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View Full Version : U.S. Marine Keeping It Real On Wall Street



marfacowboy
10/18/2011, 10:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Syshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys

badger
10/18/2011, 10:35 AM
Before you click on it... it's NSFW. There's some s-words in it.

I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for police in these situations. They are made out to be the bad people when they are just trying to do their job. I've heard them get screamed "PIG" at and oinking noises. I am sure they would much prefer to just be directing traffic or responding to burglaries or false fire alarms than this type of crowd control, but alas, someone has to keep the people in the streets safe from themselves... it is not safe to have big crowds of people blocking sidewalks or streets, because blocking sidewalks makes people walk in the streets, and people blocking or walking in streets is a traffic accident waiting to happen.

AlboSooner
10/18/2011, 10:50 AM
There is a parade of some sort, every week in NY. Ny in not new to large crowd of people in a daily basis. However, the cops are doing what the MAN is telling them to do, and when the MAN tells the cop to do something, if it's not done the cop takes it as an affront to his/her person-hood, and tazes you, kills you, humiliates you because you didn't obey a police order.

marfacowboy
10/18/2011, 11:57 AM
I figure a lot of these guys have some degree of sympathy and/or understanding with the protestors. Some of them look like they're thinking, "Ah, what the hell am I doing here? Will I be forced to choose a 'side.'"
Surely not all all police are bad guys. I have several friends that are cops, and they're decent men and women trying to do a good job. Some are certainly awful. But this Marine is giving them something to think about, and you can rest assured, there isn't one of them that wants to taze or spray pepper spray at a Marine vet. This man has surely already been through enough overseas.

BU BEAR
10/18/2011, 12:02 PM
Are we sure that he was a Marine? Color me skeptical of anything said by any participant in a George Soros-funded movement.

Breadburner
10/18/2011, 12:12 PM
Uniform looks a little small.....

sappstuf
10/18/2011, 12:21 PM
He is doing it wrong.. He isn't using 'consensus speak'...

MxupmU4cJOE

marfacowboy
10/18/2011, 12:25 PM
I'm told it is Sgt. Shamar Thomas from Roosevelt, NY, a 24-year-old Marine Veteran. 3rd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion....Reportedly comes from a long line of people who sacrifice for their country: Mother, Army Veteran (Iraq), Step father, Army, active duty (Afghanistan), Grandfather, Air Force veteran (Vietnam), Great-Grandfather Navy veteran (World War II).

http://tucsoncitizen.com/in-the-aggregate/2011/10/18/a-defining-moment-in-the-occupy-wall-street-movement/

KantoSooner
10/18/2011, 01:03 PM
I find it interesting that, with all the talk of 'beating people up' and 'attacking innocent people' all the cops I've seen have been largely like this crowd: standing around keeping people from roaming aimlessly into traffic.
The good Sgt, it would seem, was referring to another day, another time, when an incident had occured. Because it sure as hell wasn't happening there and then. If so, why the borderline psychotic rant? Certainly nothing being done at that time would have warranted the response. Doe Sgt Shamar go around filled with that sort of rage all the time? Directed at whom, why? (and there are some possibly good candidates, I'm just curious and a bit wary of letting him close to firearms).
The protesters have a right to free speech, but are also obligated to remain sensitive to the rights of their fellow citizens....which includes things like respecting other citizens' rights to use the public roadways and other fairly mundane duties owed each other. No matter how righteous their cause.
The Sgt was borderline deserving of a bracing tazing and a trip to the cooling off tank at the local jail. The cops exercised admirable restraint and were wise for doing so.

BU BEAR
10/18/2011, 02:32 PM
I'm told it is Sgt. Shamar Thomas from Roosevelt, NY, a 24-year-old Marine Veteran. 3rd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion....Reportedly comes from a long line of people who sacrifice for their country: Mother, Army Veteran (Iraq), Step father, Army, active duty (Afghanistan), Grandfather, Air Force veteran (Vietnam), Great-Grandfather Navy veteran (World War II).

http://tucsoncitizen.com/in-the-aggregate/2011/10/18/a-defining-moment-in-the-occupy-wall-street-movement/

Yes, that is who he says he is in the video clip. But, seriously, has anyone actually verified this or vetted the man at all? It may very well be that he is exactly who he said he is; but I am skeptical of everyone who is participating in this Soros-funded stunt.

