OU Stat rank vs. Opponents AVG stat rank (since 2000)...

[OU_Sooners75]

This is those that like to talk about the defense or the offense (which is every damn one of us here).


(http://www.soonercode.com/comp-rank/OUcomparison.pdf)OU vs. Opponent Stat Ranks since 2001 (http://www.soonercode.com/comp-rank/OUcomparison.pdf). Link is PDF file (not download)

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Someone pointed out something interesting on another board. The real erosion of our defensive numbers occurred in 2007 when we moved to the no huddle and started giving the other team more plays.

So for example,
in 2003 we were #2 in pass defense -> 218/419 2088 22/11
in 2008 we were #99 in pass defense -> 292/527 3521 19/22

There is a difference of 2 yards/per attempt in our best pass defense of the decade and our worst. They just got a crapton more attempts.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

And one of the more interesting stats is when you throw in our 1999 man press experiment:

174/349 2411 16/17

And for whatever reason, I listed INT/TDs

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So looking at out 93 team (which was mainly zone coverage) we have #22 -> 149/278 1791 17 INT/11 TD
1989 #38 -> 155/307 2039 11 INT/14 TD
.

[OU_Sooners75]

So looking at out 93 team (which was mainly zone coverage) we have #22 -> 149/278 1791 17 INT/11 TD
1989 #38 -> 155/307 2039 11 INT/14 TD
.

Did you even bother to look at the link?

Also, did you even bother trying to comprehend that 1989 was a totally different era in football than what it is today...hell when I played CFB it was totally different than what it is now (mid to late 1990s).

The link here gives a comparison of what OU's offensive stat ranks vs. the average rank of the opponents defense was. And for OU's defense vs. the opponents offense.

Not about yards or TDs or INTs.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Did you even bother to look at the link?

Also, did you even bother trying to comprehend that 1989 was a totally different era in football than what it is today...hell when I played CFB it was totally different than what it is now (mid to late 1990s).

The link here gives a comparison of what OU's offensive stat ranks vs. the average rank of the opponents defense was. And for OU's defense vs. the opponents offense.

Not about yards or TDs or INTs.

Oh, I've looked at those stats quite a bit. I just have a different interpretation of them than you do. Lets talk about the defenses we've played

1999 Man Press
2000-2004 Tampa 2
2005-Current 4-3 Man Under Cover 2

Now, lets talk about what the players were recruited to that played in those defenses and made those rankings

1996-7 -> Bill Young (current Pokey State D)
1998 -> Rex Ryan (46)
1999-2000 -> Man Press
2001-2004 -> Tampa 2
2005-Current -> Current Mess

Adding into the Rankings on your sheet
1997 -> 19
1998 -> 29
1999 -> 46

So what I'm showing you is that a) being tops in the nation in pass defense is an aberration at OU and b) that it seems that the prototypes for our schemes aren't the best fits for the Ds.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So breaking this down, lets think about our secondary vs what they were recruited for|Defense|ranking

1999 PSD/46/MP | Man Press| 46
2000 PSD/46/MP |Tampa 2| 9 (best guess on TGRW/thatcher was recruited as a running back)
2001 PSD/46/MP |Tampa 2| 11 (Only Hawkins from the 2001 class played, he transferred after 2 games)
2002 MP/Tampa 2 | Tampa 2 | 25 (Bassey Experiment)
2003 MP/Tampa 2 | Tampa 2 | 2 (The return of MT at SS (MP))
2004 MP/Tampa 2 | Tampa 2 | 48 (Only MP leftovers are Brandon Shelby and Perkins who was recruited as a WR)
2005 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 56
2006 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 41
2007 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 59 (Last year of DJ Wolfe/Reggie Smith; Corners are Pelini's 2005 class)
2008 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 99
2009 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 20 (Jackson/Franks as corners)
2010 MU | MU | 51
2011 MU | MU | 93

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So given this information, we do spot some trends.

1. Mike Stoops can recruit some Man Press DBs. However, once OU won the NC and he tried to recruit to the Tampa 2 it was a failure. Whether this was because of the new windfall of "talent" or some other reason we can only speculate.
2. As the MP recruits left the system, our pass defense fell off. My personal speculation is the following:

that these kids were second tier MP DBs but were 1st class Tampa 2 DBs because they already had Man to Man cover skills. There is an old adage in basketball that in order to learn to play zone defense, you first have to learn to play man to man. Also, I say "second tier" because we weren't exactly tearing it up on the recruiting trail at this point. We were at best 3rd on the list behind Texas and aTm.
Only one of these MP kids was from Texas (Strait), the rest of them were from Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, and California. Other than the 2 Texas corners that were incredibly physical, our pan out rate for Texas DBs is horrid. We've tended to stay in state because of this.
These kids had something to prove

3. Bobby Jack's recruiting classes in the secondary put kids in the NFL but didn't translate to on the field statistical success. These 2 are kind of contradictory points and point to either a flaw in the defensive scheme or ineffective teaching.

[NormanPride]

Back to the no hudde, do you think that's also a reason why we have more injuries? I mean, at this point we've effectively run something like two more games worth of plays than we did in 2000. We don't have any extra players to absorb those reps, so we are simply grinding our current starters down. And even if you say that the injuries were freak and accidental, running more plays simply increases the opportunity for those things to happen.

[Breadburner]

I wish we would go to a more ball control offense......

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Back to the no hudde, do you think that's also a reason why we have more injuries? I mean, at this point we've effectively run something like two more games worth of plays than we did in 2000. We don't have any extra players to absorb those reps, so we are simply grinding our current starters down. And even if you say that the injuries were freak and accidental, running more plays simply increases the opportunity for those things to happen.

Its a distinct possibility. Allowing opponents to run more plays also means more film on our players

[ObiKaTony]

One of the most absurd threads I have read in a long time. So most of our defensive woes are contributed to the offense? I encourage you to look at our defensive downfall shortly after Mike Stoops left. It is so overwhelming clear that Venebles, while an awesome assistant and recruiter, is overwhelmed by being a coordinator. We have given up record numbers on defense this last month, and we have been below average for years. These numbers are not exclusive to NCAA play, but in big 12 play as well.

If I recall in 2000 our offense was smoking hot and Mike lead us in the top 5 in most categories on defense. The trend con't, in particular 2003 when we were called prior to the k-state game "the best team ever" As a sooner fan I pray we rid ourselves of below average defensive coordinator, and make the appropriate change. Brent has been here for several years and the numbers are going in the wrong direction. Players streaking down the field where a defender is not seen within 25 yards is insane. A delayed blitz 30 yards back leaving WR open 25 yards without a defense is insane. This type of play has been occurring for years, and its at a pinnacle point now. We are not very good on defensive, and to claim its the offense fault, once again is absurd.

We need to make changes...It doesn't get any simpler than that...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

One of the most absurd threads I have read in a long time. So most of our defensive woes are contributed to the offense? I encourage you to look at our defensive downfall shortly after Mike Stoops left. It is so overwhelming clear that Venebles, while an awesome assistant and recruiter, is overwhelmed by being a coordinator. We have given up record numbers on defense this last month, and we have been below average for years. These numbers are not exclusive to NCAA play, but in big 12 play as well.

