Something to ponder for the haters

[C&CDean]

Anyone with even half a brain would agree that the most important defensive stat there is would be points-per-game by the opponent.

Some facts to ponder:

In Mike Stoops time at OU the defense gave up an average of 17 points per game.

Since Venables has taken over, the defense has given up an average of 19.9 points per game.

If you include the 3 years of M. Stoops into Venable's numbers (since he was co-coordinator) it's 19.2.

Four different years Venable's defense gave up fewer points than the best M. Stoops defense. 2003, 2004, 2006, 2009.

In M. Stoops' time we had 4 All Americans on defense an average of 1.33 per year.

In Venable's time we had 13 AAs on defense. An average of 1.3 per year.

Now someone please tell me why Mike Stoops is such a superior defensive coordinator, and why Brent Venables should be blamed for every loss? Is the drop-off that huge? Does Venables really suck, or are stupid people just wanting someone or something to burn at the stake to pacify their crushed hopes for a NC every year?

[Collier11]

the only difference which really bothers me is our inability to make a big play on D when the game is on the line. We havent been able to do that for a few years now

[Tiptonsooner]

Why, oh why, would you want to bring common sense into that argument??

[C&CDean]

the only difference which really bothers me is our inability to make a big play on D when the game is on the line. We havent been able to do that for a few years now

Sure we have. We made several against Baylor and Tech...which kinda is the jist of my point. Players not being in position for whatever reason has cost us more than anything. They aren't coached to bite on the run fake.

Something that has hurt us far worse is our **** poor special teams. Remember when we used to block punts? Run a few back? Run a kickoff or two back? Kick it outta the endzone? Remember when our receivers caught everything thrown their way? Remember when we used to tackle well?

[olevetonahill]

Why, oh why, would you want to bring common sense into that argument??
Cause Deans such a bastage

[En_Fuego]

Who is Vunerables ?

[BoulderSooner79]

I haven't forgiven Mike since he bailed early during the '03 season. Yes, I understand wanting to get going with his shiny, new HC job, but this was a BCS title run - not a Holiday bowl. I'd think having another crystal ball along with a great D from that year would have helped recruiting more than an earlier start. Grrr. Maybe a bit off topic, but still irks me.

[Boomer.....]

People don't remember the good performances, only the bad.

[toast]

Something that has hurt us far worse is our **** poor special teams. Remember when we used to block punts? Run a few back? Run a kickoff or two back? Kick it outta the endzone? Remember when our receivers caught everything thrown their way? Remember when we used to tackle well?

This

Dean, I appreciate the effort but haters are gonna hate regardless of facts.

[mightysooner]

Stats don't lie:

Brent Venables defense performance rankings (since 2004):
2004 - #13 Oklahoma 13 812 3887 4.79 28 299.00 12 1
2005 - #13 Oklahoma 12 830 3680 4.43 34 306.67 8 4
2006 - #16 Oklahoma 14 858 4020 4.69 29 287.14 11 3
2007 - #26 Oklahoma 14 951 4737 4.98 34 338.36 11 3
2008 - #68 Oklahoma 14 996 5148 5.17 45 367.71 12 2
2009 - #8 Oklahoma 13 866 3544 4.09 22 272.62 8 5
2010 - #53 Oklahoma 14 1000 5066 5.07 35 361.86 12 2
2011 - #52 Oklahoma 11 799 4103 5.14 28 373.00 (currently)


Mike's defenses never finished anywhere near the 50's much less the 60's in total defense. TOTAL defense reflects the overall quality of play of a defensive unit.

Mike's defenses:
2000 - #8 Oklahoma 12 809 3347 4.14 25 278.92 12 0
2001 - #4 Oklahoma 12 813 3154 3.88 18 262.83 10 2
2002 - #10 Oklahoma 14 928 4104 4.42 27 293.14 12 2
2003 - #3 Oklahoma 14 881 3635 4.13 27 259.64 12 2


That's a glaring disparity not only in statistics, but you can see it with your naked eye week in and week out. Everybody can see it outside of this board.

[PLaw]

Total Defense Rank:
1999 39
2000 8
2001 4
2002 10
2003 3
2004 13
2005 13
2006 16
2007 19
2008 68
2009 8
2010 53

'99 - '03 / OU allows 30 or more points 9 times, with three of those in the '99 season.

'04 - '11 / OU surrenders 30 or more points 22 times; with ten of those more than 40.

More data for the fire.

BOOMER

[mightysooner]

Total Defense Rank:
1999 39
2000 8
2001 4
2002 10
2003 3
2004 13
2005 13
2006 16
2007 19
2008 68
2009 8
2010 53

'99 - '03 / OU allows 30 or more points 9 times, with three of those in the '99 season.

'04 - '11 / OU surrenders 30 or more points 22 times; with ten of those more than 40.

More data for the fire.

BOOMER

Your 2007 number is incorrect. We finished 26th that year.

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2007&div=4&rpt=IA_teamtotdef&site=org

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Total Defense Rank:
1999 39
2000 8
2001 4
2002 10
2003 3
2004 13
2005 13
2006 16
2007 19
2008 68
2009 8
2010 53

'99 - '03 / OU allows 30 or more points 9 times, with three of those in the '99 season.

'04 - '11 / OU surrenders 30 or more points 22 times; with ten of those more than 40.

More data for the fire.

BOOMER

On your points stats are those all defense? or points given up by the team? Remember that JW and Sam didn't throw many picks but when they did, they tended to be on our side of the field.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

In M. Stoops' time we had 4 All Americans on defense an average of 1.33 per year.

In Venable's time we had 13 AAs on defense. An average of 1.3 per year.


Your all american numbers are borked unless you are giving Brent all the credit for 2003. I count 10 AAs (regardless of repeats) from 2000-2003 and 6 since (regardless of repeats). More importantly all 10 of those AAs were linebackers and secondary where they have 10x the impact of an AA lineman not named Steve Entman.

http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/m-footbl-all-americans.html

Edit: Seriously, that 2000 team had 8 future AAs on that defense. My God man.

[Soonermagik]

Mike Stoops was running the show when OU won the title in 2000. Thus, he could do no wrong. Venables has lost 3 national titles while head DC. Not to mention, he got beat by West Virginia and Boise State in the Fiesta Bowl. Fair or not, Venables is disliked for losing on the big stage so many times... at least that's what I have been told.

[FtwTxSooner]

'99 - '03 / OU allows 30 or more points 9 times, with three of those in the '99 season.

'04 - '11 / OU surrenders 30 or more points 22 times; with ten of those more than 40.

More data for the fire.

BOOMER

If anything, we've become incredibly inconsistant on D. Playing great at times, absolutley pathetic other times. All of that gets covered up when just focusing on the average points allowed.

[8timechamps]

Total Defense Rank:
1999 39
2000 8
2001 4
2002 10
2003 3
2004 13
2005 13
2006 16
2007 19
2008 68
2009 8
2010 53

'99 - '03 / OU allows 30 or more points 9 times, with three of those in the '99 season.

'04 - '11 / OU surrenders 30 or more points 22 times; with ten of those more than 40.

More data for the fire.

BOOMER

I think it's also important to understand how the offensive schemes of the Big XII have changed in the past 5 or 6 years. That has certainly added to any increase in points allowed.

In the beginning, there were really only two teams that ran anything similar to what you see now, OU and Texas Tech. Now, with the exception of KU, it seems that every offense in the conference has a spread attack and/or a hurry up offensive tempo.

[pphilfran]

I haven't forgiven Mike since he bailed early during the '03 season. Yes, I understand wanting to get going with his shiny, new HC job, but this was a BCS title run - not a Holiday bowl. I'd think having another crystal ball along with a great D from that year would have helped recruiting more than an earlier start. Grrr. Maybe a bit off topic, but still irks me.

So your would turn down a million dollar a year job so you could finish a priority project at your current employer?

Bet

[rekamrettuB]

Offenses score more and move the ball much better now on the whole than they did in the early 00s.

[OU_Sooners75]

Where do you get your information at Dean?

I am not going to make this into a debate of which coach is better...but....

1999-2003 OU allowed an average of 15.68 points per game.
2004-2011 OU allowed an average of 19.89 points per game.

That said, the worst scoring defense under Mike Stoops allowed just over 18 points (1999). The worst under Venablesjust over 23 points per games (2011).

Also, never in Mike Stoops Tenure at OU did the defense allow an average of over 20 points per game on the season. That has happened 4 (or 50% of the time) times under Venables.

I will not make this all bad on Venables, out of the two (Stoops and Venables) he did have the best season when talking scoring defense of the two with just over 14 points per game (2009). Stoops best year was

Best years when talking scoring defense between the two coaches....
Stoops - 2001 - 13.8 points per game.
Venables - 2009 - 14.58 points per game.


And yes, 4 points on averages is a very big difference when talking on average 12 games a year.

[OU_Sooners75]

Why, oh why, would you want to bring common sense into that argument??

What is common sense about it? The wrong information or the fact that Deano is bringing up stuff that has very little to do with team defense...individual awards?

[mightysooner]

I think it's also important to understand how the offensive schemes of the Big XII have changed in the past 5 or 6 years. That has certainly added to any increase in points allowed.

In the beginning, there were really only two teams that ran anything similar to what you see now, OU and Texas Tech. Now, with the exception of KU, it seems that every offense in the conference has a spread attack and/or a hurry up offensive tempo.

Tell that to the SEC defenses who routinely stuff Big XII superpower offenses even though they're really designed to stop the run. They don't seem to struggle with the up-tempo playstation offenses our conference puts out there. In fact, they maul them and completely dismantle their entire scheme. Florida did it to us. LSU did it to us. Ole Miss did it to us. Ole Miss did it to Taco Tech. Bama did it to Texas.

[OU_Sooners75]

Sure we have. We made several against Baylor and Tech...which kinda is the jist of my point. Players not being in position for whatever reason has cost us more than anything. They aren't coached to bite on the run fake.

Something that has hurt us far worse is our **** poor special teams. Remember when we used to block punts? Run a few back? Run a kickoff or two back? Kick it outta the endzone? Remember when our receivers caught everything thrown their way? Remember when we used to tackle well?

Special Teams has been a problem. But so has the defense.

[8timechamps]

Offenses score more and move the ball much better now on the whole than they did in the early 00s.

I posted nearly the exact same thing, but the haters don't want to add that to the discussion, because it's just an "excuse". Never mind that it's a fact.

[OU_Sooners75]

Offenses score more and move the ball much better now on the whole than they did in the early 00s.

Yeah, in our conference.

[8timechamps]

Tell that to the SEC defenses who routinely stuff Big XII superpower offenses even though they're really designed to stop the run. They don't seem to struggle with the up-tempo playstation offenses our conference puts out there. In fact, they maul them and completely dismantle their entire scheme. Florida did it to us. LSU did it to us. Ole Miss did it to us. Ole Miss did it to Taco Tech. Bama did it to Texas.

Did the SEC teams slow down the Big XII teams? Sure. Did they "stuff" them? No. I'm not going to dissect all the losses, but there is/was a lot more at play than just OU's defense not getting the job done, or OU's offense getting "stuffed". I also don't put Tech or Bama at the same level as OU in terms of up-tempo offense.

My point is that offenses in the Big XII are far more lethal now (and over the past 5 or 6 years) than they were prior. I'm not making this up, and if you want to argue that's not true, then you just haven't been watching much football outside of OU games.

[mightysooner]

Yeah, in our conference.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

In our conference where there are ZERO marquee defensive coordinators. Who can we say is the best big name DC in the Big XII? Venables? Seriously? Haha....

Well, until Patterson's units take the field in the Big XII next year anyway.

[C&CDean]

Yes, my numbers are slightly borked. I forgot Mike left after 03, not 01. Either way, he's not significantly better than Venables by any stretch. And as jkm pointed out, there was mega-talent here in 2000 on defense.

But that's OK. Some people gotta blame somebody for something. May as well be Brent. If he leaves, I wonder if the haters are gonna explode when the next guy isn't half as good.

[C&CDean]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

In our conference where there are ZERO marquee defensive coordinators. Who can we say is the best big name DC in the Big XII? Venables? Seriously? Haha....

Well, until Patterson's units take the field in the Big XII next year anyway.

"marquee defensive coordinators?" Forget the Big 12, how many of these so-called "marquee" guys are out there anywhere?

[OU_Sooners75]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

In our conference where there are ZERO marquee defensive coordinators. Who can we say is the best big name DC in the Big XII? Venables? Seriously? Haha....

Well, until Patterson's units take the field in the Big XII next year anyway.

Chizik (sp?) was in the conference briefly at Texas. Muschamp was at Texas. Diaz is in the conference right now at Texas.

Texas continually ranks among the top 10 defenses in the nation....if they ever find a good offense, they will be dangerous again!

[OU_Sooners75]

Yes, my numbers are slightly borked. I forgot Mike left after 03, not 01. Either way, he's not significantly better than Venables by any stretch. And as jkm pointed out, there was mega-talent here in 2000 on defense.

But that's OK. Some people gotta blame somebody for something. May as well be Brent. If he leaves, I wonder if the haters are gonna explode when the next guy isn't half as good.

If OU cannot land a marquee DC once/IF Venables leaves, then that is on Stoops. There is no reason OU cannot have a very good offense along with a top 10 defense every year.

[mightysooner]

The stats say Mike is vastly superior to Brent. Stats don't have emotional ties to teams, nor coaches, nor do stats where homer glasses. Stats are cruelly objective and impartial. Stats don't lie.

[OU_Sooners75]

"marquee defensive coordinators?" Forget the Big 12, how many of these so-called "marquee" guys are out there anywhere?

There may not be many left since they are all getting HC jobs.

Strong @ Louisville
Muschamp @ Florida
Chizik (sp?) @ Auburn

Those are the top that I can think of. Of course Mike Stoops is available (unless he is headed to Ohio State).

I would say Mark Stoops
Manny Diaz
Bud Foster
are among those that can be mentioned with a Marquee label.

I'm sure there are more, like Kiffin at USC.

[C&CDean]

And how many of those guys are coaching for a NC this year? And how many of those guys has OU's (or other teams) offense lit up like a Christmas tree?

[BoulderSooner79]

So your would turn down a million dollar a year job so you could finish a priority project at your current employer?

Bet

I'm not saying that at all - I'm saying he should have started the new job after the season was over. Many new coaches do that. I'm sure he got pressure from AZ to start ASAP, but if that was a requirement, then they didn't want him that bad.

[C&CDean]

The stats say Mike is vastly superior to Brent. Stats don't have emotional ties to teams, nor coaches, nor do stats where homer glasses. Stats are cruelly objective and impartial. Stats don't lie.

And some people need regular glasses. And a clue. You need to look up "vastly". Besides, how did Mike's defenses at Arizona work out?

[mightysooner]

"marquee defensive coordinators?" Forget the Big 12, how many of these so-called "marquee" guys are out there anywhere?

SEC is full of them. And they average about 200k more per year than Burnt Vulnerables.

[mightysooner]

And some people need regular glasses. And a clue. You need to look up "vastly". Besides, how did Mike's defenses at Arizona work out?