Most Marines I know are a lot lower key about their service than was this guy.

jk the sooner fan
10/18/2011, 02:39 PM
keeping it real........real dumb

JohnnyMack
10/18/2011, 02:43 PM
Yes, that is who he says he is in the video clip. But, seriously, has anyone actually verified this or vetted the man at all? It may very well be that he is exactly who he said he is; but I am skeptical of everyone who is participating in this Soros-funded stunt.

Most Marines I know are a lot lower key about their service than was this guy.

Soros funding OWS is just the same as the Koch Bros. funding the Tea Party. Proof that the real power in this country isn't with its people, rather it's with the wealthy who use movements to direct their message.

BU BEAR
10/18/2011, 02:52 PM
Soros funding OWS is just the same as the Koch Bros. funding the Tea Party. Proof that the real power in this country isn't with its people, rather it's with the wealthy who use movements to direct their message.

I could not really care less about the Tea Party, the Koch Brothers, and whether or not the Koch Brothers fund the Tea Party. I am not involved with any of it.

However, I do note that the Tea Party has been around for a couple or three years and I am not aware of any arrests of Tea Party participants. I also note that OWS movement is a quite recent development and many of its participants have been arrested and engaged in anti-social behaviors. This should not be surprising to anyone considering the elements who back the OWS movement. Primarily George Soros who has made his fortune by profiting from misery (confiscated the property of condemned Jews during the Holocaust) and creating misery for others (crashed the British Pound and broke the Bank of England).

Soros' OWS children are merely doing their father's bidding by being destructive. They, like their chief benefactor, are little more than Parasites on Parade. They are most appropriately called the Flea Party.

But, my original question concerns whether the person in the video is actually a Marine. And if he actually was in the Marines, was he Honorably Discharged. Let's vet the man with the loud voice.

KantoSooner
10/18/2011, 03:00 PM
If you look at the long history of influence peddling in this country, a startling truth comes into focus. The key attribute is not money or numbers or anything other than commitment over time.
True, being well funded is helpful, as is being numerous, but if you stay on your message and stay in lawmaker's faces (and, these days, in the media), you'll be able to influence public policy. Think about things like 'Fair Trade Coffee', the movement against slaughtering (or selling for slaughter) horses, or the banishment of the 'N' word from common speech. None of these had 'big money' behind it.
And the access to commitment is open to all. Do the Koch Bro.s or George Soros have the ability to exercise more influence than me? Probably. Can they shut me up? No. And, if I choose to devote my time, I can exert a lot more influence than my money (or lack thereof) would imply.
It's a far more 'democratic' system than it's given credit for being.

XingTheRubicon
10/18/2011, 06:27 PM
My wackos are better than your wackos!!!!11!!!1!!!!

Caboose
10/18/2011, 07:06 PM
Can someone post the cliff's notes version of the video? The guy was too obnoxious to watch more than a few short segments. All I saw was a big black guy blathering incomprehensibly and some bored-looking cops standing around watching.

OhU1
10/18/2011, 07:25 PM
Just an overly emotional loud mouthed man. I don't care if he stormed the beach at Iwo Jima. A fool is a fool. I'm glad I don't live in a big city and have to listen to this attention seeking drama.

cleller
10/18/2011, 07:38 PM
Who is hurting anyone there? What the heck does he think he's carrying on about? Don't know his story, but while the video is rolliing, he's just another attention seeking loudmouth in love with the sound of his own voice.

He's a joke and a puppet, and doesn't know it.

usmc-sooner
10/18/2011, 08:59 PM
I call BS

soonercruiser
10/18/2011, 10:44 PM
Uniform looks a little small.....

That was my first thought, as a vet. Or, musta been a few years and a couple of hundred cheeze burgers ago.
A military vet, and a war vet would know better than to wear "part of the uniform" in such a venue.
Just doesn't make sense.

