

Coincidentally, that 03/04 lsu defensive backfield was all senior and had 3 guys that played in the nfl at one time and one that is still producing. It was one of the best that I had ever seen.
Our 04 offense **** the bed in miami.

Josh & co. managed to score 27 pts. in the Big 12 Title Game against KSU - their last game before playing FSU a month later. Perhaps FSU's defense had something to do with OU's low scoring output as well? In the last regular season game agains oSu, the offense only scored 10 pts. I think OU played conservatively after going up 10-0 and it almost cost them. As for Bradford, OU still scored 62 pt against Mizzou in the Big 12 title game despite the injury to his non-throwing hand a week earlier. He wore a cast after the surgery, which was during the Heisman presentation. However, the cast was gone and he was healthy for the Florida game. Wilson cost OU that game by slowing down in the red zone and allowing Florida to make subs, catch their breath and get lined up correctly. OU drove up and down the field in the 2 qtr when they went hurry-up no huddle, but Wilson took his foot off the gas when OU got in the red zone and I think that cost them the game.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Did it ever occur to you that recruits saw their chances of starting in front of Strait, Thompson and Everage were slim to none and maybe that's why some guys didn't come to OU?

There are 2 points to be made here:

1. This is a red herring. I'm not talking about the guy who didn't come, I'm talking about the ones that did and then immediately bailed. If that person leaves because they won't play immediately then this is either 100% on the position coach for misevaluation or it means they were lied to during the recruiting process. Defensive back has a maximum of 22 allotted commitments over a 5 year period. This is decreased if you have players who stick around for 5 years. Because of injuries, you can't afford to take a throw it against the wall and see what sticks approach. Over a 5 year span, he had 8 players play more than 3 years of which 4 were career backups.

2. Not a single one of those guys you listed was a "heralded" recruit. They were evaluated and found. The difference was that we didn't try very hard after that first class.


If you were a recruit looking at OU's depth chart in '00, you would have seen 3 guys starting now and for at least the next 2 years. Would you want to sit the bench for 2-3 yrs?

Let me turn this around on you. In the summer of 2005, we had 3 highly touted QBs on campus. Pretty much all of the highly recruited QBs said no way so we went out and offered a legacy kid during our summer camp just as insurance (pretty much the same reasoning the year before done by Texas with a lesser known recruit named Colt McCoy). Bradford committed, came to OU, crap happened (Grady Transferred, Bomar Bomared, Nichol Nicholed) the rest is history.


Yes, Holmes was recruited to play WR; that's why he played WR for at least 2 yrs before moving to defense. If the coaches were on the fence about whether or not Holmes was a WR or DB, it wouldn't have taken them 2 yrs to figure that out. He got moved to DB because he couldn't beat out the WRs in front of him such as Iglesias, Johnson and Kelley, not because there was a chance he'd play DB. That makes no sense. 2 of those guys were NFL draft picks. Oh yeah, he couldn't catch either. He took a chance on Hawkins and it didn't work out, sometimes that happens.

Lendy Holmes redshirted and then played 6 games at WR before he was switched to DB. This was in 2005 when we had zero knowledge of what we had at WR since we graduated 3 starters.

[Augusta_Sooner]

There are 2 points to be made here:

1. This is a red herring. I'm not talking about the guy who didn't come, I'm talking about the ones that did and then immediately bailed. If that person leaves because they won't play immediately then this is either 100% on the position coach for misevaluation or it means they were lied to during the recruiting process. Defensive back has a maximum of 22 allotted commitments over a 5 year period. This is decreased if you have players who stick around for 5 years. Because of injuries, you can't afford to take a throw it against the wall and see what sticks approach. Over a 5 year span, he had 8 players play more than 3 years of which 4 were career backups.

2. Not a single one of those guys you listed was a "heralded" recruit. They were evaluated and found. The difference was that we didn't try very hard after that first class.



Let me turn this around on you. In the summer of 2005, we had 3 highly touted QBs on campus. Pretty much all of the highly recruited QBs said no way so we went out and offered a legacy kid during our summer camp just as insurance (pretty much the same reasoning the year before done by Texas with a lesser known recruit named Colt McCoy). Bradford committed, came to OU, crap happened (Grady Transferred, Bomar Bomared, Nichol Nicholed) the rest is history.



