Good Job Florida !!!!!!!

[okie52]

Florida Students Born To Undocumented Immigrants Sue For In-State Tuition

College students in Florida who were born in America to undocumented immigrants say they're getting financially shafted by the state.

A class-action lawsuit filed by the Southern Poverty Law Center on behalf of the students, claims that these students are unfairly forced to pay out-of-state tuition, because their parents are undocumented. The suit notes that these students are U.S. Citizens.

"These policies attack our most fundamental American values by punishing children for the actions of their parents,” Jerri Katzerman, director of educational advocacy for the SPLC said in a news release. “It's an unconscionable attack on students from immigrant families that more than triples the cost of a college education."

The lawsuit alleges that policies of the Florida State Board of Education and the Florida Board of Governors treat students who are residents of Florida as non-residents because the students’ parents are undocumented.

The price difference is significant. The SPLC notes that the cost per term in the four-year bachelor’s degree programs at Miami Dade College is $1,400 for residents and $6,246 for non-residents.

"I can't afford that. So that's why I was like, I need to speak up, because I can't pay for this amount on money, you know?" 19-year-old sophomore Wendy Ruiz tells NPR. "And I should be in-state, not out-of-state."

Ruiz is one of the lead plaintiffs in the lawsuit.

The Miami Herald reports that a Jacksonville state lawmaker has introduced a bill that would grant in-state tuition to Americans born to undocumented immigrants. The paper reached out to officials at the Florida Department of Education and the Board of Governors, but they declined comment, because the litigation is pending.

CORRECTION:A previous headline misstated the group represented in the lawsuit. The action involves Florida students who were born in America to undocumented immigrants. The students are American citizens.


:D

[Midtowner]

So Florida is treating U.S. citizens as second-class citizens because their parents are illegal?

Well, that oughta go down in flames.

[jumperstop]

Everyone from Florida is a second class citizen...

[okie52]

President Obama spearheaded a failed attempt to pass the DREAM Act, which grants legal status to the children of illegal immigrants. Twelve states have laws granting in-state tuition to some illegal immigrants brought to the U.S. as children, according to the National Conference of State Legislators.

Meanwhile, U.S. Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa, has led a campaign to eliminate the practice of granting automatic citizenship to children of illegal immigrants born on U.S. soil. Four states — Florida, Colorado, Georgia and Indiana — ban all illegal immigrants, including those brought to the U.S. as children, from receiving in-state tuition rates.

Florida's policy is unique because it takes the step of denying in-state tuition to U.S.-born children whose parents are illegal immigrants. Officials with the Florida Department of Education, which oversees community colleges, and the State University System declined comment.

Florida law requires that residency be established for adults, or dependent children, before granting in-state tuition rates.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/story/2011-11-02/florida-lawsuit-education-in-state-tuition-illegal-immigrants/51050858/1?csp=34news

[KantoSooner]

If these kids were US citizens and residents of Florida prior to applying for admission, I can't see that Florida has any legal basis to deny them in-state tuition. Once they're 'in' you can't label them as 'out' without some grounds to do so. And crimes on the part of the parents are not such grounds.

[okie52]

I don't think it will stand but what Florida is apparently saying is these "kids' haven't established state residency and are therefore ineligible.

It is good for a laugh and the longer it causes harships for illegals and/or their offspring the better.

[badger]

If these kids were US citizens and residents of Florida prior to applying for admission, I can't see that Florida has any legal basis to deny them in-state tuition. Once they're 'in' you can't label them as 'out' without some grounds to do so. And crimes on the part of the parents are not such grounds.

There actually is a similar clause in FAFSA that Florida might be able to apply here.

FAFSA doesn't give federal financial aid to the families of tax protesters. By virtue of not being citizens of the United States, the parents may in fact have been avoiding taxes during their undocumented streak and thus, the children could be classifed the same way FAFSA does for tax protesting families --- ineligible for aid.

Students that apply for FAFSA can't get the necessary income documentation to get aid if their parents don't pay their fair share of taxes. As such, I wonder if these students couldn't get the documentation to prove that their familes were residents of Florida and thus, no in-state tuition.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm saying that the state of Florida might have precedent here because of policies like the FAFSA tax protester one.


Please note that tax protesters are not eligible for federal student aid; if you are required to file a federal income tax return but don't, the college will insist on your filing an income tax return before they will disburse any aid. Likewise, if an error is found on your income tax return, the school will require you to file an amended income tax return. Federal law prohibits a college from disbursing aid until conflicting information is resolved.


If your parents refuse to file the forms because they haven't filed a tax return or owe taxes, there isn't anything you can do. The federal government doesn't provide financial aid to families of tax evaders and tax protesters. If you have evidence of your parents tax evasion, you could consider turning them in to the IRS, since the IRS does provide a reward for such information. (If your parents are sufficiently wealthy, the reward could pay for your education!)

[okie52]

There actually is a similar clause in FAFSA that Florida might be able to apply here.

FAFSA doesn't give federal financial aid to the families of tax protesters. By virtue of not being citizens of the United States, the parents may in fact have been avoiding taxes during their undocumented streak and thus, the children could be classifed the same way FAFSA does for tax protesting families --- ineligible for aid.

Students that apply for FAFSA can't get the necessary income documentation to get aid if their parents don't pay their fair share of taxes. As such, I wonder if these students couldn't get the documentation to prove that their familes were residents of Florida and thus, no in-state tuition.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm saying that the state of Florida might have precedent here because of policies like the FAFSA tax protester one.

Good post Badger.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Agreed. Just the same as anyone from an out of state H.S. trying to get in-state tuition. If you can't prove you (and by extension your parents as likely you are not emancipated) were domiciled in Oklahoma prior to HS graduation, you are pretty much out of luck in trying to get declared an in state resident for tuition purposes.

[badger]

The more I think about it, the more I think this comes down to documentation to prove that you are a Florida resident, rather than just targeting the children of undocumented migrants.

Say you have a Florida birth certificate. Doesn't matter. I have a Wisconsin birth certificate, yet because my parents are now residents of Oklahoma, I could get in-state tuition my final years at OU.

Say you graduated from a Florida high school. Doesn't matter. You need to have established residency for a certain period of time (it was a year for me here I think before I didn't need a tuition waiver via a Native American scholarship program to get in-state tuition at OU) and simply graduating from a high school does not mean that you were in the state for a certain period of time.

Say you have a mailing address. Those change frequently and don't establish anything.

Say you have documented relatives that live in Florida. Doesn't matter, it has to be your parents or guardians.

Say you, yourself, have a paying job in Florida and you, yourself, have paid taxes on said income. DOES. NOT. MATTER.

The best thing these kids can do is... join the military and get emancipated from their undocumented parents. Military is the easiest way to get emancipated from everything I've read. It means that your parents can no longer claim you as dependents and you are no longer subjected to their income levels when determining FAFSA and other education-related aid.

The hard thing about being the kids of undocumented is... no documents. So no proof that they were residents of the state.

Makes you wonder how many people that aren't Texas residents are getting in-state tuition at UT... take that, whorns!:mack:

[okie52]

The more I think about it, the more I think this comes down to documentation to prove that you are a Florida resident, rather than just targeting the children of undocumented migrants.

Say you have a Florida birth certificate. Doesn't matter. I have a Wisconsin birth certificate, yet because my parents are now residents of Oklahoma, I could get in-state tuition my final years at OU.

Say you graduated from a Florida high school. Doesn't matter. You need to have established residency for a certain period of time (it was a year for me here I think before I didn't need a tuition waiver via a Native American scholarship program to get in-state tuition at OU) and simply graduating from a high school does not mean that you were in the state for a certain period of time.

Say you have a mailing address. Those change frequently and don't establish anything.

Say you have documented relatives that live in Florida. Doesn't matter, it has to be your parents or guardians.

Say you, yourself, have a paying job in Florida and you, yourself, have paid taxes on said income. DOES. NOT. MATTER.

The best thing these kids can do is... join the military and get emancipated from their undocumented parents. Military is the easiest way to get emancipated from everything I've read. It means that your parents can no longer claim you as dependents and you are no longer subjected to their income levels when determining FAFSA and other education-related aid.

The hard thing about being the kids of undocumented is... no documents. So no proof that they were residents of the state.

Makes you wonder how many people that aren't Texas residents are getting in-state tuition at UT... take that, whorns!:mack:

Evidently a situation supported by Perry.

[KantoSooner]

It is good for a laugh and the longer it causes harships for illegals and/or their offspring the better.

