Does Alabama And Saban Bend The Scholarship Limit Rules

[FaninAma]

Seems so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Saban

I suspect Karl Childer's program does the same thing. Amazing how the slezoid factor in the SEC is overlooked.

[jumperstop]

This is nothing new...I forget what they called it. Something like Black-shirting although I don't think that's it. Although legal, kinda mean to treat players like this. Didn't they have some "over recruiting" **** a couple of months back too?

[8timechamps]

Here's the portion from wikipedia that is relevant to the allegations:



Oversigning Accusations

2010
WSJ Medical Scholarship Concerns
On September 24th, 2010 2010, theWall Street Journal published an article suggesting the University of Alabama and its head coach, Nick Saban, had encouraging some players to accept medical scholarships in order to make room for incoming scholarship freshmen.
Former Alabama linebacker Chuck Kirschman said "I'm still kind of bitter," and Coach Saban encouraged him to accept the scholarship because of a back problem that Kirschman believes he could have played through. Kirschman said the school offered in the summer of 2009 to pay for his graduate degree in business, an offer he accepted, and that he still gets some of the same perks as players. Kirschman completed his MBA in Finance.
Charles Hoke, a former Alabama offensive lineman, took a medical scholarship in 2008 because of a shoulder problem, said the choice was left entirely up to him and was based on the many conversations he had with the team's doctors and trainers over the course of his junior year.
Jeramie Griffin tore an anterior cruciate ligament in his knee in August of 2009. He said, "I came back in the spring and I was OK." Griffin said that he was surprised football staff told him he had failed a physical. Griffin said, Saban asked him what he wanted to do besides playing football, and that Saban floated the possibility of a medical scholarship and asked if Griffin was interested in student coaching. Griffin said he doesn't contest the results of the physical and said it was "basically my decision" to forgo the rest of his playing career.
Doug Walker, the school's associate athletic director for media relations, said "Decisions about medical disqualifications for student-athletes are made by medical professionals and adhere to the parameters outlined by the NCAA…and the Southeastern Conference." [33]
On September 29th 2010 Coach Saban responded to questions about the Wall Street Journal Article, "We don't make the decision about medicals. I have nothing to do with that. Those are medical decisions made by our medical staff. I think we have one of the finest medical staffs in the country. I don't have any question about the fact every player we have given a medical to, it's been because of the medical opinion of the medical staff," Saban said. "Those guys should not continue to play football because it would put their future in tremendous risk. Those decisions are always made in the best interest of the player. Whether the player agrees with that or not, I can't control. I don't make the decision. They don't make the decision as players. That's why we have a medical staff."[34]

WSJ Transfer Concerns
On November 25, 2010, the Journal reported that several former Alabama players claim Saban and Alabama lied about their reasons for leaving the school.[35] On August 5th, 2009 Saban in a press conference Saban made a statement included was a reference to four players Price Hall, Brandon Fanney, Alonzo Lawrence and Jermaine Preyear. "These guys all did something. It doesn't make them bad people.…These guys didn't do what they were supposed to do here, whether it was for academic reasons or whatever. They're not going to be part of the program."[36] The players told The Wall Street Journal they committed no such violations and that Alabama and Saban had only claimed as much so as to protect the image of their program in the eyes of future recruits.
Prince Hall, a starter and All-American as freshman, had been suspended for the 3rd time during the Spring according to published reports, the last being categorized as indefinite. Brandon Fanney, a 14 game starter from the previous season, had been suspended for rules violations during the Spring. [37]
Preyear, who decided to transfer six months after enrolling during the Spring, said he chose to leave over concerns about playing time. "I don't know any rules I could have broken."
Alonzo Lawrence reasons for transfer were unclear, but according to his high school coach his problems at Alabama "wasn't anything major," and tied it to things like being late to team meetings. Lawrence transferred to Southern Miss before moving on to Mississippi Gulf Coast Community College. [38] [39]
[edit]Saban's Exchange with another Reporter
On April 15th 2008, Saban was asked by reporter Ian Rapoport how he was going to handle the numbers and when does he you start to worry about it? Saban replied "I'm not worried about them. It'll all work out. I mean, the whole thing has a solution to every issue. You don't put yourself in a position where you don't know what's coming." Rapoport respond, "So you're not going to tell us?" to which Saban replied "We know how it has to be managed, and it will be managed. It's none of your business. Aiight? And don't give me this stuff about the fans' need to know, because they don't need to know. Don't even ask. Aiight?"[40]