Lendy Holmes redshirted and then played 6 games at WR before he was switched to DB. This was in 2005 when we had zero knowledge of what we had at WR since we graduated 3 starters.

Check your facts my friend, Lendy Holmes played the entire 2005 season at WR. In fact, his only receptions (2) were against Texas A&M on November 12, 2005......9th game of the year. The '05 team had Kelly (sophomore) and the #1 WR in Texas coming out of HS, T. Wilson (Sr.) and Iglesias (Freshman). So, I'm pretty sure the coaches knew what they had at WR moving forward with Kelly and Iglesias. I mean, they were only future NFL draft picks and all, nothing special........Here's a couple of links if you need a refersher:

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=253160201
http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/holmes_lendy00.html

I believe Holmes was switched to DB at fall practice for the '06 season.

Don't know what you're trying prove with your second point other than reinforce what I said earlier in that sometimes big time recruits are not willing to sit on the bench for 2-3 yrs. Fortunately for OU, Bradford turned out to be much better than anticipated as he was offered late in the recruiting process.

Tell me who exactly was not a "heralded recruit"? Sure seems like OU got their fair share of 4 star players during this time.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Check your facts my friend, Lendy Holmes played the entire 2005 season at WR. In fact, his only receptions (2) were against Texas A&M on November 12, 2005......9th game of the year. The '05 team had Kelly (sophomore) and the #1 WR in Texas coming out of HS, T. Wilson (Sr.) and Iglesias (Freshman). So, I'm pretty sure the coaches knew what they had at WR moving forward with Kelly and Iglesias. I mean, they were only future NFL draft picks and all, nothing special........Here's a couple of links if you need a refersher:

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=253160201
http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/holmes_lendy00.html

I believe Holmes was switched to DB at fall practice for the '06 season.

Don't know what you're trying prove with your second point other than reinforce what I said earlier in that sometimes big time recruits are not willing to sit on the bench for 2-3 yrs. Fortunately for OU, Bradford turned out to be much better than anticipated as he was offered late in the recruiting process.

Tell me who exactly was not a "heralded recruit"? Sure seems like OU got their fair share of 4 star players during this time.

The 6 games were from the participation reports. That means he got into 6 games. I didn't say he played the first 6 games.

Kelly and Iglesias were TR FR in 2005 (Kelly was drafted as a TR JR in 2007, Iglesias in 2008). Neither was here for spring ball so the coaches had NO CLUE what they had going into that season.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Tell me who exactly was not a "heralded recruit"? Sure seems like OU got their fair share of 4 star players during this time.

This is going to be a long list () Denotes draft picks from that class ABOVE 3 stars:
1999
Josh Heupel
Derrick Strait
Quentin Griffin

2000
Dan Cody
Antonio Perkins
Jimmy Wilkerson
Mark Clayton
Teddy Lehman
(Jammal Brown)

2001
Chris Chester
Dusty Dvoracek
(Tommie Harris)
(Brandon Jones)

2002 - This was the year that rivals totally flooded stars.
JD Runnells
Mark Bradley
(Davin Joseph)
(Brodney Pool)
(Rufus Alexander)

2003
Tashard Choice - Observational, Don't think Bomar was drafted, but he'd be on this list as an above
(Nicholson)

2004
Garrett Hartley
(Adrian Peterson)

2005
Auston English
Juaquin Iglesias
Brian Jackson
(Reggie Smith)
(Malcolm Kelly)
(CJ Ah You)
(Curtis Lofton)
(Duke Robinson)
(Nic Harris)

2006
Sam Bradford
Quinton Carter
Trent Williams
(Jeremy Beal)
(Jermaine Gresham)
(Demarco Murray)

[sooneron]

Josh & co. managed to score 27 pts. in the Big 12 Title Game against KSU - their last game before playing FSU a month later. Perhaps FSU's defense had something to do with OU's low scoring output as well?

