The SEC Domination Of College Football Will Soon Be Coming To An End

[FaninAma]

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/03/sec-presidents-vote-to-reduce-signing-limit-to-25-nick-saban-blows-a-gasket/

I expect to start seeing the effects within the next 2 years.

[Sabanball]

This is OLD news...but at least you are acknowledging that the SEC HAS BEEN the dominate conference.

I'll repeat it again--oversigning is NOT against the rules and it will continue.

[FaninAma]

I bet Alabama does not sign an average of 28.25 players a year like they have for the past 4 years(compared to 22.75 for OU)

If you don't think the new limits will have an effect you are stupid. But I will agree with you, if there is a way that Saban can unethically, but legally, skirt the intended goals of any rule he will do it. Its just that now it will be a lot harder.

[badger]

I'll repeat it again--oversigning is NOT against the rules and it will continue.

It's against YOUR rules now :D

and yeah, it will impact your, or Nick Satan wouldn't have raised a big stink about it.

My guess is that SEC schools will take less chances on talented, but marginally academic athletes and go after more sure-qualifier status players if they have only 25 to give.

Or, they start writing it into their scholarship offer letters that they can only take 25 and we have the right to rescind this offer at any time up till signing day (I think many already do this).

[Sabanball]

I bet Alabama does not sign an average of 28.25 players a year like they have for the past 4 years(compared to 22.75 for OU)If you don't think the new limits will have an effect you are stupid. But I will agree with you, if there is a way that Saban can unethically, but legally, skirt the intended goals of any rule he will do it. Its just that now it will be a lot harder.

We currently have 21 signees for 2012 and about 6-7 more left on our board that are expected to sign. I fully expect us to actually sign 26-28 players, maybe even one more if we can flip Jameis Winston. But at the end of the day, I'm confident with 4 back-counters we will be ok and within the SEC rules.

Again, with attrition you are stupid NOT to oversign.

[smackramensooner]

Again, with attrition you are stupid NOT to oversign.

I hope this guy has a kid who gets signed by an SEC school and then gets grayshirted, that way the coach can tell him, "Hey, you'd be stupid NOT to screw people over this way!"

[Jacie]

I saw the title and thought it was because the SEC admitted a&m and misery to the league . . .

[sooneredaco]

I saw the title and thought it was because the SEC admitted a&m and misery to the league . . .

Bawhahahahaha!
That's a knee slapper!

And I'm sure Saban will find a way around it. And I don't fault him for it . If you can find a way to gain an advantage that is not against a rule or find a way to go around it, hey why not.

Guess that's why they have the last 6 titles. It sucks but it's true

[8timechamps]

It's all cyclical anyway. I remember when the Big 8 was the badass on the play ground. Whether it's over-signing or not, it's only a matter of time.

[Jacie]

It's all cyclical anyway. I remember when the Big 8 was the badass on the play ground. Whether it's over-signing or not, it's only a matter of time.

There was no such thing as oversigning when the Big 8 was in existance

[Sabanball]

There was no such thing as oversigning when the Big 8 was in existance

Lol...you're right. Back then Switzer could sign 125 players and some of them just to keep them from going to Okie St or Texas.

[budbarrybob]

Lol...you're right. Back then Switzer could sign 125 players and some of them just to keep them from going to Okie St or Texas.
He was mearly trying to keep the uninformed from making a grave mistake

[jkjsooner]

Again, with attrition you are stupid NOT to oversign.

You do realize that 25*4 > 85 and 25*5 >> 85, right?

You don't have to sign over 25 every year to cover attrition.

[Rocko]

You do realize that 25*4 > 85 and 25*5 >> 85, right?

You don't have to sign over 25 every year to cover attrition.

Alabama only began implementing those radical "math" courses a few years back. They're rather backwards down there.

[jkjsooner]

Scholarships are a 1 year deal. I don't blame schools for over signing. OU can't really do it to the extent of some schools. It appears OU will be doing some"extra signing" this year, though.

They're one year deals until they become no year deals. Greyshirting means the kid never actually gets the scholarhip he signed for.

And, for the record, that paper that greyshirted kid signed is binding for him. Once he signs he can't go to another school without sitting out a year - even if that scholarship never materializes.