2011
In early 2011, after National Signing Day, Saban and the University of Alabama again became the subjects of heavy media criticism after they again appeared to have oversigned. When asked about the appearance of being oversigned during his Signing Day press conference, Saban gave a 431-word response[41] in which he denied being oversigned but refused to clarify the situation by explaining how many scholarship players departed the program after the 2010 season.[42] Further raising questions about Saban and Alabama, Birmingham News journalist, Kevin Scarbinsky, revealed a few days after Saban's press conference that in numerous requests by the newspaper for the scholarship numbers of public universities in Alabama, the University of Alabama has been the only one to completely redact scholarship numbers for every sport in which it participates.[43]

[Frozen Sooner]

I fail to see how it's shady to tell a kid who the coaching staff doesn't believe will be able to contribute due to a medical condition that they'll be able to stay on scholarship, or how it benefits Saban to do so instead of just cutting the kid.

[FaninAma]

I fail to see how it's shady to tell a kid who the coaching staff doesn't believe will be able to contribute due to a medical condition that they'll be able to stay on scholarship, or how it benefits Saban to do so instead of just cutting the kid.

Really? I guess not if you totally accept Saban's explanation about the situation and completely ignore the players who dispute his version. Plus refusing to give out numbers of players on scholarship seems to indicate something other than complete forthrightness on the issue.

[8timechamps]

It's not just Saban either, this is apparently happening all over the SEC.

Which, leads me to believe it could be happening in a number of conferences. I've said it before, it's a numbers game. The coaches have X number of scholarships available, and are depending on a kids "verbal commitment" to fill those spots. Given how verbal commitments are meaning less and less these days, the coaches have to have a plan B. It's got to be a difficult process (added on to the already difficult process of recruiting).

With that said, I've never heard of OU doing anything like this. And you'd think it would be made public if it happened. So, maybe it is isolated to just the SEC.

[Frozen Sooner]

Really? I guess not if you totally accept Saban's explanation about the situation and completely ignore the players who dispute his version. Plus refusing to give out numbers of players on scholarship seems to indicate something other than complete forthrightness on the issue.

Really. Reading the article, I quickly counted three players they say took medical scholarships. One thinks he could have played through the pain. Two others say they failed a physical or decided not to play after discussion with the doctors. What, Saban's supposed to keep kids on the 85 man roster who aren't medically cleared when he can put them on a medical scholarship?

Is it shady when Bob Stoops does it?

[allanace16]

It's one of those things that in a way seems self-fulfilling. If you recruit the way Saban (or the SEC in general really, I don't wanna single him particularly out, though everything I've read seems to pin Bama as one of the top offenders) seems to by bringing in more quality guys (and figuring out how to make the #s work later), the likelihood that a guy coming off an injury is going to climb back to the top of the depth chart is pretty small. But how many of these guys would have done so at OU or USC or (insert power here) under their same circumstances but the coaches weren't oversigning? More than at Bama, but probably not too many more. And the same thing somewhat extends to guys that violate team rules, or don't pay attention in film, or don't bust their hump in practice, whatever. Some guys do get it together and make an impact, but I wouldn't call them the majority.

