Thoughts from Damien Mackey

[landrun]

I found this very interesting and decided to post it here too.
I got this from the Land Thieves forum. - Damien Mackey's thoughts on OU football today
(btw, its good to hear he's doing so well personally)

http://www.landthieves.com/board/showthread.php?20980-Thoughts-from-Damien-Mackey

Thoughts from Damien Mackey



The HEART of a Sooner

I have tried to tone down my feelings and emotions for/towards the the program I love so much.
My career ended on that field, and I wouldn't change one thing about it as I felt as a team we gave all we had (from the coaches, trainers, admin, equip guys) and reaped the dividends.

Here are my concerns (and if someone copies and pastes it on another board, or hand mails it to Bob and Co...i will not be ashamed of what I am about to say...it's my program too).

When I first was invited to this board Josh_M found me on the Sooner Fans board in an uproar because I saw a team that didn't look like the one we re-built and passed on to the 04 crew. Even though they lost in fantastic fashion, you could still see some of the imprint of a team that played with grit, passion and for eachother. The super stars were still the hardest working players on the team, and the 4th string white guy was best friends with Mark Clayton...

After that crew graduated (many to the NFL), things just went heywire. Initially I thought it might be the johnny five-star qb recruit that received the checks from Big Red and didn't think much of it, but if you go back to my first RANT...i think it was against K-State in like 08 when they had Freeman and Prince was the HC...i see the SAME exact bull PONIES today that I saw then.

OU is a historical team built on hitting, hustling and playing like one big family. We saw guys come in from teams as early as the 70's and they all stated one common thread "you play for your brothers" period, point blank.........and i.just.dont.see.it..........

my cousin was at OU just a year ago and literally lived with Kenny, Tony and Co. the things I heard about the team, the culture, the chemistry, and the relationship with the coaches really blew me away. those of you who think we lack talent are wrong, those that think the kids don't want it are wrong. as much as it pains me to say this. the problem is the coaches and it starts from the top. does that mean Bob needs to get fired...NO. but i think he really needs to sit down and talk to his team because he has lost them.

the kids ALL LOVE HIM...they really do. and in fact it was that way while i was a sooner. he was/is the preverbial "good cop" in the program. he sticks up for his kids, he tried to keep us out of trouble and he wants to see us be successful.

Im not gonna bash on any of the position coaches because i don't know most of them and the ones i do know...we played our hearts for them and know the wanted nothing but success for us.
But i will say this. I am now a head coach of a high school program and when we make mistakes those said mistakes fall on MY shoulders.

And I know...I know...some of you will call me sour grapes or ask for my solutions and I will say that I promise im not upset about any past history between myself and OU...i almost cried when we lost to USC...i make a very comfortable living with a gorgeous wife and my second child (first son) on the way into the world.

So this is FOOD for thought...
We are a TOP 5 program in the nation...a GIANT..we walk on most any field and out class the players on the opposing team before they ever kick off YET we scheme as if we need smoke and mirrors to compete. I love slinging the ball over the field but football is won and lost in the trenches...that hasn't changed. We beat ...errr...KILL tech if we run a 4-3 defense (nickle when they go 3 wide..dime/base when they go 4 wide) and allow our ends to attack the qb's up field shoulder and the d tackles to penetrate controlling one gap...the backers have a "man" zone responsibility where they can either blitz a gap, pick up a leaking back or sink into the middle of the field. behind them the corners are either up it bump in run coverage or squating at about 4/5 yards. The safeties split the field...real deep at 12 yards a piece, or one robs at about 7 looking for run or quick game and the other safety bails to 16 on the snap of the ball...to eliminate any deep give-aways. the reason this defense is soooo important is because it sets a psychological mindset into the offense. it says...THEY AINT GIVING US ANYTHING EASY.

are there plays to beat that defense, of course. but that's why you go and get better players, and thats why you disguise what you are doing at times. it pains my heart on 3rd and 10 when we line up...vanilla as hell, with three down linemen, dbs off at 9 yards, backers in the b gaps sitting on their heels and the qb can see that we are in a BIG zone and can visualize the whole route combo pre-snap and choose when and where his read will come free...sigh...pains my SOUL. on the next 3rd and 10 when we line up in said coverage, but now all the sudden our backers can't hold their water and the qb can easily see we are bringing a blitz and knows where his hot reads over the middle will be replacing the spots vacated by our blitzing backers....sigh again...

lining up in a "man" look gives the qb indecision and eliminates inferior athletes. now the qb has to think and with any type of pressure, he'll have to choose one or two guys to look at and then throw the ball away. The qb knows you are committed to pressure and will even feel it when its not there and get the ball out of there. inferior teams become one dimensional and the turnovers start to follow. Dline is having fun and making plays. backers get to clean up the short stuff and db's stay engaged and become ultra competitive. a lot of balls get tipped and safeties are there to make plays....wait a minute. that sounds a lot like LSU and BAMA..sigh..that reason and that reason alone is the reason OSU would get a hole mud stompted into them. they wouldn't be able to beat the tight coverage.

for the life of me...i can NOT understand why we will not run this. fleming is a STUD...proly not AA good but had he been doing this for 2 yrs he could be. hurst is also very solid and has good ball skills. tony is PERFECTLY made for a safety that plays halves at times but comes up to run blitz, rob intermediate stuff and just disrupt the box. colvin is another STUD...tonight he made TD saving tackle after TD saving tackle (he and Tony) allow him to play over the top and go sideline to sideline. Keep lewis at the willie backer and put bird in as the mike. to be that thumper that closes air on run plays and allows others to run to the football. nelson makes a solid hybrid backer/safety and rotate 7 to 8 dline with the expectation that they will go full bore 3 to 4 plays and then get 3 to 4 plays to recouperate. it eliminates so much thinking and allows our TOP 10 classes to out CLASS 95% of the competition.

unfortunately our problems stem much deeper than just that. it would probably take a books worth of writing to detail it all, but sometimes i feel like it needs to be put out there and maybe one day i will bare the truth. as for now, i will lick my wounds, and live to fight another day.

the cliff notes of this RANT is basically that we don't put our players in the best postions to make plays. my thinking..and this is only my THINKING is that the coaches believe our players are good enough to give up a little but eventually they will make a play if given enough chances during the course of a drive, but these coverage beating route combos are awesome now. given ample time to throw, there are 3 to 4 route combos to beat any coverage and mainly ZONE coverage without the threat of blitz.

don't take my word for it, as i am now just a fan more than a decade removed from the game, but these are my humble thoughts.
i won't lead the revolution with flaming pitchfork just yet....but something drastic needs to be done and soon...the KIDS deserve better...WE deserve better.

[rainiersooner]

Pretty interesting food for thought.

[StoopTroup]

By food you mean like Twinkies?

[Sooner91ATL]

I have made many of these D observations but I could not put it into "football" words. What I would like to know is, why? Why do we run such a soft defensive scheme?

Saturday night on 3rd and 6 our corner was 9 yards off of blackmon and then when the ball was snapped we backpedaled and the gap increased to 14 yards, when blackmon cut across the middle and caught one for a 12 yard gain. I just don't get it.

[Blue]

By food you mean like Twinkies?

What was wrong with what he wrote? He probably has more football knowledge in his pinky then most of the posters here combined.

[goingoneight]

I have not understood why we play so far off of the receivers, myself. If we have that much trouble getting beat in press coverage, there is something majorly wrong with OUr entire defensive philosophy. I watched a good Arkansas and a good Georgia offense struggle because teams in the SEC get in their faces out wide. The simple fact that Broyles has over 1000 yards in bubble screens at OU attests to the fact that defenses in the BIG 12 either lack speed in the secondary or are afraid to press elite receivers. Look at OUr offense without Broyles, Murray/Whaley. Still trying short stuff that the backups can't do the way Broyles/Murray/Whaley/Clayton do.

So, it's hard to say, really. Are we soft in the secondary? Slow? Lacking confidence in our cover skills year in, year out? Are we afraid we can't get in the QB's face? I mean, that was the case against Baylor and OSU without Ronnell; but schematically, we always cower down to that ten yards off the receiver crap.

[StoopTroup]

What was wrong with what he wrote? He probably has more football knowledge in his pinky then most of the posters here combined.

He's been saying the same stuff for awhile now. I mean...everyone knows Travis is gone so why the hell it's even important to talk about...I have no idea. I and others are trying to just move on to who our Leader on D will be next year.

