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soonercruiser
11/16/2011, 08:51 PM
In America, who is rich?
Who is "poor"?
Can you compare the difference by observing their "possessions"??

Not so, says Bill Whittle!
And, most of the points that he makes are valid.

OkebmhTQN-4

Trophy Husband
11/16/2011, 09:24 PM
There are a lot of quote un quote poor people with I phones, big screen Tv's, cable TV, cars, etc, etc, etc, what they don't have health care because they can't "afford it"

Trophy Husband
11/16/2011, 09:25 PM
what the hell are you doing bringing common sense, facts and logic into the debate. You right wing, tea party nut bag.

soonercruiser
11/16/2011, 10:06 PM
Ah, I've taken C&CDean's heat for a long time now. Even been banned for a while when I called him a very descriptive name.
So, gonna have to do better than "Tea Bagger" to get me riled!
:eagerness:

oudivesherpa
11/16/2011, 10:19 PM
After retiring from a management position in the Enegry Industry after 34 years, I went back to school, got a Masters in Education and teach High School. I am concerned that almost half my students are on free lunch and free breakfast, but they all have the latest I phones and the newest Nikies. It's hard not to be concerned for the students who need a free lunch, but it's equally hard to ignore that many are just playing the system. We could save a lot of taxpayer dollars if we were more prudent in our entitlement programs.

Serge Ibaka
11/16/2011, 10:20 PM
His argument aside: this guy is a total dou*he, and his hair is weird. What's with his part?


"Now, needless to say, this report came under furious attack from guys like Stephen Colbert. . .to make sure statistics like this don't sink in."

Um, if Colbert didn't want these statistic to "sink in," he wouldn't give it space on his nationally-broadcast television show. Holy hell. Those numbers reached more eyes/ears during via The Colbert Report than it ever would have otherwise.

soonercruiser
11/16/2011, 10:23 PM
His argument aside: this guy is a total dou*he, and his hair is weird. What's with his part?

Um, if Colbert didn't want these statistic to "sink in," he wouldn't give it space on his nationally-broadcast television show. Holy hell. Those numbers reached more eyes/ears during via The Colbert Report than it ever would have otherwise.

Colbert either subverts the truth, or makes comedy with the truth!
That is his forte'.

diverdog
11/16/2011, 10:24 PM
In America, who is rich?
Who is "poor"?
Can you compare the difference by observing their "possessions"??

Not so, says Bill Whittle!
And, most of the points that he makes are valid.

OkebmhTQN-4

The report is somewhat misleading in that most HUD/Gov't housing has refrigerators and other amenities. Most of the poor in this country are the elderly and single family households. Without government support these stats would be really bad.

Serge Ibaka
11/16/2011, 10:33 PM
Colbert either subverts the truth, or makes comedy with the truth!
That is his forte'.

Well duh. But the guy's comment about Colbert was still douc*ey. Typical witch-hunty, the media-is-out-to-get-us!!!! rhetoric from the right. Ditto with this gem:


They need the television so that the mainstream media can remind them hourly what a bad country this is.

Frankly, this is just as subversive/comedic as any typical Colbert episode. Also, homie is creepy, and his hair is still stupid.

soonercruiser
11/16/2011, 11:55 PM
After retiring from a management position in the Enegry Industry after 34 years, I went back to school, got a Masters in Education and teach High School. I am concerned that almost half my students are on free lunch and free breakfast, but they all have the latest I phones and the newest Nikies. It's hard not to be concerned for the students who need a free lunch, but it's equally hard to ignore that many are just playing the system. We could save a lot of taxpayer dollars if we were more prudent in our entitlement programs.

Not to worry about the children. The rumor is that some libs are pushing for a hot meal on the taxpayer before they go home too.
(starting in Kal-E-Fo-Knee-A)

soonercruiser
11/16/2011, 11:58 PM
The report is somewhat misleading in that most HUD/Gov't housing has refrigerators and other amenities. Most of the poor in this country are the elderly and single family households. Without government support these stats would be really bad.

GOD forbid they suffer to live without flat screens and the latest iPhone!

diverdog
11/17/2011, 07:15 AM
GOD forbid they suffer to live without flat screens and the latest iPhone!