If I recall in 2000 our offense was smoking hot and Mike lead us in the top 5 in most categories on defense. The trend con't, in particular 2003 when we were called prior to the k-state game "the best team ever" As a sooner fan I pray we rid ourselves of below average defensive coordinator, and make the appropriate change. Brent has been here for several years and the numbers are going in the wrong direction. Players streaking down the field where a defender is not seen within 25 yards is insane. A delayed blitz 30 yards back leaving WR open 25 yards without a defense is insane. This type of play has been occurring for years, and its at a pinnacle point now. We are not very good on defensive, and to claim its the offense fault, once again is absurd.

We need to make changes...It doesn't get any simpler than that...

Look, I've spelled this out in several other threads. Our problems are not as simple as BV is a bad coordinator. So getting rid of him isn't going to magically fix our pass defense, just like getting rid of Mangino didn't magically fix the fact that we had 5 OL at the start of the 2002 season.

The point about the offense inflating the numbers was simple. The no huddle offense is giving our opponents a lot more offensive snaps than it did in 2000-2003. If an opponent has more offensive snaps they are going to have more total offense. It also has the secondary effect of giving future opponents more film on your defensive tendencies. We are also speculating on a tertiary effect which is to expose your players to more injuries thus lessening their effectiveness throughout the year.

[OU_Sooners75]

One of the most absurd threads I have read in a long time. So most of our defensive woes are contributed to the offense? I encourage you to look at our defensive downfall shortly after Mike Stoops left. It is so overwhelming clear that Venebles, while an awesome assistant and recruiter, is overwhelmed by being a coordinator. We have given up record numbers on defense this last month, and we have been below average for years. These numbers are not exclusive to NCAA play, but in big 12 play as well.

If I recall in 2000 our offense was smoking hot and Mike lead us in the top 5 in most categories on defense. The trend con't, in particular 2003 when we were called prior to the k-state game "the best team ever" As a sooner fan I pray we rid ourselves of below average defensive coordinator, and make the appropriate change. Brent has been here for several years and the numbers are going in the wrong direction. Players streaking down the field where a defender is not seen within 25 yards is insane. A delayed blitz 30 yards back leaving WR open 25 yards without a defense is insane. This type of play has been occurring for years, and its at a pinnacle point now. We are not very good on defensive, and to claim its the offense fault, once again is absurd.

We need to make changes...It doesn't get any simpler than that...

One of the most absurd posts I have read in a long time.

It has nothing to do with the offenses. A lot of people have said that the reason the defenses have been good is because of the offenses not being so prolific as they are now.

Well, looking at the stat ranks, they (the offenses and defenses we have faced) are very comparable early to what they have been of late. Yet, our offense seems to be right on par now as early in Stoops era, while our defenses have gotten worse numbers.

I think a lot of it has to do with how much time our defense is on the field. If our offense doesn't get a first down on a series, we run maybe 1 minute off the clock (and that is being very generous). Our offense running 100 plays a game is cool...but that also means our defense is on the field for a lot of plays as well.

So maybe the hurry up offense we run has something to do with why our defensive numbers are going down too?

Not blaming anything on offense...just asking.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So breaking this down, lets think about our secondary vs what they were recruited for|Defense|ranking

1999 PSD/46/MP | Man Press| 46
2000 PSD/46/MP |Tampa 2| 9 (best guess on TGRW/thatcher was recruited as a running back)
2001 PSD/46/MP |Tampa 2| 11 (Only Hawkins from the 2001 class played, he transferred after 2 games)
2002 MP/Tampa 2 | Tampa 2 | 25 (Bassey Experiment)
2003 MP/Tampa 2 | Tampa 2 | 2 (The return of MT at SS (MP))
2004 MP/Tampa 2 | Tampa 2 | 48 (Only MP leftovers are Brandon Shelby and Perkins who was recruited as a WR)
2005 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 56
2006 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 41
2007 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 59 (Last year of DJ Wolfe/Reggie Smith; Corners are Pelini's 2005 class)
2008 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 99
2009 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 20 (Jackson/Franks as corners)
2010 MU | MU | 51
2011 MU | MU | 93

I forgot Everage as the 2nd Texan in that 1999 class.

So the oddity is 2009, what was so special about that defense:

Beal had 11 sacks (38 total for the defense)
Reynolds played the inside run like a demon
Jackson had a great year at corner (4 Ints - 18 for the team)

Heh, it looks like all of our good Ds have something in common <3.0/rush

[ObiKaTony]

Once again, did anyone not see the Baylor game? Did anyone not tune in to the Tech game? Our offense being on the sidline had absolutely nothing to do with players COMPLETLY out of position. Numbers don't lie, and the numbers today and for years has stated we are a below average team on defense.

BTW I do think it is as simple as getting a new defensive coordinator. Anybody want to ask a Florida fan what a new coach does for em? An OU fan when Stoops took over. These kids have obviously not either caught on, bought in, or played to their potential on D. For all those saying "your not a coach..." I say to you, "You don't have to be a professional golfer to realize a duck hook in the woods is a bad shot." We have been duck hooking on defense on a consistent basis.

The common denominator of OU's defensive mediocrity is when Mike left. I'd be willing to bet a great amount of money that if Mike did come back, we would be a much better defense. I'd also being willing to bet that most would agree, and would love to have some new blood in there. The good news is this: After Baylor utterly made us look like cheerleaders on D, we are going to make the changes. Stoops is an awesome coach, and he has shown the capability of making changes for the better, he is about to very soon...

[yermom]

it's helped to have 1st round DTs like Tommie or GK

[ObiKaTony]

True, but we have the personal. Many last year were stating, including Stoops, this was his most talented defense he has ever had. I ask, what the hell happened? I attribute to players just not being coached up. Venebles is way in over his head, or he is tired of being defensive coordinator.

There is a difference between saying, "FIRE VENEBELS" and "OU needs a new defensive coordinator" Either way, OU needs to hire someone else...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Once again, did anyone not see the Baylor game? Did anyone not tune in to the Tech game? Our offense being on the sidline had absolutely nothing to do with players COMPLETLY out of position. Numbers don't lie, and the numbers today and for years has stated we are a below average team on defense.

Biting on fakes does not equal out of position. We bit on fakes in 2001 and 2002 as well. We had teams run up 38 points on that great 2001 D too.


BTW I do think it is as simple as getting a new defensive coordinator. Anybody want to ask a Florida fan what a new coach does for em?

How about Nebraska? How about Michigan? How about USC? How about Miami? How about FSU? The problem is that bringing in a new coach is a crapshoot at best.


The common denominator of OU's defensive mediocrity is when Mike left. I'd be willing to bet a great amount of money that if Mike did come back, we would be a much better defense.

The common denominator in our bad pass defense is that the 1999 recruiting class graduated. We ran the exact same defense in 2004 that we ran in 2003 with the only difference was losing Strait, Michael Thompson, and Everage. That defense was 46 places lower than the 2003 D. Since that jumbled together at the last minute recruiting class has graduated we haven't been able to field a top notch pass defense. A LOT of that was because Mike Stoops basically went 0 for 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003 in his recruiting classes.

I mean the last time I checked Bo Pelini was a decent secondary coach. Did Venables cause him to suck so bad that he dropped 46 places? Or did Bo literally have nothing in the cupboard to work with? Remember that we were hurting so bad for secondary players that we shifted DJ Wolfe and Lendy Holmes from the offensive side of the ball to defense. It was so bad that in 2005, we tweaked the defensive style to use more linebackers because we couldn't put 5 DBs on the field.

