We are the 53%

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

http://the53.tumblr.com/

An interesting response to the 99%. Some of them are ridiculous (http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsx63s1iI91r4q8eoo1_500.jpg) and some of them are quite good (http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsxcx2BsBg1r4q8eoo1_500.jpg). I'm afraid many of you will agree 100%

Whats your take?

[Serge Ibaka]

Yeah, I agree with those guys: you can work hard and forge your piece of the pie!!!!

Oh wait, everybody already knows that, and it doesn't have anything to do with anything. Way to be ordinary and pointless while pretending to be novel, the53.tumblr.com.

:yawn:

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Yeah, I agree with those guys: you can work hard and forge your piece of the pie!!!!

Oh wait, everybody already knows that, and it doesn't have anything to do with anything. Way to be ordinary and pointless while pretending to be novel, the53.tumblr.com.

:yawn:
I took more of the "personal responsibility for ones own actions" interpretation, although I agree some of these are extremely ignorant.

EDIT: The more of these I go through, the worse they get

[TUSooner]

So some people took personal responsibility -- or are so young that they can only SAY they will. That's commendable, but is it remarkable? (Is it only 53%!?) Do those liitle "I got mine" anecdotes prove that people who criticize "Wall Street" oppose personal responsibility? Do they it show that none of the "99%" value personal responsibility? I'm thinking, "non sequitur." Meh.

[KantoSooner]

To be fair, there IS a very 'communitarian' or 'collectivist' odor rising from OWS. The notion of being entitled to a job, for instance. For the purposes of clear thought, it's always good to start from first principles, so I'll give the 53 credit on that score. But it's not really noteworthy.

[TUSooner]

To be fair, there IS a very 'communitarian' or 'collectivist' odor rising from OWS. The notion of being entitled to a job, for instance. For the purposes of clear thought, it's always good to start from first principles, so I'll give the 53 credit on that score. But it's not really noteworthy.

Well, if you put it THAT way, OK. :) <- I hate that smiley.

[KantoSooner]

Me, too. (Smiley hatred)

Also just for giggles: I'm rereading Hayek presently. How Keynes and 'Keynesian Economics' are still referred to and thrown around and the man who utterly intellectually crushed Keynes is relatively unknown and rarely taught in our universities is an interesting and suggestive thing. It's almost as though college poli sci faculties didn't really like his message.

[47straight]

If it's now de rigeur to poo-poo stories of people busting their *** and making it, then maybe we really are going down the ****ter.

[TUSooner]

If it's now de rigeur to poo-poo stories of people busting their *** and making it, then maybe we really are going down the ****ter.
I'd say if such stories are so uncommon as to be noteworthy we're in even worse trouble. Ironically, many aliens & immigrants -- legal and otherwise -- are better at butt-busting than lots of citizens who think they are entitled to all kinds of **** just for being born here.

[KantoSooner]

yep. Show me people who clling to drift wood for days in shark infested waters to make it to this country and then show me the human detritus inhabiting WalMart and you really wonder whether you should stop bitching about 'illegals'. Hell, we should just welcome the illegals and start loading up cattle wagons with our native born morons and shipping them overseas.

And, lest anyone take this as a serious suggestion, let me say that I'm only willing for this program to go into effect under a totalirian dictatorship of me.

[soonercruiser]

Wow, guys!
I agree with this thread almost 93%!
:encouragement:

[CrimsonCream]

"The Finest Generation" would be ashamed of us.

[47straight]

I'd say if such stories are so uncommon as to be noteworthy we're in even worse trouble. Ironically, many aliens & immigrants -- legal and otherwise -- are better at butt-busting than lots of citizens who think they are entitled to all kinds of **** just for being born here.

I'd agree with the second sentence. Many native-born citizens think they're entitled to whatever.

But I disagree with what's behind your first sentence. I think that stories of busting your *** and making need to be told and told often.

[Serge Ibaka]

I think that stories of busting your *** and making need to be told and told often.

Yeah, hard work RULEZ!!1. We all agree. Who could disagree?

But to say that good ole' Protestant Work Ethic! is a relevent response to our nation's strife or the Occupy-Everyplace folks--that's just missing the point entirely. It's erroneous.

That entire website (http://the53.tumblr.com/ and its general sentiment) is a red herring.

[diverdog]

If it's now de rigeur to poo-poo stories of people busting their *** and making it, then maybe we really are going down the ****ter.