Cruiser they would be homeless and without food.

cleller
11/17/2011, 08:25 AM
Just as an observation, chronically poor folks are often less intelligent than most. (trying to be diplomatic). This not only helps to lead them into poverty, but it influences some poor decisions. They feel they are in a desperate and hopeless situation, so something like a TV or pair of expensive shoes can momentarily lift them out of that hopeless situation, and help to mask their poverty.

This doesn't mean I condone it, or think the government should keep providing the funds to perpetuate this stuff, just a realization I've come to. I still believe the biggest motivator is having to provide for oneself.

SoonerTerry
11/17/2011, 08:37 AM
Just as an observation, poor folks are often less intelligent than most. .

I've been poor, known alot of poor people and I think this is idiotic. Broke people may be less educated or less sophisticated. But dumber? Broke people don't need to be coddled for being stupid, the just need an oportuniny to learn how to make a good living.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 08:40 AM
Not to worry about the children. The rumor is that some libs are pushing for a hot meal on the taxpayer before they go home too.
(starting in Kal-E-Fo-Knee-A)

They already have it in Memphis, Tn. which just happens to rank 3rd in the country in childhood obesity. You telling me a child that eats lunch at 11:30, can't go 3.5 hours without having to be fed supper? What's next, we give them a take home dinner as well?

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 08:41 AM
I've been poor, known alot of poor people and I think this is idiotic. Broke people may be less educated or less sophisticated. But dumber? Broke people don't need to be coddled for being stupid, the just need an oportuniny to learn how to make a good living.

According to the liberals on this site, they can't do it with out Uncle Obama's help.

cleller
11/17/2011, 08:45 AM
I've been poor, known alot of poor people and I think this is idiotic. Broke people may be less educated or less sophisticated. But dumber? Broke people don't need to be coddled for being stupid, the just need an oportuniny to learn how to make a good living.

Never said all poor people were dumb. If you cannot learn how to make a living with all the free schools, vo-tech's, job corps, and other training programs already in place, you might have some problem with intelligence, though.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 08:46 AM
The report is somewhat misleading in that most HUD/Gov't housing has refrigerators and other amenities. Most of the poor in this country are the elderly and single family households. Without government support these stats would be really bad.

Well, hell I guess if you're too poor, you may just have to do with out a game console, big screen tv, cell phone and a car. That's the whole point, we act as if the poor in this country are living on dirt floors.
I have a friend who lives below what is considered the poverty level, he has 3 kids, a house, a TV and I phone. He receives no food stamps, no wic, not assistance from the state. He works hard, saves his money, and when he has saved enough to purchase a "want" item he does. He takes care of his "needs" items first. And no he doesn't claim the child tax credit because he says he doesn't want any damn help.

That's the problem with alot of these folks, they want to have their "want" items as well as their "needs" items GIVEN to them at others expenses.
Let me ask you liberals on this board. How many of you take part of your paycheck and give it to a fellow employee who doesn't make as much as you do? Drum roll please...............................NONE OF YOU!!

SoonerTerry
11/17/2011, 08:49 AM
.
Let me ask you liberals on this board. How many of you take part of your paycheck and give it to a fellow employee who doesn't make as much as you do? Drum roll please...............................NONE OF YOU!!

the gubment is doin a good enough job of doin this

Ton Loc
11/17/2011, 09:20 AM
That's the problem with alot of these folks, they want to have their "want" items as well as their "needs" items GIVEN to them at others expenses.
Let me ask you liberals on this board. How many of you take part of your paycheck and give it to a fellow employee who doesn't make as much as you do? Drum roll please...............................NONE OF YOU!!

Its not just poor people that can't tell the difference between want and need. Most of the people I know are so overextended that even though they make over a 100k a year, they still live paycheck to paycheck.

It wouldn't take much for them to move from comfortably middle class to poor.

Edit: I was really hoping we were going to play the Rich Man-Poor Man game.

For example - An outdoor shower - Are you incredibly poor or super rich?

Mississippi Sooner
11/17/2011, 09:49 AM
I totally thought Nick Nolte deserved the best actor Emmy.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 10:08 AM
Its not just poor people that can't tell the difference between want and need. Most of the people I know are so overextended that even though they make over a 100k a year, they still live paycheck to paycheck.

Let me play devil's advocate. Let's take two people, one is a college graduate, has a good job, but has over extended himself and is living paycheck to paycheck. He pays his taxes, and total self sufficient.

The other guy has no formal education, works a minimum wage job, doesn't really have a lot of desire and drive outside of making enough money to get by on. Due to his income he pays no taxes, and he receives a child tax credit on his two kids.

