When Did The Dems Become So Anti-Business and Possibly Anti-Democratic?

[sappstuf]

Former House Speaker Pelosi and current Minority Leader Pelosi was asked a simple straight forward question.


Do you think it’s right that Boeing has to close down that plant in South Carolina because it’s non union?

Pelosi's direct response?


Yes

cnpeBTX-DMA

So she would rather them work it out and and become unionized, but if not... Well. Close them up!!

If only the workers in South Carolina could have voted...


The vote was 199 for decertification of the International Association of Machinists (IAM) union, 68 for retaining it.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/boeingaerospace/2009843246_boeing11.html

Oops..

So in Pelosi's world, she would use government power to close a business because its workers used their right to vote against having a union in an attempt to protect said workers from.. not.. having a union...

Is this normal, because I can't follow the logic?

[dwarthog]

Unions = money in Dem's pockets.

They'll continue to lock onto that teat until it's completely dry.

[yermom]

i'm missing in all that why they would be closing...

[Midtowner]

Not sure all Democrats are anti-business or anti-democratic. I'm not sure they've even really changed course from their traditional stance. The Republicans on the other hand have moved so far to the right that the contrast has appeared more evident.

[cleller]

If only they had such sharp oversight of who snaps up the government welfare and disability dollars.

[cleller]

i'm missing in all that why they would be closing...

This might help. NLRB say Boeing moved the work from Washington to S Carolina to take advantage of a cheaper, non-union plant, I think.

http://townhall.com/columnists/carlhorowitz/2011/05/07/nlrb_sues_boeing,_and_why_south_carolinas_loss_may _be_americas_too/page/full/

[KantoSooner]

Once you make the fundamental choice that the collective has inalienable rights above and beyond those of the individual and that the government must, therefore, exercise a central role in the economic life, not to mention all other facets of society, you are driven by an inescapble logic to ultimately deprive individuals of their economic and political rights.

I think Harry and Nancy took that intellectual step long ago.

[AlboSooner]

Once you make the fundamental choice that the individual has inalienable right above and beyond those of the collective and that the government must, therefore, exercise a central role in the economic life, not to mention all other facets of society, you are driven by an inescapble logic to ultimately deprive the collective of their economic and political rights.

I think Mcconnell and Boehner took that intellectual step long ago.


Truisms, how do they work?

[yermom]

This might help. NLRB say Boeing moved the work from Washington to S Carolina to take advantage of a cheaper, non-union plant, I think.

http://townhall.com/columnists/carlhorowitz/2011/05/07/nlrb_sues_boeing,_and_why_south_carolinas_loss_may _be_americas_too/page/full/

so they only step in when it's across the country and not outside the borders?

the deal Boeing ran in SC does seem shady though

[NormanPride]

I thought Pelosi was one of the loons? Why does she speak for all Democrats?

[sappstuf]

This might help. NLRB say Boeing moved the work from Washington to S Carolina to take advantage of a cheaper, non-union plant, I think.

http://townhall.com/columnists/carlhorowitz/2011/05/07/nlrb_sues_boeing,_and_why_south_carolinas_loss_may _be_americas_too/page/full/

They didn't close the old plant... It is still running. They just opened a new one in South Carolina to meet demand. I don't think a single person lost their job over this, only new jobs being created... Or trying to be created.

[sappstuf]

I thought Pelosi was one of the loons? Why does she speak for all Democrats?

Because she was voted as the House Minority Leader after losing her Speaker position and holds a significant position of power.

[AlboSooner]

I thought Pelosi was one of the loons? Why does she speak for all Democrats?

You're saying guilt by association is not a valid form of criticism? Whaaaaaaaat?

[NormanPride]

Because she was voted as the House Minority Leader after losing her Speaker position and holds a significant position of power.

This is mostly based on seniority and dues paid in the past, not ideology and performance.

[KantoSooner]

Once you make the fundamental choice that the individual has inalienable right above and beyond those of the collective and that the government must, therefore, exercise a central role in the economic life, not to mention all other facets of society, you are driven by an inescapble logic to ultimately deprive the collective of their economic and political rights.

I think Mcconnell and Boehner took that intellectual step long ago.


Truisms, how do they work?

Well, in this case, my statement was an attempt to encapsulate JS Mill and Hayek in less than 400 pages. Guess I missed, at least in your case.

