I think Willie Martinez is a bad secondary coach!

[OUInformant]

I mean, this is my opinion only, but our secondary seems awful! I think Martinez should no longer be the secondary coach, because I don't think I've ever seen a secondary this bad.

[hawaii 5-0]

I recall when he first came to the Sooner's staff some poster said we'd be sorry.

5-0

[OUInformant]

Let him coach other positions, but not the secondary.

[Soonerjeepman]

didn't he get fired from Georgia...before we hired him? not the whole staff got fired, just him...thought I remember hearing that thinking..."why are we hiring someone who just got fired for the same position..."

[MamaMia]

Our secondary D has always sucked since Stoops and Venebles strolled into town. Yeah, Martinez sucks, but so have all the others. Did the thought ever occur to anyone that Venebles may have something to do with that? He is the defensive coordinator. The buck stops there.

[Sooner Cal]

It's the talent and the scheme. Javon isn't the first safety we've had who bites on play action and gets beaten deep. In fact, we have a long line of guys that played that way. He isn't even the first Harris to get smoked.

I've never been impressed by Javon. We're in trouble if he's the best we've got.

The entire world knows how to beat our scheme.

[AlboSooner]

The defense is out there more than usual. When you have your defense out there for a long time, you take more chances on injuries, blown coverages and so on.... We need to move away from this Texas Tech offense.

[OUInformant]

The defense is out there more than usual. When you have your defense out there for a long time, you take more chances on injuries, blown coverages and so on.... We need to move away from this Texas Tech offense.

I gotta agree. I think we need a run/pass pro style offense. We definitely have to run the ball more.

[soonerspiff]

I mean, this is my opinion only, but our secondary seems awful! I think Martinez should no longer be the secondary coach, because I don't think I've every seen a secondary this bad.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f_DPrSEOEo

[Blue]

It's the talent and the scheme. Javon isn't the first safety we've had who bites on play action and gets beaten deep. In fact, we have a long line of guys that played that way. He isn't even the first Harris to get smoked.

I've never been impressed by Javon. We're in trouble if he's the best we've got.

The entire world knows how to beat our scheme.

yeah he'll prob end up in the NFL ala Pool, Carter, etc and play like a pro. It's the DC and everyone knows it.

[SoonerMarkVA]

We've had too many guys coaching the secondary at this point to just say they all suck. I think something about the scheme is either too confusing for the secondary, or exposes them too much. I don't pretend to know the answer, but I can't believe for the last several years that every coach, and every player, has been this inadequate. The one thing that hasn't seemed to change much is the scheme.

[soonervegas]

We were def warned by Georgia fans.....and some Sooner fans have been warning us about the D coordinator for about 7 years now.

[MamaMia]

We've had too many guys coaching the secondary at this point to just say they all suck. I think something about the scheme is either too confusing for the secondary, or exposes them too much. I don't pretend to know the answer, but I can't believe for the last several years that every coach, and every player, has been this inadequate. The one thing that hasn't seemed to change much is the scheme. Who is the common denominator? Therein lies your answer. Lest we forget that even Bo Pelini said, after being hired from OU to coach at LSU, that he was "looking forward to be working for a program where his hands would 'no longer' be tied." Hmmm....What does that tell us?

[AlboSooner]

yeah he'll prob end up in the NFL ala Pool, Carter, etc and play like a pro. It's the DC and everyone knows it.

agree. it's surprising to see how many players OU sends to NFL, and they do really well.

[freshchris05]

Who is the common denominator? Therein lies your answer. Lest we forget that even Bo Pelini said, after being hired from OU to coach at LSU, that he was "looking forward to be working for a program where his hands would 'no longer' be tied." Hmmm....What does that tell us?

Cuz his defense looked great today!

[Okie35]

The defense is out there more than usual. When you have your defense out there for a long time, you take more chances on injuries, blown coverages and so on.... We need to move away from this Texas Tech offense.

We don't run a TT offense but I agree we need to go back to bunch, power, etc.. we need to mix it up more. I HATE the spread.

[MamaMia]

Cuz his defense looked great today! As the DC at LSU, he won a National Championship with Les Miles. It would be interesting to see how many points were scored against his defensive that year. Nebraska played Michigan today IN Michigan. I shutter to think how many points they would have scored against us. Even though he is the head coach of a 3 loss team, not the defensive coordinator, his defense gives up an average of 24 points a game, scoring an average of 31.45 points a game.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Our secondary D has always sucked since Stoops and Venebles strolled into town. Yeah, Martinez sucks, but so have all the others. Did the thought ever occur to anyone that Venebles may have something to do with that? He is the defensive coordinator. The buck stops there.

As I've said before, you need to go back a lot farther than Stoops for this one -> There is a reason that before Stoops got here, our "All Time Team" on NCAA Football consisted of Corner 1951, Corner 1956, Safety 1984, Safety 1950.

My question is what do you take from this 50 year drought? Do you take the fact that OU has always suffered recruiting kids like this? or that 50 years of coaches have been braindead with regard to secondary personnel?

[cleller]

Martinez was the DB coach at Georgia for awhile, then elevated to DC. It was then that he was fired. The rumor mill at the time was he was a good DB coach, but bad DC.

Watching the OU practice videos over the summer, I thought Martinez at least LOOKED like a good coach. He was on the guys all the time, not in crappy way, but very much hands on.

[PLaw]

didn't he get fired from Georgia...before we hired him? not the whole staff got fired, just him...thought I remember hearing that thinking..."why are we hiring someone who just got fired for the same position..."

hmmm, maybe he has a Youngstown connection to the neighborhood.

Seriously, we have the same problems that we had before Stoops hired him. I'd say it is time for him to get PIP (performance inprovement plan) which usually is the first step to getting moved out of the organization.

[FaninAma]

Our problems are basic schematic problems.

1. Our DBs play passive.
2. Our DBs never disrupt routes.
3. Our DBs always allow receivers get inside of them.
4. We bring pressure well in parts of the game and then back off.
5. The more pressure we bring the more passive our DBs play.

These problems are philisophical that start and end with Venables.

Physical play will stop a finesse offense every time if the offense isn't vastly superior from an athleticism standpoint.

Allowing receivers in a spread offense to get off the line unencumbered and run in space in a soft zone is the definition of insanity.

BTW did anybody else notice that a lot of our good runs occured when the RB( not by design but by their own decision) broke back against the designed flow of the play. Why this staff does not use more misdirection to keep defenses honest is beyond me.

As i said in another thread Bob and his staff are complacent.

[OU_Sooners75]

Our secondary D has always sucked since Stoops and Venebles strolled into town. Yeah, Martinez sucks, but so have all the others. Did the thought ever occur to anyone that Venebles may have something to do with that? He is the defensive coordinator. The buck stops there.

Huh...no it hasn't.

Under Mike Stoops, we gave up some big plays...but then again, we had a secondary that could play man to man if called upon.

[OU_Sooners75]

Oh and yes...there is a reason Georgia fired Martinez...He sucks and if memory serves correctly, he is also the coach that made a couple of DBs leave the program.

[EatLeadCommie]

I recall when he first came to the Sooner's staff some poster said we'd be sorry.

5-0
Actually, that guy was thinking about his time as DC at Georgia and he was shown up in that thread. He actually had a good track record as the secondary coach at UGA, but a bad one as DC. I like what he has done with our corners. They are much more physical since he has arrived. The problem is that our safety play absolutely blows, and I suppose he deserves some blame for that. However, we have been getting beat deep since 2003, so make of that what you will. Venables is the bigger problem.

[OU_Sooners75]

Actually, that guy was thinking about his time as DC at Georgia and he was shown up in that thread. He actually had a good track record as the secondary coach at UGA, but a bad one as DC. I like what he has done with our corners. They are much more physical since he has arrived. The problem is that our safety play absolutely blows, and I suppose he deserves some blame for that. However, we have been getting beat deep since 2003, so make of that what you will. Venables is the bigger problem.

Just since 2003?

Care to tell me what happened vs. OSU in 2002? What about A&M in 2002?