Who's talking about Arizona? They can't recruit like Oklahoma can. That's not a point.

[C&CDean]

SEC is full of them. And they average about 200k more per year than Burnt Vulnerables.

You got stats to back all that horse**** up with? You know, those blessed stats that prove everything vastly?

[C&CDean]

Who's talking about Arizona? They can't recruit like Oklahoma can. That's not a point.

There's a point here and it's this: You hate Venables. You and a few other fantasyland characters. You blame him for all of OU's woes. You are not very smart for doing so. That is the point.

[OU_Sooners75]

And some people need regular glasses. And a clue. You need to look up "vastly". Besides, how did Mike's defenses at Arizona work out?

I can almost guarantee you that Arizona fails in talent compared to:

Ohio State
Oklahoma
Florida
Florida State
LSU
Bama
etc. etc.

He did a decent job there. The last 1.5 years is what done him in when his players quit on him.

[C&CDean]

Why'd they quit on him?

[OU_Sooners75]

SEC is full of them. And they average about 200k more per year than Burnt Vulnerables.

LSU, Bama, and Georgia are the marquee defenses of the SEC.

That said, the SEC is not loaded with Marquee DCs.

[BrotherMalcolm]

Wow, Brent Venables, defensive mastermind!

Do you even WATCH OU football?

Still, I hope your boy gets a head coaching gig soon. Real soon. Strange he doesn't have one already huh?

[C&CDean]

Also, someone who gives a **** oughta pull up some of those almighty stats on all those vastly superior defensive coordinators to try and prove a point.

[TXBOOMER]

Brents numbers suffer because the opposing offenses have been getting 25% more posessions since we switched over to the fast paced offense.

[OU_Sooners75]

Why'd they quit on him?

I don't know. Go ask them, you seem to be a smart man.

Maybe it was because they are patsies? Maybe it was because Stoops was too emotional?

Do not confuse me in saying Mike Stoops should be here and not Venables. I am content with Venables...as long as he can change somethings to improve the defense.

If he can't then it is time for a change in personnel.

[mightysooner]

There's a point here and it's this: You hate Venables. You and a few other fantasyland characters. You blame him for all of OU's woes. You are not very smart for doing so. That is the point.

Dude....I have data to back up my opinion. Data matters, as do stats. You just have name calling in calling everybody stupid/not smart/ effing idiots because they don't agree with you. The stats, and all empirical data for that matter, don't agree with your observation of Vulnerables performance. They just don't. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm a facts guy, and the facts are pretty clear. Vastly so I'd say.

[OU_Sooners75]

Brents numbers suffer because the opposing offenses have been getting 25% more posessions since we switched over to the fast paced offense.

So this is the 3rd season of those fast paced offenses...yet in 2009, he had his best defense.

Can you account for the other 5 seasons where the defense has been suspect?

[C&CDean]

Wow, Brent Venables, defensive mastermind!

Do you even WATCH OU football?

Still, I hope your boy gets a head coaching gig soon. Real soon. Strange he doesn't have one already huh?

Oh goody. Another embicile. Great. Just what we need.

Do you watch OU football? Is the DC responsible for receivers dropping passes, QBs over/underthrowing receivers, penalties by the O-line? Is he responsible when a certain player continuously bites on run fakes and gets burned over the top - and there's nobody left to replace said player? Is he responsible when the other team consistently runs kickoff out to the ****ing 40?

Yes, I watch OU football.

[OU_Sooners75]

Is he responsible when a certain player continuously bites on run fakes and gets burned over the top - and there's nobody left to replace said player?

Yes, he is ultimately responsible.

Why isn't there anyone left to replace said player?

[C&CDean]

Dude....I have data to back up my opinion. Data matters, as do stats. You just have name calling in calling everybody stupid/not smart/ effing idiots because they don't agree with you. The stats, and all empirical data for that matter, don't agree with your observation of Vulnerables performance. They just don't. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm a facts guy, and the facts are pretty clear. Vastly so I'd say.

No, they're not. What people like you (notice I didn't say idiots) don't look at in your hatred of Venables is the rest of what's happening in the games. Venables is your whipping boy and by gawd that's the way it is. That's fine, we had the same people (notice I didn't say dumb****s) who hated on Switzer, Bobby Proctor, Gary Gibbs, etc. back in the day. Funny how when those guys leave it all goes to **** and people go "dang, I guess he was pretty good."

You hate him and that's fine. Just spare me the "empirical data" horsehit. Stats can tell you anything you want to believe.

[C&CDean]

Yes, he is ultimately responsible.

Why isn't there anyone left to replace said player?

Have you looked in the training room? We're hurt man.

[OU_Sooners75]

Have you looked in the training room? We're hurt man.

I know we are hurt bro.

But we should have someone ready to come in and fill the void. We don't and that falls strictly on the coaching staff as a whole.

[mightysooner]

No, they're not. What people like you (notice I didn't say idiots) don't look at in your hatred of Venables is the rest of what's happening in the games. Venables is your whipping boy and by gawd that's the way it is. That's fine, we had the same people (notice I didn't say dumb****s) who hated on Switzer, Bobby Proctor, Gary Gibbs, etc. back in the day. Funny how when those guys leave it all goes to **** and people go "dang, I guess he was pretty good."

You hate him and that's fine. Just spare me the "empirical data" horsehit. Stats can tell you anything you want to believe.

I sure hope you're not an attorney. You'd just argue that opposing counsel is clearly an idiot and all his evidence irrelevant in spite of how convincing it is and not offer any evidence of your own. I don't hate Venables at all. I think he's a position coach and nothing more. He's taken us from top 10 TOTAL defenses every year to 68th, 53rd, and 52nd. That's VASTLY inferior in terms of performance. We can just agree to disagree. I'll keep my factual data, and you can keep your personal feelings on the matter and that's okay.

PS You called BrotherMalcom "another embicile" above, even though it's spelled imbecile. Case in point?

[C&CDean]

I sure hope you're not an attorney. You'd just argue that opposing counsel is clearly an idiot and all his evidence irrelevant in spite of how convincing it is and not offer any evidence of your own. I don't hate Venables at all. I think he's a position coach and nothing more. He's taken us from top 10 TOTAL defenses every year to 68th, 53rd, and 52nd. That's VASTLY inferior in terms of performance. We can just agree to disagree. I'll keep my factual data, and you can keep your personal feelings on the matter and that's okay.

You must be an attorney then huh? Cause you damn sure ain't a statistician.

Top 10 every year huh? I didn't know we used to be that badassed. Must have missed it.

Yes, we'll disagree. You keep your stats, and I'll keep watching the games, taking the whole picture into consideration, and using good common sense. Works for me if it works for you.

[S.PadreIsl.Sooner]

Something I remember about Mike Stoops defenses is that they got burned numerous times on passes over top. I was pulling my hair out plenty of times.

[C&CDean]

Something I remember about Mike Stoops defenses is that they got burned numerous times on passes over top. I was pulling my hair out plenty of times.

ssshhhh. their heads will assplode.

[OU_Sooners75]

Something I remember about Mike Stoops defenses is that they got burned numerous times on passes over top. I was pulling my hair out plenty of times.

Name the games that they occurred since you say numerous times....

I can recall OSU and A&M in 2002. But that is all.

[mightysooner]

You must be an attorney then huh? Cause you damn sure ain't a statistician.

Top 10 every year huh? I didn't know we used to be that badassed. Must have missed it.

Yes, we'll disagree. You keep your stats, and I'll keep watching the games, taking the whole picture into consideration, and using good common sense. Works for me if it works for you.

I posted the stats for you on page 1. They do suggest we "were that badassed", and we were. I was at the games and saw it with my own eyes. I guess you did miss it. Our defenses were consistently ferocious, attacking defenses under Mike. Not so under Burnt Vulnerables.

[mightysooner]

Name the games that they occurred since you say numerous times....

I can recall OSU and A&M in 2002. But that is all.

That because those are the only two games that ever happened in under Mike's watch. Those are the only two games I ever remember Mikes defense getting torched in as well, because that's the only two times it happened. Mike never gave up 616 yards to Baylor, or anybody for that matter.

[zeke]

I've been defending Venables for several years, but after this year I have lost confidence in him. I'm not a stat person, I just go whith what me eyes tell me. This year my eyes say OU's D isnt very good. I dont hate BV but I do think its time for some sort of a change.

I wonder if the players dont buy into some of his game plans sometimes? May be the reason for the lack of effort sometimes...IDK just a thought

[TXBOOMER]

The OU Defense misses Roy Williams, Rocky Calmus and T Marshall much more than they do Mike Stoops.

[usmc-sooner]

Brent Venables said himself that he deserves criticism.

[ObiKaTony]

Stats don't lie:

Brent Venables defense performance rankings (since 2004):
2004 - #13 Oklahoma 13 812 3887 4.79 28 299.00 12 1
2005 - #13 Oklahoma 12 830 3680 4.43 34 306.67 8 4
2006 - #16 Oklahoma 14 858 4020 4.69 29 287.14 11 3
2007 - #26 Oklahoma 14 951 4737 4.98 34 338.36 11 3
2008 - #68 Oklahoma 14 996 5148 5.17 45 367.71 12 2
2009 - #8 Oklahoma 13 866 3544 4.09 22 272.62 8 5
2010 - #53 Oklahoma 14 1000 5066 5.07 35 361.86 12 2
2011 - #52 Oklahoma 11 799 4103 5.14 28 373.00 (currently)


Mike's defenses never finished anywhere near the 50's much less the 60's in total defense. TOTAL defense reflects the overall quality of play of a defensive unit.

Mike's defenses:
2000 - #8 Oklahoma 12 809 3347 4.14 25 278.92 12 0
2001 - #4 Oklahoma 12 813 3154 3.88 18 262.83 10 2
2002 - #10 Oklahoma 14 928 4104 4.42 27 293.14 12 2
2003 - #3 Oklahoma 14 881 3635 4.13 27 259.64 12 2


That's a glaring disparity not only in statistics, but you can see it with your naked eye week in and week out. Everybody can see it outside of this board.

Great job on the stats. Yes, everyone outside this freakin board can see that Brent is overwhelmed. Brent is not a "bad" defensive coordinator, he is an average one. I'm sorry; at OU I want great coordinators because that is whom we can acquire. Mike is CLEARLY the better coordinator, and all those who say otherwise just want to give the appearance of a "better fan" syndrome. I will stick with the "common sense" fan syndrome, and hope stoops lets him go do something else....

[oumartin]

Not a fan of bv as DC. Position coach he's good

[OUNASH]

Inconsistency is the BIG reason people are down on Mr. V. He calls great games (FSU, Texas, KSU) and then bad (Tech, Mizzou, Baylor), yes I know we bit on play action against Baylor but I think maybe the defensive game plan might need to be simplified to some degree. Anyway you look at it something needs to change.

[C&CDean]

So, let's see. Are the Venables haters blaming Venable's defense for our two losses this year? No other part of our play was at fault? Really?

I don't see people screaming for Heupel's head (although that will come with time).

Yes, Venables has been self-critical - and he should be. If he believed he was doing the best job he could then we would be in serious trouble. He's also covering up for some ****-poor play by certain defensive "stars" and several other not-so-starry players.

Venable's biggest problem is that he's been here for 13 years. He hasn't won any more championships since 2000, so he sucks. He's old, and some of y'all just want something new. You really should be careful what you pine for. Obama?

Playing well enough to play for a bunch of NCs, winning conference titles, etc. just isn't good enough for some of our fans. They think we should win every game and shut out every team we play. These people are fools. Those that are like this should go read Phil's write up from last week.

[OU_Sooners75]

The OU Defense misses Roy Williams, Rocky Calmus and T Marshall much more than they do Mike Stoops.

Yeah, because those guys were there starting for the 5 years Mike Stoops was here.

[OU_Sooners75]

So, let's see. Are the Venables haters blaming Venable's defense for our two losses this year? No other part of our play was at fault? Really?

I don't see people screaming for Heupel's head (although that will come with time).

Yes, Venables has been self-critical - and he should be. If he believed he was doing the best job he could then we would be in serious trouble. He's also covering up for some ****-poor play by certain defensive "stars" and several other not-so-starry players.

Venable's biggest problem is that he's been here for 13 years. He hasn't won any more championships since 2000, so he sucks. He's old, and some of y'all just want something new. You really should be careful what you pine for. Obama?

Playing well enough to play for a bunch of NCs, winning conference titles, etc. just isn't good enough for some of our fans. They think we should win every game and shut out every team we play. These people are fools. Those that are like this should go read Phil's write up from last week.

People are calling for Heupel's head because when you score 38 points, you should win every game!

[OUNASH]

So, let's see. Are the Venables haters blaming Venable's defense for our two losses this year? No other part of our play was at fault? Really?

I don't see people screaming for Heupel's head (although that will come with time).

Yes, Venables has been self-critical - and he should be. If he believed he was doing the best job he could then we would be in serious trouble. He's also covering up for some ****-poor play by certain defensive "stars" and several other not-so-starry players.

Venable's biggest problem is that he's been here for 13 years. He hasn't won any more championships since 2000, so he sucks. He's old, and some of y'all just want something new. You really should be careful what you pine for. Obama?

Playing well enough to play for a bunch of NCs, winning conference titles, etc. just isn't good enough for some of our fans. They think we should win every game and shut out every team we play. These people are fools. Those that are like this should go read Phil's write up from last week.

Dean,
I really dont think anyone on here is saying we should shut everyone out or win a NC every year. If they do then your right they are truly foolish. I think most of us want some type of consistency on defense. Sometimes change is not a bad thing ( Obama, different subject and thread). If our guys are playing poorly, some of it goes to coaching. If they are not understanding the defensive schemes, dummy them up so the players understand. Something is wrong and needs to be fixed. I can take losing if we play up to our potential. I think we have regressed since Texas.

[ObiKaTony]

Inconsistency is the BIG reason people are down on Mr. V. He calls great games (FSU, Texas, KSU) and then bad (Tech, Mizzou, Baylor), yes I know we bit on play action against Baylor but I think maybe the defensive game plan might need to be simplified to some degree. Anyway you look at it something needs to change.

That is my point, we can't win championships when we lay ROTTEN eggs. These games we are losing, it's flat out embarrassing. Yes, every coach is going to have "bad games" but if you look at V's stats it's clear we are just not that good.

I have come to the conclusion that if we rid ourselves of Brent, we would have a VERY slim chance of being worse on defense than we already are. Bob will bring in the recruits regardless; we have to get another guy in their to coach on a high level on defense. Ladies and gentlemen, we are not doing that right now. OU at best is an average to below average team on defense. So the question is this: How on earth could it get worse with this kind of talent?