So they moved BJW to secondary coach since he'd done such a good job stockpiling talent at DE. That didn't work so the coaches brought in Martinez which doesn't seem to be working either. As I have said BV has many weaknesses that should cause us to replace him (the poor quality of our linebackers being the lead reason), but to say he is solely responsible for our poor pass defense is silly.

What I DO agree with is we need to bring in a pass defense coordinator. One that has proven that he can identify good quality DBs that can play in whatever scheme we adapt. Unfortunately, Mike Stoops doesn't qualify for that and if you bring him back you will have to hire a secondary coach too.

[the_edge]

Once again, did anyone not see the Baylor game? Did anyone not tune in to the Tech game? Our offense being on the sidline had absolutely nothing to do with players COMPLETLY out of position.

Unfortunately, I did watch those games. We SHOULD have scored 60 on Tech and Baylor if our offense is as good as we seem to think they are. Both of their defenses are horrible.

However, the offense is vastly overrated. OU's problems are deeper than just the defensive secondary sucking.

[ObiKaTony]

LOL! this is too funny.

First, biting on fakes does equal players out of position. (remember the 25 yards of green each way for the WR I mentioned.) In very few games that happened under Mike, the difference being his defense was ranked top 5 in the country, and a strong point of the team. This defense is ranked in the bottom half of college football. Mike's D tackled, played, and was more consistent under his watch period. I give credit to Venebles for being able to recruit the talent, the void being the lack of coaching. This brings us full circle to the biting on plays. (which I'm still trying to figure out how biting on a plays doesn't equal a player out of position) Should the players be coached up enough not to bite on plays over and over?

Those griping about the offense are insane. I read that we should have scored 60 to win?! I guess that’s what happens when your d gives up 35 plus a game. We have been a 2nd half team on O, which means they are getting coached up. We have been creative (bell dozer) and the offense scores points. In our 2 losses we scored enough to win, we just gave up a ton of yards and points to lose. If any part of the team should be consistent, what is usually in inherent in football that is consistent, its defense and special teams. Once again, the numbers don't lie. Mike Stoops coached a top 5 defense, and Coach V has coached us near the bottom... It’s not personal argument, we just suck, and it’s time for a change…

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

LOL! this is too funny.

First, biting on fakes does equal players out of position. (remember the 25 yards of green each way for the WR I mentioned.) In very few games that happened under Mike, the difference being his defense was ranked top 5 in the country, and a strong point of the team. This defense is ranked in the bottom half of college football. Mike's D tackled, played, and was more consistent under his watch period. I give credit to Venebles for being able to recruit the talent, the void being the lack of coaching. This brings us full circle to the biting on plays. (which I'm still trying to figure out how biting on a plays doesn't equal a player out of position) Should the players be coached up enough not to bite on plays over and over?

Those griping about the offense are insane. I read that we should have scored 60 to win?! I guess that’s what happens when your d gives up 35 plus a game. We have been a 2nd half team on O, which means they are getting coached up. We have been creative (bell dozer) and the offense scores points. In our 2 losses we scored enough to win, we just gave up a ton of yards and points to lose. If any part of the team should be consistent, what is usually in inherent in football that is consistent, its defense and special teams. Once again, the numbers don't lie. Mike Stoops coached a top 5 defense, and Coach V has coached us near the bottom... It’s not personal argument, we just suck, and it’s time for a change…

A) Brent Venables doesn't coach defensive backs. He coaches Linebackers. Their technique and training doesn't come from him, it comes from their position coach.
B) When we say the words "the DB is out of position", we refer to an alignment issue. This is the realm of the DC. Biting on a fake is an active misread of the play. This is once again the domain of the position coach who is teaching the DBs how to diagnose the play.
C) The 85 man rule has pretty much doomed all teams to inconsistency somewhere. If you have weak recruiting classes at a position (and we've had several lately at DT, LB, and a decade worth at DB) you are going to be weak there until 2-3 years later you can shore up the talent evaluation.

So I'm not sure if any of this will ever crack your "I'm right, You're wrong" argument style, but that is where we are.

[NormanPride]

But that's wrong.

[ObiKaTony]

1) Venebles is the defensive coordinator which means he will and should receive the blame when the defense consistently give ups 400 yards a game. Moreover, Stoops blame will inevitable come if he doesn’t' rid himself of the weak link because he is HEAD coach.

2) This argument is not I'm right your wrong, you are "wrong" in that assumption. This argument is whether or not venebles should go for whatever reason you choose (there are plenty) most would agree with my conclusions as you will see very soon at the end of the season.

3) Apparently Bob Stoops disagrees with your assumption that he has had weak recruiting classes. Once again, he has stated this is his "best class"

4) Most people give excuses for Venebles, some are legitimate some are not, either way he is gone at the end of the season. Most reasonable fans agree that the reality is our defense is not good. So if I say he can't coach, and you say (disagreeing with stoops) he can't recruit, the result is the same, He is gone.

Thanks for playing...

[TheUnnamedSooner]

oops.

[TheUnnamedSooner]

Someone pointed out something interesting on another board. The real erosion of our defensive numbers occurred in 2007 when we moved to the no huddle and started giving the other team more plays.

So for example,
in 2003 we were #2 in pass defense -> 218/419 2088 22/11
in 2008 we were #99 in pass defense -> 292/527 3521 19/22

There is a difference of 2 yards/per attempt in our best pass defense of the decade and our worst. They just got a crapton more attempts.

So, since there is a crapton more attempts, shouldn't we expect to see more int's.. not fewer?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

1) Venebles is the defensive coordinator which means he will and should receive the blame when the defense consistently give ups 400 yards a game. Moreover, Stoops blame will inevitable come if he doesn’t' rid himself of the weak link because he is HEAD coach.

2) This argument is not I'm right your wrong, you are "wrong" in that assumption. This argument is whether or not venebles should go for whatever reason you choose (there are plenty) most would agree with my conclusions as you will see very soon at the end of the season.

3) Apparently Bob Stoops disagrees with your assumption that he has had weak recruiting classes. Once again, he has stated this is his "best class"

4) Most people give excuses for Venebles, some are legitimate some are not, either way he is gone at the end of the season. Most reasonable fans agree that the reality is our defense is not good. So if I say he can't coach, and you say (disagreeing with stoops) he can't recruit, the result is the same, He is gone.

Thanks for playing...

1) This is the pro fan mentality of thinking. It hasn't applied under Stoops. He hasn't gotten rid of people for their inability to coordinate, he's gotten rid of people for their inability to get good players. Mangino, Long, Wilson, Sumlin were all guys that were told to move on because of player issues, not because of coordinator issues (I have no idea if he told Mike to move on but he'd certainly qualify here). If Venables is gone at the end of the season, it will be because of his failures to recruit linebackers.

2) This is a strawman argument. You refuse to even look at any other arguments and then hide behind some fictional masses that support you. I'm presenting you with arguments against your premise that you fail to refute, yet you still cling to "well it doesn't matter what I say, my conclusion will be proven".

3) A long time ago, we on this board learned the value of not paying attention to Rivals/Hale/Stoops hyping of his classes. As a matter of a fact, it started with a guy named Michael Hawkins "the best corner recruit I've ever seen in my life" according to one Mike Stoops. He played 2 games and quit. In the Martinez needs to be fired thread I went through every single DB recruit we've ever had here. Their results and somewhat the corresponding NFL grades assigned to them prove that these classes were nothing like they were hyped to be. Now if these kids are just not that good by the time they graduate, that is now the responsibility of the DC and not the position coach who recruited/coached them? We laugh at Texas and their player development but honestly we are horrid in secondary development.