Damien says absolutely nothing about injuries and how it might have affected the Coaches decisions and how they had to shuffle guys who were able to play multiple positions and how that affected the Team. It's hard for me to believe a guy like him who's career ended with a head injury could over look those things. It's easy for me to believe that he might be less than happy with them years later because he did get hurt.

I always wish these guys well during and after Football but I always take what they say...especially like the things he's saying with a bit of skepticism. Indeed he may be somewhat of an insider and may see that things are different...but Stoops has replaced a bunch of Coaches on his Staff and has tried to find guys who were a good fit for his Style as a Head Coach. Damien was there for a short period of time. So now he's an expert?

Agreed he was closer to action than 99.9% of the folks who are on the Message Boards but I tend to give more credence to guys that go on to Coach than criticize.

He asks some things that many of us have also asked....but I really don't know what to think of the "Bob needs to talk with his players" thing. I just don't believe they don't have the opportunity to talk with their Coaches.

Also...it's hard to get a constant blitz going on when the guys you depend on to do it aren't out there every down. Anyone hear whether Ronnell is coming back? I think it's pretty strange to see Damien blast the Coaching and not really hit on the guys who aren't STUDS. Just seems to be a lot of Sour Grapes. I could be wrong but I don't see hm really have any answers there....just criticism.

If you are into starting these little bitchfests and finding one past player helps your theories, I could see why it would look like crack to a message board junkie

[8timechamps]

I have made many of these D observations but I could not put it into "football" words. What I would like to know is, why? Why do we run such a soft defensive scheme?

Saturday night on 3rd and 6 our corner was 9 yards off of blackmon and then when the ball was snapped we backpedaled and the gap increased to 14 yards, when blackmon cut across the middle and caught one for a 12 yard gain. I just don't get it.

If I've had a complaint (and the only reason I don't voice it much, is because nobody really gives a ****) is this. I don't understand the soft zone stuff. To me, it's like inviting a 5 yard slant on every play. Maybe there's more to the defensive schemes than I know. Maybe there is a great reason we play like that. But, I just don't see it.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I have made many of these D observations but I could not put it into "football" words. What I would like to know is, why? Why do we run such a soft defensive scheme?

Saturday night on 3rd and 6 our corner was 9 yards off of blackmon and then when the ball was snapped we backpedaled and the gap increased to 14 yards, when blackmon cut across the middle and caught one for a 12 yard gain. I just don't get it.

I think you answered your own question here. The reason that you run such a scheme is that you don't trust your player to be able to stay with their WR on the deep route. The reason for the 3-8 shell was that they couldn't trust 5 guys to not bust and give up a big play. They had to concede easy throws to make sure that people didn't bust.

The fundamental flaw in Mackey's reasoning is this sentence.


my cousin was at OU just a year ago and literally lived with Kenny, Tony and Co. the things I heard about the team, the culture, the chemistry, and the relationship with the coaches really blew me away. those of you who think we lack talent are wrong, those that think the kids don't want it are wrong. as much as it pains me to say this. the problem is the coaches and it starts from the top. does that mean Bob needs to get fired...NO. but i think he really needs to sit down and talk to his team because he has lost them.

His premise is the following: We have talent, the kids work their butts off to learn the scheme, the scheme sucks.

Guess what? He has a lot of people who agree with him. The problem is that when you break down individual plays this premise falls apart.

Lets take a look at some of our more common miscues:

Every player in the hole gets blocked one on one (3-4 players here). Is this scheme?
A player incorrectly reads a route and tries to jump it. Is this scheme?
An unblocked player diagnoses a play to slowly and then doesn't make it to the hole in time. Is this scheme?
A player jogs after a ball carrier who then cuts back to where he would have been if he hustled. Is this scheme?
A player is concentrating on fighting with his blocker and doesn't find the ball and it runs right by him. Is this scheme?
2 players close on one route leaving the deeper route uncovered. Is this scheme?
A player doesn't close the ground between them and the ball carrier turning a loss into a 7 yard gain. Is this scheme?

No, every single one of these issues comes down to player "talent" or player "want to" or player "skill". You see, players "wanting it" and then "the coaching staff has lost them" are mutually exclusive. If a player "wants it" there is no way on Gods green earth they'll let a coach mail it in.

[IBleedCrimson]

Here is the problem. Nowhere in his statement do the words "Fire Brent Venables" appear.

[StoopTroup]

I think you answered your own question here. The reason that you run such a scheme is that you don't trust your player to be able to stay with their WR on the deep route. The reason for the 3-8 shell was that they couldn't trust 5 guys to not bust and give up a big play. They had to concede easy throws to make sure that people didn't bust.

The fundamental flaw in Mackey's reasoning is this sentence.



His premise is the following: We have talent, the kids work their butts off to learn the scheme, the scheme sucks.

Guess what? He has a lot of people who agree with him. The problem is that when you break down individual plays this premise falls apart.

Lets take a look at some of our more common miscues:

Every player in the hole gets blocked one on one (3-4 players here). Is this scheme?
A player incorrectly reads a route and tries to jump it. Is this scheme?
An unblocked player diagnoses a play to slowly and then doesn't make it to the hole in time. Is this scheme?
A player jogs after a ball carrier who then cuts back to where he would have been if he hustled. Is this scheme?
A player is concentrating on fighting with his blocker and doesn't find the ball and it runs right by him. Is this scheme?
2 players close on one route leaving the deeper route uncovered. Is this scheme?
A player doesn't close the ground between them and the ball carrier turning a loss into a 7 yard gain. Is this scheme?

No, every single one of these issues comes down to player "talent" or player "want to" or player "skill". You see, players "wanting it" and then "the coaching staff has lost them" are mutually exclusive. If a player "wants it" there is no way on Gods green earth they'll let a coach mail it in.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

http://www.public-domain-photos.com/free-stock-photos-4-big/food/food-plate-guinness.jpg

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

Food for thought is to flip this around on our offensive line and ask the same questions. I can't even remember the last time that we had 4 men at the point of attack nail their blocks.

[StoopTroup]

Food for thought is to flip this around on our offensive line and ask the same questions. I can't even remember the last time that we had 4 men at the point of attack nail their blocks.

We seemed to had stopped the blindside hits on our QBs (You know the one that Bradford and Landry had happening to them in 2008) and at times when the Dozer was in...they really blocked great....but you are right...other times they seem to take plays off like Travis did.

However...against oSu...they got to Landry. He looked stressed and I don't think I've seen him as freaked out about it since he was put in to replace Sam.

[OUMonster]

While I don't think our defensive scheme is perfect or anything I am in more the boat tied to the cliche "it's not the X's and the O's it's the Jimmys and the Joes". Maybe it's just my perception but outside of a small handful of players our defensive talent hasn't been there the last few years like it was when we had great defenses earlier in Stoops' tenure. Has our talent evaluation dropped off or has it just been bad luck? Alexander, Jefferson, and Flemming looked decent this year but no one else really stood out.

[rainiersooner]

Whatever - I found Damien's observations and ST's response both to be interesting and worthy of - ahhem - digesting and thus, I will label this thread as food for thought. Like many people, sometimes, I use what I eat for nourishment, sometimes I sh*t it right out my arse.

[Crimsontothecore]

Not to discount Damien's opinion, but I vividly remember reading a similar rant of his..about two conference titles ago as I recall. It's a shame that such a defensive genius is wasting his talents coaching high school ball. Hard for me to believe D1 coaches aren't lined up outside his door begging him to diagnose and correct their shortcomings.

[Curly Bill]

The ol' he's not a D- 1 coach so he's not qualified to speak about what's wrong schtick. Weak sauce! I'm not a mechanic either but I know if the wheels fall off my car there's a problem.

[rainiersooner]

Not to discount Damien's opinion, but I vividly remember reading a similar rant of his..about two conference titles ago as I recall. It's a shame that such a defensive genius is wasting his talents coaching high school ball. Hard for me to believe D1 coaches aren't lined up outside his door begging him to diagnose and correct their shortcomings.

It is certainly true that this has been an oft-repeated complaint of his....

[Blue]

The ol' he's not a D- 1 coach so he's not qualified to speak about what's wrong schtick. Weak sauce! I'm not a mechanic either but I know if the wheels fall off my car there's a problem.

+1. No ****. His opinion holds more weight than anyone around here.

[NormanPride]

Not to discount Damien's opinion, but I vividly remember reading a similar rant of his..about two conference titles ago as I recall. It's a shame that such a defensive genius is wasting his talents coaching high school ball. Hard for me to believe D1 coaches aren't lined up outside his door begging him to diagnose and correct their shortcomings.