Remember Rashaun Woods and Reggie McNeil?

[SoonerLaw09]

I think there are a lot of factors with the secondary. I believe one time last night we ended up with Travis Lewis covering Wright on a streak route. No idea how that happened (I think it was the play that was overthrown, but it might have been one of the TDs). Both our O and D are built around schemes and systems that are getting long in the tooth, kinda like the wishbone eventually did. Once coaches got over the shock of seeing it, they started working on how to gameplan it. By the end of the 80s it was disappearing because coaches around the country realized how to defeat it: put faster, superior athletes at the D-end and corner positions, and stay with their assignments. The d-coords started recruiting speed on D, and whoosh, no more 'bone.

The spread offense has reached a similar critical position, IMO. It still works if you have better athletes with mad skills who don't make mistakes, like throwing into quad coverage, locking receivers, and dropping balls constantly. And your o-line has to be stellar (which ours was last night). But the era of the spread is ending, and we better start adjusting.

Our D scheme is past that point. The "bend but don't break" has now been gameplanned and unless the secondary plays perfectly, it can and will get beat. And as others have said you have to have players with the brain power to grasp it. It's also a lousy way to defend a spread team unless your players are better than theirs. All this is to say that if your "scheme" relies on having better, smarter, faster players, and you don't, well...the result is obvious. Even if you recruit well, the guy might not pan out character-wise, or might get a season-ending injury, both of which have been real bugaboos for us the last several years. Also in Stoops schemes the backups don't get much work, so they're not ready to play when called upon (a certain d-back in the TT game comes to mind). Or the reason they're a backup is they're not as good as the guy in front of them, so the scheme breaks down at that point.

Something has to change on both sides of the ball, or we will be between an 8-5 and a 10-2 team from here on out, unless we have a miracle season where nobody gets hurt and we have a set of players who almost never make mistakes. That just doesn't happen any more. The reason why the SEC is going on 6 in a row is they have adjusted the way they play to eliminate the problems above, for the most part, going with less gimmicky offenses and aggressive no-nonsense D. We need to look at this and take heed.

[mightysooner]

Our defensive scheme is outdated and weak. It's a passive, reactionary defensive scheme that attempts to flow with the direction of the play and hopes to keep everything underneath instead of disrupting a play or dictating to the offense. It's soft and ineffective. All we do is react. We stand in the backfield while receivers streak through our zones, staring at the QB's eyes while guarding patches of grass and "passing lanes", instead of actually guarding PEOPLE. This is the most laughable defensive scheme currently running anywhere in D-I football that I can see.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Oh and yes...there is a reason Georgia fired Martinez...He sucks and if memory serves correctly, he is also the coach that made a couple of DBs leave the program.

So I thought that this was made with some kind of knowledge. Martinez was involved with the secondary from 2001 to 2009 (DC from 2006 to 2009), in that time they were in the top 20 in pass defense 6 out of the first 8 years (with 2 mid 30s), his last year they were at 60 which looks like Martinez just couldn't rationalize an entire defense but did well working within other people's schemes.

[MamaMia]

Huh...no it hasn't.

Under Mike Stoops, we gave up some big plays...but then again, we had a secondary that could play man to man if called upon. True. He was good. He blitzed a lot which worked out well most of the time. The way he changed the defensive scheme when we played for the NC was brilliant.

I think we would have won against LSU if he would have stayed.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Our defensive scheme is outdated and weak. It's a passive, reactionary defensive scheme that attempts to flow with the direction of the play and hopes to keep everything underneath instead of disrupting a play or dictating to the offense. It's soft and ineffective. All we do is react. We stand in the backfield while receivers streak through our zones, staring at the QB's eyes while guarding patches of grass and "passing lanes", instead of actually guarding PEOPLE. This is the most laughable defensive scheme currently running anywhere in D-I football that I can see.

These posts make no sense, we've probably ran 3x as much man as pure zone this year.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

True. He was good. He blitzed a lot which worked out well most of the time. The way he changed the defensive scheme when we played for the NC was brilliant.

I think we would have won against LSU if he would have stayed.

But once again, he could CALL the scheme, but he couldn't RECRUIT to the scheme. Had he stayed for 2 more years we would have had 4 walkons in the secondary with DJ Wolfe.

[StoopTroup]

I have been on the record since I saw how our Secondary has been Struggling that he wasn't a good fit for us. After plenty of BS posts I got for it, I let my opinion go. It's funny to see folks start to figure things out. I have no problem saying "I told you so". Firing Venables isn't the right way to go. It all has to do with
What was the weak link and has been the weak link in our Defense and it's him. It always has been that we need a decent Secondary Coach. We've been getting hit hard by QBs with an arm. Last night we got hit by one of the best QBs we have faced this year and he tore our Secondary a new anus.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I have been on the record since I saw how our Secondary has been Struggling that he wasn't a good fit for us. After plenty of BS posts I got for it, I let my opinion go. It's funny to see folks start to figure things out. I have no problem saying "I told you so". Firing Venables isn't the right way to go. It all has to do with
What was the weak link and has been the weak link in our Defense and it's him. It always has been that we need a decent Secondary Coach. We've been getting hit hard by QBs with an arm. Last night we got hit by one of the best QBs we have faced this year and he tore our Secondary a new anus.

That's fair. You think its him and not the guys that he didn't recruit?

[Widescreen]

So I thought that this was made with some kind of knowledge. Martinez was involved with the secondary from 2001 to 2009 (DC from 2006 to 2009), in that time they were in the top 20 in pass defense 6 out of the first 8 years (with 2 mid 30s), his last year they were at 60 which looks like Martinez just couldn't rationalize an entire defense but did well working within other people's schemes.
The SEC doesn't have that many prolific passing offenses. I imagine it's easier to have good pass defense numbers when most of the teams you face run the ball primarily.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The SEC doesn't have that many prolific passing offenses. I imagine it's easier to have good pass defense numbers when most of the teams you face run the ball primarily.

2001-2005, didn't florida and ole miss wing it around at that time? Thinking Eli and such...

[Widescreen]

2001-2005, didn't florida and ole miss wing it around at that time? Thinking Eli and such...
Possibly. But a couple of teams is not most of the conference. Just speculating.

[Soonerman08]

I have been on the record since I saw how our Secondary has been Struggling that he wasn't a good fit for us. After plenty of BS posts I got for it, I let my opinion go. It's funny to see folks start to figure things out. I have no problem saying "I told you so". Firing Venables isn't the right way to go. It all has to do with
What was the weak link and has been the weak link in our Defense and it's him. It always has been that we need a decent Secondary Coach. We've been getting hit hard by QBs with an arm. Last night we got hit by one of the best QBs we have faced this year and he tore our Secondary a new anus.


I suppose you immediately thought Pelini was a poor fit too, eh? I don't think the problem is necessarily Martinez, but more so Venables. He seems to be the common denominator. Secondary sucked in 2004 when we had Pelini, it has sucked quite a bit under both BJW and now Martinez. You can't tell me this is squarely on Martinez's shoulders because this problem didn't just pop up when he arrived. Just sayin'.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I suppose you immediately thought Pelini was a poor fit too, eh? I don't think the problem is necessarily Martinez, but more so Venables. He seems to be the common denominator. Secondary sucked in 2004 when we had Pelini, it has sucked quite a bit under both BJW and now Martinez. You can't tell me this is squarely on Martinez's shoulders because this problem didn't just pop up when he arrived. Just sayin'.

Man, you paint with a broad brush don't you?

I take it that it was BV's fault that we lost Brodney Pool to the NFL as an Early Entrant?

Was it BV's fault that these were the players in Mike Stoops' 2001-2003 recruiting classes?

Aaron Miller
Avery Shine
Bobby Klinck
Brett Bowers
Brodney Pool
Chijioke Onyenegecha
Darien Williams
Donte Nicholson
Eric Bassey
Jason Carter
Jowahn Poteat
Justin Williams
Marcus Walker
Micheal Hawkins
Tony Cade

Italics are those kids that transferred

There were 3 good players in that group and 1 left as an EE and 2 were perenially hurt while they were here. Our pan out rate in the secondary over the last decade has been horrid if you take out the 1999/2000 classes. You can't even say that its an evaluation thing because outside of the occasional UT gem, all programs that recruit Texas are experiencing the same thing.