Just wondering...
Should I post a picture of my ribbons after 29 years in my signature , and shake them in your face?
NO!
:distant:

prrriiide
10/19/2011, 04:31 AM
I am not aware of any arrests of Tea Party participants.

That's only because stupidity and hubris are not against the law.

JohnnyMack
10/19/2011, 09:56 AM
I could not really care less about the Tea Party, the Koch Brothers, and whether or not the Koch Brothers fund the Tea Party. I am not involved with any of it.

However, I do note that the Tea Party has been around for a couple or three years and I am not aware of any arrests of Tea Party participants. I also note that OWS movement is a quite recent development and many of its participants have been arrested and engaged in anti-social behaviors. This should not be surprising to anyone considering the elements who back the OWS movement. Primarily George Soros who has made his fortune by profiting from misery (confiscated the property of condemned Jews during the Holocaust) and creating misery for others (crashed the British Pound and broke the Bank of England).

Soros' OWS children are merely doing their father's bidding by being destructive. They, like their chief benefactor, are little more than Parasites on Parade. They are most appropriately called the Flea Party.

But, my original question concerns whether the person in the video is actually a Marine. And if he actually was in the Marines, was he Honorably Discharged. Let's vet the man with the loud voice.

Funny you reference George Soros and where his fortune originated. Do some homework on where the Koch brothers money came from. The point isn't a "my side is right, your side is wrong". Try and see past that. The point is that money drives the message.

BU BEAR
10/19/2011, 10:14 AM
Funny you reference George Soros and where his fortune originated. Do some homework on where the Koch brothers money came from. The point isn't a "my side is right, your side is wrong". Try and see past that. The point is that money drives the message.

this never happened with the TEA Party:

September 18 – New York, NY: 2 Arrests
September 19 – New York, NY: 5 Arrests
September 24 – New York, NY: 80 Arrests
October 1 – New York, NY: 700 Arrests
October 5- St. Louis, MO: 10 Arrests
October 6 – Los Angeles, CA: 11 Arrests
October 6 – San Francisco, CA: 1 Arrest
October 6 – Santa Barbara, CA: 9 Arrests
October 7 – Sacramento, CA: 19 Arrests
October 8 – Des Moines, IA: 32 Arrests
October 11 – Boston, MA: 140 Arrests
October 11 – Washington, D.C.: 6 Arrests
October 11 – Chicago, IL: 21 Arrests
October 12 – Houston, TX: 8 Arrests
October 12 – San Francisco, CA: 11 Arrests
October 13 – Austin, TX: 4 Arrests
October 13 – Seattle, WA: 10 Arrests
October 13 – Portland, OR: 8 Arrests
October 13 – Gainesville, FL: 4 Arrests
October 14 – New York, NY: 14 Arrests
October 14 – Seattle, WA: 1 Arrests
October 14 – Denver, CO: 24 Arrests
October 14 – San Diego, CA: 1 Arrest
October 15 – New York, NY: 92 Arrests
October 15 – Minneapolis, MN: 1 Arrest
October 15 – Raleigh, NC: 15 Arrests
October 15 – Tucson, AZ: 53 Arrests
October 15 – Phoenix, AZ: 46 Arrests
October 16 – Chicago, IL: 175 Arrests
October 16 – Washington, D.C.: 19 Arrests
October 16 – Phoenix, AZ: 3 Arrests

It aint about Soros; it is just not a surprise that these sorts of characters are involved in a Soros-funded project.

sappstuf
10/19/2011, 10:22 AM
I am always uncomfortable with people in uniform drawing attention to themselves in this manner even when they served honorably while in the service. Wearing the uniform means being part of something larger than yourself and sacrificing something personal for the greater good.

To then turn around and wear the uniform for the express purpose of drawing attention to oneself is the exact opposite of what the uniform represents and that is exactly what he is doing. Plus he is trying to say that because he did serve in the military his view is more important. That isn't true.

His incoherent message and yelling does nothing but add to the bitter taste in my mouth.

I don't mind old vets wearing their uniforms, for example, those old WW2 vets at parades and such. But if you are going to wear the uniform you should wear it with the same pride, professionalism and military bearing as you did when you were active duty.