Easy. Mackey loves this team and is trying to explain what he sees and hears from relatives.

That said, I don't agree with him other than saying the coaching staff has lost a lot of the team. They can tell when a gameplan is mailed in to prevent other teams from seeing what they can do (tech) and they know when the coaches have no confidence in them and want to scheme around their inadequacies (baylor). Motivation was our biggest problem after injuries this year.

Personally I think the D can pick up on the fact that Venables is in over his head (if that is the case). The LBs look uncoached, and the D doesn't seem like it's bought into the game plans.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Easy. Mackey loves this team and is trying to explain what he sees and hears from relatives.

That said, I don't agree with him other than saying the coaching staff has lost a lot of the team. They can tell when a gameplan is mailed in to prevent other teams from seeing what they can do (tech) and they know when the coaches have no confidence in them and want to scheme around their inadequacies (baylor). Motivation was our biggest problem after injuries this year.

Personally I think the D can pick up on the fact that Venables is in over his head (if that is the case). The LBs look uncoached, and the D doesn't seem like it's bought into the game plans.

No offense, but you are contradicting yourself here. In order for the players to know if a gameplan is going to work, they have to be well coached. There is one more component here (and I'm sure its shades of a lot of things) and that is that the linebackers are unteachable.

[Blue]

I kinda took from that letter that he was doing all he could not to throw BV or some other coaches under the bus.

[NormanPride]

No offense, but you are contradicting yourself here. In order for the players to know if a gameplan is going to work, they have to be well coached. There is one more component here (and I'm sure its shades of a lot of things) and that is that the linebackers are unteachable.

Not necessarily. I can sit in on a meeting about nuclear physics and spot someone who is bull****ting. It's something kids are REALLY good at.

And I would agree with the premise that the LBs are uncoachable... but ALL of them? Every single one in the past five years? It seems easier to assume that Brent is not concentrating on them as much, rather than assume none of them can learn a single fundamental concept.

[Curly Bill]

If the linebackers are unteachable then we can blame BV for recruiting hard-headed dumasses then right?

[NormanPride]

To further the point that even uncoached players can tell when they're given a bad gameplan... I can tell when we have a bad gameplan, and I've never even played the game. It's easy for even the simplest corner to know that if you're told to back off and let the WR catch the ball before moving in on him, it's because the coaches don't trust you and think you will screw up.

[budbarrybob]

The ol' he's not a D- 1 coach so he's not qualified to speak about what's wrong schtick. Weak sauce! I'm not a mechanic either but I know if the wheels fall off my car there's a problem.

STOP MAKING SENSE!!!!

[Crimsontothecore]

The ol' he's not a D- 1 coach so he's not qualified to speak about what's wrong schtick. Weak sauce! I'm not a mechanic either but I know if the wheels fall off my car there's a problem.

What's weak is an ex player doing nothing more than gossip. I swear he posted the same type of rant several years ago. All he did now was insert current players names. What exactly is he doing to help the program he loves? He attempts to fan the flames of discontent by claiming to have tons of other inside information about the depths of the programs problems. Gossip, pure and simple.

A more accurate example would be you knowing your wheels fell off but Damien claiming your car has much deeper problems...but he won't say what.

[Curly Bill]

So what if he's said the same thing before? Is it not possible that those same problems still persist, and it's obvious to anyone who's been paying attention, that they do!

[prrriiide]

Easy. Mackey loves this team and is trying to explain what he sees and hears from relatives.

That said, I don't agree with him other than saying the coaching staff has lost a lot of the team. They can tell when a gameplan is mailed in to prevent other teams from seeing what they can do (tech) and they know when the coaches have no confidence in them and want to scheme around their inadequacies (baylor). Motivation was our biggest problem after injuries this year.

Personally I think the D can pick up on the fact that Venables is in over his head (if that is the case). The LBs look uncoached, and the D doesn't seem like it's bought into the game plans.

And even further in this vein...

Many of the issues we see with our defense are issues that have transcended position coach after position coach. At what point does it become the responsibility of the DC?

Also...

The kids that are coming out of HS today are far more sophisticated in their football thinking than they were even 10 years ago. They know a good game plan when they see it, and they know a crap one when they see it. How are they supposed to be motivated to play a game plan that they know is going to get them beat? Now extrapolate that to players that have been in-system for 2, 3 or 4 years. They know what's gotten them beat in the past, and when they see the same type of things, they're thinking "BOHICA."

[aero]

The ol' he's not a D- 1 coach so he's not qualified to speak about what's wrong schtick. Weak sauce! I'm not a mechanic either but I know if the wheels fall off my car there's a problem.
+2

[aero]

So what if he's said the same thing before? Is it not possible that those same problems still persist, and it's obvious to anyone who's been paying attention, that they do!
exactly

[85sooners]

Mackey speaks the truth

[FaninAma]

So, jkm, LSU cAN run this scheme why? Do they recruit better players? Maybe but I suspect the talent gap is very small.

Do they have smarter players who don't ever bust coverages or responsibilities? Give me a break. This is LSU and Alabama we are talking about. I suspect OU players are every bit as intelligent or football smart as their counterparts in the SEC.

Do Alabama and LSU never have key injuries or suspensions?

I don't buy your arguement that it is the players' fault that the coaches don't trust them to be able to lock up receivers and play a more aggressive , attacking style of defense. If anything, this coaching staff makes their schemes even more complicated than LSU and Alabama and that's why we see our kids looking at their wristbands or over to th
e sidelines as the ball is snapped.

I honestly think Venables would be better suited as a DC in the NFL than he is in college. Sort of like Bill Walsh's success in the NFL and lack of it at Stanford. Sometimes you just make things too complicated for your college players and they spend all of their time on the field thinking and reacting instead of playing and being aggressive.

I think Damian's version carries a lot more water than yours. Sorry.

[NormanPride]

I'd say the biggest difference between our and LSU/Alabama's defenses is that their linebackers are unbelievably good, with LSU also having an amazing corner. With great LBs like that their DTs and DEs are free to do pretty much whatever they want, rather than having to stay home and worry about eating up all the running lanes.

Like has been stated before, we're not great at DT right now (but not bad either, IMO) but we are abysmal at LB. That affects everything we do on defense, because we have to cover for their inadequacies. Bringing safeties up, pinching DEs, teaching DTs to occupy blocks rather than push upfield, etc...

[Blue]

It's been 7-8 years of the same crap guys. Time to look for a DC.

[MamaMia]

Some feel we need to make a lot of changes. Some people don't feel we need to make any changes at all; not a one. The problems some see vary from the problems others see. It doesn't matter who says what, there is going to be someone who will come along and call them a name or bring up that we were so injured, and therefore its perfectly understandable that we lost, like every year nowadays "blah blah blah," so whats the point?

Next year, we will win more games than we will lose so we will have a 'winning' season, so to speak. We are going to lose at least one or two games to someone who is either better than we are, or who's players just played better or were coached better that day. We are going to have key players getting injured left and right and thats going to be another huge factor because player B wont really be ready. We will switch players from one position to another...what I fondly refer to "Playing musical positioning." Thats who we are and thats what we do.

Boomer Sooner.

~The End

[BoulderSooner79]

Some feel we need to make a lot of changes. Some people don't feel we need to make any changes at all; not a one. The problems some see vary from the problems others see. It doesn't matter who says what, there is going to be someone who will come along and call them a name or bring up that we were so injured, and therefore its perfectly understandable that we lost, like every year nowadays "blah blah blah," so whats the point?

Next year, we will win more games than we will lose so we will have a 'winning' season, so to speak. We are going to lose at least one or two games to someone who is either better than we are, or who's players just played better or were coached better that day. We are going to have key players getting injured left and right and thats going to be another huge factor because player B wont really be ready. We will switch players from one position to another...what I fondly refer to "Playing musical positioning." Thats who we are and thats what we do.

Boomer Sooner.

~The End

So let it be written; so shall it be done.

[OUInformant]

Gotta agree with Mackey here. We have some coaching issues.

We haven't won a title in 11 years, so its about time they figure out how to win another one.

[MamaMia]

So let it be written; so shall it be done. ad nauseam.

[freshchris05]

While I don't think our defensive scheme is perfect or anything I am in more the boat tied to the cliche "it's not the X's and the O's it's the Jimmys and the Joes". Maybe it's just my perception but outside of a small handful of players our defensive talent hasn't been there the last few years like it was when we had great defenses earlier in Stoops' tenure. Has our talent evaluation dropped off or has it just been bad luck? Alexander, Jefferson, and Flemming looked decent this year but no one else really stood out.
Aaron Colvin is a man

[Curly Bill]

Aaron Colvin is a man

No way he's 40 years old!