I think we're all agreed that the issue will turn on the status of the kids as Florida residents and whether they are emancipated or still dependents.

that said, presuming the kids are emancipated and are residents and otherwise law abiding, why the joy at things to cause them grief?

when I look at our military, we have an inordinate percentage of hispanics in uniform. Some who are not even citizens (yes, you can join the US military if you're not a US citizen). They seem to me to pulling their weight.

I think we need a bit more discretion in dealing with illegals. Especially considering that one driver is our assinine immigration system (which can take literally more than 10 years to say 'yes' or 'no').

If we're really serious about illegal immigration, the one and only real solution is to use everify and then punish the crap out of people who hire illegals. Job pool dries up, illegals stay home. QED.

But we're not, so we'll keep up this sort of Mickey Mouse bull**** to harrass innocent kids. Only a DC Pol could possibly think of this as a 'solution'.

[badger]

Evidently a situation supported by Perry.

That's why I wonder. One state allows in-state, another doesn't to children of undocumented immigrants. How does one prove residency if one has very few support documents from the parents/guardians?

Then again, this is a state that admits the top 10 percent of every graduating class to their state universities with very few limitations (just the space issues at the biggest schools). Not saying there aren't already ways to abuse the Texas higher ed system, hehe Hook em

[badger]

that said, presuming the kids are emancipated and are residents and otherwise law abiding, why the joy at things to cause them grief?

I have no joy in seeing educational opportunities denied to those that cannot afford it, but country of origin of the parents isn't the only obstacle when it comes to those who have the best education and those that don't.

If I was top quarterback, I'd be able to go to any school in the country for free.

If I had a percent ACT/SAT score, I'd be able to go to any school in the country for free.

If my parents were wealthy enough, a donation to any school in the country would guarantee admittance there.

If I was a child genius or virtuoso or whatever... admission to any college in the country for free.

Alas, none of that was meant to be for the badger. And so, had to limit my options to what was available to me. That's what these kids here are going to have to do, because I don't think this lawsuit is going to be successful because of the precedent FAFSA has established.

[okie52]

I think we're all agreed that the issue will turn on the status of the kids as Florida residents and whether they are emancipated or still dependents.

that said, presuming the kids are emancipated and are residents and otherwise law abiding, why the joy at things to cause them grief?

when I look at our military, we have an inordinate percentage of hispanics in uniform. Some who are not even citizens (yes, you can join the US military if you're not a US citizen). They seem to me to pulling their weight.

I think we need a bit more discretion in dealing with illegals. Especially considering that one driver is our assinine immigration system (which can take literally more than 10 years to say 'yes' or 'no').

If we're really serious about illegal immigration, the one and only real solution is to use everify and then punish the crap out of people who hire illegals. Job pool dries up, illegals stay home. QED.

But we're not, so we'll keep up this sort of Mickey Mouse bull**** to harrass innocent kids. Only a DC Pol could possibly think of this as a 'solution'.

No argument from me about the chickensh*t illegal immigration enforcement in this country. And it could be done very effectively and eliminate most of the illegals currently in this country.
The feds often force the states to take action by the lack of any coherent policy and fight the states that try to seek one. The states have to take every opening they see just to hope to reduce illegal immigration.

I doubt very few anti illegal immigration supporters see this as a "solution" but are just happy to see states fighting the PC crowd that pushes the entitlements of illegals on population. I shed no tears for the "innocents" that have been thrust on the American population by their parents, politicians, and employers. There are few consequences for illegal immigrants and I am glad to see anything that might add to their discomfort...because that is all it amounts to in the absence of any real enforcement.

I still always look forward to Cinco de Mayo and the illegals demanding their rights.

[yermom]

we aren't talking about illegals. they are citizens. it's not like they chose to be born here

[okie52]

we aren't talking about illegals. they are citizens. it's not like they chose to be born here

Then all they have to do is prove their state residency like everyone else....is that too much to ask?

[badger]

Then all they have to do is prove their state residency like everyone else....is that too much to ask?

Yeah, that's the big sticking point.

And it's not like every state institution doesn't demand proof of residency to get in-state tuition from students, because it means less money for the same butt in the desk as an outta stater paying thousands more.

I've heard that some Cali schools (like Berkeley) actually are trying to get more outta state students just so they can increase revenue somehow some way... as you can imagine, this discovery was followed by Berkeley protesting :D

[yermom]

Then all they have to do is prove their state residency like everyone else....is that too much to ask?

graduating from a Florida school should be plenty for that

[okie52]

graduating from a Florida school should be plenty for that

Evidently not...particularly if you are a dependent child/minor. Some states have 2 year residency requirements.

[East Coast Bias]

Geez, and where are all the internet lawyers that hang out here when you need them?

[Serge Ibaka]

It is good for a laugh and the longer it causes harships for illegals and/or their offspring the better.

Holy cow. What a miserable existence you must lead.

[okie52]

Holy cow. What a miserable existence you must lead.

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af24/okie54/hsipaniccrying.jpg

[okie52]

Yeah, that's the big sticking point.

And it's not like every state institution doesn't demand proof of residency to get in-state tuition from students, because it means less money for the same butt in the desk as an outta stater paying thousands more.

I've heard that some Cali schools (like Berkeley) actually are trying to get more outta state students just so they can increase revenue somehow some way... as you can imagine, this discovery was followed by Berkeley protesting :D

Money, it's a gas.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

In California, any student who attended a California high school the last three years prior to graduation is granted in-state tuition. Doesn't matter if the parents live in California or not. For example, if you live in Edmond and send your kids to a boarding school in California for So, Jr, and Sr years, the kids qualify - even though Edmond residents are not legal residents of California.

I just don't know how Florida is checking all the parents' documents.

[okie52]

In California, any student who attended a California high school the last three years prior to graduation is granted in-state tuition. Doesn't matter if the parents live in California or not. For example, if you live in Edmond and send your kids to a boarding school in California for So, Jr, and Sr years, the kids qualify - even though Edmond residents are not legal residents of California.

I just don't know how Florida is checking all the parents' documents.

And that is probably true for legal or illegal students....makes perfect sense in California.

[sappstuf]

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af24/okie54/hsipaniccrying.jpg

Don't you mean..

http://struckbyenlightning.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/crying-indian1.jpg

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I guess maybe I should feel a tad guilty since I got 9 years of in-state tuition at OU, on top of 12 years of free public school education, and then moved to California.

Maybe the discount should be conditional on working in-state afterward.

[SicEmBaylor]

Everyone from Florida is a second class citizen...
I was born in Florida *******. ;)

[okie52]

Don't you mean..

http://struckbyenlightning.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/crying-indian1.jpg

Nah, we injuns are happy Okies All that casino and oil money keeps the tribe happy. We
Have free healthcare too.

[SicEmBaylor]

I look at this two different ways:

Under current law, these kids absolutely have a case. Regardless of their parents, they are full fledged citizens of the United States and entitled to all the rights and prviliges thereof.

HOWEVER, these are Florida benefits for the citizens of Florida. Whether they are United States citizens should be irrelevant. Florida should have the right to decide who is considered a citizen of the state of Florida. Looked at another way, this should be treated no different than if these kids were from Montana. Of course that isn't how the law sees it, but that's how it ought to be.

[SicEmBaylor]

And you all can take my word for it because I was born in Pinellas County and we all know the political acumen of people from Pinellas County is off the chart! A more politically informed and astute citizenry you will not find anywhere else.

[soonercruiser]

They need the $$ to pay for all the AARP bennies!
:eagerness:

[soonercruiser]

Agree.
The "immigration system" is at fault, and needs to be reworked!
I believe that Boooosh tried during his Pres.

[SicEmBaylor]

Agree.
The "immigration system" is at fault, and needs to be reworked!
I believe that Boooosh tried during his Pres.
"BOOOOSH" tried to grant blanket amnesty while loosening the the rules for those wanting to enter the country. You can call that "reworking" but I call it "national suicide." Booooosh's actions, had he succeeded, would have been impeachable.

The only solution to the immigration problem is to completely end it. Draw a cold hard line in the sand and say,"no more." End American imperialism by bringing ALL of our troops abroad back home, close global bases, and post troops at the border with 'shoot to kill' orders.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

And you all can take my word for it because I was born in Pinellas County and we all know the political acumen of people from Pinellas County is off the chart! A more politically informed and astute citizenry you will not find anywhere else.

SicEm, I worked and lived in Pinellas County, I knew Pinellas County, Pinellas County was a friend of mine. SicEm, you're no Pinellas County.

[soonercruiser]

No thinkie Emperor Obama agree with second idea!