Which one is entitled to assistance from the federal government? The guy who has put himself through college, pay his taxes, works hard but has over extended himself?
Or the other guy?

Why do the people that pay the most into the system receive the fewest benefits from the system, yet those who pay nothing into the system, receive all the benefits?

If you applied that logic to any other business be it a sports franchise, a mfg business etc. would that not be a recipe for failure? If you owned a business and you offered the least productive employes all the benefits and none to your productive employees, how long do you think those productive employes would remain productive?

NormanPride
11/17/2011, 11:02 AM
I totally thought Nick Nolte deserved the best actor Emmy.

We should get the government to subsidize Emmys so that all actors can get them, even poor ones that can't find work.

AlboSooner
11/17/2011, 11:16 AM
It a logical fallacy to say that since the poor in America have more than the poor in X third world country, they are not really poor.

NormanPride
11/17/2011, 11:18 AM
Well, depending on the definition of poor, yes.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 12:01 PM
It a logical fallacy to say that since the poor in America have more than the poor in X third world country, they are not really poor.

The left makes the exact same comparative argument when they compare what the rich make and how much "they need" and how much they "should be paying".

Who are you to tell another person how much they should be allowed to keep of the money they earned, because you think they don't need it?

By that logic I can tell some guy living in section 8 housing, receiving food stamps along with other guvment sponsored benefits, he really doesn't need any more help because he doesn't have any expenses.
What does he need the money for if he has no expenses?

Position Limit
11/17/2011, 12:03 PM
i have a question. i keep reading comments from flat earthers about poor people having iphones, flat screen tvs and video games. those possessions that the cul-de-sac society hold so dear. has there been some kind of intrusive study to determine that a large majority of impoverished americans have access to these dear liberties. i mean this talking point is thrown out like its some kind of epidemic among poor people. i'm serious, is it just anecdotal crap that one pulls out of his azz and thows at a wall or has research been done to support this claim?

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 12:10 PM
Well, depending on the definition of poor, yes.

my point was, there are people in this country that have a roof over their head, a car, a cell phone, a big screen tv, they are receiving food stamps, tax refunds and credits on taxes they haven't paid, and yet they're out in the street complaining that the rich are not paying their fair share. They're jealous and every dang one of them would trade places with those evil 1%ers in a hear beat.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 12:11 PM
i have a question. i keep reading comments from flat earthers about poor people having iphones, flat screen tvs and video games. those possessions that the cul-de-sac society hold so dear. has there been some kind of intrusive study to determine that a large majority of impoverished americans have access to these dear liberties. i mean this talking point is thrown out like its some kind of epidemic among poor people. i'm serious, is it just anecdotal crap that one pulls out of his azz and thows at a wall or has research been done to support this claim?

did you bother to watch the video at the top of the page?
I would like to see the research that shows that if the rich paid more in taxes, the poor would be better off?

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 12:13 PM
I sure the hell see alot of the occupy crowd on laptops and cell phones, they have clothes on their back and they look pretty well fed. A large portion of them are attending college, so I guess you should be asking them what the hell their beef is, instead of asking me to provide proof they have an XBOX.

Sooner98
11/17/2011, 12:15 PM
Cruiser they would be homeless and without food.

Nevertheless, they DO have food and shelter. So, why the continual outcry from the left of class envy, and for more and more entitlements?

Position Limit
11/17/2011, 12:25 PM
I sure the hell see alot of the occupy crowd on laptops and cell phones, they have clothes on their back and they look pretty well fed. A large portion of them are attending college, so I guess you should be asking them what the hell their beef is, instead of asking me to provide proof they have an XBOX.

so the occupy crowd is the face of poor people? got it. and one has to to fix into your box of poor to worthy of protest? what's it like to have such a small pecker?

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 12:30 PM
Nevertheless, they DO have food and shelter. So, why the continual outcry from the left of class envy, and for more and more entitlements?

Heaven forbid they actually WORK and EARN what they need. That never figures into the equation with these liberals. It's called living within your means. You make 30k a year and have 3 kids, guess what? You don't get an really nice cell phone, you don't get to drive a 2012 BMW, you don't get to live in a 3500 Sq. Ft. house.

You have to live within your means. You may have to rent a house or apartment, you may have to have a cheapo cell phone with out texting and a data plan. You may have to drive a 2005 Taurus. You may have to have basic cable instead of the super premier family fun pack.