I would give the Sargeant credit for 1 of the 3, but that isn't good enough if you are going to continue wear the uniform IMHO.

TheHumanAlphabet
10/19/2011, 12:11 PM
Soros is a convicted fraudster...

BU BEAR
10/19/2011, 12:20 PM
That's only because stupidity and hubris are not against the law.

And luckily for you, neither is engaging in ad hominem fallacy.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
10/22/2011, 12:42 AM
Are we sure that he was a Marine? Color me skeptical of anything said by any participant in a George Soros-funded movement.The whole fiasco is another national disgrace.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
10/22/2011, 12:46 AM
I could not really care less about the Tea Party, the Koch Brothers, and whether or not the Koch Brothers fund the Tea Party. I am not involved with any of it.

However, I do note that the Tea Party has been around for a couple or three years and I am not aware of any arrests of Tea Party participants. I also note that OWS movement is a quite recent development and many of its participants have been arrested and engaged in anti-social behaviors. This should not be surprising to anyone considering the elements who back the OWS movement. Primarily George Soros who has made his fortune by profiting from misery (confiscated the property of condemned Jews during the Holocaust) and creating misery for others (crashed the British Pound and broke the Bank of England).

Soros' OWS children are merely doing their father's bidding by being destructive. They, like their chief benefactor, are little more than Parasites on Parade. They are most appropriately called the Flea Party.

But, my original question concerns whether the person in the video is actually a Marine. And if he actually was in the Marines, was he Honorably Discharged. Let's vet the man with the loud voice.VERY well said. Great post....sorry marfac, you've been outed.

marfacowboy
10/22/2011, 05:48 AM
VERY well said. Great post....sorry marfac, you've been outed.

I think it's been established he's a Marine veteran. Outed? What on earth are you talking about? I'd like to see either one of you clowns tell that man he was little more than a "Parasite on Parade."
There's so much anger in this country today, fueled by homophobic, misogynist loudmouths like Michael Savage. O'Reilly is another one. They just spew hate and vitriol toward anything that's different than they are. And now the left and many liberals are growing angrier. All we're doing is shouting at one another. Leveling threats and watching the country go down the ****ter. Too few people willing to talk rationally about solutions and too many that enjoy wagging and pointing their sanctimonious fingers at others.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
10/22/2011, 01:44 PM
You guys apparently want chaos and economic ruin, marfac. It's disgraceful!

marfacowboy
10/22/2011, 07:24 PM
You guys apparently want chaos and economic ruin, marfac. It's disgraceful!

Who are "you guys?" No one I know wants economic ruin. I run a corporation. Why would I want economic ruin? People want fairness and a more equitable system. Sure, there may be a few people out there that want a "crash," but no one with a family, especially a family with members that have systemic, long term illnesses and that need insurance, want ruin.

Caboose
10/22/2011, 07:29 PM
People want fairness and a more equitable system.

More equitable, meaning what? Fairness, meaning what?

soonercruiser
10/22/2011, 07:49 PM
"Code" for socialism, and redistribution of wealth.
Marfa, we will waiting for the report on how extra you will donate beyond your mandatory taxes.

marfacowboy
10/22/2011, 08:24 PM
More equitable, meaning what? Fairness, meaning what?

I put this into practice in my own company but giving all employees equity and a democratic voice in how we run the company. We discuss pay raises. Time off, vacations. We discuss the risks of opening new markets, taking on new products. We all agree to accept the risks equally. People are sick and tired of putting in ten to twenty years with a company, doing everything they were supposed to do, and then find themselves laid off when there's really insufficient economic reasons for the move. I worked for Fortune 100 companies and can't tell you how many times I saw people lose their jobs and insurance so a few EVP's could make bonus based on P&L. It may be legal, but it's a morally bankrupt way for you to conduct your business. It's greed. Despicable behavior.

marfacowboy
10/22/2011, 08:26 PM
"Code" for socialism, and redistribution of wealth.
Marfa, we will waiting for the report on how extra you will donate beyond your mandatory taxes.