And, by the way, schools can now offer 4 year scholarships. If kids know this at the time the offer is extended, they're going to think twice before going to a big-time school is isn't offering the 4 years.

[TulsaSooners]

It's really a wonder to me that the SEC is able to win at the rate that they do, especially considering the recruiting talent that permeates that conference. It is not rare to see half of the top 20 incoming recruiting classes come from that conference. You would think that they'd have to have years where no one can go above 10-2 at best, and thus other conferences could beat each other in the MNC with the SEC excluded.

For awhile I liked Stoops' logic of remaining in the Big whatever, coasting to the MNC, and hoping to avoid an SEC team, but I'm now starting to think that there is a great deal of merit and recruiting appeal in playing big games week in and week out and coming out battle-tested as a result.

[soonerhubs]

They're one year deals until they become no year deals. Greyshirting means the kid never actually gets the scholarhip he signed for.

And, for the record, that paper that greyshirted kid signed is binding for him. Once he signs he can't go to another school without sitting out a year - even if that scholarship never materializes.

And, by the way, schools can now offer 4 year scholarships. If kids know this at the time the offer is extended, they're going to think twice before going to a big-time school is isn't offering the 4 years.

I agree 100%, but I'm sure our troll who considers his coach of the highest ethics will call us crybabies for pointing this out.


You're stupid not to manipulate and sabotage the futures of naive student athletes!

Attrition, eh? The facts remain: Many of these programs (LSU and Bama) put the actual academic futures of their athletes on the back burner in order to make more money by winning.

"Oh, well he didn't pan out so we gave him a grey shirt and now he's stuck here with no financial support even though I promised it to him."

Hurray for winning at all costs, including the success of the student athletes who put it all on the line for a chance to eventually make it big in the NFL.

The SEC is nothing less than a magnified example of the metaphors perpetuated by Stone and Parker this past year on an episode of their animated satire. So keep on thumping that chest *********ball while other programs actually practice a thing called integrity (making and keeping promises of scholarships).

[Note: There were some big words used in this rant, so if someone can dumb it down for the benefit of Les, Nick, and his followers, it would be much appreciated.]

[SoonerAtKU]

Attrition is one thing. Forced attrition to make way for more productive players is quite another.

The problem is, it's too easy to recruit a star 18 year old and convince him he'll never have to worry, because he's going to be the guy and someone else is going to have to give up their spot for his incredible talent. Then, if you negatively recruit and mention Saban's history, the player has to think "What, you don't think I'm good enough to beat out those other guys? Why should I sign with someone who doesn't believe in my talent?"

[cleller]

I think the SEC will still manage to do pretty well.

[SoonerTerry]

This is OLD news...but at least you are acknowledging that the SEC HAS BEEN the dominate conference.

I'll repeat it again--oversigning is NOT against the rules and it will continue.

You really are not on the right side of this arguement. Wins are not more important that the future of the kids playing the game.

[Neath a Western Sky]

And who is going to take over the domination? Coach Stoops? The man who was surprised to learn at halftime of the OSU blowout that we were passing too much? The man who said our one decent offensive play of the game (Bell's TD run) was not a real touchdown because it came against OSU scrubs--when it was actually our scrubs against their first team? The man whose defenses got lit up the second half of the season? The man who as other posters on other threads well said "looked lost for the first time this season"--after 13 years in the saddle? We'll see if that's who takes over domination from the SEC. We'll see if the QB job is a competition this spring even if Landry comes back. We'll see what happens if Stoops doesn't take action with his staff. We'll see a lot of things.

[Sooner_Tuf]

Lol...you're right. Back then Switzer could sign 125 players and some of them just to keep them from going to Okie St or Texas.

Somebody wanted to go to Oklahoma State?

[oSuJeff1997]

I think the SEC will still manage to do pretty well.

Yes, they will, but I would argue that oversigning pays the most dividends on arguably the highest impact position group in college football (when it comes to winning championships): the defensive line.

There are so few high-impact defensive linemen out there because you never know, even among the highly recruited, which of them will pan out. Oversigning - especially at schools like LSU and Alabama - give you that much more of a chance to land an actual high-impact defensive lineman... and both schools have certainly done that year over year as they sign 3-5 more people than schools in the Big 12, Big 10, etc.