How about stories of people busting their asses and not making it. I live in area where farm labor is made up of unskilled immigrant farm workers. Those people work harder than anyone on this board and none of them will make it out of poverty.

Yes hard work can make someone successful but it is not a guarantee or a formula. There are lots and lots of people who work horrible jobs and will never get beyond living pay check to pay check. In the end, luck has a lot to do with how people make it in life.

[badger]

An extreme sense of entitlement is bad, but so is an extreme sense of judgment.

Some people are forced to do things that judgmental eyes look down upon.

I stay sane in traffic when people cut others off and merge later than they should, reasoning that perhaps they have an emergency.

I don't hate on the Occupy Wall Street protesters, because some people are worse off than me.

I also worry that without changes to corruption in politics and business, more of us, including family and friends, might be in the same boat as those that cannot afford health insurance, mortgage payments or enough to feed their families.

So while it's respectable that these 53 percenters were not handed anything and worked hard to take care of themselves and their families, I still respect the fact that not everyone can, even if they want to and need to.

[diverdog]

An extreme sense of entitlement is bad, but so is an extreme sense of judgment.

Some people are forced to do things that judgmental eyes look down upon.

I stay sane in traffic when people cut others off and merge later than they should, reasoning that perhaps they have an emergency.

I don't hate on the Occupy Wall Street protesters, because some people are worse off than me.

I also worry that without changes to corruption in politics and business, more of us, including family and friends, might be in the same boat as those that cannot afford health insurance, mortgage payments or enough to feed their families.

So while it's respectable that these 53 percenters were not handed anything and worked hard to take care of themselves and their families, I still respect the fact that not everyone can, even if they want to and need to.

I am a 53% as well and those of us who work for a W2 are the ones who get **** on by both sides....the rich and the poor.

[CrimsonCream]

I still respect the fact that not everyone can, even if they want to and need to.

Nobody will argue against that. It is those that can but won't.

[BU BEAR]

How about stories of people busting their asses and not making it. I live in area where farm labor is made up of unskilled immigrant farm workers. Those people work harder than anyone on this board and none of them will make it out of poverty.

Yes hard work can make someone successful but it is not a guarantee or a formula. There are lots and lots of people who work horrible jobs and will never get beyond living pay check to pay check. In the end, luck has a lot to do with how people make it in life.

Why is it that large percentages of unskilled immigrant farm workers, most or all of whom come here illegally, do not make it out of poverty; but, large percentages of legal immigrants from Pakistan or India come here, operate a c-store, and do better than average?

Might I suggest that the decision to come here illegally has more to do with the outcome than "luck?" Does luck favor those of Indo-European heritage over those from Latin America? Or do decisions have outcome-determinative consequences?

[AlboSooner]

What's evident here is the propaganda wars between the camps that would make Stalin blush.

Class warfare has always been present in America since its beginning despite what the leadership says. This country started out of class warfare: monarchy vs common people.
Capitalism by definition gives rise to class warfare because at the center of this philosophy is not the quest to aid all people, but to maximize profits for a few. There's no escaping that. Not everybody can be rich. The economy can't just keep growing. The rich don't make the money in a vacuum and the poor in America aren't that poor. Greed is immoral. Is America exceptional? Well, so was Rome.

[Serge Ibaka]

What's evident here is the propaganda wars between the camps that would make Stalin blush.

Class warfare has always been present in America since its beginning despite what the leadership says. This country started out of class warfare: monarchy vs common people.
Capitalism by definition gives rise to class warfare because at the center of this philosophy is not the quest to aid all people, but to maximize profits for a few. There's no escaping that. Not everybody can be rich. The economy can't just keep growing. The rich don't make the money in a vacuum and the poor in America aren't that poor. Greed is immoral. Is America exceptional? Well, so was Rome.

Everybody knows that Jesus was a democrat.

[AlboSooner]

Everybody knows that Jesus was a democrat.

He was a friend of tax-collectors.

[diverdog]

Why is it that large percentages of unskilled immigrant farm workers, most or all of whom come here illegally, do not make it out of poverty; but, large percentages of legal immigrants from Pakistan or India come here, operate a c-store, and do better than average?

Might I suggest that the decision to come here illegally has more to do with the outcome than "luck?" Does luck favor those of Indo-European heritage over those from Latin America? Or do decisions have outcome-determinative consequences?