[freshchris05]

It's been 7-8 years of the same crap guys.
And what I don't get is through that time we have been steadily sending these Jimmy's and Joe's into the pros.


It's not just the Jimmy's and Joe's

[BoulderSooner79]

ad nauseam.

amen. (and Boomer).

[sooneron]

It seems, the Jimmys and Joes don't fit OUR x's & o's.

[toast]

Next year, we will win more games than we will lose so we will have a 'winning' season, so to speak.


Yes, damn that second best winning % in the 2000's of .824, we are barely over .500. Hyperbole much?

[Blue]

Yo Toast...2008?

August 30 6:00 p.m. Chattanooga* #4 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK FSN PPV W 57-2 84,715
September 6 2:30 p.m. Cincinnati* #4 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK ABC W 52-26 84,803
September 13 6:45 p.m. Washington* #3 Husky Stadium • Seattle, WA ESPN W 55-14 72,199
September 27 6:00 p.m. #23 TCU* #2 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK FSN W 35-10 85,158
October 4 11:30 a.m. Baylor #1 Floyd Casey Stadium • Waco, TX FSN W 49-17 47,107
October 11 11:00 a.m. #5 Texas #1 Cotton Bowl • Dallas, TX (Red River Rivalry) ABC L 35–45 92,182[5]
October 18 2:30 p.m. #16 Kansas #6 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK ABC W 45-31 85,241
October 25 11:30 a.m. Kansas State #4 Bill Snyder Family Football Stadium • Manhattan, KS FSN W 58-35 47,054
November 1 7:00 p.m. Nebraska #4 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK ESPN W 62-28 85,212
November 8 2:30 p.m. Texas A&M #6 Kyle Field • College Station, TX ABC W 66-28 85,603
November 22 7:00 p.m. #2 Texas Tech #5 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK ABC W 65-21 85,646
November 29 7:00 p.m. #12 Oklahoma State #2 Boone Pickens Stadium • Stillwater, OK (Bedlam Game) ABC W 61-41 49,031
December 6 7:00 PM vs. #17 Missouri #2 Arrowhead Stadium • Kansas City, MO (Dr. Pepper Big 12 Championship) ABC W 62-21 71,004
January 8, 2009 7:00 PM vs. #2 Florida* #1 Dolphin Stadium • Miami Gardens, FL (BCS Championship Game) FOX L 14-24 78,468

[Blue]

Thats a bunch of points. 45 to texas. 31 to kansas at home. 35 to Kstate. 41 to osu. We just outscored everybody but texas.

Burnt Toast.

Give it a rest BV defenders. We deserve better than this crap every year.

[toast]

Yo Toast...2008?

August 30 6:00 p.m. Chattanooga* #4 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK FSN PPV W 57-2 84,715
September 6 2:30 p.m. Cincinnati* #4 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK ABC W 52-26 84,803
September 13 6:45 p.m. Washington* #3 Husky Stadium • Seattle, WA ESPN W 55-14 72,199
September 27 6:00 p.m. #23 TCU* #2 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK FSN W 35-10 85,158
October 4 11:30 a.m. Baylor #1 Floyd Casey Stadium • Waco, TX FSN W 49-17 47,107
October 11 11:00 a.m. #5 Texas #1 Cotton Bowl • Dallas, TX (Red River Rivalry) ABC L 35–45 92,182[5]
October 18 2:30 p.m. #16 Kansas #6 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK ABC W 45-31 85,241
October 25 11:30 a.m. Kansas State #4 Bill Snyder Family Football Stadium • Manhattan, KS FSN W 58-35 47,054
November 1 7:00 p.m. Nebraska #4 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK ESPN W 62-28 85,212
November 8 2:30 p.m. Texas A&M #6 Kyle Field • College Station, TX ABC W 66-28 85,603
November 22 7:00 p.m. #2 Texas Tech #5 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Norman, OK ABC W 65-21 85,646
November 29 7:00 p.m. #12 Oklahoma State #2 Boone Pickens Stadium • Stillwater, OK (Bedlam Game) ABC W 61-41 49,031
December 6 7:00 PM vs. #17 Missouri #2 Arrowhead Stadium • Kansas City, MO (Dr. Pepper Big 12 Championship) ABC W 62-21 71,004
January 8, 2009 7:00 PM vs. #2 Florida* #1 Dolphin Stadium • Miami Gardens, FL (BCS Championship Game) FOX L 14-24 78,468

When I first read your response I was putting it in the context of total team performance and not just defense as I think you intended it. If it's defense then I'm not going to debate it too much.

[MamaMia]

Yes, damn that second best winning % in the 2000's of .824, we are barely over .500. Hyperbole much? http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/OUmom/smilies/coffee.gif You're right. I said we will lose one or two games. I meant to say one, two, or three, unless some major changes are made.

[toast]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/OUmom/smilies/coffee.gif You're right. I said we will lose one or two games. I meant to say one, two, or three, unless some major changes are made.

odds are we will lose one or two games, since we've only had 5 or so undefeated seasons since WWII.

[toast]

Thats a bunch of points. 45 to texas. 31 to kansas at home. 35 to Kstate. 41 to osu. We just outscored everybody but texas.

Burnt Toast.

Give it a rest BV defenders. We deserve better than this crap every year.

see my response above. And I'm not so much a BV defender as I am tired of people slapping the program and Stoops. I believe some changes need to be made, but I'm not going to get all upset about losing a couple of games a year and start yelling for people's heads.

[Blue]

Well if you ever want to watch an OU team win a championship, you best get on board. Otherwise enjoy the crap spread and giving up more yards and points than we've ever seen.

[toast]

Well I've been watching them since the early 70's and been blessed to see 4 championships (although I do admit I was a little young to really appreciate '74 and '75). I think I can hang around til another comes along.

[Blue]

Like I said, get comfortable. it's unfathomable to me to see people accept a glaring weakness when we could improve it. For what? Do you know Venables personally? Stoops? Cause I can guarantee they don't know you. They get paid way too much to consinstently F up like they do.

[En_Fuego]

What if it's not X's and O's or Jimmy's and Joe's but arrogance and ego and the way players respond to the behavior.

I was at the Switzer Statue ceremony and one of the speakers (I don't remember who) talked about the love the players had for Switzer. Barry would go out of his way to help every player. You could look in the players faces and know they were happy, excited, confident. I don't see any of this, not only this year but since 2004 when we played THE worst game in MNC history. So to me, this has been going on for about 6-7 years.

Most of the complaints from "Sooner Fans", year in and year out, are identical. You could go back and dig some old threads up and copy and paste them to this year.

Going back to the player love fest for Switzer. Mike Gundy is developing the same attitude and enthusiasm in the cowpukes. The way his players interact with him.....yes even the dancing.

Things have been brought up about Jerry Schmidt, Venables getting in a players face until his freaking veins pop out of his neck. Bob's failure to answer questions and blaming the mistakes on injuries and players. The yearly failure of special teams. The yearly failure of a decent offensive line, linebackers, secondary. Something happened to Landry Jones since Ryan Broyles got hurt. You can see the undecided look in his eye's. Is it because of Broyles injury or being threatened with losing his job to the "Belldozer" Pure arrogance and ego's go a long way to ruining anything.

When they pulled Brandon Williams out because of the fumble.....(Like they have done to so many RB's through the years) I was like.....give the freakin kid a chance. It's like there isn't any mutual respect between the players and coaches. There isn't any enthusiasm, excitement, a willing to get the job done. It seems like they are just going through the motions.

One thing I learned in the Military was "If the Army isn't working it's not Private Jimmy or Joe's fault.

[MamaMia]

odds are we will lose one or two games, since we've only had 5 or so undefeated seasons since WWII.Since we have been winning National Championships, we've won, on the average, one every 8.7 years. Even though for 18 seasons, between 1956 to 1974 during the latter 7 years of the Wilkinson era, and throughout the years of the Jones-MacKenzie-Fairbanks era, we didn't win one at all. Other than the one Stoops won in 2000, with Blake's recruits, the 2 other coaches who have won Championships have been Wilkinson, during his 4th, 9th and 10th seasons, with players he recruited, and Barry Switzer, who won during his 2nd, 3rd and 11th seasons as head coach, also with players he recruited.