I ask all those who want Venebles to stay, why? Based on time alone, many believe we need a change of pace. Brent has been here for several years, and he probably is getting burnt out himself. I don't see any reason why Stoops should keep him, but for pure loyalty.
If we get a good coordinator we win national championships, period. This team will recruit the talent on offense (see the nfl draft and qb's under heuple) I think it's not only fair but logical to say that Brent is literally keeping us from titles. Not just his failure to have his players execute or to be coached up, but he has been here too long. I liken it to a teacher that has tenure at a lower level position. It's human nature to get bored or burnt out on the position. I was praying he would get hired when he applied for several other head coaching jobs, but they all said no (wonder why???) Once again, Brent is not a bad defensive coordinator, but the stats suggest he is an average to below average coordinator, and OU needs to make some changes.

This opinion does not make me a "bad fan" this makes me an informed one...

[C&CDean]

Yeah, because those guys were there starting for the 5 years Mike Stoops was here.

You're forgetting Teddy Lehman, Brandon Everage, Dan Cody, Kory Klein, Ontei Jones, Derrick Strait, JT Thatcher, Antonio Perkins, Rufus Alexander, Larry Birdine, Dusty Dvoracek, Tommie Harris, Matt McCoy, Jimmy Wilkerson, Eric Bassey, Clint Ingram, Jonathon Jackson, Lance Mitchell, Carl Pendleton, Brodney Poole, Michael Thompson, and a whole slew of others.

[C&CDean]

That is my point, we can't win championships when we lay ROTTEN eggs. These games we are losing, it's flat out embarrassing. Yes, every coach is going to have "bad games" but if you look at V's stats it's clear we are just not that good.

I have come to the conclusion that if we rid ourselves of Brent, we would have a VERY slim chance of being worse on defense than we already are. Bob will bring in the recruits regardless; we have to get another guy in their to coach on a high level on defense. Ladies and gentlemen, we are not doing that right now. OU at best is an average to below average team on defense. So the question is this: How on earth could it get worse with this kind of talent?

I ask all those who want Venebles to stay, why? Based on time alone, many believe we need a change of pace. Brent has been here for several years, and he probably is getting burnt out himself. I don't see any reason why Stoops should keep him, but for pure loyalty.
If we get a good coordinator we win national championships, period. This team will recruit the talent on offense (see the nfl draft and qb's under heuple) I think it's not only fair but logical to say that Brent is literally keeping us from titles. Not just his failure to have his players execute or to be coached up, but he has been here too long. I liken it to a teacher that has tenure at a lower level position. It's human nature to get bored or burnt out on the position. I was praying he would get hired when he applied for several other head coaching jobs, but they all said no (wonder why???) Once again, Brent is not a bad defensive coordinator, but the stats suggest he is an average to below average coordinator, and OU needs to make some changes.

This opinion does not make me a "bad fan" this makes me an informed one...

This opinion does not make you anywhere near an "informed" fan. It makes you a wisher, a hoper, a dreamer. Nothing wrong with that, but just because you believe losing Venables will magically win us a NC does not make you informed. At all.

[ObiKaTony]

So, let's see. Are the Venables haters blaming Venable's defense for our two losses this year? No other part of our play was at fault? Really?

I don't see people screaming for Heupel's head (although that will come with time).

Yes, Venables has been self-critical - and he should be. If he believed he was doing the best job he could then we would be in serious trouble. He's also covering up for some ****-poor play by certain defensive "stars" and several other not-so-starry players.

Venable's biggest problem is that he's been here for 13 years. He hasn't won any more championships since 2000, so he sucks. He's old, and some of y'all just want something new. You really should be careful what you pine for. Obama?

Playing well enough to play for a bunch of NCs, winning conference titles, etc. just isn't good enough for some of our fans. They think we should win every game and shut out every team we play. These people are fools. Those that are like this should go read Phil's write up from last week.


We are winning conference championship and going to national championships because of our offense. It sure as heck not because of our defense... It's frustrating as heck, because our O is going to score! If we could get a consistent D, (we have the talent and recruits which leaves an obvious conclusion) we would win be in way better position. We are blowing opportunity. In my mind, I don't see us getting any worse on D. What, is Tony Jefferson not going to be able to tackle if V leaves? please...

[C&CDean]

And does it really embarrass you when our team plays bad? I get upset, bummed out, etc. but the only way I'd be embarrassed is if I was the guy getting burned ad nauseum in the middle of the field.

[oumartin]

You're forgetting Teddy Lehman, Brandon Everage, Dan Cody, Kory Klein, Ontei Jones, Derrick Strait, JT Thatcher, Antonio Perkins, Rufus Alexander, Larry Birdine, Dusty Dvoracek, Tommie Harris, Matt McCoy, Jimmy Wilkerson, Eric Bassey, Clint Ingram, Jonathon Jackson, Lance Mitchell, Carl Pendleton, Brodney Poole, Michael Thompson, and a whole slew of others.


Half of those never played for mike

[StoopTroup]

Some folks need to go put their OU Snuggies back on.

How the hell a close game to Baylor is an embarrassment I have no idea. The damn game should have gone to OT. What Baylor is doing to fexas right now.....

That's an embarrassment.

[StoopTroup]

Dude....I have data to back up my opinion. Data matters, as do stats. You just have name calling in calling everybody stupid/not smart/ effing idiots because they don't agree with you. The stats, and all empirical data for that matter, don't agree with your observation of Vulnerables performance. They just don't. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm a facts guy, and the facts are pretty clear. Vastly so I'd say.

Just the facts you want to post however. Venables was a part of the 1999-2003 OU Team. He was Co-DC. It's cool how you STAT/Fact guys throw out the **** that doesn't make your point.

[StoopTroup]

And does it really embarrass you when our team plays bad? I get upset, bummed out, etc. but the only way I'd be embarrassed is if I was the guy getting burned ad nauseum in the middle of the field.

Yeah I don't get that crap at all.

If any of these guys want to see a Head Coach, Assistant Coach and a DC that needs to be fired.....all they need do is turn on the Baylor Game right now. Mack is getting embarrassed.

48-24 Baylor 7:43 left in the 4th.....lol

[toast]

On your points stats are those all defense? or points given up by the team? Remember that JW and Sam didn't throw many picks but when they did, they tended to be on our side of the field.

Also what about ko returns or short fields because of returns?

[mightysooner]

This opinion does not make you anywhere near an "informed" fan. It makes you a wisher, a hoper, a dreamer. Nothing wrong with that, but just because you believe losing Venables will magically win us a NC does not make you informed. At all.

More name calling and labeling people from atop Mt Olympus.

So let me take you to task here. Define for us, precisely and with facts, what makes Brent Venables a special, elite defensive coordinator would you say?

[ObiKaTony]

And does it really embarrass you when our team plays bad? I get upset, bummed out, etc. but the only way I'd be embarrassed is if I was the guy getting burned ad nauseum in the middle of the field.


Dean, if you think pointing out the obvious (OU gets exponentially better with a better D coordinator which will most likely lend itself national championships) wishful thinking, hoping, etc... then I guess I would consider you "sticking up for V" uninformed, politically correct, sanctimonious, and hopeful you will be proven right on the 12th year of the V tenure.

Dean, are you really "upset" when OU plays bad? The only way I would be upset is if I was the guy playing bad on the field. I think you get my point...

[mightysooner]

Just the facts you want to post however. Venables was a part of the 1999-2003 OU Team. He was Co-DC. It's cool how you STAT/Fact guys throw out the **** that doesn't make your point.

Clearly you don't understand titles, as in position titles. "Co-defensive coordinator" doesn't mean mean chit other than he's the next in line after Mike. He's an apprentice basically. Mike's title was Defensive Coordinator. Venables was a linebackers coach from 99-2003 and that's all he was. You're twisting facts and using hollow titles to assign gravitas to somebody they don't belong too.

[ObiKaTony]

Here is the undisputable fact about Brent Venebels: He is not a good defensive coordinator.

I challenge anyone on this board to say he is. I challenge anyone to say he is a bad coordinator because he is not, he has his moments. However, being an average d coordinator under stoops is unacceptable, and that is why I truly believe he will not be here next season. Stoops understands this, and he not going to take the heat for it.

Once again, someone on this board say he is a "good d coordinator" right now. You will get eaten up, as you should

[toast]

Clearly you don't understand titles, as in position titles. "Co-defensive coordinator" doesn't mean mean chit other than he's the next in line after Mike. He's an apprentice basically. Mike's title was Defensive Coordinator. Venables was a linebackers coach from 99-2003 and that's all he was. You're twisting facts and using hollow titles to assign gravitas to somebody they don't belong too.

I'm sure BV didn't have anything to do with the gameplans during those years.

[StoopTroup]

Clearly you don't understand titles, as in position titles. "Co-defensive coordinator" doesn't mean mean chit other than he's the next in line after Mike. He's an apprentice basically. Mike's title was Defensive Coordinator. Venables was a linebackers coach from 99-2003 and that's all he was. You're twisting facts and using hollow titles to assign gravitas to somebody they don't belong too.

Clearly you don't understand what being a part of a Coaching Staff is.

He's been there the entire time. Those are as much his Stats as Mike's. You and some other's what to give Mike all this credit and his defenses at Arizona weren't near as good. Now maybe if Brent had been with Mike....something might have been different.

I'm not twisting anything. You are just simply ignoring the truth and the facts that Brent was a part of helping Bob and the Sooners amass.

[mightysooner]

I'm sure BV didn't have anything to do with the gameplans during those years.

For the linebackers responsibilities, I'm sure he did.

[StoopTroup]

For the linebackers responsibilities, I'm sure he did.

He was Defensive Coordinator and he's a fantastic LB Coach and able to recruit LB Talent. You continue to avoid the Truth. You have taken this position and told yourself a 1000 times about how right you are about this and you are simply unable to read. It's a fact. Bob Stoops would tell you to your face that he wouldn't have had what was called "The Dream Team' he had when he came to OU if Brent Venables hadn't come with him from K-State.

[mightysooner]

Clearly you don't understand what being a part of a Coaching Staff is.

He's been there the entire time. Those are as much his Stats as Mike's. You and some other's what to give Mike all this credit and his defenses at Arizona weren't near as good. Now maybe if Brent had been with Mike....something might have been different.

I'm not twisting anything. You are just simply ignoring the truth and the facts that Brent was a part of helping Bob and the Sooners amass.

No they're not his stats as much as they are Mikes. He was a position coach. I posted his stats as a DC on page 1. Go look at them. Those are his stats. Spin, spin, spin.....

I'm still waiting for somebody, anybody, to articulate for me precisely, and with supportive facts, what makes Brent an elite DC?

[soonercoop1]

Anyone with even half a brain would agree that the most important defensive stat there is would be points-per-game by the opponent.

Some facts to ponder:

In Mike Stoops time at OU the defense gave up an average of 17 points per game.

Since Venables has taken over, the defense has given up an average of 19.9 points per game.

If you include the 3 years of M. Stoops into Venable's numbers (since he was co-coordinator) it's 19.2.

Four different years Venable's defense gave up fewer points than the best M. Stoops defense. 2003, 2004, 2006, 2009.

In M. Stoops' time we had 4 All Americans on defense an average of 1.33 per year.

In Venable's time we had 13 AAs on defense. An average of 1.3 per year.

Now someone please tell me why Mike Stoops is such a superior defensive coordinator, and why Brent Venables should be blamed for every loss? Is the drop-off that huge? Does Venables really suck, or are stupid people just wanting someone or something to burn at the stake to pacify their crushed hopes for a NC every year?

No defense of BV is required as his Ds are very average and terrible against the pass...no sugar-coating that...

[mightysooner]

He was Defensive Coordinator and he's a fantastic LB Coach and able to recruit LB Talent. You continue to avoid the Truth.

No he wasn't a DC. He was a linebackers coach. And our linebacker play hasn't scared anybody for years now.

[ObiKaTony]

...

[StoopTroup]

No defense of BV is required as his Ds are very average and terrible against the pass...no sugar-coating that...

If you say it a 1000 more times....you still won't be right.

[ObiKaTony]

Clearly you don't understand what being a part of a Coaching Staff is.

He's been there the entire time. Those are as much his Stats as Mike's. You and some other's what to give Mike all this credit and his defenses at Arizona weren't near as good. Now maybe if Brent had been with Mike....something might have been different.

I'm not twisting anything. You are just simply ignoring the truth and the facts that Brent was a part of helping Bob and the Sooners amass.


Based of pure logistics you couldn't be anymore wrong. Bob deserves more credit than Mike, Mike deserves more credit than Brent, and so on...

Many will start to blame Bob if our D keeps being average to below average year in an out, and from some pressers that have adressed these issues my money is on Brent being gone next year making this all a moot point.

[mightysooner]

If you say it a 1000 more times....you still won't be right.

If you continue to avoid and dismiss statistical proof, you won't ever sniff the zip code of being in the position of determining who's "right".

[OU_Sooners75]

If you say it a 1000 more times....you still won't be right.

Then what is right all powerful and knowing ST?

[tulsaoilerfan]

For the linebackers responsibilities, I'm sure he did.

He was Defensive Coordinator and he's a fantastic LB Coach and able to recruit LB Talent. You continue to avoid the Truth. You have taken this position and told yourself a 1000 times about how right you are about this and you are simply unable to read. It's a fact. Bob Stoops would tell you to your face that he wouldn't have had what was called "The Dream Team' he had when he came to OU if Brent Venables hadn't come with him from K-State. our linebackers as a group haven't been great for years

[OU_Sooners75]

our linebackers as a group haven't been great for years

Shh....nothing is wrong at OU. Nothing is average or below average...and if you think so, you will be taken out back and receive 50 lashes.

[agoo758]

People like Dean want our defense to continue under-achieving because he is more concerned with being nasty and vile to even the slightest complaint to reinforce his ego rather than wanting OUr Sooners to succeed. Quite sickening if you ask me, even more so considering how he accuses everyone on this board of being a non-fan.

[OU_Sooners75]

StoopTroup....

You say everyone is wrong when expressing their opinions on the defense. You say they are ignorant when showing stats and whatever that backs up their opinion.

I am not trying to make this personal or anything like that. But instead of telling everyone they are wrong and that their proof is wrong, why not tell us what is wrong with the information given or better yet, tell us how our defense is great or good?

Why not try to discredit their opinions with your own proof instead of your opinions alone?

[StoopTroup]

People like Dean want our defense to continue under-achieving because he is more concerned with being nasty and vile to even the slightest complaint to reinforce his ego rather than wanting OUr Sooners to succeed. Quite sickening if you ask me, even more so considering how he accuses everyone on this board of being a non-fan.

You don't even know Dean. Where's your Stat Sheet anyway?

[OU_Sooners75]

People like Dean want our defense to continue under-achieving because he is more concerned with being nasty and vile to even the slightest complaint to reinforce his ego rather than wanting OUr Sooners to succeed. Quite sickening if you ask me, even more so considering how he accuses everyone on this board of being a non-fan.

Dean isn't nasty and vile with people that come in and express their concerns with whatever is wrong. He is nasty and vile when you do so in a manner that is rude, demeaning, and demonstrative.

Hell, he and I disagree on the defense issue a lot...never has he gotten nasty and vile to me! Its all about the persons approach.

[agoo758]

.