4) Based on history, I don't see it playing out that way. Venables is doing a **** poor job of evaluating linebacker talent, but he does a GREAT job of landing kids for other positions that ARE doing a better job on talent evaluation. This isn't a new phenomenon, we have a laundry list of misses at linebacker for the last decade but the ones we hit on were all special. What I do see them doing is bringing in a pass defense coordinator to help him. We have 2 sacraficial lambs right now where we can bring people in -> Patton and Martinez -> so my bet is Mike Stoops will take one and we'll hopefully get a different defensive backs coach that can evaluate DBs.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So, since there is a crapton more attempts, shouldn't we expect to see more int's.. not fewer?

That was why I was pointing out the defenses that guys were recruited too. The kids who were recruited for their man to man skills dominated in a zone. The kids who were recruited for their zone skills struggle in coverage at the college level (probably because they never learned how to play man to man).

[starclassic tama]

1) This is the pro fan mentality of thinking. It hasn't applied under Stoops. He hasn't gotten rid of people for their inability to coordinate, he's gotten rid of people for their inability to get good players. Mangino, Long, Wilson, Sumlin were all guys that were told to move on because of player issues, not because of coordinator issues (I have no idea if he told Mike to move on but he'd certainly qualify here). If Venables is gone at the end of the season, it will be because of his failures to recruit linebackers.

interesting. i wasn't aware he told any of those guys to move on. i was under the impression they all took head coaching jobs on their own accord...

[TUSooner]

That was why I was pointing out the defenses that guys were recruited too. The kids who were recruited for their man to man skills dominated in a zone. The kids who were recruited for their zone skills struggle in coverage at the college level (probably because they never learned how to play man to man).I won't dare argue Xs & Os or coaching techniques with you, but this biz about recruiting guys to play "man" vs recruiting guys to play "zone" sounds way too fine & fancy. It's like preformed and prepackaged excuse-making. What about recruiting good, fast, tough, determined athletes and then coaching them into the positions we need? Or building a defense that enhances the strengths of our players? You seem just a tad too eager to explain away the end result of all this coaching and recuiting, which is a defense that can't defend. At some point, the top guy (BV) has to take full responsibility for what happens on the field, and quit making or accepting excuses. We've been having a crispy D for awhile, it seems, and yet it's never BV's fault! How so?!

[ObiKaTony]

Ill directly argue your points in order...

1) The coaches you mentioned ALL got jobs at a higher level. Unfortunately, Venebles has been interviewed for other jobs and everyone has taken another candidate. Perhaps they see the same things I see, and you don't.

2) A straw man argument? I have not twisted any of your words, in fact I have used your own words to prove my points. (you keep telling me he can't recruit, so why on earth would you want him to stay or contribute to the idea he has done an above average job!)

3) I agree with the rivals, scouts, and espn being off the mark most of the time, heck, wouldn’t that make Texas champs every year? That is precisely why I listen to the coaches, and as Stoops sad last year, "Defense if very talented" and this year "The best talent I have had" I take him at his word. If that is the case, by common sense default you must rid yourself of the weakest link.

4) We will wait and see. However, there are many including myself that believe Venebles has had his chance here to move on to another school (failed in interview process) or make his mark here in a positive way. I've seen the stats, play, and talent from this team and nothing tells me he should stay, and I assume Stoops will "let him go" in a classy manner. Stoops is a class act, and he treats his people good, but the program is suffering. As head coach he must let him go, or more pressure will come to him as it should

[ObiKaTony]

I guess one has to ask the question. IF Stoops got rid of Venebles could the defense get much worse? Seriously, being ranked 90th something in most categories I don't see how we can fall off the map much further.

So I apologize if my arguments sound so cut and dry, but as I stated before most people believe this argument is well over, and the only question left is who is next.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I won't dare argue Xs & Os or coaching techniques with you, but this biz about recruiting guys to play "man" vs recruiting guys to play "zone" sounds way too fine & fancy. It's like preformed and prepackaged excuse-making. What about recruiting good, fast, tough, determined athletes and then coaching them into the positions we need? Or building a defense that enhances the strengths of our players?

You are a smart guy like most of the posters on this board. How many hours do you think it would take to "coach someone up" to play your defense if they were athletic but had never played in a formal system? Now what if I told you you were allowed 45 hours to do it. Do you think you could do it? Now I'm going to further complicate this by saying that those 45 hours have to be split between 18 players that you are responsible for all with different weaknesses that each need "coaching". Now I'm going to further complicate it by having your best player leave early and his backup is 25-30 hours worth of individual coaching away from being serviceable. That is the position we've been in for the last 1/2 a decade.

And I'm not giving these guys a pass for their product on the field, I'm skewering the root cause of the problems on the field. Instead of every class having a less athletic kid that is a gym rat and can help teach others their keys (ala matt mccoy) we are filling every class with athletes that always have to be taught by coaches. This causes us to get further and further behind the curve because those coaches CAN NOT talk to the players (outside of those 45 hours) between the bowl game and the start of two a days.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Ill directly argue your points in order...

1) The coaches you mentioned ALL got jobs at a higher level. Unfortunately, Venebles has been interviewed for other jobs and everyone has taken another candidate. Perhaps they see the same things I see, and you don't.

2) A straw man argument? I have not twisted any of your words, in fact I have used your own words to prove my points. (you keep telling me he can't recruit, so why on earth would you want him to stay or contribute to the idea he has done an above average job!)

3) I agree with the rivals, scouts, and espn being off the mark most of the time, heck, wouldn’t that make Texas champs every year? That is precisely why I listen to the coaches, and as Stoops sad last year, "Defense if very talented" and this year "The best talent I have had" I take him at his word. If that is the case, by common sense default you must rid yourself of the weakest link.

4) We will wait and see. However, there are many including myself that believe Venebles has had his chance here to move on to another school (failed in interview process) or make his mark here in a positive way. I've seen the stats, play, and talent from this team and nothing tells me he should stay, and I assume Stoops will "let him go" in a classy manner. Stoops is a class act, and he treats his people good, but the program is suffering. As head coach he must let him go, or more pressure will come to him as it should

You act as if Brent is the only coach this has ever happened too. Norm Chow is considered one of the best OCs in the business, the same thing happens to him. Some people can't interview worth a crap. Not to mention the head coach has to be someone who can be friendly with the boosters, just look at OU's history with coaches who didn't (Sampson, Gibbs).

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I guess one has to ask the question. IF Stoops got rid of Venebles could the defense get much worse? Seriously, being ranked 90th something in most categories I don't see how we can fall off the map much further.

So I apologize if my arguments sound so cut and dry, but as I stated before most people believe this argument is well over, and the only question left is who is next.

Do you remember when Stoops was asked if he was going to keep Rex Ryan? Basically said his D sucked. Then his first year, our D was statistically worse than Ryan's D. aTm has fired multiple dc's and yet their pass defense keeps getting worse. Replacing a coach is a crapshoot, you can get a gem or you can set yourself back 1/2 a decade.

[ObiKaTony]

Now if I'm going to directly answer your questions and not "ignore them" as you say I do, then I would like the same extension of courtesy by you not taking my words out of context.

I never said that Venebles was the only coach interviewees passed by; I just said that interviewees passed him by. While Chow and Venebels both share not getting hired in the interview process, Chow at least had statistical numbers that favored him. I can't say the same for Venebels...