Which is 14 points less than what we scored in Manhattan. Like I said, "Waning". Go back and look at Josh's numbers as that season went along.


In the last regular season game agains oSu, the offense only scored 10 pts. I think OU played conservatively after going up 10-0 and it almost cost them.

10 points? That is REALLY conservative.


As for Bradford, OU still scored 62 pt against Mizzou in the Big 12 title game despite the injury to his non-throwing hand a week earlier. He wore a cast after the surgery, which was during the Heisman presentation. However, the cast was gone and he was healthy for the Florida game.

Ok, I'll grant you that Sam was healthier than I recalled.


Wilson cost OU that game by slowing down in the red zone and allowing Florida to make subs, catch their breath and get lined up correctly. OU drove up and down the field in the 2 qtr when they went hurry-up no huddle, but Wilson took his foot off the gas when OU got in the red zone and I think that cost them the game.
Ok, so is it UFla's awesome D or Wilson taking his foot off the gas and brainfarting?

[C&CDean]

Oh dear God make it all stop. Who the hell is this crimson dildondo anyhow?

[Augusta_Sooner]

The 6 games were from the participation reports. That means he got into 6 games. I didn't say he played the first 6 games.

Kelly and Iglesias were TR FR in 2005 (Kelly was drafted as a TR JR in 2007, Iglesias in 2008). Neither was here for spring ball so the coaches had NO CLUE what they had going into that season.

Check your facts again.....Kelly was drafted in 2008 (rookie year w/Redskins), not 2007; Iglesias in 2009 (rookie year w/Bears), not 2008. How could Kelly be drafted in 2007 when he played for OU in 2007? How could Iglesias be drafted in 2008 when he played for OU in 2008?

[Augusta_Sooner]

Alabama, LSU, USC and other top programs do not or did not have that problem...Usually players want to go to a school turning out great players at their position...No excuse for 3

Under Mike Stoops, when did OU start producing NFL picks, high draft picks (at least 1st/2nd/3rd rd) from their secondary? Not until '01 and '02 with Williams and Strait. This means the '03/'04 recruits were in high school watching these guys on TV and then watched them get drafted early in the NFL. As a result, they wanted to play for OU and Mike Stoops because he was "turning out great players". He didn't have "recruiting problems". So, let's take a look at those '03/'04 recruits who came to OU to "go to a school turning out great players at their position":

Jason Carter - 4 star, top 10 CB in the nation

Michael Hawkins - 4 star, SuperPrep All-American, "I love the coaches at Oklahoma," he says now. "They were hard on me because they wanted me to fulfill my potential. I didn't realize that."

Chijioke O. - 5 star recruit out of JUCO

Darien Williams - 4 star, top 10 CB in the nation

Tony Cade - 4 star safety

Brodney Pool - 4 star safety

Where is the recruiting problem?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Check your facts again.....Kelly was drafted in 2008 (rookie year w/Redskins), not 2007; Iglesias in 2009 (rookie year w/Bears), not 2008. How could Kelly be drafted in 2007 when he played for OU in 2007? How could Iglesias be drafted in 2008 when he played for OU in 2008?

Sigh. OU plays in the fall, the draft is in the spring. Thus when I say that Kelly was drafted as a TR JR in 2007 that was the year he played for OU (Fall 2007, Spring 2008). You had him playing as a sophomore in 2005, not I.

[NormanPride]

Under Mike Stoops, when did OU start producing NFL picks, high draft picks (at least 1st/2nd/3rd rd) from their secondary? Not until '01 and '02 with Williams and Strait. This means the '03/'04 recruits were in high school watching these guys on TV and then watched them get drafted early in the NFL. As a result, they wanted to play for OU and Mike Stoops because he was "turning out great players". He didn't have "recruiting problems". So, let's take a look at those '03/'04 recruits who came to OU to "go to a school turning out great players at their position":

Jason Carter - 4 star, top 10 CB in the nation

Michael Hawkins - 4 star, SuperPrep All-American, "I love the coaches at Oklahoma," he says now. "They were hard on me because they wanted me to fulfill my potential. I didn't realize that."