[StoopTroup]

This message is hidden because OU_Sooners75 is on your ignore list (http://www.soonerfans.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

[agoo758]

Dean isn't nasty and vile with people that come in and express their concerns with whatever is wrong. He is nasty and vile when you do so in a manner that is rude, demeaning, and demonstrative.


I am going to quote this the next time he inevitably proves you wrong. I have no problem with you personally, but c'mon man.

[mightysooner]

Still waiting for an articulate and factually based defense of what makes Venables an elite DC.

[OU_Sooners75]

You don't even know Dean. Where's your Stat Sheet anyway?

So ST, the problem you have with people with differing opinions is that they have stats to back their opinions up?

It doesn't take a stat freak or a graph or a chart to understand that something is wrong with our defense. I know it is hard for people to understand that don't think anything is wrong...but there is something wrong.

Is it the talent? I highly doubt that. The talent we have on our defense can start anywhere in the nation.

Is it the players attitudes? I don't know. It doesn't seem like it though without proof.

Is it the scheme? Some games that looks to be the issue.

Is it the Defensive philosophy? Again in some games it looks like it.

Is it the coaches? The same issues have been happening the last 8 years. So I think it is fair to say that there may be a coaching problem...or at least a scheme and philosophy problem...those are the ones the players cannot control.

[agoo758]

Still waiting for an articulate and factually based defense of what makes Venables an elite DC.

This. So far all I have heard from their camp are four letters words and personal attacks on mothers.

[OU_Sooners75]

I am going to quote this the next time he inevitably proves you wrong. I have no problem with you personally, but c'mon man.

Go for it. Every time I have seen Dean get nasty with someone is when they deserved it. I am not here 24/7/365 so I could be wrong...but not from what I have seen.

[ObiKaTony]

People like Dean want our defense to continue under-achieving because he is more concerned with being nasty and vile to even the slightest complaint to reinforce his ego rather than wanting OUr Sooners to succeed. Quite sickening if you ask me, even more so considering how he accuses everyone on this board of being a non-fan.


Some people believe that "criticism" is uncalled for even when facts suggest that is the appropriate actions to take. V needs to be criticized, and most believe he needs to go. Sure, you can find some reasons for him to stay like the point total stat, but the overwhelming evidence suggests he needs to seek employment elsewhere. Once again the sanctimonious stuff needs to be thrown out the window

I have read several legitimate posts saying he should leave and it's hit back with caddy comments etc... It really is quite sad. Lets say the sooners take care of business tonight and the d plays well, sure as heck Dean will be on this post stating how stupid MOST people are for wanting V to leave. Well, I have seen several years of this defense, and it doesn't take a genius that the most logical step to take to make the d better is to hire some new blood. Our players are fast, strong, and talented enough to get the job done, but something is missing. Use common sense, and you can fill in the blank...

[OU_Sooners75]

This message is hidden because OU_Sooners75 is on your ignore list (http://www.soonerfans.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist).


That is one way of having an intelligent conversation.

Remember these?

.

You were great at them!

[Collier11]

Brent Venables came out this week and said that he deserves the criticism cus they arent playing like they should...Nuff Said

[ObiKaTony]

Still waiting for someone to tell me that Brent is a good coordinator. The fact that no one has said anything to this point is more evidence of the overwhelming majorities opinion...

[OU_Sooners75]

Brent Venables came out this week and said that he deserves the criticism cus they arent playing like they should...Nuff Said


That he deserves the criticism because they are not playing like they should?

Maybe they are not playing the way they should because his scheme and philosophy is too complicated...a scheme and philosophy that some in the NFL doesn't even touch?

[BoulderSooner79]

...Nuff Said...

Hope you're right about the "Nuff said part", but I'm not betting my paycheck on it.

[agoo758]

Brent Venables came out this week and said that he deserves the criticism cus they arent playing like they should...Nuff Said

Who are you, and what have you done to Collier?? :eek:

[Collier11]

Brent IS a good Def Coord...the thing that keeps him from being really good or great is that he doesnt seem to adjust on the fly...JMHO

[BoulderSooner79]

Hope you're right about the "Nuff said part", but I'm not betting my paycheck on it.

EDIT: too late, more said already :excitement:

[Collier11]

Hope you're right about the "Nuff said part", but I'm not betting my paycheck on it.

nice to see you too

[agoo758]

Brent IS a good Def Coord...the thing that keeps him from being really good or great is that he doesnt seem to adjust on the fly...JMHO



That's the consensus in the Venables criticizing party, and the same for Kevin Wilson for that matter. Then again, I am no coach, but it would seem to be that 40% of Coordinating would be the ability to adjust on the fly.

[cccasooner2]

Name the games that they occurred since you say numerous times....

I can recall OSU and A&M in 2002. But that is all.

IIRC, those were the two games Mike was absent most of the week for HC job interviews (tOSU and ND?? not sure).

[Collier11]

yea...he often puts in great gameplans, just doesnt change when it is needed

[StoopTroup]

Still waiting for an articulate and factually based defense of what makes Venables an elite DC.

Hell...I'm still waiting on some Stats of who the hell we should replace him with? Is there anyone that's been a DC or Asst Coach/DC for over 5 years that has better stats? Screw whether or not he's an Elite DC....who the hell are you going to replace him with?

If you are going to start some quest to fire someone because you have a feeling....you better have some idea of who you think would make things better than winning the Big XII Championship every year.

BTW....Brent Venables has a National Championship ring just like Mike Stoops has only it says Venables on the side of it.

[ObiKaTony]

Brent IS a good Def Coord...the thing that keeps him from being really good or great is that he doesnt seem to adjust on the fly...JMHO

His average team ranking on defense is 44th in the nation. This is with ELITE players in the country coming here, and that is good?

1 year prior to his tenure we were ranked 3rd on defense...

[Collier11]

you might check those opinions on our Def recruits...just ask STEP

[mightysooner]

Hell...I'm still waiting on some Stats of who the hell we should replace him with? Is there anyone that's been a DC or Asst Coach/DC for over 5 years that has better stats? Screw whether or not he's an Elite DC....who the hell are you going to replace him with?

I take it you're not up to the challenge of articulating what makes Brent an elite DC and I accept your surrender. You answered a question with a question. Not a brilliant tactic by any means, but it's definitely a tactic.


If you are going to start some quest to fire someone because you have a feeling....you better have some idea of who you think would make things better than winning the Big XII Championship every year.

A feeling? I don't have a "feeling". I have hard, verifiable data which you still haven't readz good apparently; hard performance data numbers like what most people are graded on at their jobs every day and that data says Venables scores a "needs improvement" or "below sat", at best, and belongs on a performance improvement plan.


BTW....Brent Venables has a National Championship ring just like Mike Stoops has only it says Venables on the side of it.

Given Venables defensive prowess, he should have four of those rings with his name on it right?

Anyway, so do the sideline trainers, and the guy who drives the Sooner bus, and Bob Barry Sr, and Castiglione, and the cheerleaders, and probably even Brandon Weeden. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..............

[StoopTroup]

I never said he was an Elite DC. I said he's one of the Best in Div 1A Football. It's a fact. There are tons of Stats on it. Look em up.

BTW....Jerry Sandusky isn't on my list of the best.

Your hard verifiable data has already been exposed as missing 4 years of BV's time as a DC.. LMAO

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Half of those never played for mike

Name them. I see 1

[StoopTroup]

Name them. I see 1

Did he say something he doesn't have Hard Verifiable Data on? LOL

[mightysooner]

I never said he was an Elite DC. I said he's one of the Best in Div 1A Football. It's a fact. There are tons of Stats on it. Look em up.

BTW....Jerry Sandusky isn't on my list of the best.

Your hard verifiable data has already been exposed as missing 4 years of BV's time as a DC.. LMAO

No I've already posted stats that clearly shows he's not among the best DC's in division I hardly ever. I've done my work. When you're 68th in total defense, that means 67 DC's did better than you that year. YOU made the statement that he is one of the best in the nation. YOU post your proof with factual, verifiable information, for all of us to read, that proves Brent Venables is one of the best DCs in the nation. "It's a fact" you said. If so, let's see your proof that supports your claim. I'm waiting...

[BoulderSooner79]

nice to see you too

Not aimed at you collier, I was just hoping this thread would die out because it's all heat and no light. Nuff has been said.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Is it the talent? I highly doubt that. The talent we have on our defense can start anywhere in the nation.

Is it the players attitudes? I don't know. It doesn't seem like it though without proof.

Is it the scheme? Some games that looks to be the issue.

Is it the Defensive philosophy? Again in some games it looks like it.

Is it the coaches? The same issues have been happening the last 8 years. So I think it is fair to say that there may be a coaching problem...or at least a scheme and philosophy problem...those are the ones the players cannot control.

Here is my problem with your analysis. You automatically eliminate the first option even though it is the EASIEST to validate with objectivity. You then weight your subjective opinions on other items more heavily than the objective one.

The 2000 team had 8 players play some time that year that would go on to be All Americans. Of those 8 -> 2 were drafted in the 1st round, 3 were drafted in the 2/3rd rounds, 2 were 6-7th round and 1 was undrafted. This does not include the 3rd rounder that was not an AA. All but 1 were in the back 7 which dominates college football (We then added another 2nd round pick the next year). These are objective facts.

Since that time, we have had 4 players make All American -> 1 DT, 1 S, 2 LBs. So 1/2 the AAs/draft picks in 8 years that we had in the first 4 years. If you can't objectively look at that and see that there has been a massive talent dropoff I IMPLORE you to watch a 2000 game before you watch a 2011/2 game. The difference in quality of football is night and day.

Now, I want to point out something else - 85% of those non-DL AAs was a 3 star player (or less). So trotting out stars isn't going to work in this argument. Our coaches are failing at Talent Evaluation. Period. If you want to replace them for that, so be it. Don't trot out scheme, because I've shown over and over that it isn't the scheme.

[GDC]

the only difference which really bothers me is our inability to make a big play on D when the game is on the line. We havent been able to do that for a few years now

I think this is it, more so than the coaches. OU hasn't had the Brandon Everages, Derrick Straits, Torrance Marshalls, Ontei Jones, Roy Williams type defensive players who not only beat the living **** out of and intimidated the other team but also had that intangible quality of making the big play in the big moment.

[StoopTroup]

No I've already posted stats that clearly shows he's not among the best DC's in division I hardly ever. I've done my work. When you're 68th in total defense, that means 67 DC's did better than you that year. YOU made the statement that he is one of the best in the nation. YOU post your proof with factual, verifiable information, for all of us to read, that proves Brent Venables is one of the best DCs in the nation. "It's a fact" you said. If so, let's see your proof that supports your claim. I'm waiting...


What you didn't do is post anyone with better Stats. I mean...it's easy to post how his Defense does against other defenses year to year but who has a good a Win-Loss % than him? Nobody? Anybody?

Experts go by more than what you have posted here.

Things like this list are important too. LBrs are the key to having a great Defense. Just because other Schools had better Stats doesn't immediately lead you to the Fact that the Team with the best Defense is the National Champion either. Is about how well the entire Team is. How well the head Coach and his Coaching Staff does to find that perfect Balance to pull off a MNC.

Other things that can be talked about are how many guys has he Coached that were Award Winners or went on to play in the NFL.

Prominent Pupils
• Travis Lewis (Oklahoma), 2008 Big 12 Defensive NOY, 2008 Big 12 Defensive FOY
• Keenan Clayton (Oklahoma) Eagles
• Curtis Lofton (Oklahoma), Falcons, All-American, 2007 AP Big 12 Defensive POY
• Rufus Alexander (Oklahoma), First Team All-American, 2006 Big 12 Defensive POY
• Clint Ingram (Oklahoma), Saints
• Lance Mitchell (Oklahoma) 2004 All-Big 12, Butkus Award finalist, 2002 Big 12 Defensive NOY
• Teddy Lehman (Oklahoma), Jaguars, 2003 Butkus, Bednarik Award winner, All-American
• Rocky Calmus (Oklahoma) 2001 Butkus Award winner, 2001 Big 12 Defensive POY, All-American
• Torrance Marshall (Oklahoma) First Team All-American, Big 12 Defensive NOY
• Brandon Moore (Oklahoma)
• Jeff Kelly (Kansas State) All-American, 1998 Big 12 Def. POY, 1997 Big 12 Def. NOY
• Ben Leber (Kansas State), Vikings
• Mark Simoneau (Kansas State), Saints, All-American, Butkus Finalist, 1999 Big 12 Def. POY
• Percell Gaskins (Kansas State)

You want to presume that everything on your little "What was his Defense Rated" is why we have not pulled off a MNC since 2000. It's just a part of it. You just can't blame it all on one guy. You can if you want I guess but when you immediately leave out the 4 years he was here to make your point....it just shows you are just trying to prove "YOUR POINT". It has nothing to do with Hard Verifiable Facts.

[Sooner91ATL]

I'm not saying anyone should be fired. I am of the belief, backed up by data and anecdotes and observation, that unless our defense gets better we will not compete for a national championship. Probably ranking in the top 20 should do it.

And along with that, maybe going to a little more ball control on offense to give the guys a breather on D.

[agoo758]

Hell...I'm still waiting on some Stats of who the hell we should replace him with?

A can of Tab would be an improvement for starters.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

What you didn't do is post anyone with better Stats. I mean...it's easy to post how his Defense does against other defenses year to year but who has a good a Win-Loss % than him? Nobody? Anybody?

Experts go by more than what you have posted here.

Things like this list are important too. LBrs are the key to having a great Defense. Just because other Schools had better Stats doesn't immediately lead you to the Fact that the Team with the best Defense is the National Champion either. Is about how well the entire Team is. How well the head Coach and his Coaching Staff does to find that perfect Balance to pull off a MNC.

Other things that can be talked about are how many guys has he Coached that were Award Winners or went on to play in the NFL.

Prominent Pupils
• Curtis Lofton (Oklahoma), Falcons, All-American, 2007 AP Big 12 Defensive POY
• Rufus Alexander (Oklahoma), First Team All-American, 2006 Big 12 Defensive POY
• Lance Mitchell (Oklahoma) 2004 All-Big 12, Butkus Award finalist, 2002 Big 12 Defensive NOY
• Teddy Lehman (Oklahoma), Jaguars, 2003 Butkus, Bednarik Award winner, All-American
• Rocky Calmus (Oklahoma) 2001 Butkus Award winner, 2001 Big 12 Defensive POY, All-American
• Torrance Marshall (Oklahoma) First Team All-American, Big 12 Defensive NOY
• Brandon Moore (Oklahoma)
• Jeff Kelly (Kansas State) All-American, 1998 Big 12 Def. POY, 1997 Big 12 Def. NOY
• Ben Leber (Kansas State), Vikings
• Mark Simoneau (Kansas State), Saints, All-American, Butkus Finalist, 1999 Big 12 Def. POY
• Percell Gaskins (Kansas State)

You want to presume that everything on your little "What was his Defense Rated" is why we have not pulled off a MNC since 2000. It's just a part of it. You just can't blame it all on one guy. You can if you want I guess but when you immediately leave out the 4 years he was here to make your point....it just shows you are just trying to prove "YOUR POINT". It has nothing to do with Hard Verifiable Facts.