I deal with a lot of Indians and Pakistanis and I can tell you for certain they do not come here nearly as poor or uneducated as the latino migrant workers. Most of them come from some money and generally have a good education. So to compare the two immigrants groups is apple and oranges.

[BU BEAR]

I deal with a lot of Indians and Pakistanis and I can tell you for certain they do not come here nearly as poor or uneducated as the latino migrant workers. Most of them come from some money and generally have a good education. So to compare the two immigrants groups is apple and oranges.

I think I acknowledged that the comparison was apples to oranges when I correctly noted that most of the unskilled farmers in your example come here illegally. They also have a poor grasp of the English language for the most part. So, to review, the group you tried to hold up as an example of "luck" having a substantial or determinative role in an individual's economic outcome:

A. Came here illegally, a decision that shuts the door on opportunity;

B. Has a poor grasp of the English language, a decision that shuts the door on opportunity; and

C. Is unskilled labor, which also is a significant barrier to economic success.


It seems that even by the example you provided that decisions play outcome determinative roles whereas luck(either good or bad), if it exists as a factor, is not observable at all in the control group you proffered.

[Serge Ibaka]

I think I acknowledged that the comparison was apples to oranges when I correctly noted that most of the unskilled farmers in your example come here illegally. They also have a poor grasp of the English language for the most part. So, to review, the group you tried to hold up as an example of "luck" having a substantial or determinative role in an individual's economic outcome:

A. Came here illegally, a decision that shuts the door on opportunity;

B. Has a poor grasp of the English language, a decision that shuts the door on opportunity; and

C. Is unskilled labor, which also is a significant barrier to economic success.


It seems that even by the example you provided that decisions play outcome determinative roles whereas luck(either good or bad), if it exists as a factor, is not observable at all in the control group you proffered.

I think that he's saying it's decidedly unlucky to be born a poor and unskilled Mexican who cannot speak English (and without any access to American-jobs without crossing the border illegally); since nobody controls the factors of their birth, it would be foolish to disagree with that.

That said, I sure am happy that I was born a white, American, middle-class male to educated parents--this sh** is awesome! Obviously God wanted me to be more happy and comfortable than poor, unskilled Mexicans. Thanks a lot, God! I appreciate it, big guy.

[BU BEAR]

I think that he's saying it's decidedly unlucky to be born a poor and unskilled Mexican who cannot speak English (and without any access to American-jobs without crossing the border illegally); since nobody controls the factors of their birth, it would be foolish to disagree with that.

That said, I sure am happy that I was born a white, American, middle-class male to educated parents--this sh** is awesome! Obviously God wanted me to be more happy and comfortable than poor, unskilled Mexicans. Thanks a lot, God! I appreciate it, big guy.

I suppose the appropriate analogy is that you decide to immigrate to Poland illegally without knowing the language. You would find out real quick that your being white has less to do with your inability to achieve success than does your (a) illegal status and (b) inability [and refusal] to learn the language.

Nobody has any control over where they are born. That much is right and may be the only thing you did not miss in the above example. One does have control over entering a country illegally and refusing to learn the language.

Even if I agree that it is the "bad luck" of being born to non-white, non-English speaking parents that keeps the illegals from south of the border from being successful, then you still have trouble explaining how the Asian immigrants who come here with nothing and barely speak English, if at all, are successful within one generation or less. Well, the explanation is that the Asians learn the language and have different priorities than the illegal, unskilled farm workers.

It appears that "good luck" smiles on the Asian immigrants by forcing them to make better decisions. These better decisions, which are made as a result of "good luck," in turn, make the Asians more successful than the unskilled immigrant, illegal, non-English-speaking farm worker who is plagued by "bad luck," which forces him to not learn the language and make other poor choices.

[sappstuf]

I suppose the appropriate analogy is that you decide to immigrate to Poland illegally without knowing the language. You would find out real quick that your being white has less to do with your inability to achieve success than does your (a) illegal status and (b) inability [and refusal] to learn the language.

Nobody has any control over where they are born. That much is right and may be the only thing you did not miss in the above example. One does have control over entering a country illegally and refusing to learn the language.

Even if I agree that it is the "bad luck" of being born to non-white, non-English speaking parents that keeps the illegals from south of the border from being successful, then you still have trouble explaining how the Asian immigrants who come here with nothing and barely speak English, if at all, are successful within one generation or less. Well, the explanation is that the Asians learn the language and have different priorities than the illegal, unskilled farm workers.