The problem is, folks that can't afford all of their "wants" are mad as hell that some folks can afford them, and now they want those folks to fork over the case to Uncle SAM in hopes some will filter down to them.

Went into 7-11 last week, a lady walks up to the counter with an Iphone in her hand, she plops down several bags of candy, and several liters of pop, she pays for the items with food stamps, then buys 25.00 worth of cigarettes and pays cash.

Those are the types of folks we're talking about.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 12:33 PM
what's it like to have such a small pecker?

you'd need to ask your old lady that one.

Sooner98
11/17/2011, 12:34 PM
It a logical fallacy to say that since the poor in America have more than the poor in X third world country, they are not really poor.

No, in fact it is not a logical fallacy. This is REAL, ACTUAL poverty:

South Africa:

http://delany-making-a-difference.wikispaces.com/file/view/south-africa_poverty.jpg/105482615/south-africa_poverty.jpg

Angola:

http://gbgm-umc.org/umcor/photos/angola/pauljeffrey/2002/kimasinquefelicianaalfonsohomeburned1999byunita.jp g

Sudan:

http://www.disputeabout.eu/dwn/1003/26509en_USC650x488_Darfur_refugee_camp_in_Chad.jpg

India:

http://web.dsbn.edu.on.ca/~derek.fretz/S003CC5A2.6/poverty-in-india.jpg

http://www.world-traveler.eu/travels-adventures-india-Dateien/delhi-india-slums-poverty.jpg

http://www.gundekomiran.com/brusklog/wp-includes/images/slumbywater.jpg

Indonesia:

http://viz.cwrl.utexas.edu/files/NYC78129.jpg

El Salvador:

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lc933irOOK1qegfo8o1_400.jpg

Haiti:

http://www.joyandhopeofhaiti.ca/images/poverty.jpg

http://haitipoverty.org/images/contact/cite_soleil.jpg

Bangladesh:

http://idsn.org/uploads/pics/Bangladesh_for_website.JPG


The "poor" in the United States, instead of being led into class envy by the utterly despicable left, should look at these images and be thankful for the blessings that they do have in this country, including necessities like food and shelter, as well as luxuries like air conditiong, television, computers, etc.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 12:35 PM
so the occupy crowd is the face of poor people? got it. and one has to to fix into your box of poor to worthy of protest?

I never said that, I said I see alto of college student on their ipad, Iphones etc, bitching about how bad they've got it. Your ability to comprehend what you read is as small as the pecker you so desperately seek information on.

badger
11/17/2011, 12:37 PM
After retiring from a management position in the Enegry Industry after 34 years, I went back to school, got a Masters in Education and teach High School. I am concerned that almost half my students are on free lunch and free breakfast, but they all have the latest I phones and the newest Nikies. It's hard not to be concerned for the students who need a free lunch, but it's equally hard to ignore that many are just playing the system. We could save a lot of taxpayer dollars if we were more prudent in our entitlement programs.

I've seen this too and it's a recent phenomenon. When kids stand in line at the food bank or shelter with their parents for a holiday meal or sack of groceries, they have iPods, iPhones, nice clothes and shoes, etc.

My guess is that one of several things is going on:

1- Dad and/or mom recently got laid off, there was a medical emergency in the family, or a sudden change in household income level. The kids still have the gizmos and fashion statements because they were from before the change. It's tough enough already on the kids for them to not get the birthday they're accustomed to, so the parents aren't going to ask them to sell their iPods to pay the electric bill.

2- The family has always been in dire straits, but they have friends and family members who are not, who feel sorry for the kids and gift them things that they know their parents cannot afford to give them. I have a bit of experience with this myself. My brother was a poor PhD student and I had just gotten by first job outta college and could finally afford to give him something nicer than a Barnes and Noble bargain bin thing. I got him an iPod, something he would have never gotten himself, considering his college-related expenses.

3- They're freeloaders. This is the last thing that comes to mind, because the other two are much more plausible given the economy and what I've personally seen and experienced around me.

So, don't get too angry when you see that a poor kid has a nice gift.

Position Limit
11/17/2011, 12:40 PM
Heaven forbid they actually WORK and EARN what they need. That never figures into the equation with these liberals. It's called living within your means. You make 30k a year and have 3 kids, guess what? You don't get an really nice cell phone, you don't get to drive a 2012 BMW, you don't get to live in a 3500 Sq. Ft. house.