[diverdog]

"BOOOOSH" tried to grant blanket amnesty while loosening the the rules for those wanting to enter the country. You can call that "reworking" but I call it "national suicide." Booooosh's actions, had he succeeded, would have been impeachable.

The only solution to the immigration problem is to completely end it. Draw a cold hard line in the sand and say,"no more." End American imperialism by bringing ALL of our troops abroad back home, close global bases, and post troops at the border with 'shoot to kill' orders.

Sicem:

That would be an incredibly stupid policy to stop immigration altogether. We need engineers and highly educated people and lots of them want to come to the US or stay here after graduation. Lots of folks in Silicone Valley want green cards automatically granted to foreign kids who have highly sought after degrees to be allowed to stay in the US and work. Without this labor force and the innovation that is brought in from this type of labor we are doomed to be a second rate power. Additionally, who is going to pick our fruits and vegetables? The immigration program needs provisions for guest workers. Yes we need to control our borders but we need the labor.

[Sooner5030]

an option would be to take the state funding out of college ed and charge everyone out-of state. But once everyone knew the true costs of college we'd have a bunch more plumbers & A/C techs instead of excess JDs roaming the earth for billable hours.

Not a great idea...but I like to play DA and provide some perspective on all the "free" stuff folks fight for.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

In California, any student who attended a California high school the last three years prior to graduation is granted in-state tuition. Doesn't matter if the parents live in California or not. For example, if you live in Edmond and send your kids to a boarding school in California for So, Jr, and Sr years, the kids qualify - even though Edmond residents are not legal residents of California.

I just don't know how Florida is checking all the parents' documents.

This is one more reason why CA the financial mess it is in...

[Midtowner]

Then all they have to do is prove their state residency like everyone else....is that too much to ask?

The method of proof for state residency presents an arbitrary hurdle for them to overcome. The bottom line is that the equal protection clause requires that there be at least a rational basis to discriminate against one classification versus another, or if the distinction is national origin (or that of their parents), then there needs to be a compelling state interest. Neither exists here. The Constitution requires that people who are similarly situated be treated alike.

Plyer vs Doe is pretty close to on point.

[badger]

I guess maybe I should feel a tad guilty since I got 9 years of in-state tuition at OU, on top of 12 years of free public school education, and then moved to California.

Maybe the discount should be conditional on working in-state afterward.

It does make me sad to see so many OU kids from the state of Oklahoma get OHLAP and other state aid programs like in-state tuition and then move to Dallas, move to California, move to the east coast, etc. for higher paying jobs and such. I remember OU students speaking at the Capitol about the funding of higher ed needing to be higher, then them all admitting to the media that they were leaving the state after graduation. Umm... ok then, why are we investing in this, again?

If the in-state tuition thing ever does get abolished, I would like to see a "work-in-state-and-get-debt-forgiven" plan to replace it. You'd get the difference in what you would have paid for in-state tuition back after you work and live in Oklahoma for a given period of time (like two years) and you'd be contributing to the future of our state via taxes and other stuff.

:D Plus, you'd still have the option to go elsewhere to get your lower taxes, higher paying jobs or whatever... but the state of Oklahoma wouldn't have had as much of an investment in you in the first place.

[okie52]

The method of proof for state residency presents an arbitrary hurdle for them to overcome. The bottom line is that the equal protection clause requires that there be at least a rational basis to discriminate against one classification versus another, or if the distinction is national origin (or that of their parents), then there needs to be a compelling state interest. Neither exists here. The Constitution requires that people who are similarly situated be treated alike.

Plyer vs Doe is pretty close to on point.

I don't know what Florida's requirements are to prove residency so I don't know if they are arbitrary. If the requirement is made for all applicants that would seem nondiscriminatory.

I doubt it will stand, unfortunately, but I do appreciate most barriers that are placed in the paths of illegals and/or their offspring rather than the imbecilic approach of the Dream Act which hopefully will never see the light of day.

[Midtowner]

The offspring of illegal aliens are citizens. They are due the same rights as everyone else. Creating a permanent underclass serves no one's best interests. Don't worry. There will always be an immigrant around to mow your lawn and clean your house.

[okie52]

The offspring of illegal aliens are citizens. They are due the same rights as everyone else. Creating a permanent underclass serves no one's best interests. Don't worry. There will always be an immigrant around to mow your lawn and clean your house.

These "citizens" are subject to the same requirements as other citizens unless we want to create a permanent class of "entitled". Illegal immigration creates the permanent underclass not laws or regulations that seek to deter it.

Obviously I am not worried about the illegals (immigrants for those that don't recognize the difference) being around to mow my lawn as much as you and some others are. I'll be happy to see teenagers doing the job like they did in the "good ole days". (I put that in there just for you.)

[KantoSooner]

Looks to me like these children of illegals have studied and gotten the grades to be admitted. Setting aside arguments over their parentage, would you rather treat them as full-on citizens or the shallow-end-of-the-gene-pool crop aimlessly wandering the WalMart parking lot on a typical day?

I think it would be amusing to have a citizenship test for people at the age of say, 20. Simple math, science and civics type stuff. Fail and be forever barred from voting. If we could find someplace to take such folks, maybe we could trade for some SE Asians or S Americans with fire and drive. Probably improve our country a hundred fold.

[soonercoop1]

The offspring of illegal aliens are citizens. They are due the same rights as everyone else. Creating a permanent underclass serves no one's best interests. Don't worry. There will always be an immigrant around to mow your lawn and clean your house.

Not really...The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868 to protect the rights of native-born Black Americans, whose rights were being denied as recently-freed slaves. Never ever was intended to be used for anchor babies of illegals...

[SicEmBaylor]

Not really...The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868 to protect the rights of native-born Black Americans, whose rights were being denied as recently-freed slaves. Never ever was intended to be used for anchor babies of illegals...I would use the term "ratified" pretty loosely.

[yermom]

Looks to me like these children of illegals have studied and gotten the grades to be admitted. Setting aside arguments over their parentage, would you rather treat them as full-on citizens or the shallow-end-of-the-gene-pool crop aimlessly wandering the WalMart parking lot on a typical day?

I think it would be amusing to have a citizenship test for people at the age of say, 20. Simple math, science and civics type stuff. Fail and be forever barred from voting. If we could find someplace to take such folks, maybe we could trade for some SE Asians or S Americans with fire and drive. Probably improve our country a hundred fold.

you are so racist

[SicEmBaylor]

I think it would be amusing to have a citizenship test for people at the age of say, 20. Simple math, science and civics type stuff. Fail and be forever barred from voting.

I've been advocating precisely this not only on this forum but everywhere else for a very very long time. A basic citizenship test should absolutely be required before gaining the privilege to vote. In addition, the voting age should be raised to 21.

[yermom]

it should be in the ballot box every four years...

[badger]

I've been advocating precisely this not only on this forum but everywhere else for a very very long time. A basic citizenship test should absolutely be required before gaining the privilege to vote. In addition, the voting age should be raised to 21.

Main reason I don't care about having additional voting requirements: So few registered voters vote anyway.

[soonercoop1]

I've been advocating precisely this not only on this forum but everywhere else for a very very long time. A basic citizenship test should absolutely be required before gaining the privilege to vote. In addition, the voting age should be raised to 21.

At the very least take the same citizenship test given to new legal immigrants...unfortunately that would remove about half the Dems voting base...:D

[Trophy Husband]

So Florida is treating U.S. citizens as second-class citizens because their parents are illegal?

Well, that oughta go down in flames.

That is complete BS, if you love the illegals so much, why don't you open your doors to them and welcome them into your home.

[Trophy Husband]

The offspring of illegal aliens are citizens. They are due the same rights as everyone else. Creating a permanent underclass serves no one's best interests. Don't worry. There will always be an immigrant around to mow your lawn and clean your house.

Or we could secure our boarders, and greatly reduce the influx of illegals into our country. Oh no we couldn't do that, we are a country of immigrants. Gee I don't remember anyone saying "we're a country of illegal immigrants", they tend to leave that word out.

[Ton Loc]

Just another situation that common sense would provide the answer.

You're a citizen? Check
You graduated from a Florida High School? Check
Congradulations - In state tuition granted.

[Trophy Husband]

Just another situation that common sense would provide the answer.

You're a citizen? Check
You graduated from a Florida High School? Check
Congradulations - In state tuition granted.

well if I'm born in Oklahoma through no fault of my own and am forced to live there through no fault of my own, when I turn 18, why can't I attend college in Florida and receive in state tuition rates?

[Midtowner]

Not really...The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868 to protect the rights of native-born Black Americans, whose rights were being denied as recently-freed slaves. Never ever was intended to be used for anchor babies of illegals...