[TUSooner]

You are a smart guy like most of the posters on this board. How many hours do you think it would take to "coach someone up" to play your defense if they were athletic but had never played in a formal system? Now what if I told you you were allowed 45 hours to do it. Do you think you could do it? Now I'm going to further complicate this by saying that those 45 hours have to be split between 18 players that you are responsible for all with different weaknesses that each need "coaching". Now I'm going to further complicate it by having your best player leave early and his backup is 25-30 hours worth of individual coaching away from being serviceable. That is the position we've been in for the last 1/2 a decade.

And I'm not giving these guys a pass for their product on the field, I'm skewering the root cause of the problems on the field. Instead of every class having a less athletic kid that is a gym rat and can help teach others their keys (ala matt mccoy) we are filling every class with athletes that always have to be taught by coaches. This causes us to get further and further behind the curve because those coaches CAN NOT talk to the players (outside of those 45 hours) between the bowl game and the start of two a days.
Of course I don't know, but if I were getting paid several hundreds of thousands of dollars to get it done, I think I'd try pretty hard to figure it out. I'm pretty sure BV has a higher IQ than Les Miles, but LSU manages to get some studs who can "git 'er done." Meanwhile, we have press conferences explaining why we ain't got 'er done. If you say Les recruits studs, I say fine; we should too.
But that's niggling, at this point. I accept the fact that our offense and defense go hand in hand. I don't think I've ever seen a pass-happy O in college or pros that also had a lock down D.

[ObiKaTony]

So let me ask you something. Do you want Venebles to stay? Have you not seen enough for over 6-7 years? Have you not seen our offense carry this team on its back time and time again?

If the answer yes, then I question or "expertise" on the game, and I would suggest an email or a phone call to the real experts that didnt' hire him as their head coach.

Again, Venebles I'm sure is a nice guy, but he is outta here come next season. Stoops knows it, I know, and deep down jkm you know it too

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So let me ask you something. Do you want Venebles to stay? Have you not seen enough for over 6-7 years? Have you not seen our offense carry this team on its back time and time again?

If the answer yes, then I question or "expertise" on the game, and I would suggest an email or a phone call to the real experts that didnt' hire him as their head coach.

Again, Venebles I'm sure is a nice guy, but he is outta here come next season. Stoops knows it, I know, and deep down jkm you know it too

I'm ambivalent if he stays or goes. Why? Because I have showed in exquisite screen shot detail dozens of plays where we got gouged over the last 2 years and in every single one of them we were in the right defense with the right defensive call being made. It came down to our players making a play on their players and our players failing. And most of the time, they fail because of lack of effort. If that is on the coordinator then so be it. What I can fault Brent Venables for is the heinous condition of our linebackers. If there is a blocker in the same area code, they will be neutralized. But is he also responsible for coaching in the secondary? Recruiting at DT? No. As a coordinator, the guy is technically perfect yet it doesn't translate onto the field. To be honest, it reminds me of Norm Chow at UCLA. The guy does everything right and it still fails. My worry is that the entitlement that we see right now isn't going to be cracked by replacing the DC. Its only going to be cracked when we infuse some Corey Heineckes and Roger Stefans into the team, guys who beat athletic talent with "want to" and keep the athletic talent on their toes.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Of course I don't know, but if I were getting paid several hundreds of thousands of dollars to get it done, I think I'd try pretty hard to figure it out. I'm pretty sure BV has a higher IQ than Les Miles, but LSU manages to get some studs who can "git 'er done." Meanwhile, we have press conferences explaining why we ain't got 'er done. If you say Les recruits studs, I say fine; we should too.
But that's niggling, at this point. I accept the fact that our offense and defense go hand in hand. I don't think I've ever seen a pass-happy O in college or pros that also had a lock down D.

You can NOT use a school like LSU or Texas to make your point. Those schools have access to a bigger pool of higher calibre athletes than we do. If your secondary reaches a certain bar in athleticism you just man them up and you'll be fine. This is also where all of their oversigning hijinks come in.

[ObiKaTony]

Let us hope the coaches are not as ambivalent as you are. I think we are arguing the same thesis, but using different points. I believe you are just tying to be politically correct or "above the argument' by being ambivalent. Just admit that Venebles is a nice guy, but not a very good d coordinator, and lets be done with it. You keep nudging ever so close to my side (80%) with every post. Just say Venebels needs to go and be done with it…

[ObiKaTony]

BTW I have an exquisite screen shot of why Venebles should leave too. It was Baylor WR's racing down the field open for months, and the stats that have us ranked near the bottom in the defensive categories in all of college football.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Let us hope the coaches are not as ambivalent as you are. I think we are arguing the same thesis, but using different points. I believe you are just tying to be politically correct or "above the argument' by being ambivalent. Just admit that Venebles is a nice guy, but not a very good d coordinator, and lets be done with it. You keep nudging ever so close to my side (80%) with every post. Just say Venebels needs to go and be done with it…

Actually I haven't changed one bit on this. I think it would be a bad idea to fire the guy. I DO think he needs help with someone who can take over the pass D. I also think he needs to pull his head out with regard to the way our LBs play.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

BTW I have an exquisite screen shot of why Venebles should leave too. It was Baylor WR's racing down the field open for months, and the stats that have us ranked near the bottom in the defensive categories in all of college football.

Once again, I'm failing to see why Martinez's failures have been assigned to BV. That one is on Stoops for the bad hire.

[TUSooner]

You can NOT use a school like LSU or Texas to make your point. Those schools have access to a bigger pool of higher calibre athletes than we do. If your secondary reaches a certain bar in athleticism you just man them up and you'll be fine. This is also where all of their oversigning hijinks come in.

Gosh. You make it look pretty bleak - we can't recruit defensive players, and changing coaches won't help. Oh, dear!

Surely there's something to hope for.

:wink: :biggrin:

[kevpks]

OU has had plenty of good secondary players. Numerous secondary players from OU under Stoops have put in significant time on NFL rosters: Roy, Poole, Derrick Strait, Perkins, Reggie Smith, Brian Jackson, Q Carter. Heck even Eric Bassey hung on the Rams practice squad and was called up a few times. Fleming, Hurst, and Jefferson are likely to get drafted. There is no fundamental recruiting barrier keeping us from getting good defenders. I don't know what the problem is, but I contend it's not players.

[ObiKaTony]

Tulsa, his entire argument blows up if he admits Venebles needs to go. He will blame it on recruiting (partly venebles fault) Martinez (partly venebles fault) the defensive breakdowns/ biting on plays (partly venebles fault) but he will not say that Venebles needs to go. I was accused of the argumentative style of "I'm right you are wrong" then JKM's is "I refuse to give a concrete answer"

[ObiKaTony]

So true kev. Listen, don't take kev's word for it, just listen to Stoops. So once again, if Stoops is getting the recruits, then what the heck is the problem. Common sense leads to the conclusion that it is COACHING!!!. Since Venebles is in charge of the defense and Stoops aint going anywhere (as he shouldn't) then there is only ONE logical choice. JKM, this argument is RIP'd

[StoopTroup]

We have always done things differently at OU and we have for years pissed off every fexaz Team we can by beating them with a good number of fexas recruits.

Bama and LSU get their recruits via the way Miles and Saban does and since they are both SEC powerhouses they are going to get some kids that grew up dreaming of playing in the SEC.