You have to live within your means. You may have to rent a house or apartment, you may have to have a cheapo cell phone with out texting and a data plan. You may have to drive a 2005 Taurus. You may have to have basic cable instead of the super premier family fun pack.

The problem is, folks that can't afford all of their "wants" are mad as hell that some folks can afford them, and now they want those folks to fork over the case to Uncle SAM in hopes some will filter down to them.

Went into 7-11 last week, a lady walks up to the counter with an Iphone in her hand, she plops down several bags of candy, and several liters of pop, she pays for the items with food stamps, then buys 25.00 worth of cigarettes and pays cash.

Those are the types of folks we're talking about.

sounds to me like you're envious. you need to come to grips with the fact that your W2 wage earning azz is closer to broke than you deny. you're like some kind of case study for middle america on the verge of being broke as a leg. i see where you got your research from now. 7-11. which location?

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 12:41 PM
No, in fact it is not a logical fallacy. This is REAL, ACTUAL poverty:

South Africa:

http://delany-making-a-difference.wikispaces.com/file/view/south-africa_poverty.jpg/105482615/south-africa_poverty.jpg

Angola:

http://gbgm-umc.org/umcor/photos/angola/pauljeffrey/2002/kimasinquefelicianaalfonsohomeburned1999byunita.jp g

Sudan:

http://www.disputeabout.eu/dwn/1003/26509en_USC650x488_Darfur_refugee_camp_in_Chad.jpg

India:

http://web.dsbn.edu.on.ca/~derek.fretz/S003CC5A2.6/poverty-in-india.jpg

http://api.ning.com/files/HqFFgq2GKAuOGIOm-MS1LdwxXDCaizsJ0JzQqaeD30pG9wBvkRy*GKNwYLO-NPTQZwFwcVMj7H*uQhoo5Qgpv7z7EUyXDUmv/Delhishantytown.jpg

http://www.gundekomiran.com/brusklog/wp-includes/images/slumbywater.jpg

Indonesia:

http://viz.cwrl.utexas.edu/files/NYC78129.jpg

El Salvador:

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lc933irOOK1qegfo8o1_400.jpg

Haiti:

http://www.joyandhopeofhaiti.ca/images/poverty.jpg

http://haitipoverty.org/images/contact/cite_soleil.jpg

Bangladesh:

http://idsn.org/uploads/pics/Bangladesh_for_website.JPG


The "poor" in the United States, instead of being led into class envy by the utterly despicable left, should look at these images and be thankful for the blessings that they do have in this country.

I went to Chicago back in 89, drove by the Cabrini Greens Projects, I wondered why would the federal government build housing and write graffiti all over it, break out all the windows, throw trash all over the grounds, hire thugs to move in and cell druge etc, etc.
Then I realized, the government didn't do any of that, the people that were living there did, the same people that go into the streets and say "look where we have to live, look at the horrible conditions we live in".

I have no sympathy for someone who's given something, tears it up, then bitches about how torn up it is.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 12:43 PM
sounds to me like you're envious. you need to come to grips with the fact that your W2 wage earning azz is closer to broke than you deny. you're like some kind of case study for middle america on the verge of being broke as a leg. i see where you got your research from now. 7-11. which location?

come with something other than insults pal. The same old liberal play book, " i can't win on the merits of my arguments so I'll insult you in hopes that it will give the appearance that your arguments are not valid". Change the play book there lefty, it's BORING.

Position Limit
11/17/2011, 12:44 PM
cute pictures. unfortunately for you they fall short. care to post us some pictures of the ghetto's of detroit, west/north philly, oakland and rural america in your quest to compare apples and oranges.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 12:45 PM
cute pictures. unfortunately for you they fall short. care to post us some pictures of the ghetto's of detroit, west/north philly, oakland and rural america in your quest to compare apples and oranges.

You mean the public housing projects that were destroyed by the very people they were built for. Pfft, fail.

Position Limit
11/17/2011, 12:51 PM
come with something other than insults pal. The same old liberal play book, " i can't win on the merits of my arguments so I'll insult you in hopes that it will give the appearance that your arguments are not valid". Change the play book there lefty, it's BORING.

i've made you feel attacked and insulted? and you insult me with the the brand of lefty liberal? i asked you a couple of questions to help save you from yourself. what research and which 7-11? i lived in chicago and passed by cabrini green many of times and it didnt look torn up to me. but you seem to know the standards and practices of poor and how they should abide so i'll just take your word for it.