So odds are, since we have been winning National Championships and building our tradition of being a powerhouse, we are 2.3 seasons over due.

[toast]

Since we have been winning National Championships, we've won, on the average, one every 8.7 years. Even though for 18 seasons, between 1956 to 1974 during the latter 7 years of the Wilkinson era, and throughout the years of the Jones-MacKenzie-Fairbanks era, we didn't win one at all. Other than the one Stoops won in 2000, with Blake's recruits, the 2 other coaches who have won Championships have been Wilkinson, during his 4th, 9th and 10th seasons, with players he recruited, and Barry Switzer, who won during his 2nd, 3rd and 11th seasons as head coach, also with players he recruited.

So odds are, since we have been winning National Championships and building our tradition of being a powerhouse, we are 2.3 seasons over due.

Different systems of deciding national championships, had the current system been in place in '85 wouldn't Penn State have played Miami in the BCS champ game?

[MamaMia]

Well I've been watching them since the early 70's and been blessed to see 4 championships (although I do admit I was a little young to really appreciate '74 and '75). I think I can hang around til another comes along.
Different systems of deciding national championships Under the circumstances, as long as you have a lot of patience you'll be just fine. :)

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So, jkm, LSU cAN run this scheme why? Do they recruit better players? Maybe but I suspect the talent gap is very small.

Do they have smarter players who don't ever bust coverages or responsibilities? Give me a break. This is LSU and Alabama we are talking about. I suspect OU players are every bit as intelligent or football smart as their counterparts in the SEC.

Come on Fan, you are better at this than that. "Talent" is like the word "Dude", it has a billion definitions. Every one of those scenarios (and Mackey's post too if you disregard his conclusion and go back and read it again) boils down to one thing -> Effort. I have said this a 1,000 times over the last 4 years that Travis Lewis is one of the most "talented" linebackers we've ever had, but he gives no effort if he is blocked or if he isn't near the play. The net result is a way below average linebacker.

I mean seriously, think about recent history. We have recent Sooners in the NFL canned for no effort. We have DBs turning our coaches in for asking them if they are conditioning.

I said in 2005 that we and Texas had switched places. Well, that year they went out and made a ton of eval picks along with some super athletes that temporarily righted the ship. Take a look at that 2006 class http://rivals.yahoo.com/oklahoma/football/recruiting/commitments/2006 and tell me where the misses were. There were leaders all through that class except at 2 positions. Well one of those positions has had miss after miss after miss after miss since then.

[toast]

Under the circumstances, as long as you have a lot of patience you'll be just fine. :)

:) My wife would probably tell you otherwise. I grew up in a house that when OU lost you didn't want to be around my dad for a week. It was brutal. Maybe it's other things in my life (that I can actually control) that have affected me to the point that I try to look at the positive things and not linger too much on the negative.

[toast]

Like I said, get comfortable. it's unfathomable to me to see people accept a glaring weakness when we could improve it. For what? Do you know Venables personally? Stoops? Cause I can guarantee they don't know you. They get paid way too much to consinstently F up like they do.

No I don't know them personally. I do know that whether they win or lose it doesn't affect my life financially (well, other than causing ticket prices to rise when they win) or in any other way. I can't control what Stoops, or Boren, or Castiglione do. I can control my reactions and how I let their decisions impact me though.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

When they pulled Brandon Williams out because of the fumble.....(Like they have done to so many RB's through the years) I was like.....give the freakin kid a chance. It's like there isn't any mutual respect between the players and coaches. There isn't any enthusiasm, excitement, a willing to get the job done. It seems like they are just going through the motions.

Why are you looking at this as punishment? Is it possible that they did this with the kid's best interests at heart. Fumbling the ball in a blowout win is bad enough, but fumbling the ball in a blowout loss to an in-state rival? You can surely see that there might be some psychological reasons for pulling him. I'm not even going to get into the fact that him putting the ball on the carpet twice in one game would probably come back up in a Pro scouting report.

[toast]

Things have been brought up about Jerry Schmidt, Venables getting in a players face until his freaking veins pop out of his neck.

Neither Schmidt nor Venables have anything on Bobby Proctor (Switzer's db coach) for getting in player's faces.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Since we have been winning National Championships, we've won, on the average, one every 8.7 years. Even though for 18 seasons, between 1956 to 1974 during the latter 7 years of the Wilkinson era, and throughout the years of the Jones-MacKenzie-Fairbanks era, we didn't win one at all. Other than the one Stoops won in 2000, with Blake's recruits, the 2 other coaches who have won Championships have been Wilkinson, during his 4th, 9th and 10th seasons, with players he recruited, and Barry Switzer, who won during his 2nd, 3rd and 11th seasons as head coach, also with players he recruited.

So odds are, since we have been winning National Championships and building our tradition of being a powerhouse, we are 2.3 seasons over due.

With Blake's recruits? You have got to be frickin' kidding me.

Look, its apparent that you hate Stoops. You hate how much money he makes. I get all of that. But you are at this point, coloring your posts with your hatred. Bob Stoops was the DC for the greatest turnaround in CFB history. He has been on staffs that have won 2 NCs and coached in 3 more MNC games. Our problems right now are glaringly recent in football terms. Had Venables not struck out on every single linebacker he recruited, our defense would have been 30 places better. The problem is that he did and now you have to get rid of him and hope to God that someone can get more production out of what we have on campus.

This isn't any different than our 2001 OL when Mangino ran them all off. Or whenever Long left because he'd been ofer on QB recruits.

[Blue]

Why are you looking at this as punishment? Is it possible that they did this with the kid's best interests at heart. Fumbling the ball in a blowout win is bad enough, but fumbling the ball in a blowout loss to an in-state rival? You can surely see that there might be some psychological reasons for pulling him. I'm not even going to get into the fact that him putting the ball on the carpet twice in one game would probably come back up in a Pro scouting report.

Well I for one am glad our coaches are expert psychologists. Here I thought they'd be consulting "winning" coaches during the offseason...glad to know they were consulting Dr. Phil, Dr. Drew, and playing golf with Rich-Rod.

Way to much overthinking and way too many excuses around here.

[toast]

Well I for one am glad our coaches are expert psychologists. Here I thought they'd be consulting "winning" coaches during the offseason...glad to know they were consulting Dr. Phil, Dr. Drew, and playing golf with Rich-Rod.

Way to much overthinking and way too many excuses around here.

Yeah, too bad they didn't go talk with someone like Saban....oh wait.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Like I said, get comfortable. it's unfathomable to me to see people accept a glaring weakness when we could improve it. For what? Do you know Venables personally? Stoops? Cause I can guarantee they don't know you. They get paid way too much to consinstently F up like they do.

Here is my question, when did you start to see a problem?

Was it in 2005 when we were so thin in the secondary that we had to move over a running back and wide receiver to field 5 guys?

Was it in 2006 when even with our secondary problems we were 11 in total defense until the bowl game?

Was it in 2007 when we were still mismatched in the secondary (we had a linebacker playing S) we were in the top 20 in defense and top 10 in run defense until WV blitzed us for 349 on the ground?

Was it in 2008 when we had a freshman and sophomore at linebacker and then 2 freshman when the soph went down to injury?

Was it in 2009 when we had a top 10 defense again?

Or was it in 2010 and 11 when our defense just cratered. The problem is that if you look at the big picture as well as the circumstances, BV had not done a bad job until 2010. Heck, given the turmoil in the secondary following Mike's departure, I can easily see someone thinking he did a great job. It hasn't been until the last 2 years that it all fell apart.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Well I for one am glad our coaches are expert psychologists. Here I thought they'd be consulting "winning" coaches during the offseason...glad to know they were consulting Dr. Phil, Dr. Drew, and playing golf with Rich-Rod.

Way to much overthinking and way too many excuses around here.

You are trying to tell me that Nick Saban would give a True Freshman back the rock after he fumbled? Sabanball is going to have to verify that one.

[MamaMia]

:) My wife would probably tell you otherwise. I grew up in a house that when OU lost you didn't want to be around my dad for a week. It was brutal. Maybe it's other things in my life (that I can actually control) that have affected me to the point that I try to look at the positive things and not linger too much on the negativeHopefully, the ones who are in control of the negatives will linger on them.

[Breadburner]

DM always runs his mouth when we lose a few games.....

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Way to much overthinking and way too many excuses around here.

Blue, I have no skin the game whether we change coaches or not. I personally remember when Blake was about to be fired on the old soonerchat and rdhouse. People were up in arms to keep him or fire him. My only thinking was "he needs to be fired, but if the end result is Neuheisel keep him". I also think the pokey game sealed the deal for BV and for Martinez (and hopefully patton).

