aTm Faking Injuries?

[Sooner70]

There's an article in Houston Chronicle today about TTech accusing aTm faking injuries when their uptempo offense would get rolling. Some may say sour grapes, but recall when OU played aTm last year. It seemed that whenever OU's offense got in their uptempo stride, their stud on defense, Von Miller, would pull up lame. Others also. Watch aTm very closely if they're facing uptempo team & see what happens.

Of course, their players, coaching staff deny it.

This seems to be an emerging problem, though. Wonder if/how officials or rule making bodies will deal with it?

[sooner n houston]

I caught a little of that game, lots of laying down by aTm.

[pphilfran]

Instead of just sitting out one play make em sit out the series...

[MeMyself&Me]

There's not rule against doing it. It just looks bad when it's obvious that you are doing it. Right now, if they have to stop play for an injured player, that player has to sit out one play. While I will say that if you sub frequently, making a player sit out a play is not a big deal and makes the practice very easy to do. That said, I can't see someone doing it with one of their 'stud' players. I remember the Von Miller deal last year and the fact that it was Von Miller makes no sense to me that that was what was happening. Probably legit cramps... just looked bad with crimson glasses on.

As far as ruling it out, the only thing I can think of is extending the requirement of a player to sit out to be more than just one play. Other than that, you'd have to be requiring the ref to make a judgement call on whether he was faking it or not and that wouldn't be a good idea.

[AlbqSooner]

There is a rule against it. It is called 'unsportsmanlike conduct'. Problem is, there isn't an official with the cajones to call it.

[lexsooner]

If refs don't want to call it on the field or have problems making the proper judgment, can't they review the film after the game pursuant to an official complaint by the opponents? Then they can assess the penalties. Otherwise, there are no consequences and this conduct will continue.

[badger]

Some aggies tried to cry "real classy, tech!" at the booing, but I can only see the boos growing if Aggie gets a reputation of doing that... and if they try to continue that sh!t in the SEC, they might have drunk fans coming out of the stands giving players real injuries :)

[MeMyself&Me]

There is a rule against it. It is called 'unsportsmanlike conduct'. Problem is, there isn't an official with the cajones to call it.

Is this how you think the unsportsmanlike conduct rule should be interpreted or is this something that is clearly stated?

[badger]

OU fans are usually quiet and applaud politely at injuries, but alas, I could see that changing this year, not because A&M's leaving the conference, but because they were diving last year, especially if it's really obvious (aggies are not good actors at this type of thing)

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Steve Kragthorpe really took that technique of faking injuries and started using that against OU..He brought it from the NFL and Tulsa,aTm, both schools he has coached against OU, I've seen them use it against OSU and Tech..

[OU_Sooners75]

I watched the majority of that game.

Every series (after tech would get a first down) there was someone that was injured and stopped the flow of the game. For example, #41 on the A&M defense went down 4 consecutive series.

Now, I am not saying the kids weren't hurt or cramping. But I think something was going on seeing as everyone would come back in after about a play or two.

To #41's credit, they did send him to the locker room after the last time he went down in the second quarter....about 7 minutes before half time.

What should be done, is the NCAA should make a rule that states any injured player must sit out for the remainder of the series. And after 3 injuries in the same quarter must sit out for the remainder of the quarter. After 5 injuries in the game then they must sit out for the rest of the game.


I am talking about as a team, so if 3 injuries occur in the same quarter, then that one player must sit out for the rest of the quarter. If the team suffers 5 or more injuries in a game, then the injured player must sit the rest of the game.

I don't know what else you can do to curb the problem?

A&M did the same thing against OSU. And you can almost guarantee it will happen against OU and any other team that runs an offense that is fast paced and gets a first down in a series.


Obviously you cannot say that a player is not hurt. From getting a cramp to getting your air knocked out of you, these things cause you to stay down.

[Wishboned]

If the NCAA wanted they could even say it was for player safety. Not wanting an injured player to risk further or permanent injury.