If there is anything that we took a huge risk in doing a few years ago is that we increased the size of the Big 8 to 12 and kids that grew up wanting to play in the SWC were then looking at playing in the Big XII.

Now....if you wanted to play for a Team that was going to win a Big XII Championship and you are a big Stat guy that likes to point out how bad Brent Venables is....what Team other than OU would you go too if you dreamed of playing for a Big XII Championship and a shot at a National Title? Baylor? I think not.

Everyone here knows it is OU. It's been OU more than any other Team in the Big XII. Even as much as oSu has improved...they still have the same troubles that most every Team in the Big XII has and that is that it is difficult to not only win your Conference Undefeated....it's even more difficult to win all of your games. That's true for Bama and until this year is over and LSU has run the gambit....it is true for them as well. Nobody would have given Auburn a Chance at the beginning of the year last year. They had a Vince Young year. It happens.

Some folks thought that TCU should have been Nat'l Champs. Let's be serious and take a look at how much they changed over one year. My God....they may have had a good year but we all know that there was at least ten other teams that they couldn't have beat.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Gosh. You make it look pretty bleak - we can't recruit defensive players, and changing coaches won't help. Oh, dear!

Surely there's something to hope for.

:wink: :biggrin:

When you historically think about the DB talent that OU sends to the pros, its mostly safeties. We've had 46 DBs all time drafted and of those 12 were cornerbacks. This is exact opposite with Texas who has had almost the exact same number drafted, but its mainly corners.

Since 1990 (arbitrary based on my memory) we've had Franks, Perkins, Strait, Woolfolk, Darius Johnson. At Safety, we've had Nelson, Carter, Harris, Smith, Pool, Nicholson, TGRW, Bartee, Davis, Ray, Belser. (Strange that our best defenses came when we had 6 NFL draft picks in the secondary at the same time.)


Since 1990 aTm has had 16 guys (most were in the early 90s), however they've only had 1 since the 2000 recruiting class (ie when we supplanted them as #2 in recruiting Texas) -> Pugh

Since 1990 Texas has had 18 guys of which 12 have been since Mack started coaching. CBs -> (Williams, Brown, Ross, Brown, Griffin, Vasher, Babers, Jammer) S-> (Brown, Thomas, Griffin, Huff). Notice that A) they all have the same last names (WTF?) and B) that they have had way more corners than we have and they are more spread out instead of heavily tilted towards the first of the decade.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

OU has had plenty of good secondary players. Numerous secondary players from OU under Stoops have put in significant time on NFL rosters: Roy, Poole, Derrick Strait, Perkins, Reggie Smith, Brian Jackson, Q Carter. Heck even Eric Bassey hung on the Rams practice squad and was called up a few times. Fleming, Hurst, and Jefferson are likely to get drafted. There is no fundamental recruiting barrier keeping us from getting good defenders. I don't know what the problem is, but I contend it's not players.

kev, notice that most of these guys are safeties, not corners. This is further complicated by the fact that a lot of these guys were at OU during the same period and then we went a huge span without anyone being drafted. Over 1/2 the guys you list were drafted almost a decade ago.

[ObiKaTony]

I think those comparing OU to Bama, LSU, UF, and other SEC schools is a folly venture. Each year a special team arises or player (newton, young, etc) so it lends itself to championship year. That being said, the results are in and they are totally clear. Once again, the argument is not FIRE VENEBLES, the argument is Venebles needs to go because the results on the field are not up to Oklahoma standards. There could be several reasons: Coaching, scheme, or even a sense of a state system. I liken it to a good teacher that has been at a school for a period of time who has burned out her methods and students. After watching these last couple seasons, and taking in all the stats, myself and many others are correct in saying he needs to go. That doesn't make us "people who don't know football" that is us making an informed conclusion based on overwhelming facts that suggest that conclusion...

He is gone next year either way...

[StoopTroup]

OU has had plenty of good secondary players. Numerous secondary players from OU under Stoops have put in significant time on NFL rosters: Roy, Poole, Derrick Strait, Perkins, Reggie Smith, Brian Jackson, Q Carter. Heck even Eric Bassey hung on the Rams practice squad and was called up a few times. Fleming, Hurst, and Jefferson are likely to get drafted. There is no fundamental recruiting barrier keeping us from getting good defenders. I don't know what the problem is, but I contend it's not players.

As I went through the Swtizer Center today I stopped at the display of OU NFL Players that was on the Wall for the years Bob has been Coach. They have other time periods up there too but we really have something special going on here and firing someone probably isn't the answer. Helping Coaches work together better when they need to make all the right calls and have the right guys in is probably going to be the best way to improve. Firing everyone is something you do if you don't have injuries and the Coaches can't get them to play for them. I do not believe that's happened to Brent other than maybe the Travis Lewis self promotion tour that was going on and I think that Brent has done everything he could to help keep Travis Grounded yet help promote him so he can possibly have a career in the NFL. I wish Travis well.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Tulsa, his entire argument blows up if he admits Venebles needs to go. He will blame it on recruiting (partly venebles fault) Martinez (partly venebles fault) the defensive breakdowns/ biting on plays (partly venebles fault) but he will not say that Venebles needs to go. I was accused of the argumentative style of "I'm right you are wrong" then JKM's is "I refuse to give a concrete answer"

None of my arguments blow up if I say that X coach needs to go. This argument is similar to those people who wanted to fire Switzer in 84 or Osborne in 79. WE CAN NEVER WIN X WITH X COACH1!!. Yet, patience paid off and those guys did win some national titles. My point is that Venables has proven enough schematically that if we get the pieces we can achieve a dominant defense again. This is unlike Mangino who proved over his 3 years that he had to recruit 15 linemen per year to end up with 2. Or Chuck Long who went 5 years without a single QB sticking (unless you count the one that he pulled back from WR).

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

As I went through the Swtizer Center today I stopped at the display of OU NFL Players that was on the Wall for the years Bob has been Coach. They have other time periods up there too but we really have something special going on here and firing someone probably isn't the answer. Helping Coaches work together better when they need to make all the right calls and have the right guys in is probably going to be the best way to improve. Firing everyone is something you do if you don't have injuries and the Coaches can't get them to play for them. I do not believe that's happened to Brent other than maybe the Travis Lewis self promotion tour that was going on and I think that Brent has done everything he could to help keep Travis Grounded yet help promote him so he can possibly have a career in the NFL. I wish Travis well.

Travis was a lot like Malcolm Kelly, they just couldn't handle success. Kevin Sumlin didn't help matters either by letting him act like an 80's Miami WR out on the field either. However, as much as they've regressed, I don't think they hold a candle to the regression that Jeff Fuller has done at aTm this year.

[ObiKaTony]

Troup I like the message, but I couldn't disagree more. Those awards are because of great coaching decisions along with great athletes. Those decisions did involve hiring and firing coaches. Once again, I don’t' believe firing Venebles could make the defense any worse than it already is. Being that we are on the bottom tier of the defensive stat category, the previous statement is a fact not an opinion. With that knowledge I don't see how Stoops could keep him on his staff next year.

[kevpks]

kev, notice that most of these guys are safeties, not corners. This is further complicated by the fact that a lot of these guys were at OU during the same period and then we went a huge span without anyone being drafted. Over 1/2 the guys you list were drafted almost a decade ago.

Safeties: Roy, Poole, Carter
Corners: The rest of them, although I know Reggie played safety and corner here.