[NormanPride]

The addition of a four year scholarship is huge, and I predict it will really change the way the talent is distributed in D1.

[jkjsooner]

The addition of a four year scholarship is huge, and I predict it will really change the way the talent is distributed in D1.

I agree but only if the four year scholarship is guaranteed at signing time. Obviously one would think this would be the case but the fact that greyshirting exists means that nothing is actually guaranteed at signing time.


Frankly, I'd be in favor of upping the scholly limit to 95 players but removing oversigning entirely from the equation. You can only have 95 LOI's (including those who may have received a scholly later in their career) over any four year rolling window.

If a serious career ending injury leaves a player unable to play (and by unable I don't mean less effective) then the school can petition to get that scholarship removed from the rolling four year window. The petition would be handled in a similar manner as petitioning for a fifth year of eligibility.

If a guy isn't working out then, well, then the coach can remove theh player from the team and revoke his scholarship but he doesn't get that scholarship back. That's why we're giving the buffer of 10 extra players. Same if a guy voluntarily leaves.


My guess is that if you instituted something like this and you set the scholarship limit to the right setting, you could essentially have an average players under active scholarship right at 85 but you would remove any incentive for coaches to abuse the system.

[Sabanball]

With respect to my kind OU brethren : Please concentrate on just beating the OSU's and Baylors of the world before worrying about the SEC. Get some defense, then give us a call.

Roll Tide, y'all....

[Peach Fuzz]

score some touchdowns and dont give up 30+ points to fcs programs.

[mainline13]

And who is going to take over the domination? Coach Stoops? The man who was surprised to learn at halftime of the OSU blowout that we were passing too much? The man who said our one decent offensive play of the game (Bell's TD run) was not a real touchdown because it came against OSU scrubs--when it was actually our scrubs against their first team? The man whose defenses got lit up the second half of the season? The man who as other posters on other threads well said "looked lost for the first time this season"--after 13 years in the saddle? We'll see if that's who takes over domination from the SEC. We'll see if the QB job is a competition this spring even if Landry comes back. We'll see what happens if Stoops doesn't take action with his staff. We'll see a lot of things.

Let us know what team you'll be a fan of next, 'K?

[zeke]

How many does OU sign?

[Sinyeah12]

With respect to my kind OU brethren : Please concentrate on just beating the OSU's and Baylors of the world before worrying about the SEC. Get some defense, then give us a call.

Roll Tide, y'all....

This is quite comical really. Baylor get's their first win ever against OU this year, and OSU has 16 wins in 104 games against OU. I think OU will be ok. Just remember, Saban doesn't have a history of longevity. I'm sure his ego is already thinking about his next head coaching job.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

This is OLD news...but at least you are acknowledging that the SEC HAS BEEN the dominate conference.

I'll repeat it again--oversigning is NOT against the rules and it will continue.

But is it ethical to tell someone after the offer is made, uhmmm, yeah, about that scholarship...

[delhalew]

But is it ethical to tell someone after the offer is made, uhmmm, yeah, about that scholarship...

That contract is binding for the recruit. Not so much for the Sabans of the world. If another recruit hits a growth spurt, you could be gone, or suddenly be "injured". How many of our guys have been allowed to heal and come back? If you played for Saban, you may never get that opportunity.

[soonerbub]

With respect to my kind OU brethren : Please concentrate on just beating the OSU's and Baylors of the world before worrying about the SEC. Get some defense, then give us a call.

Roll Tide, y'all....

Come January 10th your trophy case for 2011 will be as empty as ours (unless we pull off an Insight Bowl victory)

[soonerhubs]

With respect to my kind OU brethren : Please concentrate on just beating the OSU's and Baylors of the world before worrying about the SEC. Get some defense, then give us a call.

Roll Tide, y'all....




I don't have any legitimate argument against the paucity of ethics Nick Saban displays so I will just avoid the topic altogether with this little Red Herring.

...

[Peach Fuzz]

I'd also like to see how allahbama would do against an offense that had half a turd-brain.

[StoopTroup]

With respect to my kind OU brethren : Please concentrate on just beating the OSU's and Baylors of the world before worrying about the SEC. Get some defense, then give us a call.

Roll Tide, y'all....