[MsProudSooner]

The first time I remember seeing this in an OU game was during an OSU game in Norman. They could discourage this by saying that any time the game is stopped for an injured player, that player can't return to the game until after the next change of possession.

[Sooners78]

If refs don't want to call it on the field or have problems making the proper judgment, can't they review the film after the game pursuant to an official complaint by the opponents? Then they can assess the penalties. Otherwise, there are no consequences and this conduct will continue.

I just don't know how the refs would review that. Cramps can happen at any time, even when it doesn't look like an injury occurred. It would be the injured player's word against the word of the opposing team. There is no way to efficiently punish a team for faking injuries, except as a previous poster noted, the player should be required to sit out the entire series rather than just one play.

[StoopTroup]

On the other hand.....a kid that is really injured might consider getting up and to keep playing it he knew he had to sit out a series. I think you are gonna have a real hard time selling a series ruling. I can maybe see 2 plays though with maybe the blessings of the Trainer or Team Doc.

[badger]

I agree that there really isn't any way to throw a flag on an injury because football is so dangerous that you have to be careful with injuries.

That being said, by all means make players that stop the game sit out longer than a single play. Rather than having the time outta the game grow with each injury though (hard for officials to track), just making that team sit the "injured" player for a certain number of plays would work.

If a player goes down with an injury...

1- If there are less than two minutes left in the half, the team with the injured player must take a timeout.
1a - If the team with the injured player does not have a timeout, the opposing team will have the option of a 5-yard penalty or a 10 second rundown of the game clock.

2- If there are more than two minutes left in the half, the injured player must sit out four consecutive plays, or until a change of possession, whichever comes first.
2a- If an injured player has not sat out four plays or until a change of possession and attempts to re-enter the game, the injured player's team will receive a substitution infraction penalty and the injured player will be required to return to the bench until four plays or change of possession has happened.

Sound good?

Also, eff the aggies. We're all onto your gimmick. Give it up already.

[delhalew]

ATM will do it to us again. If we play LSU, they will do it. If you'll recall, Urban Meyer had no issue doing it to us.

[FtwTxSooner]

Go with a set number of injury timeouts you can take on defense when play isn't stopped for some other reason, like administering a penalty. Once you run out, it'll cost the defense some yardage.

[hawaii 5-0]

Football is full of judgment calls.

I can easily see players fake injuries to slow down the tempo.

If a player goes down injured, make him stay out till possession is changed.

5-0

[KantoSooner]

1. It's obvious that is what the Ags are doing. It was obvious in our game with them last year and I've noticed it in the 2 games of theirs I have watched this year.

2. Only an increase in the cost of diving will make it stop.

3. We, as fans, have no input to or impact upon the rule making.

What we can and must do is boo obnoxiously everytime an Ag goes down with anything less than a blood spurting compound fracture. At the very least it'll make the environment more hostile to the cheatin' bastidges.

<and, yes, I'm getting my aggie hate on early this year>

[badger]

I guess we are just going to have to score in one play on each drive. That way, there's no chance for injury fakeage

[BoulderSooner79]

I disagree that Von Miller was faking last season - he's the last guy they would want to sit out a play. But he wasn't hurt - he was cramping which is much more common than injury. Cramping is a symptom of exhaustion and means the other team is physically winning the game. So it doesn't seem right that the team getting whipped gets to slow the game down. I have no idea how to deal with it in the rules because anything too punitive will cause players with real injuries to stay on the field. In the case of Von Miller, sitting out a play for every cramp was probably enough since he was their best player. But coaches can and will designate lesser players that rotate anyway to fake it.

[rekamrettuB]

I don't know either but why not something like this: If you go down, you sit out 1 play. If you go down twice, 2 plays. Down 3 thrice, 3 plays. If a player is really getting injured either from cramps, etc, they might need to sit out more than 1 play if the injury is just going to reoccur. This would make a team have to rotate their "fake" injured players or it would better benefit the players if they really were injured.