A banal, predictable reply and false. I'm the President and COO of a profitable corporation that's put my views into practice within the capitalist system. I just try to be sympathetic to the plight of others and try to be fair to people. I put my ****ing money where my mouth is.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
10/23/2011, 12:43 AM
of course, marfac. You're VERY believable, haha

marfacowboy
10/23/2011, 07:19 AM
of course, marfac. You're VERY believable, haha'

That's really the only place you have left to go, isn't it? It's pitiful.

diverdog
10/23/2011, 08:02 AM
this never happened with the TEA Party:

September 18 – New York, NY: 2 Arrests
September 19 – New York, NY: 5 Arrests
September 24 – New York, NY: 80 Arrests
October 1 – New York, NY: 700 Arrests
October 5- St. Louis, MO: 10 Arrests
October 6 – Los Angeles, CA: 11 Arrests
October 6 – San Francisco, CA: 1 Arrest
October 6 – Santa Barbara, CA: 9 Arrests
October 7 – Sacramento, CA: 19 Arrests
October 8 – Des Moines, IA: 32 Arrests
October 11 – Boston, MA: 140 Arrests
October 11 – Washington, D.C.: 6 Arrests
October 11 – Chicago, IL: 21 Arrests
October 12 – Houston, TX: 8 Arrests
October 12 – San Francisco, CA: 11 Arrests
October 13 – Austin, TX: 4 Arrests
October 13 – Seattle, WA: 10 Arrests
October 13 – Portland, OR: 8 Arrests
October 13 – Gainesville, FL: 4 Arrests
October 14 – New York, NY: 14 Arrests
October 14 – Seattle, WA: 1 Arrests
October 14 – Denver, CO: 24 Arrests
October 14 – San Diego, CA: 1 Arrest
October 15 – New York, NY: 92 Arrests
October 15 – Minneapolis, MN: 1 Arrest
October 15 – Raleigh, NC: 15 Arrests
October 15 – Tucson, AZ: 53 Arrests
October 15 – Phoenix, AZ: 46 Arrests
October 16 – Chicago, IL: 175 Arrests
October 16 – Washington, D.C.: 19 Arrests
October 16 – Phoenix, AZ: 3 Arrests

It aint about Soros; it is just not a surprise that these sorts of characters are involved in a Soros-funded project.

How much has Soros funded? Just asking.

There were arrest of Tea Party activist but I think it was less than 50 total.

KantoSooner
10/24/2011, 04:01 PM
of course, marfac. You're VERY believable, haha

Do you have any reason to doubt what he says? I've worked for several companies over the course of my career. Ranging from a Japanese trading company with 16,000 employees and sales of $157 Billion a year to running my own 2 man start up.
During that time, I worked for one family owned corporation that was run by a 50-year-old philandering, 2-pack-a-day smoking, bottle of scotch a day alcoholic...who was also a genius. Even in that disfunctional environment, virtually all the important decisions were made at the lowest possible level of the company. And it worked well. Surprise, surprise, when you give people responsibility and authority and then cut them in on the rewards (how do you think I got the money to start my company?) it tends to work. We even voted to sell the company plane (which he wanted to keep so that he could smoke while en route) and it stuck.
Have the courage of your individualist convictions.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
10/24/2011, 04:54 PM
Marfac is a passionate promoter of socialism and anarchy on this board. That gives rise to doubts about any claimed capitalist credentials.

Caboose
10/24/2011, 05:22 PM
Marfac is a passionate promoter of socialism and anarchy on this board.


That gives rise to doubts about any claimed capitalist credentials.

Socialism and anarchy are not compatible. So unless he is retarded he can not support both.
And his description of how he runs his business is not socialistic at all. It sounds like it is based at the core on the idea of progress through cooperation, instead of via force. Now unless he promotes the government forcing every other business to run this way his method sounds fairly square with free-market capitalism to me.

King Barry's Back
10/24/2011, 06:33 PM
If so, why the borderline psychotic rant? Certainly nothing being done at that time would have warranted the response. Doe Sgt Shamar go around filled with that sort of rage all the time? Directed at whom, why?