Chijioke O. - 5 star recruit out of JUCO

Darien Williams - 4 star, top 10 CB in the nation

Tony Cade - 4 star safety

Brodney Pool - 4 star safety

Where is the recruiting problem?

Why do stars matter? Only one of those guys was any good and two were run off.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

If our recruiters are using the scouting websites for their evaluations, that explains a lot..

[NormanPride]

Yeah, that's what Larry Coker was doing, and he was terrible. I really, REALLY hope our coaches are not that stupid.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Under Mike Stoops, when did OU start producing NFL picks, high draft picks (at least 1st/2nd/3rd rd) from their secondary? Not until '01 and '02 with Williams and Strait. This means the '03/'04 recruits were in high school watching these guys on TV and then watched them get drafted early in the NFL. As a result, they wanted to play for OU and Mike Stoops because he was "turning out great players". He didn't have "recruiting problems". So, let's take a look at those '03/'04 recruits who came to OU to "go to a school turning out great players at their position":

Jason Carter - 4 star, top 10 CB in the nation

Michael Hawkins - 4 star, SuperPrep All-American, "I love the coaches at Oklahoma," he says now. "They were hard on me because they wanted me to fulfill my potential. I didn't realize that."

Chijioke O. - 5 star recruit out of JUCO

Darien Williams - 4 star, top 10 CB in the nation

Tony Cade - 4 star safety

Brodney Pool - 4 star safety

Where is the recruiting problem?

The recruiting problem is that he let Rivals do his evaluation for him.

1. 2002 rivals gave out 4 stars to EVERYONE. It wasn't until 2003 that they exercised a little discipline and made it 5 star top 25/4 star top 100. Even so, Pool was considered the "other guy" in that class with Hawkins and Chijioke the stars.

2. Hawkins may have been the most talented CB we ever recruited EXCEPT he pulled a Marcus Dupree and left after 6 games while STARTING. Yes he was drafted by the Packers, but I'm not sure he lasted much time at all there.

3. Cade got into a fight with his position coach.

4. Williams/Carter/Onyenegecha were average college performers with Williams/Carter having above average Senior years. Honestly there isn't anything wrong with this if you have a constant pipeline of seniors playing.

5. Brodney being Brodney. He was good for 2 years here and then left as an Early Entrant.

[goingoneight]

While a little discipline would be great in place of these yearly brainfarts our team has, remember Saint Mike had the same problems as a head coach as he did at OU as far as keeping his locker room.

[Augusta_Sooner]

Sigh. OU plays in the fall, the draft is in the spring. Thus when I say that Kelly was drafted as a TR JR in 2007 that was the year he played for OU (Fall 2007, Spring 2008). You had him playing as a sophomore in 2005, not I.

Funny how all of your answers mean something else.....I knew you'd change your aswer to "that was the year he played". Nice cop out.

[Augusta_Sooner]

The recruiting problem is that he let Rivals do his evaluation for him.

1. 2002 rivals gave out 4 stars to EVERYONE. It wasn't until 2003 that they exercised a little discipline and made it 5 star top 25/4 star top 100. Even so, Pool was considered the "other guy" in that class with Hawkins and Chijioke the stars.

2. Hawkins may have been the most talented CB we ever recruited EXCEPT he pulled a Marcus Dupree and left after 6 games while STARTING. Yes he was drafted by the Packers, but I'm not sure he lasted much time at all there.

3. Cade got into a fight with his position coach.

4. Williams/Carter/Onyenegecha were average college performers with Williams/Carter having above average Senior years. Honestly there isn't anything wrong with this if you have a constant pipeline of seniors playing.