[OU_Sooners75]

I don't know either but why not something like this: If you go down, you sit out 1 play. If you go down twice, 2 plays. Down 3 thrice, 3 plays. If a player is really getting injured either from cramps, etc, they might need to sit out more than 1 play if the injury is just going to reoccur. This would make a team have to rotate their "fake" injured players or it would better benefit the players if they really were injured.

make it a team thing...

Have the NCAA do something like:


Less than 3 injury time outs per game by one team:
Player that causes injury time out must sit for the rest of the series (or until change of possession).

3 to 5 injury time outs per game by one team:
Player that causes injury time out must sit out until the start of a new quarter.

More than 5 injury time outs per game by one team:
Player that causes injury time out must sit out for the remainder of the game.

The steps are to insure no player is playing with the potential of making a simple injury or situation worse by continuing to play.

[SoonerMom2]

A&M declared their buses were trashed but it turned out to be only shoe polish not anything from BEVO and buses were all cleaned before the team arrived back.

A&M officially on Twitter lied about that as well! Not going to miss them!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

There's an article in Houston Chronicle today about TTech accusing aTm faking injuries when their uptempo offense would get rolling. Some may say sour grapes, but recall when OU played aTm last year. It seemed that whenever OU's offense got in their uptempo stride, their stud on defense, Von Miller, would pull up lame. Others also. Watch aTm very closely if they're facing uptempo team & see what happens.

Of course, their players, coaching staff deny it.

This seems to be an emerging problem, though. Wonder if/how officials or rule making bodies will deal with it?

I say if they do that to us, we go "Longest Yard" on them. When they return to play, we run a play at the play acting person and get him in a dog pile and do some grinding and twisting on him...

[SoonerAtKU]

Say what you will about Texas, but I've never seen them do that.

OSU, A&M, LSU, Florida, and a few others, but never Texas.

[cvsooner]

Or pick up the pace even more. Call two plays in a row and run 'em even faster before they have a chance to dive.

[badger]

A&M declared their buses were trashed but it turned out to be only shoe polish not anything from BEVO and buses were all cleaned before the team arrived back.

A&M officially on Twitter lied about that as well! Not going to miss them!
Yup, read that a lot of media took the A&M's Byrne's word as gold and didn't question his tweet. Tech did its own investigation and while not condoning vandalism, said that the spray paint/poo on the outside of a single bus (not all of them) was actually washable shoe polish. The manure spread instead the bus? Fish bait. The Holiday Inn and bus reportedly drivers had it all cleaned up before the A&M admin even saw the vandalism.

Aggie just likes to be angsty, don't they? Boo hoo, we're going SEC so we are sooooooo scorned.

[mainline13]

There is a rule against it. It is called 'unsportsmanlike conduct'. Problem is, there isn't an official with the cajones to call it.

Cojones is the word you're looking for. Cajones are boxes.

Just to further your education, no offense intended.

[soonergirlNeugene]

Also glad to see A&M leaving. I've always appreciated the way they provided a counterbalance to Texas in their own state, but the past couple of years there has been entirely too much whining and crying coming out of College Station. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, aggots.

[AlbqSooner]

Is this how you think the unsportsmanlike conduct rule should be interpreted or is this something that is clearly stated?

I provide the synaptic spark, YOU do the research.:encouragement:

[MeMyself&Me]

I provide the synaptic spark, YOU do the research.:encouragement:

I don't have the time and I didn't make the claim. I did do a quick google when I first saw your post and didn't see anything that directly support what you said which is why I asked. Was an honest question. Not a flame.

[picasso]

You remember that time that Francione faked coaching?

Those were good times.

[GameWarden]

The first time I remember seeing this in an OU game was during an OSU game in Norman. They could discourage this by saying that any time the game is stopped for an injured player, that player can't return to the game until after the next change of possession.