I'd just remind you to look down south at Texas. They just brought in the top assistant DC and got plastered by aggy and by Baylor much the way we did. And honestly, I think they have better players than we do.

[En_Fuego]

You are trying to tell me that Nick Saban would give a True Freshman back the rock after he fumbled? Sabanball is going to have to verify that one.

Sick of hearing anything related to Dick Saban. And neither of us know why Brandon Williams was taken out. Hell we were getting the sh!t kicked out of us anyway.....give the kid some playing time. I doubt they took Williams out because they cared about his future scout report or him getting his feelings hurt. Look on the sideline during games.....The players look like they are on a blind date with the ugliest chick in town.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Sick of hearing anything related to Dick Saban. And neither of us know why Brandon Williams was taken out. Hell we were getting the sh!t kicked out of us anyway.....give the kid some playing time. I doubt they took Williams out because they cared about his future scout report or him getting his feelings hurt. Look on the sideline during games.....The players look like they are on a blind date with the ugliest chick in town.

pfft, you learn that sideline look at an early age. Nothing like getting caught not paying attention (or worse laughing) and getting the lovable "You are going to run until I get tired...of seeing you puke."

[MamaMia]

Sick of hearing anything related to Dick Saban. And neither of us know why Brandon Williams was taken out. Hell we were getting the sh!t kicked out of us anyway.....give the kid some playing time. I doubt they took Williams out because they cared about his future scout report or him getting his feelings hurt. Look on the sideline during games.....The players look like they are on a blind date with the ugliest chick in town. They pretty much were.

[En_Fuego]

pfft, you learn that sideline look at an early age. Nothing like getting caught not paying attention (or worse laughing) and getting the lovable "You are going to run until I get tired...of seeing you puke."

That's not the look i'm talking about. The look i'm talking about is an "Oh Well....Whatever"

[En_Fuego]

They pretty much were.

LMAO....Wasn't meaning to refer to OSU . But heh

[toast]

Since we have been winning National Championships, we've won, on the average, one every 8.7 years. Even though for 18 seasons, between 1956 to 1974 during the latter 7 years of the Wilkinson era, and throughout the years of the Jones-MacKenzie-Fairbanks era, we didn't win one at all. Other than the one Stoops won in 2000, with Blake's recruits, the 2 other coaches who have won Championships have been Wilkinson, during his 4th, 9th and 10th seasons, with players he recruited, and Barry Switzer, who won during his 2nd, 3rd and 11th seasons as head coach, also with players he recruited.

So odds are, since we have been winning National Championships and building our tradition of being a powerhouse, we are 2.3 seasons over due.

So basically Stoops is a couple of td's away in 2008 from stopping much of the Stoops/Venables haters? If DeMarco plays in the game, or Sam makes a better decision at the goalline, or Brian Simmons doesn't let the dl cross his face (of course, all of these ifs have nothing to do with Venables) then Stoops has mnc #2 and everyone is pretty good. Pretty narrow margin for all of the hate. Of course, there would be those still complaining 3 years removed from a mnc, stating that Stoops has lost it, can't motivate his players, etc.

[prrriiide]

Here is my question, when did you start to see a problem?

I'm not Blue, but I can tell you exactly when I first noticed it. November 6th, 2004. That day aTm blistered our secondary for 360 yards passing. I couldn't believe how far off of the LoS our corners were playing. I was VERY critical of Pelini after that game, and I was proved correct in TGOWWDNS, where the same thing happened. I believe that our secondary woes date back to that season, although the next couple of years didn't see many games approaching that kind of passing yardage given up. But if you look back at the individual games, you see a pattern of a seemingly stingy defense that for some reason gives up a 300 yard passing game, or 3:

UCLA, 9/17/05, 314 yds, L 41-24
Oregon 9/16/06, 343 yds, L 34-33 (thank you Mr. Replay)
Tulsa 9/21/07, 354 yds, W 62-21
Missouri 10/13/07, 361 yds, W 41-31
Texas Tech 11/17/07, 420 yds, L 34-27
Kansas 10/18/08, 357 yds, W 45-31
Kansas St. 10/25/08, 486 yds, W 58-35
Texas Tech 11/22/08, 361 yds, W 65-21
BYU 9/5/09, 329 yds, L 14-13
Texas Tech 11/21/09, 388 yds, L 41-13
Utah St. 9/4/10, 341 yds, W 31-24
Cincy 9/25/10, 305 yds, W 31-29
Missouri 11/23/10, 308 yds, L 36-27
Texas Tech 10/22/11, 452 yds, L 41-38
A&M 11/5/11, 379 yds, W 41-25
Baylor 11/19/11, 485 yds, L 45-38

Notice that they have become more numerous from 2007 on, and that the teams doing it are often not teams that you would expect to able to do it.

Fortunately, we have had the offenses to mostly mitigate those problems over the years. But over the last couple of seasons, the chickens have come home to roost.

Combining a couple of early departures, and Venables seeming total lack of ability to recruit/develop/utilize quality linebackers made the situation we now see inevitable. Hiring Martinez was the nail in the coffin for this season.

I am squarely in the camp that knows, deep in the middle of my Crimson and Cream heart, that we will not - CANNOT - win another NC with Venables at the helm of the defense. Just when you think he's got it dialed in (FSU, texass this season), his defense comes out and lays an egg a week or two later.

I know Bob isn't going to fire him. He is to Bob what Greg Davis was to Mack. And the on-field results are about the same. But I honestly believe that Bob will resign before he fires Brent.

[cleller]

When you go form #1 to a 9-3 season, ending including 2 drubbings of historic proportions, there is obviously reason for concern. To deny it is delusional.

This staff know this, its up to them to handle it. The gradual change from the 2000 season to now is tough to notice up close, that's why its so obvious Mackey.

Just have to wait and see what happens, hopefully some eyes are now opening. Sadly, I think Bob would resign before he'd let anyone pressure him to fire someone. Can't hold that against him.

[EatLeadCommie]

I'm not Blue, but I can tell you exactly when I first noticed it. November 6th, 2004. That day aTm blistered our secondary for 360 yards passing. I couldn't believe how far off of the LoS our corners were playing. I was VERY critical of Pelini after that game, and I was proved correct in TGOWWDNS, where the same thing happened. I believe that our secondary woes date back to that season, although the next couple of years didn't see many games approaching that kind of passing yardage given up. But if you look back at the individual games, you see a pattern of a seemingly stingy defense that for some reason gives up a 300 yard passing game, or 3:

UCLA, 9/17/05, 314 yds, L 41-24
Oregon 9/16/06, 343 yds, L 34-33 (thank you Mr. Replay)
Tulsa 9/21/07, 354 yds, W 62-21
Missouri 10/13/07, 361 yds, W 41-31
Texas Tech 11/17/07, 420 yds, L 34-27
Kansas 10/18/08, 357 yds, W 45-31
Kansas St. 10/25/08, 486 yds, W 58-35
Texas Tech 11/22/08, 361 yds, W 65-21
BYU 9/5/09, 329 yds, L 14-13
Texas Tech 11/21/09, 388 yds, L 41-13
Utah St. 9/4/10, 341 yds, W 31-24
Cincy 9/25/10, 305 yds, W 31-29
Missouri 11/23/10, 308 yds, L 36-27
Texas Tech 10/22/11, 452 yds, L 41-38
A&M 11/5/11, 379 yds, W 41-25
Baylor 11/19/11, 485 yds, L 45-38

Notice that they have become more numerous from 2007 on, and that the teams doing it are often not teams that you would expect to able to do it.

Fortunately, we have had the offenses to mostly mitigate those problems over the years. But over the last couple of seasons, the chickens have come home to roost.

Combining a couple of early departures, and Venables seeming total lack of ability to recruit/develop/utilize quality linebackers made the situation we now see inevitable. Hiring Martinez was the nail in the coffin for this season.

I am squarely in the camp that knows, deep in the middle of my Crimson and Cream heart, that we will not - CANNOT - win another NC with Venables at the helm of the defense. Just when you think he's got it dialed in (FSU, texass this season), his defense comes out and lays an egg a week or two later.

I know Bob isn't going to fire him. He is to Bob what Greg Davis was to Mack. And the on-field results are about the same. But I honestly believe that Bob will resign before he fires Brent.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

It is quite obvious, particularly in the last couple years, that opposing offenses have adapted and our defense has not.