Stoup, there were 3 guys that didn't belong on your list. When you look at the fact that the last 2 guys have been gone for 5 and 4 years respectably and then you look at our defensive rankings you see why BV hasn't been doing his job. If you further think about the fact that the last one of those guys was recruited before BV became full time DC, you begin to suspect that someone isn't putting in as much time as he once did into his position.

[FaninAma]

Dean I love ya man but you are fighting a losing battle on this one.

[zeke]

watching this crud...mark me down as a Hater

This D is not good its pretty dang bad

[Dio]

I'd love to see the Venables apologists explain away this bull****.

And Landry.... Go pro.

[zeke]

Hell, even ESPN is making jokes about the D.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I'd love to see the Venables apologists explain away this bull****.

And Landry.... Go pro.

Its not that hard. We've given up 10 points when the other team had to drive the full length of the field. All 10 were directly a result of poor linebacker play. We then gave away 7 on a 1 yard drive and 7 on a 42 yard drive where our "best" linebacker just took it from their OL and didn't even try.

Nutshell: Short field drives aren't on the DC, they are on your OC/ST.

[Collier11]

Defense looks great, bet ST will still defend BV and this Def

[Collier11]

also, for all of you who ripped KW non-stop, Heupel looks great as an off coord doesnt he

[agoo758]

also, for all of you who ripped KW non-stop, Heupel looks great as an off coord doesnt he

He has certainly had better games yes. :(

[Soonermagik]

I'd love to see the Venables apologists explain away this bull****.

And Landry.... Go pro.

The problem is no team will want him. He will want to come back, but we can only hope Stoops will nudge him in the right direction.. toward the NFL. Venables can head to North Carolina or wherever.

[Collier11]

Heupel hasnt looked fluid all year

[wishbonesooner]

Dean I respect your opinion and your loyalty. Hard to agree with you this time. If it's the players just not performing, then let's get someone who can get them motivated.

[oumartin]

VEnables is awesome!!!!
He's just waiting on right job. Lol

[Dio]

Its not that hard. We've given up 10 points when the other team had to drive the full length of the field. All 10 were directly a result of poor linebacker play. We then gave away 7 on a 1 yard drive and 7 on a 42 yard drive where our "best" linebacker just took it from their OL and didn't even try.

Nutshell: Short field drives aren't on the DC, they are on your OC/ST.

My bad. Our D is a mother****ing juggernaut. Pass that Kool Aid!

[AlboSooner]

This thread should be a sticky.

[Blue]

JKM for DC. Seriously.

[StoopTroup]

This thread should be deleted.

FIFY

[oumartin]

Jkm doesn't think a 99 yard touchdown drive is on the defense either. Just Travis Lewis.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

My bad. Our D is a mother****ing juggernaut. Pass that Kool Aid!

Pfft. I said in the pre-season that our D was going to be a Twinkee (super soft in the middle). People thought I was crazy. Our linebackers play has been HORRIBLE. I mean Blake had better Linebacker play than this.

[AlboSooner]

Middle of he field wide open? Not Brent's fault. That's just grass.

[agoo758]

Jkm doesn't think a 99 yard touchdown drive is on the defense either. Just Travis Lewis.

At least both sides are beginning to agree on Travis Lewis.

[StoopTroup]

The problem is no team will want him. He will want to come back, but we can only hope Stoops will nudge him in the right direction.. toward the NFL. Venables can head to North Carolina or wherever.

Venables could take over at K-State. I think he'd probably avoid that until he proved himself as a HC somewhere else. Of course I know there is no way anyone here is going to accept that he could possibly be successful anywhere so there really is no reason to even consider such a thing.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Jkm doesn't think a 99 yard touchdown drive is on the defense either. Just Travis Lewis.

You can't have a good defense without great linebacker play. Linebackers have to beat blocks and be playmakers. Their entire strategy was to throw out routes to push our corners to the sidelines just to run/throw it inside isolated on our linebackers.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Jkm doesn't think a 99 yard touchdown drive is on the defense either. Just Travis Lewis.

Personally I don't think Wort is all that good either. However, he looks like someone that by his senior year will be serviceable.

[StoopTroup]

At least both sides are beginning to agree on Travis Lewis.

Even I think that Tom Wort should have been left as the Leader on Defense when Travis came back after his injury. I'm guessing that Brent Venables felt that Travis' ego couldn't handle it so he left it alone seeing how Travis will graduate. If Brent made a mistake this year it was leaving TL as the leader on Defense. I think if he'd just got him calmed down and explained that he'd be able to concentrate on his play instead of be so stressed about leading the Team that he would have not only played better....but he would have improved his Stock for the impending Draft.

Of course the most important thing would to have been to just fire Venables and let LSU some SEC Team hire him the next day.

[AlboSooner]

Guys wide open in the secondary? Not Brent's fault. That's just a blown coverage.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Even I think that Tom Wort should have been left as the Leader on Defense when Travis came back after his injury. I'm guessing that Brent Venables felt that Travis' ego couldn't handle it so he left it alone seeing how Travis will graduate. If Brent made a mistake this year it was leaving TL as the leader on Defense. I think if he'd just got him calmed down and explained that he'd be able to concentrate on his play instead of be so stressed about leading the Team that he would have not only played better....but he would have improved his Stock for the impending Draft.

Of course the most important thing would to have been to just fire Venables and let LSU some SEC Team hire him the next day.

I think I pointed it out on one of your posts earlier in this thread. Brent's downfall is going to be his **** poor linebacker recruiting/evaluation/coaching.

[AlboSooner]

No talent in the roster? That's not Brent's fault, it's the players who are talentless.

[soonercoop1]

Even I think that Tom Wort should have been left as the Leader on Defense when Travis came back after his injury. I'm guessing that Brent Venables felt that Travis' ego couldn't handle it so he left it alone seeing how Travis will graduate. If Brent made a mistake this year it was leaving TL as the leader on Defense. I think if he'd just got him calmed down and explained that he'd be able to concentrate on his play instead of be so stressed about leading the Team that he would have not only played better....but he would have improved his Stock for the impending Draft.

Of course the most important thing would to have been to just fire Venables and let LSU some SEC Team hire him the next day.

If it has to be then we're Oklahoma so I'm positive we could find another D coach....

[AlboSooner]

Opposing players running though arm tackles? Not Brent's fault. Their arms need to be stronger.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Guys wide open in the secondary? Not Brent's fault. That's just a blown coverage.

Dude, you have to realize that BV wears two hats. One as the DC and One as the LB coach. He is totally at fault for all of the wide open throws underneath where the linebackers blew the coverage. He's also at fault for our linebacker play that gave up over 220 yards rushing, mostly designed to exploit the linebackers.

Now, looking at his DC duties, he didn't do that badly. We tried man early and got toasted by their 3rd WR (on ibiliyoe) so we had to go man (or otherwise they'd just run that drag all night long). We've gotten zero pressure since FA and RL got hurt. I mean what do you do? We aren't a good blitzing team and when we do get to the QB we get idiotic roughing calls.

[AlboSooner]

Dude, you have to realize that BV wears two hats. One as the DC and One as the LB coach. He is totally at fault for all of the wide open throws underneath where the linebackers blew the coverage. He's also at fault for our linebacker play that gave up over 220 yards rushing, mostly designed to exploit the linebackers.

Now, looking at his DC duties, he didn't do that badly. We tried man early and got toasted by their 3rd WR (on ibiliyoe) so we had to go man (or otherwise they'd just run that drag all night long). We've gotten zero pressure since FA and RL got hurt. I mean what do you do? We aren't a good blitzing team and when we do get to the QB we get idiotic roughing calls.

You are the head coach. Do you still keep BV in your staff after this year?

[SoonerinSouthlake]

the talent has been as good and in many cases better than when MS was here.

the difference
Swagger.
not to repeat myself from other posts today...but "I cant define it...but I know it when I see it" Its the difference between Big Game Bob, and "He shouldnt get paid that much Bob"

[btb916]

People don't remember the good performances, only the bad.

Until someone's gone. Then it's the reverse.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

You are the head coach. Do you still keep BV in your staff after this year?

Heck no. I would have put him on notice 4 years ago about the sorry state of our linebacking corps (and yes that was loftons last year, there was nothing around him) and fired him before last year.

[tulsaoilerfan]

I've never seen a group of linebackers that are blocked as easily as Lewis and Wort; in 4 years Lewis still can't shed a damn block; why doesn't Bird get some playing time? He's looked good in the limited duty he's had this season

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I've never seen a group of linebackers that are blocked as easily as Lewis and Wort; in 4 years Lewis still can't shed a damn block; why doesn't Bird get some playing time? He's looked good in the limited duty he's had this season

Think about it. Lewis is Bassey all over again. Mike Stoops hyped him to no end as being as good as TGRW. Even after the first game when it became clear that Bassey against the run was closer to Deion Sanders than TGRW, he still hyped him. It took what 6 games to finally pull him as just being a bad fit for SS. BV has spent 3 years hyping this kid, he can't bench him without 75% of the fans freaking out. Then if he benched the guy and we lost to Pokey State, he'd probably lose his job (if he doesn't already) because the ones who actually watch our players play are few and far between (most just see the results of the play, not how the play happened).

To me, the more worrying part of the night was Nelson. Lewis has only one more game here, Nelson should be the core of next year. He got blocked just as easily as the other two and continues to put his head on the wrong side of the ball carrier. I'm beginning to think that BV has just stopped coaching our LBs, I just can't see how the guy who had a string of 6-7 Big 12 POYs in like 8 years can be responsible for this if he is trying at all.

[sooneredaco]

Defense sucks that's all I know

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Defense sucks that's all I know

um, thanks?

[toast]

Think about it. Lewis is Bassey all over again. Mike Stoops hyped him to no end as being as good as TGRW. Even after the first game when it became clear that Bassey against the run was closer to Deion Sanders than TGRW, he still hyped him. It took what 6 games to finally pull him as just being a bad fit for SS. BV has spent 3 years hyping this kid, he can't bench him without 75% of the fans freaking out. Then if he benched the guy and we lost to Pokey State, he'd probably lose his job (if he doesn't already) because the ones who actually watch our players play are few and far between (most just see the results of the play, not how the play happened).

To me, the more worrying part of the night was Nelson. Lewis has only one more game here, Nelson should be the core of next year. He got blocked just as easily as the other two and continues to put his head on the wrong side of the ball carrier. I'm beginning to think that BV has just stopped coaching our LBs, I just can't see how the guy who had a string of 6-7 Big 12 POYs in like 8 years can be responsible for this if he is trying at all.

I saw Nelson's one-armed attempt at Randle and thought of TGRW's tackling philosophy of driving through the runner and smh.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

At the beginning of this season, I thought we were missing some key parts on D. Had we gotten a Juco MLB and DT, then we would have had a great shot until the injuries on the O would have doomed us.

For next year, we need some guys on the offense to grow up. Reynolds has the ability to replace Broyles, but I'm not sure he has the head. Stills thinks he's playing intramurals (wtf was that go route he did?). OL needs to get bigger and stronger and we need a TE to step in.

The D however, is a mess. We have to do something about linebacker, we need 3 guys who can shed some blocks, right now we have zero. We need some DTs that can actually hold ground and maybe just maybe command a double team.

Barring recruiting or picking up some dynamic walkon I'd say we are 10-2 next year.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I saw Nelson's one-armed attempt at Randle and thought of TGRW's tackling philosophy of driving through the runner and smh.

That is what I mean by the head position. If your head is in front, the ball carriers momentum keeps you in contact because you form a bracket around him. Nelson has repeatedly this year hit the ball carrier with his head behind him which allows the ball carrier to just shrug you off. We really at this point only have 2 guys on the D who know how to get a guy on the ground. Somewhere, Bud is drowning a kitten...

[soonerboy_odanorth]

Barring recruiting or picking up some dynamic walkon I'd say we are 10-2 next year.

Pretty optimistic then? Because to me it looks like 10-2 if we are only having to fix the defense.

No... I think we get smacked with 8-4 next year. Our O-line is not championship caliber. And we may be breaking in a new QB.

And the schedule is going to be a bear.

[colhu7]

Dang...Bob must have alot of troll accounts on this board defending his boy BV like this. lol

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Dang...Bob must have alot of troll accounts on this board defending his boy BV like this. lol

Speaking of trolling...

What most people fail to realize is that BV for a decade was the BEST LB coach in the nation. Bar None. Geez, one of his guys from the 90's is still tooling around in the pros. The problem is that since 2004, he hasn't recruited jack squat.

[wishbonesooner]

I was reading some comments from another board. Some guy commented that around these parts, getting killed like OU did costs somebody their job. At OU, it gets you a raise.

[marfacowboy]

I think he's on a downward spiral, and too many OC know how to exploit his schemes. And once a team gets a reputation for being on a downward spiral, it's hard to stop. It definitely affects recruiting.
The bottom line is the defenses he's recently produced don't compare to what LSU and Alabama have on the field. They didn't compare to what USC put on the field. On the big stage, he's outclassed.

[C&CDean]

Just a quick question: how many of the aglet's points came against our D? And of those, how many were set up by a TO that wasn't taken to the house or put them in good field position?

Our entire team sucked last night. Venables blew chunks. Stoops was clueless. Heupel was on crack. I'm not even gonna go into the namby pamby play by a certain all american linebacker, the deer in the headlights please don't kill me play of a certain QB, the "I couldn't catch the ****ing ball if it hit me in my face" play of a certain "NFL body/skills" wideout and the complete and total collapse, roll me over and eff me in the A effort of this team.

If y'all wanna blame Venables for the loss, go ahead. In fact, I hope he's gone by next year so we can see what a real elite DC looks like. I'll still be here when y'all get what you wish for. "Anybody but Brent." Meh, and heh.

[OU-HSV]

Just a quick question: how many of the aglet's points came against our D? And of those, how many were set up by a TO that wasn't taken to the house or put them in good field position?

Our entire team sucked last night. Venables blew chunks. Stoops was clueless. Heupel was on crack. I'm not even gonna go into the namby pamby play by a certain all american linebacker, the deer in the headlights please don't kill me play of a certain QB, the "I couldn't catch the ****ing ball if it hit me in my face" play of a certain "NFL body/skills" wideout and the complete and total collapse, roll me over and eff me in the A effort of this team.

If y'all wanna blame Venables for the loss, go ahead. In fact, I hope he's gone by next year so we can see what a real elite DC looks like. I'll still be here when y'all get what you wish for. "Anybody but Brent." Meh, and heh.
Although BV plays a big part of a reoccurring problem, I don't single BV out in this one. I think you summed it up very well in the part I made bold. Although certain players sucked big time, this particular game (as we've seen before in recent years), was a total team (and coaching staff) failure IMO.