I guess if you want to read into the intent, that might be what was intended, but that's not what the actual text reads, and that's not how the law has been interpreted by every court that's interpreted it since 1868. You are free to inhabit your little fantasy world where precedent, the legislature and the courts mean nothing, but out here in the real world, if your'e born in the U.S., you're a citizen, end of story.

[Midtowner]

Or we could secure our boarders, and greatly reduce the influx of illegals into our country. Oh no we couldn't do that, we are a country of immigrants. Gee I don't remember anyone saying "we're a country of illegal immigrants", they tend to leave that word out.

It's kind of your M.O. to miss the point of the thread and then make totally irrelevant comments and assumptions which have nothing to do with anything, isn't it?

This thread isn't about illegal immigrants. It's about citizens who are not treated equally by Florida law for residency requirements.

[okie52]

Just another situation that common sense would provide the answer.

You're a citizen? Check
You graduated from a Florida High School? Check
Congradulations - In state tuition granted.

If common sense was the standard then they wouldn't be here in the first place.

[Trophy Husband]

It's kind of your M.O. to miss the point of the thread and then make totally irrelevant comments and assumptions which have nothing to do with anything, isn't it?

This thread isn't about illegal immigrants. It's about citizens who are not treated equally by Florida law for residency requirements.

Well then why did you bring the word "illegal" into this debate in your first reply on page one of this thread?
You aint too bright is ya?

[Trophy Husband]

I guess by this logic, a child born to a mother who's in prison, should now be considered and inmate and therefor be treated accordingly.

[Trophy Husband]

Hey Midtown, how much extra do you voluntarily pay each year in taxes to support these new "citizens"? I'll answer that for you, NONE!!!!!!

[okie52]

It's kind of your M.O. to miss the point of the thread and then make totally irrelevant comments and assumptions which have nothing to do with anything, isn't it?

This thread isn't about illegal immigrants. It's about citizens who are not treated equally by Florida law for residency requirements.

Are you saying that these "citizens" are being required to provide documentation not required of other Florida residents?

[Midtowner]

Well then why did you bring the word "illegal" into this debate in your first reply on page one of this thread?
You aint too bright is ya?

Perhaps because the plaintiffs are the children of illegal aliens, but are citizens according to the law? The law does not allow for discrimination based upon who your parents were. There you go again...missing the point.

[Midtowner]

Hey Midtown, how much extra do you voluntarily pay each year in taxes to support these new "citizens"? I'll answer that for you, NONE!!!!!!

I'm hoping they can go to college to get jobs and pay their own taxes. You?

[Midtowner]

Are you saying that these "citizens" are being required to provide documentation not required of other Florida residents?

They are not "citizens," they are citizens. Just like you and me. They are different except as mentioned above, in your fantasy world where case law, literal meaning and over a century of action mean nothing.

What happened here is that Florida, in an administrative action, without the legislature decided to start interpreting residency requirements as having to prove that parents of citizens attending university were citizens. It's discrimination because it makes a classification based upon the parents' immigration status. Basically, it's a national origin test, or it still requires a rational basis. In Plyer v. Doe, Texas decided to impose the same sort of restrictions on students attending public school. The SCOTUS struck down the law saying that it lacked a rational basis. This case is too similar not to go the same way.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Why do you love illegals and the children of illegals so much? If their parents thought so much of them, they would have taken the time to document themselves and become citizen's or become permanent residents. So many illegals in this country will cause turmoil and the answer is not to give them a free pass.

[Trophy Husband]

I'm hoping they can go to college to get jobs and pay their own taxes. You? So who should pay for their education? Who should pay for their healthcare? Who should pay for their housing?
Their parents damn sure wont make enough money to do so. I have 4 kids of my own, if it's all the same to you, I'd rather dedicate my resources to them, rather than foot the bill for a bunch of border hoppers and their offspring.

[Trophy Husband]

Why do you love illegals and the children of illegals so much? If their parents thought so much of them, they would have taken the time to document themselves and become citizen's or become permanent residents. So many illegals in this country will cause turmoil and the answer is not to give them a free pass.

Because he thinks he sounds caring and enlightened when he takes up a cause like this.

[Trophy Husband]

I'm hoping they can go to college to get jobs and pay their own taxes. You?

Again, how much extra do you voluntarily pay in taxes to help fund programs for these new "citizens"?

[Midtowner]

Why do you love illegals and the children of illegals so much?

I just want every citizen to be equal under the law. I don't give two ****s about illegals, but their children are citizens and have exactly the same rights that you and I do.


If their parents thought so much of them, they would have taken the time to document themselves and become citizen's or become permanent residents.

Perhaps they didn't have the means? I can tell you that if I had to live in a corrupt hellhole like Chihuahua and economic and material freedom was just an incredibly risky and expensive trip across an unsecured border away, I'd probably jump that border post haste to mow lawns for many times what I could make at home. I'd love to be able to have children there so that they could live the American dream. I think that'd be a hell of a testament of love as compared to remaining in aforementioned corrupt hellhole. I don't think there's a question of whether being in the U.S. is the best thing for these kids individually. It definitely is. I also don't see how it's particularly relevant to the quest of whether citizens of the United States should be treated equally regardless of who their parents are.


So many illegals in this country will cause turmoil and the answer is not to give them a free pass.

Great. You miss the point just like trophy husband. This isn't about illegal aliens. This is about citizens.

[Midtowner]

So who should pay for their education? Who should pay for their healthcare? Who should pay for their housing?
Their parents damn sure wont make enough money to do so. I have 4 kids of my own, if it's all the same to you, I'd rather dedicate my resources to them, rather than foot the bill for a bunch of border hoppers and their offspring.

"Border hoppers"? Go burn a cross.

As far as their education, healthcare, etc., we should pay exactly what we pay for every other citizen's benefits. We're talking about citizens here. And many citizens (maybe most) don't pay into the system what they receive. Why should these people (children, by the way) be treated any differently? Is it best to set up a permanent underclass based upon who your parents were? Maybe a caste system? Or is it better to give everyone an opportunity for economic prosperity?

[Trophy Husband]

I just want every citizen to be equal under the law. I don't give two ****s about illegals, but their children are citizens and have exactly the same rights that you and I do.



Perhaps they didn't have the means? I can tell you that if I had to live in a corrupt hellhole like Chihuahua and economic and material freedom was just an incredibly risky and expensive trip across an unsecured border away, I'd probably jump that border post haste to mow lawns for many times what I could make at home. I'd love to be able to have children there so that they could live the American dream. I think that'd be a hell of a testament of love as compared to remaining in aforementioned corrupt hellhole. I don't think there's a question of whether being in the U.S. is the best thing for these kids individually. It definitely is. I also don't see how it's particularly relevant to the quest of whether citizens of the United States should be treated equally regardless of who their parents are.



Great. You miss the point just like trophy husband. This isn't about illegal aliens. This is about citizens.

ever heard of cause and effect? Didn't think so.

[Midtowner]

ever heard of cause and effect? Didn't think so.

I don't care how citizens are born. I care that they are citizens. You want to discriminate based upon who someone was born to. You actually want to defend the 1 state out of 50 which discriminates in this way. Under our Constitution, which you probably profess to be a fan of, I'm telling you that my legal spider sense tells me that this distinction is going down in flames. Your argument is to spout a bunch of hate about illegal immigrants which has no bearing whatsoever on the conversation.

Riddle me this: If you are in favor of assimilating immigrants, do you think it's better for them to stay in their ghettos, doing manual labor, belonging to gangs, doing and selling drugs, or is it better that they go to college and end up with good middle class jobs? How's that for some cause and effect?

[Trophy Husband]

"Border hoppers"? Go burn a cross.

As far as their education, healthcare, etc., we should pay exactly what we pay for every other citizen's benefits. We're talking about citizens here. And many citizens (maybe most) don't pay into the system what they receive. Why should these people (children, by the way) be treated any differently? Is it best to set up a permanent underclass based upon who your parents were? Maybe a caste system? Or is it better to give everyone an opportunity for economic prosperity?

You just stated my point for me "many citizens don't pay into the system".
So please explain how adding more to that group, benefits anyone? You also left out one very important fact, of the "many" you mention 99.9% are not illegal immigrants. Guys like you slay me, you champion the cause of the ones that are a drain on this society, and you condemn the people that work hard, make lots of money and are the reason our economic engine runs.

[Midtowner]

You just stated my point for me "many citizens don't pay into the system". So please explain how adding more to that group, benefits anyone?