As to our DC, Venables has his issues.

#1 is that he is a linebacker coach so he wants his defense to center on the linebackers (even in this pass happy league).
#2 is that he has never been able to consistently project high school linebackers even back to his time at KState (he's on record as questioning why they would recruit Rocky Calmus because he wouldn't be that good at the college level).
#3 is that he is afraid of playing really good undersized linebackers. He didn't let Gayron Allen on the field until his senior year when Mitchell went down even though the undersized Allen played like an OU linebacker.
#4 is the inconsistency with pressure during games. I know that he is trying to mix it up and not give up too much film, but with this secondary it just doesn't make much sense.

[pphilfran]

Good post JKM

[StoopTroup]

Our secondary D has always sucked since Stoops and Venebles strolled into town.

It's great to express your feelings.

You are absolutely wrong about this though. Maybe a Roy Williams Horsecollar will bring you around....lol ;)

[OUInformant]

I've stepped back from the ledge a bit from when I started this thread. I don't think we should relieve Coach Martinez from his secondary coaching duties, but this is what I have to say about our secondary and defense in general.

IMO, the coaches are getting too caught up in the mechanical side of defense. I think we have scheme problems in that our defense is too complicated and mechanical. It is a paper defense, that is just way too hard to execute in real life, at least consistently. I just don't think that Javon Harris knows what to do half the time, as we are giving him too many options to choose from. If it were me, I would just tell him to "blitz the QB" or "cover so-and-so". Really, that's it.

I say just let the kids go out there and play man-to-man and throw in a couple of blitzes from time-to-time. With the athletes we have, this would probably turn out better for us, IMO. If a DB can't cover a guy, then we can drop a safety on that guy specifically.

I refuse to believe that Gabe Lynn, the nation's #1 corner out of HS, can't cover anybody on Texas Tech. Also, I'm pretty sure that Javon can play football. I just think our coaches need to re-evaluate how they are coaching these kids. High profile status and a big paycheck doesn't guarantee good work.

[StoopTroup]

I suppose you immediately thought Pelini was a poor fit too, eh? I don't think the problem is necessarily Martinez, but more so Venables. He seems to be the common denominator. Secondary sucked in 2004 when we had Pelini, it has sucked quite a bit under both BJW and now Martinez. You can't tell me this is squarely on Martinez's shoulders because this problem didn't just pop up when he arrived. Just sayin'.

Nope. I was glad he was gone too. I think it's pretty apparent that he's been able to own OU and the Big X since being at NU.

Yep. It's Martinez job to have the Secondary not only ready but to have players ready on the Depth Chart.

Please enlighten me on who he had ready to put in in case our Starters had trouble or were injured?

[StoopTroup]

I've stepped back from the ledge a bit from when I started this thread. I don't think we should relieve Coach Martinez from his secondary coaching duties, but this is what I have to say about our secondary and defense in general.

IMO, the coaches are getting too caught up in the mechanical side of defense. I think we have scheme problems in that our defense is too complicated and mechanical. It is a paper defense, that is just way too hard to execute in real life, at least consistently. I just don't think that Javon Harris knows what to do half the time, as we are giving him too many options to choose from. If it were me, I would just tell him to "blitz the QB" or "cover so-and-so". Really, that's it.

I say just let the kids go out there and play man-to-man and throw in a couple of blitzes from time-to-time. With the athletes we have, this would probably turn out better for us, IMO. If a DB can't cover a guy, then we can drop a safety on that guy specifically.

I refuse to believe that Gabe Lynn, the nation's #1 corner out of HS, can't cover anybody on Texas Tech. Also, I'm pretty sure that Javon can play football. I just think our coaches need to re-evaluate how they are coaching these kids. High profile status and a big paycheck doesn't guarantee good work.

How many Tackles did Gabe make Saturday?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Nope. I was glad he was gone too. I think it's pretty apparent that he's been able to own OU and the Big X since being at NU.

Yep. It's Martinez job to have the Secondary not only ready but to have players ready on the Depth Chart.

Please enlighten me on who he had ready to put in in case our Starters had trouble or were injured?

Heh, Pelini contributed something to the team. This was his recruiting class in the secondary:

Brian Jackson
Keenan Clayton
Nic Harris
Reggie Smith

That is one solid class with all of them spending time on at least NFL practice squads.

[sooneron]

Gawd, thanks for reminding me about Tony Cade.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

They all made rosters at different points..Harris the only one not currently on a roster

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I've stepped back from the ledge a bit from when I started this thread. I don't think we should relieve Coach Martinez from his secondary coaching duties, but this is what I have to say about our secondary and defense in general.

IMO, the coaches are getting too caught up in the mechanical side of defense. I think we have scheme problems in that our defense is too complicated and mechanical. It is a paper defense, that is just way too hard to execute in real life, at least consistently. I just don't think that Javon Harris knows what to do half the time, as we are giving him too many options to choose from. If it were me, I would just tell him to "blitz the QB" or "cover so-and-so". Really, that's it.

I say just let the kids go out there and play man-to-man and throw in a couple of blitzes from time-to-time. With the athletes we have, this would probably turn out better for us, IMO. If a DB can't cover a guy, then we can drop a safety on that guy specifically.

I refuse to believe that Gabe Lynn, the nation's #1 corner out of HS, can't cover anybody on Texas Tech. Also, I'm pretty sure that Javon can play football. I just think our coaches need to re-evaluate how they are coaching these kids. High profile status and a big paycheck doesn't guarantee good work.

Lets analyze your thoughts on Man to Man:

When you look at playing man to man, you look at the following things:

1. Can your best cover guy matchup with their best receiver?
2. Can your 2nd best cover guy matchup with their 2nd best receiver
3. Can your 3rd best cover guy matchup with their 3rd best receiver
4. Can your 4th best cover guy matchup with their 4th best receiver
5. Can your 5th best cover guy matchup with their 5th best receiver
6. If they run 5 receivers, can you stop the run with 6 guys?
7. If you can stop the run, can you still get pressure?

Thinking about swopes on our 3rd or 4th best cover guy isn't a pretty thought. And that has constantly been a problem in our secondary.

So let's think about our recruiting over the last decade:

Recruits that panned out by quality

1. Recruits that could consistently cover a #1 -> 2 - Michael Thompson (pre-injury), Derrick Strait (assuming pushoffs are called ;))
2. Recruits that could consistently cover a #2 -> 3 - brian jackson, antonio perkins, andre woolfolk
3. Recruits that could consistently cover a #3 -> plethora -> (fleming, hearst, chijoke, dj wolfe, etc)

So as you can see, by running a man to man, we are having to elevate talent to cover the #1s and #2s and then we take a quality hit on the #3/#4#5 because we've never had that kind of coverage depth because of attrition or non-pan outs. This doesn't even consider how badly we'd be skewered in the run game trying to do this crap.

The reason that zone works for us is the same reason the spread works for us -> OU tends to attract a ton of above average talent at the WR/DB positions. We can't overwhelm you with elite guys 1 on 1, but we can kill you with having 2 really good players in the general vicinity that make it much tougher on you.

[prrriiide]

I believe it should be a standard rider on a secondary coach's contract that giving up more than 400 yds of passing in a single game is just cause for immediate termination for incompetence.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Lets analyze your thoughts on Man to Man:

When you look at playing man to man, you look at the following things:

1. Can your best cover guy matchup with their best receiver?
2. Can your 2nd best cover guy matchup with their 2nd best receiver
3. Can your 3rd best cover guy matchup with their 3rd best receiver
4. Can your 4th best cover guy matchup with their 4th best receiver
5. Can your 5th best cover guy matchup with their 5th best receiver
6. If they run 5 receivers, can you stop the run with 6 guys?
7. If you can stop the run, can you still get pressure?