Funny how you flipped to insults when folks called you on your BS.

[8timechamps]

You really are not on the right side of this arguement. Wins are not more important that the future of the kids playing the game.

Not to people that see the world away from the football field. For coaches that make money and fans that poison rival school's trees it is that important. With the long over-due changes soon to take affect, those coaches and fans may be forced to see how the rest of the country recruits. And they may not like what they see.

[CajunCrimson]

Sorry for dragging this back up to the top of your board, but I wanted to add a few comments from the Tidenation.....

First of all, keep in mind that there are very many Bama fans that are big OU fans, and were hoping for a Bama/OU Championship Game this year. In fact for most of us, you are our 2nd favorite program.......with that said --

I'm not sure I understand the frustration of the Bama Program, and the "Oversigning" argument -- as there are rules in place, and we follow them. If there is an occasional casualty -- isn't that true of any process? Show me any process that pleases everyone 100%. I think Coach Saban is very upfront with the kids that sign, and if you are ever on our site I think you would already know that.....some kids choose to sign anyway.

With the number of injuries and juniors that keep moving on (we may lose as many as 5 juniors early), and transfers, 25/year sometimes isn't enough....to stay at 85..... but that's a different argument for another day.

With regards to the SEC Dominance.......I see no reason to believe why that will change anytime soon. The speed/talent level of the recruits coming out of the SE is unparallelled (sp?) in the country. USC scoops up the kids out of Cali, OU/Texas scoop up most of the kids in Texas, Ohio State scoops up most of the talent in Ohio/PA/Mich.... but the SE hotbeds of Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, the Carolinas and Tennessee -- have SO many kids now ready to play from day one that I don't see how it can change anytime soon.

Now that you have A&M, TCU, TTech, Baylor, OSU filtering the talent near you, and Oregon splitting the talent pool of So Cal -- I just don't think it's going to change. Is it possible the SEC doesn't win next year? Sure -- does that mean the dominance ends? NOPE. The SEC will continue to be the Top Conference at least for the next decade.... I don't see anything causing that to change.....

We sure hoped we'd have played ya'll in the BCS this year -- and we hope that next year, you rebound nicely.

RTR! And good luck VS Iowa!

[jkjsooner]

With the number of injuries and juniors that keep moving on (we may lose as many as 5 juniors early), and transfers, 25/year sometimes isn't enough....to stay at 85..... but that's a different argument for another day.

Here's a news flash. We've had more than our share of injuries and we've had quite a few players leave early over the years. Nevertheless, we don't oversign like SEC teams do.

Anyway, the most you can bring in is 25 per year. It doesn't matter how many you've lost. When you sign more than 25 you're essentially taking a risk that some will not qualify or you'll have to pull the scholarship from some.

I find that unethical. If Alabama wants to take a risk on guys who may never make it to campus then Alabama should be willing to pay the consequences if the risk does not work out. The burden shouldn't lie on some kid who thinks he's getting a scholarship and signed a binding agreement to attend your school.

You say Saban is upfront but that is almost impossible to believe. If you sign 27 guys you have to tell two guys, "You know what, if X and Y work out you're not really going to get that scholarship." You'd essentially be telling a guy that he is the lowest of their priorities. Nobody in their right mind would take that offer.

I'm sure Saban gives some type of "these things are never guaranteed" but he knows when he signs 26 or 27 which players are at risk. He could never tell those kids that they are the ones truly at risk.

The system can't work unless there's some form of deception.


I went to the OU/UA games a few years ago. I met quite a few nice Alabama fans. I didn't appreciate the old farts who stated they were surprised at how unimpressive our stadium was. You'd think that old farts would remember how rinky dink and unimpressive your stadium was as late as the late '80s. Congrats, you guys started expanding a few years before we did which is no surprise to anyone who followed OU football in the '90s.

Anyway, I started thinking that my friend was not a typical Bama fan. I mean, he was clueless about college football outside of the SEC. When I first met he commented that he didn't know OU from Iowa State. So, meeting nice guys in Tuscaloosa started changing my opinion but then I started listening to that redneck cluster f' Paul Finebaum show then I realized there really are a bunch of ignorant hicks who root for Bama.

[jkjsooner]

The thing that really irks me about SEC fans is the completely dismissive attitude they have towards non-SEC schools and players.