Remember the play in the OU/tejas game when Travis Lewis and Tom Wort took each other out?? Holding injured players out for an entire series could end up hurting you more than players on the other team faking injuries.

[rekamrettuB]

Remember the play in the OU/tejas game when Travis Lewis and Tom Wort took each other out?? Holding injured players out for an entire series could end up hurting you more than players on the other team faking injuries.

That's why I'm saying make it different for multiple "injuries". If a player gets "injured" every other play then tey need to sit out longer than 1 play anyway.

[badger]

Make exceptions --- if a team calls a timeout then the "injured" players can return. That way, in a situation like where Wort and Travis both went down, we could spend a timeout to let them return (and oh man did Travis want to go back in, hehe).

On the other hand, Bird-man #55 looked pretty solid filling in at linebacker. Go Bird!

[fadada1]

referees constantly make "judgement" calls (holding, pass interference, blocks in the back)... would allowing them to flag malingering be any different?

[PrideMom]

Sour grapes

[cantwait48]

Football is full of judgment calls.

I can easily see players fake injuries to slow down the tempo.

If a player goes down injured, make him stay out till possession is changed.

5-0

this sounds great until our star defensive player gets a real injury in the final drive of the national title game and then shakes it off and cannot come back and the other team exploits the weakness for a game winning touchdown. I think if the player is complaining of a leg cramp for example the ref should be able to go over and pull on their leg to make sure that is really the case. Or if someone gets a shoulder stinger the ref should run over and punch them in the shoulder a few times, if the player reacts accordingly then you know if he was really hurt or not.

[I Am Right]

You cant legislate injury's.

[Sooner70]

Boulder79......You're certainly entitled to your opinion that Von Miller wasn't faking last year, but I contend that possibly he was. Probably only Miller knows. Why would a supposedly premier star in condition athlete have that many problems just when the Sooners were bringing it on uptempo and gashing the Ags? You watch aTm real close. When they're playing a conventional offensive team, this doesn't happen with the frequency it does with uptempo.

Now, I don't necessarily believe it's specifically coached, but anybody on the team can connect the dots that to break the uptempo's stride, this is one way. It's hard to question it.

Just for the reason you say Miller wasn't faking, I say he could be. Reason is, why not have your star fake it? It would bring less suspicion from the refs for the very reason you say. Surely, the refs would think in their mind, their star wouldn't fake it.

I've known a coupla High school officials & here's how I think it'll eventually be handled. Once an astute ref senses it's happening, he goes over to the coach. Let's him know he's got concerns. If he can't keep healthy players on the field, some of those holding calls that could be called just about every play will start being called on his team. The refs can put a stop to it & they're close enough to know what's going on. Certainly us watching TV aren't.

[BoulderSooner79]

Because even aTm coaches are not stupid enough to have their best player miss plays at a critical part of a game. Players cramp because they have worked their muscles at full output for too many reps and depleted their ATP system. The ags had not rotated Miller enough and were paying for it in the 4th. But what they were doing was taking the maximum possible time they could to get him off the field so he could recover enough for another play once he sat out for one. Cramps are not injuries, but are treated as such and there is nothing that can be done about it. The ags were making the best of a bad situation - using the rules to both slow us down and milk as many plays out of Miller as possible.

[Soonerfan88]

Never underestimate the stupidity of Aggie. Common sense tells you he wasn't faking it, but.....

[BoulderSooner79]

Technically, I guess he was faking if you agree that cramps are not the same as injuries. But I believe he truly needed to sit out a while until they subsided. He took his sweet time getting off the field to limit the number of plays we could run while he rested. But regardless of what folks think about the practice, it's within the rules.

[MeMyself&Me]

Just for the reason you say Miller wasn't faking, I say he could be. Reason is, why not have your star fake it? It would bring less suspicion from the refs for the very reason you say. Surely, the refs would think in their mind, their star wouldn't fake it.