Thinking about swopes on our 3rd or 4th best cover guy isn't a pretty thought. And that has constantly been a problem in our secondary.

So let's think about our recruiting over the last decade:

Recruits that panned out by quality

1. Recruits that could consistently cover a #1 -> 2 - Michael Thompson (pre-injury), Derrick Strait (assuming pushoffs are called ;))
2. Recruits that could consistently cover a #2 -> 3 - brian jackson, antonio perkins, andre woolfolk
3. Recruits that could consistently cover a #3 -> plethora -> (fleming, hearst, chijoke, dj wolfe, etc)

So as you can see, by running a man to man, we are having to elevate talent to cover the #1s and #2s and then we take a quality hit on the #3/#4#5 because we've never had that kind of coverage depth because of attrition or non-pan outs. This doesn't even consider how badly we'd be skewered in the run game trying to do this crap.

The reason that zone works for us is the same reason the spread works for us -> OU tends to attract a ton of above average talent at the WR/DB positions. We can't overwhelm you with elite guys 1 on 1, but we can kill you with having 2 really good players in the general vicinity that make it much tougher on you.

I've posted about this a few times but not at this depth..Even though I might put Woolfolk in wtih Thompson and Strait, I agree ...

[pphilfran]

jk, did you play ball?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I've posted about this a few times but not at this depth..Even though I might put Woolfolk in wtih Thompson and Strait, I agree ...

I always viewed woolfolk as a 1.5, he could cover a 1 in a pinch but he was much better dominating a #2. And for the record, I consider Texas's Roy Williams a #2. Brian Jackson could do this in a pinch too if the refs let him get away with his physical jamming at the LOS.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

jk, did you play ball?

Baseball. However, I did take theory of coaching with B.Tubbs.

[pphilfran]

Baseball. However, I did take theory of coaching with B.Tubbs.

That explains it...

Whatever the case you do a nice analysis...

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I always viewed woolfolk as a 1.5, he could cover a 1 in a pinch but he was much better dominating a #2. And for the record, I consider Texas's Roy Williams a #2. Brian Jackson could do this in a pinch too if the refs let him get away with his physical jamming at the LOS.

Yeah, Jackson didn't really have the hips Woolfolk had, but he used his body well, better than Woolfolk..

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I've posted about this a few times but not at this depth..Even though I might put Woolfolk in wtih Thompson and Strait, I agree ...

One of the more interesting things that I've seen is that OU tends to get a bunch of "other players" off of high school teams that dominate in college.

Woolfolk we took as a chance to get his more profile teammate (who went to Texas and got bounced because of writing a bunch of bogus checks).
We took Mark Clayton who was considered the 3rd best receiver on his team.
Right now we have Whaley and Jaz Reynolds who also fall into that category.

[delhalew]

Man, you paint with a broad brush don't you?

I take it that it was BV's fault that we lost Brodney Pool to the NFL as an Early Entrant?

Was it BV's fault that these were the players in Mike Stoops' 2001-2003 recruiting classes?

Aaron Miller
Avery Shine
Bobby Klinck
Brett Bowers
Brodney Pool
Chijioke Onyenegecha
Darien Williams
Donte Nicholson
Eric Bassey
Jason Carter
Jowahn Poteat
Justin Williams
Marcus Walker
Micheal Hawkins
Tony Cade

Italics are those kids that transferred

There were 3 good players in that group and 1 left as an EE and 2 were perenially hurt while they were here. Our pan out rate in the secondary over the last decade has been horrid if you take out the 1999/2000 classes. You can't even say that its an evaluation thing because outside of the occasional UT gem, all programs that recruit Texas are experiencing the same thing.

As to our DC, Venables has his issues.

#1 is that he is a linebacker coach so he wants his defense to center on the linebackers (even in this pass happy league).
#2 is that he has never been able to consistently project high school linebackers even back to his time at KState (he's on record as questioning why they would recruit Rocky Calmus because he wouldn't be that good at the college level).
#3 is that he is afraid of playing really good undersized linebackers. He didn't let Gayron Allen on the field until his senior year when Mitchell went down even though the undersized Allen played like an OU linebacker.
#4 is the inconsistency with pressure during games. I know that he is trying to mix it up and not give up too much film, but with this secondary it just doesn't make much sense.

I like this post...certainly, in a great way.

[baja okla]

I was at the game and was amazed at how badly our guys were beaten on the deep throws. Don't mind if a superior athelete runs a good route and beats a guy every now and then, but when play after play the receiver is 10 yards deeper than any defender, then something is wrong with the scheme. Don't know if it showed up on TV, but each time after we were burned on a deep route, our secondary guys were pointing at each other and were obviously frustrated as to who should have been covering who.

I am no coach, but after this happens a couple of times, don't you react? maybe have one of the safeties play centerfield?

As good as RG III is, and he is GOOD, we should not have lost this game. Our defence had one major fail after another. Exposed.

What good passer have we beaten this year? OSU could kill us if we don't cover their guys deep.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I was at the game and was amazed at how badly our guys were beaten on the deep throws. Don't mind if a superior athelete runs a good route and beats a guy every now and then, but when play after play the receiver is 10 yards deeper than any defender, then something is wrong with the scheme. Don't know if it showed up on TV, but each time after we were burned on a deep route, our secondary guys were pointing at each other and were obviously frustrated as to who should have been covering who.

I am no coach, but after this happens a couple of times, don't you react? maybe have one of the safeties play centerfield?

As good as RG III is, and he is GOOD, we should not have lost this game. Our defence had one major fail after another. Exposed.

What good passer have we beaten this year? OSU could kill us if we don't cover their guys deep.

If you were watching the game, then you saw that it was our "centerfielder" who was exposed. Think of it as a baseball player who runs up every time instead of taking a step back and then getting torched.

[Widescreen]

What good passer have we beaten this year? OSU could kill us if we don't cover their guys deep.
They could but I'm not expecting it since Weeden is a statue. When you've got a guy who can roll away from pressures and buy time, it's WAY more difficult to deal with in the secondary. Weeden's going to just stand back there. Hopefully we can abuse him (tougher task with Ronnell out).

[cvsooner]

So it's less the scheme than the personnel. Poor ol' Javon. Watching Saturday I couldn't imagine what scheme could have helped him out.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So it's less the scheme than the personnel. Poor ol' Javon. Watching Saturday I couldn't imagine what scheme could have helped him out.

I used to post on agtimes back in the early 2000's.

In 2000 against Kansas our D was figured out.
In 2001 against KState our D was figured out.
In 2002 against them and OState our D was figured out
In 2003 against Kstate our D was figured out (and then LSU)
In 2004 against USC our D was figured out

It just was impossible for them to comprehend that the Tampa 2 fit OU to a T, but sometimes we had personnel issues within the D that could be exploited (IE everage's ankle) ESPECIALLY late in the year. When OU loses early (defensively), we aren't very good. When we lose late (defensively) its because we aren't very good at a specific position and film finally got us. The one exception was 2001 where we returned 9 out of 11 players and there was a TON of film on those guys no matter how good they were.

[cvsooner]

And thus back to the classic "not so much the X's and O's but the Jimmies and Joes" canard.

[cvsooner]

So with a first rate passer and a great receiver we're toast, unless we can get enough pressure on the guy. Not having to worry about him running like crazy should help, though it didn't do much for us against Doege. Well, they've got something to prove against ISU, which is coming off a huge win, and ISU has an extra day to prep, and we've got one less. Don't know if we were caught looking ahead (again), but that seems likely, as well. Fortunately, we're home, it's Senior Day and ISU, while well-coached, scares me a little less.

Meanwhile, I'm sure Weeden and Blackmon are gearing up the long ball. Maybe there's a good answer in our personnel there somewhere, but the entire D has got to play better. Maybe we'll heal up miraculously for that game and for the bowl game.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

And thus back to the classic "not so much the X's and O's but the Jimmies and Joes" canard.

I'd say there is more to it than that.