Exactly how is this nut job "keeping it real"? And that doesn't look like Wall St, either. More like Mid-Town, but I can't see it very well on the video and I haven't been to NYC in years.

King Barry's Back
10/24/2011, 06:42 PM
I put this into practice in my own company but giving all employees equity and a democratic voice in how we run the company. We discuss pay raises. Time off, vacations. We discuss the risks of opening new markets, taking on new products. We all agree to accept the risks equally. People are sick and tired of putting in ten to twenty years with a company, doing everything they were supposed to do, and then find themselves laid off when there's really insufficient economic reasons for the move. I worked for Fortune 100 companies and can't tell you how many times I saw people lose their jobs and insurance so a few EVP's could make bonus based on P&L. It may be legal, but it's a morally bankrupt way for you to conduct your business. It's greed. Despicable behavior.

As any of you that have read my political posts on this board well know, I am pretty far-right winger, but I find myself agreeing with much of what marfac has to say here.

As the intellectual pillars of market economics have strengthened and become largely dominant over the past thirty years, some number of people seem to have taken "enlightened self-interest" as a license to plunder all that they can get.

I've seen too many otherwise fine folks just take joy in laying off formerly-valued employees during restructurings, and I've seen too many proselityzers of "free markets" guiltlessly cashing their bail-out and bonus checks simultaneously to lack sympathy for some of the goals of the OWS.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
10/24/2011, 08:08 PM
Socialism and anarchy are not compatible. So unless he is retarded he can not support both.
And his description of how he runs his business is not socialistic at all. It sounds like it is based at the core on the idea of progress through cooperation, instead of via force. Now unless he promotes the government forcing every other business to run this way his method sounds fairly square with free-market capitalism to me.anarchy can preced socialism. Pretty much everyone knows they are not the same. haha. Believe him if you want. You have a right.

Caboose
10/24/2011, 08:33 PM
anarchy can preced socialism. Pretty much everyone knows they are not the same. haha. Believe him if you want. You have a right.

Anarchy can precede anything. So what? You said he promotes socialism AND anarchy, which is nonsensical. If one wants socialism, then one would support more and more and more government at every opportunity, not no government. Why wouldn't I believe he runs his business as he describes? Do you have any evidence otherwise? I don't need you telling me what I have the right to do or not do.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
10/24/2011, 08:49 PM
haha..YOU GO!

You just DON'T REALIZE that you need me to tell you your rights.

marfacowboy
10/24/2011, 08:54 PM
I started the company in 2003. We raised $4 million in venture capital to build a datacenter and fund a pure start up. We had a half dozen or so committed professionals (and a couple of rookies) looking for a better solution, both for our people and as a product offering. We've only had one employee leave since our first day in business.
I'm telling you that if you give people equity (which is the only way real wealth is built) and give them a stake in how the day to day as well as long term operations are carried out, they'll put everything they have into the plan.
As for anarchism and socialism, anarchism is a system of decision making, typically within smaller groups, that involves consensus. I actually did some of my graduate work on anarchism in American Indian and indigenous societies. Socialism is an economic system where, classically, the means of production is owned by the producers. So, in a way, "Rush," is actually correct. We use democratic/consensus based decision making and since all of the workers have equity (albeit within a capitalist framework), it is, to a degree, socialistic. However, some people have more shares than others, although all can earn more, either via purchase or "sweat" equity/time served. The Board has ultimate control, but we're fortunate that the Board members are respective and cognizant of the views of all employees. The employees make it work, and the Board knows it.
All I'm claiming is that I have a case that clearly illustrates greater equity distribution and democracy works within the workplace.