That said, in regards to BV (since he was the main purpose behind this thread)...I don't b*tch about him as much as others do on here. But my feelings won't be hurt if BV moves on. I think he is lacking something, whether it's in recruiting, or coaching the players up, or teaching them in the best way, or adjusting during games, or flat out using a bad scheme...I just don't know. But something isn't working and it seems he doesn't have what it takes to figure it out. And he makes a lot of money to figure out wtf is wrong, and he hasn't done it yet.
I think at this point there must be better DC's out there that would give something new and fresh to the Sooners. I'm not saying it has to be Mike Stoops, but maybe another DC at a lesser school who has a promising resume and a proven record. Or even another defensive positional coach out there somewhere who has had success and who has a desire to be a DC. Things seem to have gotten stale so why not try something different for a change of pace.

[SoonerKnight]

Bingo!! A 100% OU teams kicks the snot out of OSU!

[PLaw]

I think it's also important to understand how the offensive schemes of the Big XII have changed in the past 5 or 6 years. That has certainly added to any increase in points allowed.

In the beginning, there were really only two teams that ran anything similar to what you see now, OU and Texas Tech. Now, with the exception of KU, it seems that every offense in the conference has a spread attack and/or a hurry up offensive tempo.

I used to rely heavily on the "it's offenses run in the Big XII" crutch, too. Then, someone made the point that OU put up 14 in MNC games against SEC defenses. OU used to choke down the Leach's spread.

Just sayin'

BOOMER

[PLaw]

the talent has been as good and in many cases better than when MS was here.

the difference
Swagger.
not to repeat myself from other posts today...but "I cant define it...but I know it when I see it" Its the difference between Big Game Bob, and "He shouldnt get paid that much Bob"

Swagger doesn't make tackles - players do. Our fundamentals have become pathetic. When we start with the basics and have sound fundamentals, then you will see the "swagger". Until then, we will continue to live on hype.

BOOMER

[C&CDean]

I used to rely heavily on the "it's offenses run in the Big XII" crutch, too. Then, someone made the point that OU put up 14 in MNC games against SEC defenses. OU used to choke down the Leach's spread.

Just sayin'

BOOMER

They've only scored 14 against SEC defenses? Really?

[FaninAma]

The reason the aglets had the turnovers is because they brought pressure and played aggressively.I don't know if it is talent or scheme or both but we look like a flag football team on defense.

OSU has no where near the talent on eefense that we have but their coach schemes to compensate. BV is completely mismatched against a team that has decent offensive talent.

[C&CDean]

The reason the aglets had the turnovers is because they brought pressure and played aggressively.I don't know if it is talent or scheme or both but we look like a flag football team on defense.

OSU has no where near the talent on eefense that we have but their coach schemes to compensate. BV is completely mismatched against a team that has decent offensive talent.

Ah, and here's the rub my friend. We don't have the talent you think we have. And it's not your fault; I mean if you read the dang papers at the beginning of the year when we're consensus #1, uber-talented, and deeper than the Grand Canyon it's real easy to get sucked in. And that's exactly what's happened to us this year. We aren't nearly as talented - especially on defense - as we were led to believe. Play on the field has proven it. You cannot blame a coach for ****-poor tackling, getting beat on almost every play, suckering all the time, etc. Yes, the coach should have someone else to put in when player A isn't hacking it, but we don't.

I know you have your mind made up that it's all on Venables, but it's simply not. Yes, Venables could do a lot better, but our players certainly have some - nay, a LOT of responsibility for performing their assignments properly. They haven't. And it's not all on the D either. Our O has sucked the large one as well and have left our D out to dry.

[sooner ngintunr]

Yeah it was the turnovers that let the pokes rush for nearly 300 yards @ 8.4 ypc. :very_drunk:

[C&CDean]

Yeah it was the turnovers that let the pokes rush for nearly 300 yards @ 8.4 ypc.

Huh? It was pathetic play, no heart, no guts, and no clue that allowed them to do whatever the **** they wanted on offense. But let's be fair, they did whatever the **** they wanted on defense too. We sucked. Collectively. Totally. Completely. OSU did not. End of story.

[wishbonesooner]

Get rid of all the cushy stuff in the locker room, get a bunch of folding chairs for the lockers, clean out the WII's and PS3"s, everybody from the top down has gotten cushy and comfortable. I think you're right Dean, we don't have the talent we think we have. But somebody can sure as hell get the players we do have to at least get after people. We might not go undefeated, but it's time to get back to making people work their *** off if they're gonna beat us.

[JiminyChristmas]

Yes, my numbers are slightly borked. I forgot Mike left after 03, not 01. Either way, he's not significantly better than Venables by any stretch. And as jkm pointed out, there was mega-talent here in 2000 on defense.

But that's OK. Some people gotta blame somebody for something. May as well be Brent. If he leaves, I wonder if the haters are gonna explode when the next guy isn't half as good.

How many of the 8 future AAs on the 2000 defense were recruited by the previous coaching staff?

I doubt our schemes are the problem. We've got to get more dominant players on defense. You've got to have the beasts up front to get pressure with 4 guys. Then, you've got to have athletes in the secondary who can lock up one on one. Throw in a couple Torrance Marshall size LBs and you are set.

Seems simple. Prying those players away from the SEC is hard. That's the conference they want to play in. That's why we should have joined it this year.

[StoopTroup]

Seems simple. Prying those players away from the SEC is hard. That's the conference they want to play in. That's why we should have joined it this year.

That seems pretty simple. A real nutshell kind of wrap up....

Everyone wants to play in the SEC huh?

Is everyone just lining up to play at 6-6 Phlorida? What about 6-6 Vanderbilt? 5-7 Kentucky? 5-7 Tennessee? 7-5 Auburn? 6-6 Mississippi State?

I'm sure they are all waiting for 2-10 Ole Miss to send them an invitation.

That BS about 2000 wasn't recruited by Stoops is a tired old Story. Thing is he has gotten OU to the National Championship 4 times and 2 of the 3 we lost we had a Team that could have just of easily won those games. The SUC Game officially isn't on the books but the thing is....Bob and Company got us to the game against a bunch of cheaters.

[oumartin]

Venables sucks,

Hell even if this team isn't talented who judged that talent

Oh wait, this is Travis Lewis and Landry Jones fault too

[JiminyChristmas]

Yes, the top flight defensive players want to play in the SEC. They want their egos stroked by being able to say, "look who wants me" to their peers. The media is continuing to fuel that fire with the SEC lovefest. You are crazy if you think that doesn't have an impact in recruiting.

Just use your eyes and look at the size and atheticism of the top flight defensive players on some of those teams. They have more of them than we do. I hate to say it, but it is true right now and only going to get worse.

[Okie35]

Just a quick question: how many of the aglet's points came against our D? And of those, how many were set up by a TO that wasn't taken to the house or put them in good field position?

Our entire team sucked last night. Venables blew chunks. Stoops was clueless. Heupel was on crack. I'm not even gonna go into the namby pamby play by a certain all american linebacker, the deer in the headlights please don't kill me play of a certain QB, the "I couldn't catch the ****ing ball if it hit me in my face" play of a certain "NFL body/skills" wideout and the complete and total collapse, roll me over and eff me in the A effort of this team.

If y'all wanna blame Venables for the loss, go ahead. In fact, I hope he's gone by next year so we can see what a real elite DC looks like. I'll still be here when y'all get what you wish for. "Anybody but Brent." Meh, and heh.

I agree with this post. I'm not really a fan of destroying and rebuilding.

[Okie35]

Yes, the top flight defensive players want to play in the SEC. They want their egos stroked by being able to say, "look who wants me" to their peers. The media is continuing to fuel that fire with the SEC lovefest. You are crazy if you think that doesn't have an impact in recruiting.

Just use your eyes and look at the size and atheticism of the top flight defensive players on some of those teams. They have more of them than we do. I hate to say it, but it is true right now and only going to get worse.

The SEC has a better collection of coaches throughout the conference as well so that's a selling point.

[StoopTroup]

I think I pointed it out on one of your posts earlier in this thread. Brent's downfall is going to be his **** poor linebacker recruiting/evaluation/coaching.

I agree to a point. I think the thing that he really had to deal with was this whole Shark thing. Travis's attitude going into the crapper if he moved him in the line up or even sat him down. What would the outcome of produced? I guess we'll never know for sure but I still think he screwed up dealing with Travis last year. He should have sat him down after the injury this year IMO. He didn't. Was it due to loyalty and what he promised Travis? Was it because it would kill Travis' run for an NFL shot? No idea but unless Travis has a terrific Combine....I don't see him starting as a linebacker in the NFL anytime soon. Maybe he makes a Special Teams Roster. Still.....it leaves Brent with another guy on his list that he developed into a NFL Prospect. That helps recruiting as long as you don't get another guy that shines like a SuperNova as a Freshman and then takes the easier safer slow ride for 4 years. Would Travis been the leader on D if Austin had returned? I say probably not. Austin had everything a Coach looks for. Desire and a winning attitude. Travis is about Travis. It's really hard for me to bang on Venables just because of the situation that happened in pre-season. To say Venables did a **** job recruiting is quite a slam in the face when it comes to Austin. The guy was awesome. Had he been in the line up....a lot of things would have been very different IMO. I think this entire Fire Venables is a huge mistake and it's just an opportunistic attack by folks who haven't like Brent since Mike left.

[StoopTroup]

Yes, the top flight defensive players want to play in the SEC. They want their egos stroked by being able to say, "look who wants me" to their peers. The media is continuing to fuel that fire with the SEC lovefest. You are crazy if you think that doesn't have an impact in recruiting.

Just use your eyes and look at the size and atheticism of the top flight defensive players on some of those teams. They have more of them than we do. I hate to say it, but it is true right now and only going to get worse.

All the SEC has going for them right now is 3 Teams. Bama, LSU and Arkansas have been pretty consistent but OU has never ever competed with any of them for Talent. Not everyone wants to go to an SEC School. Kids do grow up to become superstars right here in little old Oklahoma and when they do....they come to OU. It's possible that we lose some guys but to say that the SEC gets all the guys that become NFL Caliber LBackers is just some **** you are making up.

Sam Acho Cardinals - Texas

Round one Draft Pick by New England in 2011 "Nate Solder" - Colorado

Ravens ILB Jameel McClain - Syracuse 4th Season in the NFL

Steelers....ILB Sylvester Stephenson, 2nd year NFL Arizona State

Steelers...OLB Jason Worilds, 2nd year NFL V-Tech

These aren't guys I made up. They are just a few I clicked on that are playing on an NFL Roster and on some Teams that are potential NFL Playoff Rosters.

Sure I can find some guys that got drafted from the SEC in the 2nd or 3rd round.....maybe even walked on. Thing is...just a few clicks of the mouse can blow holes in the whole SEC gets all the best players. It's simply not true.

[ObiKaTony]

I agree to a point. I think the thing that he really had to deal with was this whole Shark thing. Travis's attitude going into the crapper if he moved him in the line up or even sat him down. What would the outcome of produced? I guess we'll never know for sure but I still think he screwed up dealing with Travis last year. He should have sat him down after the injury this year IMO. He didn't. Was it due to loyalty and what he promised Travis? Was it because it would kill Travis' run for an NFL shot? No idea but unless Travis has a terrific Combine....I don't see him starting as a linebacker in the NFL anytime soon. Maybe he makes a Special Teams Roster. Still.....it leaves Brent with another guy on his list that he developed into a NFL Prospect. That helps recruiting as long as you don't get another guy that shines like a SuperNova as a Freshman and then takes the easier safer slow ride for 4 years. Would Travis been the leader on D if Austin had returned? I say probably not. Austin had everything a Coach looks for. Desire and a winning attitude. Travis is about Travis. It's really hard for me to bang on Venables just because of the situation that happened in pre-season. To say Venables did a **** job recruiting is quite a slam in the face when it comes to Austin. The guy was awesome. Had he been in the line up....a lot of things would have been very different IMO. I think this entire Fire Venables is a huge mistake and it's just an opportunistic attack by folks who haven't like Brent since Mike left.

I think folks like me saw a defense get progressively worse this year. I think the VAST majority of fans have seen a defense get progressively worse from when V took over, and saw how bad it could get at tech, baylor, and now OSU. I think folks like me didn't have a problem with Brent taking over after Mike left, after all, he worked under Mike. However, we now see a defense ranked in the bottom tier of college football, we see a defense that gave up RECORD numbers this season, and a defense that flat out can't tackle or get into position.

So you think it's a mistake to rid ourselves of a coordinator that plays favorites, and coaches a defense that was either badly recruited or not coached up for several seasons? Pick your poison: He either can't recruit, coach, or make a good decision that effects the team rather than the individual player. Either way, I don't see any legitimate argument for V to stay, besides an individuals sanctimonious believe he or she should rise above an argument...

The evidence is so overwhelming (as the majority that wants Venebles to leave) that he is an average to below average coordinator I would question anyone sanity, ability to calculate simple stats, or resolve the simplest of life’s questions.

Once again I ask. WHEN! V leaves, could the defense be any worse than this year? Stoops is going to recruit blue chip players, the question is can those players be coached up. The answer is quite clear under Venebles, NO...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

How many of the 8 future AAs on the 2000 defense were recruited by the previous coaching staff?

I doubt our schemes are the problem. We've got to get more dominant players on defense. You've got to have the beasts up front to get pressure with 4 guys. Then, you've got to have athletes in the secondary who can lock up one on one. Throw in a couple Torrance Marshall size LBs and you are set.

Seems simple. Prying those players away from the SEC is hard. That's the conference they want to play in. That's why we should have joined it this year.

That's a bunch of crap. Those players are going to TCU and some of the other smaller schools. Heck Iowa State's #20 was better than any of our linebackers by a large margin. We've just become to lazy to find them.

[StoopTroup]

I think folks like me saw a defense get progressively worse this year. I think the VAST majority of fans have seen a defense get progressively worse from when V took over, and saw how bad it could get at tech, baylor, and now OSU. I think folks like me didn't have a problem with Brent taking over after Mike left, after all, he worked under Mike. However, we now see a defense ranked in the bottom tier of college football, we see a defense that gave up RECORD numbers this season, and a defense that flat out can't tackle or get into position.

So you think it's a mistake to rid ourselves of a coordinator that plays favorites, and coaches a defense that was either badly recruited or not coached up for several seasons? Pick your poison: He either can't recruit, coach, or make a good decision that effects the team rather than the individual player. Either way, I don't see any legitimate argument for V to stay, besides an individuals sanctimonious believe he or she should rise above an argument...

The evidence is so overwhelming (as the majority that wants Venebles to leave) that he is an average to below average coordinator I would question anyone sanity, ability to calculate simple stats, or resolve the simplest of life’s questions.

Once again I ask. WHEN! V leaves, could the defense be any worse than this year? Stoops is going to recruit blue chip players, the question is can those players be coached up. The answer is quite clear under Venebles, NO...


Still yet Venables had the #8th Defense in the Nation just not so long ago. Mike didn't recruit that. Brent did. We didn't win the MNC because we had a lousy Defense. We didn't Score. Our Offense locked up. This whole Several Seasons is only blown out of proportion because there has been this growing number of people who continue to call for Venables to be fired since Mike Stoops was here and helped his Brother win it all in 2000. We have folks who throw out the fact that Venables was not only coordinator then but they then throw out his #8 Defense ranking like it was some sort of freak accident.