I'm not saying that I condone these practices, because this is still supposed to be amateur football, and students at the university shouldn't be looked at as an expendable commodity like professionals, but given the current athletic climate and the pressure to succeed, especially when we see the depth differences between teams engaging in this kind of thing and teams not, I can see why coaches might feel the pressure to do this kind of thing and cover it up. (I also think this practice was a factor in the powers that be not really considering the SEC a viable conference destination for OU, but that's for a different discussion)

[soonerboomer93]

Really. Reading the article, I quickly counted three players they say took medical scholarships. One thinks he could have played through the pain. Two others say they failed a physical or decided not to play after discussion with the doctors. What, Saban's supposed to keep kids on the 85 man roster who aren't medically cleared when he can put them on a medical scholarship?

Is it shady when Bob Stoops does it?

Of course it's not shady when Stoops does it.

What's wrong with you, either the law school or time in 'Bama is messing with your brain

:D

[FaninAma]

Really. Reading the article, I quickly counted three players they say took medical scholarships. One thinks he could have played through the pain. Two others say they failed a physical or decided not to play after discussion with the doctors. What, Saban's supposed to keep kids on the 85 man roster who aren't medically cleared when he can put them on a medical scholarship?

Is it shady when Bob Stoops does it?

I guess it depends on the prevelance of the practice. It's hard to tell since Alabama seems to not want to share that information even though they are a public institution.

Are you aware of this being reported on with Stoops or brought up as such a concern that the WSj has written about it or he's been asked repeated questions about it by reporters?

I feel there are probably other players with similiar stories as the ones who feel they weren't treated well by Alabama and Saban but aren't willing to speak publically about it. It seems that the medical scholarship is a way to bribe a player who doesn't agree with the action of the coaching staff to not make waves.

Does Alabama have higher turnover of underclass scholars
hip players and more players under either athletic or medical scholarships that other programs? Hard to tell since 'Bama seems reluctant to hand out those numbers for some reason. I am sure their motives for not doing so are completely innocuous and not self-serving.

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm aware of Stoops using medical scholarships on several players who were unable to physically perform before, yes. Whether or not the kid thinks he was able to physically perform is so preposterously irrelevant I don't know why anyone would bother to report it. I mean, 18-22 year old athletes are normally REALLY realistic about their physical abilities and notoriously protective of their future health, right?

The simple fact that the Wall Street Journal chooses to investigate one coach and not the other does not, in itself, make anything either coach does shady.

[FaninAma]

So the WSJ had no basis or reason to choose Alabama as the target of their report? None? It was just chance that they chose Bama to write the article about? They had no background information that would cause them to feel the problem was more prevalent in Tuscaloosa than other programs?

You may be right. It would be interesting to see how the turnover rate in Saban's program compares to Stoops. Do you have alink to the NCAA statistics that would reflect these statistics?

[delhalew]

The kids on medical isn't nearly as bad as the ones that are just shown the door. Were they cut for good reason? Who knows.

[FaninAma]

Here is the full WSJ article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703384204575509901468451306.html

I know OU has handed out some medical scholarships to players who have had a career endng injuries but I don't think it has come near the 12 that Alabama has handed out since 2007.

[FaninAma]

Here's a website that indicates Alabama has a relatively high attrition and oversigning rate.
http://oversigning.com/testing/

[delhalew]

Were 30+29+28+32=85. Nice. Glad Miles got a mention. He's one of the worst.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

With that said, I've never heard of OU doing anything like this. And you'd think it would be made public if it happened. So, maybe it is isolated to just the SEC.

We were never SEC bad, but we did it from 99-2002, meaning we told people who weren't working out to hit the road. We stopped when they changed the way that academic progress worked. To me its more of a factor than star rankings on how good teams can get.

[Frozen Sooner]

So the WSJ had no basis or reason to choose Alabama as the target of their report? None? It was just chance that they chose Bama to write the article about? They had no background information that would cause them to feel the problem was more prevalent in Tuscaloosa than other programs?

No idea whether they do or not. Could it be that Saban's a higher-profile coach than Stoops is, particularly to the NFL crowd?


You may be right. It would be interesting to see how the turnover rate in Saban's program compares to Stoops. Do you have alink to the NCAA statistics that would reflect these statistics?