It appears that "good luck" smiles on the Asian immigrants by forcing them to make better decisions. These better decisions, which are made as a result of "good luck," in turn, make the Asians more successful than the unskilled immigrant, illegal, non-English-speaking farm worker who is plagued by "bad luck," which forces him to not learn the language and make other poor choices.

Boom goes the dynamite..

I ran into a African(Can't remember which country), he was 22 years old a couple of weeks ago.. Learned English at night on his dirt floor. Came over here by himself about a year ago with no family or support structure to make his life.. He would miss a few words every once in awhile, but it didn't take long to see he was a very smart and driven young man. He said speaking english helped him a great deal in getting his visa.

Fortune favors the bold as they say.. He was a very impressive young man and I certainly wished him "good luck" after our conversation.

[BU BEAR]

I know from personal experience that my "bad luck" is the result of my decisions. I left a career in finance at a Fortune 100 to go to law school. Seemed like a good decision--get to do what I felt that I was called to do and the opportunity in the field was pretty good at the time.

However, the bottom dropped out of legal labor market for young attorneys at the point where I was about half-way through the degree program. I continued on anyway which caused me to continue to incur debt and forgo income. There is still no labor market for young attorneys. I am six-figures in the hole and the future is not very bright, but luck has nothing to do with my situation. My decision to finish the degree program rather than correctly assess the lack of opportunity in the legal field is responsible for my predicament. Luck is not to blame; the fault lies solely on my decisions.

[NormanPride]

My biggest problem with entitlement is that it breeds dependency. How many of these hard working illegal immigrants would be hard working if they were able to draw from welfare consistently?

[Ton Loc]

I suppose the appropriate analogy is that you decide to immigrate to Poland illegally without knowing the language. You would find out real quick that your being white has less to do with your inability to achieve success than does your (a) illegal status and (b) inability [and refusal] to learn the language.

Nobody has any control over where they are born. That much is right and may be the only thing you did not miss in the above example. One does have control over entering a country illegally and refusing to learn the language.

Even if I agree that it is the "bad luck" of being born to non-white, non-English speaking parents that keeps the illegals from south of the border from being successful, then you still have trouble explaining how the Asian immigrants who come here with nothing and barely speak English, if at all, are successful within one generation or less. Well, the explanation is that the Asians learn the language and have different priorities than the illegal, unskilled farm workers.

It appears that "good luck" smiles on the Asian immigrants by forcing them to make better decisions. These better decisions, which are made as a result of "good luck," in turn, make the Asians more successful than the unskilled immigrant, illegal, non-English-speaking farm worker who is plagued by "bad luck," which forces him to not learn the language and make other poor choices.

There may be some small truth in what you post, but really, no one has any factors/figures to back up any of these blanket statements. And you picked Poland as an example? Wasn't aware we shared a border with them. How'd those Asians make it over here with no money? Didn't the gold rush and the railroad building end a while back?

Besides, the illegals don't complain nearly as much as its made out. Regardless of if they can or can not speak the language, or if they anguish for the rest of their lives in America working 12 hours days for what we deem a pittance -> It is a **** ton better than what they had before.

I'd be hauling *** over here ASAP if I was born down south. Also, its hard as hell to illegally imigrate here from those "Asian" countries. You think if those Asian countries were next door to us they would still come over here legally? Its an easy answer - No!

And that's why the USA still kicks ***. We have a ton of complaints about our country, but compared to 99% of the rest of the world, we're still #1. Let's not forget.

Also, what the hell are all of you hard working people doing on your computers during the 8 hours of a day one would usually be at work posting on soonerfans.com?

[BU BEAR]

There may be some small truth in what you post, but really, no one has any factors/figures to back up any of these blanket statements. And you picked Poland as an example? Wasn't aware we shared a border with them. How'd those Asians make it over here with no money? Didn't the gold rush and the railroad building end a while back?

Besides, the illegals don't complain nearly as much as its made out. Regardless of if they can or can not speak the language, or if they anguish for the rest of their lives in America working 12 hours days for what we deem a pittance -> It is a **** ton better than what they had before.

I'd be hauling *** over here ASAP if I was born down south. Also, its hard as hell to illegally imigrate here from those "Asian" countries. You think if those Asian countries were next door to us they would still come over here legally? Its an easy answer - No!