1st, BV has moved us to a defense that doesn't match our talent.
2nd, MS and BV together are much much better than BV and whoever is our pass defense coordinator is now.
3rd, our defense has degenerated into 1 person on the field knowing where the other 10 line up. That is horrid.

Now as far the Johnny/Joe argument:

1. Our overall defensive talent is higher than it was from 2000-2003.
2. That talent level has not converted to meaningful game production at any position other than defensive end. As a matter of a fact, DE along with WR are the only positions throughout Stoops tenure that have consistently provided above average production.
3. So compared with 2001, as far as effectivness -> DE is up, DT is down, LB are way down, secondary is way down

So what do we need to do?

1. I'd suggest we bring in another DC that is good at stopping the pass. Whether this be Mike Stoops or someone else, I think it needs to be done. Can Patton to make room for this guy and give the dude doing the OTs and TEs the entire OL + TEs along with 2 GAs instead of 1. This would leave us with 2 secondary coaches (3 with Bob) to get these guys assignment sound.
2. Build a skeletal 2 deep safety defensive scheme that flexes from more man under to zone under depending on personnel quality (defined as talent + ability to not bust in the scheme). There should be plenty of flexibility within the scheme to adjust to various positional weaknesses/strengths that allow you to get your best playmakers on the field.
3. Move to a more national recruiting stance on defensive backs.

[cvsooner]

Good points all. So, jkm, with the current talent, what defense would you run? Are we talking about something that you think could be improved over the rest of this season or are we talking massive changes that would take a year or three to implement?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I don't think you can do anything for pokey state other than some personnel swaps. They may do something for the bowl game in prep for next year, but I'm not sure.

First, lets categorize what we have (and this is total 20/20 hindsight and totally unfair to our coaches).

DE - 2 NFL quality DEs, 2 will be very good backups
DT - 1 Good DT, 2 Avg DTs
LB (this is where it gets complicated)
1 LB -> Knows all the calls, good in interior run support when unblocked, avg edge defender, below average in pass defense
1 LB -> Good in interior run support when unblocked, good edge defender, below avg in pass defense
1 LB -> Good in interior run support, below avg edge defender, below avg pass defense
1 LB -> Good blitzer, good edge defender, below avg int run support, avg pass defender

CB -> Good Pass defenders, Avg edge defenders, tend to lose concentration and loaf on 1-2 big plays per game

Safety
2 Roybacks -> Both good to great in run support and shallow pass defense, below average deep pass defense, both tend to generate turnovers in shallow pass defense, but give up big plays in deep pass defense, inconsistent play from game to game
1 FS -> Good at deep pass defense, Average run support and shallow pass defense ->
1 FS -> below Avg to avg pass defense/run support but inconsistent

So looking at this, you can see that we really have some issues. Our linebackers excel when there are no blockers but there isn't anyone to keep blockers off of them. Our best players are the DEs that have to be on the outside to do damage. This is what I saw at the first of the season and why I didn't think this D would be very good. Good defenses tend to be strong from the inside out and we just don't fit the bill (though jaydan bird ended up being a nice surprise in the middle). Before Ronnell went out, we tried pushing FA inside to a kind of 3-4 DE, when we did he disappeared. Ronnell faired a little better, but pushing him inside put pressure on your edge defense on that side.

So 20/20 hindsight we probably go with a 3-3 with FA on the outside and Ronnel inside (with 1 DT, put bird in the middle Lewis/Nelson (Running downs/passing downs) on the boundary side and Wort on the field side. For subs, king in for RL and RJ in for FA.

The secondary is a little harder because 2 of your better run defenders play the same position (Jefferson/Harris). So I'd probably go some kind of Quarters coverage with either Jefferson or Nelson rolling Field side flats for run support.

[cvsooner]

And still not enough depth. Case in point: no Ronnell as of right now. But good analysis. Every defense has its weaknesses, as you've ably demonstrated.

[sooneron]

DT - 1 Good DT, 2 Avg DTs
LB (this is where it gets complicated)
1 LB -> Knows all the calls, good in interior run support when unblocked, avg edge defender, below average in pass defense
1 LB -> Good in interior run support when unblocked, good edge defender, below avg in pass defense
1 LB -> Good in interior run support, below avg edge defender, below avg pass defense
1 LB -> Good blitzer, good edge defender, below avg int run support, avg pass defender


Looking at our current verbals, we have NO DTs listed. Actually, we barely have any prospects, either! We have 2 DEs and 1 Linebacker . WTF is going on?

[sooneron]

After checking the depth chart, I can see why DT isn't so huge and there don't seem to be too many out there...

We don't have one senior at DT> Let's hope all of those frosh-juniors this year can clog the middle better.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

After checking the depth chart, I can see why DT isn't so huge and there don't seem to be too many out there...

We don't have one senior at DT> Let's hope all of those frosh-juniors this year can clog the middle better.

Yeah, we are trying to build up depth. In our history, We tend to be overly weak at positions that experience early entrants for 1-2 years after they leave. Most of this is because we have to play kids who are just not physically ready for the punishment. They then get hurt and we for all intents and purposes lose their productivity. I mean a lot of people complain about us playing starters late, but when you think about the numbers, there tends to be a reason.

85 players
-25 Freshman Redshirts
-25 Starters
-15 players who play a lot (special teams or as subs)
= 20 players maximum (normally there are only 15 here)
Of those 15, 10 probably aren't ready to play yet. It isn't that difficult to see why he doesn't pull those guys.

[StoopTroup]

Heh, Pelini contributed something to the team. This was his recruiting class in the secondary:

Brian Jackson
Keenan Clayton
Nic Harris
Reggie Smith

That is one solid class with all of them spending time on at least NFL practice squads.

You know...you make good points and your research is usually solid but I am really trying to talk about Martinez and what happened this weekend. A guy brings up Gabe Lynn and then doesn't answer.

I haven't gone back through the entire game yet as I have been busy. I make the case that our Secondary Starters played nearly the entire night while Baylor was able to run WRs in and out all night with fresh legs. Martinez has put us in harms way and we have zero depth right now.

You might prove me wrong which would be fine but I've looked at the Game Participation Report for the Game and it seems to me that Gabe Lynn didn't play at all. Matter of fact three of our guys who are the backups for our Secondary didn't play and we didn't use any of our Freshman to back them up as either they aren't ready or they didn't make the trip maybe?

This all came up because someone asked a pretty simple question that we all know we never get a clear answer from the Coaching Staff...."Who was out with injury Saturday?".

I think our Secondary played their asses off and what looked like they were awful was that that we are short on players to back them up when they either have a bad series due to cramps or they have been fighting the flu all week or merely a cold. Even if it was just they were mismatched...we allowed them to continue to play because we didn't have anyone else to go in. At some point it would be nice to send a guy in to try and disrupt the Offense a bit differently but in the case of how we had to handle Baylor...we were to short to bring Harris in for instance and calm him down and have a talk or give him a break to pull his thoughts together.

Sometimes it's the little things that can help.

I'll go back through the game and try to see if we played anyone besides our starters...but it looks to me that we ask these guys to play 4 quarters without a break. It's not unheard of but RG3 is good at throwing a ball and Baylors WRs were pushing off a bit and getting the best of our guys. We got man handled due to being thin in the Secondary. Not because our guys suck. We are leaning on them hard and I have to think it's a good idea to have a few guys that can go in and mix things up a bit sometimes.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

You know...you make good points and your research is usually solid but I am really trying to talk about Martinez and what happened this weekend. A guy brings up Gabe Lynn and then doesn't answer.

I haven't gone back through the entire game yet as I have been busy. I make the case that our Secondary Starters played nearly the entire night while Baylor was able to run WRs in and out all night with fresh legs. Martinez has put us in harms way and we have zero depth right now.

You might prove me wrong which would be fine but I've looked at the Game Participation Report for the Game and it seems to me that Gabe Lynn didn't play at all. Matter of fact three of our guys who are the backups for our Secondary didn't play and we didn't use any of our Freshman to back them up as either they aren't ready or they didn't make the trip maybe?

This all came up because someone asked a pretty simple question that we all know we never get a clear answer from the Coaching Staff...."Who was out with injury Saturday?".