And even in games where our defense supposedly wasn't the problem, such as with the Florida game and this week's disaster against the Pokes, we have given up 500 yards of offense.

[Sinyeah12]

Seems to me the defense started sucking more often around the time they started the hurry up offense.

[EatLeadCommie]

Seems to me the defense started sucking more often around the time they started the hurry up offense.
Shorter TOP will tend to make the defense a bit more tired than usual, but the problems are more glaring than that.

And as more teams go to the hurry-up, we're going to have to figure out if we want to get in shootouts or actually attempt to defend it. I think UF showed in 2008 that the best defense against a hurry-up offense is a ball-control offense that has the ability to move the ball and rack up TOP. Of course it didn't help that our defense wasn't very good that year either.

[NormanPride]

We picked up as we started recruiting good DBs after Mike left, and we are falling off now as we are missing on LBs. This is compounded because Shipp, who is normally very good, has missed on a bunch of guys recently. McFarland is particularly disappointing, though he is a good player. I think the staff expected him to be great. McGee has also failed to progress at the rate we expected.

[Oldnslo]

Assume that Mike Stoops isn't going to come back. Because, if nothing else, it's hard to be in command and then be an assistant.

Who is the bright star that we bring in to be DC?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I'm not Blue, but I can tell you exactly when I first noticed it. November 6th, 2004. That day aTm blistered our secondary for 360 yards passing. I couldn't believe how far off of the LoS our corners were playing. I was VERY critical of Pelini after that game, and I was proved correct in TGOWWDNS, where the same thing happened. I believe that our secondary woes date back to that season, although the next couple of years didn't see many games approaching that kind of passing yardage given up. But if you look back at the individual games, you see a pattern of a seemingly stingy defense that for some reason gives up a 300 yard passing game, or 3:

UCLA, 9/17/05, 314 yds, L 41-24
Oregon 9/16/06, 343 yds, L 34-33 (thank you Mr. Replay)
Tulsa 9/21/07, 354 yds, W 62-21
Missouri 10/13/07, 361 yds, W 41-31
Texas Tech 11/17/07, 420 yds, L 34-27
Kansas 10/18/08, 357 yds, W 45-31
Kansas St. 10/25/08, 486 yds, W 58-35
Texas Tech 11/22/08, 361 yds, W 65-21
BYU 9/5/09, 329 yds, L 14-13
Texas Tech 11/21/09, 388 yds, L 41-13
Utah St. 9/4/10, 341 yds, W 31-24
Cincy 9/25/10, 305 yds, W 31-29
Missouri 11/23/10, 308 yds, L 36-27
Texas Tech 10/22/11, 452 yds, L 41-38
A&M 11/5/11, 379 yds, W 41-25
Baylor 11/19/11, 485 yds, L 45-38

Notice that they have become more numerous from 2007 on, and that the teams doing it are often not teams that you would expect to able to do it.

Fortunately, we have had the offenses to mostly mitigate those problems over the years. But over the last couple of seasons, the chickens have come home to roost.

Combining a couple of early departures, and Venables seeming total lack of ability to recruit/develop/utilize quality linebackers made the situation we now see inevitable. Hiring Martinez was the nail in the coffin for this season.

I am squarely in the camp that knows, deep in the middle of my Crimson and Cream heart, that we will not - CANNOT - win another NC with Venables at the helm of the defense. Just when you think he's got it dialed in (FSU, texass this season), his defense comes out and lays an egg a week or two later.

I know Bob isn't going to fire him. He is to Bob what Greg Davis was to Mack. And the on-field results are about the same. But I honestly believe that Bob will resign before he fires Brent.

2004 ATM? Wasn't that the game where we had to pull Marcus Walker's RS (even though he wasn't physically ready to play) which later led to him getting like 3 shoulder surgeries?

Also remember that Greg Davis has a National Championship under Mack. You can blame that one on the players all you want, but the fact remains if you have the Johnnies and the Joes, it doesn't matter about the X's and the O's.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Assume that Mike Stoops isn't going to come back. Because, if nothing else, it's hard to be in command and then be an assistant.

Who is the bright star that we bring in to be DC?

That is kind of the problem. All of the bright stars were snatched up last year (when I thought we needed to make our move).

Total Defense:

1 Alabama 12 676 2295 3.39 12 191.25 11 1 0
2 LSU 13 828 3277 3.96 14 252.08 13 0 0
3 Georgia 13 790 3490 4.42 33 268.46 10 3 0
4 South Carolina 12 773 3227 4.17 25 268.92 10 2 0
5 Michigan St. 13 832 3545 4.26 30 272.69 10 3 0
6 Florida St. 12 789 3295 4.18 23 274.58 8 4 0
7 Illinois 12 783 3501 4.47 29 291.75 6 6 0
8 Wisconsin 13 786 3809 4.85 28 293.00 11 2 0
9 Florida 12 788 3595 4.56 31 299.58 6 6 0
10 Penn St. 12 823 3611 4.39 22 300.92 9 3 0
11 UCF 12 732 3640 4.97 25 303.33 5 7 0
12 Virginia Tech 13 813 4081 5.02 29 313.92 11 2 0
13 Rutgers 12 763 3773 4.94 27 314.42 8 4 0
14 Texas 12 796 3784 4.75 31 315.33 7 5 0
15 Temple 12 766 3786 4.94 22 315.50 8 4 0
16 Boise St. 12 738 3787 5.13 30 315.58 11 1 0

You could probably grab Grantham from Georgia but he is pure 3-4
Obviously, Sandusky is available
MSU's guy is probably going to illinois
Bob Fraser at Rutgers is a linebackers coach

[prrriiide]

the fact remains if you have the Johnnies and the Joes, it doesn't matter about the X's and the O's.

This is not correct. You can't win with Bills and Bobs when the X's and O's were conceived for Johnnies and Joes. Also - the X's and O's sure as hell matter when the opposing coach has found a weakness in the scheme to exploit against the Johnnies and Joes, even if they execute well.

[BoulderSooner79]

I doubt Sandusky's future schedule would work.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

This is not correct. You can't win with Bills and Bobs when the X's and O's were conceived for Johnnies and Joes. Also - the X's and O's sure as hell matter when the opposing coach has found a weakness in the scheme to exploit against the Johnnies and Joes, even if they execute well.

"weakness" as in mismatch between player x and y?

[MamaMia]

Assume that Mike Stoops isn't going to come back. Because, if nothing else, it's hard to be in command and then be an assistant.

Who is the bright star that we bring in to be DC?If the Board of Regents wants Mike Stoops back, they will have to terminate Venables employment, just like they did Chuck Longs. Stoops, Boren and Joe C. will bow out of making that decision.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

If the Board of Regents wants Mike Stoops back, they will have to terminate Venables employment, just like they did Chuck Longs. Stoops, Boren and Joe C. will bow out of making that decision.

Martinez is the one who will be terminated. So a defensive backs coach (Martinez) will be replaced with a defensive backs coach (Mike Stoops). Along with co-defensive coordinator duties of course.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I have made many of these D observations but I could not put it into "football" words. What I would like to know is, why? Why do we run such a soft defensive scheme?

B-V... My wife said this to me as well, not in football speak. We stopped watching the games after the KU game. Tired of the poor coaching or bad player match-ups.

[htownsooner7]

Any offensive line gurus on here? My main complaint is that while that unit has done a respectable job, they hardly ever get to the second level with their blocks. That's why you see so many seemingly big plays turn into 3 yard gains. This has to do with tempo, technique, and sustained drives. And when I say tempo, it does not mean 'fast' tempo. It means running plays in offensive rhythm where the play is called, line gets set, and the ball is snapped in a controlled sequence. Our offense is so start and stop, that it makes our o line less likely to sustain blocks and less likely to get into a rhythm, particularly with run blocking. This is fine if you want to throw bubble screens every third play or have the defense out manned because they couldn't get the right nickel personnel on the field. It is not great if you want to take some pressure off your qb and defense. It is also not great if you are hoping for a RB busting long runs for touchdowns, something I'd like to see much more of.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Any offensive line gurus on here? My main complaint is that while that unit has done a respectable job, they hardly ever get to the second level with their blocks. That's why you see so many seemingly big plays turn into 3 yard gains. This has to do with tempo, technique, and sustained drives. And when I say tempo, it does not mean 'fast' tempo. It means running plays in offensive rhythm where the play is called, line gets set, and the ball is snapped in a controlled sequence. Our offense is so start and stop, that it makes our o line less likely to sustain blocks and less likely to get into a rhythm, particularly with run blocking. This is fine if you want to throw bubble screens every third play or have the defense out manned because they couldn't get the right nickel personnel on the field. It is not great if you want to take some pressure off your qb and defense. It is also not great if you are hoping for a RB busting long runs for touchdowns, something I'd like to see much more of.

