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soonerbub
12/1/2011, 06:51 PM
What is the angle here? The rojo Chinese obviously allowed this but I can't see why.

Enlighten me you wonks

SanJoaquinSooner
12/1/2011, 08:26 PM
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/hillary-clinton-heads-to-burma/

AlboSooner
12/1/2011, 09:59 PM
Hate her or not, she has done a great job as secretary of state. In certain regards, she's better than old Bill.

Chuck Bao
12/2/2011, 01:04 AM
Hate her or not, she has done a great job as secretary of state. In certain regards, she's better than old Bill.

I agree that Hillary has been a competent SoS.

However, I have very little hope for Burma and its people. It's hard to wipe out 50+ years of military rule and corruption. Burma is an embarrassment, even to its patron, the Chinese, and that is saying something. The article that SJSooner linked sums up my views almost precisely.

It is commendable that the US is at least paying attention and willing to improve relations if the Burmese junta allow further progress towards democracy.

hawaii 5-0
12/2/2011, 01:25 AM
Most (not all) the good people in Burma left a long time ago.

HRC's just trying to piece together the scraps. Lots of Muslims there and we are gonna have to learn to live with them on a worldwide basis.

5-0

Chuck Bao
12/2/2011, 02:01 AM
Most (not all) the good people in Burma left a long time ago.

HRC's just trying to piece together the scraps. Lots of Muslims there and we are gonna have to learn to live with them on a worldwide basis.

5-0

WTF?

Well, where did they go? And when? I think a lot of them passed on. Yeah, the older generation can remember when Burma was a British colony. Some of them speak English better than I. I don't think very many were afforded a British passport.

About 15 years ago, I arranged for a local tour guide when visiting the ancient ruins of Pagan. The old man had a horse and two-wheel wagon to cart tourists to the various sites. He was a university professor before the problems with university students being considered subversive. Very impressive man in discussions about religion, philosophy, history, etc. And he thought he had a chance to move to the US and work in yard landscaping somewhere in Michigan. I don't know if he ever made it to his dream job. I like to think he did.

According to Wikipedia, 89% of Burma's population is Buddhist, 4% Christian, 4% Muslim and 3% other. The so-called "subversives" in Burma are not so much the Muslim, but the Christians, especially the minority Karens who are approximately 50% Christians.

Those are the people who I choose to support in donating medicine and clothes and stuff for refugee camps on the Thai side of the border.

KantoSooner
12/2/2011, 09:29 AM
The Generals are tired of paying what the Chinese demand for support, so they're willing to play the field a bit,

a) in hopes of a better deal with new playmates

and,

b) to let the Chinese know they have options so don't be such dicks in bilateral trade.

We, as would any power, find it useful to peel away a rival's client to the extent we can on the cheap.

I think it's about that simple.

Real reform? I'll believe that if we see another 10 years of progress. A lot of people forget that Burma was, in 1945, one of the most advanced nations in Asia by any measure (literacy, industrial base, GNP, etc etc). Then they got Ne Win. Amazing what a couple generations of central planning and heavy government can do to a country.

NormanPride
12/2/2011, 10:17 AM
Amazing what a couple generations of central planning and heavy government can do to a country.

Yeah. Amazing. How long before we're like that?

KantoSooner
12/2/2011, 10:52 AM
WEll, we've got a long way to go before the idiocy of our government approaches that of the 'Burmese way to socialism'.

Not that we couldn't get there, given the readiness some of our fellow citizens display to give up their rights and freedoms in the name of 'fairness' or 'equality'; but in all seriousness, we're not truly in much danger on that score at the moment.

hawaii 5-0
12/2/2011, 11:34 AM
WTF?

Well, where did they go? And when? I think a lot of them passed on. Yeah, the older generation can remember when Burma was a British colony. Some of them speak English better than I. I don't think very many were afforded a British passport.

About 15 years ago, I arranged for a local tour guide when visiting the ancient ruins of Pagan. The old man had a horse and two-wheel wagon to cart tourists to the various sites. He was a university professor before the problems with university students being considered subversive. Very impressive man in discussions about religion, philosophy, history, etc. And he thought he had a chance to move to the US and work in yard landscaping somewhere in Michigan. I don't know if he ever made it to his dream job. I like to think he did.

According to Wikipedia, 89% of Burma's population is Buddhist, 4% Christian, 4% Muslim and 3% other. The so-called "subversives" in Burma are not so much the Muslim, but the Christians, especially the minority Karens who are approximately 50% Christians.

Those are the people who I choose to support in donating medicine and clothes and stuff for refugee camps on the Thai side of the border.


My bad. I was thinking of Malaysia. I know a Chinese lady who is Burmese. Her family and others left Burma in the 60's to avoid the oppression. They're in Connecticutt.

5-0

MountainOkie
12/2/2011, 01:42 PM
The Generals are tired of paying what the Chinese demand for support, so they're willing to play the field a bit,

a) in hopes of a better deal with new playmates

and,

b) to let the Chinese know they have options so don't be such dicks in bilateral trade.

We, as would any power, find it useful to peel away a rival's client to the extent we can on the cheap.

I think it's about that simple.

Real reform? I'll believe that if we see another 10 years of progress. A lot of people forget that Burma was, in 1945, one of the most advanced nations in Asia by any measure (literacy, industrial base, GNP, etc etc). Then they got Ne Win. Amazing what a couple generations of central planning and heavy government can do to a country.

This would make sense given the new dynamic in the region. There seems to be a full court press going on against China's interests in the region. The U.S. is putting military bases in Australia and has recently upgraded Taiwan's F-16s (per the Wall Street Journal). Japan has negotiated a new naval defensive alliance with the Phillipines, Indonesia and Vietnam.

Things are heating up in the region. It only makes sense to pursue better diplomatic relations with those who have been sitting under China's shadow/thumb for years, like presumably Myanmar.

KantoSooner
12/2/2011, 03:22 PM
The region is always going to be somewhat warm. And, culturally, as well as geographically, the Chinese will always play a massive role. We will stare at the Chinese across the big water and always be a good buddy for everybody else to have lest the Chinese get a bit grabby.
Jokers in the deck:

India: Just how assertive to they get. Question: do we really want Pakistan to settle down? Would it not serve our interests for them to keep India focused West rather than destablizing SE Asia and China's borderlands?

Russia: How weak do they become across China's Northern border? If Russia gets overly weak, the Chinese might decide that Siberia really should belong to them. And Russia, if too weak to defend itself conventionally, might just have to underline its sovereignty with nukes.

sorry, just got a call and have to take my dad to the emergency room. I'll be back...

MountainOkie
12/2/2011, 04:00 PM
sorry, just got a call and have to take my dad to the emergency room. I'll be back...


I hope everything turns out okay.

KantoSooner
12/6/2011, 01:01 PM
It did. He's got congestive heart failure and the doctors are really struggling to balance his meds. This time the potassium was way out of whack.