I think our Secondary played their asses off and what looked like they were awful was that that we are short on players to back them up when they either have a bad series due to cramps or they have been fighting the flu all week or merely a cold. Even if it was just they were mismatched...we allowed them to continue to play because we didn't have anyone else to go in. At some point it would be nice to send a guy in to try and disrupt the Offense a bit differently but in the case of how we had to handle Baylor...we were to short to bring Harris in for instance and calm him down and have a talk or give him a break to pull his thoughts together.

Sometimes it's the little things that can help.

I'll go back through the game and try to see if we played anyone besides our starters...but it looks to me that we ask these guys to play 4 quarters without a break. It's not unheard of but RG3 is good at throwing a ball and Baylors WRs were pushing off a bit and getting the best of our guys. We got man handled due to being thin in the Secondary. Not because our guys suck. We are leaning on them hard and I have to think it's a good idea to have a few guys that can go in and mix things up a bit sometimes.

Like I said earlier, I was curious about your reasoning with Martinez. You make some very good points here, but we have to speculate on a lot of it. A lot of what I'm going off of is what I saw in the ESPN U videos. Martinez knew his stuff, but for whatever reason, none of the other DBs could figure it out. He also didn't seem like he was as much of a hothead as the Stoops' bros and would be a guy that could retain players.

[Dale Ellis]

I mean, this is my opinion only, but our secondary seems awful! I think Martinez should no longer be the secondary coach, because I don't think I've every seen a secondary this bad.

The Texas State Armadillos had a pretty bad secondary.

[EatLeadCommie]

We rode Pelini out of town after one season because his schemes were apparently too complicated for OU. Now we want to ride Martinez out of town for the same thing. Somebody should ask Bob why it always seems to be Pelini or Martinez or the dreaded "execution" of the players while Venebles continues to get a free pass.

[Dale Ellis]

We rode Pelini out of town after one season because his schemes were apparently too complicated for OU. Now we want to ride Martinez out of town for the same thing. Somebody should ask Bob why it always seems to be Pelini or Martinez or the dreaded "execution" of the players while Venebles continues to get a free pass.

Oh chit, you shouldn't have said that, get ready for a public spanking.

[pphilfran]

Bo was not run out of town...he took the job at LSU because he was not going to have the co d coordinator stamp...it was a good move since he was going to be second fiddle at OU...

[EatLeadCommie]

I recall at the time that there were grumblings about Bo's ideas not really "fitting in"...I seem to even recall a Stoops quote a year or two later that implied the same thing.

[Breadburner]

How many points did Florida and LSU score in the NC games......

[pphilfran]

How many points did Florida and LSU score in the NC games......

59

[pphilfran]

I recall at the time that there were grumblings about Bo's ideas not really "fitting in"...I seem to even recall a Stoops quote a year or two later that implied the same thing.

He had a different style and thoughts on the d...he was not run out of town he took a job that did not have shared control...

[OUInformant]

Lets analyze your thoughts on Man to Man:

When you look at playing man to man, you look at the following things:

1. Can your best cover guy matchup with their best receiver?
2. Can your 2nd best cover guy matchup with their 2nd best receiver
3. Can your 3rd best cover guy matchup with their 3rd best receiver
4. Can your 4th best cover guy matchup with their 4th best receiver
5. Can your 5th best cover guy matchup with their 5th best receiver
6. If they run 5 receivers, can you stop the run with 6 guys?
7. If you can stop the run, can you still get pressure?

Thinking about swopes on our 3rd or 4th best cover guy isn't a pretty thought. And that has constantly been a problem in our secondary.

So let's think about our recruiting over the last decade:

Recruits that panned out by quality

1. Recruits that could consistently cover a #1 -> 2 - Michael Thompson (pre-injury), Derrick Strait (assuming pushoffs are called ;))
2. Recruits that could consistently cover a #2 -> 3 - brian jackson, antonio perkins, andre woolfolk
3. Recruits that could consistently cover a #3 -> plethora -> (fleming, hearst, chijoke, dj wolfe, etc)

So as you can see, by running a man to man, we are having to elevate talent to cover the #1s and #2s and then we take a quality hit on the #3/#4#5 because we've never had that kind of coverage depth because of attrition or non-pan outs. This doesn't even consider how badly we'd be skewered in the run game trying to do this crap.

The reason that zone works for us is the same reason the spread works for us -> OU tends to attract a ton of above average talent at the WR/DB positions. We can't overwhelm you with elite guys 1 on 1, but we can kill you with having 2 really good players in the general vicinity that make it much tougher on you.

I like your analysis on man-to-man, but, frankly, don't fully agree with your analysis of our talent.

Also, I never thought our zone worked well against QBs with an elite arm, like RGIII's and a lot of other Big 12 QBs. Against a guy like Heupel, a zone worked. Against RGIII, not so much. Also, in our cover 2, we get burned up the middle a lot.

We are at our best when we can put a whole lot of pressure on an opposing QB. In this case, we don't have to force our DBs to cover a guy for more than a couple seconds.

Will you get burned, on occasion, running man-to-man? Sure. However, despite dropping guys into coverage, we get in the most trouble when we apply absolutely no pressure on the opposing QB.

Anyways, this is only my opinion.

[sooneron]

How many points did Florida and LSU score in the NC games......

Against us? 24 and 21, respectively. Low enough that two of our best offenses ever could have overcome. Redzone play calling had something to do with it... (if you ask some around here)...

Actually, if you're calling out points against the D, 24 & 14.

[OUInformant]

I'd say there is more to it than that.

1st, BV has moved us to a defense that doesn't match our talent.
2nd, MS and BV together are much much better than BV and whoever is our pass defense coordinator is now.
3rd, our defense has degenerated into 1 person on the field knowing where the other 10 line up. That is horrid.

Now as far the Johnny/Joe argument:

1. Our overall defensive talent is higher than it was from 2000-2003.
2. That talent level has not converted to meaningful game production at any position other than defensive end. As a matter of a fact, DE along with WR are the only positions throughout Stoops tenure that have consistently provided above average production.
3. So compared with 2001, as far as effectivness -> DE is up, DT is down, LB are way down, secondary is way down

So what do we need to do?

1. I'd suggest we bring in another DC that is good at stopping the pass. Whether this be Mike Stoops or someone else, I think it needs to be done. Can Patton to make room for this guy and give the dude doing the OTs and TEs the entire OL + TEs along with 2 GAs instead of 1. This would leave us with 2 secondary coaches (3 with Bob) to get these guys assignment sound.
2. Build a skeletal 2 deep safety defensive scheme that flexes from more man under to zone under depending on personnel quality (defined as talent + ability to not bust in the scheme). There should be plenty of flexibility within the scheme to adjust to various positional weaknesses/strengths that allow you to get your best playmakers on the field.
3. Move to a more national recruiting stance on defensive backs.

This sounds pretty interesting. I agree that it could work.

JKM as the new DC? I'm for it.

[sooneron]

He doesn't yell enough.

[OUInformant]

Against us? 24 and 21, respectively. Low enough that two of our best offenses ever could have overcome. Redzone play calling had something to do with it... (if you ask some around here)...

Actually, if you're calling out points against the D, 24 & 14.

Had Murray played against Florida and Curtis Lofton not gone to the NFL, we would've won the title in 2008.

Every time I think of Curtis Lofton leaving early, I bang my head against the table.

[pphilfran]

This sounds pretty interesting. I agree that it could work.

JKM as the new DC? I'm for it.

Yeah, but can he recruit?

[Breadburner]

Against us? 24 and 21, respectively. Low enough that two of our best offenses ever could have overcome. Redzone play calling had something to do with it... (if you ask some around here)...

Actually, if you're calling out points against the D, 24 & 14.

Who was the DC...?

[OUInformant]

Yeah, but can he recruit?

He said he was going to recruit nationally. I think so.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

We rode Pelini out of town after one season because his schemes were apparently too complicated for OU. Now we want to ride Martinez out of town for the same thing. Somebody should ask Bob why it always seems to be Pelini or Martinez or the dreaded "execution" of the players while Venebles continues to get a free pass.