You can't have government (in any decent system, representative of the will of the collective) supreme and at the same time have individual rights beyond the reach of government.
We made the decision, as a nation, to limit the scope of government and make the individual supreme. Thats what the Bill of Rights is all about.

Push comes to shove, I'm slightly more comfortable that the Republican Party understands this than that the Democrats do. It's not a definite call, though, as most in government tend to believe that, really, they should make the decisions.

Which was kind of the point.

[yermom]

what individual right has been lost here?

[KantoSooner]

The question posed was regarding an anti-business and anti-democratic (I changed it to small 'd' as that seemed to make sense) bias in the Democratic Party. Individual rights are strongly tied up in economic freedom and self-determination inherent in democratic forms of government.
More emphasis on collective rights = less on individual rights.

In this case the group of individual shareholders known as "Boeing" is losing their right to decide where to invest their money.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

i'm missing in all that why they would be closing...punishment for not going union...Duh! You're a smart guy. How hard is that to understand?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Not sure all Democrats are anti-business or anti-democratic. I'm not sure they've even really changed course from their traditional stance. The Republicans on the other hand have moved so far to the right that the contrast has appeared more evident.Far right in the United States is pro-business... wow!dayum!

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Once you make the fundamental choice that the collective has inalienable rights above and beyond those of the individual and that the government must, therefore, exercise a central role in the economic life, not to mention all other facets of society, you are driven by an inescapble logic to ultimately deprive individuals of their economic and political rights.

I think Harry and Nancy took that intellectual step long ago.It's been the stance of the Democrats throughout the 20th century. What change have they undertaken?

[KantoSooner]

I don't recall saying the Democrats had changed at all. Just that Reid and Pelosi had long ago crossed the point of no return in terms of antipathy to individual rights.

It is kind of like a Churchill quote that I'll butcher, "If you're not a socialist in your youth, you have no heart; and if you're not a conservative in your maturity, you have no brain." I don't think either Pelosi or Reid started out bad, they just got increasingly frustrated and dictatorial.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I don't think either Pelosi or Reid started out bad, they just got increasingly frustrated and dictatorial.As far as I know, they've been socialist since they've been in office. They are just more brazen about their positions, and willing to break more laws in achieving their goals.

[Midtowner]

Far right in the United States is pro-business... wow!dayum!

Pro-business to the point of being anti environment, anti-workplace safety, anti-worker and anti-union isn't necessarily a good thing. There is a healthy balance.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Pro-business to the point of being anti environment, anti-workplace safety, anti-worker and anti-union isn't necessarily a good thing. There is a healthy balance.Talk about parrots! Got indoctrination?!

[diverdog]

Far right in the United States is pro-business... wow!dayum!

And anti-worker...wow! dayum!

[Midtowner]

Talk about parrots! Got indoctrination?!

What's the last pro-environment, pro-workplace safety, pro-union bill overwhelmingly voted for by the Republicans?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What's the last pro-environment, pro-workplace safety, pro-union bill overwhelmingly voted for by the Republicans?I'm sure never, because the Republicans HATE clean air and LOVE workplace hazards. haha. If you could persuade any republicans that unions are good for business, and don't contribute mostly, if not only to the democrat party, I think they would be quite supportive. IOW, what a silly question!

[Midtowner]

I'm sure never, because the Republicans HATE clean air and LOVE workplace hazards. haha. If you could persuade any republicans that unions are good for business, and don't contribute mostly, if not only to the democrat party, I think they would be quite supportive. IOW, what a silly question!

Is it not true that some Republican presidential candidates have advocated the elimination of the EPA? OSHA? Who cares who Unions contribute to? You probably don't care who Kokh contributes to, do you? Do you think all of their stockholders are John Birchers?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Is it not true that some Republican presidential candidates have advocated the elimination of the EPA? OSHA? Who cares who Unions contribute to? You probably don't care who Kokh contributes to, do you? Do you think all of their stockholders are John Birchers?haha, you GO!

[REDREX]

Is it not true that some Republican presidential candidates have advocated the elimination of the EPA? OSHA? Who cares who Unions contribute to? You probably don't care who Kokh contributes to, do you? Do you think all of their stockholders are John Birchers?----Its Koch ----and I would bet Mr. Koch knows every stockholder

[Midtowner]

----Its Koch ----and I would bet Mr. Koch knows every stockholder

So what, exactly is the objection to unions participating in the political process? Are you against freedom of speech?