Nope. All I know is that Stoops has put several kids on medical scholarships, and every time he has people around here have talked about how great it is we were doing so. Which I agree with: it's great that programs put injured kids on medical scholarships, and it's great that the NCAA doesn't make those counters against the 85 cap.

As for the ethics of oversigning...I'm of two minds on that. If you're upfront with kids (and I doubt they are) that they're oversigning and that there may not be a scholarship when everything shakes out, I have no problem with it: whether or not a kid qualifies is pretty far outside a coach's control other than just not offering anyone who's risky (see Trey Metoyer). On the other hand, if a kid turns down a spot at a school that isn't oversigning without knowing that the school he does sign at has him at the #28 spot...I don't like it, and that is shady.

The SEC has implemented voluntary signing limits in the last year or so.

[Sabanball]

Whaaa...whaaaaa....whaaaa...Quit focusing on the Evil Empire known as the SEC.

Saban operates within the rules on schollies, if he didn't he would be gone...Do you really thing otherwise? How much common sense does it take to figure that out?????

[Sooner Cal]

My bet is that the over-signing is mostly attributable to getting extra linemen. That's the position most difficult to project success. Sign an extra 5 and you improve the odds of having guys who develop.

[delhalew]

Whaaa...whaaaaa....whaaaa...Quit focusing on the Evil Empire known as the SEC.

Saban operates within the rules on schollies, if he didn't he would be gone...Do you really thing otherwise? How much common sense does it take to figure that out?????
That's really your response...

[soonerhubs]

I'm not surprised at all by ********* ball's reply. He's no rebut because he knows his hero treats players like toilet paper sheets. Keep on celebrating the screwing over of kids' futures. SEC! SEC!

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Whaaa...whaaaaa....whaaaa...Quit focusing on the Evil Empire known as the SEC.

Saban operates within the rules on schollies, if he didn't he would be gone...Do you really thing otherwise? How much common sense does it take to figure that out?????

My biggest issue with the whole LOI mess is that it 100% favors the school in every way.

It basically does the following:

1. Guarantees that if the kid doesn't attend their school then he can't get any type of financial aid from another member institution unless the original institution releases his from his commitment. They can make all sorts of ridiculous stipulations on this (not transfering in conference, etc)
2. Is non-binding on the school. If a kid signs on the dotted line, the school in no way has to provide them with a scholarship. And even if they do provide them with a scholarship, they can rescend it at any 1/2 year.

In other words, the LOI system is like signing a tenant agreement.

[delhalew]

Didn't a recent NCAA rules commitee introduce a multiyear scollie.

[jkjsooner]

No idea whether they do or not. Could it be that Saban's a higher-profile coach than Stoops is, particularly to the NFL crowd?



Nope. All I know is that Stoops has put several kids on medical scholarships, and every time he has people around here have talked about how great it is we were doing so. Which I agree with: it's great that programs put injured kids on medical scholarships, and it's great that the NCAA doesn't make those counters against the 85 cap.

It sounds great but welcomes abuses. It sounds to me from the article that Saban has abused the process a little. An injury to a player who was never making a contribution or an injury to a player that causes him to no longer be able to make a contribution should not be justification to remove a kid from an athletic scholarship. Just because your ACL tear caused you to lose a couple of tenths off your 40 time does not mean that you can't physically play the game.

I don't know the true story here but it sure sounds like there's some pressure being put on the medical staff. If you don't think a medical professional would cave to pressure when his job requires him to do so then all you have to do is look at the history of the NFL. They had to push independent medical evaluations because of the abuses (which went the other way - guys being cleared to play who should not have been).

That brings up my other point. There needs to be independent evaluations. Given, this doesn't make sense if a school can simply cut a player which they can do today.


As for the ethics of oversigning...I'm of two minds on that. If you're upfront with kids (and I doubt they are) that they're oversigning and that there may not be a scholarship when everything shakes out, I have no problem with it:

I have a problem with it because when a kid signs with a university he is bound by that decision but the university is not. That's a big issue in my book.