We're not talking about adding to that group. These folks are already there. And is a college education more or less likely to move them out of that group? I'll bet that's another one of my questions you'll ignore.


You also left out one very important fact, of the "many" you mention 99.9% are not illegal immigrants. Guys like you slay me, you champion the cause of the ones that are a drain on this society, and you condemn the people that work hard, make lots of money and are the reason our economic engine runs.

Where did you get that number? 99.9% of whom? Those who receive more in tax benefits than what they pay in? Oh, I'd say that number's probably a lot bigger than .01%, which is why Florida's interpretation of residency flies in the face of reason. You'd think they'd want more folks predisposed to generational poverty to be able to attend college to break that cycle.

And how am I condemning anyone? Sure, I'll condemn your blatant xenophobia and borderline racism, but I don't condemn hardworking folks.

And with 4 kids and the free money typically associated with 4 kids, I'll go even money that you receive more in tax benefits than you pay into the system, and it's quite likely that you're a drain on the system.

[Ton Loc]

If common sense was the standard then they wouldn't be here in the first place.

I don't get it.

This isn't an argument about illegal immigrants. Its about citizens of the US. This law/rule affects all citizens, not just a certain subset you feel the need to label and condemn. I'm not sure what is threatening anyone here. If you don't live in Florida and you aren't paying for them then it doesn't affect you.

[Trophy Husband]

We're not talking about adding to that group. These folks are already there. And is a college education more or less likely to move them out of that group? I'll bet that's another one of my questions you'll ignore.



Where did you get that number? 99.9% of whom? Those who receive more in tax benefits than what they pay in? Oh, I'd say that number's probably a lot bigger than .01%, which is why Florida's interpretation of residency flies in the face of reason. You'd think they'd want more folks predisposed to generational poverty to be able to attend college to break that cycle.

And how am I condemning anyone? Sure, I'll condemn your blatant xenophobia and borderline racism, but I don't condemn hardworking folks.

And with 4 kids and the free money typically associated with 4 kids, I'll go even money that you receive more in tax benefits than you pay into the system, and it's quite likely that you're a drain on the system.

Go ahead and make blind assumptions about me, that doesn't strengthen your argument one bit. Typical liberal trick, "I can't out articulate you, so I'll insult you." The whole premise of this thread is how children of illegal immigrants should be treated in regards to paying instate tuition, yes? So, why do you want to keep taking the "illegal immigrants" part out of the equation?
I can promise you what you and your liberal ilk will be lobbying for next. Making any child of any illegal immigrant a US citizen, because it's not their fault their parents came here illegally , so why should we hold what their parents did, against them?

You never did answer my question! How can allowing more people into the system who, can't, wont or don't pay into the system, make that system better? That's another area you refuse to address.
According to your logic, the more citizens we have receiving benefits from the fed guvment, the more none contributors we have, the better off we'll be. There is no way around that logic, you've painted yourself into a corner.
Now embarrass yourself by attempting to double talk your way out of it.

[Trophy Husband]

I don't get it.

This isn't an argument about illegal immigrants. Its about citizens of the US. This law/rule affects all citizens, not just a certain subset you feel the need to label and condemn. I'm not sure what is threatening anyone here. If you don't live in Florida and you aren't paying for them then it doesn't affect you.

You're right, you don't get it.

[okie52]

They are not "citizens," they are citizens. Just like you and me. They are different except as mentioned above, in your fantasy world where case law, literal meaning and over a century of action mean nothing.

What happened here is that Florida, in an administrative action, without the legislature decided to start interpreting residency requirements as having to prove that parents of citizens attending university were citizens. It's discrimination because it makes a classification based upon the parents' immigration status. Basically, it's a national origin test, or it still requires a rational basis. In Plyer v. Doe, Texas decided to impose the same sort of restrictions on students attending public school. The SCOTUS struck down the law saying that it lacked a rational basis. This case is too similar not to go the same way.

LOL. I got turned down for a student loan while at OU because my parents made too much money...no consideration for them having 4 kids in college at the same time. If these "dependent citizens" can't provide documentation that is sufficient for Florida and instate tuition requirements that's just too bad. And, as I have already stated, I don't expect this to hold up but I do enjoy every minute it complicates the lives of illegals and their offsprings.

[okie52]

I don't get it.

This isn't an argument about illegal immigrants. Its about citizens of the US. This law/rule affects all citizens, not just a certain subset you feel the need to label and condemn. I'm not sure what is threatening anyone here. If you don't live in Florida and you aren't paying for them then it doesn't affect you.

12,000,000 to 30,000,000 people here illegally is what is threatening. Their offspring are a byproduct of the parents illicit behavior.

Had the border been secure none of these vagabonds would be here now.

[Trophy Husband]

12,000,000 to 30,000,000 people here illegally is what is threatening. Their offspring are a byproduct of the parents illicit behavior.

Had the border been secure none of these vagabonds would be here now.

Bravo!!

[Trophy Husband]

According to Midtown, the more guvment dependent "citizens" the better. That is the only direction his logic can go in. For him to now attempt to acknowledge that the more self sufficient citizens are, the better off we will be, would fly directly in the face of his argument. He's painted himself into a corner and he knows it.

[Ton Loc]

12,000,000 to 30,000,000 people here illegally is what is threatening. Their offspring are a byproduct of the parents illicit behavior.

Had the border been secure none of these vagabonds would be here now.

Deem it whatever you would, but the citizens who are trying to go to college are the ones who are trying to better their situation and end up earning more and paying more taxes. This rule is penalizing children (citizens) for the faults of their parents. This does not apply only to children born to illegal immigrants, but to any child who has parents that can't get their crap together.

[Trophy Husband]

Deem it whatever you would, but the citizens who are trying to go to college are the ones who are trying to better their situation and end up earning more and paying more taxes. This rule is penalizing children (citizens) for the faults of their parents. This does not apply only to children born to illegal immigrants, but to any child who has parents that can't get their crap together.

so now people who illegally sneak into this country are the same as others who "can't get their crap together". Fine, kick all the illegals out of the country, if they have family here that are here legally and they want to take on the raising of their US born offspring, have at it. Otherwise they all go. Then when they get back to Mexico and "get their crap together", they can come back legally, reclaim their children and live happily every after as a legal US citizen.

[Trophy Husband]

oh Mr. Ton, just who's going to foot the bill for the millions of new citizens born of illegal immigrants, the majority of which live well below the poverty line? You do realize the more money they suck out of me, the less I have to take care of my family.

[okie52]

Deem it whatever you would, but the citizens who are trying to go to college are the ones who are trying to better their situation and end up earning more and paying more taxes. This rule is penalizing children (citizens) for the faults of their parents. This does not apply only to children born to illegal immigrants, but to any child who has parents that can't get their crap together.

Yes, evidently the residency requirements are not only directed to children of illegals but to any person that can't prove his/her residency to Florida's satisfaction hence it really isn't discriminatory at all.

He11, the illegals for the most part are just trying to improve their situation so their cause is no less noble than their "citizen" kids, which isn't noble at all. Most people are trying to improve their lot in life but that shouldn't be at others expense.

But tune in on Cinco de Mayo and watch the illegals demand their rights. A moving experience for sure.

[Midtowner]

Go ahead and make blind assumptions about me, that doesn't strengthen your argument one bit.

It does if you're a hypocrite, which I strongly suspect. What tax bracket ya in?


Typical liberal trick, "I can't out articulate you, so I'll insult you." The whole premise of this thread is how children of illegal immigrants should be treated in regards to paying instate tuition, yes? So, why do you want to keep taking the "illegal immigrants" part out of the equation?

Because they're not part of the equation. We're talking about legal citizens. You might not like that a bunch of wetbacks are citizens, but they are. Deal. Go burn a cross.


I can promise you what you and your liberal ilk will be lobbying for next. Making any child of any illegal immigrant a US citizen, because it's not their fault their parents came here illegally , so why should we hold what their parents did, against them?

That's not what the Constitution says. I don't really care about that. Just about enforcing the Constitution.


You never did answer my question! How can allowing more people into the system who, can't, wont or don't pay into the system, make that system better? That's another area you refuse to address.

I am paying into that system and I am hoping that these kids will be able to pay it forward. Poverty does us no favors.


According to your logic, the more citizens we have receiving benefits from the fed guvment, the more none contributors we have, the better off we'll be. There is no way around that logic, you've painted yourself into a corner.
Now embarrass yourself by attempting to double talk your way out of it.

Depends on the benefits of course. In this case, no double talk needed. The children of poor immigrants are going to college. That is a good thing. Worth every penny.