Somewhere around here, I posted the ESPNU video of Martinez with Demontre Hearst. In it, he's talking about trips and Demontre's keys in a zone. Now typically in trips, you run patterns that allow you to throw to 3 levels. As a D, which level you want them to try depends on your opponent. If the QB has weak arm strength or one of the receivers runs crappy routes (or has a lot of drops), you gameplan to allow them to throw to that level. In Martinez's terminology, 1 was short, 2 was medium, 3 was deep. Hearst was only playing 1 and 2, but Martinez was "You have to check 3 because if they run a flag it can hurt the D (Deep out)." Hearst was like wha?

Now think about how many reps you have to have to naturally follow 3 routes and position yourself to cover them. We are talking about tens of 1000's of reps to get good at it. And that is defense out of one formation and how many formations do we face in the big 12?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I like your analysis on man-to-man, but, frankly, don't fully agree with your analysis of our talent.

You don't have to take my word for it, ask STEP. Wander over to the NFL websites and see how many Sooner CBs are on rosters/practice teams. Now, think about historically, how many great OU cornerbacks can you remember? Now think about Safeties.

[NormanPride]

Somewhere around here, I posted the ESPNU video of Martinez with Demontre Hearst. In it, he's talking about trips and Demontre's keys in a zone. Now typically in trips, you run patterns that allow you to throw to 3 levels. As a D, which level you want them to try depends on your opponent. If the QB has weak arm strength or one of the receivers runs crappy routes (or has a lot of drops), you gameplan to allow them to throw to that level. In Martinez's terminology, 1 was short, 2 was medium, 3 was deep. Hearst was only playing 1 and 2, but Martinez was "You have to check 3 because if they run a flag it can hurt the D (Deep out)." Hearst was like wha?

Now think about how many reps you have to have to naturally follow 3 routes and position yourself to cover them. We are talking about tens of 1000's of reps to get good at it. And that is defense out of one formation and how many formations do we face in the big 12?

Now, is this a scheme that is too complicated, a DB that isn't catching on quickly enough, or a glut of information and not enough time to absorb it all?

[SoonerSpock]

As the DC at LSU, he won a National Championship with Les Miles. It would be interesting to see how many points were scored against his defensive that year. Nebraska played Michigan today IN Michigan. I shutter to think how many points they would have scored against us. Even though he is the head coach of a 3 loss team, not the defensive coordinator, his defense gives up an average of 24 points a game, scoring an average of 31.45 points a game.

So Bo's defense in the run first B1G conference is allowing 24 p/g and Brent's defense in the high scoring spread offensive conference is allowing 22.3 p/g. Something missing in the logic that Bo would be a better solution.

Not saying there are no problems with our defensive concepts but would question that Bo would be the ultimate solution.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Now, is this a scheme that is too complicated, a DB that isn't catching on quickly enough, or a glut of information and not enough time to absorb it all?

Oh I definitely think it was the fire hose treatment. The problem is that Martinez has to teach these kids thousands of permutations that they have to instinctively know. And he has to do that in the limited as crap time he is allowed to teach them. Man has less total permutations, but is complicated by much more difficult athleticism requirements and technique.

That is why you see a lot of mid-tier programs running cover 4 -> it has the least number of permutations of all zone defenses. Unfortunately it also resembles and plays like a prevent defense so its low risk/low return.

Oh and btw, I think a lot of football programs would pay you to write a VR simulator that would allow them to get in tons and tons of repetitions in a short amount of time.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So Bo's defense in the run first B1G conference is allowing 24 p/g and Brent's defense in the high scoring spread offensive conference is allowing 22.3 p/g. Something missing in the logic that Bo would be a better solution.

Not saying there are no problems with our defensive concepts but would question that Bo would be the ultimate solution.

Bo's biggest asset was talent evaluation both of what he has and high school kids that can play. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he recruited most of LSU's secondary this year. That being said, he didn't recruit to a particular scheme very well. If you notice the 4 kids in his recruiting class here, none of them really were prototypical cover 2 guys.

[ashley]

All teams that have played good spread teams are mad at their secondary coaches.

If we would have had our two starters we would have won.

[StoopTroup]

I always enjoy when folks talk about guys that have these great careers and the end up in the Hall of Fame and all the speeches just go on and on about how they were the best prototypical players that their Coaches had ever seen. :D

[OUInformant]

Does a cover 2 always leave the middle open? How do you combat that? It seems that we've always been gashed right up the middle.

What about an aggressive 3-4, man-to-man cover 1 or 0 scheme? This is my anti-spread binary aggression defense.

[sooneron]

Does a cover 2 always leave the middle open?

Yes, pretty much. I don't know the answers to the other questions.

[mainline13]

Now as far the Johnny/Joe argument:

1. Our overall defensive talent is higher than it was from 2000-2003.
2. That talent level has not converted to meaningful game production at any position other than defensive end. As a matter of a fact, DE along with WR are the only positions throughout Stoops tenure that have consistently provided above average production.
3. So compared with 2001, as far as effectivness -> DE is up, DT is down, LB are way down, secondary is way down



Man, I have learned a ton from you, and a couple of others, just in this one thread. But I had to say that in the bolded statement, I think you should have included QB. If you're going strictly by success in the NFL, maybe not, but even our poor ones tended to overachieve. Except Bomar, but if he hadn't screwed up, who knows.

Otherwise, a big thanks for some of the most cogent posts I've read on-line. Maybe ever.

[StoopTroup]

I maynot always agree with JKM but when I do I drink Dos Equis.

http://www.eatmedaily.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/mimitw-1.jpg

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Man, I have learned a ton from you, and a couple of others, just in this one thread. But I had to say that in the bolded statement, I think you should have included QB. If you're going strictly by success in the NFL, maybe not, but even our poor ones tended to overachieve. Except Bomar, but if he hadn't screwed up, who knows.

Otherwise, a big thanks for some of the most cogent posts I've read on-line. Maybe ever.

This is about consistent year in/year out production. QB has been close, but still has that wonderful year of 2005 where our QB play was horrid (a lot of this was due to having all the misses in recruiting from 2000-2003).

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Does a cover 2 always leave the middle open? How do you combat that? It seems that we've always been gashed right up the middle.

What about an aggressive 3-4, man-to-man cover 1 or 0 scheme? This is my anti-spread binary aggression defense.

Since I don't feel like drawing diagrams, this is the Tampa 2:

http://www.windycitygridiron.com/2009/2/19/764222/the-tampa-2-explained

As you can see, in theory the weakness in the middle should only be present on play-action. In reality its there on a lot more than that because that type of linebacker is hard to find.

Now, Man to Man is always attacked the same way:

1) You get your playmakers the ball before the defender can seal them up. WR screens, slants, interior drags, etc.
2) Option routes - Wes Welker has made a mint running these things
3) Picks/Rubs - routes that cross that accidentally make defenders collide
4) Double Moves - Get them to bite and go long

Now this is a mix of quick hitters and home run balls. However, one difference is that quick hitters in man can be designed for a lot of run after catch. You simply run everyone out of the grass that the crossing route is going to and there is no one there to tackle them. Its why crossing routes tend to have such huge gains in the pros.

Cover 0 vs Cover 1

Cover 0 allows you to cover with a DB instead of a LB upgrading your coverage on their 4th receiver. However, it also increases the attractiveness of certain throws (fades, posts, flags) that are normally considered low probability with any safety help. These are throws that are not timing routes that become purely receiver on defensive back. Remember that in these 1 on 1 engagements the rules HEAVILY favor the offensive player.

Cover 1 eliminates the post route from the above scenario at the cost of downgrading your coverage on individual receivers. Cover 1 is best used when you have an inexperienced QB who is only throwing to one side of the field because you eliminate the amount of area that you have to cover in the 1-2 seconds the ball is in the air.

So, there are several factors that you have to consider when you want to go man.