The four year scholarship that they're implementing is a good step as long as this is guaranteed AT SIGNING TIME. That way a kid can see that Bama is not offering the guaranteed four year scholarship but TCU is. That gives him more information to make an intelligent decision.

But, then again, once you have that then you need some controls so coaches don't put underperforming players who have the guaranteed scholarships on medical scholarships.

[hornswaggled]

... If you're upfront with kids (and I doubt they are) that they're oversigning and that there may not be a scholarship when everything shakes out, I have no problem with it: ...

This is what makes the difference between understanding the terms of the deal or getting hoodwinked. The school should also commit to help the player find a position at another institution if he doesn't make the team. The other side of the coin is if, during the recruiting process, a coach promises a kid he is going to be a starter (good idea Mack) that is also part of the deal.

[jkjsooner]

Whaaa...whaaaaa....whaaaa...Quit focusing on the Evil Empire known as the SEC.

Saban operates within the rules on schollies, if he didn't he would be gone...Do you really thing otherwise? How much common sense does it take to figure that out?????

Nobody said he was breaking rules. They said he's skirting around the rules and engaging in unethical behavior.

[FaninAma]

Nobody said he was breaking rules. They said he's skirting around the rules and engaging in unethical behavior.

Pretty good summation. Oversigning is not illegal but it is is, IMO, highly unethical especially of you have to engage in creative ways to insure enough attrition to reach your numbers.


Saban has only been at Alabama since 2007 so this practice should just now start reflecting on his graduation/progress rate numbers. BTW, what is LSU's graduation rate?

[LSUdeek]

http://www.nola.com/lsu/index.ssf/2011/10/lsu_football_claims_second-hig.html


Baton Rouge - The LSU football team had the second highest graduation rate in the SEC and well above the national average, according to NCAA data.
LSU posted a score of 77, second only to Vanderbilt's 86 in the NCAA Graduation Success Rate data released on Tuesday. Florida was the only other school above 70 with a 76. The national average is 67, which was LSU's score last year. LSU improved from 51 to 54 to 60 during the three years prior to that.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

from your article lsudeek

The scores are based on the four incoming classes from 2001-2002 through 2004-05. The NCAA began compiling these figures starting with the freshman class of 1995.


2001 Unknown, 2002 26, 2003 28, 2004 26, 2005 13

That 2005 number is key because it means you were pinned hard against the 85 limit and allows those kids to make it through (we were the same way in 2004). The problem is that since 2005 you have been at or over the limit every single year which means that graduation rate is going to be hurting unless your transfers graduate from another school.

[NormanPride]

I thought you didn't get credit for transfers or jucos? This **** is so backwards and stupid...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I thought you didn't get credit for transfers or jucos? This **** is so backwards and stupid...

This may have changed at the time, but they broke off a shaft in any school that took a transfer or a juco. You could never get positive credit for that players graduation, but you could take a hit if they didn't graduate on time. 3 year jucos (with 2 years to play) were pretty much a no-no since they had to graduate that year or they didn't count.

[FaninAma]

This may have changed at the time, but they broke off a shaft in any school that took a transfer or a juco. You could never get positive credit for that players graduation, but you could take a hit if they didn't graduate on time. 3 year jucos (with 2 years to play) were pretty much a no-no since they had to graduate that year or they didn't count.

Agreed. Most of the graduation rates for the BCS football programs I have seen quoted and touted in USA Today and on various message boards are tabulated from gradution data from the 2000 thru 2003 recruiting classes(ie. before Miles went ot LSU and long before Saban went to Alabama.....although the LSU data would reflect Saban's last few years there.)

The bottom line is that oversigning and attrition will kill your graduation rates so I suspect both LSU and Alabama will take some hits in more recent tabulations. I think its another reason Stoops signs fewer JUCO's than he used to and does not go the greyshirt route. JMO

BTW, is there and accurate count of OU players who have been converted from player to medical scholarship status?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

No idea. We've had a lot of linemen take it (jeff lebby, vader's son, eric thunander, etc) most have been back issues.