WildBlueSooner
11/17/2011, 12:55 PM
I am confused about the argument here...

Rich people are awesome.
Poor people suck.

Ton Loc
11/17/2011, 01:02 PM
I've seen this too and it's a recent phenomenon. When kids stand in line at the food bank or shelter with their parents for a holiday meal or sack of groceries, they have iPods, iPhones, nice clothes and shoes, etc.

My guess is that one of several things is going on:

1- Dad and/or mom recently got laid off, there was a medical emergency in the family, or a sudden change in household income level. The kids still have the gizmos and fashion statements because they were from before the change. It's tough enough already on the kids for them to not get the birthday they're accustomed to, so the parents aren't going to ask them to sell their iPods to pay the electric bill.

2- The family has always been in dire straits, but they have friends and family members who are not, who feel sorry for the kids and gift them things that they know their parents cannot afford to give them. I have a bit of experience with this myself. My brother was a poor PhD student and I had just gotten by first job outta college and could finally afford to give him something nicer than a Barnes and Noble bargain bin thing. I got him an iPod, something he would have never gotten himself, considering his college-related expenses.

3- They're freeloaders. This is the last thing that comes to mind, because the other two are much more plausible given the economy and what I've personally seen and experienced around me.

So, don't get too angry when you see that a poor kid has a nice gift.

Badger - get out of here with your dose of reality. This place will ruin you.

I can re-word those for you.

#1. New Poor
#2. Always Poor
#3. A-holes

Can we please just focus the hate on #3? #1 is just confused and #2 has come to terms with their situation. Plus, #1 and #2 make up the vast majority of poor.

Position Limit
11/17/2011, 01:02 PM
I am confused about the argument here...

Rich people are awesome.
Poor people suck.

i think you got it. that's what i've taken from this abortion of a thread. oh and those not poor seem to be an expert on how the poor should live and what the should purchase or not purchase to meet their standard. get poorer damnit!!!!!!

badger
11/17/2011, 01:45 PM
Badger - get out of here with your dose of reality. This place will ruin you.

I can re-word those for you.

#1. New Poor
#2. Always Poor
#3. A-holes

Can we please just focus the hate on #3? #1 is just confused and #2 has come to terms with their situation. Plus, #1 and #2 make up the vast majority of poor.

:D Without me you all would never get doses of reality... or at least doses of vBookie

Bourbon St Sooner
11/17/2011, 02:11 PM
what's it like to have such a small pecker?

My real pecker may be small, but my internet pecker would make Ron Jeremy cry.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 02:20 PM
i think you got it. that's what i've taken from this abortion of a thread. oh and those not poor seem to be an expert on how the poor should live and what the should purchase or not purchase to meet their standard. get poorer damnit!!!!!!

I ask the same question of you ,what is your definition of poor? At what point does society owe a citizen a living? At what point do you justify taking money from one family, to give to another?

I have no problem with a "poor" person owning an I-Phone, a nice new car, a nice house etc If they can pay for it without dipping into the public coffer, more power to them.
You are trying to camouflage the issue (as liberals always do), the question isn't, who decides what "poor" is. ( even though the left has no problem deciding who the rich are) The question isn't, what should the poor be allowed to have (phones, tv's etc), the question IS, at what point do we as a society hold the poor responsibly for the position they have put themselves in?

Nobody is talking about letting the elderly rot to death, no one is talking about throwing a single mother out in the street to due for herself. We do however need to realize and accept that many of these people are in the situation they are in because of the poor choices they have made and continue to make in their lives.

And yes I'm aware that not all people are poor because they chose to be or because they're lazy, good for nothings. But a hell of a lot of them are, and they want to jump on the same money train as the ones that really do need a hand up.

Trophy Husband
11/17/2011, 02:34 PM
My real pecker may be small, but my internet pecker would make Ron Jeremy cry.

literally or figuratively?

Position Limit
11/17/2011, 03:32 PM
I ask the same question of you ,what is your definition of poor? At what point does society owe a citizen a living? At what point do you justify taking money from one family, to give to another?