What far too many SEC fans fail to realize is that the difference between the SEC and other major conferences is not nearly what they believe it to be.

I can't count the number of SEC fanboys who completely dismissed Adrian Peterson as a great football player. He couldn't possibly be as good as McFadden, Ronnie Brown, or Cadillac Williams. Even after Peterson tore up the NFL and set the single game rushing record as a rookie he still was unproven because he "didn't play in the SEC."

The argument also goes to offensive philosophies. It's argued that you can't have success throwing the ball around in the SEC because of the defenses. (I will point out that in the '90s the roles were reversed and the SEC had more wide open offensive schemes than the Big 12 which was focused on running the ball.) This argument about offensive schemes completely ignores the trend in the NFL towards high scoring pass happy offenses. I think it's pretty easy to see that Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers are having quite a lot of success every week facing defenses that are light years ahead of anything any college team has ever put on the field.

Simply put, far too many SEC fans have no ability to put their conference's success in perspective. I swear some actually think their teams are better than NFL teams. Seriously.

[StoopTroup]

^ good point about AD

[OU_Sooners75]

With respect to my kind OU brethren : Please concentrate on just beating the OSU's and Baylors of the world before worrying about the SEC. Get some defense, then give us a call.

Roll Tide, y'all....

Arrogance...just5 short years ago, Bama was wishing they could crack the top 25!

That said, this very thing is what people are talking about. When Bama and LSU are oversigning like they are, then they can horde players and eventually find a good depth and mix of players.

I can guarantee you right now, if LSU and Bama were playing well within the rules and not skirting the rules like they have been, then they would be just as poor defensively as the average team...instead of being top 5 every single year.

There is no drop off and that is what is giving the SEC advantage, they are skirting the rules and don't give a **** if they are unethical or not about doing it!

[Johnny Utah]

The thing that really irks me about SEC fans is the completely dismissive attitude they have towards non-SEC schools and players.

What far too many SEC fans fail to realize is that the difference between the SEC and other major conferences is not nearly what they believe it to be.

I can't count the number of SEC fanboys who completely dismissed Adrian Peterson as a great football player. He couldn't possibly be as good as McFadden, Ronnie Brown, or Cadillac Williams. Even after Peterson tore up the NFL and set the single game rushing record as a rookie he still was unproven because he "didn't play in the SEC."

The argument also goes to offensive philosophies. It's argued that you can't have success throwing the ball around in the SEC because of the defenses. (I will point out that in the '90s the roles were reversed and the SEC had more wide open offensive schemes than the Big 12 which was focused on running the ball.) This argument about offensive schemes completely ignores the trend in the NFL towards high scoring pass happy offenses. I think it's pretty easy to see that Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers are having quite a lot of success every week facing defenses that are light years ahead of anything any college team has ever put on the field.

Simply put, far too many SEC fans have no ability to put their conference's success in perspective. I swear some actually think their teams are better than NFL teams. Seriously.

Yea ... there were a lot of SEC homers that felt strongly that the Auburn team with Brown and Williams should have played USC in the MNC game; however no team could have matched up with that NFL level talent.

[CajunCrimson]

Here's a news flash. We've had more than our share of injuries and we've had quite a few players leave early over the years. Nevertheless, we don't oversign like SEC teams do.

Anyway, the most you can bring in is 25 per year. It doesn't matter how many you've lost. When you sign more than 25 you're essentially taking a risk that some will not qualify or you'll have to pull the scholarship from some.

I find that unethical. If Alabama wants to take a risk on guys who may never make it to campus then Alabama should be willing to pay the consequences if the risk does not work out. The burden shouldn't lie on some kid who thinks he's getting a scholarship and signed a binding agreement to attend your school.

You say Saban is upfront but that is almost impossible to believe. If you sign 27 guys you have to tell two guys, "You know what, if X and Y work out you're not really going to get that scholarship." You'd essentially be telling a guy that he is the lowest of their priorities. Nobody in their right mind would take that offer.

I'm sure Saban gives some type of "these things are never guaranteed" but he knows when he signs 26 or 27 which players are at risk. He could never tell those kids that they are the ones truly at risk.

The system can't work unless there's some form of deception.