5. Brodney being Brodney. He was good for 2 years here and then left as an Early Entrant.

Those players were highly recruited and you know so. More than one recruiting site listed them as such. Nice try though. Were you disappointed when those 4 star players committed to OU? Of course not. You, like everyone else, was happy to see OU sign those players. By your standard Cale Gundy has recruiting problems as well since 2 of his RBs decided to transfer at year's end. Why is that Johnny 5 star (Calhoun) and Johnny 4 star (Miller) couldn't beat out the walk-on transfer, back up RB from Langston, an NAIA school? Did he recruit 2 players who didn't possess the work ethic needed to succeed at OU? Sounds like it. But remember, they were 5 and 4 star guys and in fact, Calhoun was considered the #1 or #2 RB in the nation......according to recruiting sites. Again, you were just as happy as anyone to see OU get Calhoun. Does their transfers mean Gundy is in the same boat as Mike Stoops? Why couldn't he get at least one them (with 9 stars between them) to start in front of Whaley? I'm glad to see Whaley get a full ride after working so hard for the past 2 years or so; he deserves it. But what does that say about Calhoun and Miller? After those 2 RBs decided to transfer, that left OU with a 5'6", 166 lbs. RB (Finch) and an avg size RB who can't break tackes (Clay) to back up Whaley. Not exactly RB U material. What does that say about Gundy? The 4th guy is a true freshmen who has fumbling issues and was not expected to make an impact this year. But wait...Williams was a 5 star....how did you feel when committed to OU? Just like everyone else, you thought, "He's a 5 star RB, that's great." It's easy to Monday Morning QB everything after the fact. The point is that you, like everyone else, have nothing to base your recruiting opinions on, at least initially, except for the recruiting services that rank them and evaluations by the OU staff. If you and STEP are such recruiting gurus, perhaps you should call Bob Stoops and offer your recruiting expertise. Better yet, start your own recruiting site and create your own star system. Having 10,000+ posts on an Internet message board does not make you a football/recruiting expert.

[NormanPride]

Oh man, that is a ton of butthurt. Also you are completely wrong in every sense.

First off, Gundy (prior to this year) had a really good hit rate on RBs. Even the backups turned into good players when the starters left early or got injured. Even this year, when we lost two players to transfer and a starter to injury, we still had THREE GUYS that could all play. That's great recruiting right there. Second, the value of a recruit has absolutely nothing to do with hype or stars or score or whatever. It has to do with how well they contributed while at school. For this, we HAVE to look at recruiting after the fact and deduce trends. Thus, when a coach consistently runs off or misses on 3-4 guys in every class they are a terrible recruiter, no matter how many stars they bring in.

Question. If we had a coach that brought in four top-ranked players every year, yet none of them ever played a down, would that coach be a good or bad recruiter?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

. Better yet, start your own recruiting site and create your own star system. Having 10,000+ posts on an Internet message board does not make you a football/recruiting expert.

I've done talent evaluation for 4 NFL teams and a couple of draft companies...It's a better paycheck than a website.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

"You guys don't know what you are talking about..You are on a message board arguing!" says the guy arguing on the message board.

[Augusta_Sooner]

Oh man, that is a ton of butthurt. Also you are completely wrong in every sense.

First off, Gundy (prior to this year) had a really good hit rate on RBs. Even the backups turned into good players when the starters left early or got injured. Even this year, when we lost two players to transfer and a starter to injury, we still had THREE GUYS that could all play. That's great recruiting right there. Second, the value of a recruit has absolutely nothing to do with hype or stars or score or whatever. It has to do with how well they contributed while at school. For this, we HAVE to look at recruiting after the fact and deduce trends. Thus, when a coach consistently runs off or misses on 3-4 guys in every class they are a terrible recruiter, no matter how many stars they bring in.

Question. If we had a coach that brought in four top-ranked players every year, yet none of them ever played a down, would that coach be a good or bad recruiter?

First of all, I said intial opinions regarding recruits by fans are usually formed by how those players are ranked by recruiting sites and the staff evaluations. If stars or however recruits are categorized don't matter, then would you be happy if OU could only pull in nothing but 1 and 2 star guys? At first, you would be disappointed wouldn't you? But if those guys panned out to be good palyers, then you change your opion. But don't think for a minute that fans who follow recruiting don't pay attention, at least to some degree, to recruiting rankings. Don't you think the recruiting rankings usually correlate with how well that school performs over the long haul? This may come as a surprise to you, but every school loses players to transfers.