[okie52]

I am paying into that system and I am hoping that these kids will be able to pay it forward. Poverty does us no favors.

Nor does encouraging illegal immigration which acts like the Dream Act absolutely do.


Depends on the benefits of course. In this case, no double talk needed. The children of poor immigrants are going to college. That is a good thing. Worth every penny.

See above. It is a horrible thing. Even in your fantasy world you should know the difference between illegal immigrant and immigrant yet you can hardly say it. Just a PC thing for you??.

[Trophy Husband]

Go burn a cross.

Go murder a baby.



It does if you're a hypocrite, which I strongly suspect. What tax bracket ya in?

Again, you make an assumption with no facts to back it.


That's not what the Constitution says. I don't really care about that. Just about enforcing the Constitution.

Please provide me with the part of the constitution that states an individual can be forced to buy a product. You're only worried about enforcing parts of the constitution.


Depends on the benefits of course. In this case, no double talk needed. The children of poor immigrants are going to college. That is a good thing. Worth every penny.

Please provide some statistics to back this claim, otherwise it's mindless banter.



I am paying into that system and I am hoping that these kids will be able to pay it forward. Poverty does us no favors.

Yet you support poverty by you willingness to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants, most of which live in poverty. Most of which give birth to children and bring them into poverty. Make up your mind skippy.

I don't believe you're paying into the system, what tax bracket ya in there Jr.?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

LOL. I got turned down for a student loan while at OU because my parents made too much money...no consideration for them having 4 kids in college at the same time.

Now you're on both sides of the issue of subsidies. Why should families who have no college-bound members subsidize the loans (and discount in-state tuition rates) of families with college-bound members?

4 kids really? Your parents were breeders? No way your property taxes covered the expense of 4 kids' public schooling. Only the first two born should be citizens, don't you think, Okie? Anything over two is a burden on the rest of us.

[Serge Ibaka]

Had the border been secure none of these vagabonds would be here now.

I SAY BUILD A 20 FOOT TALL, 2000 MILE LONG FENCE. AT'LL STOP EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!11




lol. Just Kidding. Border Security is an impossibility (cute buzz-word though).

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/sanjoaquinsooner/Picture216.jpg

This is my friend Azucena - which means "white lily" in Spanish. I met her last time I visited Mexico.

Here she is contemplating migration to Florida for in-state tuition.

[Midtowner]

Again, you make an assumption with no facts to back it.

And yet you haven't mentioned that you make enough to actually pay taxes in. So you are a leach?


Please provide me with the part of the constitution that states an individual can be forced to buy a product. You're only worried about enforcing parts of the constitution.

The interstate commerce clause. Are you retarded?


Please provide some statistics to back this claim, otherwise it's mindless banter.

This whole thread is about Florida discriminating against people who want to go to college. Again... are you retarded?


Yet you support poverty by you willingness to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants, most of which live in poverty. Most of which give birth to children and bring them into poverty. Make up your mind skippy.

And I'm glad when those kids go to college. Yet you'd deny them the opportunity. Are you retarded?


I don't believe you're paying into the system, what tax bracket ya in there Jr.?

Just over 100K for the household income. No kids. Definitely supporting you and yours.

[SicEmBaylor]

I SAY BUILD A 20 FOOT TALL, 2000 MILE LONG FENCE. AT'LL STOP EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

No, it won't. The full force and might of the US military on the border with "shoot to kill" orders will definitely decrease the problem though.

[cleller]

I SAY BUILD A 20 FOOT TALL, 2000 MILE LONG FENCE. AT'LL STOP EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!11




lol. Just Kidding. Border Security is an impossibility (cute buzz-word though).


Border Security could be made very easy, Americans just don't have the stomach for it. Or the proper mindset in the judicial system.
Just as the OWS street types can claim the immigrants are a big part of the prosperity of the country, they are also part of the reason for the divergence of wealth in the country. If you actually consider it, you can see the reasons. Do I have to explain?
One example. If the illegals were not doing all this manual labor here, who would? Would those wages be higher? Would our government receive more in income taxes?

[okie52]

Now you're on both sides of the issue of subsidies. Why should families who have no college-bound members subsidize the loans (and discount in-state tuition rates) of families with college-bound members?

4 kids really? Your parents were breeders? No way your property taxes covered the expense of 4 kids' public schooling. Only the first two born should be citizens, don't you think, Okie? Anything over two is a burden on the rest of us.

Yes my parents along with the rest of their generation were breeders. Ignorance has a
price and all the baby boomers are now coming home to roost in SS and Medicare.


Now you want to repeat the process with illegal ignorant breeders. Doesn't make much
sense does it?


And I didn't get that loan so I had to lay out semesters to work on oil rigs to pay my way

[okie52]

I SAY BUILD A 20 FOOT TALL, 2000 MILE LONG FENCE. AT'LL STOP EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!11




lol. Just Kidding. Border Security is an impossibility (cute buzz-word though).

Will you run through landmines? I can see you have thought this through.

[okie52]

No, it won't. The full force and might of the US military on the border with "shoot to kill" orders will definitely decrease the problem though.

I'd be happy with drones and landmines.....and catapults.

[Sooner5030]

did not read all 5 pages. Usually these thingies can be resolved by showing proof of state property/income taxes paid by the parents for the previous three years. Regardless of citizenship. If you're a Legal Permanent Resident and have paid the minimum number of years towards the general fund (state income/sales/or property) that subsidizes the university then you usually qualify for in state tuition rates.

Of course I didn't read the article either.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Yes my parents along with the rest of their generation were breeders. Ignorance has a
price and all the baby boomers are now coming home to roost in SS and Medicare.


Now you want to repeat the process with illegal ignorant breeders. Doesn't make much
sense does it?


And I didn't get that loan so I had to lay out semesters to work on oil rigs to pay my way

For the tuition part, you mean to pay about 25% of your way, right? Back in the babyboomer college days, in-state tuition paid about that much with the taxpayers footing most of the bill.

Should families without college-bound members subsidize families with college-bound members?

[cleller]

Should families without college-bound members subsidize families with college-bound members?

Which brings us right back to: Should families who establish and reside in a state legally subsidize families who do not?

State taxes have always been set up for the state as a whole. No family fully utilizes all the schools, roads, fire stations, museums, airports, flood control, recreation facilities, etc. They are they for the good of the state as a whole, paid for by its residents. Most states largely thru income taxes-- that it is very hard to determine if illegals lawfully pay.

[Serge Ibaka]

Will you run through landmines? I can see you have thought this through.

Yeah, Landmines on the American border. That's a sound and thoughtful idea...

At any rate, if you look up information about Operation Gatekeeper in Southern California: increased border security actually increased the illegal population in Southern California; it backfired. For poor Mexicans (and other Latin Americans), the need to get into the States was just as high, but it was so much more difficult to get here (paying coyotes, finding more difficult routes, etc) that illegal immigrants tended to settle in the U.S. in stead of hopping the border back and forth.

Stop deluding yourself that this issue can be fixed so simply--it is just what happens when the 3rd world borders the 1st world.

I'll say it again: I am thankful that God loves me so much that he allowed me to be born a white male in America to educated parents. Thanks a lot, big guy!

[cleller]

I'll say it again: I am thankful that God loves me so much that he allowed me to be born a white male in America to educated parents. Thanks a lot, big guy!

I'll say it again, too. God did not choose your parents, or make them educated. They did that. They probably sacrificed, and saved a lot along the way, and their parents, too. Most likely you are privileged by the work and sweat or a lot of ancestors that built this country from scratch.

[Serge Ibaka]

I'll say it again, too. God did not choose your parents, or make them educated. They did that. They probably sacrificed, and saved a lot along the way, and their parents, too. You are privileged by the work and sweat or a lot of ancestors that built this country from scratch.

And that's great. Thanks ancestors!

Since I didn't choose any of this though (my ancestors or their work ethic), the sentiment is the same. Am I better because I'm lucky?

[cleller]

And that's great. Thanks ancestors!

Since I didn't choose any of this though (my ancestors or their work ethic), the sentiment is the same. Am I better because I'm lucky?

The fact that you are better off is by design. You are a beneficiary of the work and sacrifice of others. It is NOT luck. Your ancestors probably thought you'd appreciate it, and enrich this country. If you are too guilt ridden to accept it, you could always donate your funds to agencies that help immigrants, or get on a bus for Tijuana, and start anew.

[badger]

State taxes have always been set up for the state as a whole. No family fully utilizes all the schools, roads, fire stations, museums, airports, flood control, recreation facilities, etc. They are they for the good of the state as a whole, paid for by its residents. Most states largely thru income taxes-- that it is very hard to determine if illegals lawfully pay.