According to Rivals, you guys signed 29 last year. Am I missing something?

http://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/commitments/2010/oklahoma-24

[freshchris05]

According to Rivals, you guys signed 29 last year. Am I missing something?

http://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/commitments/2010/oklahoma-24
Yes. Like the fact it lists 17 the next year. Aww, someone doesn't get it.



Learn some math, then give us a call....





Boomer Sooner ya'll

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Fans of the Slave Eastern Conference should feel so proud of why they have the talent they do. They certainly embrace their redneck heritage there; I'm just baffled that players would want to play for those schools given their heritage.

[Landthief 1972]

Yes. Like the fact it lists 17 the next year. Aww, someone doesn't get it.



Learn some math, then give us a call....
l

MONGO NO LIKE MATH! Mongo only pawn... in game of life.

[CajunCrimson]

Yes. Like the fact it lists 17 the next year. Aww, someone doesn't get it.



Learn some math, then give us a call....





Boomer Sooner ya'll

So, as long as you average 25 per year over multiple years then it's ok to oversign? I'm just trying to understand your argument.......

If it's "unethical" to sign more than 25 -- then it's unethical for everyone......if it's okay to oversign if it averages under 25/year -- then

Over the last 2 years you have signed 46 -- Alabama has signed 49 -- both are under your 25/year argument.....

So, which is it?

[freshchris05]

So, as long as you average 25 per year over multiple years then it's ok to oversign? I'm just trying to understand your argument.......

If it's "unethical" to sign more than 25 -- then it's unethical for everyone......if it's okay to oversign if it averages under 25/year -- then

Over the last 2 years you have signed 46 -- Alabama has signed 49 -- both are under your 25/year argument.....

So, which is it?

Um, most student athletes* stay for longer than 2 years so maybe you should go back a little farther hoss. Let's try 2007(since that's when your current head coach, Nick Saban, took over)

2007 - 25
2008 - 32
2009 - 27
2010 - 29
2011 - 23

We'll just say that averages out to 27. I don't want to blow your mind with decimals.

Next up Bob Stoops

2007 - 21
2008 - 21
2009 - 23
2010 - 29
2011 - 17

That averages out to 22.

Math make sense?




http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/recruiting-numbers/



* - A student athlete is someone who participates in competitive sports for the school they are enrolled in. Commonly referred to as "boys" in the Southeastern Conference

[jkjsooner]

Actually, Cajun has a point. When we signed 29 there was a chance that we would have had to pull the scholarship from four guys. I don't like that.

Had we signed four extra after finding out that four guys were going to be ineligible then that would be a different matter but it appears that all 29 were signed on signing day.

[SoonerAtKU]

I'll give you a hint, Crimson, the number that stands out in that breakdown is the THIRTY-****ING-TWO he signed prior to the Alabama championship season. You think having a free pass at trying out 7 (then 6 more the next two years) extra players might help a bit? Recognize any names from this list?

* R* S* Name
* 4* 5* Mark Barron
* 3* 3* Undra Billingsley
* 4* 4* Devonta Bolton
* 4* 3* John Michael Boswell
* 3* 4* Terrance Cody
* 3* 4* Marcel Dareus
* 4* 4* Robby Green
* 4* 3* Glenn Harbin
* 4* 4* Jerrell Harris
* 4* 4* Don'ta Hightower
* 4* 3* Destin Hood
* 4* 3* Mark Ingram
* 3* 4* Chris Jackson
* 4* 4* Star Jackson
* 4* 4* Barrett Jones
* 5* 5* Julio Jones
* 4* 4* Chris Jordan
* 4* 4* Alonza Lawrence
* 4* 3* Robert Lester
* 4* 3* Brandon Lewis
* 5* 5* Tyler Love
* 3* 3* Ivan Matchett
* 4* 4* Kerry Murphy
* 2* 3* Wesley Neighbors
* 3* 3* Jermaine Preyear
* 4* 4* Melvin Ray
* 5* 4* Burton Scott
* 3* 2* Brad Smelley
* 2* 2* Corey Smith
* 3* 4* Damian Square
* 4* 4* Courtney Upshaw
* 4* 4* Michael Williams

Now subtract 7 of those even at random, and you'll see an immediate impact on the team for the last 3 years.