Also, I wouldn't say that "we still had THREE GUYS can play." If so, why is it that fans and posters realize that while Finch runs extremely hard for a guy his size, he's limited to the amount of touches due to his lack of size? Why do some fans and posters (as mentioned earlier in this thread) realize that Clay usually gets tackled by the first defender? Does that sound like guys who can play to you? I'm not the first to say it, go back a page or so and read what others have to say. Who's the 3rd guy? Williams? Like I mentioned above......fumble issues. He's not ready right now. Maybe next year. Those are your "THREE GUYS" that could all play? Keep telling yourself that. If that's the case, why is it that lately when OU gets deep in the red zone, they've basically stopped running with those "THREE GUYS" and have decided to run it in with the backup QB? It's called a lack of power and ability to break tackes by our RBs. Oh, and the coaches don't trust Williams to hold on to the ball.

[Augusta_Sooner]

Like I said, offer your expertise to OU......oh, you realize you don't always get the benefit of hindisght, right?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

It's a message board..Isn't everything discussed in hindsight? Not many psychics here..

[NormanPride]

First of all, I said intial opinions regarding recruits by fans are usually formed by how those players are ranked by recruiting sites and the staff evaluations. If stars or however recruits are categorized don't matter, then would you be happy if OU could only pull in nothing but 1 and 2 star guys? At first, you would be disappointed wouldn't you? But if those guys panned out to be good palyers, then you change your opion. But don't think for a minute that fans who follow recruiting don't pay attention, at least to some degree, to recruiting rankings. Don't you think the recruiting rankings usually correlate with how well that school performs over the long haul? This may come as a surprise to you, but every school loses players to transfers.

Also, I wouldn't say that "we still had THREE GUYS can play." If so, why is it that fans and posters realize that while Finch runs extremely hard for a guy his size, he's limited to the amount of touches due to his lack of size? Why do some fans and posters (as mentioned earlier in this thread) realize that Clay usually gets tackled by the first defender? Does that sound like guys who can play to you? I'm not the first to say it, go back a page or so and read what others have to say. Who's the 3rd guy? Williams? Like I mentioned above......fumble issues. He's not ready right now. Maybe next year. Those are your "THREE GUYS" that could all play? Keep telling yourself that. If that's the case, why is it that lately when OU gets deep in the red zone, they've basically stopped running with those "THREE GUYS" and have decided to run it in with the backup QB? It's called a lack of power and ability to break tackes by our RBs. Oh, and the coaches don't trust Williams to hold on to the ball.

Because Finch averaged 5.7 yards per carry, and Williams averaged 4.8. They suck right? Completely terrible running game. Not to mention they were both used in the passing game. We ran Finch 26 times against A&M and I don't remember him being gassed or looking bad in that game. You are wrong, again, on every point.

And what exactly is your point about the 1&2 star recruiting? That fans would be mad? Who the hell cares? And yes, I wouldn't really say team success relates to # of stars on the team. Look at Texas! Hell, look at Miami and Florida for that matter. They're all loaded with "talent" and have terrible football teams. Then look at Boise State, Wisconsin, Stanford, Clemson, etc. They have a few top tier guys, sure, but the bulk of their team resides squarely in the 2-4 star range. In other words, coaches need to evaluate talent rather than listening to hooting blowhards that talk about stars and 40 times.

[sooneron]

Augusta, don't go away mad, just go away...

[70sooner]

In other words, coaches need to evaluate talent rather than listening to hooting blowhards that talk about stars and 40 times.


this!

[C&CDean]

How did I miss them gem? "Augusta Sooner?" Could it be our soonerfromgeorgia dillweed? Same MO. Same ignorant deal. Same POS state.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Just reading for some laughs.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

And RIP Mama.

[8timechamps]

RIP Mama

[birddog]

Yeah, what the last 2 doods said. I miss her posting here.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

there was a lot of prognostication in this thread. makes me sad

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Texas Tech went from averaging 250 passing yards per game against the Sooners when Mike Stoops was at Oklahoma to 350 passing yards per game since Brent Vulnerables took over. And Texas Tech was already performing well offensively at that time, so it's not merely a factor of them getting even better over the years.


I guess that BV was the guest coordinator for the last game then..394 and 4TDs

[badger]

Even though its been said it already... RIP Mama Mia