Oh and for clarity we've had 1 medical who ended up transfering and starting for another D1 school -> Bobby Klink (Anemia)

[SoonerKnight]

I'm aware of Stoops using medical scholarships on several players who were unable to physically perform before, yes. Whether or not the kid thinks he was able to physically perform is so preposterously irrelevant I don't know why anyone would bother to report it. I mean, 18-22 year old athletes are normally REALLY realistic about their physical abilities and notoriously protective of their future health, right?

The simple fact that the Wall Street Journal chooses to investigate one coach and not the other does not, in itself, make anything either coach does shady.

Perhaps they investigated Saban and there was an article on Les Miles for over recruiting because they are the biggest offenders of this. In the article I read about Miles it specifically said that other conferences such as Big X and Pac-12 had rulse that governed over recruiting. For example they can recruit 4 over and that's it. I'm not sure about the Big (XII) but it would seem the conference with the biggest issue with this is the SEC!! I would suspect that is why they chose to write about them. Sorry I don't have a link to the other article about LSU and Miles but they did mention in that article that they would release players for rule infractions when the players claimed nothing happened or they would tell a recruit your going to black shirt this year and they would transfer because if they blackshirt they have to play for their schooling. Then Miles would go out publicly an say the same sort of stuff that Saban has done!! Obviously there is a theme here. Eventually they will break a few rules and it will all come out in the wash!!

[delhalew]

I saw an inside sports type program on oversigning a year or more ago. At the time Les Miles had the most questionable incidents of disappearing players that hadn't developed.

This **** is no secret.

[Tear Down This Wall]

It's not against NCAA rules and we do it from time to time as well.

Players who are given those offers to schools such as Bama, LSU, OU, etc. have other scholarship offers on the table. No one forces them to sign with Bama, LSU, OU, etc. They know the score when they sign up to grayshirt. They could sign somewhere else if they're worried about it.

We're not talking about schools here that sign players with just one college option. If a kid wants to go to one of these schools bad enough to sign with a class with 25+ signees, that's a risk he knowingly takes. If he doesn't want to take it, he can sign with Baylor, South Florida, or some other lesser school that has offered him a scholarship.

[Frozen Sooner]

Perhaps they investigated Saban and there was an article on Les Miles for over recruiting because they are the biggest offenders of this. In the article I read about Miles it specifically said that other conferences such as Big X and Pac-12 had rulse that governed over recruiting. For example they can recruit 4 over and that's it. I'm not sure about the Big (XII) but it would seem the conference with the biggest issue with this is the SEC!! I would suspect that is why they chose to write about them. Sorry I don't have a link to the other article about LSU and Miles but they did mention in that article that they would release players for rule infractions when the players claimed nothing happened or they would tell a recruit your going to black shirt this year and they would transfer because if they blackshirt they have to play for their schooling. Then Miles would go out publicly an say the same sort of stuff that Saban has done!! Obviously there is a theme here. Eventually they will break a few rules and it will all come out in the wash!!

What does Nebraska's defense have to do with this?

The SEC has rules about oversigning now. If I recall correctly, they can only oversign 3 now.

[SoonerAtKU]

The four year scholarship option is going to mean zero to the LSUs and Bamas of the world. They're going to offer the same thing they do now. They'll call it a four year deal, but if you encourage a kid to transfer or accept a medical scholarship, then those four years just magically became one or two, with no repercussions on the school. Now, if they made it a four year block that didn't free up for any reason, THAT would be a disincentive. I'm in favor of making scholarships 5 years and increasing the number to 90, but not allowing those exemptions to grant you back a slot for someone new. That way you have more flexibility within the player's career to take a year or two to develop or recover from injuries, but not to game the system by "encouraging" players from leaving the team.

You get what you pick, and what picks you, and you suffer the consequences of poor selection. It wouldn't necessarily be the best thing for OU, either, but it's more equitable for the players, which is nice.