I try to follow the complaints of the horns, huskers, and sooners, rams, and cowboy fans. The #1 thing that I notice about OL coaches is that they are only good for about 3 years before they start to suck. It seems to be the one position where pretty much everyone has Terry Bowden syndrome (IE they can win with someone else's recruits but not their own).

[NormanPride]

Except OSU's... They pay their assistants well, and I think they're among the best in the business.

[htownsooner7]

I try to follow the complaints of the horns, huskers, and sooners, rams, and cowboy fans. The #1 thing that I notice about OL coaches is that they are only good for about 3 years before they start to suck. It seems to be the one position where pretty much everyone has Terry Bowden syndrome (IE they can win with someone else's recruits but not their own).

Do you agree though our problems are symptomatic of our overall offensive philosophy?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Do you agree though our problems are symptomatic of our overall offensive philosophy?

Its hard to say. Personally, I think our problem is all the trapping we do. We've sacrificed size in the middle for speed and it shows when we get lined up against any DT over 310 pounds which is unfortunately every single one of them.

In the screenshots that I've done, you see the following trends:

1. We are slow off the ball. If you have 4 DL and 5 OL, one of our OL will be the last one off the ball, typically its one of the guards.
2. We don't have good pad level discipline
3. We have to at least chip any down lineman so that they don't penetrate.
4. We get tossed to the side way too easily.
5. We don't block linebackers very well.

[SoonerTerry]

If I've had a complaint (and the only reason I don't voice it much, is because nobody really gives a ****) is this. I don't understand the soft zone stuff. To me, it's like inviting a 5 yard slant on every play. Maybe there's more to the defensive schemes than I know. Maybe there is a great reason we play like that. But, I just don't see it.

JMO
With these spread offences we are protecting the deep threat. Play soft between the 20's and challenge in the red zone. which looks like "go ahead and get 3, we believe we can score 7 every time"

what was our defence red zone stat this year?

Just looked it up, looks like 18

http://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/opponent-red-zone-scores-per-game

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

JMO
With these spread offences we are protecting the deep threat. Play soft between the 20's and challenge in the red zone. which looks like "go ahead and get 3, we believe we can score 7 every time"

what was our defence red zone stat this year?

Just looked it up, looks like 28

The other thing is that you want people to throw the ball over the middle on a zone. Throwing over the middle is where most INTs happen.

[htownsooner7]

I agree with the trends but attribute much of this to game management and offensive line strategy in addition to technique failings. Just for illustration purposes, I'm also a Texans season ticket holder. The Texans have also sacrificed size for speed and also have had some trouble in the past with large DTs. BUT, their tempo, play calling, and commitment to the run, has been incredible this year (and last) such that our offensive line has controlled nearly every game. It appears from our lack of continuity and consistency in establishing a solid run game that our offensive line now makes many mistakes that you see with other good pass blockers who have never been taught or developed run blocking. You see this in Texas high school football all the team with all these spread offenses. They can all pass block but not many ever line up over and over and know how to double team and get to the next level because the plays rarely call for it.

[NormanPride]

We must practice almost no run blocking, because you see us bust on a pass pro scheme once in every ten blue moons. But in run blocking we have at least one person blow their assignment every play.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

We must practice almost no run blocking, because you see us bust on a pass pro scheme once in every ten blue moons. But in run blocking we have at least one person blow their assignment every play.

No doubt

[winout]

Not to discount Damien's opinion, but I vividly remember reading a similar rant of his..about two conference titles ago as I recall. It's a shame that such a defensive genius is wasting his talents coaching high school ball. Hard for me to believe D1 coaches aren't lined up outside his door begging him to diagnose and correct their shortcomings.

Kind of like the high school coach who solved Tim Duncan's kicking problems? The problem none of our D1 coaches could solve.

[En_Fuego]

"At the end of the day"....:hypnotysed: I hate this Offense. It really clicked under Bradford in 08. But now has gone the way of the Keystone cops. [Chris Berman] Bumblin, Stumblin, Fumblin[Chris Berman]

[Always_Sooner]

Right on. Nice to hear from an insider.

[StoopTroup]

Right on. Nice to hear from an insider.

Ummm....he's kind of an Outsider.

[TXBOOMER]

Food for thought is to flip this around on our offensive line and ask the same questions. I can't even remember the last time that we had 4 men at the point of attack nail their blocks.

Amen!!!!!!

[prrriiide]

"weakness" as in mismatch between player x and y?

No, a weakness as in "in situation x the defense tends to do either y or z. Never a or b." Or "in looking at film, we see that a hole in the underneath zone coverage can consistently be opened up by..."

Offenses aren't the only side of the ball that can become predictable.

[picasso]

What if it's not X's and O's or Jimmy's and Joe's but arrogance and ego and the way players respond to the behavior.

I was at the Switzer Statue ceremony and one of the speakers (I don't remember who) talked about the love the players had for Switzer. Barry would go out of his way to help every player. You could look in the players faces and know they were happy, excited, confident. I don't see any of this, not only this year but since 2004 when we played THE worst game in MNC history. So to me, this has been going on for about 6-7 years.

Most of the complaints from "Sooner Fans", year in and year out, are identical. You could go back and dig some old threads up and copy and paste them to this year.

Going back to the player love fest for Switzer. Mike Gundy is developing the same attitude and enthusiasm in the cowpukes. The way his players interact with him.....yes even the dancing.

Things have been brought up about Jerry Schmidt, Venables getting in a players face until his freaking veins pop out of his neck. Bob's failure to answer questions and blaming the mistakes on injuries and players. The yearly failure of special teams. The yearly failure of a decent offensive line, linebackers, secondary. Something happened to Landry Jones since Ryan Broyles got hurt. You can see the undecided look in his eye's. Is it because of Broyles injury or being threatened with losing his job to the "Belldozer" Pure arrogance and ego's go a long way to ruining anything.

When they pulled Brandon Williams out because of the fumble.....(Like they have done to so many RB's through the years) I was like.....give the freakin kid a chance. It's like there isn't any mutual respect between the players and coaches. There isn't any enthusiasm, excitement, a willing to get the job done. It seems like they are just going through the motions.

One thing I learned in the Military was "If the Army isn't working it's not Private Jimmy or Joe's fault.
Well hell maybe Bob should do like Switzer and start handing out some cash.

[En_Fuego]

Well hell maybe Bob should do like Switzer and start handing out some cash.

Oh my.....Yes of course. I'm sure Lester the Molester and Dick Saban don't throw down.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

No, a weakness as in "in situation x the defense tends to do either y or z. Never a or b." Or "in looking at film, we see that a hole in the underneath zone coverage can consistently be opened up by..."

Offenses aren't the only side of the ball that can become predictable.

Interesting.

Edit: Lets see if you are right. Name some plays and I'll screenshot them and we'll see.

[NormanPride]

That's tough to do since we don't do film study... But we can extrapolate from our performance in certain situations where OCs have nailed a problem in scheme or personnel. It's also hard for us to see, since coverage isn't always fully visible from the TV angle.

I would pay serious cash to see games from the end zones.

[soonercoop1]

Sounds like the coaches have gotten fat and lazy instead of actually coaching...been that way for a few years now...seems their thought process is we will recruit 4 and 5 stars so we don't have to actually coach...

[picasso]

I'd say it's more the players than the system.
Would we all agree we were a pretty good defensive team last year when Box was healthy? Would you dare say that UConn's running game was as good as the Pokes?
I saw David Kind get pushed nearly out of the end zone against oSu. Was that good effort?

[toast]

Sounds like the coaches have gotten fat and lazy instead of actually coaching...been that way for a few years now...seems their thought process is we will recruit 4 and 5 stars so we don't have to actually coach...

I hear they spend a lot of time playing Wii in their offices

[Fraggle145]

That is kind of the problem. All of the bright stars were snatched up last year (when I thought we needed to make our move).

You could probably grab Grantham from Georgia but he is pure 3-4
Obviously, Sandusky is available
MSU's guy is probably going to illinois
Bob Fraser at Rutgers is a linebackers coach

Is Kirby Smart no longer available? Or you just dont think he'd make a lateral move? Or you think Saban is running the show and Smart is a clipboard holder?