I have no problem with a "poor" person owning an I-Phone, a nice new car, a nice house etc If they can pay for it without dipping into the public coffer, more power to them.
You are trying to camouflage the issue (as liberals always do), the question isn't, who decides what "poor" is. ( even though the left has no problem deciding who the rich are) The question isn't, what should the poor be allowed to have (phones, tv's etc), the question IS, at what point do we as a society hold the poor responsibly for the position they have put themselves in?

Nobody is talking about letting the elderly rot to death, no one is talking about throwing a single mother out in the street to due for herself. We do however need to realize and accept that many of these people are in the situation they are in because of the poor choices they have made and continue to make in their lives.

And yes I'm aware that not all people are poor because they chose to be or because they're lazy, good for nothings. But a hell of a lot of them are, and they want to jump on the same money train as the ones that really do need a hand up.


you keep implying i'm liberal. im just calling you out on the sh*t you keep throwing at a wall. i have no idea what level should be considered poor. you want a monetary level? how about you add up all of your liquid assets and subtract your liabilities and tell me what your money level is. i'm willing to wager it would look a lot like most of middle america. broke as a joke. but it seems your agnst is with "poor people" per using food stamps and buying liquor while taxes are paying for that fabulous life of the welfare queen. got any idea of the unintended cost to modern society would be if every poor, sick or mentally ill citizen or non citizen was cut off from what meager assistance they currently recieve? the have nots have existed since the dawn of homo erectus, we as a people have evolved since those simple times. you not so much.
if you were a true conservative instead of a phony, you would save your sanctimony for the corporate welfare queen variety.

anymore questions?

badger
11/17/2011, 03:53 PM
you keep implying i'm liberal.

When he did Madlibs in grade school, he discovered at an early age that "liberal" could be used as a noun or adjective :)

cleller
11/17/2011, 07:20 PM
In response to the pictures of poverty posted earlier. this is a shot of the Seminole Hills housing project in Tulsa. This place is in the heart of the some of the most dangerous areas of the 'hood. The government sank millions into the place several years ago to spruce the place up. Still a hotbed of crime, but look at how decent it looks. This is representative of Tulsa's federally funded housing for the impoverished.
Note the ornate woodwork and satellite dish. Would you choose satellite TV over a savings account?
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/10521923_BG1.jpg

Tulsa_Fireman
11/17/2011, 08:59 PM
In response to the pictures of poverty posted earlier. this is a shot of the Seminole Hills housing project in Tulsa. This place is in the heart of the some of the most dangerous areas of the 'hood. The government sank millions into the place several years ago to spruce the place up. Still a hotbed of crime, but look at how decent it looks. This is representative of Tulsa's federally funded housing for the impoverished.
Note the ornate woodwork and satellite dish. Would you choose satellite TV over a savings account?
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/10521923_BG1.jpg

They would.

It's been my experience that a large volume of the recipients of section 8 and other governmental benefits spend a lot of money on cable/satellite television.

oudivesherpa
11/17/2011, 09:23 PM
I've seen this too and it's a recent phenomenon. When kids stand in line at the food bank or shelter with their parents for a holiday meal or sack of groceries, they have iPods, iPhones, nice clothes and shoes, etc.

My guess is that one of several things is going on:

1- Dad and/or mom recently got laid off, there was a medical emergency in the family, or a sudden change in household income level. The kids still have the gizmos and fashion statements because they were from before the change. It's tough enough already on the kids for them to not get the birthday they're accustomed to, so the parents aren't going to ask them to sell their iPods to pay the electric bill.

2- The family has always been in dire straits, but they have friends and family members who are not, who feel sorry for the kids and gift them things that they know their parents cannot afford to give them. I have a bit of experience with this myself. My brother was a poor PhD student and I had just gotten by first job outta college and could finally afford to give him something nicer than a Barnes and Noble bargain bin thing. I got him an iPod, something he would have never gotten himself, considering his college-related expenses.

3- They're freeloaders. This is the last thing that comes to mind, because the other two are much more plausible given the economy and what I've personally seen and experienced around me.

So, don't get too angry when you see that a poor kid has a nice gift.