The 1st is the pass behind the LOS rule. The bubble screen was originally used by FSU to combat Miami's press coverage and you have to be ready for someone to break one of these.
The 2nd is how much consistent pressure can you get with 4 guys.
The 3rd is can your rushers stay in their rush lanes and not let the QB break contain.

When you look at these, #3 is our achilles heel since 2001 when we started upgrading our DL talent. Until we prove that we can be disciplined pass rushers, every semi-mobile QB we face is going to be able to escape the pocket and make our DBs cover for 5+ seconds. Guess what? We are going to be toast.

[cccasooner2]

Since I don't feel like drawing diagrams, this is the Tampa 2:

http://www.windycitygridiron.com/2009/2/19/764222/the-tampa-2-explained

As you can see, in theory the weakness in the middle should only be present on play-action. In reality its there on a lot more than that because that type of linebacker is hard to find.

Now, Man to Man is always attacked the same way:

1) You get your playmakers the ball before the defender can seal them up. WR screens, slants, interior drags, etc.
2) Option routes - Wes Welker has made a mint running these things
3) Picks/Rubs - routes that cross that accidentally make defenders collide
4) Double Moves - Get them to bite and go long

Now this is a mix of quick hitters and home run balls. However, one difference is that quick hitters in man can be designed for a lot of run after catch. You simply run everyone out of the grass that the crossing route is going to and there is no one there to tackle them. Its why crossing routes tend to have such huge gains in the pros.

Cover 0 vs Cover 1

Cover 0 allows you to cover with a DB instead of a LB upgrading your coverage on their 4th receiver. However, it also increases the attractiveness of certain throws (fades, posts, flags) that are normally considered low probability with any safety help. These are throws that are not timing routes that become purely receiver on defensive back. Remember that in these 1 on 1 engagements the rules HEAVILY favor the offensive player.

Cover 1 eliminates the post route from the above scenario at the cost of downgrading your coverage on individual receivers. Cover 1 is best used when you have an inexperienced QB who is only throwing to one side of the field because you eliminate the amount of area that you have to cover in the 1-2 seconds the ball is in the air.

So, there are several factors that you have to consider when you want to go man.

The 1st is the pass behind the LOS rule. The bubble screen was originally used by FSU to combat Miami's press coverage and you have to be ready for someone to break one of these.
The 2nd is how much consistent pressure can you get with 4 guys.
The 3rd is can your rushers stay in their rush lanes and not let the QB break contain.

When you look at these, #3 is our achilles heel since 2001 when we started upgrading our DL talent. Until we prove that we can be disciplined pass rushers, every semi-mobile QB we face is going to be able to escape the pocket and make our DBs cover for 5+ seconds. Guess what? We are going to be toast.


jkm, what was the setup on the 2nd play against BU that was called back? TLew was far over against Wright, released past Javon, for the TD called back.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I don't have a copy of the game because it was blacked out and I watched it on ESPN3.

There were 3 different plays where it was either a blown call from the sidelines or Lewis blew it on the field where he got matched up against a WR and left a safety on the TE/RB. I also think that the Baylor coaching staff picked up on secondary reads and ran formations/plays specifically to fool our secondary. For example, on the 2 flag routes that Harris bit on and got beat on, those routes went a lot farther inside than they normally do. They easily kept with the initial skinny post for 20 yards before they busted them back out to the flag. normally those are 5-10 yards at most.

[cccasooner2]

I don't have a copy of the game because it was blacked out and I watched it on ESPN3.

There were 3 different plays where it was either a blown call from the sidelines or Lewis blew it on the field where he got matched up against a WR and left a safety on the TE/RB. I also think that the Baylor coaching staff picked up on secondary reads and ran formations/plays specifically to fool our secondary. For example, on the 2 flag routes that Harris bit on and got beat on, those routes went a lot farther inside than they normally do. They easily kept with the initial skinny post for 20 yards before they busted them back out to the flag. normally those are 5-10 yards at most.

I have been watching the ESPN3 replay and saw the same thing on the long TD to Reese before the half (where Stoops was chewing Martinez). TLew was covering Reese (inside receiver according to BU roster) then released to Javon when Javon was coming up.

[StoopTroup]

I think we need a bottom line in the thread....

So....do we fire Venables or not?

[cvsooner]

No. We don't. Castiglione, Stoops and Boren would be the ones who'd do the firing. But I doubt it.

[FaninAma]

OU's defense has 2 problems. They do not disguise coverages or blitzes well.

[StoopTroup]

I guess we are finally back to normal then?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I think we need a bottom line in the thread....

So....do we fire Venables or not?

My opinion is that we need some changes on the defensive side of the ball. I don't think they need to be major, but we have some deficiencies in pass defense theory/application that need to be shored up. If we do them this year you can get away with something minor, if we wait til next year, you may have no choice but to blow up the defensive staff.

[StoopTroup]

I don't have a choice now. All I can do is continue to root for my Team and hope that Barry Tramel and Jenni Carlson can get through to Bob. :D

[NormanPride]

Yeah, as much fun as it is to talk Xs and Os, I don't have any say. I don't have season tickets and we know that Joe C doesn't actually pay attention to attendance numbers from the basketball team... I can only hope that Stoops is humble enough to make tough decisions that will help the team. I know he's not a dumb guy and has made positive moves in the past, so I have faith.

We have a successful formula because we continuously win games and have chances to get to the big one. We just need the right combo of no injuries and good student leadership to get it done.

[HAMTTX]

Horse feathers, we have talent and the scheme is correct. It's the intensity. What we saw against FSU beats anyone. However the next week or so Missouri looks like the Miami of old against us. That is what I cannot explain. And apparently our coaches cannot identify. Solve that and we beat anyone. If you have played football and I will assume most of you have. You know the one thing that separates the best teams. It is you must punish your opponent. Not get flagged for stupid penalties, but punish them with aggressive play and very hard hitting. Down after down. You cannot take a play "Off". We do that on occasion and we get burned for it.

[C&CDean]

Horse feathers, we have talent and the scheme is correct. It's the intensity. What we saw against FSU beats anyone. However the next week or so Missouri looks like the Miami of old against us. That is what I cannot explain. And apparently our coaches cannot identify. Solve that and we beat anyone. If you have played football and I will assume most of you have. You know the one thing that separates the best teams. It is you must punish your opponent. Not get flagged for stupid penalties, but punish them with aggressive play and very hard hitting. Down after down. You cannot take a play "Off". We do that on occasion and we get burned for it.

New person,

You do realize about half our team is hurt, right? I won't argue that we need to play with more intensisty, but if the truth be known, we need to play with more intelligence. Just being ready to rip someone's heart out doesn't = winning ball games.

[pphilfran]

New person....lol...

I was never a new person...only a refugee...

[C&CDean]

I'm being patient phil. Very patient...

[pphilfran]

I'm being patient phil. Very patient...

Patience of a Saint!

[C&CDean]

Indeed.

[NormanPride]

Phil, do you go to the tailgates? It is always nice to meet the sane posters.

[pphilfran]

Phil, do you go to the tailgates? It is always nice to meet the sane posters.

Never been to one of the tailgates...too much happening this year to attend a game...next year...

[NormanPride]

Well, don't be a stranger.

Back on topic, who do you think is the next coach we lose? Nobody wants BV because he's not THAT great and he's a terrible interview probably, and Josh is going to stick around for a while. Norvell? I'd hate to lose him considering how well our WRs have been doing under him. Seems like he hits on at least two a year, which is really nice.

[pphilfran]

Novell is a good guess...give him a couple more years...he doesn't stick around anywhere for too long, 5 years at Wisconsin....Josh will stick around and Jay will want to move to greener pastures...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Well, don't be a stranger.

Back on topic, who do you think is the next coach we lose? Nobody wants BV because he's not THAT great and he's a terrible interview probably, and Josh is going to stick around for a while. Norvell? I'd hate to lose him considering how well our WRs have been doing under him. Seems like he hits on at least two a year, which is really nice.

Heh, I didn't realize that Norvell played on those same Iowa teams with Stoops.

[NormanPride]

Nepotism, **** yeah!