Stoops believes in the guy as not only DC but as his Asst Head Coach. They made a attempt to replace our Defensive Secondary Coaching position with a controversial guy like Martinez who's Secondary has been less than stellar the last two years. Was that a mistake or is it that Willie just hasn't had a chance to recruit guys he can relate to? Who knows. I haven't like him since he got here. If there is a change.....that's the one I would make but again....Maybe Stoops and Brent know something we don't and that they are putting together a group of kids who just weren't ready this year.

It's not that clear. You are just another guy that isn't SCREAMING FIRE VENABLES...instead you type it lightly....lol....but you have no idea or at least offer no qualified replacements.....you simply post a bunch of gas that has been spewed out of some OU poster's anus' for around 8 years.

[delhalew]

That's a bunch of crap. Those players are going to TCU and some of the other smaller schools. Heck Iowa State's #20 was better than any of our linebackers by a large margin. We've just become to lazy to find them.
Do you have anything to add to that? I tend to trust your opinion on this topic, but it seems outlandish.

Bob and BV have to be fully aware of the importance of nailing recruiting.How could Brent half-*** something so vital? Too comfortable?

[oumartin]

Do you have anything to add to that? I tend to trust your opinion on this topic, but it seems outlandish.

Bob and BV have to be fully aware of the importance of nailing recruiting.How could Brent half-*** something so vital? Too comfortable?



Cuz brent sucks and bobby won't can his little buddy

[AlboSooner]

The problem is mutli-fold and complicated. The quick- scoring offense definitely hurts the defense. No spread offense quick scoring teams has ever had a good defense.

The one to blame is Stoops. He abandoned the philosophy of ball control for the philosophy of outscoring them. Which is shocking since he used to be a defensive minded coach.

You cant score quickly and not wear out your defense.

The 2004 offense is what I think of OU football. Emphasis on the run but also pass at will.

[OU_Sooners75]

I am waiting to see what Dean has to say about last night.

[ObiKaTony]

Still yet Venables had the #8th Defense in the Nation just not so long ago. Mike didn't recruit that. Brent did. We didn't win the MNC because we had a lousy Defense. We didn't Score. Our Offense locked up. This whole Several Seasons is only blown out of proportion because there has been this growing number of people who continue to call for Venables to be fired since Mike Stoops was here and helped his Brother win it all in 2000. We have folks who throw out the fact that Venables was not only coordinator then but they then throw out his #8 Defense ranking like it was some sort of freak accident.

Stoops believes in the guy as not only DC but as his Asst Head Coach. They made a attempt to replace our Defensive Secondary Coaching position with a controversial guy like Martinez who's Secondary has been less than stellar the last two years. Was that a mistake or is it that Willie just hasn't had a chance to recruit guys he can relate to? Who knows. I haven't like him since he got here. If there is a change.....that's the one I would make but again....Maybe Stoops and Brent know something we don't and that they are putting together a group of kids who just weren't ready this year.

It's not that clear. You are just another guy that isn't SCREAMING FIRE VENABLES...instead you type it lightly....lol....but you have no idea or at least offer no qualified replacements.....you simply post a bunch of gas that has been spewed out of some OU poster's anus' for around 8 years.


LOL!
I guess you are part of the sanctimonious crowd that probably can't figure out some of life’s simpler questions…

I have been reading posts on this board since 99 dude, I have kept my mouth shut about Venebles for years, and the only reason why I "type it lightly" now is because the evidence is SO clear and conclusive, this man needs to go, it literally offends common sense anyone else should have a different view. Of course the exception being loyalty, or a self fulfilling opinion to make yourself feel you are “the better person”

The 8th best defense you cherry picked was after he had the 68th best defense. The year after the 8th best defense, he had the 53rd best defense. Currently he is in charge of the 52nd best defense, and that doesn’t account for the beat down last night. It's not like he has been here 2 years. The defense is getting WORSE, and we are breaking defensive records (the bad kind) Now we have individuals like yourself calling out fans who relay the obvious "just another fan screaming" Actually sir, the reason why it sounds like a scream now, is because the VAST MAJORITY is saying it. I hear a faint whisper...oh, that is just you and 5 others saying he should stay. You are just upset, you have been proven wrong. Man-up and take your lumps!

Mike’s defense was ranked 8, 4, 10, and 3. This year we had the talent, and don’t take my word for it, I just listened to Stoops. This defense had year to get better (older and wiser) and they got worse. Just more evidence that you clearly refuse to see.

[StoopTroup]

LOL!
I guess you are part of the sanctimonious crowd that probably can't figure out some of life’s simpler questions…

I have been reading posts on this board since 99 dude, I have kept my mouth shut about Venebles for years, and the only reason why I "type it lightly" now is because the evidence is SO clear and conclusive, this man needs to go, it literally offends common sense anyone else should have a different view. Of course the exception being loyalty, or a self fulfilling opinion to make yourself feel you are “the better person”

The 8th best defense you cherry picked was after he had the 68th best defense. The year after the 8th best defense, he had the 53rd best defense. Currently he is in charge of the 52nd best defense, and that doesn’t account for the beat down last night. It's not like he has been here 2 years. The defense is getting WORSE, and we are not breaking defensive records (the bad kind) Now we have individuals like yourself calling out fans who relay the obvious "just another fan screaming" Actually sir, the reason why it sounds like a scream now, is because the VAST MAJORITY is saying it. I hear a faint whisper...oh, that is just you and 5 others saying he should stay. You are just upset, you have been proven wrong. Man-up and take your lumps!

Mike’s defense was ranked 8, 4, 10, and 3. This year we had the talent, and don’t take my word for it, I just listened to Stoops. This defense had year to get better (older and wiser) and they got worse. Just more evidence that you clearly refuse to see.


You still offer zero candidates. You still fail to admit that Venables was the DC when Mike posted those numbers as Asst head Coach. You cherry picked it all. If you are now just deciding to post....maybe you should just continue to keep your pie hole stuffed with whatever you had plugging before now.

Folks are looking for a guy that posts numbers like Mike did. Mike ain't coming back.

Venables has a long career as a decent DC. I'll take his credentials over your.....I don't care who we get but he has to go!

[OU_Sooners75]

After last night....

OU's defensive stat rankings:

Rushing Defense: 49th (138.58 ypg)
Passing Defense: 83rd (243.58 ypg)
Total Defense: 62nd (383.17 ypg)
Scoring Defense: 37th (22.75)

[OU_Sooners75]

You still offer zero candidates. You still fail to admit that Venables was the DC when Mike posted those numbers as Asst head Coach. You cherry picked it all. If you are now just deciding to post....maybe you should just continue to keep your pie hole stuffed with whatever you had plugging before now.


ST, are you suggesting OU cannot get better than BV?

[ObiKaTony]

You still offer zero candidates. You still fail to admit that Venables was the DC when Mike posted those numbers as Asst head Coach. You cherry picked it all. If you are now just deciding to post....maybe you should just continue to keep your pie hole stuffed with whatever you had plugging before now.

After the obvious angry retort, Ill just give myself the check-mate.

(Mike Stoops on the sideline of the texas tech game should give you the candidate Stoops as already chosen. In my humble opinion, I don't believe Stoops would bring em there for fun and giggles)

[pphilfran]

No d tackle stepped up as needed...

Losing Box...

Lewis with a bad wheel running like he is in concrete...

They played poorly and as you say they failed to improve from last year or as this year progressed...

[ObiKaTony]

I believe another part to this equation is the fact that Venebles has been here a LONG time. I believe it's human nature to get burnt out, stressed out, etc... That is not Venebles fault, it's just what happens in all professions. Of course, I might be just another SCREAMING fan telling obvious truths...

No other team has picked this guy up, mmm???

[oumartin]

I think venables is actually jkm. Please spend more time coaching and less time posting

Plzkthnx

[StoopTroup]

After the obvious angry retort, Ill just give myself the check-mate.

(Mike Stoops on the sideline of the texas tech game should give you the candidate Stoops as already chosen. In my humble opinion, I don't believe Stoops would bring em there for fun and giggles)

It's not angry. It's the truth slapping you in the face.

OU's Defense has had BV involved in it for years. You can change the numbers around to suit yourself or your position but you can't make them go away. The guy everyone is looking for to replace BV simply doesn't exist or Bob would have him at OU right now. Stoops has put out a long string of Head Coaches that have been on his Team in past years. They didn't get moved on to other Schools because of all those lousy defenses you think we've had. What a good number of folks who believe those chart continue to miss about rankings is that they are a result of the Strength of Schedule the Sooners have played over the years. We continue to be a Top Ten Team over the years that many of you state were defensive collapses. We did play for the MNC in 2008, Last year we won a BCS Bowl Game. The year before we lose to potential Heisman Candidates and win a Sun Bowl Trophy over a Team that had a Heisman Trophy winner on it. WE STOPPED HIM. That was defense. Gerald McCoy went to the NFL too. Yeah that's bad recruiting.

Reset the skill level on your chess set skippy.

[StoopTroup]

I believe another part to this equation is the fact that Venebles has been here a LONG time. I believe it's human nature to get burnt out, stressed out, etc... That is not Venebles fault, it's just what happens in all professions. Of course, I might be just another SCREAMING fan telling obvious truths...

No other team has picked this guy up, mmm???

No other Team will pay the salary he has, He's an Asst head Coach and DC and LB Coach. He's on his way to being a Head Coach. What hurts him is this entire delusion that the Media has that the only Conference that has decent Coaches is the SEC. That's about as solid as someone saying the only decent LBers recruited are in the SEC. It's a SEC lovefest right now. Venables is one of the last guys of the original Dream Team Stoops brought with him in 1999. Cale Gundy and Bobby Jack Wright are also still here. Timing is everything. Josh Heupel knows all about that. His offense got stuffed last night. Is Josh burnt out? I think not. He's really got some work to do between the last Kevin Wilson recruits and his and Silent Jay's own Recruits. We have had a difficult Season but this little crying and whining session you are trying to stir up only continues to lead to an assumption that not a one of you know what the **** you are talking about. It's just more of a whiney, crying little bitchfest and pretty sickening to be a part of.

[AzianSooner]

It is still TRUE that Bob won hi ONLY NC with players recruited by John Blake.

[OU_Sooners75]

It's not angry. It's the truth slapping you in the face.

OU's Defense has had BV involved in it for years. You can change the numbers around to suit yourself or your position but you can't make them go away. The guy everyone is looking for to replace BV simply doesn't exist or Bob would have him at OU right now. Stoops has put out a long string of Head Coaches that have been on his Team in past years. They didn't get moved on to other Schools because of all those lousy defenses you think we've had. What a good number of folks who believe those chart continue to miss about rankings is that they are a result of the Strength of Schedule the Sooners have played over the years. We continue to be a Top Ten Team over the years that many of you state were defensive collapses. We did play for the MNC in 2008, Last year we won a BCS Bowl Game. The year before we lose to potential Heisman Candidates and win a Sun Bowl Trophy over a Team that had a Heisman Trophy winner on it. WE STOPPED HIM. That was defense. Gerald McCoy went to the NFL too. Yeah that's bad recruiting.

Reset the skill level on your chess set skippy.

I can name quite a few DCs or former DCs that have been around since BV took over and that have been better....

Charlie Strong
Bud Foster
Will Muschamp
Gene Chizik
Mark Stoops
Monty Kiffin

There have been plenty that could have been hired by Stoops...and werent.

I know I am on your ignore list...and that is fine...but you make some of the dumbest arguments.

As far as head coaches that came from Stoops tree...

Leach (not sure if you can say he is really a stoops tree)
Mangino
Mike Stoops
Chuck Long
Kevin Wilson
Kevin Sumlin

The thing is...none of them got their coaching start with Bob Stoops. They all had other mentors, like Bill Snyder or Hayden Fry.

The closest coach that has been with Stoops to say he is learning from Stoops is Venables. He was a GA 3 seasons and an assistant 2 seasons at KSU before coming to OU.

That said, you honestly think there is nothing wrong with OU's defense...and so you continue to be the pumper of BV.

Must be sad to live in denial.

[wishbonesooner]

ST, if you think what we've seen the last couple of years is GOOD defense, you might think twice about belittling someone. Fans all over college football have been saying it on message boards. Are they coaches? Hell no. When receivers run wide open play after play, DB's bite on play action over and over and over, RB's run thru arm tackles time after time, dude that ain't good defense, and you don't have to have coaching experience to see it. Are you afraid OU won't attract a quality coach? That's absurd. "Let's not change poor performance 'cause we might not get anybody better". Did you freaking see LSU's defense yesterday? Their DC is the only coach in the country that can get players ready to perform like that?

[OU_Sooners75]

No other Team will pay the salary he has, He's an Asst head Coach and DC and LB Coach. He's on his way to being a Head Coach. What hurts him is this entire delusion that the Media has that the only Conference that has decent Coaches is the SEC. That's about as solid as someone saying the only decent LBers recruited are in the SEC. It's a SEC lovefest right now. Venables is one of the last guys of the original Dream Team Stoops brought with him in 1999. Cale Gundy and Bobby Jack Wright are also still here. Timing is everything. Josh Heupel knows all about that. His offense got stuffed last night. We have had a difficult Season but this little crying and whining session you are trying to stir up only continues to lead to an assumption that not a one of you know what the **** you are talking about. it's just more of a whiney, crying little bitchfest and pretty sickening to be a part of.

Why hasn't he had a HC job? Why aren't more and more teams lining up for him?

He is not headed to being a Head Coach unless a team takes a serious chance on him. The shear fact that he doesn't have the schools lining up for him suggests that he is not HC material. His product that he puts on the field suggests he is not DC material either.

[ObiKaTony]

It's not angry. It's the truth slapping you in the face.

OU's Defense has had BV involved in it for years. You can change the numbers around to suit yourself or your position but you can't make them go away. The guy everyone is looking for to replace BV simply doesn't exist or Bob would have him at OU right now. Stoops has put out a long string of Head Coaches that have been on his Team in past years. They didn't get moved on to other Schools because of all those lousy defenses you think we've had. What a good number of folks who believe those chart continue to miss about rankings is that they are a result of the Strength of Schedule the Sooners have played over the years. We continue to be a Top Ten Team over the years that many of you state were defensive collapses. We did play for the MNC in 2008, Last year we won a BCS Bowl Game. The year before we lose to potential Heisman Candidates and win a Sun Bowl Trophy over a Team that had a Heisman Trophy winner on it. WE STOPPED HIM. That was defense. Gerald McCoy went to the NFL too. Yeah that's bad recruiting.

Reset the skill level on your chess set skippy.

I already reset the board once when you threw it off the table with what amounted to you blowing your cork. What you say is "truth" the majority on this board and soonerfans around the USA call insanity. BTW Toby Gearhart didn't win the heisman for stanford, so no, OU didn't play a team in the sun bowl with a heisman trophy winner...