And that's why the USA still kicks ***. We have a ton of complaints about our country, but compared to 99% of the rest of the world, we're still #1. Let's not forget.

Also, what the hell are all of you hard working people doing on your computers during the 8 hours of a day one would usually be at work posting on soonerfans.com?

I think you missed the point completely. :-(

[Ton Loc]

I think you missed the point completely. :-(

I concur. Ill make no excuses and ban myself from reading and replying to political threads from my phone.

[cleller]

I think that he's saying it's decidedly unlucky to be born a poor and unskilled Mexican who cannot speak English (and without any access to American-jobs without crossing the border illegally); since nobody controls the factors of their birth, it would be foolish to disagree with that.

That said, I sure am happy that I was born a white, American, middle-class male to educated parents--this sh** is awesome! Obviously God wanted me to be more happy and comfortable than poor, unskilled Mexicans. Thanks a lot, God! I appreciate it, big guy.

Don't forget also to thank your parents, or their parents. Sometime not long ago (most likely) they took actions that lifted them out of poverty. They worked harder, studied longer, spent less, did something to lift themselves beyond many around them. They did it so their offspring would not have to experience that poverty and fear. It wasn't an accident, or the government holding their hand.

[prrriiide]

I think most people are totally missing the point of the 99%ers. You can make a living, pay your taxes, be part of the 53%, and still be squarely in the 99%. I know, because I am.

The point is that there is far too much of the wrong kind of government involvement in the free market. We live in a country where the richest 1% have bought and paid for their political lapdogs. They in turn have made certain that the playing field is unrecognizably tilted in favor of the 1%. This is done through government intervention and policy.

We work hard and pay our taxes. We did what we were all told to do as we were growing up - don't go to jail, get an education, get a good job, contribute to society. The 1% have thanked us by destroying our 401k retirement funds, wrecking our kids future by de-valuing their 529 college funds, tanking the value of the biggest asset for most of us, charging ruinous amounts for basic health necessities, and tightening the labor market to the point that people with master's degrees can't get a job in their field. They climbed the ladder of success, with the help and mentorship of those that went before them. But instead of paying that help forward, they have pulled up the ladder after them.

It is through government policy and laws that they are able to do this. Policies and laws that they quite often hand a hand in writing or actually wrote in total. They bought their politicians, and then made sure that those politicians stacked the deck completely in their favor. Through legislation, these people get unimaginable tax breaks - both personal and corporate, favorable conditions for preventing the upstart of competition, and a Get Out Of Jail Free card when it comes to the largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world.

These people and the corporations they run are sitting on more capital than the GDP of the UK. Not investing it in jobs and projects as the Tea Party would have you believe, not creating jobs with it as the GOP would have you believe. That money is sitting on the sidelines, earning astronomical amounts in safe, long-term low-risk investments. The rich are getting richer, just not as fast as they would like. But one day of their long-term low-risk interest earnings are more than most of us will see in a lifetime.

And then they squeal like pigs that if their taxes go up, they won't create any jobs. And people believe the lie. But they aren't creating any jobs to begin with! If we are to believe that lower taxes create jobs, then why do we have persistent 9% unemployment coupled with the lowest marginal tax rates in US history? Answer: because tax rates have almost nothing to do with employment. If you need evidence of that, look to the 1950s when unemployment rarely broke 6%, yet the top marginal rate was over 80%.

Trickle down economics. It never really worked. And the 1% made sure it became percolate up.

The OWS and 99% movement is just saying that we are tired of being shat upon. They are saying "we did what you told us to do, now hold up your end of the bargain."


Don't forget also to thank your parents, or their parents. Sometime not long ago (most likely) they took actions that lifted them out of poverty. They worked harder, studied longer, spent less, did something to lift themselves beyond many around them. They did it so their offspring would not have to experience that poverty and fear. It wasn't an accident, or the government holding their hand.

You make a great point. However, I know for a fact that in my parent's case they would not be afforded the same opportunities in today's climate. And THAT as much as anything is why the OWS and the 99%ers are pissed off.

Some call it class warfare, and you're right. But since 90% of the population controls less than a third of the nation's wealth, guess who's been dropping all of the bombs?

[47straight]

If you ever claim to speak again for the 99%, please put an asterisk and leave me out of it.