I don't really get what you're saying there. Heck, right now corners are clearly better than safeties at OU. Reggie Smith, Jackson, and Q Carter are all recent guys. My point was that we have consistently had NFL quality secondary players at OU and I don't see some huge talent drop-off for any extended period in Stoops' tenure. We haven't had award winners like Straight and Williams but we've had some all-conference, all-American level talent back there.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

When you historically think about the DB talent that OU sends to the pros, its mostly safeties. We've had 46 DBs all time drafted and of those 12 were cornerbacks. This is exact opposite with Texas who has had almost the exact same number drafted, but its mainly corners.

Since 1990 (arbitrary based on my memory) we've had Franks, Perkins, Strait, Woolfolk, Darius Johnson. At Safety, we've had Nelson, Carter, Harris, Smith, Pool, Nicholson, TGRW, Bartee, Davis, Ray, Belser. (Strange that our best defenses came when we had 6 NFL draft picks in the secondary at the same time.)


Since 1990 aTm has had 16 guys (most were in the early 90s), however they've only had 1 since the 2000 recruiting class (ie when we supplanted them as #2 in recruiting Texas) -> Pugh

Since 1990 Texas has had 18 guys of which 12 have been since Mack started coaching. CBs -> (Williams, Brown, Ross, Brown, Griffin, Vasher, Babers, Jammer) S-> (Brown, Thomas, Griffin, Huff). Notice that A) they all have the same last names (WTF?) and B) that they have had way more corners than we have and they are more spread out instead of heavily tilted towards the first of the decade.

So adding to this, I went back and looked at the team that I'd suspect has been getting the eval recruits (the straits/everages etc) of the world.

TCU has 8 defensive guys in the draft in the last 4 years -> 4 linebackers, 3 safeties, 1 corner

[ObiKaTony]

JKM you lost his argument not because you are not smart or because you are bad debater. You lost because your arguing what simply is not true. Heck, even your own facts get in the way of your argument (remember the recruiting part of it) It's impossible to argue that Venebles should stay, the production is simply not on the field. It's not like he has been here for a year or 2, he has been ever for over half a decade, and the defense is GETTING WORSE!!!

I have read a good amount of post and alot of rash posts have come on screaming FIRE VENEBLES after a bad loss. I have taken in the numbers, looked at the players, read and heard what stoops has said and I don't believe anyone can make a substantive argument for this man to be defensive coordinator at OU the numbers are simply not there. For all those who hesitate, it doesn't make you a bad person to point out obvious truths. Venebels needs to GO! He will be fine, he is a millionaire

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Safeties: Roy, Poole, Carter
Corners: The rest of them, although I know Reggie played safety and corner here.

I don't really get what you're saying there. Heck, right now corners are clearly better than safeties at OU. Reggie Smith, Jackson, and Q Carter are all recent guys. My point was that we have consistently had NFL quality secondary players at OU and I don't see some huge talent drop-off for any extended period in Stoops' tenure. We haven't had award winners like Straight and Williams but we've had some all-conference, all-American level talent back there.

Because statistics-wise, our best seasons have been when ALL 4 of the secondary have been good. Otherwise, it leaves a huge area of the field to exploit. Think about 2000-2003, 2 great corners every year and 2 good safeties outside of 2002 (everage hurt, bassey ineffective). In 2004, we had 1 great corner and 1 great safety. We didn't see this again until 2009. And I assure you, that any year we had DJ Wolfe or Eric Bassey in the secondary, long time posters will assure you we weren't very good that year.

1999 PSD/46/MP | Man Press| 46
2000 PSD/46/MP |Tampa 2| 9 (best guess on TGRW/thatcher was recruited as a running back)
2001 PSD/46/MP |Tampa 2| 11 (Only Hawkins from the 2001 class played, he transferred after 2 games)
2002 MP/Tampa 2 | Tampa 2 | 25 (Bassey Experiment)
2003 MP/Tampa 2 | Tampa 2 | 2 (The return of MT at SS (MP))
2004 MP/Tampa 2 | Tampa 2 | 48 (Only MP leftovers are Brandon Shelby and Perkins who was recruited as a WR)
2005 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 56
2006 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 41
2007 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 59 (Last year of DJ Wolfe/Reggie Smith; Corners are Pelini's 2005 class)
2008 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 99
2009 Tampa 2/MU | MU | 20 (Jackson/Franks as corners)
2010 MU | MU | 51
2011 MU | MU | 93

[kevpks]

So adding to this, I went back and looked at the team that I'd suspect has been getting the eval recruits (the straits/everages etc) of the world.

TCU has 8 defensive guys in the draft in the last 4 years -> 4 linebackers, 3 safeties, 1 corner

I'm not trying to be rude here but what is your point? Meaning, to what do you attribute the declining ability to play pass defense at OU? Personally, I don't think we are massively screwing up recruiting or talent evaluation. I've seen this guys (like Javon Harris) make enough stellar plays to know they have ability. I've seen them get beat enough to know something is wrong.

Edit: Trust me, I remember the Bassey and DJ Wolfe secondaries. My point about Bassey was that he had enough ability to make a pro roster, which surprised me.

[CU Sooner]

Last year venables was a genius for breaking out the 50. This year the D had a great game at FSU, destroyed uterus, shuts a&m down until its over, there are many great games he has had. But he has a lot of bad games too. So what is the common denominator as you all like to say? 18-20 year old kids who are not patient and want to make the big play everytime. JKM is right in that the position coach is responsible for most of the sencondary break downs. Oki if you want to look at your recording and see who Stoops is yelling at other than Harris it is Martinez on those busts at waco. The scheme has been there it just has not been executed comsistently. Venables has the same problem with lb's as lewis is continually trying to make a big play in the backfield and shooting the wrong gaps which lead to long runs. I do not think the coordinating is the problem as much as consistency from the players.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

JKM you lost his argument not because you are not smart or because you are bad debater. You lost because your arguing what simply is not true. Heck, even your own facts get in the way of your argument (remember the recruiting part of it) It's impossible to argue that Venebles should stay, the production is simply not on the field. It's not like he has been here for a year or 2, he has been ever for over half a decade, and the defense is GETTING WORSE!!!

I have read a good amount of post and alot of rash posts have come on screaming FIRE VENEBLES after a bad loss. I have taken in the numbers, looked at the players, read and heard what stoops has said and I don't believe anyone can make a substantive argument for this man to be defensive coordinator at OU the numbers are simply not there. For all those who hesitate, it doesn't make you a bad person to point out obvious truths. Venebels needs to GO! He will be fine, he is a millionaire

Um, I said he was a Rob Deere evaluator of linebacker talent (lots of whiffs and a few home runs). I didn't say he was completely a bad recruiter. He is the one that closes on all the high profile Texas guys and he wins his share of battles. That in itself has value to this team, without him, guys like Peterson, etc don't come here.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I'm not trying to be rude here but what is your point? Meaning, to what do you attribute the declining ability to play pass defense at OU? Personally, I don't think we are massively screwing up recruiting or talent evaluation. I've seen this guys (like Javon Harris) make enough stellar plays to know they have ability. I've seen them get beat enough to know something is wrong.

Edit: Trust me, I remember the Bassey and DJ Wolfe secondaries. My point about Bassey was that he had enough ability to make a pro roster, which surprised me.