Caboose
10/25/2011, 07:59 AM
I started the company in 2003. We raised $4 million in venture capital to build a datacenter and fund a pure start up. We had a half dozen or so committed professionals (and a couple of rookies) looking for a better solution, both for our people and as a product offering. We've only had one employee leave since our first day in business.
I'm telling you that if you give people equity (which is the only way real wealth is built) and give them a stake in how the day to day as well as long term operations are carried out, they'll put everything they have into the plan.
As for anarchism and socialism, anarchism is a system of decision making, typically within smaller groups, that involves consensus. I actually did some of my graduate work on anarchism in American Indian and indigenous societies. Socialism is an economic system where, classically, the means of production is owned by the producers. So, in a way, "Rush," is actually correct. We use democratic/consensus based decision making and since all of the workers have equity (albeit within a capitalist framework), it is, to a degree, socialistic. However, some people have more shares than others, although all can earn more, either via purchase or "sweat" equity/time served. The Board has ultimate control, but we're fortunate that the Board members are respective and cognizant of the views of all employees. The employees make it work, and the Board knows it.
All I'm claiming is that I have a case that clearly illustrates greater equity distribution and democracy works within the workplace.

I still dissent. There is nothing particularly socialistic about a business deciding to run their enterprise in the way you described. They key tenet of socialism is that industries are centrally planned and production and commerce is dictated via command from central planners, instead of via free voluntary cooperation. The idea of "the means of production being owned by producers" might fit in with socialistic system, but it might fit in with a capitalist system as well. What differentiates between the two is whether or not you had the freedom to decide or if the choice was made for you by some bureaucrat 1000 miles away that may not have any idea how your industry works. Your business model is being tried on the free-market of ideas right now, it might work and other businesses might voluntarily follow suit. It might fail and other businesses might see it as a lesson learned. That is capitalism.

marfacowboy
10/25/2011, 08:37 AM
I still dissent. There is nothing particularly socialistic about a business deciding to run their enterprise in the way you described. They key tenet of socialism is that industries are centrally planned and production and commerce is dictated via command from central planners, instead of via free voluntary cooperation. The idea of "the means of production being owned by producers" might fit in with socialistic system, but it might fit in with a capitalist system as well. What differentiates between the two is whether or not you had the freedom to decide or if the choice was made for you by some bureaucrat 1000 miles away that may not have any idea how your industry works. Your business model is being tried on the free-market of ideas right now, it might work and other businesses might voluntarily follow suit. It might fail and other businesses might see it as a lesson learned. That is capitalism.

Well, "yes," and "no." You're talking about state socialism. I'm talking about the basic socialistic principle of worker ownership. But yes, this can happen within a capitalist system, and in my opinion, is the solution to many of our woes in this country. It worked for indigenous people, it worked for the Manitos of Northern New Mexico in their subsistence economy and it works in cooperatives and employee owned companies. It's the most important tenant of socialism to move forward. I frankly don't know any leftists from my grad school days or even current academics that are proponents of state controlled socialism.

"If America could be, once again, a nation of self-reliant farmers, craftsmen, hunters, ranchers, and artists, then the rich would have little power to dominate others. Neither to serve nor to rule: That was the American dream." Edward Abbey

cleller
10/25/2011, 08:58 AM
A good point has been made that people work better and harder when they have a stake in what they are working for. Everyone should have to work to acquire what they have. You give somebody something (welfare) and they don't appreciate it, etc.

This small scale stuff is fine, in the sense that the employees came on board by choice, they weren't just ushered in and told to work. They invested in the enterprise. Like anyplace, America has lots of good workers that take pride in what they do, and lots of crap workers that don't care about anything.
The right to pick and choose on both sides is the difference between success and failure. In the wide spread socialism, the picking and choosing on each side is pretty much gone, and the experiment falls flat.

Take an electric coop: The employees work for the coop, which is the customers really. The paid employees don't own and run the company. They still know that if they goof off and do shoddy work, the "real" owners they are working FOR will can them. Then it will be up to them to find work to feed themselves. That's the way to motivate a better worker.

KantoSooner
10/25/2011, 01:25 PM
Okay, back in I get.

The threat of losing one's job is, no doubt, a motivator of a sort. And, in the final analysis, there is some percentage of people for whom that's the only thing that works. It is never the motivator for high performance individuals and it is rarely a motivator that produces excellent performance from the average person.
For those folks (the vast majority) positive motivation, such as not wanting to let their co-workers, or customers, down is far more productive.
It's a much more difficult dynamic to create and to manage/live within; but true participatory enterprises are much more durable, profitable and faster moving...as well as being far more pleasant places to work.