Since this is technically a Florida discussion, remember the reason why so many celebrities and pro athletes "reside" in Florida: No income tax.

[okie52]

For the tuition part, you mean to pay about 25% of your way, right? Back in the babyboomer college days, in-state tuition paid about that much with the taxpayers footing most of the bill.

Should families without college-bound members subsidize families with college-bound members?

I don't want to confuse you. I support school funding (elementary through college)
by taxes. I don't support illegals or their offspring receiving any benefits whatsoever.

I don't want tax deductions to be given for more than 2 children. At that level we will actually have negative population growth.

Yes, families without college bound kids should pay property taxes and support education
in America. Not the same thing as asking them to support kids from Mexico. Education is the only hope for this country if it wants to continue to be an economic leader in the world.

[okie52]

Yeah, Landmines on the American border. That's a sound and thoughtful idea...

At any rate, if you look up information about Operation Gatekeeper in Southern California: increased border security actually increased the illegal population in Southern California; it backfired. For poor Mexicans (and other Latin Americans), the need to get into the States was just as high, but it was so much more difficult to get here (paying coyotes, finding more difficult routes, etc) that illegal immigrants tended to settle in the U.S. in stead of hopping the border back and forth.

Stop deluding yourself that this issue can be fixed so simply--it is just what happens when the 3rd world borders the 1st world.

I'll say it again: I am thankful that God loves me so much that he allowed me to be born a white male in America to educated parents. Thanks a lot, big guy!

Open borders work...and you are clever enough to figure it out. We've got 12,000,000-30,000,000 people here illegally to prove it.

You said our borders can't be secured...they can. And if the illegals jobs and benefits are removed...they'll leave. Really not all that complicated unless you don't want it to happen.

Even our southern neighbors have a better handle on it than we do.


So, what does Mexico do with their illegal immigrants?

Mexico returns 400 of 513 migrants found in trucks

Posted by MSNBC

TUXTLA GUTIERREZ, Mexico — Mexican authorities returned about 400 migrants to their native Guatemala Wednesday, a day after they and 113 other migrants were found hidden inside two trailer trucks.

Officials of Mexico’s National Immigration Institute said the 113 migrants still being held are from nations that don’t share borders with Mexico or are Guatemalan minors or women who require special treatment.

The 400 Guatemalan migrants were returned to their country in air-conditioned buses Wednesday, a stark contrast to the sweltering, overcrowded trailers where they were found.

The remaining migrants include 47 from El Salvador, 32 from Ecuador, 12 from India, six from Nepal, three from China and one each from the Dominican Republic and Honduras, as well as Guatemalan minors and women.

Initial reports suggested that one of those aboard the trucks was Japanese, but officials later said that he was in fact Chinese. “We have seen an increase in recent months” in the number of migrants caught while being smuggled through southern Mexico, despite the fact that “traffickers are charging increasingly high rates to move them north,” noted Juan Jose Gonzalez, the head of the nonprofit group Southern Border Movement.

The immigrants found Tuesday said they had paid an average of $7,000 for the trip to the United States.

Mexican officials stressed during a visit to the southern border state of Chiapas Wednesday that new immigration facilities and inspection points are being built to fight migrant trafficking and provide humane conditions for migrants.

Interior Secretary Francisco Blake Mora said “we are here to find solutions and increase safety, legality and respect for the border population and migrants from Mexico, Central America and other countries,” Blake Mora said.

The head of Mexico’s Immigration Institute, Salvador Beltran Del Rio, said the government is building seven new immigrant holding and processing centers in southern Mexico.

Imagine deporting illegals the next day.

Your parents being educated doesn't seem to have helped you. You need to do more studying on the issue rather than regurgitate some pablum you have ingested from an obviously ill informed source.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Which brings us right back to: Should families who establish and reside in a state legally subsidize families who do not?

State taxes have always been set up for the state as a whole. No family fully utilizes all the schools, roads, fire stations, museums, airports, flood control, recreation facilities, etc. They are they for the good of the state as a whole, paid for by its residents. Most states largely thru income taxes-- that it is very hard to determine if illegals lawfully pay.


I don't want to confuse you. I support school funding (elementary through college)
by taxes. I don't support illegals or their offspring receiving any benefits whatsoever.

I don't want tax deductions to be given for more than 2 children. At that level we will actually have negative population growth.

Yes, families without college bound kids should pay property taxes and support education
in America. Not the same thing as asking them to support kids from Mexico. Education is the only hope for this country if it wants to continue to be an economic leader in the world.

1. to be clear, these kids aren't from Mexico.

2. Supporting K-12 education and higher ed are two different things. Higher ed students are a select subset.


3. cleller and okie support subsidizing college education for in-state residents, and so do I. But it would be quite reasonable if a Joe Plumber & Son might object to such a huge subsidy with no direct benefit of their own.

Of course there are hundreds of examples of arguments over what should be covered by taxpayers. I live close to Sacramento, which needs a new sports complex if it wants to keep the Sacramento Kings. There is insufficient support for public funding of the arena, even though there are sound arguments how it benefits the whole city - not just basketball fans. Maybe Joe Plumber is a Kings fan and supports a subsidy there. I understand OKC taxpayers paid for part of the arena the OKC Thunder play in. And some of those basketball players who benefit aren't even U.S. citizens.

Cleller, taking your example of the taxpayer subsidized museum, it would be strange to charge out-of-state guests more than state residents (although we could - like Hawaiian locals who get discounts for many things).

but it would be downright bizarre to ask museum underage guests to prove their parents are legally present, before they can be admitted...what next, drug test parents and if they test positve for an illegal substance, their kid pays higher fees ?

And I don't think we want firefighters demanding everyone in a household prove legal presence before they put out a house fire.

But that's the thing about U.S. citizen college students who may have a parent who is illegally present. Not sure about Florida but in california the in-state subsidy for this set is pocket change to Joe Plumber compared to a significant amount (aggregate amount is billions) for the set of all students who receive in-state subsidy. And the fact is, these U.S. citizens are HIGHLY likely to stay in California, rather than move to their parents' homeland. Educating the best and the brightest of our citizens who are likely to stay in-state makes good economic sense.

[okie52]

1. to be clear, these kids aren't from Mexico.

2. Supporting K-12 education and higher ed are two different things. Higher ed students are a select subset.


3. cleller and okie support subsidizing college education for in-state residents, and so do I. But it would be quite reasonable if a Joe Plumber & Son might object to such a huge subsidy with no direct benefit of their own.

Of course there are hundreds of examples of arguments over what should be covered by taxpayers. I live close to Sacramento, which needs a new sports complex if it wants to keep the Sacramento Kings. There is insufficient support for public funding of the arena, even though there are sound arguments how it benefits the whole city - not just basketball fans. Maybe Joe Plumber is a Kings fan and supports a subsidy there. I understand OKC taxpayers paid for part of the arena the OKC Thunder play in. And some of those basketball players who benefit aren't even U.S. citizens.

Cleller, taking your example of the taxpayer subsidized museum, it would be strange to charge out-of-state guests more than state residents (although we could - like Hawaiian locals who get discounts for many things).

but it would be downright bizarre to ask museum underage guests to prove their parents are legally present, before they can be admitted...what next, drug test parents and if they test positve for an illegal substance, their kid pays higher fees ?

And I don't think we want firefighters demanding everyone in a household prove legal presence before they put out a house fire.

But that's the thing about U.S. citizen college students who may have a parent who is illegally present. Not sure about Florida but in california the in-state subsidy for this set is pocket change to Joe Plumber compared to a significant amount (aggregate amount is billions) for the set of all students who receive in-state subsidy. And the fact is, these U.S. citizens are HIGHLY likely to stay in California, rather than move to their parents' homeland. Educating the best and the brightest of our citizens who are likely to stay in-state makes good economic sense.

The students in question were born in the US to parents here illegally. While that makes them US citizens by our present archaic law, it doesn't necessarily mean states have to recognize them as residents. I would love for the law to be amended to cover only children of US citizens and eliminate this nonsense but that isn't likely to happen in the near future.

But many states currently give instate tuition and loans to students here illegally, an absolute affront to our laws. This is a subsidation of illegal immigration and further encourages illegal immigration. Add that to sanctuary cities, open borders, elementary schooling for illegal children and welfare benefits, jobs without verification of citizenship, etc... and there is little wonder
why we have up to 30,000,000 illegals in this country.

[Ton Loc]

Funny that in one thread people can complain about the strain that all the extra illegals put on our economy but take the opposite stance in another thread ----abortion.