Badger, I'm not angry, I'm truly for helping the needy. My problem is that as a Society, we don't do a very good job of determing who is really needy and who is the freeloader. My experience is that about 70 to 80% of the kids on the free lunch program really need it. However, as a society we could have significant savings by cutting out the 20% who are freeloading.

cleller
11/17/2011, 10:13 PM
I'll admit I have a jaded eye toward some of the "poor". I have a scene emblazoned in my mind from sometime in the early 90's at the Comanche Park Apts in Tulsa. For many years this was the absolute worst public housing project in Tulsa. (I was a Tulsa police officer from 1984-2009). I was standing in an apartment during the aftermath of some stupid nonsense, with a security guard who worked at the complex.

Inside the apartment was a gigantic TV, obviously a rental deal, but just gigantic. Hooked up to it was some type of video game system, don't know what it was, but knew it was expensive; also there was a digital camera, and cell phone sitting near the TV. This was at a time when neither was commonplace, and the camera definitely expensive. I was talking with the guard, and neither of us had ANY of these items ourselves. Yet we were there to protect these people who were living there rent-free, and blowing their extra cash on this stuff.

I'd probably have blown it off and forgotten it except for the look of despair and helpless disgust on the security guard's face. This guy was making close to minimum wage, doing dangerous work, and was subjected daily to abuse at the hands and mouths of these welfare cases, while they were living rent free with possessions he had no hope of affording.

AlboSooner
11/18/2011, 02:20 AM
No, in fact it is not a logical fallacy. This is REAL, ACTUAL poverty:

Can't they be both poor, but in two different levels? I didn't say that there is no poverty in third world countries. A more careful examination of my position would reveal that poverty is not restricted by boundaries, or degrees of poverty. You basically made the point which I agree: there are different levels of poor.

[insert ten billion pictures of poverty in america]

soonercruiser
11/18/2011, 01:55 PM
Badger, I'm not angry, I'm truly for helping the needy. My problem is that as a Society, we don't do a very good job of determing who is really needy and who is the freeloader. My experience is that about 70 to 80% of the kids on the free lunch program really need it. However, as a society we could have significant savings by cutting out the 20% who are freeloading.

BINGO!
THIS, ^^^^^^, ladies and "gentlemen" (some) is what the original post/story/and video was about.

America does a very bad job of determing, and defining who the really "poor" and destitute are!
Even the "word" poor has just become a political weapon of the Left!

I could written your post oud.
But, when we are talking about the social programs being the largest chunk of federal obligations, then even your 20% low-ball estimate becomes $$ignificant!

soonercruiser
11/18/2011, 02:02 PM
come with something other than insults pal. The same old liberal play book, " i can't win on the merits of my arguments so I'll insult you in hopes that it will give the appearance that your arguments are not valid". Change the play book there lefty, it's BORING.

It's sooooo Alinskyian!
:uncomfortableness:

Trophy Husband
11/18/2011, 04:44 PM
BINGO!
THIS, ^^^^^^, ladies and "gentlemen" (some) is what the original post/story/and video awas about.

America does a very bad job of determing, and defining who the really "poor" and destitute are!
Even the "word" poor has just become a political weapon of the Left!

I could written your post oud.
But, when we are talking about the social programs being the largest chunk of federal obligations, then even your 20% low-ball estimate becomes $$ignificant!

Maybe if the left put as much effort into weeding out the freeloaders as the do in trying to stick it to the "evil rich", this wouldn't be an issue.

Trophy Husband
11/18/2011, 04:50 PM
Can't they be both poor, but in two different levels? I didn't say that there is no poverty in third world countries. A more careful examination of my position would reveal that poverty is not restricted by boundaries, or degrees of poverty. You basically made the point which I agree: there are different levels of poor.

[insert ten billion pictures of poverty in america]

Yes there are, and not all poor are in need of guvment assistance, some may require a lifestyle change.
I used to work with a woman, her husband was a full time student, and they did not make a lot of money. They ended up buying themselves a home and a new pick up. One day at work she and I were talking and she was lamenting the fact that she be a stay at home mom.
I asked her, "why don't you be a stay at home mom then?", she said "oh I couldn't do that, we'd have to move back into an apartment and we'd have to get rid of our truck and get smaller car".

I thought, what you really mean is "I'd rather have my nice new house and my nice new truck and live beyond my means, than adjust my lifestyle so I could stay home with my daughter.

That was her choice and she was self sufficient, so I had no beef with her having a nice home and a nice car, but I did find it a bit disingenuous when she was going on and on about how she wished she could be a stay at home mom, but just couldn't afford it.

My point is, not everyone that i s poor is "dirt poor". Not every poor person is unable to work, or unable to improve their situation.