There's no reason to hide what you are doing because it's not against the rules. So no reason to use your best player to deflect suspicion.


Because even aTm coaches are not stupid enough to have their best player miss plays at a critical part of a game. Players cramp because they have worked their muscles at full output for too many reps and depleted their ATP system. The ags had not rotated Miller enough and were paying for it in the 4th. But what they were doing was taking the maximum possible time they could to get him off the field so he could recover enough for another play once he sat out for one. Cramps are not injuries, but are treated as such and there is nothing that can be done about it. The ags were making the best of a bad situation - using the rules to both slow us down and milk as many plays out of Miller as possible.

^This

[rekamrettuB]

^This

Unless they were deeper there. The fall off between Miller and his backup may have been smaller than the fall off 'tween other positions. He came off the field a few times but, if I recall correctly, there were others doing it too. Otherwise, how would get back on the field with OU's up-tempo offense? If I'm OU and see Miller go out then I don't sub or give them time to sub again.

[FtwTxSooner]

You cant legislate injury's.

The NFL does it. Any injuries at that occur toward the end of a game forces a team to use up a timeout, or take a penalty.

[Partial Qualifier]

The first time I remember seeing this in an OU game was during an OSU game in Norman.

OSU's been doing this for years. Even before we had an uptempo offense.

[fadada1]

i think they're a bunch of pu$$ies.

[LVokie]

Doesn't have to be for a full series; why not just specify that the injured player must stay out until the next first down or change of possession, whichever comes first? If a defense is getting rolled by an up-tempo offense, it seems most likely that fakery would come on a first down (or second and short, perhaps). If the defense makes a play or two to get the opposition in a third-down situation and then wants to take a dive (thereby giving the offense more time to come up with something as well), fine by me.

[aurorasooner]

Aggie prez came out & said they don't fake injuries.
"One of the most disappointing things I observed during our game in Lubbock was the way the Texas Tech fans booed our injured players. Apparently, they felt the injuries were faked in an attempt to slow the game down. I was in the locker room after we won the game and can attest to the separated shoulder, dislocated elbow, knee injuries, and concussion suffered by members of our team. It was a hard hitting game. We don’t coach our athletes to fake injuries. We’ve never done it before, and we are not going to in the future." Their defensive depth must be incredible this year with all those nasty injuries he witnessed.
I don't know whether to believe Aggie or Sand Aggie about the bus deal, however it would've benefited both schools to to have swept this incident under the carpet especially if the buses were cleaned up before any aggie players witnessed them. IMO, Byrne needs to keep off the 'net and use official channels to complain.
I know the Meer-kat hurry-up O is a benefit for us, but personally I'd like to see CFB adopt the Pro type of play calling where you can only signal the play in once, and then the QB has to make the adjustments at the LOS. All of these spaz hand signals from 2 or 3 coaches on the sidelines or these ridiculous huge signs are imo BS.

[boomerinhou]

I was at the OU - A&M game last year and I saw the Tech and A&M game this year. A&M definitely was faking injuries during both games when the hurry-up offense was clicking down the field.

Don't know if any of you saw the Rams - Giants game on MNF a couple weeks ago. Sam was taking the Rams down the field in a hurry-up offense, and the Giants got caught faking injuries to slow down the offense. It was very obvious. Two players fell down. Here's the video:


http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=rams%20versus%20giants%20fake%20injury&tnr=21&vid=1280156370095&l=17&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fvideos%2Fthumb nail.aspx%3Fq%3D1280156370095%26id%3D45d37d5d1740e 34925441fb8b10c0cb3%26bid%3Df2H4BqnmEe1%252byA%26b n%3DThumb%26url%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.youtube.c om%252fwatch%253fv%253d5PgQULPRKLc&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D5P gQULPRKLc&sigr=11a7ijacm&newfp=1&tit=Deon+Grant+fakes+an+injury