[KantoSooner]

----Its Koch ----and I would bet Mr. Koch knows every stockholder

Well done.

[REDREX]

So what, exactly is the objection to unions participating in the political process? Are you against freedom of speech?----Mr Koch is giving away his money----Does every Union member agree with where his Union's donations are sent ?

[KantoSooner]

What of public employee unions? Essentially, money is taken from the taxpayers and funneled involuntarily to the union who then uses the money to support only one party. That's always irked me.

[Midtowner]

What of public employee unions? Essentially, money is taken from the taxpayers and funneled involuntarily to the union who then uses the money to support only one party. That's always irked me.

Those are definitely a different animal.

[badger]

Some Boeing exec spouted off too much and basically said that they couldn't risk Boeing workers in Washington going on strike again and had to look at other options for production. Thus, the board did in fact have a reason (not saying its a good one, and even liberal-slant editorial boards are calling them out for it) for saying "no" to Boeing taking work to a "right to work" state.

However, it should also be noted that Boeing's South Carolina plant is up and running. So is Washington's. The board's decision has not stopped either from hiring and manufacturing. Demand for their jet is crazy high, even with some orders getting canceled due to the long wait for them.

[okie52]

Pro-business to the point of being anti environment, anti-workplace safety, anti-worker and anti-union isn't necessarily a good thing. There is a healthy balance.

There certainly needs to be a balance but that is hardly coming from the dems. Card check ring any bells? $60,000,000,000 exemption for ONLY UNION MEMBERS on healthcare regardless of income. Supporting illegal immigration is pro worker? Anti business to the point of the dem house passing Crap and Trade?

Yeah, the repubs certainly leans towards business but they are "balanced" by the dems anti business stances.

[soonercoop1]

Dems and Rinos will destroy this country to get their agenda and they have good start...

[soonercruiser]

Talk about parrots! Got indoctrination?!

You must realize.....
"If a Republican gets in the White House, millions will die!"
:hopelessness:

[Midtowner]

You must realize.....
"If a Republican gets in the White House, millions will die!"
:hopelessness:

Pretty accurate if you think about what happened under Bush II.

[soonercruiser]

Midtowner,
Are you a worker's comp lawyer?

[oudivesherpa]

I consider myself a moderate, middle of the road person. It appears to me that the Democrats have moved further to the left and the GOP further to the right and neither party as any room for a moderate. Just listen to Rush Limbaugh, he constatnly bashes moderates.
I would perfer a government that comprises and reaches consensus.

[soonercruiser]

Compromising on morals has really worked out well for the American culture, hasn't it?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I consider myself a moderate, middle of the road person. It appears to me that the Democrats have moved further to the left and the GOP further to the right and neither party as any room for a moderate. Just listen to Rush Limbaugh, he constatnly bashes moderates.
I would perfer a government that comprises and reaches consensus.Sheesh, what part of socialism seems to work real well, and keeps the economy humming?

[Serge Ibaka]

Compromising on morals has really worked out well for the American culture, hasn't it?

American culture is immoral? What compromises concern you so much?

Are you concerned about the gays or something?

[Midtowner]

Midtowner,
Are you a worker's comp lawyer?

No, but I know some good ones.

[soonercoop1]

I consider myself a moderate, middle of the road person. It appears to me that the Democrats have moved further to the left and the GOP further to the right and neither party as any room for a moderate. Just listen to Rush Limbaugh, he constatnly bashes moderates.
I would perfer a government that comprises and reaches consensus.

"Moderates" are the reason we have trillions in unfunded entitlements and federal mandates...not sure what further to the right you mean...does that include removing the current tax code, substantially reducing the size and scope of the federal government, and getting back to personal responsibility (among many others)....if this is further to the right then that means closer to American values and not this socialist/marxist progressive agenda...go to the library and see if you can find books on great moderates in American History...

[SicEmBaylor]

To answer the original question: There has always been a healthy skepticism of centralized banking and big business within the democratic lineage dating back to even before Andrew Jackson. This healthy skepticism of centralized banking was combined with an even healthier skepticism and distrust of centralized government. Unfortunately, today, that healthy skepticism has evolved into outright hostility for business in general while Democrats have entirely dropped their distrust of centralized government. At one point, democrats understood that centralized banking and centralized government were equally capable of exploiting the individual and threatening liberty.

It's an absolute shame that there is no longer a political party that is opposed to both centralized banking and centralized government.