The problem with Harris is not talent, its that his natural fit is a position occupied by another player -> Jefferson. It's like having 3 great running backs and moving one to WR because you want to get him on the field. All it does is make both positions weaker. Thus what you are seeing is a recruiting failure to fit the scheme compounded by us trying to patch it up with a player who isn't a natural at the position.

The TCU argument is because OU's best players in the decades have been unearthed gems (Strait, Perkins, Clayton, etc). What I suspected is that someone was grabbing the guys that we had gotten earlier in the decade. TCU was the natural choice.

[ObiKaTony]

JKM, you said that if he doesn’t recruit better line backers he should go...

CU sooner he has some good games, AS HE SHOULD AT OU. However, the bad and average games have left us statically in the cellar with superior talent. Follow logic with steps 1, 2, 3, and you will find the answer.

Those kids were lost on that field vs Baylor. The looks on their faces when the coaches were screaming were not ones of disdain but confusion. As an OU fan, I expect more and I won't apologize for it. The attitude of complacency will not win championships, excellence does, and the numbers suggest otherwise...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I'm not trying to be rude here but what is your point? Meaning, to what do you attribute the declining ability to play pass defense at OU? Personally, I don't think we are massively screwing up recruiting or talent evaluation. I've seen this guys (like Javon Harris) make enough stellar plays to know they have ability. I've seen them get beat enough to know something is wrong.

Edit: Trust me, I remember the Bassey and DJ Wolfe secondaries. My point about Bassey was that he had enough ability to make a pro roster, which surprised me.

Bassey had talent. His problem was the expectations put on him by his position coach to follow a legend. All we heard all offseason was Bassey, Bassey, Bassey. Then he got into games and just didn't understand how to put people on the ground like his predecessor did. I can still see him running alongside a wide receiver for 20 yards before trying to tackle him.

[ObiKaTony]

Once again, Stoops is awesome, and he will put Venebles in a good place. Brent is probably suggesting a move now. Mike Stoops will be the cordinator next year if I had to make an educated guess.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

JKM, you said that if he doesn’t recruit better line backers he should go...

CU sooner he has some good games, AS HE SHOULD AT OU. However, the bad and average games have left us statically in the cellar with superior talent. Follow logic with steps 1, 2, 3, and you will find the answer.

Those kids were lost on that field vs Baylor. The looks on their faces when the coaches were screaming were not ones of disdain but confusion. As an OU fan, I expect more and I won't apologize for it. The attitude of complacency will not win championships, excellence does, and the numbers suggest otherwise...

We've seen that before on bye weeks, specifically pokey state 2001 when we were practicing for nebraska instead of them.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Once again, Stoops is awesome, and he will put Venebles in a good place. Brent is probably suggesting a move now. Mike Stoops will be the cordinator next year if I had to make an educated guess.

And if we finish statistically the same next year, will it be time to fire Mike Stoops? or do we give him 5 years to get it right?

[ObiKaTony]

After the game with the 18 year old kids, was mike's d still ranked in the top 5? Check it out for me...

[CU Sooner]

why were they lost, i saw a look on faces that were upset they blew it not confusion. Baylor didn't run anything different than they did last year. tech didn't do anything different than they did the year before. Why is it the kids knew what to do the year before but the same ones were clueless this year. Is that that the coordinators fault or a kid who loses focus?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

After the game with the 18 year old kids, was mike's d still ranked in the top 5? Check it out for me...

I think I listed that Mike's first defense was ranked 50 right about where we are now.

[ObiKaTony]

JKM, can you share with me the evidence that Mike will lead the a defense that ranks in the bottom tier of college football. I mean, the only evidence I have of Stoops as a d cordinator at OU is him being able to get our boys ready week in and out and having them ranked in the top 5 of the country. Perhaps they could play as bad to give up 2 points to FSU in the championship game, wait, that was us who scored the points for them...

[CU Sooner]

We've seen that before on bye weeks, specifically pokey state 2001 when we were practicing for nebraska instead of them.

That one doesnt' count with MS. :biggrin:

[ObiKaTony]

90% of poster will put money on Mike having better numbers and a better defense than Brent. That is easy money JKM

[CU Sooner]

Your probably right. I never did see arizona's d get lit up, especially the secondary.

[ObiKaTony]

I think I listed that Mike's first defense was ranked 50 right about where we are now.

Nice stat! Mikes first defense was when stoops won 0 national championships, 0 conference championships, and his biggest recruiting tool was when he said, "Hey kid, I know Steve Spurrier" give me a break.

[ObiKaTony]

Your probably right. I never did see arizona's d get lit up, especially the secondary.

The very notion that you can compare coach to coordinator is laughable at best. Mike as a defensive coordinator at OU ranked his defense in the top 5 of the country. He also lead our team to win the national championship (defense won that game)

A coach and cordinator inherently are so different my fingers would cramp to type all the discrepancies

[ObiKaTony]

Mike is coming back and Brent is leaving. Mike on the sideline brings in a ton of questions that Stoops wouldn’t bother with if he wasn't planning on bringing him back. Thank God. I know top 5 and 3 games that were subpar offends people, but I will take it any day of the week.

[CU Sooner]

difference between coach and coordinator but none between coordinator and position coach? Was Mike not hired because of what he did for the defense at OU and if so don't you think he brought his philosophy? I am not going to disagree that the two positions are very different but you have to agree that there is difference between pc and dc.

I also thought he had a co-coordinator while at OU.

[ObiKaTony]

difference between coach and coordinator but none between coordinator and position coach? Was Mike not hired because of what he did for the defense at OU and if so don't you think he brought his philosophy? I am not going to disagree that the two positions are very different but you have to agree that there is difference between pc and dc.

I also thought he had a co-coordinator while at OU.

CU, I see your point, but once again the head coach controls the ENTIRE show. A coordinator's postions is speciific, hence the blame is more specific.

[ObiKaTony]

Mike's d gave up something like 28 or 35 points on 4 or 5 plays against A$M. Sumlin had figured out that our DB's were being taught to be overly aggressive and jump routes. OU's defense dominated except for those 4 or 5 plays, but we lost. That was a philosophy of Mike and Bob and it got exploited that day.

Brent has a current philosophy, and whether it is the "right call" or not, far too often, there are matchup problems or BV puts 1 player in a position to where if they fail, it is a huge bust. He gets exploited frequently.


My biggest issue with OU, both offensively and defensively, has been that the Stoops philosophy is usually "Here we are. This is our offense/defense. Now beat it." This is opposed to the philosophy "we see your offensive/defensive strengths and we are going to attack/defend those."

Against the big name teams, it seems OU tries philosophy #2. Against teams OU doesn't see as a threat(Tech, Baylor, etc), OU goes with philosophy #1.

Until Stoops takes every team equally serious, the team will come out multiple times a year flat and without a gameplan. The players know and sense this.

Mike's D gave up points and yardage that were bested by only 4 teams in the nation... Mike's D in 4 seasons was the 5th best defense in the nation. Where we at now? Yes, things have changed in the league. However, to have such a drastic drop off in production is unaccpetable.

[the_edge]

Mike is coming back and Brent is leaving.

Only if Venables gets a head coaching gig.

Bob Stoops made it pretty clear during his press conference this week that he is totally content with going 10-2. If that ever changes, maybe he'd have the cojones to fire an old friend, but I seriously doubt it.

[NormanPride]

There is no way in hell that Mike comes back. And if he does, get ready to have no talent in the secondary... if Brent is a bad recruiter, then Mike is an anti-recruiter.