OU's offense has carried this team on it's back for years. Case in point: You mention Mccoy, fine. That same year, Bradford, Gresham, and trent williams went on the offense. since 2004 OU has been an offensive team, with the defense being the weakest link...OUr d doesn't carry this team in the top 25 (check the damn stats over several years)

Ironic at best you try and make your point by saying Stoops has coached up his staff to higher positions. The problem with that Skippy, is that Venebels has been to several schools and not one has hired him. Great point, proving my point!

Ok, Skill level set again, down 6 notches since we started...

[AzianSooner]

Do you think the new guy from Georgia coaching secondary is good? the secondary seems to be a big poo poo in TT and Baylor game. OU did not have the mean deamenor or wreak havoc defense like the SEC has. OU defense is not that mean or good level.

[oudavid1]

http://i43.tinypic.com/67i1i0.jpg

Just trying to lighten the mood :D

[ObiKaTony]

No other Team will pay the salary he has, He's an Asst head Coach and DC and LB Coach. He's on his way to being a Head Coach. What hurts him is this entire delusion that the Media has that the only Conference that has decent Coaches is the SEC. That's about as solid as someone saying the only decent LBers recruited are in the SEC. It's a SEC lovefest right now. Venables is one of the last guys of the original Dream Team Stoops brought with him in 1999. Cale Gundy and Bobby Jack Wright are also still here. Timing is everything. Josh Heupel knows all about that. His offense got stuffed last night. Is Josh burnt out? I think not. He's really got some work to do between the last Kevin Wilson recruits and his and Silent Jay's own Recruits. We have had a difficult Season but this little crying and whining session you are trying to stir up only continues to lead to an assumption that not a one of you know what the **** you are talking about. It's just more of a whiney, crying little bitchfest and pretty sickening to be a part of.


You will notice I wasn't screaming FIRE JOSH, or JOSH SUCKS! He has only been here a year, and he has shown ability to make half time adjustments, and season ones (bell dozer etc)

However, with Venebles most people, including myself have seen enough. Venebles has tried to get hire man, no one is picking em up...

Perhaps you could be V's atty. You seem to be able to come up with every excuse for every scenario...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Do you have anything to add to that? I tend to trust your opinion on this topic, but it seems outlandish.

Bob and BV have to be fully aware of the importance of nailing recruiting.How could Brent half-*** something so vital? Too comfortable?

So historically since 1970, This is the breakdown of LBs drafted in the first 5 rounds by conference

12.31% ACC
18.64% Big 10
10.70% Big 12
5.06% Big East
24.05% Minor
1.61% Notre Dame
13.58% Pac 10
14.04% SEC

Please note that the Nebraska switch takes 3% away from us and gives it to the big 10. Similarly Colorado is another 1.5%. So pre-defections the Big 12 was #2 in putting linebackers into the pros.

During the Stoops era, this has changed to the following:

17.61% ACC
18.66% Big 10
7.75% Big 12
5.99% Big East
20.77% Minor
0.70% Notre Dame
13.38% Pac 10
15.14% SEC

OU Personally has gone from 2.76% (all through 1970) to 2.46% under Stoops and 2% over the last 5 years

Just looking at the region though (Since 1970):

15.09% Oklahoma
12.58% Texas A&M
8.18% Texas
8.18% Colorado
6.29% Arkansas
6.29% Louisiana State
4.40% Baylor
3.77% Kansas

Since 1999

18.92% Oklahoma
13.51% Texas
8.11% Texas Christian
8.11% Texas A&M
8.11% Kansas State
8.11% Louisiana State
8.11% Arkansas
5.41% New Mexico

Since 2005

25.00% Texas
20.00% Oklahoma
15.00% Texas Christian
10.00% Louisiana State
5.00% Colorado
5.00% Texas A&M
5.00% Texas-El Paso
5.00% Missouri
5.00% Arkansas
5.00% New Mexico

[LiveLaughLove]

I think its pretty clear that BV has not been what we all had hoped he would be as a DC. I thought he was a psycho when he first got here, and thought his defenses would be psycho also.

They arent even psych'ed.

I'm not calling for him to go, but I wouldnt be sad if he got gone one way or another. OU should never field defenses that we have seen this year alone, and he has been fielding them for several years now.

Last night however, was on the offense mostly.

[ObiKaTony]

ST, looks like you have alot of chess matches you are playing right now.

Guys, ST obviously cares about OU football and the coaches. I think that is very noble of him, however, he is very upset that thsoe screaming FIRE VENEBLES! whether they knew the issues or not were proven to be right. Now, the apologists are out in force (all 5 of them) and no matter what you say, they will hold their ground. They will call you names, and say you scream etc...

Cats out of the bag, and Venebles is on his way out the door...

[Dale Ellis]

Anyone with even half a brain would agree that the most important defensive stat there is would be points-per-game by the opponent.

Some facts to ponder:

In Mike Stoops time at OU the defense gave up an average of 17 points per game.

Since Venables has taken over, the defense has given up an average of 19.9 points per game.

If you include the 3 years of M. Stoops into Venable's numbers (since he was co-coordinator) it's 19.2.

Four different years Venable's defense gave up fewer points than the best M. Stoops defense. 2003, 2004, 2006, 2009.

In M. Stoops' time we had 4 All Americans on defense an average of 1.33 per year.

In Venable's time we had 13 AAs on defense. An average of 1.3 per year.

Now someone please tell me why Mike Stoops is such a superior defensive coordinator, and why Brent Venables should be blamed for every loss? Is the drop-off that huge? Does Venables really suck, or are stupid people just wanting someone or something to burn at the stake to pacify their crushed hopes for a NC every year?

and we still got beat 44-10, but hey I feel much better knowing that Mike Stoops isn't that much better than Brent V.

[StoopTroup]

ST, if you think what we've seen the last couple of years is GOOD defense, you might think twice about belittling someone. Fans all over college football have been saying it on message boards. Are they coaches? Hell no. When receivers run wide open play after play, DB's bite on play action over and over and over, RB's run thru arm tackles time after time, dude that ain't good defense, and you don't have to have coaching experience to see it. Are you afraid OU won't attract a quality coach? That's absurd. "Let's not change poor performance 'cause we might not get anybody better". Did you freaking see LSU's defense yesterday? Their DC is the only coach in the country that can get players ready to perform like that?

Are you talking about this year or last year or is this just some sort of general knee jerk reaction? I'm not belittling anyone.

Folks are free to talk football or free to put me on ignore. I have a couple of really whiney "My way or the highway" jerk offs on ignore right now. Just because a bunch of folks are upset all over the message boards...I don't know why that would have anything to do with me. I post here almost exclusively. I have been here since before Stoops was HC. Folks should just calm down. The Season is over. There is gonna be a Bowl Game that I hope we win but I haven't got much reason to believe that right now....we can't beat anyone right now. Last night was an incredible failure by our Offense to pound out a win. It really broke the back of our Defense who were out there not only playing to win....but also playing for one of their lost Team mates. A sad deal to have happen IMO. Josh and Jay really have some work to do between now and the Bowl Game.

I remember once I was at the Red and White Game. I think it was the year Jason and Nate were trying to decide who was gonna start. Mangino pulled the entire offense line and sat them on the bench and started screaming at them. I think it went something like this. "If any of you GD pussies think you are gonna play on my Team...you have another ****ing thing coming! You ****ing sit here on this GD Bench and watch your playing time disappear!"

The damn guy scared the **** out of me. I thought he was gonna have a heart Attack. That's what's missing on this Team. I know Venables does it. You can just watch him out there Coaching his *** off every down. Jay? Not so much. It's a completely different Style. I like Brents and I think he's had some breakdowns at times but I'll take a guy that I think is capable of spitting out a #8 Defnse every few years over this eternal search for someone like Mike. It's pure insanity.

[ObiKaTony]

Mike's defenses:
2000 - #8 Oklahoma 12 809 3347 4.14 25 278.92 12 0
2001 - #4 Oklahoma 12 813 3154 3.88 18 262.83 10 2
2002 - #10 Oklahoma 14 928 4104 4.42 27 293.14 12 2
2003 - #3 Oklahoma 14 881 3635 4.13 27 259.64 12 2


That burns up the entire point of this thread...

[StoopTroup]

ST, looks like you have alot of chess matches you are playing right now.

Guys, ST obviously cares about OU football and the coaches. I think that is very noble of him, however, he is very upset that thsoe screaming FIRE VENEBLES! whether they knew the issues or not were proven to be right. Now, the apologists are out in force (all 5 of them) and no matter what you say, they will hold their ground. They will call you names, and say you scream etc...

Cats out of the bag, and Venebles is on his way out the door...

Ummm...you are the one that declared Checkmate. Obviously you don't know **** about chess either. LMAO

[StoopTroup]

Mike's defenses:
2000 - #8 Oklahoma 12 809 3347 4.14 25 278.92 12 0
2001 - #4 Oklahoma 12 813 3154 3.88 18 262.83 10 2
2002 - #10 Oklahoma 14 928 4104 4.42 27 293.14 12 2
2003 - #3 Oklahoma 14 881 3635 4.13 27 259.64 12 2


That burns up the entire point of this thread...

Brent Venables....

1999-2003 - Oklahoma
Co-Defensive Coordinator, Linebackers

Sure it does. Learn something here. Just try...even a little. Mocking birds are everywhere....get some ear muffs.

[ObiKaTony]

Ummm...you are the one that declared Checkmate. Obviously you don't know **** about chess either. LMAO

I know, our game is over (I called check mate) the point of the post (guess it passed you by) was that you are arguing with a bunch of people that think you are flat out wrong, hence playing the same chess game we just played. LOL!

BTW, love the language. It's so clear you have lost. Perhaps you should just give up. The other 4 I mention that are on your side are getting embarrassed.

[OU_Sooners75]

I know, our game is over (I called check mate) the point of the post (guess it passed you by) was that you are arguing with a bunch of people that think you are flat out wrong, hence playing the same chess game we just played. LOL!

BTW, love the language. It's so clear you have lost. Perhaps you should just give up. The other 4 I mention that are on your side are getting embarrassed.

You're wasting your breath and time posting it.

[ObiKaTony]

Brent Venables....

1999-2003 - Oklahoma
Co-Defensive Coordinator, Linebackers

Sure it does. Learn something here. Just try...even a little. Mocking birds are everywhere....get some ear muffs.


2007 - #26 Oklahoma 14 951 4737 4.98 34 338.36 11 3
2008 - #68 Oklahoma 14 996 5148 5.17 45 367.71 12 2
2009 - #8 Oklahoma 13 866 3544 4.09 22 272.62 8 5
2010 - #53 Oklahoma 14 1000 5066 5.07 35 361.86 12 2
2011 - #63 Oklahoma 11 799 4103 5.14 28 373.00 (currently)

Brent V w/o mike stoops and no co-defensive cord... (with his recruits, his message, his defense) Everyone on the planet knew Mike was calling the shots on that d. Get a clue from the birds...

[wishbonesooner]

Mike Shmike. Mike left. You think that in all of college football there is no outstanding DC that would come to OU? Seriously?

[StoopTroup]

2007 - #26 Oklahoma 14 951 4737 4.98 34 338.36 11 3
2008 - #68 Oklahoma 14 996 5148 5.17 45 367.71 12 2
2009 - #8 Oklahoma 13 866 3544 4.09 22 272.62 8 5
2010 - #53 Oklahoma 14 1000 5066 5.07 35 361.86 12 2
2011 - #63 Oklahoma 11 799 4103 5.14 28 373.00 (currently)

Brent V w/o mike stoops and no co-defensive cord... (with his recruits, his message, his defense) Everyone on the planet knew Mike was calling the shots on that d. Get a clue from the birds...

Really? Did Mike call them all at Arizona? Seriously my friend. Mike was a Good Assistant but he had a lot of help back then. It's why we were so damn good. You are right...someone needs to get a clue...it's not me though. You didn't read anything about what I said about Strength of schedule so why don't you just stop making a jackass out of yourself. We got plenty of that here already.

[OU_Sooners75]

Really? Did Mike call them all at Arizona? Seriously my friend. Mike was a Good Assistant but he had a lot of help back then. It's why we were so damn good. You are right...someone needs to get a clue...and it's me.


heh

[StoopTroup]

Mike Shmike. Mike left. You think that in all of college football there is no outstanding DC that would come to OU? Seriously?

I think there are 100...maybe a 1000 guys that would love the chance to be DC at OU but you are gonna need an Asst Head Coach and a LB Coach too. I don't know of very many folks that can hang all three of those hats right now?

It maybe a change that Bob might consider. Who do we get rid of to get all three of those jobs filled? You are gonna need to can more than Venables. It's why I think it's just insanity to think Firing Venables will fix things. We have just as many really serious woes on offense after what I saw last night.

[ObiKaTony]

Mike Shmike. Mike left. You think that in all of college football there is no outstanding DC that would come to OU? Seriously?

Of course not. Mike is a barometer of how good an OU defense should be. Once again, I just want some new blood, and I'd bet the bank that it couldnt' be much worse from what I saw this year...

[StoopTroup]

Of course not. Mike is a barometer of how good an OU defense should be. Once again, I just want some new blood, and I'd bet the bank that it couldnt' be much worse from what I saw this year...

You ought to be a whole lot more worried about new blood on offense. Did you watch the game last night?

[tulsaoilerfan]

I think there are 100...maybe a 1000 guys that would love the chance to be DC at OU but you are gonna need an Asst Head Coach and a LB Coach too. I don't know of very many folks that can hang all three of those hats right now?

It maybe a change that Bob might consider. Who do we get rid of to get all three of those jobs filled? You are gonna need to can more than Venables. It's why I think it's just insanity to think Firing Venables will fix things. We have just as many really serious woes on offense after what I saw last night. Why do we need one that's an assistant head coach? That's more or less a title only anyway and i bet Stoops could find one on the current staff if he wanted to

[ObiKaTony]

Really? Did Mike call them all at Arizona? Seriously my friend. Mike was a Good Assistant but he had a lot of help back then. It's why we were so damn good. You are right...someone needs to get a clue...it's not me though. You didn't read anything about what I said about Strength of schedule so why don't you just stop making a jackass out of yourself. We got plenty of that here already.

I think you said it best when you said Mike was a 'good assistant" I dont' think I have heard anyone say Brent was a "good assistant" and apparently no believes that sentiment enough to hire him for head coaching job.

ST, I don't want hurt your feelings, but I think you are the only one looking like a fool in this thread. Your 5th grader comebacks, and name calling is at best inconsequential... sooner75 you are right, It's pointless...

Thank God Stoops is smart enough to realize change does need to happen, regardless of what ST believes...

[wishbonesooner]

Asst. head coach.. Good Lord. We shouldn't at least consider a shake up because Bob needs an assistant? Does BV make coffee or what? Assistant head coach.

[ObiKaTony]

You ought to be a whole lot more worried about new blood on offense. Did you watch the game last night?

Our offense is ranked 9th in the country. I have seen the offense make adjustments in the 2nd half and in the season. LJ had one of the worst games I've seen a qb have in 4 years. I don't base my opinions off one game, but the season and progession of the system, hence, why I think V should go...

[C&CDean]

Meh.