Sure, you might say abortion is killing innocent people, but I've seen enough suggestions that outright say that or at least suggest it as a solution for stopping immigration.



BTW- where is Florida getting all the cash to subsidize in-state tuition without state income taxes?

[Midtowner]

Aren't those the folks who want to put land mines on the border while maintaining that human life is sacred? We're not talking about a consistent group of people here.

[okie52]

Aren't those the folks who want to put land mines on the border while maintaining that human life is sacred? We're not talking about a consistent group of people here.

Pay closer attention Midtowner. I am prochoice.

Of course, there are those that believe we are a nation of laws and support illegal immigration, sanctuary cities, instate tuition for illegals, benefits for illegals, etc..... No inconsistency there.

[okie52]

Funny that in one thread people can complain about the strain that all the extra illegals put on our economy but take the opposite stance in another thread ----abortion.

Sure, you might say abortion is killing innocent people, but I've seen enough suggestions that outright say that or at least suggest it as a solution for stopping immigration.



BTW- where is Florida getting all the cash to subsidize in-state tuition without state income taxes?

Do you believe the US has the right to protect it's borders?

Now the US could put up loud speakers and signs warning not to enter the US and they will be entering a mine field. Is that too barbaric for you? Are up to 30,000,000 illegals not enough for you to stop illegal immigration?

Property taxes usually pay for schools which means most illegals pay nothing.

[Ton Loc]

Do you believe the US has the right to protect it's borders?

Now the US could put up loud speakers and signs warning not to enter the US and they will be entering a mine field. Is that too barbaric for you? Are up to 30,000,000 illegals not enough for you to stop illegal immigration?

Property taxes usually pay for schools which means most illegals pay nothing.

Do you answer everything with a question? Did I say I was for illegal immigration? Do you believe illegal immigrants come here and make zero contribution?

Really, I'm upset we don't do a better job of using them. Besides, the topic is school tuition. Basically punishing citizens for the mistakes of their parents. (Sort of like abortion...)

[okie52]

Do you answer everything with a question? Did I say I was for illegal immigration? Do you believe illegal immigrants come here and make zero contribution?

Really, I'm upset we don't do a better job of using them. Besides, the topic is school tuition. Basically punishing citizens for the mistakes of their parents. (Sort of like abortion...)

You don't have to "say" you are for illegal immigration if you support subsidizing it.

[badger]

Property taxes usually pay for schools which means most illegals pay nothing.

A lot of people that don't own property pay zero also. There might be an argument that says that they pay property taxes in other ways, such as through rent. Fair enough. However, that leads one to ask, "Where do you think illegal immigrants live?"

If not through property taxes, you may argue that people who don't own property pay other taxes, such as income taxes or sales taxes. Fair enough. However, if we are still just talking about Florida here, remember that they don't have income taxes.

So, that leaves sales tax. People pay taxes in the states they reside just by buying hamburgers, gasoline, or other goods and services. Fair enough. But... don't illegal immigrants pay sales taxes too?

The argument cannot be that only families that pay taxes to the state deserve in-state tuition for the children. The argument should be that only families that can prove that they have been residents for a certain period of time deserve in-state tuition for their children.

I know I mentioned the FAFSA stuff earlier regarding tax protesters not being eligible for federal aid. Since that is based on income and Florida is not an income tax state, I am not sure if that argument would hold up in court.

The only one that would methinks is proving residency.

[Ton Loc]

You don't have to "say" you are for illegal immigration if you support subsidizing it.

Good luck finding where I say or write I supported subsidizing it. Still, why are you so upset? You aren't paying for it.

[okie52]

Good luck finding where I say or write I supported subsidizing it. Still, why are you so upset? You aren't paying for it.

Anything that supports, promotes, subsidizes, enables, etc... illegal immigration I adamantly oppose, whether that is in OK or the other 56 states. We all ultimately pay a penalty for it whether occurs in OK or elsewhere in the US.

Even in situations where children are born in the US to illegals, the illegals are benefitting by having their kids receive a free education and benefits. Yes they are US citizens, an unfortunate consequence of an outdated law that has become a great liability in this country. The parents knowingly took advantage of this law and have pushed the abuse of this law to the extreme.

There isn't any getting around the ultimate impact of this law until it is repealed but I do admire the states that make it as difficult as possible for these "citizens" to receive residency benefits.

Why aren't you upset about 12,000,000 plus people being here illegally? Are you for denying benefits to children of illegals that are not citizens?

[Ton Loc]

Anything that supports, promotes, subsidizes, enables, etc... illegal immigration I adamantly oppose, whether that is in OK or the other 56 states. We all ultimately pay a penalty for it whether occurs in OK or elsewhere in the US.

Even in situations where children are born in the US to illegals, the illegals are benefitting by having their kids receive a free education and benefits. Yes they are US citizens, an unfortunate consequence of an outdated law that has become a great liability in this country. The parents knowingly took advantage of this law and have pushed the abuse of this law to the extreme.

There isn't any getting around the ultimate impact of this law until it is repealed but I do admire the states that make it as difficult as possible for these "citizens" to receive residency benefits.

Why aren't you upset about 12,000,000 (I thought it was 30,000,000) plus people being here illegally? Are you for denying benefits to children of illegals that are not citizens?

I guess I don't care about them being here enough. I'm generally a lazy american and wait for things to affect me personally before I actually care. Then my care usually only stretches out to message boards where my complaints and thoughts are heard by people I'll never meet and yet, I somehow feel they need to hear my opinion. I take responses to my posts with a huge grain of salt and a smile knowing that most people would never say those things in a public setting. I rarely, if ever, make any real attempt at changing things that don't truly affect me. Immigration, legal or not, doesn't have much affect on me. Even if I see a real effect of immigration on my family - what am I going to do?

What are you doing besides complaining to a group of strangers who already have their minds made up and the only thing you are changing is how big of an a-hole they think you are?

[okie52]

I guess I don't care about them being here enough. I'm generally a lazy american and wait for things to affect me personally before I actually care. Then my care usually only stretches out to message boards where my complaints and thoughts are heard by people I'll never meet and yet, I somehow feel they need to hear my opinion. I take responses to my posts with a huge grain of salt and a smile knowing that most people would never say those things in a public setting. I rarely, if ever, make any real attempt at changing things that don't truly affect me. Immigration, legal or not, doesn't have much affect on me. Even if I see a real effect of immigration on my family - what am I going to do?

What are you doing besides complaining to a group of strangers who already have their minds made up and the only thing you are changing is how big of an a-hole they think you are?

All I am doing is supporting candidates that seek to end illegal immigration or the closest thing to it. I do write my congressmen to voice my opposition to illegal immigration but that is usually preaching to the choir. Other than that I all I am doing is complaining to a bunch of message board Aholes that seem to be just fine with illegal immigration.

[pphilfran]

I guess I don't care about them being here enough. I'm generally a lazy american and wait for things to affect me personally before I actually care. Then my care usually only stretches out to message boards where my complaints and thoughts are heard by people I'll never meet and yet, I somehow feel they need to hear my opinion. I take responses to my posts with a huge grain of salt and a smile knowing that most people would never say those things in a public setting. I rarely, if ever, make any real attempt at changing things that don't truly affect me. Immigration, legal or not, doesn't have much affect on me. Even if I see a real effect of immigration on my family - what am I going to do?

What are you doing besides complaining to a group of strangers who already have their minds made up and the only thing you are changing is how big of an a-hole they think you are?

You should meet Okie...more importantly you should meet his wife...

[Ton Loc]

All I am doing is supporting candidates that seek to end illegal immigration or the closest thing to it. I do write my congressmen to voice my opposition to illegal immigration but that is usually preaching to the choir. Other than that I all I am doing is complaining to a bunch of message board Aholes that seem to be just fine with illegal immigration.

So not much more than me.

Illegal Immigration will end when there is more money to be made on ending it than there is to letting it go on.

Also, I would have no problem meeting Okie...I have zero friends that aren't a-holes in one regard or another.

[okie52]

You should meet Okie...more importantly you should meet his wife...

We haven't had any gatherings in a while...

[pphilfran]

I was thinking the same thing...where has Profit gone?

[okie52]

So not much more than me.

Illegal Immigration will end when there is more money to be made on ending it than there is to letting it go on.

Probably true, particularly when you see the US Chamber of commerce supporting illegal immigration. But the people are overwhelmingly against it so we really aren't being represented are we?

[okie52]

I was thinking the same thing...where has Profit gone?

I don't know...haven't seen him post for months.